The Watch - A Post–‘Game of Thrones’ Mailbag With Jason Mantzoukas | The Watch

Episode Date: May 24, 2019

We open up the mailbag to answer questions like how the finale of ‘Game of Thrones’ might look different if you were to binge-watch the series (13:25), the possibility of a fantasy-genre hangover (34:04), and what shows we're most looking forward to now that ‘Game of Thrones’ is over (52:14). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Jason Mantzoukas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It is the only place you can catch up and stream the newest season of the UK hit series Line of Duty, a cat and mouse thriller from the creator of Bodyguard that takes a probing look into police corruption. The show rules. Watch the first episode of Season 1 for free at acorn.tv slash watch and start a free 30-day trial of Acorn TV with the code watch. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I'm editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio today, I talked about Game of Thrones on Sunday for like an hour and a half. And then I talked about Game of Thrones on Monday for like an hour or change. And today on Thursday, I talked about it on Talk to Thrones the final episode for another hour. But I can't stop. And that's because Jason Mansukas is here.

The final word on Westeros belongs to you, sir. What's up, man? Let's break this down. I haven't talked. I saw you briefly while I think the season was on, but I have not talked to you. Yes, at a restaurant in Los Angeles that will not be named. I know. It was McDonald's on sunset.

Yeah, in the playland, in the ball pit, taking a dump. And I wanted to know, like, you are not on Twitter as a person. I am not. I don't know if you... I'm not on anything. If you like to log into the generic Twitter... I will look on Twitter if something I've done has, like, come out

and I want to see, like, what responses are. Like, crimes at playland. You know, like, so I... So I, like, in that way, yes. But, no, I'm not a social media person. So I'm not... I don't know the memes. I don't know what the chatter is online about all this.

I'll track, like, Vanity Fair articles or Vulture or stuff. stuff like that, but social media response to Game of Thrones is unknown to me. So you're like the first baby ever born. You have no idea what, not necessarily no idea what people think. The difference between me and like my father right now is negligible. Okay, that's great. We both have watched the show and that's about it. One of the things I think is so interesting about what happened this season,

what we're going to do today, we have a bunch of mailback questions that we'll go through. I shouldn't say that. My dad's like 100% on LinkedIn. He loves that LinkedIn life. That is like, he's waiting for your response. He's asked you to be friends on LinkedIn. Jason's going to help me with a bunch of mailback questions about Thrones and non-thrones topics. Great, thrilled.

And then Greenwald will be back next Thursday. We don't do a show on Monday because it's Memorial Day. Oh, yeah. And we get to chill. But what did you think of this season? Boy, this season was a roller coaster. For me, this season really was, I had, you know, it would be impossible. I feel like, and you guys have covered so much of this, both on this show.

on Talk the Thrones with Mal and Jason, and on binge mode, I mean, like, this is all such a, such well-trod territory at this point, but I will say, like, there, I cannot overstate how excited I was going into this season. How excited I was to be anticipating the end of something that has been such a wonderful shared journey.

You know, like, the idea that I've come on here and talked about it, I went on binge mode and talked about it, the idea that most of my dinners lately have been talking about the show, that's so rare. That's so rare and such a part of what, to me, felt like mass consumption television of the past, where everybody shared and talked about those shows, talked about the finale of NYPD Blue or the end of whatever,

those shows that were meaningful. And this... The finale of Becker? Yeah, man. Oh, Arlis, the end of Arliss? That was the first HBO show that I was like, I can't believe Arles is going out like this. What?

Arlis? But I felt like, so all that to say, like, I can't overstate how excited I was to get these episodes and how a little bit wary I was because I felt like, I think like a lot of us, like, ooh, this is not a lot of episodes. Even though some of them are long, it's still not that much cumulative time to land all of these storylines. all of these characters. And I think in some ways they did a good job and in some ways they didn't. Like it was a season of highs and lows for me. Like there cannot be like for me like one of the top five

all time game of throngs moments is the knighting of Brianne. Yes. Like of all time. Like it's an exceptional moment in the show. And then there are moments in the show like how on earth is Braun, master of coin and has High Garden. I don't understand. Could not even get a credit card.

Honestly, like it seems like so, some things seem like absolutely beautifully plotted out and executed so wonderfully. And some felt kind of slapdash and kind of a little bit fan servicey or a little bit, like you guys have talked about a lot, I think like the greatest villain of these, this season and perhaps the last season,

feeling not as compelling as previous seasons is just time, is just how condensed they were, how much things had to happen. Sometimes in like the idea that Brianne and Jamie have there, finally have their, they get to bang it out moment. Yeah. And then it's only within the context of one full episode

that they get involved, and then he rides away at the end. Yeah. It's so little time was given to so many characters. that we spent so much time with. And I think that that's actually one that for all the pods that we've done over the last couple of weeks,

and since that moment when Jamie leaves Brian, conceptions brought this up a bunch of times where he's like, how come Circe doesn't get more pregnant? If it takes months to get from Winterfell at Kingslanding, she just never seems more pregnant. But even with Searcy and Jamie,

it's like, was he there for three weeks? Yeah. And they're hanging out. You know, Brian and Jamie? Brian and Jamie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was he hanging out there for three weeks and they're together every night?

and he's just like, I don't know about this life, or was it literally two nights, one night with her, another night with her, and then the next night, that night he decides to leave. That's what it felt like. And that's the thing is, like, that's such a good point. Like, show Cersie getting more pregnant to show that time is elapsing. Because they are just jumping from place to place to place to place, main character to main character to main character.

We no longer get these kind of, we no longer get diverted into other little storylines or other little moments that are illustrative of character, more character development or whatever. I also felt like, you know, and I did. I really, there was so much that I enjoyed about it. There was, I loved, and I loved the watching of it, and I loved how emotionally relevant or emotionally excited it got me. It really, I was engaged in this season.

I was engaged in it positively, negatively, everything. And I'm like, it's still talking about it. still talking about it, and I love that we're talking about. I'm happy that so many things did happen, but they didn't feel right. Some of them didn't feel right. Some did. It just was, it felt rocky. Yeah, I mean, today we were talking about our favorite episodes, and Jason and Mal both said

wins a winner, and that made a lot of sense because of what you find out about John and wins of winter, but also the sweep of it. But I actually said that mine was kissed by fire, which is this, like, the fifth episode from the third season, and it's the one where. Jamie tells Brien his side of the Kingslayer story. Sure, sure. The bath. Yeah. But there's also, I counted it up, there's 25 characters in that episode. Yeah. It takes place in five different places. You have all this history being told about like the Iron Islands and when they tried to rebel

and what, you know, Barriston's telling stories to Jora and there's all this stuff with Rob and Talisa and the Carstarks. And it was this like this incredibly rich tapestry of a show. and I realized that the way that they told season eight, Cersi's not in two episodes. They don't even show what happens at Kings Landing. And like they changed not only like, it wasn't just even the compression of time as much as like the actual storytelling mechanisms that they used.

Yes. So like even in those instances, like there was a couple of like of the very few episodes in season eight, a couple of them felt like there was even wasted time. I know. Like we didn't like I wish we had dug in deeper. You know, I wish we had dug in, like, if you're going to, because they do, like, you're right. Like, in those earlier seasons, part of what's exciting about the show and part of what makes,

and what made us all obsessed with it was talking about the scope of it, trying to be, like, the number of times I had conversations with people that started out being about, I don't know anybody's names. I can't remember whose name is what. And how many, you know, like, we all watch it with closed captioning now, my whole friend group, just so that we can clarify. places and names and things that we wouldn't know because we're not book readers. We don't recognize them. Did you watch The Long Night with Close Captioning on?

Yeah. The Battle one? I did. All the close captioning was like, oh my God! It's crazy. I did not have any of the problems with the long night that people had. I thought the long night was amazing. I thought it was exciting television.

I was like on my feet, nervous to sit down. I felt like it did the best job of making me feel the, the overwhelming onslaught of the dead. Like the idea that the dead was going to win. But for one Hail Mary move they might be able to pull off.

Otherwise, this ocean of dead is just going to wash over this castle. Dothraki riding out and the fireflies and then all those lights getting extinguished. I just think that's going to be one of the indelible images.

And that's the stuff. That too was like the last time I felt like certain things like Milosandra coming back and lighting the fire all that stuff. There was a lot of stuff there that felt like paying off things that had come before.

You know, like it felt like, okay, now we're going to settle this. And certain of those things that you've been keeping track of, I really liked. Yeah. I was surprised genuinely surprised that by the end of season eight, as many of our main, quote-unquote,

characters are still alive. Yeah, I think it felt a little bit more TV. It felt more like eight. Not only did they have plot armor because you just really wanted them to be there at the end, but that they were all in the same place. You know, because like ever since the Ice Lake Battle, very bad plan, whatever you want to call it,

they've basically tied all these people together. And they all moved as like a unit. And even when they split up like John and Danny, or like John was going to ride down south, but Danny was going to fly and that's why she loses one of her dragons. Like they don't spend that much screen time apart. No. They're basically reunited right after that.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was an interesting, a couple of interesting. storytelling choices. I was surprised. Like, I feel like going into that battle, all of the conversation was, well, say goodbye to Greyworm, say goodbye to Brienne and maybe Jamie.

Yeah. Say goodbye to Tormond and or Davos. Like, say goodbye to Barrack. Say goodbye to everybody. Davas is like, I can't fight and live through three of the most brutal. Everything. And I mean, like, Davos, like, for me, one of my top guys. Yeah.

Like, I love Davos. Every, even in the final episode where, like, I think. He has one line and he's like, I'm not even sure if I'm, like, qualified to be here. Am I to vote? Yeah, it's great. I love it. He's killing it. But, like, arguably should have died. So many of these people, I think should have died. Yeah. And because the show has trained you to expect it, the narrative around all of them, at least my friends and I's conversations around it was, who's going to die, who's going to die. And then when very few people died, Barrick dies, who was great. And once Thoros of Mir is dead, Barrick, his days are numbered at this point. Right, and once Melisandra's like I've sort of like lived out my part, she walks off and dies.

Which I thought was great. Like I liked that death. That death felt like she came back, played the last part she was supposed to play and then dies. You know, I loved that. It seemed like, I guess it felt like, oh, I guess people aren't as vulnerable as in seasons past they have felt like, oh, anybody can get got, you know. And now not really. everybody seems kind of safe, you know. We'll get into some of our mail-out questions here

because Josh Nason has a really interesting cue here, which is... Don't you mean Nosh Jason? Nell bit. Do you think that the Game of Thrones finale will play better for those binging the show for the first time and does streaming binging now play a factor into how creative teams think about fineries? I certainly think that streaming binging plays a factor

into the way certain shows are made. Sure. The idea that if you're making a show probably for Netflix and you know there's a possibility someone's going to watch this in one night or two nights, you're kind of thinking like episode three doesn't need to stand out as much as it needs to make someone watch episode four. We got to keep them hooked.

But I did go back to seven before eight this season. And I was like, you know what? Seven was pretty good. A lot of cool stuff happened in seven. And I wasn't mad at seven and I didn't have any of the stuff that I think we're sort of talking about, which is the amount of anticipation that would have. Happen on Sundays where it's like, holy shit.

I can't even eat yet, man. Because I got to watch Thrones and then I got to like do 90 pushups and think about. And how much, and I'm sure you are way, you're getting it way more than I am, but like how many, once you have watched the episode and look at your phone, how many texts do you have from people that are like thoughts? Like, dude, and then like, or just specific lines or characters. Like I feel like to answer the mailbag question, I think the experience of binge watchers, will be just radically different on Thrones because I think this was a show that, like Lost Before It or some other shows, it has truly thrived because people had time in between episodes to talk about it, conjecture about it, theorize, read nonsense theories.

You had the juxtaposition of people in the book knowledge, people having book knowledge and not, and whether or not to share or not and all that stuff. all of that made this viewing experience, I think, pretty unique. Yeah. Like, and I don't think, I don't think that'll happen when His Dark Materials airs, which is based on a beloved series of books. I don't think that will similarly be beset by, you know, fan theories and, you know, like, all this kind of stuff on, like, how much this show lived on the Reddit threads and the,

the vulture columns and all this kind of recap culture. It felt like it was a living document. All the stuff you guys have on the ringer. Like just this season alone, you guys have at least five, if not more, dedicated Game of Thrones, like shows or whatever. Never mind all of the written stuff. It's wild.

And that, I don't know how, I don't think anybody binging it is going to participate in that way. And I don't think anybody binging it I don't think binging allows for this kind of... A friend of mine just was showing his son the Star Wars movies. Oh, yeah. And he was trying to wait as long between movies as possible. To show him what it was like to wait three or ten years.

Yeah. And also to be like, because in that time, he and I can talk about it. He and I are actively talking right now about what has happened in Empire. Because I have not yet showed him. Return of the Jedi. And he's living in a world where empire hasn't happened. Yeah. Which is pretty crazy.

Pretty great. And that, to me, is part of what's great about this show. What was great about this show was so many of the conversations being had, so many of the, how engaged people were with the theories and the surprising plot developments, the surprising character beats, all that stuff was allowed to sink in and really ruminate. People were allowed to ruminate it, both between episodes, the way. week between episodes and then the year to two years between seasons. Yeah.

I mean, and then, like I was talking a little bit just a few minutes ago about this episode with Kiss by Fire. And I was going back to watch it. And that's obviously the season with Rains of Casimir, the Red Wedding. And if you're binging that for the first time,

the compression between this episode, episode five, and episode nine, which is Casimir, is it could be as little as four hours. You could just blow right through it. But by that same token, And going back and watching it, knowing what you know now,

and this is what binge mode sort of articulated so well, is like all of Rob's decisions are that much more tragic knowing what's going to happen. Sure. So just him being like headstrong about this is who I want to marry, this is who I love, this is who I want to be with, and this is who I'm going to betray to try and make a run on Castorly Rock, which is like inevitably what leads to like the phrase and everything else that happens. It's, it can be read in so many different ways.

And that's another thing that I don't know that that many shows. have is the ability to kind of revisit them or look at them in different, from different perspectives. Sure. Well, and also I think like for people watching the series, you know, there are two different, up until I guess season, the end of season six, there are two completely different ways of watching it if you've read the books or if you've not read the book. Yeah. You know, like for, you know, for me, when the red, when Ned Stark is killed in at the end of season, I was shocked. Out of my mind. When the red, when the red, Red Wedding happened, my mind was blown.

You know what I mean? So many beats were so, and part of, and that's what was such a draw into like the immersive experience of this show and this world, such good fantasy storytelling. For I think book readers, even though they knew all this stuff was coming, I still think they seemed to me to be just as into the show, just as immersed in this world. They seemed to be enjoying it. they didn't seem to, it didn't seem to be like failing them. No, not at all. I think until we run out of books.

Yeah, and I think that once they decided to maybe stop, they left out a couple of major plot points of the books, whether it was like Yovrit, Lady Stoneheart and stuff like that, people started to get a little bit disillusioned with it. Bread McStuffin, great name here. He asks, keeping the time constraints roughly the same, what underbaked storyline from the series would you swap out and what would you replace it with to make it a more sound? That's a really tough one. I guess my first one is even though I love the character,

I think Braun is an example of somebody who was like, therefore, because people really liked Braun. That's it. He's in that show because he's like a fan favorite. Yeah, and you can see they kind of like get him out of Kings Landing for no real reason. Well, he can't stay in Kings Landing because he and Circe are the only people left in Kings Landing and those two actors can't be in the same room together. Because they used to be a couple.

Right. And now I guess they have some sort of view. Yeah, Kyburn has to be the intermediary. And then he goes all the way up to Winterfell. I love that Kyburn got shoved to death. I know. Dude goes out simply by getting shoved to the ground. A man of science.

I loved, it was such an afterthought. He like, he saves the mountain, like, from actual death and creates, like, and the mountain is just like get out of my way and just like shoves him to the ground and Kyberne essentially explodes. Yes. It's so funny. Did you, the Kligain Bowl, did you like that?

I thought it was fine. Yeah. There's a couple of things. Like, Klegine Bowl is a great thing to talk about. It's a great kind of like fan fan servicey kind of thing. I did end up feeling like the hound is

maybe one of my favorite characters in the show. And his story takes a turn where I almost feel like he didn't need to go and do this. You know what I mean? Like, it didn't feel necessary. Yeah. In a certain way, it didn't. I wasn't like, if he

doesn't have a final battle with his brother, this is, you're blowing it. It was happening because he was like, it has to happen. He kept saying over and over again, we know how this ends brother. Yeah, but it, and I guess, and I understand that like, you know, He's also there to illustrate a point for Aria so that she can walk away from that path of just continuing towards revenge. But, you know, I felt like in a certain way he had been not redeemed because I'm not sure that's what the hound needed was redemption,

but that he had found a different path, not so much of a person alone in the world anymore. Yeah. And so I was, I enjoyed it. I thought it was, I thought it was the, the fight itself was amazing. I thought the physicality of it was crazy to see the hound who's an enormous guy just get smacked around by the bottom. And almost get his melon popped, yeah.

If you watch the behind the scenes, the making of that fight is crazy. Yeah. It's really, it's pretty nuts from just a practical doing a stunt on steps with someone who is as strong but not a stunt man as the mountain is, It's really interesting to watch them actually block and figure out how to do this without hurting Rory, whose last name I'm forgetting, who plays The Hound.

Oh yeah, I forget his last name as well. Again, that's a good example of, I enjoyed it from the vantage point of I'm enjoying the show. But it didn't, when it was done, I wasn't like, yes. I wasn't like the way that when Aria killed the Night King, even though I don't know. How she got there. I don't know how she got there. I don't, well, you know what, it's interesting. We know how she got there because, remember in this episode prior,

she sneaks up on John at the Weirwood Tree? Oh, yeah. How'd you sneak up on me? That's them laying the groundwork for how she can silently get up to the Weirwood Tree without anybody noticing. Right. Right. But I felt like that was a victory, even though the Night King was turned out to be for me

a villain that was not nearly as compelling, simply because we didn't really, as you guys have talked about many times, we didn't really understand his motivation until just previous and then it was over, you know? Yeah, or whether or not it's like a cyclical kind of evil that gets recycled in the north over and over again or whether there was some sort of original sin that really, like, I mean, because the children of the forest sort of origin story with him

was really interesting that they never really revisited after all. And that is stuff that I wish they had explored or they had allowed someone else to explore. You know, like that's the thing where, you know. So Andy had like a slightly different response in that. Yeah. Where he was like, it's good or it's bad, but it's Bennyoff and Weiss's. And they...

I get that from a creator standpoint. I get that entirely. You know, and I know, I get why they didn't hand it off. Sure. You know what I mean? I wish they had simply because from where I sit, I would, and as a lot of people do, as I'm sure HBO would feel, I wish I had more episodes. Yeah.

Both from a story point of view and also because, I mean, I love this world. I'm enjoying this show. I'm enjoying these characters. But I agree with Andy in the sense that, like, I understand it's, it is very atypical for people that are that involved in creating something that is so beloved. And I don't know, at this point, is there any bigger show in TV history? No, I mean, you'd have to go back to, like, Sorkin handing off West Wing.

Sorkin did not hand off West Wing, you know, nor did Amy Sherman Palladino hand off Gilmore. Right. Like, these are shows that were taken away from their creators, right? So, like, that's a different situation altogether. So for me, I guess I almost wish they had... And it's not like ER where it's like we have this soundstage. Right. And we can just, like, cycle you guys through.

Recycle people in and out. It's like you've got to be in Belfast working nights for like six months. Yeah, building like, you know, Dubrovnik streets in a parking lot in Ireland or whatever they did. It's interesting. I, you know, it is. It's like, it's easy to sit here on a podcast and be like, there should have been more episodes. We should have had more time.

And all of that, I think, is true for us as fans. But there is also an element of they have successfully left us wanting more. You know, they have done a good job. They have not worn out their welcome. We're not all being, you know what I'm not doing right now? Being like, you know what? I didn't watch the last two episodes until like yesterday. That would have been.

Can you imagine? It's so hard to imagine a world like that. You know. But that happens to me. all the time with shows that I love. I just suddenly they're piling up on my DVR and I'm like, fuck, I got it. Yeah, I got to get through all these episodes

of Mayans. Yeah. Before you got to finish anarchy before you go to Mayans. You got to complete the cycle. Ben Gritz wants to know which performance on Game of Thrones was the most satisfying from start to finish. This is an interesting way of thinking about it. Great, great question. Huh. I mean, I will say

for me, I think for me Oh boy, that's really interesting Which before it's... I'm not saying definitively because one might occur to me differently But I think Jamie Lannister I think what he does

With what's his name? Nikolai Kostarwaldo What he does with Jamie Lannister From the beginning This kind of handsome, charming, evil For this malicious Prince Charming kind of character This kind of knight famous knight, but who has...

Golden-haired prick, kind of, yeah. Exactly, whose first, you know, major element is to push Bran out a window while he's sleeping with his twin sister, you're like, for his arc to end up where it ends up, is a, he has to thread a needle that is particularly difficult, you know, to sell us both, to sell us at each stage

of Jamie Lannister's redemption is, I think, pretty fantastic. Absolutely. On this show. I think unquestionably, Peter Dinklage is just doing top to bottom tremendous work. I just think sometimes they didn't give them enough to do. In terms of just what you see on screen, I think Macy Williams probably, like, it was the most

impressive. Only just because, like, when you go back, you're like, you are a child. She was like, 11 years old or something? And that just doesn't really happen where somebody is like, you take someone who is an 11-year-old actor and they're still really good at 19 or whatever. Yeah, and her character's transfer me. And she nails, she's not the same, she's not playing the same aria at 20

that she played at 11 or 12. Yeah, and she's not the same person in Barbose that she is in Winterfell, yeah, for sure. She's truly evolved and that I thought was, she does, you're right, that's an amazing performance. She's also an interesting person because with the exception of the hound, she is one of the only characters in the series

that is oftentimes alone. Yeah. She is oftentimes on her own, alone in the world, without a, you know, a lot of other people's storylines act as two-handers, you know, for all intents and she does not have that. You know, she has the hound for those first early seasons, but then a lot of it is her on her own, and that's very difficult, you know, to chart and build a character season after season that is changing and evolving with nothing but other people, always other people to bounce it off. goes, she goes from basically this tomboy hanging out at Winterfell to being Jason Bourne eventually. So that's, I mean, that's pretty impressive. Christopher John wants to know, would you be more excited about a lost sequel, a reboot, or a Game of Thrones sequel? And I guess we can get into also just like a more general conversation about like, are you just open for business on any Game of Thrones story they want to tell?

I don't know. I mean, I'm open to seeing. I'm open to watching. You know what I mean? Like I certainly don't feel fatigued. with this world. Now, if they were to dive right in and tell me, if they were to say, guess what,

the next series, it starts next fall or whatever, a year from now, and it's ARIA has gotten to the end of the world. I'd be like, oh, I don't know that I want that. Yeah. The idea that they're making a show that is, whatever, 500 years in the past or 5,000. 5,000 years. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm curious. Like, again, I did not know these books. I did not know this series. I'm not previously to this, I'm not a fantasy person. I love Harry Potter and stuff like that, but I never was a Lord of the Rings person. I never, I didn't get into deep fantasy stuff like this. So to find Game of Thrones and really love it, I'm open to that happening again if someone does a good job of building another. It's world building, you know, building another narrative that I find compelling with compelling characters.

Is there one, is there like a franchiser thing out there where you're, just like anything that has this under this banner I'm in, aside from Yellowstone. I will check out. Yellowstone. Oh my God. The collective Yellowstone universe? The shared. I would love that. Just in different national parks. Yep.

Yep. I'm trying. I will give any Star Wars a chance just because I'm 46 and saw, you know, a new hope in the theaters. Yeah. I lined up and, you know, I loved it. Did you watch like the leaked Mandalas? Florian footage?

I didn't. Well, that's the only thing. Star Wars is the only thing I will try and not watch footage of ahead of time. Yeah. I have some, it is just the nostalgia of my youth. I will watch trailers and spoilers and behind the scenes and I'll listen to podcasts, but anything else I like. Right.

Right? But Star Wars is like just you. I still, even though it has burned me so many, it has burned me so many more times than any of these other properties. And worse than. any of these other properties. I still give it every chance. You just hear that theme music and you're like...

And I well up and it's like instant, like it's a button for nostalgia. Yeah. So Star Wars I'll do, you know, I'm curious about Game of Thrones, whatever they decide to do. I know they're doing multiple things. Lost, I have no real allegiance.

I watched all of Lost and really for the most part enjoyed it, question mark. If they were to reboot Lost somehow, I have no... Here's what I don't want. I have no interest in those same characters at all. Yes. Right?

That story's done. Jack, Kate Sawyer, all that, yeah. But if you want to do another Dharma initiative, mystery island, blah, if you want to settle some of the, and figure out some of the stuff that we did, that Lost did bring up and never kind of fix, I'm into that if they do it well.

Perspective of the polar bear. Yeah. It's just, it's, it is a planet Earth style nature documentary about the space. Smoke, about the smoke monster and the polar bear. The smoke monster and Melisandra's smoke spin off. By the way, smoke and smoke, that's pretty great.

There you go. I like that. The new Whiskey Cavalier. They're trying to get it back, guys. Trying to get it back. Whiskey Cavalier. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we'll come back and keep talking to Jason.

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All right, Jason, we're back and this is a good bridge from Out of Game of Thrones into Moore Channel TV talking. It comes from Ryan Christopher Dunham. RCD? The culmination of MCU Game of Thrones and to some extent Star Wars at the end of this saga later this year that there is any chance for a public hangover

with regards to fantasy slash genre storytelling telling the pipeline obviously doesn't suggest it, but there could there be a resurgence in more realistic modes such as, well, he brings up Westerns, war films and crime dramas. I guess you could also be like, are we ever going to get like back to ordinary people? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Will we ever see like a thrill, like just a thrillers take off again? No, I think right now, yes, I think the answer is yes, we will. We're in all of this stuff, there's an ebb and flow to all of it, right? Um, And so right now we are in, I think right now what's happening is, especially in features, spectacle is what brings people to the theater, right? So because there is such a wealth of choice on your home TV, because your home TV is now 70 inches wide instead of 24 or 19 when I was growing up, because you've got this big screen in your house and because a lot of stuff looks good on that screen, it takes something.

pretty spectacular to get you to go to the movie theater. And so movies are now the, I think you're seeing, that's why we're seeing so much of these successes are the Marvel movies, the kind of big spectacle action movies. And it's the same thing that your friend's talking about with this kid, where it's like, there's this weight period in between end game

and now that Marvel's done, this part of it. Now we're just like, well, what happens next? Is it going to be fantastic for it? Exactly. And how are they going to integrate the X-Men and the Friends? Fantastic Four into the MCU as it exists currently and how to blah, blah, blah, blah. All that stuff, all that conjecture, all that kind of the din of fan participation, I think is what's keeping all this stuff alive for the most part is because it gives everybody something

to talk about, right? But you know what people really aren't talking about? A lot of the Marvel TV shows. Yeah. You know, those don't have the same narrative built around them. Those don't have the same kind of inventive. in them because they don't have, they don't share this massive spectacle. They are street level shows. And everybody's watching Mayans. Yeah, got to watch those Mayans. What are they up to the

Mayans? I think that it's like an interesting question from Ryan because, you know, I think that there's like a, it would probably be wrong to assume that any day now people are going to raise their heads and be like, you know what, man, I just, I just feel like I haven't gotten a really solid adult family drama recently. I think that we've passed that point and I'm as guilty of it as anyone and if anything I'm kind of even a little bit worried about my brain getting rewired too hard like where when I watch burning

I'm like holy shit it just really takes me a minute to like adjust to the rhythms of a non-Thanos piece of drama oh yeah and when you're watching stuff that you're like oh all the like allowing yourself to fade into something that is just all location-based, no CGI, no green screen, nothing being done in post, like just truly watching actors act in an environment with each other.

There's something that is quite compelling about that, that you can, that is tactile, that you can feel, the same way that there is something artificial about, like Amelia Clark's performance in the penultimate episode where she's deciding to, you know, burn King's Landing to the ground is truly, I think, a masterpiece of acting because she's running through so many emotions and she's allowing them to flicker across her face. But when you watch the behind scenes of that show, she's sitting on like a bucking bronco, like a motorized thing covered in green felt in a green screen room. She's looking at nothing.

She's looking at no one. And they got like what, like a second a day or ten seconds a day when they were recording? It is such a, it's so impressive to me. But there is something, I, you know, like I'm a big, I grew up loving indie films and like all the Sundance Fair of that era. And still now, I think there's still room for a lot of great, you know, small dramas, all what you're talking about procedural thrillers. They're just, they're being made on a smaller scale and oftentimes on TV. Yeah.

You know? I think you, like the thriller, I think what the, the itch that used to get scratched by those thrillers is now getting scratched for everyone by true crime podcasts. That's true. I mean, or like something where you find it on Netflix and you watch it in two days. Yes. And that's it. And you've processed it and it's done, you know?

And that's a bummer. That we, we won't luxuriate in TV shows much. anymore. So there is a really interesting question here, though, that comes from Alex Lauren who asks, what show from the past would have most benefited from the air of airing in today's Twitter and recap sort of culture or discourse, and which would suffer the most? So I guess the idea being, was there a show that seemed incredibly primed to have this kind of scholarship around it, have this kind of like joke culture around it, and also have like people talking about it from a week-to-week basis,

and are there any ones that would have, like, really, like, not been able to withstand it? I wonder. I wonder, I'm sure, I'm trying to think, I'm sure there are shows that failed that would have succeeded, had their fan base been allowed to congregate on the internet and bolster support.

I'm just trying to think of what the, you know what, I don't think it would have helped it, but I would have loved, had there been able to have been a dialogue, around the original Twin Peaks. Yeah. Because when I watched the pilot episode of Twin Peaks air on TV, on ABC, when it aired.

Yeah. Because I loved David Lynch. Because, you know, I was a nerdy high school kid who, like, watched, you know, in the movies. Yeah, and Blue Velvet, I think all had all come up by that point. And I was like, David Lynch made a TV show. And I watched it. And it was like a bomb had gone off. I was, I taped it.

I immediately made my dad come in and I watched it with him fully again. I was like, this is a thing. This is exciting. Yeah. I would have loved as a kid of whatever I was, 14 or 15 at the time. I would have loved to have been able to then open up my computer and just dive into other people talking about this. Yeah. Though, if you think people didn't like season eight of Game with Thrones,

season two, join me when it had some takes. Tough. Yeah. Tough look. Yeah. I would say X-Files, even though there's obviously like a huge Reddit, like, fan community around X-Files, I almost wonder whether X-Files done on a budget closer to Thrones or at least a budget that kind of like they kept in mind, hey, we don't have to make this a week-to-week procedural.

This can be like a grand conspiracy about these two agents who are wrapped up and- But it was still so much case of the week. And I love those case of the weeks. Oh, I love that stuff that's stuff that I miss on TV. I miss, there is so much deep, wonderful narrative storytelling going on, and it really is, like, the transformation the TV has gone through in the last 10 years is unreal. But I do miss transactionally those kind of procedural shows that were good. Like, NYPD Blue, I love. Yeah, I mean, that feeling of a bomb going off, I had that when homicide came on.

Yeah, great show. And that, you have to understand, like, when that came on after a Super Bowl. So most of America saw it And I think I had seen Like less than triple digits amount of things in my life at that time So you weren't really like I'm so over it

I know all this And then all of a sudden Barry Levinson is doing a handheld Gritty Verite drama with Andre Brower Oh my God Yeah and it was just like It was kind of like you're like I don't even have the vocabulary to talk about it

That was a great show that I remember being like This looks like what we all know TV looks like but is very different. Yeah. And that was, that's the, those are the, these are the first few shows that are making drastic changes,

you know, that are doing so at a time where they are, you know, really the, the first scouts for what is what we now recognize as television.

Sure. Homicide, NYPD Blue, um, West Wing, Gilmore Girls, I'll put in there. And then Sopranos, really, I think is Sopranos

and six feet under. And of course, Arlis. Arliss coming in hot. Dream on. Robert Wall. Dream on. Ben Ben.

Ben. Ben, just coming in on fire. Malick. I love you, Wendy Malick. I remember thinking Wendy Malick was the funniest fucking person. Yeah. Jamie Castillo asks, what's the best show you've watched you have not talked about on the pot over the last couple of months because of Game of Thrones now?

We mentioned Barry a bit. We talked about Veep a lot. I'm writing real hard for. For my favorite, one of my favorite shows of this year is Tim Robinson's, I think you should leave on Netflix. I think it is. Talk about feeling like a bomb's going on. Holy shit.

Holy shit. I think it is so fucking consistently funny. It is, it is a triumph of establishing a tone and following through on it over and over again. And it only gets funnier. And it has that brave new world feeling of like this can be 17 minutes. Yeah. I can watch four of them. I love it.

sketch and go. My only thing is I wish now, or I hope at a certain point, they release it as just individual sketches. Yeah. Because I want to be able to send individual sketches to people because I think that would be the right gateway sketch for them to get into the show. Yeah. And right now they're only offering a couple of sketches like that, which are great.

Fun Day one. Yep. And the Will Forte Airplane one. And they're great sketches. But I want to be able to send somebody the Sun Records. Their bones are their money Their money is their bones It is the show

I'm telling you Turn this podcast off immediately And watch all of I think you should leave It's quite a pallet cleanser for Game of Thrones It is really great I'm trying to think what else So the other ones that I mentioned this show But we haven't really talked about it much

Is I am in love with what we do in the shadows Yes Which is one of those things where when you hear about it You're like I don't know if you guys need to make a TV show out of that movie which was super enjoyable, and then you realize, oh, like, if you just do this right, this is just like an endlessly satisfying, hilarious show.

And, you know, they had a very sort of no-worthy episode a couple weeks ago where they, I won't spoil it for you if you... I haven't seen. I've only seen the first two. Yeah, and it just gets really great. Kroll shows up on it. And I just find it to be really, really, really funny. And then the thing that I've been watching a lot

as an actual palette of Clonsor for Thrones in is, it's right between, like turn your brain off and also like I can't figure out why this works so well but I'm obsessed with it is the society I don't even know what this is it's a show on Netflix okay the premise is group of like high school seniors are on their like senior field trip uh the buses come back from the field trip and drop them off they're in a small town and they drop them off in this small town the buses drive away and they quickly realize all the adults are gone like everybody in the town is gone except for them.

And the town is walled off by a forest now. And they can't, like, they can't get out. Nobody gets in. And basically everything from there is, not only do we have to set up government and a police force and figure out medical care and food, but also let's fuck. Yeah.

And party. Who's, is this a British show? No, it's an American show. It's like a couple of people from blockers are in it. A couple of, like, Pamela Adlin's daughter is in it. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then it's just like, it's just one of those.

things where as soon as you watch two, you're like, well... That's cool. Yeah, and it actually has some mild Game of Thrones stuff in terms of how surprising it is. Okay. So it's trashy, but it's really, really, really fun. Yeah, all right. I'm into that. Did you watch Barry this year?

I've not watched Barry. I've not watched Veep. I'm like, I'm out on so much right now. I have so much to catch up on, but I've watched all of Tim Robinson's show twice. I watched Anthony Jessel Nick's new comedy special, Fire and the Maternity Award, which is... so fucking funny and so good. That I also can't recommend enough.

Do you watch this stuff more like I'm watching it out of professional curiosity or out of like this is actually what makes me happy to watch like stand up or sketch? Some of both. Stand up and sketch. Some of it I watch because I have to because I have to have as like somebody who's works in comedy. I want to know what my peers are doing. What people, you know, I may not know.

I still want to be discovering new people or any of that kind of stuff. So some of it is just like checking out what's going on. But then there are certain people that like I think Anthony Jasselnik is just, bar none, one of the best working joke writing standups in the game. So I'll watch, I will make a point to watch any of his stuff immediately upon its release because I just think he's great. Have you found yourself kind of like intimidated to get started with like an hour-long drama recently? Yes.

Because I think that sometimes that... Killing Eve is that show. Yeah, that's the knock on effect from something like Kahn's is when your brain is like 80% thinking about like torment. Yeah.

And I know that there are a couple of shows that I'm going to be super obsessed with that I'm going to be like excited to get into and I just don't feel like I have the bandwidth right now because not only

am I anticipating and thinking about every episode of Game of Thrones. I am listening to every episode of The Watch talking about Game of Thrones, Talk the Thrones talking about Game of Thrones, binge mode talking about Game of Thrones,

a couple of other podcasts talking about Game of Thrones. You're reading about it. You're reading Joanna Robbins. I'm reading Joanna Robinson. I listen to one of her podcasts as well, the one she does with Dave Chen. I listen to, so I'm just, I'm so, I am like, as I'm sure you are twice as much, I'm like at the end of my capacity for Thrones.

Yeah. So I'm excited now to like give it to something else. Like I don't think I'll talk about Thrones for a long time until there's like news about it. I don't, I can't exactly. From now on it will just be like interesting news coming out about the prequels or the sequels or whatever. Yeah. But I won't, I don't think I will at all engage in this level of discourse with people about it. Like if you checked Reddit since?

No. No. No. Yeah. And I don't, and I'm not a big Reddit person. person anyway, but I used to check Reddit when I'm going to... Let me spoil for you. Those guys aren't taking it well. Yeah. When active

things were, when active theories were afoot. Yeah. You know, like, because I didn't, again, like, I didn't know about R plus L equals J. I didn't know about all that stuff. And so to read stuff like that was made me enjoy the show more. So no, I'm excited.

Oh, I'm excited for the thing, I got to watch Killing Eve. I'm beyond excited for Fleabag season two, which I'm like as a full-on obsessive for season one. And everybody's saying this is even better. So I'm very excited for that. I'm trying to think what else I've been watching.

Well, even beyond what you're watching. Yellowstone Season 2. Oh, here's what it is. It's all about Deadwood the movie. That's all I'm here to talk about is Deadwood the movie. Let's talk about it. I cannot wait for this. I'm re-watching all of Deadwood.

That's what I am doing right now. The thing that we don't talk about enough is that Deadwood's the best show ever made. Best show. I'm just about to finish season one again. and I'm not kidding, it's exceptional television. That's probably the best, I put that up against Wire Season 3 is like the best season. It's unreal.

It is so good. Every piece, every supporting player, everybody is so well drawn. Did you read the Ola Fan interview in Rolling Stone? No. Where he's just like, I didn't know that like they were getting pages day of. Oh, not just pages, like monologues day off. Huge monologues.

Miltch would rewrite the day of. in some sort of, you know, drug-induced fever dream, you know. I feel like I lost $80,000 on the preakness. You feel like literally. You know what I mean? Like crazy. Like betting crazily on games and horse racing and losing all of his money, making all of the money. I mean, like we talked about Milch on this podcast before.

But like the idea that Milch's career begins by submitting a spec script for Hill Street Blues, which gets made into an episode, which we. an Emmy. He goes from unemployed writer to Emmy winning writer with the same script. That's crazy. Yeah, that's unheard of. It's unhurt. Like, Milch is like an unparalleled TV writer, I think.

I just, he is very exciting to me, and it's heartbreaking to hear that he has Alzheimer's now and is really suffering from it. That is just, that breaks my heart. It makes the movie even more poignant in some ways. Yeah. I'm so glad. I'm so glad that he was able to I hope, I mean, I don't know, I'm selfishly, I want it for me,

but I hope for him this kind of puts this thing to bed because I know that he felt like he said before that he didn't get to finish his story. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Speaking of Deadwood, Brandon McShane wanted to know which HBO trailer promoted during the Game of Thrones final season are you most hyped for?

Which show are you most hyped for to come back, aside from Deadwood, I guess. Deadwood, number one. I don't know. I'm pretty, I'm genuinely curious about Euphoria. Yeah. It looks gorgeous. I think Zendaya is like, I find her very interesting and compelling in the things I've seen her in. So I'm curious what that's like.

I'm just trying to get myself in peak condition for succession, righteous gemstones. Yeah, that's right. Oh, righteous gemstones. I mean, you know, because I think those guys are the most interesting people, I think, working in comedy. Yeah. In TV comedy right now, I think Danny and Jody and like all David Gordon Green. the guys that make all those vice principals and eastbound, like those are, I think, those have been some of my favorite comedies.

So I'm excited to see what that is. And then they've got John Goodman in the mix. Come on, you're telling me there's a Danny McBride John Goodman show? That's everything. Are you looking forward to Succession Season 2? Yeah, I am. Although, you know, I'm like, I should be looking forward to it more. Again, I think this is, I got, Thrones has to get out of the way.

Once Thrones gets out of the way, I'm going to be more excited about a couple of these things. What are you feeling about Watchmen? I'm so curious. Because I'm diehard Watchman comic book fan or a graphic novel fan. Love. The movie in some ways, because a very faithful adaptation

turns out to be kind of lifeless. Yeah. But I'm curious. I like I like the way it looks. I love the cast. I think they cast great people. So I don't know. I'm willing to give it a, I'm certainly willing to give it a shot,

and I actually have high hopes for it. I think Damon Lindeloff is doing, is playing with interesting ideas and interesting concepts and is always, his sandbox is always someplace that I'm interested to be. So I'm curious. Just because, like, I think, by all accounts, what happens a lot with these, like,

I want to take this property. And then there's like this initial, like, but what if I could just, like, play in the sandbox or what if I could put my spin on it? And Damon's been so articulate about, I want to remix this. Yeah. I'm using some of the same notes, but I'm playing a different song, all that stuff.

Well, what's interesting now, I think, is we are starting to, and this gets back to a question that came earlier, like, we are now starting to, we've been consumed with remake culture, reboot culture, prequel culture, like, everything has to relate, everything has to be a redo of a thing we already know, or it has to have, like, title awareness for an audience, right? And so far, in the way that that's been executed, is to somehow try and recreate the thing that came before, right? Like Magnum PI now is Magnum PI then, blah, blah, blah. And I think what we're seeing now is if we are having a fatigue, it is almost in this way in that I think now people are taking these properties and not feeling beholden to being faithful to them. Yeah. But taking them as kind of jumping off points, inspiration to tell other. stories, but that they can still have that name. They still get to call it the Watchmen.

Well, that's kind of... And that's wild. Yeah. I mean, that's sort of... You were talking about Star Wars earlier and you're kind of like your weakness for just like the font in your inn. Oh my God. But, you know, I feel like we kind of had these three movies, these three Kylo Ray movies. And, you know,

even... I love the Ryan Johnson one. Love. But I still think that there's an... I think it's unquestionably beloved, right? Is the internet not like the Ryan Johnson? Again, I'm not on Reddit very much. There are no petitions whatsoever to have it be made immediately. You know what I'm petitioning for. Zach Snyder's cut of The Last Jedi.

And Ryan Johnson's cut of Justice Lee. Ryan Justin's cut of Justice League would rule. But in a lot of ways, these three Star Wars movies were essentially more about saying goodbye to the original Star Wars movies than they were about like, what if there was this totally new story that wasn't about a rebellion and an empire? The Mandalorian is so interesting to me. That's why I'm genuinely excited by The Mandalorian. And listen, what I am nervous about and scared of is that all of television and movies just is titles and shared universes. You know, that makes me genuinely nervous. Like, I want there to be successions.

I want there to be original ideas that are brought to life. I want there to be, even though I think it is so far ultimately unsuccessful, I want Westworlds to, I want HBO to be pouring money into. making Westworld, right? I mean, I know Westworld is not an original idea. I know it's based on a... They looked like they actually cut bait and, like, put Aaron Paul in it. And it looks very different, you know? So I'm interested in what they're...

Like, I want there to be things... I don't want everything to just be some... I don't want everything that gets money to just be some outgrowth of a comic book or a series of... Whatever it is. Like, I would love more original stuff, more interesting. Barry, you know, like stuff that we find... that we can get lost in that there isn't any kind of reference for,

or, you know, it's not a reimagining of or a reboot of or a prequel or a legacy prequel or any of this nonsense. Do they try that with comedy stuff? Like, are they like, hey, do you have any ideas about how to play around in the Stripes universe? No, but they, no and yes. Okay. The way it oftentimes works in comedy is how can we do Stripes now? Right.

Right? It's not, we won't call it. stripes. It's never about like, unless like Ghostbusters did it, I guess. But it really is a lot of times we want a, we want a something like, you know, Animal House. Sure. You know, a classic, but that only means a classic college comedy. You know what I mean? That doesn't mean like let's remake Animal House. Very rarely in comedies, is there an effort to reboot or remake? So you're saying I should table my Porky's shared universe script. Dude, never table. Porky's 2020.

I have one last question for you. I can't wait. Are we already done? Well, I mean, we can talk about whatever you want. All right, fine. But Adrian has a question that is very specifically tailored to your interests. All right, Yellowstone. Who is the better action star Keanu Reeves or Tom Cruise?

Oh, Keanu Reeves, unquestionably. So give me a little Keanu. Leaps and bounds. Keanu Reeves, and that is no shade to Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise is out there doing unbelievable stunt work. You know, I mean, like, that's the breaking his angles. ankle in that movie, the airplane, hanging off the airplane in the movie in the ghost protocol is the airplane, right?

I think we even as a society are at peace that we would probably see Tom Cruise die on screen. By the way, I think that's how he wants to go out. I think he's actively trying to make that happen. That's, I think, what he's doing. He's like, somebody's going to film my death. He's going to do the biopic of the Red Bull guy who jumped out of the satellite. Low, low orbit.

Yeah. And it's just the whole movie is just like he's actually going to do this jump. In real time. And he dies, yeah. It's the atmosphere and bounces right off. That would be really funny. Keanu Reeves, star of John Wick chapter three, parablellum, which I am, spoiler alert, also in, is so capable in myriad components of what makes a good action star. Yeah.

So he, you know, he is a black belt in, I can't remember what. Like everything. Let's just say everything. He's a black belt in judo. Ah, I'm not remembering. He's a black belt in a martial art. He has his own motorcycle. company. He's for, you know, 25 odd years been, like, training and practicing with all these

stunt guys for the May 1st, The Matrix movies and all this stuff. He is so, like, what's, what I think makes the John Wick movies compelling is that it is, you are watching, modern action is cross-cut and so much so that you can cover the fact that stuntmen and women are doing most of the stunt work, Most of the fighting, most of the close combat stuff, all of that stuff is done by stunt performers. Amazing stunt performers. But it means that how you cut a movie starts to, when you get into a fight, the geography of who's where starts to get confusing. It starts to get messy, and you don't quite know, it's not clean feeling. Keanu Reeves can do all of this stuff.

So when you're watching Keanu Reeves fight for guys, you're in camera watching Keanu Reeves' fight four guys. Then he might get hit by a car. That's not him. But when he gets up and fights three more guys, that's him again. So he's picking up one guy and throwing him over a bike. He's punching another guy. He's executing on a level that is like absolutely mesmerizing. The guy gets hit by a car is Cruz. Yeah. He's Keanu's stuntman. I would believe that. And I think, listen, I think Tom Cruise is amazing. Yeah. And I think the, you know, what a career resurgence in a way for him, to, like, I think for him to have basically been on the verge of being phased out of the Mission Impossible movies in favor of your boy Renner.

For the house flipper. Yeah, he's just putting in marble countertops and waiting to take over the franchise. Taking that wall down and let some light in, man. Skylights, maybe. But for him to now be like, no, he's fucking infuriably ensconced in that franchise now, in one way, shape, or form. And I does feel like they're jamming those movies out. just to get them done before like...

They're back to back in the next two. Yeah. I think they have to. I think, you know, at a certain point, what makes those movies work is how, is the ratcheting up each movie of the stunts. Yeah.

And I think for Tom Cruise, that's got to be scary at a certain point. And same for Keanu, I suspect. You know, these are guys who are in their mid-50s who are doing really difficult, actually very dangerous stunt work. And that's, you know, Not nothing.

Jason, thank you so much for coming by. Buddy, thank you for having me. What a delight. We'll have you on when Yellowstone S2 drops. No, I want to come in for the... Oh, no, Deadwood's pretty soon. Deadwood's in two weeks, but if you're around, man. I want to talk to...

I mean, we're going to need to talk about Deadwood, whether it's... I'll save it for you. When it comes out or whether it's some other... Whatever, whatever you guys want. Okay, Jason Minstukes. Thank you so much for coming by. Go see Johnwick 3. If you're one of like the five people in this country,

including me, you haven't seen it yet. And thank you so much for talking Game of Thrones, bro. Oh, yeah. Thank you.