The Watch - ‘Alien: Earth’ Failed Itself. Plus, Ethan Hawke and Sterlin Harjo on ‘The Lowdown,’ and ‘Slow Horses’ Is Back!

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about why the season finale of ‘Alien: Earth’ missed the mark and their interest level in potential future seasons (2:47). Then they break down the premiere of ‘Slow Horses�� Season 5 (38:57), before Chris is joined by ‘The Lowdown’ star Ethan Hawke and creator Sterlin Harjo for a live event at Brain Dead Studios to discuss the series premiere, why the project means so much to them, the inception of the Tulsa-based crime drama, and much more (49:24). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Ethan Hawke and Sterlin Harjo Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur.

Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, now he rules. It's Andy Greenwald. You got a little pep in your step today. I can tell. You know what?

I've just been potting so much. I'm getting a little punchy. I did Zach Lowe yesterday. I've got you. We've got the big picture one battle after another pod. Then we're just rolling back around. I've got you. Is that?

Yeah. Is that what this has become? This is your hour. my time. We do send this out, right? This is just... By the way, we have some really interesting stuff happening on the show today. It's a gangster-sized mega bonus episode of the watch because you and I, the usual, like,

absolutely razor-sharp bands. The gruesome-dusum. But then afterwards, so earlier this week, I did an event with Sterling Harjo and Ethan Hawke at Brain Dead here in Los Angeles where they screen the first episode of the lowdown, and then I chatted with those guys on stage. Kaya was there. Kaya was there. The gang was there.

Kaya was working. She definitely let me know it was work. You're trying to socialize with her? I was just like, what's good? You know, come to the east side sometime. We hung in the green room for a little bit. You know, me, you, Ethan. That's right.

Jay chilling. That's nice. So we're going to put that at the end of this episode. You can listen to that. Andy and I will get deeper into the lowdown. The first two episodes went up on Tuesday. It's one of our favorite shows of the year. I love the show.

Great show. We'll talk about that next week. So also, a little bit of like a little bit of house cleaning. Sure. As you may have seen on our social feeds, Andy and I are going to be appearing at Vidyats on Sunday night hosting a panel talk following a screening of the fourth episode of task. That panel will include Tom Pelfrey, Mark Ruffalo, Brad Inglesby and the director, Sally Richardson-W Woodfield. We'll be chatting there. That's a KCRW, Vidyat's event, and...

We were on the low line of the Coachella poster in that. I don't know that we made the poster. No, but that's fine. Yeah. You know, there's always surprised, like, Weezer Coachella last year. I believe the top of the poster said, at the same theater that Sean Fantasy often sees films, we present. I think that's right.

No, in any case, what we're going to do is run that on Monday, but we are also going to chat to two of us in studio about task, because how could we not? We have a lot to get through today because we have the Alien Earth finale, Slow Horses is back. Yeah. Yeah. And then whatever else is on your mind.

No, no, please. Apparently we have a tight, tight wind. I like to keep it moving. Like Jalen Hurts. we can manage a tight window throw. Well, like Jalen Hertz, you're getting more aggressive with me in the second half of our lives. That's true.

Can I, okay, do you want to just get it? Should we just get into it? Is there any other... You know, I'm stalling a little bit? Yeah. Why I've gotten up to the line of scrimmage and now I'm checking to see if I need to call it audible, is I don't want to jump in and be in a bad mood about Alien Earth.

Yeah. Because, Andy, I have to tell you after the finale, here's my take. Alien Earth didn't, it didn't fail me. And it didn't fail the alien franchise. I think it failed itself. Whoa. Yeah, you know.

You're being the high school coach. Wow. Okay, you wanted it to do better and get into a better college. For itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You see little Tino-Morphs come and go, you know, but this one was special and you wanted more for it.

Yeah. So, all right, let's get into this. This is the real monsters. Guess who they were. And it's directed by Dana Gonzalez, written by Noah Hawley, and Migsie Peson, sorry. And I think I've been pretty vocal, especially in the early parts of this season, of finding a lot to like about this series. And then the second half of the season, especially, and then this finale, really, really, I felt pretty let down about it. I'm not like I'm taking my toys and going home.

first seasons of franchise shows. There's a lot of places to go. But I think when I got to the end of this episode and needle drop, the hybrid kids have locked up all the mean adults. Utani is on the way with an Air Force that she apparently did not feel the need to send the first time she invaded this island.

And Wendy now controls two xenomorphs with her voice. and all of networked digital equipment with her brain. Do you think she could explain a VPN to me? She is the VPN. Damn it. Yeah, you're right. She's going to be sitting in your room when you get there, and she's like, Andy, the Eagles are losing seven.

She's a very precocious network. I was like, well, where did we arrive? Like, what distance have we covered over the last eight and a half hours or whatever? You don't want an ending of a season of television to be described as, shocking for the reasons that I found this ending to be shocking. Okay. Right. Like I...

Go off, King. No, no. I'm not... You dropped something, King. By the way, we were talking earlier off mic about how you would fare on a political ticket. And I just want to reiterate that once again, you are just so good at this. I will be Amy Poller's Tim Walts.

So what we... Actually, I guess that doesn't really work today. That's still lost. No, I just mean that like, even now, you were like... Like, this show failed itself. I wasn't super into all of it, but I was super into some of it. You go. And I'm like, I am so.

And it kind of like record. It kind of leans in, rubs her hands together, like the yellow suit meme. I'm going to be modest and controlled here as well. I think that what I mean is I don't think I was the only audience member who checked to see how much time was left. Like, that's really what we're doing, which is just to move all of the pieces to the middle of the game board and then call game. And then, you know, I think most savvy viewers these days also know with a show of this caliber and of these production values, this expense. This talent. When are we going to see season?

This show has not yet been renewed. It would seem likely that it will be. But when would we see a season two considering the challenges involved in the production of it? 27 charitably. I don't know if that is a safe bet to end this way

when you have that much of a gap to make up for. I just think that might be poor planning because it was an enormous letdown. I think that the thing that let me down

was the road's not traveled. Okay. I do not think you can, I am not trying to be like, I have bloodlust or anything like that, but I don't think you can

really set a show in this world. Forget the previous alien movies. If this was your first experience with alien, and you saw what the alien did to the Maginot in the beginning and then in the middle of the season, how can you go through the end of this season, the last episode especially,

and the only people who really get it are red shirts, and then the guy who we thought had an alien burst out of his chest, thus destroying his organs, is resurrected as a zombie by the eyeball, which I guess that's a thing that it can do. It doesn't need any other organs. Well, it doesn't need this sternum. You know what I mean?

Okay. We're doing, sports science is doing incredible things these days. And then you have this situation where it's like, you have a big fight between Moro and Kirsch, but they're both fine. You have Dame Sylvia, like, like destroyed by grief and her decision-making to prioritize, like,

furthering of the science that she's been pursuing against her husband and her love and her life and everything and that like that. But she never actually articulates that. She just stares out a window for two episodes, basically. And I got to the end of this episode and I was just like, this is just such a punt. This is not really like saying anything other than what is a human? And I think that the reason why I drove me crazy is because I think no one knows it. Because he hints that hermit is going to be the person invaded by this species. You know what I mean? Wendy's going to have to make

these decisions. What if a human being had then become a xenomorph? Like that is, or a xenomorph hybrid of its own. Like what does that do to their strange, constructed dramatic relationship of brother, sister, but not really? Right. That's really interesting.

Kirsch and Morrow kind of just blindly fighting for their corporate entities, I guess, is the least interesting outcome of those two fascinating characters who both hinted at different motivations and different allegiances and different kind of internal lives over the course of the season and just to have it be like, I work for this guy, fight, fight, fight. Well, the cursing is particularly perplexing because if you just singled out his scenes,

it would be incomprehensible to me what his motivations are. Do you share that? I have no idea. He appears to be. a loyal synthetic person, scientists. He then seems to be quite clearly undermining his boss and allowing these creatures to run wild. And then when the moment comes that the rival arrives,

he is blindly loyal again, as far as I can tell. That's a tough beat. I do get the sense and not to read into performances. These are all professional actors, but I mentioned this last week when we were talking about the show, that Alex Lothar, one of my favorite current working young actors, seems perplexed in scenes in a way that isn't even dramatic.

And it happened again this week. And I think what I'm picking up on, or at least what I'm supposing, is that it has to do with his character a good-hearted, big-hearted, one-lunged medic, his shifting attitudes towards megavolence where he seems completely fine with his sister unleashing hell through her alien protege on red shirts, but not his red shirts, but then later, kind of on his red shirts too.

The shocking episode, Ender last week, of what did you do, is immediately wiped off the board. Well, your girl Nibbs is fine. She's totally fine. She's dead. I was like, I don't think so. And then not only is she fine, but blemish-free.

So what was the issue, and how hard is it for even a emotional eight or nine-year-old to understand that Herma was trying to stop people from getting killed? I don't like Wendy's ability to solve complex quadratic equations and face time from her own brain, notwithstanding, I think she would also be able to understand that her brother is just borderline trying to do the right thing. I think kids actually understand that often more than they understand nuance.

Yeah. That was bizarre to me. I think it's also like there are directions that the show goes like Wendy's seemingly unlimited powers, right? which develop over the course of the finale episode to the point where she's gesturing in the air and controlling the entire computer network that governs this prodigy facility. She is now able to basically hack any synthetic person

who is on the Wi-Fi and yet it took seven episodes for her to understand that one of the most prominent people on the island, an island of about charitably 27 people total, is himself a synthetic person on the... the Wi-Fi. Well, that's Admondson's character, right, Adam? Did she just notice that? I think she... Was it not relevant? Makes it... Was she, was she's present for Boy Cavalier's speech about I made a fake dad, right? She's present for that. So you could, you could do the TikTok of like,

not the TikTok video, the like, in the journalistic sense of one thing leading to another. Not in the, our brave patriots, Larry Ellison is going to help save the social network. God bless commerce and free capitalism. Um, that she, heard that. As a vice presidential candidate, I've yet to weigh in on TikTok, but I think that there are good arguments on both sides of the acquisition. God, I love this. I love this for you. What if I just ran for Veep? But whoever. But whoever. Yeah. Like, I was like, free agent VEP. Do you understand that you were born for this? Like, 25 years ago, you had a 100% approval rating in all bar conversations with any group of people. That is who you were. Yeah. And then at the time,

I imagine at some point, Chuck Closterman probably said something out loud, like, if only there was a career path for a guy who has opinions about everything and everyone loves, then Bill Simmons invented podcasting. Larry Ellison invented the internet. There you go. And now here we are. So the next logical step is everybody's veep. CR.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to like the top guy. No. The second guy's great. Newsom, Ryan, Vance, Ryan. It all sounds American to me. me. And I think I could actually loosen both those guys up.

Oh my God, totally. Because I could pod with them. You could. Why don't we all pod together? First of all. Three man weave, Vance Newsom Ryan. And Marshawn Lynch. And its favorite NBA teams to not win a title. Everyone is podcasting now. Like, I don't mean like everyone has a podcast. I mean, our government is now run by podcasters. Yeah. So this does make sense. And we would clearly so much rather talk about your political trajectory.

than the finale of FX's 400 million dollar alien television show. Anyway. We'll return to this. By the way, speaking of positivity, the previously on Alien. It's the coolest invention of this show. It's awesome.

It's awesome. The music's great in that sequence. Yeah. What was I talking about? We were talking about Wendy's Powers. And whether she knew. So, right, you could say that that was the progression of her realization.

But it does seem like someone who is in a Lamborghini internet body might be aware of what's a machine and what's not. Mm-hmm. And she wouldn't need plot armor to accomplish that. Yes. And I think that that in a vacuum, these small, huh, are we sure about that moments, are insignificant. The greatest shows of all time have many of them.

And I'll allow that Boy Cavalier and Dame might not understand the true extent of Wendy's powers, because clearly we do not understand. understand the true extent of the powers of AI now, right? Like, so there is... What do you propose to do about it, candidate? Hmm. It's an interesting topic. And I think that what we have to do is get to the bottom of it, but also remember how we got here. You know what's going to be amazing is when your campaign, all your campaigns,

crashes and burns when the moderator, wait, when the moderator is just like, one final question for candidate Ryan, how do you feel about the avatar franchise? I thought you were going to be like, how do you feel about cigarette smoking? Well, one of the two, and in the break room, you just see like, you know, like some, like Donna Brazil, like, no, no, don't say it.

Anyway, these small things in a vacuum are all forgivable and almost not worth devoting a podcast to. But when the, especially the finale of a show, is stitched together with an enormous number of,

huh, are we sure moments? You begin to get the feeling, as I think I walked away from the series with, that the story of the show, the narrative arc of the season was a means to an end, both to get to an end place where these people were in prison

and she had some aliens. And the lost boys were now, you know, awakening man-robot children. But also that the point, that Noah wanted to make were paramount. That was what mattered most. Yeah, I think that his interests in this story, if you told me that he actually had a take

or a sci-fi story that you wanted to tell, that was about something like the hybrids that is heavily referencing and based on Peter Pan, and that the xenomorphs are incidental to the entire thing. Yeah, they were. I would believe you, because it kind of seems like that's the case. And I don't mean that as an insult because I think that there's, like, clearly, like,

Noel Hawley understands way more about making television and way more about what works on TV than I will ever, like, come close to grasp it. And is bringing a significant decade plus body of work of what he wants to do and how he wants to use the medium to accomplish it artistically and thematically to the show. And has done on one occasion, you know, I was pretty skeptical just going into Fargo about like, what the hell are you going to do with a Cohen Brothers movie that is, 100% approval rating, but it's also like, that's the story. It's a closed circuit.

And instead finds threads to pull on and has made a really, really cool show out of something, out of nothing. And then it makes sense that you would apply that same brain to something like this, IP work. It's not that I think he's hostile towards alien. I just don't think he knows what to do with it.

Like, I don't, the aliens in alien, I mean. Like, I think he's just kind of like, well, I don't want to repeat. what Ridley Scott and James Cameron and David Fincher and Fetty Alvarez and, you know, Ridley Scott again, all these people have done. But I have to kind of tip my cap

to like a chest bursting scene or an alien comes down from the ceiling scene. How can I spin it? And its way of spinning it is to make it a pet, an attack dog, really. And that's interesting. But it actually, like, what your viewer knows about aliens

is that there is no, the alien takes a second to think about whether it's going to kill you before like and then the guards arrive at the last second like that's never happened in an alien movie yeah the alien is like watching you and then it punctures you and then it drags you away and that's what makes it so fucking scary there's no there's no debate about what's going to happen the the the moment i kind of left my like there's a there's a way when you are so enveloped in a and you're just completely living in it. And even if things are inconsistent, you're just rolling with it because you're so completely

immersed in it. And then there's like the first kick that kind of pushes you out a little bit. You're starting to watch and nitpick a little bit more. For me, it's in this episode when under a island-wide lockdown and internet outage, when it is quite clear that the high security lab has somehow failed yet again. And savage xenomorph, plural now, are free-hunting, free-range hunting on the island. Island. Dame Sylvia goes to the graves of the kids out somewhere on the side of a mountain just to have a little by herself meeting. The alien finds her there, watches her, waits for her to turn around, looks at her, and then gets knocked away by guards who are not themselves immediately killed to say, like, ma'am, it's not safe out here. Right.

Boy Cavalier is established as a preening, egotistical, megalomaniac. This episode really underlines that he has. as ADHD. He's playing with a pill bottle. This is a, it's a tough beat to introduce a plot point that apparently important 20 minutes into the finale. And the extremity of your ADHD requires, yeah, yeah, a curse says that. When he goes to visit the now hostile,

you know, galaxy-sized powered lost boys, he walks into their cell with one security guard. Neither of these scenes are particularly strong examples of human behavior, I would say. It's behavior that is dependent on what you want the characters to do, the shot you want to take, where you want them to end up. Like the kids sitting in the cage and him walking into the lion's den is a cool shot. And S.C. Davis, realizing her life is over except it's not in front of a xenomorph, is also beautiful and haunting.

And she is, to some degree, the only human avatar left on the show. but all of this for me makes it fails because the central argument of the show is who are the real monsters. Well, I guess the takeaway is humans, but where are the humans? Right. I don't see them in the show. I see a white-blooded, completely inscrutable robot fighting a one-arm cyborg rage machine. Right. I see, and I see a bunch of little kids in superpowered bodies.

And xenomorphs and plant aliens and sheep eyes and Hermit being like, I guess I'm a human, but what's going on here? It's tough. I mean, for a finale to be this based, this dependent on, not just a, I'm sorry, not a finale, a season to be dependent on locking mechanisms to be when it's really just a suggestion. It's just a whisper of a thought. A high security lab, whether it's on the Maginot or it's on Boy Cavalier's Island, is really just another stop on the walking tour for anyone to go in and out of constantly.

I think for me it summed up most when, you. You have Hermit and Morrow sharing one of these cells. And when Morrow wakes up, and there's sort of a bizarre line of dialogue, I'll try and find. I definitely took it down. But the first thing he does when he wakes up is he goes to the door and jiggles the handle. Classic high security future. Honestly, not a bad idea in that place. That's what I'm saying.

When he gets out easily, he just grabs a set of keys from the guard and immediately unlocks his cyborg guard. because the guy was carrying the keys to his cyborg on. Again, to make a story unfold in the way you wanted to unfold, happenstance and convenience is going to be a part of it. It's just the long chain of happenstance and convenience to get us to a place to set us up for a future season that rankles. I truly do try to stick to what we were given on screen and not read too much into postseason interviews.

Noah Holly has talked to a couple places. I think Hollywood Reporter is where I read this, where he talked about one or two things. One is that it typically works in 10 episode seasons. And this is the first time that he had worked in an eight episode one. Maybe he said this was eight. He also pointed out that he had to do essentially an alien movie to start the season. Yes.

Gets back to Neverland for two episodes. Then goes back out into space to do the Maginot origin, gets back and then has to, you know, basically has a three-episode arc to get to the end of the season. And I don't know whether that's like the strikes, the cost of making this, whether or not they had Timothy Ollifant for as much time as they needed him if they wanted to do certain things.

Seemed avail. Yeah, I mean, I have no idea, but I wonder if there's a better 10-episode season of this. And I also think that one of the reasons why you and I are so on edge about watching some of this stuff, and we keep saying things like the lock and her powers, which have,

yet to be discussed until the end of being that massive. I mean, I know she's able to communicate with Hermit in the beginning of the season. But that would suggest that she already can do that. And why would you then let her roam free without an off switch? Yes. Right? We got an email a couple weeks ago from someone named Alan, which was very good because I think he picks at something that probably for a solid chunk of our listeners is the case,

which is basically we've got an Andor pill. and that ages ago Tony Gilroy came onto the watch to talk to you all about the Narcina Five arc and or season one. Season one, yeah. Tony talked about the writer's room and Luke Hall spending a lot of time figuring out how a space prison would work.

Like if the prison had no bars, what would keep the prisoners trapped? Oh, the floor is electrified. That would mean the prisoners would be barefoot. Shout out boy cavalier. How'd you prevent the guards from being shocked? They'd have to wear these heavy boot things. and so on and so on and so on.

But all that detail about the architecture and functions of the prison dictated the movement of the story. Would alien Earth have benefited from that kind of planning? I think it's a great, great question. It's a great point. A couple things in what you were saying.

Thanks for the email, Alan. I think, and thank you for the dramatic reading of it. I think, I love when you read emails on the show. It gives me time to... Do you actually? Well, they're great emails. It gives me time to check mine. No.

Another fundraiser from Vice President Ryan? Who's running for Attorney General in New Mexico again? Wait, it's Chris. A couple things about this. I think it's a very fair question to ask if, due to budget reasons or production reasons, the episode order was trimmed. There's a moment in this episode when I believe it's Adam basically narrates what's going on on the island that does feel like a lot of yada, yada, yada.

Yeah, Uthani is on her way with their ships. And a lot of, like, dreamy footage that definitely, of scenes, not all of which were shot to be part of the montage of someone narrating. Right. That's just very clear. Artfully done, but like you can get that, you can get that sense. So there might have been more story left on it. I, on the bone.

I think that it's important when we talk about shows like this to always contextualize it by saying, it's not as if all television shows in 2025 start from the same place in terms of budget, in terms of priorities, in terms of producers, executives, networks, hopes, dreams, creators, etc. What Andor did is a miracle

for any number of reasons. The number one reason being it is exceptional television, like some of the best maybe ever made when we look back on this. It is also not repeatable, Not just repeatable, not unrepeatable because, you know, margins have changed, and Disney isn't investing in Star Wars that doesn't involve puppets as much anymore. It's not repeatable because it is a unique chemistry, not just of Tony Gilroy and material,

but Tony Gilroy and Kathy Kennedy in charge of Disney at a moment of transition at Disney. I'd be like, we need hours of TV for Disney Plus. And him saying, I can deliver it. And him saying, okay, great, I'm going to hole up in my brownstone with my brother and Bo Willemann and Tom. Bissell and we are going to spare no expense and we are going to operate on the highest possible level at all times. Everybody sets out to do that, but it's not always possible. Noah, by contrast, works differently, thinks differently, has different aims and goals, but also the aims and goals of Fox, of FX, of John Landgraf, of the nature of having a room

and then shooting in Thailand, like all of this goes into it. So I don't want to hold them up next to each other and say, you know, one is better than the other. But I think that But the larger takeaway from the email that I definitely agree with is the standard has been raised. And I think that what we're bumping on is the difference between a show that is dedicated to giving us a complete thought, both narratively, but also thematically, politically, visually, artistically, which is Andor. And a show that is a maybe an imperfect vessel for what motivates the creator. Yeah, right. And I am never going to come on this podcast and say, oh, I wish creators had less opportunity to express their innermost hopes, dreams, and passions.

But this feels a little bit at the end of these episodes like an ill-fitting garment for some of them. I wonder whether or not also there was something about this story that he felt like he needed to tell to get to the next one. Which is a tough beat for contemporary television. But this is also a creator who has worked in a somewhat anthologized. fashion in the past. Other than Legion, he has. And I would not be shocked if... Now, he has said in these interviews, he was like,

but it is a very interesting situation because even though Wendy is like, we rule now, all these ships are coming, you know? And so... What does she rule over? Those people in the prison? Humanity. I think that's kind of like, we don't work for you. You know, we're not showroom models. We are, you know, you're the showroom models.

Is that what the new skinny iPhone is going to say? That's why I'm not... I'm not updating to that new OS with the bubbles. Like, that's... No, thank you. Are you... Do you think that there's any promise for future seasons in terms of, like, creatively?

Like, your interest level? Yeah. I mean, I think the constant... I don't know, that's a good question. No, but I think the constant of... The constant of our conversations over the last eight weeks have been, I think, incredibly impressed by some structural decision-making and some just idea-generating

that is at the root here. And then some frustration with the sort of the straightjacket of the first-season problem. And then maybe beyond that, what we're starting to tease at today is like maybe there's a cool show about AI and humanity and, hybrid machine robot baby people, but is that an alien show? Do we want aliens in it? I mean, the alien ultimately are the least interesting thing, you know, I think about this show, don't you think? In how they are deployed? Oh, I mean, I think that the alien is the show. I mean, if you just were like, it's about AI and synthetic people and immortality in Peter Pan, I would just be like, I'm not that interested in that. I'm not that interested in it in a vacuum. But if you tell me

every other detail about this is the same in the sense that there is... The coolest shots in this episode are still like the alien dissolve against the sun on a mountain top somewhere on this island screaming into the night, into the void.

You know, like, that's cool to me. Like, I don't know. That's your platform. Single issue candidate. I'm interested in the stuff that I think I'm interested in a lot of the things that Noah's interested in. I think xenomorphs are the best part of this show. There are Americans too.

I think the world run by five cutthroat corporations with a blurring line between what is human and what is machine and a guy basically being like, I've invented immortality, but I'm really just mostly compelled by the works of J.M. Barry, and so I'm making sure that this follows like the deep Peter Pan cuts. The moment when they're in prison,

when Wendy's like, actually Wendy was the most popular. and then, but Peter got mad later when she grew up until he came and kidnapped her daughter. I'm like, it's like explaining the plot of Jurassic World Three to me. Yes. Let's stay focused here. We get the bit. Although I was impressed that in the finale, Wendy's, you know, self-upgrade finally allowed her to stop saying the boy genius.

Yes. She said boy K. I was like, let's go with that. But all I'm saying is I actually found the most interesting template for a longer running Noah Hawley series to be the things that I think he was more interested in. And by the end, when Boy Cavalier is like, you know, all my toys are here and these aliens are just toys to him. And there's still the sense that everybody just wants it.

But why do they want them? They seem like a lot of hassle. And I don't think that safety glass has iterated enough to really allow us to fully explore having these things. They stopped developing safety class at like the movie Ice Age in its release. I think that's absolutely true. They don't, on a fundamental level, and maybe this is a few weeks ago you were talking about

how in some interviews it seemed like Noah was saying, yeah, these people are stupid. You know, I'm paraphrasing. But at a certain point, the characters on the show are not serious people about what they're messing with and what they're doing. And it's hard for me to take it serious. The boy's character is that it's kind of like making a,

making a piece of art about someone who's a great writer and not showing their writing, right? Or something about a musician who writes the greatest song about all the time. This guy is a genius multi-trillionaire and seems like kind of an idiot. Now, you could say, oh, I can think of some examples in our current setup where that's the case as well.

Yeah. But there's really no evidence to suggest that this guy would even be trusted by anybody, you know, to do any of this stuff. The last thing I'll just leave us with is the fact that, still, these aliens have not gotten off that island. So you could still, like, theoretically throw a blanket on top of it and be like,

aliens have never been to Earth or nobody else knows about this and nobody else is like, hmm, xenomorphs. I do think that he's going to have to reckon with some kind of canon if he makes another season. And he's indicated that, like, he'll have to start considering that more heavily. But, you know, I think my first red light or my first alarm was when it was kind of like, Oh, yeah, Prometheus and Covenant don't, that doesn't matter in this world. Or like, that's alternative fiction. I admire the creative chutzpah.

But it's like, well, then, what are we watching then? Is that the first time you used Yiddish on this podcast? Shana Tova, my brother. That was a dog whistle for this dog. The high hollies, man. As our resident alienologist, can you comment? I like it. Are you running under Andrew Yang's no labels party?

I don't want LV426 to get mad at me. But go ahead. It's not about specifics. It's more about the traditional vibe of these stories, is that they are more or less haunted house stories in space where everybody dies. Sure. Except, you know, there's always one survivor or a Ripley or whatever.

This did invert that. Imagineau did the alien movie. Yeah. One survivor. But it is. Everyone of note. other than poor Isaac, rest and power king, everybody else survived.

Did that throw you? Yes, that threw me a lot. It threw me a lot. Not only because I just want to see aliens get after it, it threw me a lot because I like watching things where the consequences and stakes that are obvious are actually followed through. And that's why I was like, put the eyeball on hermit.

I would love to see Alex Lothor be Frankenstein's monster. Like, let's see what happens when this happens. I will say that, you know, the development process is so glacial often in television that there are things that are, I think, broadly accepted not just by the viewing public or by podcasters, but I think within development meetings and sales pitches and things that the industry has moved on from or has finally understood and taken and learned from. One of those is you can't start a pilot with the most exciting thing and then say one month earlier. Yes.

Black Rabbit was written and developed before this seemed to really sink into the consciousness. So Black Rabbit did it. The other one that I think one of the lessons from this past year, so Alien could not have caught up to it in its development process, is I no longer think that you are playing with house money when you are developing and spending on a massive IP, known IP franchise show. and you cannot spend as burn a season clearing your throat. Right. This season did not just clear its throat. The Maginot stuff, the world building. I'm not trying to dismiss it.

It went for it in ways that I think were very smart and met the moment. But broadly speaking, there were House of Dragon vibes to the sense that, like, don't worry, we'll get to the good stuff. I don't know. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that there's something to that. In The Last of Us, season two, ratings kind of proved that, like, you cannot bank on it. You cannot count on that same level of excitement, engagement coming back with you, ratings-wise. Again, that's not quality, that's not a quality comment.

The ratings were down. So I think that big stuff that's being developed now, we'll have to go in with that mindset. Either we make it every year or we tell the biggest possible story every year. Yeah, it's three years from now. We do Alien Earth part season two, and it's about something completely different. And maybe Kirsh is in it or whatever. but like we've kind of changed the game board. The same way he does this far ago.

I would also say, and again, the shows that are on television at the same time are not in competition with each other. It's not really fair to do it. But they are, because of the nature of a podcast, they are in conversation with each other. And one of the things that I was excited

to talk about on task episode three when we talked on Monday was how Brad Inglesby is incredibly adept at giving characters their ISO hero ball introductory, expository speech in ways that even if it's not natural

flows and it draws your attention and draws you deeper into the story in the world I thought this episode was a did not succeed to that level when you have moments like Morrow and Kersh

are fighting to the death and Morrow suddenly starts talking about John Henry. Yeah. The pop culture thing is maddening to me. I mean I think again that is an interesting analogy.

It is relevant. It's a good story to tell. I don't know if that was the moment for it. And similarly, like Boy Cavalier, like walking into a room full of murderous hybrid baby robots and being like, let me tell you about my father. Read the room. You know, I know you own the room and we built the room and everything. Or you say that from outside of the gate. You know, even though when she opens the gate, that's probably a bad sign that like you're going to get trapped in there. Or maybe he's so smart because he understands that there really are no walls between any of us.

That's right. And any time. He clearly does. does not believe in security protocols. It's my campaign slogan. There are no walls. That's beautiful. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for.

That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. Prime, visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas, terms apply. The playoffs are here, and you

can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and

predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered Futures Commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in.

Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce

and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels, make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide

and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Let's talk a little bit about the first episode of Slow Horses, season five. We still have this lowdown thing to get to so we can keep this brief enough because this is a setup episode for the most part.

I found it to be the most viscerally kind of electrifying and almost confrontational of those slow horses here's the bomb here's the moment that brings puts the case in motion I love this season you've watched ahead I have watched ahead

and I will not be spoiling anything or talking about anything and I love this season because it puts the thriller back in spy thriller I think that obviously they're following along with McHarran's books this one is based on London rules as people may have read, this one is a Roddy-centric season. As his PR reps have clearly, like there's a big profile in the Times,

this guy's front and center. And I think what I loved about this was where the fourth season felt a little bit like there's the Jack Loudoun's season happening over here, and then there is the these two are running around over here. Shirley and Marcus maybe are doing stuff. It feels like the band is coming back together. and exploring the studio space, finding out what they sound like live.

And it just feels like the propulsion is back in this show. And I don't really need this series to be myth-making and to be like, what's the bigger story about River? What is his... It's like, River's trapped. All these people are trapped. They also all can't admit that they prefer living in Jackson's world rather than the bullshit world of the park

or wherever or outside. But tell me what you thought of the first episode. I love the show. I love that it's in our lives every year. It's a gift. I was pleased to learn that it was based on the McHarran novel London Rules,

not the text I was sending you between September and March where I said based... London Rules. Yeah. I... You know, look, the beauty and the brilliance

and the stability of the show is that it has these books. The risk you run is that if the... there's a book that is, I mean, I haven't read them. So I don't know, I don't know if Spook Street was an off book, you know, or maybe not as strong as the others, but you are basically, you've made the decision to follow the tracks that were laid by the writer. And I loved watching season four. I'm never going to take it for granted that we have it. But the things about the show that I am not

particularly, that not particularly interested in include River being an action hero in a separate television show. Yes. River's origin story, River's Oedipal relationship with his mean super villain dad. Right. I don't really care. Like that's kind of tangential stuff that makes it like a slow horses,

you know, expanded universe. And like, I don't watch it that way. And it's fun and cool for people who do or it might hit different when you're reading a book and, you know, characters maybe bubble up and then disappear again and come back. This does feel like, I think what I picked up on that you were responding to is, that this season immediately starts off with a series of horrifying gangs. But you're immediately back in the tensions that made the show worthwhile to begin with.

Of this misfit, this collection of misfit toys slash found family, hate each other and are trapped with each other, and yet somehow keep showing up for each other. I think it also makes a difference that Saul Metstein, who directed season three, which was excellent, is back to direct this season. Yes. And maybe there's also a little extra, a little, you know, gas in his own.

engine because this is Will Smith who has won Emmys and has been the showrunner and main adapter of the series since season one. This is his swan song. He's stepping back from the day-to-day show running after this season. They're also back on home field. So being back in London, starting the season with and will spoil the first episode going forward, the first sequence is essentially a mass shooting at a campaign stump promotional. Not even. It's just like that guy has a table in a what appears to be like a council flat. Like he's And he's trying to register people and get them to vote for the Sadiq Khan stand-in that Nick Muhammad is playing.

Who is the current mayor in the world of Slow Horses? He's the incumbent. And he is running against a populist demagogue, vaguely Nigel Farageish character. Slow Horses has done a really nice job of like talking about the nuances between the conservative side of the British sort of political spectrum and their relationship to the more like national front racist I mean I heard that it's Sharia law there now

I'm very interested I'll report back soon and so yeah I think that it starts out with this mass shooting that takes place there there's immediately like questions about what we know as viewers versus what cops and agents are trying to catch up with and by the way kudos to the production and D'Sall Metstein and Will Smith like

the show is very propulsive and very funny all the time. That opening was horrifying. Yeah. It was, I thought it was brilliantly, I don't want to say shot or executed, but it was brilliantly, they pulled it off. But I liked it because I think most Slow Wars' seasons start with a bomb goes off way down over there or there's a murder, then it kind of spirals out from there. But I feel like the show needed something like that to kind of say like, hey, we know it's season five.

pay attention. Yeah, and I just thought that the framing of it, there was, the most horrifying aspect of it was the silence that they lingered in, that usually it's like a knee-jerk thing that anytime there is any kind of act of violence on television or movies, if you leave the scene, you hear the sirens, you hear the approach, you hear a scream, there's a sense that it's almost like letting the audience know, don't worry, society is here to pick up the pieces of the guardrails exist, and I really appreciated that it was just this horrifying funerings. silence. Yeah, and then it kind of

snowballs from there. You know, there's an attempt on Roddy's life. Surely, maybe Shirley is obsessed with the idea that it was. It's a white van, by the way, which is what Ethan Hawk drives in the lowdown. That's true. And, you know, there's a lot of tension arriving from the internal kind of

allegiances, but also dreams and nightmares of the members of Slyle House, specifically Louisa leaves, Slyhouse. And River is obviously like I'm kind of the last, I'm holding the bag here. Like, I'm, I'm close to becoming one of those people that just spends the rest of his career here.

And what's that going to mean for me when I think I have, like, a higher purpose. And I think I'm, like, the number one draft kick of all spies. Jackson is still Jackson, farting, drinking. I mean, his, can you imagine his Grub Street diet? Oh, my God. It's just like, garlic noodles. He starts with a full English. Yeah.

Some of it ends up on his tie. He then, oh, man, I meant to. The Tesco Caterpillar, who has a name, someone's going to email me about this, including my friends in England. What's the Tesco Caterpillar? So he takes, they go to Tesco to get the supplies for the going away party. Oh, yeah. And one of the things that they get is a cake of this character. Oh, yeah.

And there's gummies, and I've got them from my. Slinky or fuzzy? Thank you. Colin. No, it's Colin. Colin the Caterpillar. Thank you. It's like a Carvel thing?

London rules. Yes, we would think of it. I used the same analogy. Then I had to explain Fudgy the whale, and everybody was like, it's time for you to fly home now. Did you have Carvel out in the West Coast growing up? What is that?

It's an ice cream chain, but they make ice cream cakes usually in like these proprietary cartoon characters. No, we had like Baskin'Robbins. Wait, I'm going to get, Kaya, you were right. Colin is the Markson Spencer version of it. The classier version of the classic Slinky.

And what does Tesco saw? Slinky. Okay. So Jackson then takes the slinky cake and a bottle of whiskey and almost dies smoking a cigarette. He doesn't clearly know about Zins yet. No. That might be season six. And then after polishing off the cake, I believe, switches to garlic noodles and shrimp chips before exiting the office.

It is a legendary run by my guy. It's firing on all cylinders in the, like if anybody who listens to the show wants to write for television, an ongoing television, I would just watch this episode. as a primer on the possibilities of ongoing series and what you can do. Because it's so deeply rooted in character in the way that the best sitcoms are where everyone knows the role they play and in the same way that like a classical music composer

might know which section of the orchestra to use and how to have them interact. The scene of the going away party, everyone is playing their role and the ball movement is elite. And then the subtle gradations that you get only in the fifth season of a show where Shirley is like correct that something has happened to Roddy and everyone's reaction to it is both A, in keeping with who they are, B, has ulterior motives,

as Jackson says that he does. Yes. But C, you also see where River is in his journey towards being more like his grandfather, more like his father, or more like Jackson. Right. And that he's pretty dismissive of it too. Yeah. It's just a masterclass on how to manage a large ensemble.

they also do a really good job of in this season I will say like finding new pairings and mixing it up and that's my favorite thing when you have a long running show like this is like shuffling the deck a little bit and being like what if these two hung out for a while and what if these two had to do something what do they have to say to each other exactly so louise's face when river plants one on her great great stuff just looking looking over the thames would you like to comment on that like just politically where you'd like this relationship to go will they or won't they who can say because you know it's good I'm just going to throw a little curveball to you before we go to our interview that we've been teasing for 40 plus minutes.

But like, but Zoron went back to the New York Times editorial board and they were trying to gotcha him. And he was like, nope. They were like, would you apologize to the NYPD? And he said, yes. And then they were like, oh, what subway seat would you like to sit in, sir? Do many takes? It's kind of amazing. If you just, this is my, that's my platform.

I just speak my truth. Let's get into that lowdown interview. So this was recorded on Monday. night and I was myself and Ethan Hawk and Sterling Harjo it was really cool a bunch of the cast of the lowdown was in the audience so it was really cool to see them interacting

with Ethan and Sterlin while they were on stage they told some great stories and it was really awesome I think I understood these guys like working together but these guys are like creative brothers and it's really cool to see

someone of a different generation like Ethan Hawk just be like now you are my guy like let's make stuff together and it's one thing Ethan Hawke is notorious where he doesn't like making stuff it doesn't it was a really cool chat thanks to everybody who came out and we will be back on Monday with another one of these where we have

a panel talk but this time with the cast and creators behind behind task Kaya will you be there? I will east side Kaya that's right that's wild wow maybe you see the culture we've got out here venturing over to Eagle Rock on a Sunday

Traffic will be fine. It's true on a Sunday. Yeah, Greenwald, great to see you. See you on Monday. My name is Chris Ryan. You are here for a special live taping of the watch. Minus Andy Greenwald. He apologizes.

But I do have some special guest to introduce. So without further ado, let me bring out the creator and star of the lowdown, Sterling Harjo and Ethan Hawk. I know they're loud. I like that. Guys, thank you so much for doing this with me. me. I'm so glad everybody just got to watch the first episode. I talked about it a little bit earlier today when I was recording an episode of the pod with Andy, and we were marveling at the fact that

a lot of the shows seemed to be almost pulled from our minds and, like, tapped into just so many of the things that we are interested in. I think you can really feel that this is something that you guys actually wanted to see on screen. So I wanted to know if we could just go through, take me through Genesis, take me through how this project came together. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because Ethan and I had met before Reservation Dogs, we started writing a project together. And we just kind of became friends and like good friends. And we'd share music together and we talk, we talk literature and blah, blah, blah.

And, you know, and then he was in Res Dogs. And I think Ethan thought he was going to be like, I'll be a cameo or something, you know. I thought it was going to be a cashier attendant or something. But, you know, as soon as Ethan Hawke said he's going to be in the show, I was like, well, let me go and write you the biggest role of one episode, you know. And so he became a Laura Dannan's dad. And came down, we filmed.

It was a great time. And that was kind of like, you know, we knew. I knew after that I wanted to work on something, like, whether it's a film or whatever, like we needed to do something because we just jelled. And then, you know, I was kind of like thinking about what to do after Resdogs. And there's this old script that I had had. It was actually a feature to begin with. And it was just like the first 20 pages.

And I had written the first 20 pages like 15 times. And a friend of mine inspired the character Lee. His name is Leareroy Chapman. He's a journalist that I worked with, this place called This Land Press. I literally rode around with him in a white van. And he told stories about sort of underground stories of Tulsa. and we made this video called Tulsa Public Secrets. He passed away, and I just was inspired to write this character.

And it wasn't meant to be like a bio, but like a inspired by sort of the spirit of him. Because he was also like, he was a journalist and he was sort of a thorn on the side to the establishment, you know. And he had a lot to do with like kind of helping the Tulsa Race Massacre like that come out, which had been covered up in Tulsa, not talked about. And so, you know, through the work at this end, we did a lot of work about, truth. And anyway, so I started thinking about what would I do next after reservation dogs? And I was like, I'll turn this story into a pilot. I rewrote it, wrote it as a pilot, sent it to him under the guys that I wanted notes. And you could tell the rest of that.

Well, it was, it was a really old school trick is what it was. He literally said he, because we had been writing together, you know, before Res Dogs started. So it kind of made sense. He's like, hey, thinking about submitting the scripts, is this ready to go out? What do you make out of this, you got any notes? Does it work? And I was like, sure, sure. So I open it up, and I read about this character and owns a bookstore. I'm like, this is me. Like, why is he not offering me this movie? I forgot to mention, I did sort of, like, when I was writing this character and rewriting some of what I already had, I did a sort of Ethan Hawk past because I'd written for him already and knew him at this point. And I literally text him, like, script's fun, but I should be in

this. And Stone just showed back, yeah, I can fix that. Tell me a little bit about the specific nature of your collaboration, because you mentioned at looking, possibly trolling him for notes. But like, as the show starts to come together and as you start to map it out, Ethan, were you working with the writers? Was it more of a kind of I'm on set kind of as a creative figurehead for the show? How did that work?

It's a little mysterious. I really trust Sterling. and this is Sterlin's dream. This is his city. This is inspired by people and a world that he knows extremely intimately. I felt immediately when I read this first 60 pages that I understood this guy. I never thought twice about it. I wanted to play that character really badly.

And so we have a good. great, it almost feels like being in a band together, where we would talk about ideas. We would talk about fatherhood. We would talk about what journalism means. We'd talk about Hunter S. Thompson. We'd geek out about different Jim Thompson, different things that we thought the show should feel like. And I really trusted him to lead.

Once the show gets green lit, you know, you've got a couple months to write a novel. And he doesn't need to be checking in. with me constantly or having too many cooks in the kitchen. But I also felt that he really trusted me so that I would read drafts and be like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if I did this? And you'd be like, yeah, that'd be cool. Or that wouldn't be cool or this. And we found a vocabulary that was Lee together.

Yeah. And it was extremely rewarding and interesting to go. I had an incredible supporting cast every day that I would wake up. They're all sitting on that row right there. Raise your hands. Stand up. Stand up real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, I had these amazing people that would give me energy.

And it was, I think, part of my, we're like a troop. We were a traveling troop trying to make this dream come true. And I never felt like Sterling didn't want to hear my ideas. Never. And I knew I was safe. He's very fun to work with. It's hard to say it. with you sitting right here.

It's okay. He was asking me to jump off to high dive, and he was asking everybody to jump off to high dive. And he wasn't sure how we were going to land, but he knew we were going to. By hook or by crook, we wouldn't finish until we did. And if I ever thought something was wrong

or some other cast member, Stone's the first person to say, what do you mean? Why do you think it's wrong? All right, let's do, what do you think? What would be funny? And we also really like each other.

So if he's not laughing, I'm not happy, you know? And so it was a fun set to go to because my job was, here's the other, there's a negative way of putting it. He gets bored so easily. And so if it's boring, I could look, I see him behind the monitor and go, okay, this scene sucks. And he'd be, yeah, do something else, you know. It's strange. It's like we're, you know, we were meant to work together. and, you know, we have such similar kind of like styles as far as blocking a scene goes.

And we're also not precious. Like once I write it, once it's down, it's like, let's do whatever we can do to make this better. Can I actually just ask you a follow up for that? Like you just casually mentioned similar styles of blocking a scene. Can you tell me what that means? Because there is an energy that is present in this episode and consecutive, the following episodes where I love how Lee is like always moving through his space. Can I go?

A lot of times. You can go whenever you want, by the way. I'd be driving to set and where it's the first thing that comes to mind, there's a million things that come to mind, but I know that it's a scene where I have to like pitch my idea for the story to my editor at the Heartland Press in the show. and I know what did I know that we're under time pressure and I know that the DP is going to want me to sit there and then the person to sit there and we can get this scene really fast as I'll sit me and I'm like but you know what you can't sit down can't sit down can't sit down can't sit down if I do sit down I'm getting right back up and that's going to make it such a pain he has to shoot and I've got a history of making movies I know what a problem that is as a director if an actor has an idea like that. I'm like, I have to pitch this to Sterling the right way.

And instead of doing it the right way, I come in and go, I can't sit down. And Stone's like, you can't sit down, you know? And then everybody else just has to roll with it. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting, like, you know, because I don't know, like we would come on a sudden and say, yeah, I just don't feel like I'm like, I know, you know. Like we got to like, and we wouldn't even kind of finish the sentences. And then it would be like, well, let's just see what happens.

We would do that a lot. Let's see what happens, you know? and we start walking around and start saying the scene. Usually we sit out and start trying to read the lines. And then it's like, oh, let's just get out. Well, what if you walked over here? And it was, it was kind of like jazz in a way. You know, we're improvising as we go.

But it always meant something. It's not like, I think that a lot of times people will look at a scene and it's like, okay, there's two people talking. Let's just have them talk. It's going to be brilliant. We're going to shoot it. It's going to be brilliant. And it's not brilliant.

Like, like, because you can also take those two characters sometimes. And I'm not saying I don't do that, but like, like, you could take those two characters sometimes and get to some sort of other truth about the scene with the way that they move within the scene. And you have a lot of experience now and you know what smells like real life and what doesn't. I've never had this happen to me in my life. I'm doing a scene. And I in the back of my mind know that I know the difference between when Sterling is really turned on and when he's like, thinking about what's not working. Sure.

You know? This gets real obvious. Yeah. But so we're active scene. The cameras are rolling. And all of a sudden, my director walks in to the shot. This is boring. What is it?

It's almost like he's trying to smell what's fake, you know? He's just standing and going, well, maybe go over there, maybe. What do you think? And then all of a sudden, I'm like, okay, I got it. I'm free. I'm free. I was feeling trapped too. And once that.

happens and it's so exciting one time we were in the middle of doing a scene and it wasn't in this episode but it's throwing the idea where we just started shooting the scene it sounds like what if he's wearing the same hat you are and it's bugging you it's getting your nerves and it takes like a normal scene it totally screws it up because right we started doing the scene halfway through the thing it's like are you wearing my hat he's like well it's not your hat it's a hat no hats are my thing and it's so weird and it doesn't make any sense but it reminds me of like shit that happens with my friends. And so all of a sudden, the scene smells real. Do you know?

And like, if I may, Michael steal the story that you told the other day, I'm going to do it. You're nodding. Michael Hitchcock, everybody. He, um, I went up to him before a take of whenever they're in the estate cell. And I said, you should slap Lee on the

ass when you get up there. And like, it's like that stuff that I feel like, you know, it's within the character. It's within the story. And Michael said that, you know, that told him everything that he needed to know about their relationship. And I think it does to an audience too, right? It's like, oh, they have history. They know each other.

They flirt with each other. They mess with each other. They bug each other. You know, whatever. There's all this stuff that's kind of cooked into it. Yeah. That kind of tells your history. And then similarly with Killer Mike, who is amazing,

I was like, first than ever. I mean, like, I love the familiarity that they have with each other. And they are just sitting across from each other. but it's like, you know, I remember Ethan going, maybe I should just like try to sit in this, like, maybe I should sit here. And I was like, well, what if you sit there and then he kicks you out of it? Yeah.

You know what it's like? It's great. There's no reason for it, but it's just right. Get out of my barber chair. And then all of a sudden, they know each other. And you're always hunting for those weird little behaviors that unlock character. Yeah. I mean, we were just talking about all the president's met upstairs,

the scene where he's like, is there anywhere you don't smoke? You know, and it's like, has nothing to do with Nixon, but you're like, oh, I totally understand. the relationship. That movie's a great example. They play a lot of that movie in two shots and wide shots. And it's really great because you can see Hoffman and Redford's interaction. Yeah. So you actually watch them working together. And it's, you don't feel manipulated. And the film has a great sense of realism that's really heightened. And you feel like you're in the room with them because, A, they're good and their behavior is good. But that the director was willing to say, actually,

You know what's interesting about the scene is the way they're sitting, you know, that that's communicating something. And a lot of people just, they come in, they have a shot list in their head, and anytime an actor does anything weird, it's in the director's way, as opposed to how I view, which is trying to help. I wanted to ask you about how you go about creating, for lack of a better term, a vibe for a show. How much of what we just saw is, this is in my head,

and I'm trying to get it out through music, through cinematography, through how I block a scene and how I get performances of actors versus you show up in Tulsa, you turn the cameras on, you have certain performances, and it's like lively and you find it on the day or you find it over the course of production. I think there's some of that is like you show up and Tulsa with the camera turned on, even though I don't show up Tulsa, I live there. But like it is in my head is this vibe. I don't know.

Like I have influences. You know, I've talked about the long goodbye. You know, we were watching, we talked a lot about the long goodbye. and killing a Chinese bookie and like, you know, drowning pool and all these, all these, you know, the big Lebowski and all of these things. I don't know. It's what I see in my head, let's say that. But I also got really good.

I'm really grateful for, I think of it as like Altman or like Sunil Matt or someone like, when Altman was doing a lot of TV directing, you know, you're able to make mistakes and learn kind of what you want and you learn kind of what you like. I did a lot of short documentaries. Some of it for the this land press that Heartland Press is based on but I made a lot of short documentaries and the thing about short documentary making documentaries is you walk into a space you have to right off the bat know where the camera goes, how to edit it, how to tell the story you're trying to tell and how to get a performance out of someone.

And that was just like over and over this repetition. It trained me to be able to, I think, keep things alive and kind of moving and not feel too bored. But I mean, I guess I don't even know if I answer the question, but it is a vibe that I want to create. Like I feel it, you know, but it is a feeling. It's hard to kind of explain it, I guess. The show you guys just watched is exactly what he described to me when we were first talking about what it would. And it happens slowly shot by shot. It gets unveiled. I remember when I was younger and I was I was doing Dead Poet Society with Peter Weir. I had the distinct feeling that he had seen the movie before, like 30 years ago,

and he was remembering the movie. So it's kind of like you'd be blocking a scene. And when he'd be like, you'd just be looking at it's like something's like, it's not the way I remember it, you know? And then you'd go over and sit there or do something weird with your hair and be like, oh, that's it. That's in the movie. Like, as if like he was, do you know what I mean?

Yeah. It's very strange to me because that is how it happens. And I think it's just, I am playing it in my head and I think about it for so long. Even before I write anything down, I'm thinking about what I want to write down. And I think about it for so long. And I write to music and I do have the vibe in my head. And the beautiful thing about this, and this wasn't, you know, for filmmakers out there, like it wasn't like that for me in the first half of my career.

It wasn't until reservation dogs that I got good enough, like confidence met with talent, I think. and I got good enough to see it in my head and then watch it come alive in front of me. And the beautiful thing about when it started happening with the reservation dogs, and especially this, is it was better than what. It was what I had in my head, but it was better. Yeah. Yeah, but it wasn't always like that. Let's talk Tulsa, which is arguably your co-star in this, in the show.

I've been there once last year, and it was unlike any place else. And I think that this show does this incredible job evoking. that. Even did you spend much time there other than shooting reservation dogs before making one out? I just driven through Tulsa my whole life until, until Res Dogs. And when I got to that set, and I felt it immediately, I felt so comfortable. The energy that, oh, you know, the production designer, the sound engineer, the first AD, the whole team, they trust each other and they believe in each other and they have a great strange combination of immense gratitude for the privilege of getting to be a professional creative person met with this irreverence of like I've got this opportunity

fuck it I'm doing something with it yeah you know I'm not and so it had a rebellious spirit and and the humility of gratitude and it was really pleasant to be on and the way Eric He almost bought a house there. He won't quit talking about it. It wasn't just Sterling. It was the company of players and of people that really cared about making something to make it, not about what was going to happen later or what it was going to get them. It's like, what are we doing today?

How could today be cool? And that's an energy that really, really turns me on and is pervasive in Tulsa. The history of Tulsa, the pain. of Tulsa, the love of Tulsa is, it's right on the surface. And, you know, we've seen a lot of noirs in, you know, New York and L.A. and Chicago and Boston and New Orleans. And this is a really unique part of America that is actually extremely interesting to be at right now. Yeah. To talk about all the crimes of America are on the surface in Oklahoma. They're right there and you can see them in the people and the places in the architecture it's it's alive and it's

present and so it's a perfect place for noir um yeah it's also like i don't know i think there's something and everyone can have this there's this especially i'm talking about the film side of things because there's such a lot of us you know it's growing the film industry there but it's like it's been so few and far between we're all all independent filmmakers so when we got these opportunities, res dogs and, you know, something like Killers of the Flower Moon comes and shoots there. It's like, everyone is just so excited to be working on something. And I just think like, and that's not just Tolson's, you know, people from L.A., crew from L.A. or crew from Louisiana or Atlanta would come and work as well with us. And, you know, like, they would just be crushed that

they had to leave because they just felt something there. And it was that mix of what Ethan's talking about. And also, like, just being so happy to be doing this. I mean, this is what we're doing. You know, we're trying to tell stories. I'll give you an example. We had the rap party when we finally wrapped the show. And it wasn't anywhere. It just was right where we finished shooting.

A party erupted. We were on a street in Tulsa. And, you know, somebody brought some beers. Somebody brought all of the trucks just lowered their, whatever that thing is. Yeah. And everybody just starts sitting on it. And music was. playing, somebody lights a fire, and everybody starts congregated. And I hung out there for a couple

hours. It's like, all right, this is, this is fun. I never seen this happen. But I've got to go pack because I'm flying tomorrow. So I left for a couple hours. And I packed up the house and fed the dogs. And I was like, it's like now 1230. I'm like, what if they're still there? So I get in the car and I drive over. Everybody's still partying. There's more people there. I'm like, all right, parked the car and sit down for another couple hours. And that doesn't happen. I wanted to ask you about the strip that Lee's bookstore is on, because it is kind of a slice of heaven on earth. You've got a touch of vinyl, the record store.

You've got- Josh Fadem. Josh Fadam store, everybody. You've got the law offices making Blair's law offices. And then you've got sweet emilis. Yeah, sweet emilis, which is a diner out of my dreams. And then Houdao books, don't forget. And the moment Ethan walks into Houdal before he gets jumped and he's like,

I'm home. And it's like you've, I think everybody here has probably had that feeling walking into a used bookstore. You're like, I'm going to spend three hours here. Yeah, this is awesome. Tell me about making this little world inside of Tulsa. Because you had to construct that, right? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, what's interesting is that block's really cool. I mean, my first feature film that I ever made four sheets to the wind, I shot there. So like, we just kind of like in that same building. And I made a diner and I made a bar. And the main character lived upstairs. where Lee lives. And it just so happened that this building was free again, and we rented it.

And this old restaurant diner thing, nothing ever survives on that corner. And so we just like, I would love to open that diner, you know, like keep it. But like, we just, it was basically having a little back lot on 6th Street in Tulsa and able to put, and we rented it all. And we put all of the businesses right there. And it was just sort of, you know, because at first it was like, you know, at first, he actually went to the cover show as like the Waffle House. Then he would come back to the bookstore.

Nothing was close. But it was like, what if they're all kind of close together? And then it just represents Tulsa as a street, a specific part of Tulsa, you know. And it just worked out beautifully, you know, and it's like, and you know, Cody Lightning, who plays Whalen, who's the wild guy with cowboy hat, who's like, you know, I kill people, Lee. Funny enough, he was the lead actor at 19 years old and four sheets to the wind in that blog. So he got to come back and...

That's amazing. You got to come back and do security. Let's talk a little bit about the lead that inspired this character and also some of the themes of the show itself. You know, I got a chance to watch... Maybe it's the one that you made. I was watching the YouTube about the Tulsa Riala earlier today. and I was like, oh, I had no idea. Was it with Leroy?

Yeah. And I was like, I made all those. Yeah, I had no idea like whether or not, Ethan, you had drawn, was there a line where you're like, I'm going to be inspired by this character, but there are going to be certain flourishes that I bring? I should say that what mattered to me is, you know, I, Sterling sent the script. I loved it. So let's do this.

I've never done it until. I've never accepted a part. He certainly says a thousand times. I said it to him all the time. Like, I've never done this where I took a part where I haven't read it. That's my whole teaching, my whole understanding of performance is to understand the theme and metaphor of a piece so that my performance isn't about entertaining people. It's in service of a story. That's where you can get lost and lose yourself.

And that's what feels really good to me. And I was like, I don't know exactly how to do this. And I wanted to understand what the lowdown was going to be about. What is it about besides making people be amused? And Stolen came over to my house and showed me all these videos that he made. Kind of way later, too. It was after we had already, the script was already. Yeah, it was much late.

We knew we were really doing it. And you came over the house and we watched a bunch of those and you sent him to me. And what mattered to me is that the show is coming from a real place. the engine is that this person has something to communicate. And what Leroy Chapman was obvious was a really special person and obviously somebody to be admired and somebody I was really interested in, but he also represented something to Sterland that really interested me. When I was growing up and like at first becoming an adult in the arts, you meet people

who are extremely idealistic and their idealism and their passion. is blistering and amazing and inspiring. And it creates blind spots. You know, they don't see the glasses of wine. Their tail is breaking over, you know, because they're so hell-bent to do this thing to them as noble. And that part of the character, and that part of people that I do,

it's a story I really love to tell of people who are willing to put themselves online for something they believe in and for something that is in service to others, that they see themselves as interconnected with their community and that my well-being is connected to your well-being. And the truth of being a journalist is very similar to the spiritual truth of wanting to be a performer, to drive it, to give people something true to look at so you can see your own life, reflect on it, reflect on your culture, get outside of your own point of view. All these things are the mission of my life. And so I could see that in Lee. And I could also, I mean, we have friends, I have friends who've died because they can't see

those blind spots, you know, that their cause is noble. But the internal damage that's created or the damage to their family and damage to other things because they're so blindly in pursuit of what they love. And that contradiction of it, being both noble and destructive seemed real to me. And these, his, Sterling's work with Leroy Chapman was inspirational to, like, I knew that was the engine of the show. Does that make sense? Yeah. And it's also, I think, you know, the thing that he and I bond over and the character is like, it's scary to know that you're passionate about doing these things.

And it's like, to what end? You know, like we're sitting here and we did something that we can be very proud of. But there's also versions of us that did something and destroyed their lives or whatever. You know, they took some wrong turns or whatever. Hurt their family. Yeah, hurt their family, whatever. And he and I talked a lot about the father-daughter relationship in that way. Because at the time, when I was it, when my daughter was that age, and it was a lot of like being an independent filmmaker,

should I keep doing this? We were in, you know, it was hard to make. money. I didn't know if I was ever going to make money. And it was very inspired by that. He's a father of two daughters as well. And as far as like Leroy, too, it was like it was kind of this it was this idea though of, A, I didn't want him to feel, like it wasn't a biopic. I didn't want him to feel like he had to do one thing. You know, I wanted him to be free in that. So that's why it was just kind of a jumping off point. But yes, like it was to be embody these people that kind of inspire us and sometimes, you know, get too close to the flames.

Yeah, I mean, I found him to be an incredibly entertaining inheritor of the legacy of, like, the private investigator over the course of, you know, probably all the books and movies that we love. And there are some guys who are just like really laconic and they'll do something a little bit just to watch what happens. And then there are the guys who were shambolic and they kind of just happen into it. But Lee is like, I'm fucking jumping through the glass window here. and we'll see who reacts to what here.

But you can tell the Makin Blair character is like, he's a loon, but he's really entertaining. You know, Mike's character obviously has this effect. Everybody has this affection for him, but they kind of have to stay a little bit out of the blast radius, right? Yeah, it's scary to give me that close to someone like that, right? Like, you have to protect yourself too. But you care about it, but you also know,

I mean, like even, you know, CNN East who plays Dietrich right over here, she's like, look, she's like, you know, it affects me too. Like, this is your place. This is my place of work as well. Because one of my favorite lines is when he's like, yeah, people can beat up all time. People always can beat up. You know, it's like, do they?

Like, I don't know if that's true. And, you know, and Deidre's like, yeah, well, you got to like, this is our place of business. It also affects me, you know, and I think that that's kind of everyone's relationship with them. the one that loves him the most, I think, being his daughter, you know, and that's kind of the heart of the story. That's the scariest relationship because it's like, that's the thing that you got to protect. I'm excited for you guys to get to see the rest of the show because everything's throwing, it's talking about is manifest in the show.

Even just in this episode, an incredibly, you're like a five tool player in this one because you've got to do humor. You got to be vulnerable. You got to get your ass beat a couple of times. and you are like the expository folkroom for the show. Like you are the one who's like, and then all of this has happened and all of this might happen because of that. And it's like, Ethan's the best at saying,

we got to get all this information out. Here, let me just see how I can say it. You know, and like just cooks it down to like really quick in a couple of lines and bam, the exposition is out the door. You know, it's great.

But did you find that the nature of the things that were being asked of you almost fueled the desperation of the performance or the character itself kind of? Yeah. I mean, there's a rebellious spirit to Sterling. There's a rebellious spirit to try to make a show like this and put it out into the homes of America and say the thing, just to imagine that anyone would care. You know, and we had a lot of pressure on us in that and not enough time. And you can use that as permission to fail or you can use it.

as wood in the stove. Yeah. You know? And so I enjoy that. I felt like we were making an epic, you know, eight-hour indie movie. And we were trying to shoot it well, trying to shoot it smart. And I know that all that has to do with preparation in your mind. And sometimes it's like all those movies that we love, you know?

Like we're in L.A. right now. I'm sure all of you are like movie lovers. It's like all those movies that we love. of, well, somebody made them, you know, somebody blocked those scenes. Somebody wrote those words. They weren't superhuman. They were humans, just like us. But they were like, oh, I'm going to say something. And they made the right amount of things and put it in a stew. And they wouldn't give up from making something interesting and seeing what was in their head making it happen, you know? And that's such an attainable thing. And we just did it. I mean, we just fought for it.

after day. I get so inspired. Like, I watch, before we started, I watch the Long Goodbye again. If you watch the opening of that movie, it's amazing. There's this whole sequence about him getting cat food. It's like 30 minutes of a cat. You know, and there's best cat actor. When it first starts, he's sitting there in bed

and you see all these marks on the wall above him. You're like, what are those marks? And then he lights his first cigarette. And you're like, oh, that's, and the filmmaker in me goes, all right, who had that idea? That's a great, I mean, it's just a, the tiny detail. So easy to do the scene without that detail. Yeah. And yet that detail makes the whole thing come alive and the way he talks to himself and mumbles and you can't, you can just hear the

studio executive saying, I can't understand what he's saying. And it's okay. Neither can I. It's cool. But it's the pull to mediocrity is so strong. There's so much fear in whenever anybody's making art, that's not going to work. That's not going to work. And you do have to consider it all. You do have to think about it all. And you also have to sometimes just go, I think it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And what do we remember that movie for? The cats. They can't. Yeah. And I mean, hats off to FX for giving us freedom to do. A lot of them are here tonight. And I feel so blessed to have my first experience in television be with them because these people are all really serious about putting substantive meaningful art into the world and making it a commercial enterprise.

What if we could do something really cool and have it at work? And they're dedicated to it and they've been supporting us. And the only reason we were able to do that is because of the positivity that you built with reservation dogs. And they've done with a lot of shows besides the shows were involved with. I wanted to know what was the thing that surprised you most about making a mystery to the extent that you would define this as one, but like, man, I get

pretty cocky about it because I watch a lot of them and I read a lot of them. I'm like, well, you know, they've kind of tipped their hand here. Is there a little bit of like, oh, now I'm in now I'm the guy deciding like who done it and it was like. Yeah, it's so difficult. It's like, one of the hardest things ever.

Like, I can write people hanging out all day. You know, like, I can do in my sleep and dialogue and character. Like, I'm on top of it. Like, I got you. Throw a bit of mystery in there and a conspiracy plot. Just split's faces. It's four letters that are hard for you.

P-L-O-T. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Most definitely. But it was such a good challenge. And I mean, like, with reservation dogs, well, reservation dogs taught me, because we would play, as we talked about,

like, we would play with genre in different episodes. You know? Yeah. And what I fell in love with was how much I could say in the episodes that I played with, that I was sort of making a genre piece. And like all of a sudden I realized like, oh, you can actually say more with genre than you can just out there, you know, free balling or whatever. You know, like you can say more within the parameters that you set up for yourself.

And that's exciting to me. That's like super exciting. And so that was exciting. but then, you know, once you're in the mystery of it all, I mean, here's the thing. I have, I treat everything the same, which is like, whether it's blocking, whether it's like watching a performance, whether it's writing a scene, whether it's writing dialogue. I always, it goes through like my brain filter, which is, have I seen this before? I don't want to ever see, I don't want to ever do something I haven't seen before. Or if it's, I've seen it before, I want it to be very

different. And how do I change it? How do I put life into it? How do I bring something new to it? and I went after the plot and the crime the same way. And also, you know, hired Walter Mosley and other really great crime writers to help me. So, you know, that was also a part of it. One of my favorite things about this episode that you guys got to see is just the tapestry of stuff that the viewer gets introduced to Jim Thompson, Bob Will's, the, you know, 70s music, the 70s film font of the. credit sequence. And I thought maybe as a last question, I'd ask you guys, what's one thing that you discovered, writer, musician, something over the course of maybe making this show together or hanging out that you wouldn't have, didn't know about before, but you got turned on to

because I think a lot of people are going to get turned on to some really cool stuff by watching this. I'll start. Thank God. Help me with there's, well, she's not in this episode, but the wonderful actor who plays Pearl. Oh, Ken Palmeroy in front of him. Yeah, well, one of the things about hanging out with Sterling that's so wonderful, which strangely, a lot of the best artists I've worked with, the best artist I've worked with, have a love of other artists, painters, musicians, filmmakers, writers,

and you're always telling everybody to go check this out and go check this out. And music is a particular passion of yours. and you cast this young woman who I had never met before, who's just a brilliant singer-songwriter and she can act. And it ended up making what could have been a two-dimensional character or really three-dimensional presence in the show. And I could say the same thing about Jacob Tovar. And so basically I take the whole crew and everybody,

we go listen to my friends play music every week while we're shooting. It's pretty beautiful. And then you put everybody in the show. Yeah, then everyone's an actor at the show. That's not a bad life, man. Thank you guys so much for doing this, and thank you so much for making such a great show. Thank you so much.

Thank you, everybody. Thanks to everybody at Brain Dead. Take care. Footing off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years proving it doesn't have to be. And today is your last chance to save big on spring black Friday deals. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro to handle everything for measure to install, we've got you.

Free samples, real design experts, and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. Shop up to 45% off with minimum purchase, plus get a free professional measure during the Blinds.com's spring Black Friday last chance sale. Rules and restrictions apply.