The Watch - A Streaming Wars Update, ‘Loki’ Episode 3, and the Penultimate Episode of ‘Top Chef’

Episode Date: June 25, 2021

A recent Vulture piece revealed what 12 anonymous Hollywood insiders think about who’s really winning the streaming wars. Chris and Andy talk about that and what it means for a service to be “winning” these days (4:30). Then, they break down the most recent episode of ‘Loki’ (17:24) and talk about the unusual ending to the penultimate episode of ‘Top Chef’ (28:33). Read the Vulture piece here. Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, Lamentus is lovely this time of year. It's Andy Greenwolds. Chris, Lamentus 2.

I was very clear when I sent you the pin in Google Space Maps. Lamentus 2. I love the IGs. you've been putting up from Lamentus to Andy, what's up? It's Friday morning, actually. So welcome back to the show. You missed Monday, but we had a great show with Waz. I also just wanted to quickly do housekeeping wise. If people get a chance to check out 60 songs, they explain the 90s, please, please do. If you haven't yet, please check it out. I went on this week and did

pavements, Gold Sounds, which is one of my favorite songs. Me and Andy both love that song. Rob's intro essay is like next level good. Rob is just doing really, really amazing work on that podcast. It's one of my favorite pods that The Ringer has done. And shout out to Justin and Isaac, who work on it as well. And it's just like an incredible show. And if you have a road trip coming up this summer, I recommend you like get like five or six of them and listen to them in a row.

It's like, it's a really awesome, awesome show. So please check that out. Andy, how are you? Great. Great. I was just, I was entranced by what you were saying, you know? And I was, I, it's funny.

You sent me as you were doing research, not that either of us need to do research for having opinions about pavement. but you had been reading like old spin reviews of records and stuff and you had sent me our old editor and mentor Charles Aaron's review of Cricket Rain, Cricket Rain. And I'd had it open in my tab for a while because I kept going back to it. Like it was just this weird like like Rosebud like sled image in my mind. And then I realized that in Google Books you can go through the whole magazine. And it was the first time I felt like maybe I grew up.

inside of the old-time family photo booth at the Rojoboth Beach Boardwalk. Like, that maybe when I talk, my children, you just hear, like, I'm talking about daguerre types, how they used to be great, and you could stand for a slow exposure. Because this was a magazine that we, like, looked at, and we ended up working for it, you know, not too long after. And it's a wild time capsule, man. It's just a wild time capsule, not just that they were. On Google books.

All of them. Yeah, you can just kind of Google, Pavement, 1992, spin and see what you're, you can. it's where it takes you. It'll take it to some places. Honestly, my favorite thing in it, though, is, you know, we, especially the 90s are back in some ways in fashion. A lot of bands are taking from that style. I was listening to a great record this by a group called Rat Boys. I don't know if you've heard them. And it's just like, I could have listened to this in 1998, and that's a compliment. I would have loved it then. I love it now. But there's just like a full page ad in spin from like February 94 for, I think,

Southern Comfort. And the ad is full page. And it's two dudes who I guess are like they probably did market testing. Like who are the dudes? Like who looks like a spin reader, okay? And they both look like. Andy and Chris. That's who I would have chosen for the ad, although we didn't know what bourbon was. I think at that point, we were still, you know, pretty hooked on honey brown that we could pilfer from older brothers of friends.

But the both guys look like Jay from Jay and Silent Bob. Like it's two Js. You know what I mean? No silence. No silence Bob. and they are both wearing flannel shirts with nothing underneath it. And the text says, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work,

did you see that coming? No. The dudes are standing on a dock holding fish they've caught. What are the world? I don't know. What a world! I don't know how I would connect that to the 90s. Did that happen in 1994 more than it happened now?

Like outdoor activities with Southern comfort? Just explain to me the Venn diagram of hipster grunge dudes who read Spin Magazine are shirt curious, you know, but not like committed, who work a lot. But when they're not working, drink bourbon and fish. Like, we were one America then, I guess. I don't think they drink fish. I think that they... No, no, they drink, comma, fish. Oh, and fish. Yeah, right. Why don't we do this? So we want to do Loki and Top Chef today. But before we do, we'll do a quick bit on Joseph Adalian's most recent piece on Vulture, which we often cite Joseph's work. It's quite informative. It's quite well-source. It's from his newsletter buffering, which you can sign up for it. We don't work for

there. We're just saying it's a good, it's a good, I mean, he has great sources, great reporting. It's kind of about the streaming wars on a weekly basis. Right. And he has a new piece that's 12 Hollywood Insiders reveal who's really winning the streaming wars. There are some surprises in this piece. It's basically like a- It's us. Yeah, right? It's basically a list of these, of these channels of these streaming services ranked. And each one has a Wall Street analyst or an agent or a reality producer or a PR vet or a regular producer just talking about where they think this streaming service is at from a variety of different angles.

There's some, like I said, there's some not particularly surprising information and there's some frankly shocking information in this. Andy, what jumped out at you? Well, I think the first thing that we need to say is all streaming data is incredible obscure, right? Because there is no agreed upon standard of ratings. There's subscriber information, et cetera, et cetera. But so much of what these streaming services mean, their successes, has to be judged in terms of like internal accounting, like what they are doing for the larger corporate brand. And we are pretty blind to that information, although we can certainly make some guesses.

The second thing is that everyone quoted is just a shark in a snake's body. or like a snake riding a shark. They remind me of the people like Rissillo used to do these anonymous NBA scout scouting profiles of incoming draft classes. And like when you throw anonymous on an NBA scout, it's just like brother duck. Yeah, I mean, everything here, this is the real knives out too, right?

Everyone quoted anonymously has an agenda. And you could read this and be like, every service sucks. Everything is a disaster. And everybody's awful. And maybe that's true. This is, you and I live and work in this town. It certainly has its rough edges.

But I think that it has to be taken with that grain of salt as well. You know, every single one of these services does not come out looking great. So that said, I think the biggest headline, I think that you and I wanted to hit is the number one, but not necessarily with a bullet, maybe with a bunch of knives in its back, is Netflix, right? and the takeaway from what people say about it is that it is more fallible than maybe the larger watching public thinks, but also the perception of it is shifting. And I think there were a couple of things that happened this week that lend credence to that as well. There was something about the way in which the Netflix, you know, critiques or assessments

were phrased that I felt like, you know, obviously I don't sell things to Netflix or work within their system at all. But it articulated something that I think. some people who watch these things closely felt. And you're like, I knew that there was something. And sometimes you're like, well, Netflix is just like, doesn't seem like they put out prestige shows anymore. Or maybe like it just so much shit is on there.

And I never know like what's new or what I want. And then the sense that there are a lot of people who I think in the line here is like, credit to Netflix for becoming the Kleenex of streaming where it's like people don't refer to it streaming. They refer to it as Netflix. You know, they don't refer to it as TV. they're referred to as Netflix. Now, this week there was a lot of online kind of clamor about,

I honestly can't remember the name of this show, but it's like a dating show where people dress up as animals in full animal costume, stray beasts, something like that. It's called sexy beasts. Sexy beasts. Thanks, Kaya. Sorry. Thanks, Kaya. I don't mean this in a pejorative way,

but this looks like the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. And this is kind of like, this is how Netflix wins. is like, this is the kind of stuff that they're like, oh, wow, we can put losers and costumes and they can date one another. And that's, that's way cheaper, way more effective than spending millions and millions of dollars on House of Cards. Do you know who says Kleenex is just the catch-all for facial tissue in a pejorative way? Puffs. Puff says that. Sure, right. Everyone else is like, give me a Kleenex. It's pretty cool to be Kleenex, I think. Oh, no, let me rephrase that. Might not be cool. It does. Pretty profitable. Yeah, it's pretty profitable. Right.

There were two sort of supporting pieces of information here that I thought were interesting to come out this week. One, a reported cover story in Hollywood Reporter, one, some vaguely sourced tweet that I'm going to refer to. So this is a perfect podcast, in other words. Right. One was the Kenya Barris cover story. And for people who don't know the Nick Kenya Barris created Blackish, you were coming to America, coming to America, among many other things. He was one of the big Netflix signings when they were doing that run. of like $100 million deals with Shonda Rhymes and Ryan Murphy.

Kenya Barris was the recipient of one of those deals. His first show was Black AF, which he then started in with Rashida Jones. And then a few months ago, he consciously uncoupled from Netflix, which was sort of a shocking move with a lot of money and a lot of years left on the table to go become an equity partner with Viacom and BET and a new venture called BET Studios. And the thing explains all of it. And anyway, obviously this piece was with Kenya's participation. and it was from his point of view in a lot of ways,

but Lacey Rose is a great interviewer. The takeaway from it was he was like, Netflix wasn't the place I thought it was. And it wasn't the place that was going to push the envelope. And of course, from Netflix's perspective, they were probably like, we wanted blackish. We don't want you doing your version of Kirby enthusiasm. So it was clearly a bad fit from jump.

But that was another sign that, you know, Netflix is becoming the broadcast television that we thought it was going to supplant. The other piece of anecdotal evidence was this study that basically the median age subscriber of Netflix is considerably higher than any of the other services. Again, that's not a bad thing. Like, older subscribers, older viewers are what they typically have more money.

Yeah, I mean, like, there's like a certain value. I mean, like, look, subscribers, subscriber-based businesses is skew advertising. So a lot of that demographic stuff may have different uses within their kind of economic ecosystem or whatever their business plan is. I do think that there's like an element to Netflix that feels a little like private equity or like driven by purely statistical analysis and like, like, cost and and, you know, it's basically like cost benefit analysis rather than it would be cool to put a show like this on. You know, like it would be cool. It would be cool. Like, why don't like, we'll do underground railroad. You know what I mean? Like what does Chloe Zhao want to do? Like she can have it, yeah, like give her 10 hours, you know? I mean, I think having an older subscription. Just means that you were, the early adopters are usually younger people who are hip to things.

And then Netflix has been around so long that everyone got their parents a subscription or their parents got the subscription. And that's a really successful thing. I mean, your boy, David Muir is dining well in New York still because of older people who are still watching TV. You know, forget about young Sheldon. What about Old Sheldon? That show ran for years. So that's a great place to be. Your point, though, is really well taken and important, which is to say that we still think.

of Netflix, and maybe it's so relevant as they're expanding in territories around the world where they have to compete for different eyeballs and different properties. But generally, when you are successful in anything, let alone television, you do more of the same because people come to expect that from you. When you are hungry and not yet successful is when you take the biggest risks. And this is a cycle that we saw happen 10, 15 years ago. And we always cite this. But, you know, Breaking Bad and Mad Men were like top drawer scripts that everyone read and had gotten people, gotten Matt Weiner and, um, and Vince Gilligan work and jobs and interests and meetings, but had not been made. And AMC was in a position where they, they were the ones who were ready to take the chance. And that's generally where a lot of these other streamers are. And you can see this in the behavior of what, uh, Joe Adelian ranks or his, his anonymous sources rank as the last one, which is peacock. And, you know, I, I'll speak delicately because of my relationship with the universal and with the people involved in the transaction. And you just are a huge fan of peacocks in general.

You have many in your backyard. Anytime I go up to Pasadena, I'm like, look at that blue guy in that roof. I think it's notable that friend of a pod, Damon Lindelof, sold his new show to Peacock. That's, you know, we don't know anything about it. I think it's called Mrs. Jones. But it's interesting. That's something that probably because of his relationship with Warner Brothers was at least on Casey Blois's desk first. I mean, that's where Watchman was.

And Peacock bit on it. And that must mean, for me, that means it's exciting. That means it's interesting. That means it's risk-aking. And so you've got to pay attention to that piece of the ecosystem as well when you talk about it. Yeah, the only other thing I would mention before we move on to Top Chef and Loki is just the Hulu, the Hulu assessment here is worth noting. Just because I use Hulu. I mean, I know many people who use Hulu as their way of watching live television.

I know people who use Hulu is primarily, like, that is actually what people refer to. flicks. Like, people use Hulu for all of that stuff. But, and I actually find that I've enjoyed many Hulu originals, but the industry and the town perception of Hulu seems to be quite a bit lower than mine. Yeah, it's odd. Also considering Hulu, you know, first streaming service to win a best drama Emmy for Handmade Sale, like, by all, and plus their relationship with neon. And digitally distributed the best picture order. Yeah. Parasite. Yeah, and had Palm Springs, which was a big success for them. And no Madlands.

I think a lot of that assessment was viewed, it was being attacked from two fronts. I think creatively people were saying, I think that the agents or whomever, the studio, you know, the creative side of it was venting some frustration, apparently, with the leadership team there in terms of the process. And I think that was speaking to the deeper divisions as to what is Hulu now when there's remnants of Fox still there, there's Disney still there, there's the creative team that was excited about making pretty groundbreaking stuff. And there's FX, which is still now folded into Hulu. So there's a lot of cooks in that particular kitchen, and the kitchen

itself might be redundant, because for the rest of the world, the Hulu content is on a Disney Plus hub. You notice I say Disney Plus when I'm speaking about the rest of the world, the French accent only applies domestically, called Star. And it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that that might be Hulu's future because Disney, you know, has multiple theme parks, but do they need multiple expensive, relatively streaming services? Yeah, I think it depends on how long they can, the bundle right now, the ESPN plus Hulu, Disney plus bundle, I think is attractive. If that ever winds up being like, thank you for subscribing to these three different services for a while, now your, now your bill is $35 a month or $40 a month, I think people are going to start making some

decisions. I think the last thing to say about it is, for me, the bottom line in any of these conversations is really, and you know, this is not how I have in my actual life, but it is financial. And we talked about Netflix's, you know, pleasing shareholders and using market positioning to continue to grow and have a lot, have deep pockets. But we're talking about a battle in which two of the participants are the two richest companies on Earth, Amazon and Apple. So they're in it. You know, you can take shots at the them and be like, oh, they disappeared Barry Jenkins' 10-hour Underground Railroad to show that you and I are going to return to and talk about. But they can do it. So literally, so what?

Not to Barry Jenkins or who is fans, I don't mean that disrespectfully. I just mean that Amazon and Apple aren't going to fail because they can't. And Disney is also uniquely positioned both because of its content library and its enormous track, you know, its enormous head start with subscriber base because of the appeal of its properties, but also its properties. And now that cruise ships are running again and theme parks are open. It's really rich. That whole thing is going to just go great. The cruise ship thing is so smooth.

Oh, it's so, it's so smooth. Like, how excited are you to be back on the grand ballroom deck? No, I mean, it's just great because I've always wanted to visit the keys by large battleships. Slowly, slowly is the key. That's how I like to get places. Let's take a quick break when we come back. We'll do Top Chef and Loki. The playoffs are here, and you can.

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Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. Okay, we are back. What do you want to do first? let's do Loki, then let's transition into the TC because it's going to get spicy. Sure, I guess this is their,

this was the link later one, you know. No, I mean, we busted balls about the director bullshit stuff from earlier in the season. And it was like, I think, before Sunrise was in there. Right, this is literally a meetcute on a train.

And it's just two folks walking, telling each other stuff about themselves. I continue to think that this is probably the most cohesive and in some ways coherent like version of Marvel on Disney so far or Marvel on Disney Plus. Yep.

I have to admit, I kind of don't know what the show is. I know what it's about, like, technically. I don't know what the sort of quest is here or what we're doing three episodes in. Like I don't know what, and I think that's part of the sort of maybe the inherent charm and maybe probably with Loki is if he's always lying and if he's always creating sort of distractions and enchantments and mischief and all

the stuff that like you kind of go down a lot of blind alleys with this character because you think he's something for five minutes and then he's something else. And when you double it by having Sylvie, you know, you're going to have a feeling of like, am I watching anything real right here? And is there some light at the end of the tunnel in terms of what these people want. Right. Well, I mean, I hear you on that.

I think that what we're building to clearly is this whole time variance authority is a sham and someone is controlling something else and there will have to be some sort of rebellion from within and all the pieces that are slowly being gathered that reveal that all of these loyal minute men and women who work for the TVA are themselves variants and thus the idea of a pure timeline is fraudulent and built into that idea. idea is the idea that people can change. Even evil gods of mischief can write their own future and destiny. And also we can have Miles Morales be Spider-Man in two to five years. So it's all part of the larger piece. Is that, is we can have Miles Morales be Spider-Man the carrot here?

No, I just mean that we already know that the multiverse and multiple timelines is the future of the Marvel universe. Got you know, I mean, your guy, Dr. Strange, I mean, he's going to be in the multiverse of madness. No, I know. They're not hiding it. And we know that the Spider-Man pointing at Spider-Man meme is coming to our screens in December. So that is the future, and that's okay. To me, I think I'm coming. I think we both fundamentally agree that this is working. And I think that the reasons for it are kind of like what you said.

You brought it up as potentially as a, you know, it could be confusing or it could be, you know, darkness on the horizon or darkness on lamentous. But I remain thrilled that there is no, who's the power broker? I did do a browse through the phanosphere. And it's some pretty thin gruel. People are like, oh, that moon is Lamentus one, which you all remember from the annihilation crossover of the early 2000s. And that definitely means we're doing the Abnet and Lanning Guardians of the Galaxy versus the annihilation wave story.

And it's like, my guess is Michael. Walgeon was like, hey, Lou Desposito and Kevin Feige, what's a planet? Yeah, what planet am I allowed to use? Right. You know, and that's fun because we own the IP rights to the words Lamentus one, you know, which I actually think was a coheed in Cambria album title, but I guess I was wrong about that. And so I love that we don't, that it's harder than I think people expected to parse here. I mean, it's still fun if people go read Annihilation or whatever, Cree, Scroll War, that is being referenced, that that's additive, but I don't think it's necessary.

And the second piece, which I think we agree on, is that after three episodes, even this one that was, and maybe because this one was slightly different, I just think this is the most successful one they've done to date also because it is completely, but not, I just think it is a, yeah, the show itself, because I think this is just fully a successful project. And that sounds a little cold to say it that way. But what I mean is, or clinical, it just feels like, all of the talents here, and Marvel has no trouble attracting talent, that's been established, is on the same page and pointed in the same direction. So we have these great, fun, rich performances from Tom Hiddleston and Sophia D. Martino in this episode,

matched with this production design, matched with a cinematography, matched with the matchless CGI or, you know, Unreal Engine or whoever they're doing this. That's all practical effects, man. That's all in camera. I love it. He was like, have you ever seen water? Did you guys see fucking Blade Runner? Oh my gosh. That's wild.

But it's all, for me, it's all working because it is just, it's self-contained and moving forward on the track to use the train analogy. So let me ask you this. It's like somebody who's read a lot of comics and who has got to have been rope-doped. I'm sure way more times than I have when it comes to, I'm reading a run. And then it turns out that the consequences of this run are. the stakes of this run were essentially nothing because it was all this. If it turns out that this entire episode, which

I thought, was it times charming and was at times a little bit of a drag, if it turns out that this entire episode is happening inside of Loki's head because she's basically doing the same thing that she did to the Sasha Lane character, where she's creating a memory of something to then

entice him to, I don't, I can't even remember what he's supposed to tell her or what she needs from him. I thought she just needed that. She needs his iPad. Right, but just but does she just not know where it is? Like, what's the... I don't know what it is that she needs from him. Is that going to bother you?

That you just spent an hour... No. Basically doing a fake dream sequence. Yeah, go ahead. Before I answer that, let me say, this did... I did feel emotionally connected to this episode, regardless, because it reminded me very keenly

at the last time I was in New York and didn't charge my phone for an entire day. You know what I mean? Like, looking for a place to plug in briefly. Like, you end up at a bar and you're like, I just plug this in over there behind the bottles of pop-off vodka? I'm sure bartenders are so glad that that's back.

They always loved that. But to your point, I think being a comic book veteran, what a badge of honor that sounds like it is, but you have to move past that because no story you're reading matters emotionally in the larger contextual game, right? It matters just in the moment where you're reading it where an element of a character is unlocked and that's the beautiful harmony between big, crazy, written ideas and beautiful artwork, it's all going to be undone. It's fragile. And I think the best comic book

writing embraces that and runs towards it. So whether this was a dream sequence now or later, like, as long as the MCU is a successful project, there will probably be other Loki variants. And when Tom Hiddleston gets tired of doing it, someone else will play the part as a variant who will now be the one we care about. See, I actually, I hope not.

Because, I mean, I'm sure Loki has like a lot of of like wins above replacement, you know, value to the universe. But like, To me, it's like the reason to do this show is to just let him cook. Like, it's not, I need Loki to be gallivanting across timelines and, like, screwing things up and playing tricks on folks. Like, it's like, Tom Hiddleston is incredibly charming, clear out and let him work. I couldn't agree more, which is why I have no trouble. It's like, Spider-Man, they're going to have to keep casting Spider-Man.

You know what I mean? But, like, Loki, I'm just like, yeah, you know, like, you can bear that one with Tom Hidlston. I think you are right about that. And I think that as more characters are added, it'll be interesting to see where they really strike casting gold and seeing those characters rise. And it is definitely driven by the movies and TV shows. You know, if you go, they finally got their acts together. If anyone listening who has stepped into a comic bookstore in the last year would agree with me. Like, I think it took them years to figure out how to do this.

But if you walked into a comic book store earlier in the year, there would be, there were perfectly. positioned Scarlet Witch envisioned trade paperbacks, you know, right at the correct moment. And then suddenly Falcon or Winter Soldier, like they have their, they have solo series again. They know what's going on. They didn't used to have that kind of integration. And now they do. And so I think that, you know, if Sylvie turns out to be the super villainy enchantress, I would not be surprised if she's playing an important role in Jason Aaron's Thor run that's

happening right now or whatever. But all that said, I like TV episodes like this. I like episodes where people talk. I think that the, you know, I think the characters were well played and talked well. And I just think that overall, I'm just impressed by the construction of the series because this fit here. This didn't feel like a mandate, you know, where Marvel wanted this. So they wanted to introduce Lamentus or they wanted to whatever. It was like the show is built as a series of conversations, basically.

You know, and two episodes were Loki and Mobius and now it's Loki and Sylvie. And I like talkie shows. And I like that they found. a fun framework to set the conversation. I way prefer the talkie shows to the fight sequences and Loki and just in general.

I'm just like I don't need to have 10 minutes of fighting. It's fine. I don't either, but I have to say, it's funny you mention that. I generally kind of tune out during fight sequences and anything, but I think that that Marvel method that we've heard about where they're like,

come in to do what you do best and we'll storyboard the other stuff for you. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I know that they offer those services to directors and people who haven't done this sort of work. I thought the fight scenes, I mean, they're hard to stage. Yeah, I'm not knocking, like, this skill that goes into them as much as, like, nothing ever happens with those.

Like, they're very... No, I thought they're well integrated. Yeah, right. In this particular episode of TV. Last thing we should mention just about this episode before we move on to Top Chef was that it was written by Isha Ali. She was credited with the script

and just worth noting her first appearance off-screen in the Marvel Cinematic Universe because she is the head writer and I guess de facto showrunner of Ms. Marvel, which has been filming for these last few months, which is a big project coming up later in the year. We should also mention that Loki is revealed to be, I believe, gender fluid and bisexual?

Yes, yes. Well, confirmed to be. Confirmed. As a big, big fan energy on that one. And also, I think, has been born out in the comic books in recent years. I would love to comment on this, but I cannot think of a more profound statement than what Van and Charles did on Midnight Boys,

where they discussed whether or not they would want to sleep with their with their identical other or their soul partner. Like if they met themselves, would they sleep with themselves? You should just listen to midnight boys. I don't think I can do better. I got nothing.

Okay. So top chef. Top chef. The semi final, or at least the semi. I would like to seed my time to someone else here. But not you.

Not you. I would like to cede my time to a man we mostly know from ESPN first take, and his name is Stephen A. Chef. You ready? Wow. Andy Greenwald.

What we saw last night on Tap Chef Portland. Was a disgrace! Oh my God. Oh my God. Is the show called Chef Andy Greenwald? Are we calling it just Chef? Is it just who wants to cook? Or is it called Top Chef?

Is it a competition? anymore. Wow. So you feel like they made it to the... That's my... That's the... I... That's the... I... I needed to have a little bit of a... of a remove. Like, by doing some character work there, because... I think I'm like 65 to 75% agree with the take I just said. So it's like...

Okay. There's a part of me that thinks it's beautiful what happened last night on Top Chef. So in case anybody just listens to these recaps without actually watching the show. It was the semifinal between Gabe Dawn and Showing. They did a quick fire where they went clam digging with Brooke. Seemed really fun. Shoda cut his hand while making a, what was it? A soup? What did it show to make?

He's the only one who didn't make a soup. No, he made like clam three ways. Oh, that's right. They were sake stewed and also there was a fried element. And then Gabe and Don made some soups. And everybody seemed to have a hard time getting their induction burner working in a rainstorm. But, you know, everybody goes on to the final elimination challenge or the elimination challenge. it's the semi-final,

to see who goes to the final. It is a dungeness crab forward challenge where they go off and they catch their own crabs. They come back and they're supposed to cook crabs with two different preparations, a cold and a hot. And it looks like everybody makes some dynamite food, no doubt about it.

And I thought that it was like the perfect distillation of where each one of those chefs are and who they are. Like, Shodam made a purely creative, inventive, technically miraculous bite of food with the diacon, I thought. It looked like at least.

Dawn had just so much heart and soul poured into her crab boil. Gabe doing this stuff with tortillas and like trying to do different flourishes and elevations of core Mexican preparations. And then we get to the end.

And there's like a, there's several things. that are being debated by up to 12 different chefs. Yeah. In the judge's table. Not the judge's table, but the eating table. And then they go to a final judge's table. They award Shoda wins the elimination challenge.

And then they say, we've decided nobody is going home. Yeah. Congratulations. You're all going to the finale. Yep. I take it you're a fan of this decision. I hear your frustrations. my frustration is just that this is the second time

this has happened this season in some ways in a way. The Byron gauntlet of the tofu tournament and then four Last Chance Kitchen cooks and interestingly enough, the people who he was cooking against in Last Chance Kitchen were like, we are making it our mission so that he does not come back

because it's easier to beat four other people than five other people. So I was very surprised, not that they're like, I expect Shoda to be, magnanimous and he obviously loves these people that he's cooking with. I was surprised as she showed to be like, so now I have to beat two people in the finale? Well, you mean that he wasn't expressing more frustration?

Yeah, that there was not like a kind of like, huh. So I won this, but I actually didn't get any kind of like advantage for winning it or there's no benefit to winning it. Yeah, I think I think that's the strongest argument against this by far. And I'd be curious how the edit was handled because Shoda is not, I mean, as we saw with his attempts, good, good natured attempts to block Gabe from ever winning A Quickfire. And she wanted by, didn't want no part of Byron coming back. Right.

Shoda is competitive. And he sometimes will do the thing where you say what you really feel and then shrug it off with a good natured laugh. So it's very possible that he expressed some of that. And maybe we'll see some of it. And it was edited out or we'll see it next week. I think one of the counters to your well-made point is that both of these things have happened before.

Stephen A's well-made point. Right. I would not go toe to toe with Stephen A. Stephen A chef. On any topic. What about who does, like sterling sharpen your knives? Is that going to work? Yes.

I can do better. Max Thomas Keller. Oh, I like that one. That's a little, took me a second. You understand what I'm doing right now is trying to skip Bayleaf. Like I can't. This is all off the dome, guys. This is harder than it looks.

these things these things have both happened before the last chance kitchen gone like which I was very frustrated by as well happened last year in the all-star season Kevin was able to win and got back in the competition the we can't decide you guys are all champions

we're going to have a three-person finale has happened before I did not have a moment to research which seasons that happened in but you it has happened to the degree where I think I remember it to I'm just I think even two weeks ago I suggested that we were headed there that there was going to be a week where no one was going to go home,

partly because of the good vibes and the sort of equal nature. Shoda is clearly separated himself, but Gabe and Don are certainly able to cook at his level and felt very, very equal in terms of what happened last night. So these things have happened before. I also can definitely empathize with the judges, which is I want to see all three of these shows. chefs cook the meal of their lives without restrictions.

There is nothing to me that suggests that they shouldn't have that opportunity. I know the game is the game, but the game is also mutable and changes week to week and season to season. I also think that the decision may have something to do with the fact that this penultimate challenge was too hard. I think it may have just been too hard. But that was never mentioned. No, but I, well, we certainly heard from the chefs themselves being like,

Cooking 13 plates of food, no, 26 plates of food, two courses, while also cleaning and processing these impossible crabs is, you know, it's just not really preceded. And we saw the effects on, like, Shoda never gets rattled by time or anything. Right. And he was supposed to do sushi two ways and just did it one. Right. He, exactly.

And which, by the way, never overpromise and underdeliver. Like, you just never tell the menu person what, you should just say sushi and then be like, great, sushi. Right. But then, you know, Don had an error as well, which she just bewilderingly owned up to. That was kind of interesting. She didn't need to do that. She was just almost radically honest when they were like, it was this mess intentional.

She should have been like, yes. Richard, like, Richard Blaze would have been like, yes. And also, this sauce is so pure, you don't need anything to dunk into it. You don't need a starch. Right. I love Don as a person for being so honest and, like, using that as an opportunity to get feedback and be honest and talk about it. I think she's going to emerge more successful. I mean, she's already a success, but an even greater chef in person.

But and then Gabe also, you know, like melted a kitchen towel into a tortilla. It's an interesting balance. I mean, they respect these chefs a lot. And obviously, they want the competition to get harder and harder. But the cheese challenge and the, and this one felt technically more demanding. And listen, people who have watched seasons or done a whole deep dive or rewatch more recently than I have can probably. correct me if I'm wrong here, but they felt just really hard at a time, in a technical way, like just processing crabs, you know what I mean? Like making two dishes and defeating these two

people is hard enough, but doing that kind of kitchen grunt work felt really challenging. So I felt like in some ways, though they didn't say it, it was a make good because they all kind of messed up to a degree. I could see that. The other thing is one of the successes of Top Chef has been its ability to consistently communicate to us things that are impossible for us to truly understand or reason with. You know, like this tastes better than that. I completely agree with you.

And I do think that right now, while I am enjoying the cast of thousands that they have eating and judging and talking about this stuff, there was like a real, like, you guys are shattering the glass right now moment when there is this debate about a sunchoke in Gabe's dish. the prominence of a roasted sun choke flavor. And whether or not the sun choke overshadowed the crab.

Have you ever seen Brooke that upset? No, but here's the issue is I can't, I don't know. You know what I mean? I'm not eating that sun choke. I'm not eating that crab. It's one thing if there's three fishermen from the crab boat and a person who is the preserver of all crab recipes in the Pacific Northwest and somebody from the James Beard Foundation and they're all like,

well, this is just dynamite food. And then Padma, Gail, Tom, and if they have a guest judge or whoever, are like, didn't like this, love this, didn't like this, love this. When you've got 12, 15 world famous chefs, having it literal, like the sun choke or not to sun choke debates, I have no idea.

And it actually winds up unwinding the kind of, not faith that you have in the sort of process, but it's not that I need Pat McGill and Tom to judge every dish, but I do think that they should be the voices that we're hearing. Because otherwise, you start to get into,

well, fuck it. If all of Top Chef has told me that plating is important, but then Don dumps a bunch of stew, basically in a plate and throws it on the table, and they're all like,

this is fucking amazing. And a couple people are like, this looks like she poured it in with a fire hose. Which one's right? Top Chef, though, is a living, breathing thing. And actually, it is an 18-season march from an objective standard in the kitchen to a subjective standard, which is where we are headed, you know, where we've headed culturally, societally. I mean, it's a much deeper issue as well. I think that Top Chef has managed that march beautifully and in ways that are, like, deeply moving and deeply inspiring.

But it is, it's not without its bumps along the road. And so if you consider it, you're two things to consider. One, Shoda's triumphs this season are really incredible because he is, as he keeps saying, as he's becoming more comfortable saying and expressing, cooking purely Japanese food at this point. You know, astute dicon radish. It doesn't get more purely Japanese than that. And it's beautiful and transcendent. And he's competing only against himself at this point because he's not using oils.

He's not using butter. You know, he's not using anything that Top Chef winners would have used. So that's in and of itself is noteworthy and amazing. One step further, though, Gabe's errors such as they were, were technical. You know, he served a hot dish instead of a cold dish. Previous seasons of Top Chef, I feel like that's... That's a Brian Voltaggio, you are going home.

Kind of, yeah. Yeah. Then he missed one of the most important elements on one of the plates. That, again, as we talked to it before. that crab tortilla would taste good even if it had some melted linen in there. I would have been fine with it. Mine has notes of linen, like fresh laundry. Do you know what tastes better than sun chokes?

Melted kitchen towel in crab fat. Dawn, on the other hand, though, is... She's confounding and beguiling and inspiring an equal measure, right? Because what she served them as the crab boil. Her first, I love what they said about her first dish, what Tom said. That it's a branding, she made a massive branding error. If she just said this was like essentially like a vegan chowder, she would make money off of it. Instead, she's like, it's a cashew soup with this on the side and with extra frizzy bits.

It's like, oh, that kind of thing, when Tom jumps in and says that from like the god level chef of like how we're going to succeed in this industry that we're going to rebuild together, it's fascinating. But her second dish, this crab boil, is 10 seasons ago. You're not making that in the semifinals. You're certainly not advancing with it. But I loved what Gail said. They all fell silent. And then they were having fun and wiping each other's faces and ruining their wardrobe. Yes.

And that is powerful. You're absolutely right. It's totally the transformation that not only Top Chef has had, but the difference between like we're going out to dinner 10 years ago or 15 years ago or whatever it is to now is the transformation you're talking about. It's white table cloth and everybody is like the chef will now dominate you with his vision of nine course whatever versus like, hey, you know what everybody loves to do is sit around a table and share food and share an experience together.

So like roll your fucking sleeves up and put a bib on, you know? And that's what Alice Waters said. The best, whenever James Beard was really into something, he would tuck a napkin into his collar. And this is how smart the show is on numerous levels, right? like the James Beard awards are given and they're, you know, and talked about on the show, but they had become, and they were, you know, they took a year off because they'd become riven with the same kind of elitist, patriarchal classist, you know, structures that have ruined much

of America, let alone the dining scene. Right. And James Beard, as his biographer said recently, would have hated that because he had many problems and faults, but he did believe what Tom said in this democratization of food and food cultures. And so Don championed that. And so for me, allowing them both to move on, not only is going to make a really fascinating and, and I think just beautiful final for what has been an incredibly, incredibly successful season of TV, and we'll talk more about it next week when we get there. But I don't, I think it was fair for this moment, this inflection moment, really, for what the show is and what it's going to be.

and to let these three completely distinct chefs with distinct food ways and cultural backgrounds and stories keep cooking for this familial group, as you said, of people that we also know and love. I don't know. I mean, we'll talk more about it next week. Hopefully we could have some special guests on when the season is over. But I keep using this word and I never thought I would use it about top chef, but maybe I wouldn't have used it about food in general 15 years ago. But like Nina Compton and Kwame, like being the judges for this, for the diverse chef tessence that are there. there and the celebration that it is engendering, you know, is not like anything else I've seen on TV in a while. And it's really uplifting and pure in a way that I needed. And I think

hopefully viewers have responded to as well. I just want, we can keep doing this where it's just like, you know what, this has really been a hard season and this has been, everybody's working as hard as they can. And this is such a sacrifice and I agree with all of it. And it is really heartwarming. It better end with Tom being like, finish him. Like Mortal Kombat style. That's Don's final test is like just fucking sub-zeroing somebody. Well, just all the skills she learned

cracking those giant gooey duck clams, right? Yeah. Like, I just hope he doesn't deliver it in a soggy fedora. You know what I mean? Like, I just, I want, I want him to be just a little bit more tuned up.

Okay, so we'll be back Monday, yes. You'll be joining me on Monday. Well, who knows, you know? I love podcasting with you. my brother? No, we'll be back on Monday. We'll kick it. And then on Thursday night, Friday morning, we'll have Top Chef the finale and Loki season, episode four. All right, thanks for listening, guys. We have a great weekend for instance. Putting off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated. At blinds.com,

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