The Watch - ABC Suspends Jimmy Kimmel, Why You Should Check Out Netflix’s ‘Black Rabbit’, and ‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 7

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about ABC’s decision to indefinitely suspend Jimmy Kimmel and what it means for the media space (1:18). Then, they take a moment to remember Robert Redford and his outsized impact on film in the wake of his passing (11:58). Later, they break down the penultimate episode of ‘Alien: Earth’ and the premiere of the new Netflix miniseries, ‘Black Rabbit,’ starring Jason Bateman and Jude Law (30:50). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he also remembers Mars Bar. It's Andy Greenwald. I do. You're talking Black Rabbit.

I'm talking Black Rabbit on Netflix. I'm talking Alien Earth on FX. We might discuss the legacy of the great Robert Redford. Oh, yeah. And obviously, we have to address the Jimmy Kimmel stuff. Greenwald, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I also have some other things on my personal... Oh, I got some other things on my docket, too. I have a shadow docket. You know, like all the great thought leaders in America. Like Anthony and Scalia? I'm assigned, but opinions are strong. Oh, man. Andy, great to you Thursday.

We're recording this at 1057. You can email us at the watch at Spotify.com. You can follow us at the watch. Watch pod underscore on Instagram. And you can watch us on YouTube, bringer dash TV or on Spotify, we hope you listen to this podcast. You can watch us last night walking out at Dodger Stadium with our tails between our legs.

Couple of losers. Yeah. Before it even ended. We gave up. We quit. Well. We wanted to be traffic. We saw where it was going.

We won the series. It's all right. Greenwald, great to see you. I mentioned that it was 1057 because obviously the Jimmy Kimmel story is quickly evolving. And I just wanted to kind of timestamp our reactions and also like the reporting that's come out about it, which is a little, on one hand, it's incredibly clear what happened. And on the other hand, it's a little murky because as of,

this recording, Bob Iger, and there's been an ABC statement, but there has not been a corporate Disney statement. Bob Iger has not done an interview about this to my knowledge. So I'll just sort of set this scene by reading from the Wall Street Journal. What that keeps you right in your morning routine? I have a sub. Must be nice. Truly. Disney said it pulled Jimmy Kimmel's show off ABC in the wake of remarks the late night host made about the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. Jimmy Kimmel Live will be preempted indefinitely, an ABC spokesman said on Wednesday. The suspension began with Wednesday's plan broadcast. While no return date had been set, Disney was monitoring the situation and saw a path to the show

potentially returning in the next several days, according to a person familiar with the situation. Corporate bravery at its finest. Federal Communications Commission Chairman Brendan Carr said in an interview on CNBC Thursday that Kimmel appeared to directly mislead the American Post. quote-unquote about Kirk's murder. During an interview with conservative political podcaster Benny Johnson on Wednesday, Carr suggested that the FCC could take action against the broadcast licenses of APC-owned stations, owners of some ABC TV stations, including large broadcasters, Next Star Media Group,

and Sinclair told the network they were dropping the show. There's so much good faith in all this. It's almost hard to parse. So how should we talk about this? Because obviously there's like a personal reaction. There is also like the lens through which we usually talk about things, which is within the realm of like TV movies, the entertainment industry, the culture industry. What has the Austin stand-up community have to say about this?

Because I believe they... That's my shadow docket. I know. I believe on mass, they voted against cancel culture. And I just am dying to hear how they feel about this. Next time I go to the mothership, I'll let you know. I've not actually been in the mothership. I don't even want to get into this.

Okay. I'm just noting with interest a sweatshirt color you're wearing today. That's all, it's all I'm saying. Shout out to Tushé and Moray. That's the sweatshirt I'm wearing. Shout to Jeremy. Make America a good.

Anyway, I thought we could start with the conversation about this as a TV story. Okay. Which may seem far down the list of the sort of most important things happening. Well, I mean, there's, there's, I don't know if it is just a TV story, to be honest with you. I don't think it is.

Like Jimmy Kimmel, who is the consummate broadcaster, like he's very, very, very good at this. He's good at hosting the Oscars. He's good at hosting his own show. He has been, how long has that show been on? 24 years, I believe. Bill moved out here to do it. So in a way, thank you, Jimmy,

for the trickle-down effect. That does work, by the way, trickle-down economics. You know, I think we both have had personal interactions with them before, and he's a lovely guy in person. John Sal, yes. Connections to the show. On a personal and professional level, I think this absolutely sucks. It is deeply unfair, if not borderline, corrupt.

And it is a tragedy anytime people lose their jobs, whether it's for one day, five days, or forever. And the show, being a bedrock of L.A. has employed hundreds of people for a very long time. And it's worth mentioning still records its nightly show or its weeknightly show in the center of Hollywood. I think that there is a absolute, you know, bad faith, insane snowflake political story to be told here. That's not generally where we get to go with our coverage, usually just only in sort of, you know, little sour asides to each other at the beginning or end. So I think for me, you know, the bigger story isn't just the fast forward button being hit on what was an inevitable degradation of late night as we have known it for our whole lives. That's sort of the framing of the Colbert story, even though I think in many ways they are part of the same story. As much as that 1130 hour with light politics monologue celebrity guests promoting movies and some comedic bits that now get chopped up and enjoy it on YouTube the next.

next day. As much as that's part of the framework of our day, even though you and I don't really stay up that late anymore, let alone watch these shows, it does feel very significant to see them being taken off the air, being canceled, being overlooked, being piled upon, and removed from our lives. Like, that is very intense and surprising, particularly, I mean, even though I think before any of these cancellations and suspension started, I think that if we had had a conversation about the future of late night, I don't think we would have said it's white men in their 50s talking to microphones at 1130. It's white men in the 50s talking to microphones at 1047 in the morning.

Right? The way God intended it. Anyway, so that's the TV part of it, right? I think the more deeply, deeply chilling aspect of the story for us today and going forward is a larger story about the chilling and corrupting effects of media consolidation. Yes. And what happens when everything is. owned by two to nine billionaires who want to accrue more billions. And in order to extract money

from their properties, not only make very often callous decisions about staffing, about hiring, about employment, also must apparently bend the knee to whomever in Washington controls their opportunities to expand their already enormous bottom line, which is really the story here, far beyond the the salacious true social chatter about like standing up for

the hurt feelings or a fallen friend this is going to be cast as a free speech story I'd suppose it should be I think that I've probably reached the end of the road

doing what about back and forth or reading what about back and forth you know online about cancel culture or suppression of information and stuff like that.

And we just are going back and back and back. I think it's worth noting that Nextar, who is one of the network of affiliates that dropped Jimmy this week, is also looking to buy another collection of affiliate stations and do a merger. And I think that there is a feeling right now that I would say is pretty accurate,

that you need to have the tacit endorsement or explicit endorsement of the federal government to pull off a merger like that. And I'm not saying that it's a quid pro quo, but I'm not not saying that, I guess. You know, I mean, I don't, it's hard to look at the way that society is functioning right now

and think of it as anything other than, you know. Kleptocracy? Yeah, kleptocracy. And deeply corrupt, yeah. Like, look, there's a hotter spotlight at the moment because of the rashness of these actions and also, again, the supremely bad faith in which all of this has been carried out.

And this is what happens when the person who is actually pulling the strings is a sensitive snowflake, right? And can't have feelings hurt. And thus, everyone is quick to make it about that. The deeper story that will far outlive this presidency is the consolidation of media in the hands of a few billionaires.

That's ongoing no matter what. Now, the flames might not reach as high because, for example, we're talking about this under the, you know, a few days on from word getting out that David Ellison, fresh off his takeover of Paramount, would like to also add Warner Brothers, WarnerMedia to his portfolio, thus making Paramount plus HBO with Showtime or whatever it might be. That would be a story regardless of who was in the White House. And I haven't seen much evidence of either party, frankly, stopping things like that from happening or understanding. the trickle-down effects of that. Now, in the short term, what could happen if he tries to do it in the

next few months? Well, that might be it for South Park, right? Like any more times you give them, you give a little bit, they're going to take more. That's actually, as we learn in Black Rabbit, that's how it works when you're in debt to someone. Juice is running. You know? Yeah. But the deeper story about who controls the stories that we get to tell or the entertainment that we get to enjoy. It's very, very dark. It's very, very disturbing. Yeah, I say watch this space, not

because I don't want to talk about this anymore, but I think that this is just chapter five in a long, long book. And, you know, you talked about David Ellison's takeover of Paramount, his rumored attempts or interest in buying Warner Brothers Discovery.

His father, Larry Ellison, is aiming to take a large stake in the sale of TikTok. Oh, yes, that's convenient. You know, I mean, this is just, this is like a... I mean, this is what happened

when the Soviet Union collapsed, right? Like, everybody got a taste. Uh-huh. And, but in defense of that country, things worked out great for them. Yeah, we got Chelsea Football Club, you know? We. Soccer appreciators, yeah.

Ball-knowers. Uh, yeah. It's, it's just, this is obviously a dark and challenging and tumultuous time. it feels particularly scary, I think, even when the most cynical, oh, but guardrails, people among us realize that, you know,

I think there was a thought that like, well, everything will keep chugging along because Wall Street really rules the roost, right? And if anything runs afoul of profits or shareholder value, then this whole misbegotten project will collapse. Yeah. I don't know if that's the case because the people who control Wall Street seem pretty psyched with what they're able to do now.

Yes. And turns out that might not have been the best guardrail. But, you know, at least Tim Cook had to sit there and watch the pit win. You know what I mean? We got to take the victories where we can. One of the major stories that came out this week that kind of got blown off the front pages or the main feeds of people out there. There is there. The whole season three renewal?

Robert Redford passed away. I'm sorry. I think that the Ringer... This podcast could contain multitudes. The Ringer podcast network will probably be diving deep into Robert Redford's life work legacy.

I just wanted to mention it and also mention my deep affection for the movies that he made and also a lot of what he stood for and his values. It's kind of strange, you know, he was seven years older than my mom.

and I think that generation of people has come in for a lot of criticism recently for staying in their homes, you know, and all that. But I do have to say that, like, I'm starting to get a little bit more romantic about some of the values that, like, people like Redford stood for. Obviously, it was just a giant movie star,

but tried to use a lot of his fame and the capital accrued from them. that, I think, to help other people. Some of the memorials about him, like you reposted Sterling Harjo's anecdote about him. I thought that was incredible. I know that, like, I read this old interview with Redford, or he's just talking about, like,

working on the Fruitvale Station script with Ryan Coogler and how, like, inspiring it is to, like, you know, be a part of the early days of someone's career. Yeah. And I think he felt a real, sense of responsibility for the continuation of the art form of filmmaking as much as the business of filmmaking and you know sundance is a really interesting story over the course of its of its lifespan but i think that it's pretty easy to locate redford as a really positive force in american culture

over the course of his life and and tell me missed i love that idea of the art form of filmmaking as more than where you hang the lights and where you point the cameras. Sure. Because he was from the West Coast, but a lot of his peers and contemporaries came up in, like, the actor studio and a sort of collectivist theater movement in New York

that explained certain ways on how you build character, how you are present in the scene, how you work with others. The biggest takeaway from that would be the sense of community, right? That creativity does not come necessarily from an actor sitting alone running a monologue in a trailer or, you know, know, a screenwriter being like, but wait, when do we reveal what Thunderbolts really means? More that, like, you build things together collectively from the ground up. And I think that aspect of Sundance has been almost overlooked as it became famous for the channel,

the film festival, the aesthetic, the idea that year after year, over the last few decades, he was just there, right? Greeting people who came in with scripts, with projects, giving support, writing little notes, being like, I enjoyed this film. Like, actually showing. up and not just like dropping a bag of cash and building a little amphitheater and walking away. Right. This was the work of the last few years.

In addition to being like for, I think even for us, right? Like we grew up slightly, we became movie aware slightly past his like 70s golden run. To me like the first Robert Redford movie is like the natural. That's the first movie I saw too. But I will never forget the way my mom talked about Robert Redford walking into the movie. about like, my takeaway was like, this is what a man should be and I have failed.

However, one day, I too will. No, but like both in terms of like his looks, his charisma, but also the way a movie hung on his shoulders, like a well-fitting suit. Yeah. It was very, very, very memorable.

And the fact that he was good for so many decades, like I made a Thunderbolt joke, but he was really good in Captain America. He was having a fun time being in endgame even, just a few years ago, reprising the role and reprising that scene. Do you have a, like, Mount Rushmore of Redfern? Yeah, they're not that complicated.

It's three days of the condors, the sting, all the presidentsmen. Of a more recent one, I would say spy game. Underrated. But, you know, I would highly recommend if you haven't, if you're listening to this and you've never checked this book out, Adventures in the Screen Trade, which is William Goldman's really dazzling, candid, witty tour through some of his, he's a famous screenwriter,

the late William Goldman, but he wrote about like his sort of his career in getting into movies and writing scripts and working with actors and all of his sort of observations about that. He had some mixed experiences with Robert Redford. Yeah, but writes very eloquently about Redford's participation and a project made it from an idea to a movie.

Yeah. And when you look at Redford's career, especially the 70s, but even, I think, to some extent, some of the stuff he did in the 80s and some of the things he did as a director, that's a guy who used his star power to make really interesting stuff. Yeah.

And we could use more people like that. Can I just give a personal shout out to two? For me, it's the Hot Rock, which is just an incredible 70s caper based on a Donald Westlake novel, him George Siegel, like at his most, like, swagged out, swagged out and charming. And then maybe my favorite film of all time is sneakers,

which is that really your favorite film of all time or you're just saying that. Like, it's in my, it is in my personal canon. It is in my top 10 of, like, movies that I just love on a molecular level. It makes me happy. I want more movies, more TV shows, more art to feel like that movie. I feel like it's sleepy appreciated, but not necessarily as celebrated.

I think there's a sneakers high of out there, but there should be bigger. There should be more movies like that. It's about a ragtag group of like proto-hackers, like kind of before hacking was hacking, like people who are hired. And Redford plays like a weather underground kind of guy who is now tried to come up with a new identity and is a computer security specialist. He is a rag-tag group featuring Sydney Poitier, River Phoenix, Dan Aykroy, David Strathair, and it's like they get hired to test the security of your company,

and then they get mixed up with the NSA. That might not be the NSA. And it turns out there are too many secrets. Not to spoil it. But, like, watching him and Poitier in that movie. It's awesome. Awesome. Yeah, there will probably be a lot of really cool stuff,

hopefully over the next couple of weeks on the pod network about Redford. And I didn't see this because I didn't stick with the show, but apparently he did make a cameo last season on Dark Winds. Oh, yeah. The very good. We just didn't stick with it, I think, Native American cop show that he was a producer on. Before we turn to our TV business today,

can I just make one, just like one procedural, like how we run things comment? Yes. Guy's ready. Guy's mic is on. So we love doing this podcast, and I think we've adapted well

towards the new reality of vertical video and, you know, and really having to like put our face where our mouth is in terms of our opinions and our takes. Yeah. One thing that I definitely did not understand fully, going in was how much our lives and our online careers are in the hands of Kai McMullen over here. We watch football together this weekend, Chris, and a few times we made

references to poor quarterbacks throwing hospital balls across the middle of the field with the receivers just like, I guess I got to go potentially die. I just really like saying hospital ball. I do. Yeah. I have noticed a trend that any time I raise my voice slightly and perhaps I'm critical in ways that I've been in the past on the podcast, old Kaia's scissorhands are here is ready, ready to just, just, just hanging me out to dry on a slant route against Fred Warner. I have to say, the thing that she doesn't do is kill you with the caption, because she could do another all caps unhinged. That's true.

Rand. So are you saying? Andy Greenwald about his arch nemesis Nate Bargazzi. I know with interest that the first 15 seconds of my monologue in which I said, I love Nate Bergetti and watch all of his comedy specials regularly. Boring! This box is fueled by hatred and vitriol. How am I supposed to know that Nate Bargazzi has stands like that?

Now, I don't know what he has because I have not, nor will I, for my own well-being. Look at the 600 comments? 600 people being like, I walk into the fire with you, brother. You've just said what I've always felt. That's just not the way it works. So yesterday, so since we had a really, I thought we had a good podcast on Monday. We had a fun bit where you were like, what would happen if we went into Lefty's Tap Room

the hangout, the watering hole of the Dark Hearts Motorcycle Gang? Fun back and forth, I did my character where I'm a bit of a pris. And I was like, let's have some rice lagers and everybody left. 18.4,000 views, respectable, right? I say that this was a disaster of an award show. We are approaching 600,000 views. The only clip. man.

And the five seconds where I was like, honestly, Oasis wasn't really good of a live band. And then the Lager lads found that. So I'm just saying, just. People like conflict. They like, I don't think people, most people are not on social media to like, I don't know. To agree? To agree.

Yeah. It's true. It's just interesting. I'm learning something that I think most people listening probably know, but I would say the body politic of America has learned too late, which is that there is just different audience. out there. And, you know, we had a really good podcast. I thought we made some good comments and some insights on task. Everything that I've monitored, my sources and the Five Eyes community, crickets.

Like, I haven't seen anyone be like, well, it was really thoughtful. But how would they communicate that to you? Well, you get emails. I don't know. All I know is that I said one thing, which I stand by it because that award show sucked. Careful. Over half a million people. I feel, listen. See? She's threatening me. There is a bit of internet parlance where it's something breaks contain. And basically it was... By the way, that should also be alien earth parlance.

They don't know who you are. They're just like, who's this asshole talking about my favorite comedian? That's fair. Yeah. A fellow fan. Do you see how, have you noticed how I'm kind of like the dude in World War I trench warfare who's like, we'll take this hill! And then like you go over the top.

And I'm like, ooh, hurt my hamstring. Have I noticed? It's never me who's doing the rants. I got got with James Cameron, though. Yeah, but that was, I don't know, that felt, it felt like you had the power of truth behind you. There was an initial layer of hell yeah, brother. I walk with you anywhere, CR, and then it was,

and then it turned into like, wait, who is this asshole? He hasn't even seen the movies. Right. So I get it, man. Like, I just feel like what's lost. I just feel like we've lost some nuance maybe in this country. Yeah. Is that possible?

Is that crazy? Don't clip that, you know? Don't get me in trouble. Don't hear you just clipping you calling. It's a kleptocracy. And then me being like, huh? You think? I'm just going to stitch together a few of your Kimmel stuff,

and then I think we'll be good for a couple weeks. I just, I'll plan the wedding for free now. Like, whatever. We work for her. Speaking of weddings. Did you have anything else non-show-related that you wanted to discuss on your shadow docket? No, we can move on.

The finale of the summer I turned pretty occurred this week. Oh, yes. I bring this up for a couple of reasons. Wedding, you know, obviously was a major element of the third season. Spoilers for the end of this, if you haven't. Is Kaya caught up? Consumed she hasn't, but she knows what happens. Okay, just don't piss her off.

And almost immediately after this show aired, which I have, I have my thoughts about the finale. I don't really know if I wanted, you know, if you need to hear them. It was, I thought, well done to a point. When it is like when there is a central relationship in a show that every single person, person and who's watching is like consumed by. I just don't need to see Jair's pop up. He's a cook, I heard. Yeah, he's a chef.

The hottest chef in Boston. Well, tallest, tallest dwarf, but all right. Clip that, Kaya. You're on. But, you know, set in Paris, Conrad shows up. He confesses his love again to her. What's funny is you're acting like in my household.

And she hisement's him for a while. What date of this premiere yesterday? It came out Tuesday at midnight Or so Wednesday at midnight. So do you know when it was playing at my house? 6 a.m. Yes. That is, there's two, there are two wolves here

and you either stay up late or you get up early. But the interesting part is just that they announced very quickly after the finale aired that they're going to be making a movie epilogue, I guess. This is probably good business for Amazon. I would say there's not a ton of ambiguity

about how the show ended in terms of who she chose and what state their relationship was in. If I had to guess, this will probably be more of like a fun reunion and like tying up loose ends than it would be like something tragic and or dramatic happens,

but I could be wrong. Do you know what the comparison ought to be, I think, for this? Sincerely, is Down Nabby. Because, down NAB as a franchise, Julie Fellows as a corrector. Yeah, good.

As a creator, I said creactor, which is collector, slash creator. In Trump's America, we're all creators. We are. He found a way to somehow keep the balloon afloat, even though... People just want to spend time with these people. In the world. And so it seems like Jenny Hahn has a sense of like, we can just keep them hanging out. We can put a few more problems in front of them, low-stakes obstacles.

And what did she say in the press release? like the next chapter of their journey. There's one major life, like, hallmark or life moment that we need to go through with belly. And I was like, this is when she finds out that she's been an agent for Treadstone this entire time. Hell, yes. I thought it was when Jair partners with his brother, Jason Bateman, who's a bit of a near-do-well, his other brother, on a restaurant in Lower Manhattan. Can I just recap a show I watched this week for you before we get to Alien and Black Rabbit?

I watched more shows. I watched a show this week, and I wanted to just describe the plot and see if it's something that might interest you. Cool. An Iranian nuclear scientist defects. A movie producer loses his star actress on the day of shooting and the biggest stunt in his film. The TV rights to the Olympic Games are put into jeopardy and an environmental disaster strikes.

Whoa. One guess. Just take a guess. The front page of the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday. No. Cents 8 by the Wachowski siblings. Nope. I'm out of guesses. The morning show, season four. Hell yeah.

I wondered if we were going to be talking about it. good use of the shadow docket. Good job. Possibly the most expensive show I've ever seen in my life. Now, they are no longer even pretending to be like in someone's apartment.

Like it's like gauzy like mat painting windows. Like I think that they've probably consolidated some of the production of this. But there literally are no non-famous people in this show anymore. Like it's just if they need someone to be someone's agent,

it's Will Arnett. If Marion Cotillard, who is in this show, needs a boyfriend, it's Aaron Pierre. You know? It's so wild. Jennifer Anderson's father, it's out there, Jeremy Irons. It's fucking crazy, dude. That's so, that is just... Every time you check your phone,

Jeremy Irons is like, yes! Oh, because of it's an Apple phone? So you think Tim Cook somehow got through the Emmys? Yeah, I think so. that's wild it does help me it does track with my previously held opinion that everyone is behaving

like its last call at the money bar and like this is all ending scene so we got to get there quickly but like I honestly admire them for being like well we could keep this as like a kind of soapy office drama about these two women who respect each other

but are constantly like rival are also rivals and instead they're like what has to happen is Alex Levy, who's Jennifer Aniston's character, needs to facilitate the defection of an Iranian nuclear scientist and his gymnast daughter. And it has to happen at Jennifer Anderson's TV studio interview.

Do you feel like there was a meeting of like the local chapter of SAG or like the Broadway Actors Alliance where they were like, great news, like morning show is going to film in New York. And like there was a moment when they thought it was going to be law and order for them where they were like Jennifer Anderson needs a father and like beloved that guy character actor, Peter Garrity, was just like, Papa's going to work one more time flying Jeremy Irons on a private plane.

Yes. That's cool. The only other thing that I heard about this season was that I believe, is this correct, that it said in 2024, but it's not about that? Like, there's no election going on? So far, it's about the Olympics

and the Olympic coverage. Let's keep focused. Casey Wasserman's thrilled. That's awesome. Paris Olympics. No, I know. He wants the story focused on the beautiful Olympic flame

and how it goes from one location. Yes, I'm sure that the season will end with the Olympic flame riving in Los Angeles. Tom Cruise brought it here. Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. It was a simpler time. Maybe he'll make an appearance on the morning show.

You have done something in the past where you have, like, you have a couple scratch-off tickets that you can use. And, like, one of them is to make me watch something. And it has to do with nuclear scientists defecting. Well, I leaned in at that point. Yeah. But you used it for me to watch the January 6th episode of the morning show? Yes. We'll monitor the situation.

If you need me back on this for anything, I'm willing. I stay up later than Greenwald. That's true. My wife and I have several shows that we watch together. Morning show is one of them. It just is a great conversation starter. Clearly, look at us. Just look at this banter.

What do you think? Do you think that gymnast should have defected on television? Anyway, that's what I've been doing. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back, and we'll talk about alien Earth. Black Rabbit. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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Oh, I think we should do Alien because we've been talking about it. Black Rabbit people may be in various places in the viewing since it came out last night. If you want to timestamp us, I don't think we're, I don't think Black Rabbit Season 1 has reached Summer I turn pretty finale status

in most households. Yeah. It's not BC, as we say. Okay, so Alien Earth, Episode 7, it's called Emergence. It was written by Noah Hawley and Marina Melnick, and it was directed by Dana Gonzalez, Holly's oftentimes collaborator. Let's do this. Let's start here.

Why is this show making me such a fucking hall monitor? Why am I such a narc about this? Because I like to think, what I don't want is for all TV criticism to be pointing out logical flaws in plot. You know, be like, well, how would he do this? Or why would they do that? Or what's happening here? Like, this doesn't make any sense.

Like, I don't think that's really a useful way to think about culture or art is just to constantly be nitpicking like that. And I think the reason why I do it with this show specifically is because I don't think that there are any real people in it. Right. So if the characters aren't exhibiting any consistent, kind of behavior that reaches me or touches me or

moves me or I connect with, then you really are kind of dependent on the showmaking some kind of sense. Now, this was the penultimate episode. There could be reveals in the finale next week that explains some things. I think that

I was holding on hope that, on the hope that the Timothy elephant character, Kersh, was somehow orchestrating some of this, was a double agent. And he could be He's a little slippery. He's still slippery. He could be working for himself.

But I think that the reason why, when I see the first scene of this episode, and it's somehow occurred that slightly, one of the young synths has, hybrids, has dragged a... Adult man. Comatose body of Arthur with a facehugger on it through a ventilation shaft. supposedly down a hallway and into his room and without showing like,

oh, is there anybody in the hallway? Like, was he not monitored? I guess at this point now, Kersh is kind of like consolidating all of the observation of these people and deciding when to say something went wrong. But there's that,

there's kind of the rather brute force way Morrow decides to like take the island, which is like walk through the front door. there's a lot of moments like that where I find myself basically like fixating on whether or not something makes sense

instead of whether or not it feels right. Totally. So I guess it feels wrong, is what I'm saying. I'm not mad about this, but I think that I'm just trying to kind of unwind like when I'm watching a TV show, I don't want to be like, hey, stop running on the side of the pool.

I think, I mean, look, once a lifeguard, always a lifeguard, so I don't blame me for it. I think that there are a lot of knits to pick. I think when a character says, we're going to be late, we have to hurry. And then when you see that character again, and he's taking the time to build a wooden raft to transport a corpse. I also thought those guys were like super strong. Yes.

They could probably just carry him. What's up at that? Similarly, the high security lab is the most trafficked place and the most used set in the show. It is equivalent to the break room with the vending. machines on the office in terms of how many people are there on top of each other at any given time. That beggars belief a little bit. I think the point you made that's really worth returning to is the show only works if its central conceit delivers. And the central conceit of the show,

which again, construction-wise, I think is very, very smart and admirable and potentially wise, which is what can you do with this franchise over eight episodes with more. more in-depth exploration of it. And I think Noah looked at the history of the movies and saw that it's not just that there's xenomorphs and Ripley's. There are also synths and half people, half man, half machine. And what, and which, you know, really are people too,

as we've learned over the last decade. God bless them all. And what is the thematic string to pull within that? And I think the answer, especially when you bring aliens to Earth, is what does it mean to be human? which is a very, very broad, but very, very often rewarding question to ask in any art form.

I think that the show has struggled to answer that question in any affecting emotional way, which is a bummer. Now, I would also say that it's an interesting assignment for a filmmaker like Noah, who is so incredibly talented at so many different parts of the television-making storytelling process.

I would say respectfully that from the work of his that we've enjoyed the most and that we've celebrated the most, whether it's the first two seasons of Fargo or Legion, which I was lucky to work in a very small capacity on in the first season of, the best characters are usually the most extreme. They are avatars of points of view, of zeitgeist, of thematic intent, of, of, of politics, of culture, they are very rarely just a person trying to get through their day. Now, you could argue quibble point by point, you know, whether it's like Alison Tolman's cop in the first season.

I was going to say, sure. Is also the most like Marge from Fargo the movie. They are. That is the one that it's like, but what about Allison Tolman? It's like, but you could say that that is like almost direct adaptation in some indirect adaptation. Well, it's what he does best, which is it's a tribute to something we've seen, used in a way that maybe we haven't seen before.

You know, this is, I want to be very clear, because I can feel Kai's hands moving towards the edit button, that like the ability to do that, to do television storytelling on a very high thematic level is very, very hard. But I find it less rewarding in this show when the most human moments available, again, because of maybe the real estate that you have in eight episodes,

the budget expense, the storytelling, weight, the fucking alien that has to go ham every episode and a half of the eyeball. That's Peter Garrity, by the way, in a big suit. God bless him, 85 years young, still nimble. When then the most human moment is like Dame Sylvia like scrolling through photos of her husband on her iPad. Yeah, but that's the problem with that is that she just blithely was like, like their marriage is weird.

Like it's interesting and like we should hear about it because they are a married couple who are also. Respectfully were. there were a married couple who supervised this great leap forward in scientific research and development, right? And apparently child free by choice, but are parental figures for these lost boys. And they had a crucial disagreement about what is moral and ethical about what they were doing, what they were being asked to do by their bosses. And instead of having a debate between the two of them, or a scene, a beat,

a moment. Dame Sylvia is just like, I'll do it. And Arthur's like, no. And then they're like, you're fired. Get out. And she's like, oh, well, you know, like, there's no kind of like, there's no realistic, like, emotional in exchange between two of the only humans we have. Yes.

And then when you do see feints toward or. And so when she's scrolling, I'm like, why? You didn't, she just saw him 10 minutes ago and didn't care. Well, I assume that when I leave. you've worked today, you will spend a few moments before recording another podcast, just looking at old pictures of me. Hopefully I have a better gastrointestinal experience later.

That guy got canceled. Honestly, likely. Like the scene on the beach, like in Arthur's few moments. When he's like, I love you, or we love, you know. I thought that was very affecting and very sweet through... Do you say I love you? Am I making that up? I think that's just like,

he's like, one have a catch. Kids? you're like, the screen got really blurry there. Dana Gonzalez did a bad job focusing. Anyway. No, it's very sweet, and like the hand holding was also a nice, like, a touch, and it was well-performed. It's not very much. We don't get very much of that.

I think that moment was very sweet and added something new to a mythos that usually is limited to two hours and is much more extreme and about, are you alive or are you getting got? Yeah. And the ratio of those things, it does feel, it does feel perpetually out of whack. I did have a question just like, what do you think Arthur is like? It's really hot in Thailand. It's pretty sweaty.

And he has spent, I don't know how much time in a vent with an absolutely disgusting space squid with its, like, I don't know what part of it jammed down his throat. And then it comes off of his face. and he's just like, hey guys. Well, that's what John Hurt does, an alien. No, I know. I know there's precedent. Yeah. I guess I'm just wondering, like, hygiene-wise.

Like, do you think he's, like, does he smell like an aquarium at this point? Like, what's the... It's not like, or the hybrids, they're not like, oh, you stink. Because they're polite. Well, I have questions about all the different, like, levels of expertise that the hybrids have. Sure. So, like, Wendy is a super soldier who can speak alien. Mm-hmm.

Isaac is like downloading all scientific information ever. Was. And Curley is trying to catch him in the AP PowerP pole. But then there's like three kids who were like, I'm an idiot. What's like, right? I have a stuffed animal and like these other two. Like, what do they do? Do they have jobs?

Why does Isaac and Curley have to like... First of all, if you're the kind of guy who's like, why aren't these kids having jobs? you're going to do great in the next five to ten years. You were born at the right time. There's a position of power waiting for you in the Department of Labor. Secondarily, that's really funny. Like, I think that you could...

Wouldn't you be like... I guess maybe there's only like a 50% hit rate on this new technology. Right. But wouldn't you be like put those three back in the lab and like up their juice? I would say that there is kind of a lack of... of infrastructure. You know, we've read a lot in the last two weeks about how it might not be that young quarterbacks fail their team. It might be that the team fails their quarterback. Yeah, it's true. So it's very possible that they did the hybrid thing on like for Caleb Williams's.

You know what I mean? Like all the tools in the world on paper, but you get him in the room. By the way, Arthur is big Shane Waldron vibes. Okay. I've learned recently not very confrontational. Yeah. So I can sort of see that. So maybe they're, so maybe they, They just aren't ready to step up. When you have a multi-billion dollar corporation, or let's call it a league that is expecting them to really carry the day. Then I guess the next, what's the next version of this? Putting them into the tower in episode one is like having a rookie player. But if you're a boy cavalier, don't you hire the shanny of robots?

Like, don't you hire the Kyle Shanahan of robot development who's just like, I can take any fucking robot and turn him into? No, because if you're boy cavalier, you hire four people. and then you just walk around barefoot all day. Yeah. It is just, it's just, it's asking a few too many things to hold together. Yeah. You know, like the idea of like who's keeping track of who, when at any moment, like, it doesn't feel fair for an audience to be doing this calculation, all these calculations.

Like, Kersh, eye padding it around being kind of in charge, took some of the stink off of it for a little bit. Mm-hmm. But it does reach a point where it's just hard to keep track of who is keeping track of anyone at any time. Wendy can turn on them and be like, you shouldn't have done that and then leave. And they can all look at each other and be like, oh, I hope she's not mad. Too bad we can do nothing to stop her, even though we have a big button marked stop Wendy. And she just depowers, right? Or whatever.

I think the idea there is that like Wendy is just up against the line of like you guys might not be able to stop her. Because I don't think they have a remote control that just shuts her down, do they? Wouldn't you? Yeah, I would have a kill switch for sure. Yeah. These guys, I mean, there are the, you know, Cavalier is right there in his name. I suppose it is. Move fast and break things.

Look, and it's the kind of thing where for the first two years, your offensive system like dazzles the league, and the next thing you know, you're going to play the bills in a make-or-break game, and you might be the ex-coach, the Miami Dolphins. You watch Morning Show, I read The Athletic, and this is where we meet. I want to talk to you a little bit about what has been characterized in the press as the big moment of the episode, which is fair enough.

It's the finale, like the concluding couple of minutes where Hermit, Wendy, and Nibbs are trying to escape the island. By the way, that's just a little boat. That's not even like a GoFast boat.

No, I mean, I don't even know where they are or what civilization beyond this new Siam looks like. The Wayland people just kind of walked there, it looks like. I know. They just swam. They're trying to get off this boat. It turns out hermit going around to everybody on the island and being like, is there a boat? Can I get it? Do you have the code? I'd like to get my sister off of this island? Yeah, loose lips sunk. The ship was fine.

Ship was fine. I guess Nibbs wasn't fine. Lose lips sink nips. So basically, like as they're trying to get off this island and get to the dock, it turns out that Wendy has pretty decent control over a xenomorph and can instruct it to kill, hide, follow, save them, whatever. There's a fight on the boat where they're trying to get off

and Hermit's old compatriots try to stop them. At one point it looks like Nibs is going to kill one of hermits' colleagues and hermit stuns her with a gun but it seems like it kills her.

he does the electric thing that I think works on xenomorphs. Right. And she seemed real messed up by that. She did. Yeah. Wendy is like what did you do? What did you do? Which seems like the strange question. I think it's very clear what he did.

I think the idea is Wendy is viewing this as like it's us against everybody. And there's no distinctions, which I suppose you could say would be a human trait, although we haven't really seen a ton of that in humanity. recently. You can make some distinctions between like, well, these people work for these people.

It's just following orders or whatever. But what did you make at the moment? And did you feel like it hit the dramatic heights that I think it was supposed to? No. I found it all a little muddled and confusing. Which is weird because it's shot in broad daylight. Which is also maybe not the right choice. I don't know. Let's walk it back a couple steps. Like, again, in terms of like your security in terms of your security protocols and what works in a two-hour movie versus an eight-hour show, having creating hybrids who can touch monitors

and do anything does seem like a God-level cheat code that is pretty tough to work your way out of. So she touches a screen and frees the xenomorph and then off it goes. I guess at that moment, she has made a decision, Wendy, about what's important

to her, which is, like what you said, right? It's just them getting off the island. Everybody else can... Right. I was going to say live with it, but it's actually the reverse. Die with it, yeah. When they are then confronted in their journey... And by the way, I should say that the scene where they saw their gravestones was a good scene.

That was another, like, a moment that was like evocative, thoughtful, and paid off its premise. Then the whalen goons come out of the marsh grasses. They're wearing their gilly suits. and Wendy does a dog whistle and the alien comes in wreck shop. Duolingo does wonders. I get so many passive-aggressive-aggressive duolingo messages because my daughter used my email to join Duolingo and has embarked on language journeys on four different languages.

It is pissy. They got to start being a lot nicer to you because you know, like the AirPods now can translate. Oh, so wait. So who should be nicer to me? Like, dualingo should be like, hey, we would love for you to just hang out with us a little bit more again. Like, you're such a good time instead of like we're really disappointed that you haven't kept your streak alive. Seems like you don't really want to learn French.

Caldomage. Why are you looking at Kaya? She knows that's French just because she was in Italy recently. Look here. Eyes here. Hey, come on. Anyway, I like that you're just sort of low-key threatening duolingo. like they're about to be taken out of business.

The daylight thing, it wasn't so much to me that the xenomorph didn't look a little goofy in the daylight. It was when the xenomorph is walking over to Wendy and what should be kind of a cool scene. And there have been moments, at least in my memory of the alien franchise, where Ripley has come very close to alien.

Especially in resurrection. Yes, exactly. When the alien recognizes a little bit of itself in her, right? Quite literally, yes. Yes. So that moment. So there's a little bit of echo to that,

much like, and Noah's really good at these sort of, like sort of recognition echoes throughout the work that he adapts or iterates from. My eye was drawn to Joe, to Hermit, to Alex Lothar's character, who I think is, he's one of the most exciting young actors out there. I love everything he does from End of the fucking world to Howard's End to Andor. Excited to see him playing a different kind of role. So this is in no way, Kaya, a criticism of Alex Lothar. But if you watch him in that scene.

Start record. My main takeaway was he does not know what he's playing here or he hasn't been told what he's playing because he looks a little confused, a little worried, and it's like what actually is the character playing? He is face to face with a space monster that tried to kill him multiple times, not this specific one, but you know what I mean,

punctured his lung and is generally something that one should avoid. He's also protective of his sister. And now it's walking up to his sister and being friends of them and also has just violently massacred people in front of him and he is a medic. This is like run,

this is antithetical to his whole core belief system. Yeah. He's like, what do I do here? So then when the B side to that story is now other people are going to murder

other soldiers, again, with no distinction between who is who and he's just like, I want people stop killing people and she's like, what did you do?

He shot his girl, right? Her girl. Yeah. Right. But he, we know, I guess fundamentally, I don't think it is leading a question.

One of the more interesting ideas that the show put into play, and I don't know if I found that it either intellectually or visually met the moment. But I still respect the fact that it kicked this around is what is it that would make Wendy Marcy? What does she retain other than some references to culture? We used to watch Ice Age together. Do you remember that? That would make it her. and would Alex know the difference?

And that is, Hermit, know the difference. And that's why Kirsch and Cavalier keep him on the island in the first place is to basically do a kind of stress test. Stress test of like, is she recognizable to this person? Like, would that be? And I think there is that line where it's like if she, if it's not recognizable to the family, then what we have is a very expensive failure, right?

Yes. I thought that that just got I think maybe the fact that that got swallowed up into an action sequence was maybe why we both are reacting the same way which is like I just don't know

if that moment hit as hard as it was supposed to because it's there's a lot of like confusing developments and furthermore I think by that point in the episode I was starting to be like so there's a hundred soldiers on this island who can surround the five or ten guys that Yutani sent,

but they were not around for the containment of aliens or the securing of hybrids. So then that leads me to wonder, like, is the experiment really, like, how are these hybrids interacting with these Xenors? But I actually think, like, I've gotten past that, and I'm just like, that's not, there is not a master conspiracy going on in this show.

There is a, this is what you see is what you get. You're asking, I think that's very well framed, I think it's very generous interpretation, and I think it's very, I get that. That makes sense to me. And again, with the show, conceptually, I am on board for it. It's in terms of execution. Like, I did not find it to be a particularly enjoyable hour of television because of the way there were so many, there's so much turbulence in terms of the experience with watching it.

There are moments, like the moment when Cavalier quizzes the sheep eyeball on pie. That's sick. That's like really cool. It's a great scene. It's executed. It's shot well. Like it's creepy. It's disturbing.

When the show hits, the show hits. But it does not have a fluidity or a flow in terms of in a in a way that makes it a week to week compelling, pleasurable experience. I think it's because it falters on the human moments that usually stitch together the bigger, that can stitch together, not just stitch together the big ideas, but also paper over some. some of the granular inconsistencies that truly you and I don't care about. It's that we keep feeling them or the shape of them or bumping against them. Like the last point to make on that

is probably the Moro-Kirsch collision, which sort of upends what we thought was happening. Yeah, I think we thought... I was like, oh, is Kirsch, is he a double agent? Is he working for Wayland? Or is he, or was luring Morrow there always the goal? But also how on top of it is Kersh to the point where he is aware that a chestburster is about to come out of Arthur,

and he can just trap it in the open field? Yeah. It's like a Cooper Gene tackle, by the way. It seems like they are actually, like, quite adept at containing those aliens. So that's what leads me to believe, like, whatever damage the aliens are doing, they are aware of it and allowing it to happen because they could end it whenever they want it. Like, those guys went in and took care of the fly in, like, five seconds. Can I make a pitch for what I want the last scene of the last episode to be?

Sure. I would like it to be Wendy at a cafe some years in the future. And she looks at another table in the cafe and she sees the xenomorph there. And it's just having lunch and he goes, I think that's a great idea. Wouldn't that be nice? You should write television. Because then the alien is enjoying the fruits of earth, cafe culture.

That's another thing is like, don't let that fucking alien get off the island. Is that your advice? Well, because you're just going to make me so mad about like, so Ellen Ripley just lived her whole life and like didn't know that aliens were in Thailand. Hmm. Well, I mean, was she well traveled? I don't know. I'm just saying. It's like, we're like, I'm okay with him being like Prometheus and Covenant didn't happen. Right. But I hope that the aliens stick to this part of Earth.

Well, I think that the point. And don't mess with like alien and aliens and like what they're about. No, I think the point you've been making from the beginning is a good one, which is we haven't really heard about this place. Sure. Sure. Or this company. Yeah. Right. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Black Rabbit. Okay. The entire season, eight episodes dropped on Netflix last night.

I believe we both watched the first two. Stars Jason Bainman and Jude Law as two middle-aged brothers in New York City. Jake is Jude Law, and Jake is a successful, if stretched-thin restaurant tour, while Vince is a falling star, you could say, scratching together, get-rich-quick schemes, and trying to stay ahead of his nefarious... creditors. He's a guy in debt. And his own demons.

Yeah, for sure. When Vince unexpectedly turns up in New York City on the night of Jake's restaurant, on the night that Jake's restaurant is to be reviewed by the New York Times, things start to change for both brothers. I told you, old media still matters. And for what it's worth, this is written by Zach Baylon and who wrote Creed 3 and Grant Tarismo and the Order, which is a movie both of us liked. and King Richard, which was nominated for an Academy Award for,

along with Kate Sussman, who's his creative and I believe life partner. The first two episodes are directed by Bateman, the ones that we're going to be talking about. There is a middle block handled by Laurelini. Crazy. And the final two are directed by Justin Kurtzl. So a lot of talent involved. Who's both an awesome director,

the Long Road to the North? Is that the name of the show that we watched? And the order. And his life and creative partner is Essie Davis, who plays Dame, what's her name? Sylvia? Yeah. Well, it's really all one big show.

This crazy thing called life. You go first. Me? I'll go first. Really liked it. Okay. Really liked this. I think that this is a very nostalgic show for me in terms of it being about one of my favorite cities

and about going out and going to restaurants and going to bars and own people money, you know? Like spotted pig after hours. Even the way it's constructed, you know, I think because Bateman directed it and because it's on Netflix and because this is his first major television work, I think, since Ozark, there's going to be a lot of Ozark comparisons. Right. And I think it's slightly more,

it's paced in a more stately way than Ozark was, which isn't to suggest that it's stately. It's just not the, holy shit, a season's worth of stuff just happened in the first 15 minutes of Ozark. but I will hear and understand tons of criticisms of it

there's no reason for these episodes to be an hour and eight minutes long there is definitely some flab but I think that my level of enjoyment both for Bateman's performance just enjoying Jude Law

being like an ambitious hot shot restaurant tour and the setting and the Mayu milieu milieu Well, that's what happens when dualingo just goes by the way. I think he directed. Tone and the Barbarian,

by the way, John Milia, I believe. Yeah, that's good. That's why you don't have me on that podcast anymore. You should replace me. I enjoyed the first two episodes. I enjoyed them. I got some positives for you. It's not going to be what you think it's going to be for me.

Based on your text messages? Yeah. Well, I mean, I hate pilots, man. Pilots are tough. And I'm glad I watched. We can talk about the big sin of this pilot. We can talk about that, and we will. I'm glad I kept going.

It, did temper some of my feelings about it. Has that ever happened before? Never. First time. But I'm still learning, you know. I think the... I wish me at Instagram for when you did your Barbie trailer rant.

Don't know what you're talking about. Don't give her ideas. Yeah. We give her... There's too much free time for to find this stuff while we're recording. There are things, there are definite things that I like about the show. first and foremost being like Jason Bateman's a very charming

and charismatic actor and I think it's also fun that he has, after such a long career and you know, the child actor, darker times, research and everything like that, has grabbed the reins of his creative opportunities to the degree that he not only can shepherd

a project like this, get it onto Netflix, direct it, but choose the juicier, darker part for himself to give himself opportunities that maybe casting directors wouldn't. I also like the new, Yorkiness of it. I think as a fan of both restaurants and the New York Times restaurant reviews, this world is ripe for some sort of storytelling. And there are moments when I think the show does take advantage of it, both in terms of like very, very smart actual, smart but legitimate observations

like restaurants are nightclubs for adults, which is how Vince pitches the Black Rabbit as a concept to his brother in the flashback that starts the second episode. But also there's just- My club's technically for adults as well, since you have to be a certain age to get into them, but be that as it may. Well, I think people who, you know, who we're- Age out of going to the club. In some ways, yes. I think that there are moments like that take full advantage of it. Like there's a shot in the second episode where the hoodlums who are pursuing Vince say, we should tell him he's not coming, talking about Vince.

And they go into like a Turkish bath or a Russian bath in the Lower East Side. And the camera just follows them on this like labyrinthine route all the way down to a sub-basement, which is even more claustrophobic into a hidden office. And that idea that you can have living in New York that the city folds in on itself and it's like an MC Escher picture of rooms onto rooms into stairways and the stairways, each with hidden meaning and hidden access,

is very exciting and very compelling, even if I've never really been a Schiff's kind of guy. I haven't either. You ever did that in your day? Some people still swear by it, but we don't have them on this podcast, so we'll move on. All of that, I'm fine with.

Yes. I think that one of the things that I found the most jarring about the pilot, I don't even want to characterize it as a negative. Like, this is actually a good thing for Netflix, because Netflix's business model is so savvy, or maybe its algorithm is so savvy, that this show works. I mean that, like, without judgment.

It is absolutely tailor-made to show up on the screen as an autoplay, or if you like, when people finish Ozark. Or bloodlines or like damages, which it kind of reminds me of like earlier century. This is what I was going to say. It is no sin to do a cover version in a very recognizable key for people because that is a proven pleasure spot. And the show will deliver on that in terms of like the rising stakes and the backstabbing and the mystery inside of the mystery. All that makes sense to me. I wrote, there was something about the first 15 minutes of the show that I was like, oh,

this is super pre-woke television. And what I mean by that in the same joking way that the guy I love on Instagram, James Dimitri, who reviews greasy spoon fryups in London, and if they serve any bread that's not like buttered white toast, he calls it woke toast. This is what I meant in the sense that the show starts with a man looking in a mirror

like cleansing himself before putting it on for a crowd and everyone's sexy and there's violence, those guns. And then something goes crazy, and then it stops and says, one month earlier. Yes. And I said, no. As it was beginning, I was like, this is a good fucking show. Exactly. I was like, I was playing the Walkman, and it's doing something really radical.

It's starting us in the shit. Why wouldn't a show do this? And then it did the thing that I think finally now, development executives are hitting pause on. Like, this has gone too far. If they just started the show with Jude Law peeling himself off the cot in the back of the Black Rabbit and tonight's the big night, all of that information is conveyed beautifully. I agree. Obviously, you are given this insight into... A, a crime is going to be committed at a certain point, probably many of them, and B, someone is going to get shot, but also that you can see that the restaurant has reached an even higher echelon of success than it had previous, you know, after this New York Times review that's sort of like the culmination of the first episode. But they just take the gas, they just, they deflate the balloon with going back a month.

It just started the month earlier. Like, nobody needs the gunshot to be like, I guess I'll keep watching Jason Bateman and Jew Law run around New York City. I hope if any development executives do listen to this podcast, please take that note from us. Like, it is absolutely, I've been in those meetings, I've gotten those notes that in the attention economy that we have, we have to start with the most fraught moment possible. But then if the most fraught moment possible for your show, timeline-wise occurs one week later, three months into your story and you have all this throat clearing to do, maybe reconsider the show.

Yeah. Maybe just start where the story starts or where the story ought to start and see how it flows from there. Broadly speaking, I found the word that I wrote, and again, this is not a criticism of the entertainment and engagement of it because when I watched the second episode, I was like, I could 100% see myself just binging this on a flight. There's nothing wrong with it. These are good actors. it's high production values and it's loosely in a world that I'm interested in that drops enough like okay Danny Meyer or like

oh mixed use in Murray Hill and I'm like ooh yes go on like I get that that is appealing but regardless I did write down that I found this like phony baloney in the sense that like it is humorless

it indicates everything I think Bateman can be funny in this Bateman is a charming and funny performer but my main takeaway I was like, why am I finding this, like, very, like, determinative and, like, heavy and, you know, serious in a way that I found oppressive as opposed to Task, which I love, which, you know, DJ Grasanova, aside, is also darkly lit and heavy and heavy and being, like, my family is broken, yeah. And I have to say, like, these are apples and oranges, so it might not be fair to compare them, although they are both fruit, that I have the sense when I watch Task that Brad Inglesby, who created it, has been in these kitchens. He has been in these rooms. He has wrestled with some religious morality struggles in his life. And there is a patina of authenticity to it.

Sure. You know, inside of these rooms. When I watched the first two episodes of Black Rabbit, I felt that there was a lot of authenticity into the movies Jason Bateman and everyone else had watched to make the show. Like Jude Law in this, I love Jude Law as an actor. And I don't begrudge Jude Law wanting to be in some version of Michael Clayton and Mean Streets. I don't know if I buy him doing that,

but I respect his right to be the guy in those movies. And it's just a framing thing of, you know, do you, when they go to their late mother's house and they're like, we have to sell this or whatever, it looks beautiful. It's lit beautifully. It looks like it has good bones, you know, which I think is inaccurate to what the house does in the story,

but the aesthetics of the shot matter more in that moment than the storytelling to me. That's interesting. I didn't mind that scene. I think that... It's a good scene. Brothers are good in the scene. I think you're touching on something where it's like...

The authenticity thing is really interesting. And whether or not you're imitating the art that you love rather than the life you want to depict, I find the two brothers, one who's spiraling out quite publicly in all of the ways that you would normally say, like, this guy is in trouble. He owes money. He doesn't have a phone.

He doesn't have any cash. he's, you know, basically got a scarf fast food wherever he can to get a meal. He has some sick layers, though. And I know that makes you sympathetic. And it probably could put that Sonic Youth T-shirt on Deepop and do quite well for himself. What about his black denim jacket?

But Jude Law, who is by all, you know, like all hallmarks of success is a successful person. Sure. Is also like, I have crisis after crisis after crisis. Yep. And has confusing, you know, perhaps other, like, crimes that we are not quite clear on

because in the first two episodes, there's this whole thing with the bartender who refuses to come back to work. It seems like we are, I mean, I made a joke probably shouldn't have, like to misbehavior in bad behavior, rapacious, actually criminal behavior in the restaurant world over the last 10 years.

Don't know I haven't watched past two episodes. It seems intentional if there are some spotted pig. Black Rabbit seems like a lot like a spotted pig, which was the hot spot. where celebrities and musicians both invested in and partied. And then it was revealed sometime later that the restaurant show behind it was up to no good. Yeah. And like the Spotted Pig,

I think that one of the cool things that they've done with Black Rabbit is like, there's always another room that you can't get into, you know? Yes. Like Spottie Pig had like these tiered kind of like private dining rooms upon private dining rooms. And it was like, to your point about the MC Escher quality of it, like you'd go into this thing and then it would just be like, Well, I'm here. I can't get that level.

And then even the person in that level can't get upstairs. I can eat this burger here and, you know. Sadly, take a picture of it on my iPhone 6. But Bono is upstairs right now, but I don't even know where the stairs are. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I think it gets a lot of that right. So basically what I think is like it maybe is more truthful than it is authentic.

Like I like the way the characters are pit against one another but also have affection for each other. I read an interview with Bateman and Law where they were talking about like the durability. of brothers and family as like a dramatic structure because it's like you can break up marriages, you can break up friendships, but ultimately family, you're always connected, whether it's through your dead mother

or whatever it is. Like you've got like this connective tissue. And when the second episode began and it was yet another flashback, the first episode starts with a flash forward, the second episode starts with the flashback, I was like, this is cool. We're going to get a little bit more

and I thought that flashback in the first second episode. actually was like, this is neat. You can see an earlier version of Bateman. You can see two guys who think they're basically at the same kind of point in their lives. One's going to go down, one's going to go up. Why did that happen?

And then there's the music video of them in early 2000s. Are they four kids kind of band? Longwave vibes. Yeah, yeah. You know, like kind of like post strokes, new rock, whatever. But they actually make the video, which was a bold choice.

And now, sadly, because it means we're old, that era is as far away from our current moment than as CBGB's was for when we were living in New York at first. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

So us talking about this is kind of like old us, like people older than us talking about Spike Lee's Summer of Sam when it came out. And I was like, whoa, look at Adrian Brody's hair. That's crazy. That was like 20 years before the movie came out. That's fun to think about. Thank you.

Well, you keep watching. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was all the way out at the beginning, but then when it settled into what it is, which it does sound like I'm actually in debt to Troy Kotzer from Kota when I say this. I'm not. Like, I see the shape of it,

and there's no shame in being a very high-class version of a type of crime show. There's enough on the margins that make it, that kind of make it compelling. Is there a writer's room, for the need to put a mystery or a something to solve on top of what would just be like a character drama there's not even a term for it it's just the industry now like you need to have like who's robbing the black rabbit yes as like okay like we get piecemeal stories what are we what do we why it's not it used

to be I think how do we get people to watch the next episode and now is how do we get people not to turn away and you have to front load everything I mean, this is true. Look, this is the same sensibility that Kaya brings to our Instagram page. Day after day. What's sticky? You know what I mean?

Like, what can we, how can we really drive the conversation? So I get that. I just wish that there was a structure where there was more to sink into. Yeah, I just, I mean, I... But it's relatively big stars. It's a limited series intentionally. Zach Baylon is a film writer

and, you know, TV can be a different animal. It doesn't need to be. There's opportunity for it to be. And it's fine to deliver something that's straight down the middle that doesn't surprise. But there's an element when I watch the show that might keep me from watching it more.

It's like when Vince goes back, I don't know if he's in Queens or Brooklyn and he goes to the bar that like it's the one place that doesn't sell $50 fucking hamburgers anymore. And the guy who's the bartender there is that guy. They're like, who's like, Who's the actor? He was in Ozark, yeah.

He's in everything being that guy, and God bless him. He should work. He's our next Peter Garrity. I love him. But, like, there's a moment when it's like, you could surprise, but instead you comfort. The Troy Cotser part where the criminal mastermind is deaf, like, that's a surprise moment. Yeah. And aesthetically, it's like, it's cool.

That came out of nowhere, and I leaned in. Chris Coy, who's one of the guys, one of the hoods. Yeah. I'm just. just Cheryl over here. Chris Coy plays one of the... That could be a new way of us recapping episodes.

At that point, I leaned out. But then I leaned in, you know? When Grasanova came in? Ford's worth, I watched television from a rocking chair. Sure. So it's a constant back and forth. Chris Coy, who plays one of the tufts

who's standing behind the guy who's the son of Troy Cotster, did a lot of scenes with Tom Pelfrey in Banshee, a show I still think you should check out. I will. They had a big confrontation. It was very good. It was like a huge fight?

that's yes I leaned in to that confrontation which is to say I thought that was pretty sick last thing on black rabbit we don't know how brothers are to each other we're as close as we're going to get probably what is there ever a world in which I would emerge from arrivals blinking into the new york sunlight and you're just waiting for me we've had no text message what airport is that is that what it's like there now my thing was more like where do they let you wait at all well if you have you have you have a Jaguar, vintage jag like Julie. It's not just that. It's like, remember the Seinfeld thing? Like, I'm not driving you to the airport. Like, this goes beyond driving someone to the airport. This is sending a ticket into the ether, assuming someone got on the plane because that person doesn't have a phone.

And then picking them up. Just waiting until they emerge. Yeah. We don't know what kind of airport arrival Vince is. Maybe he needs to go to the bathroom. Maybe he checked a bag. Sure. Skis.

He could be an oversized luggage. He came from Reno. There are ski trails up there. It's Tahoe Adjase. That's what I'm saying. Like, that was... You ask the right questions, man. You always do.

Which was more plausible. Jude Law doing that for his brother, sight unseen at an airport, or Jude Law's entire family being big Nets fans. That is fucking hilarious, but I think accurate to, like, new money in New York. I agree. I think that that was a knowing thing

when he's like, because who loves the Nets? And I think the internal joke is, no one, but everyone who lives kind of park slope adjase, who's just like, I don't know what to do with these kids. My company has net tickets.

Like, let's go. Yeah. Don't you love our team featuring Michael Porter Jr.? Michael? Everybody's a podcaster. Thanks for joining me today. Did I have an op? What do you mean joining you?

Thanks to Kai. Who's coming on in second hour? My guest's Brendan Carr. There it is. Joining me. Thanks so much for joining. We'll be back on Monday to talk about task. Maybe some more Black Rabbit.

Lowdown is coming. Slow down is coming. There's a lot of really good TV on right now. I think all that's coming next week. It is. There's a crazy, like Thursday is essentially D-Day for us. Not literally. We're not, we don't know.

We don't know. We don't know. Time stamp it. We don't know. But good luck, everyone.