The Watch - All of the Marvel News Out of Comic-Con, Plus 'Better Call Saul' S6E10

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about all of the Marvel news that came out of Comic-Con this weekend, including what we can expect from Phase Five of the MCU (1:00) and the trailer for 'Black Panther: Wakanda Forever' (13:36). Then, they break down the latest episode of 'Better Call Saul' (28:26). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Are you tuning in to the Challenge USA on CBS? Well, tune in to me, Tyson Apostle, as I break down each and every episode with my co-host, Amelia Weddemeier. I'm also a contestant on the show, which gives you all the insider scoop. Amelia, how stoked are you to do this? Tyson, I'm freaking excited. I cannot wait to sit my butt down every single week to watch the show, then come here and recap it with you on The Ringer Reality TV podcast. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us,

the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to the watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, the Saul Goodman of Hall H. It's Andy Greenwald. That would be popular, wouldn't it? That's a good thing. I mean, Kevin, cut the check for us, man. What you need in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is a super lawyer. Andy and I are here.

We actually recording this on a Sunday afternoon, so forgive us if anything major happens in culture in the next 24 hours. We needed to do this today for scheduling purpose. but we're delighted to be spending brunch with each other. I thought you were going to say, forgive us for using the Lord's Day in such a way, but I feel like maybe the big man would want it this way. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of stuff to cover.

He's got a lot on his mind, but I think this podcast is chief among them. So here's the deal today. Andy and I are going to talk about all the MCU stuff that came out of Comic Con over the weekend. We're going to kind of just paint the picture, talk about where everything is going. Kevin,

Feigey finally unveiled the roadmap. So now we know it was all worth it. And then in the second half of the show, Andy and I are obviously going to talk about the latest episode of Better Call Call. Saul airs. This episode is going up after Better Call Saul airs. So if you're just here for Saul content,

as I'm sure dozens of you are, just click to the middle of the show. Kyle will have a timestamp. So you're so easily... No, I'm sure lots of people care. You know, I just, I still with Saul, I sometimes wonder how much of it is Netflix, you know, and how many people are like,

I'm going to wait for it to be on Netflix. Despite, you know, the Seppem walls of the world being like, watch this live. But, you know, I kind of still wonder whether people are like, I'm waiting for it to drop on Netflix. I think that's true. But I also think that people who are obsessive fans enough to be watching it on AMC are the people who will want to listen to a podcast about it immediately after it airs. That's us. That's my hope.

Never say we don't serve a niche audience. Let's talk about mainstream culture, though, because comic book culture is mainstream culture, Andy. I don't know if you know that. I've been alerted, yeah. It's been several years since Marvel graced the San Diego Comic Comic Comic. an event you and I are veterans of, at least once, right? We went down there that once. What were you hosting that time?

It was like a Banshee panel? Yeah. I mean, that's on brand, right? We went probably the same year, they were like, Ryan Coogler will direct Black Panther. And I was like, hey, guys, hey Cinemax super fans. Yeah, and then you came down with me. We took the surfliner train after spending a day working at the Granlet office.

We were on the train with big Ron Moore before for all mankind, right? You could adapt them up and been like, space. I see visions. I think that was pre for all mankind, though. Maybe that was before that. Maybe that was where he thought of it, you know, on that train. He saw you. So let's go through some of the stuff that got announced yesterday.

I think that even the biggest Marvel fans have been like, what's up? You know, like, where are we going? Where's this all building? Part of the appeal of the first, I don't know, decade plus of Marvel was the emergence of an execution of a plan. So that even if the movies varied in quality from here to there, you could say, I understand what I'm getting myself into.

And I understand that, like, they keep teasing Thanos. Thanos is going to be a thing. And then eventually it's going to build up to something. And they actually, very few things do, they actually delivered on that promise with the Infinity War and Endgame. And then since then, you know,

you're not going to immediately jump back into, here's seven movies leading to another big team up, superpowered special. film. But it feels like it's been kind of like clawing around in the dark for the light switch. You've had the emergence of Disney Plus as this avenue for them to tell stories that I don't think that Marvel is particularly mastered yet. You've had COVID impact, the production and release schedule of these movies. We've discussed many times about the order in which Strange and Spider-Man and everything came out. Black Widow, is it, you know, like, what does this have to do with

everything? And, you know, this dialogue between the Disney Plus shows and the film, and, you know, the feeling that you need to see everything to understand anything, but then feeling like at the end, what am I actually understanding? There's been a little bit of a cloud, especially over you and I when it comes to us watching this stuff. And people may have noticed, we kind of faded out on Moon Night. We didn't really talk about Miss Marvel, although in a lot of ways I think it was the most successful Disney Plus show.

We're in a little bit of a crossroads. So this was actually, I typically do not, like, wait at the edge of my seat to see Kevin Feigy pat himself on the back, not, you know, he doesn't, he certainly deserves to do it. but this was this was a comic con appearance that I was actually looking forward to as a 44 year old man because I wanted to know how I was going to be like kind of looking at the next couple of years of our pod and culture and everything else and I'm sure you feel the same way so you get to the end of it Andy and how are you feeling about it well I feel okay is that a hedge yeah and I can go through the announcement like just title wise I think there's two you know he

He knows what he's doing. He's a showman. I think he's very, very influenced by the Steve Jobs presentations of like, oh, and just one more thing. Here's a phone that we made. You know what I mean? So there was a moment during his presentation yesterday that we did not attend, but we did trade some text messages and update Twitter.com. So I feel like we were there. And there was a moment when up on the big board, it was like phase five. And it was like the marvels and blade and thunderbolts. Yeah. And you were like, bro. Like, are we sure the driver is sober?

Like, we've been on this bus for a minute. Is this really what people want? And then he did come back with Fantastic Four and these big Avengers movies and committed to a shape that I think a lot of people were beginning to suspect was the shape of where we were headed, which is multiverse stuff and Secret Wars. But before we even get into the specifics,

because I have a lot of thoughts in a lot of directions one of which being, like, they can pretend that people are as excited about, you know, Ironheart or other TV shows as they are about an Avengers movie, but, or Echo. Like, you can put that on the timeline, but I'm not sure just by putting them next to the big guns, they still feel like big guns. And it takes me to my larger point, which is the way you characterize the appeal of the dawn of the MCU is accurate and also representative of how I think it's been, it is considered in terms of, in hindsight, that this is. was a grand gamble on one story that led to endgame. But what that kind of elides is something that I had gotten away from. And it's come up a lot in a surprising way in a project that I'm working on at the moment with people where, like, we're now far enough away from Iron Man and from Captain America, the First Avenger, to talk about them in an almost totemic way of building story.

And the thing that was brought up that I had not considered or remembered in a long time was those movies had endings. You know, yes, at the end of, Iron Man, Nick Fury shows up in a tag and it's like, have you ever heard of the Avengers Initiative? Like, he does that. Sure. But that's not the end of the movie. The end of the movie is Bob Downey's just like exes out Jeff Bridges and it's like, guess what,

I'm Iron Man. Like, that's the movie. And then could it be another one? Yes, but it is satisfying in a way. And Captain America was a prequel that's set in the 40s and told a story. Thor movie, whether, you know, you like it or not or you needed a little more guns and roses in it, like kind of told a story. Now, we've talked before about how crucial the casting,

was now incredibly lucky they got with the charismatic actors they cast in these roles that we were all excited about seeing them come together. But this long monologue is just to say, characters and worlds and vibes were established and then brought together. And it worked. And even, yeah, it worked, but we're still like, we kind of don't really talk about the Jos Weedon movies as part of it anymore. We really almost like go Winter Soldier to end game and like, what a run. Yeah, but in some ways, like they're still talking like their characters in Joss Whedon movies. That's one thing that I think I... Sure. Great point.

there are a lot of reasons why I'm going to remain engaged with this project. I think some people think we do it just out of like we feel like compelled to because it's what the most popular thing is. There are plenty of things that are pretty popular that we don't talk about. Yes. I certainly would love to have an awesome Thunderbolts movie. I mean, these are, these are stories that I'm, I'm disposed to like in terms of like, I'm totally fine watching superheroes.

I think that we've hit like a little bit of a point of stasis in terms of the aesthetics, in terms of the storytelling, in terms of like, quite frankly, like the assembly of these products as like pieces of content where it's like, they just feel a little shoddy and a little rushed and a little like assembled by committee and not quite sure what they exactly needs to do because they never quite know what's going to be happening next. There was a really interesting, I think we talked about this a thread a little while ago on Twitter about how a lot of these Disney Plus shows were shot essentially in the same block of time. And, you know, they overlapped a lot so that they never quite knew what one show was going to be finished,

finishing with, and another show was going to be starting with, and which is why, like, all of a sudden in one of these shows, there just seems to be a plot stapled onto it, that you're not quite sure why it matters, you know? And I think that I just would love to see, like, more than the multiverse or Secret Wars or anything that we're going to get is some evolution. in terms of how they're doing these movies and how they're doing these shows. And it's more of like a almost a consumer complaint that I have at this point.

Oh, I agree with all that. I just think for me, the plot and the momentum is significant, but it is the people wearing the suits. And I just am not sure yet if we've spent enough time or if even the characters are worth it. You know, we spent enough time with these characters

or if they are worth the time so that, so for people don't know, Thunderbolt's concept. We don't actually know the details of it. But it was a very clever comic about 20 years ago. The great comic writer Kurt Busiak created it where a new super team emerges and people who've never seen before and are making a big splash. And it's slowly revealed that they're actually all villains who have tried to become heroes. And they're led by Baron Zima, who is played by Daniel Bruill in the movies. There is a lot of assumption, I think most likely correct, that the Thunderbolts initiative or project,

is what Julie Louis Dreyfus' character is doing in the margins of these movies. So we're looking at some combination of Daniel Bruill, Wyatt Russell, Florence Pugh. Now, I will see projects with any of those three people. Yeah. I am a fan of all three of those performers. Is it just me, though, that I'm like,

I feel a little cart before the horse when the word thunderbolts goes on the display in two years and I get a charge out. I don't feel connected or excited about it in the way that I might have about other projects. Now, it's all creator-dependent, but, you know, this is the MCU. They're not announcing the creators. We don't know who's directing or writing these Avengers movies, which also feels significant

because thus far, very few people have proved able to execute things like this. Now, Feige isn't revealing everything. One of the most typical and also a little bit aggravating pieces of yesterday's info dump was that they were like, oh, 20 more projects are going to be announced at D23 or whatever in two months. And so there's more to come. Right. But, you know, it, you feel more secure, I guess, in the big picture, because that feeling of kind of like, what's the point since these don't really stand on their own, this particular phase that we're in now?

But a lot of questions about the creative. Well, the phase that we're in now is going to be ending with Black Panther, Wakanda forever, which did have its trailer debut at Comic Con and is now available to watch. Some of the trailers that they showed and some of the teasers that they showed, I don't think have come online. like there was a secret invasion one, Ant Man one, a Guardians of the Galaxy teaser, but like they put up the Wakanda Forever trailer. And thank God,

because that movie is coming out in like three months. That is a good example of what you're talking about, where for tragic circumstances, this movie is going to have to be about loss and grief and how you move forward with a legacy and all these things that are going to be tied up with both Chadwick Boseman, but also the character that he played.

But taking it for what it is, because they did make the movie, and this is obviously something that's incredibly important to a lot of people out there, including us, like, we love that movie. Coogler is one of the best directors of his generation. It's got all these incredible performers. Aside from the fact that I thought it just looked pretty cool on a level that maybe Thor and some of the other movies that we've seen recently didn't, it was almost bracing to be like, oh, man, this is what happens when you have an emotional connection to a story and characters.

I'm so glad you led with that because, yeah, I watched the trailer and I was like, this is sick. Like, it looks amazing. Aesthetically, it looks amazing. The way the soundtrack goes from No Woman, No Cry into Kendrick Lamar is just awesome. I'm here for Atlantis. I'm here for Namor. Like, I love the casting. I love the energy this dude's bringing.

But I do think it's worth saying that, I just want to reiterate what you said, because that was my feeling as well. like everyone on this podcast and on planet Earth wishes Chadwick Boseman was still alive, full stop. And then also still alive playing this character and doing whatever he wanted with the richness of his years because he just seems like a beautiful person and an incredible talent. That said, this movie is supercharged now because it does seem like Coogler, who had written an entire script for Tachala and then had to scrap it and write a new script steered into the circumstance.

It does not feel like this movie is going to pretend that he could walk through the door at any moment or there was always a plan for succession or whatever. This movie has a gravitas already now. Actually, let me just say, this franchise already had a gravitas due to the creative heights that it was lifted to by invested people, you know,

like Ryan Coogler, like all the actors. But this made me excited in a way that I didn't expect and emotional in a way I didn't expect. And I think that seeing Wakanda again through Kugler's lens, and I keep using him as shorthand for all the brilliant creative people who worked on these movies. That's not fair, but that's kind of the way it is. I think I would have felt that same kind of lift. But, man, there's a lot of feeling baked into this. And in some ways it kind of... Feeling is foreign to this, these movies generally, that level of engagement of emotion.

Yeah, and in some ways it kind of clarified for me. I mean, that ends phase four. And when you think about a lot of the stuff that we've watched over the last couple of years, you know, part of it has been growing pains of them trying to grow new performers into either previously held mantles or new characters so that when you watch the Kang Dynasty, it feels as sort of important or immense as Infinity War, right? Like, you're trying to essentially get Haley Steinfeld and, like, you know, you know, like these, all these characters who have been sort of being moved into, to we've got a She-Hulk, we've got a new Hawkeye, we've got Iron Heart, we've got these

characters kind of like emerging. Now they may all just be penned off and done and they'll just do Young Avengers or they'll do like some cool Disney Plus show team up stuff and who knows, like maybe Chris Evans is just going to be like there at the end of the day. But like it is pretty interesting to see, you know, when you're watching a movie like Black Panther, Wakanda forever and the entire film is going to be kind of like, okay, now we have like a hole in the center of this. Reckoning with that, it is kind of like what the entire MCU has been facing as your Downey's, your Evans' phase out of the project.

And so let me then say, pivot to say that like this is the right next big story for them. It's feels of the moment. It's, it's, it's teasing. I mean, multiversal storytelling is in, you know, and was in before Kevin Feigey steered the MCU. direction, right? I mean, the Star Trek reboot was that. D.C. has basically declared that's their brand in a way that I think the Flash movie feels like almost an orgy of that, right? Like, it's just everybody is everyone. And Michael Keaton is Batman again. So it is the right move, I think.

The concern always is when you have just variants of people, then they're just essentially red shirts that you don't care about. Yeah, I mean, that's the issue is strange. Yeah, the Dr. Strange two thing. I saw, did you see this? Someone referred to Dr. Strange 2 as Dr. Strange 2, colon, never give a woman a book, which I have to say. I wish I could credit whoever wrote that. I thought that was funny. So what work is going to be done in the next?

And, you know, yeah, you throw the titles up and it says 20, 25, but that's three years away. These movies take three years to make. So they're already well on their way to some form of development. And they're all written in the Marvel style, which means. many sliding door versions. There's a version of the script, probably, where Evans or Downey or someone comes back, and there's a version where they decide not to.

They're prepared for all those eventualities. So all that to be said, if you're colliding multiversal variants of characters, who are we carrying? Yeah, exactly. It's already decentering. So I'm excited there's going to be an Avengers movie, two Avengers movies in one year.

Who's leading the Avengers? Now, I mean that sincerely. I want to know. No, I'm asking. Please. Could somebody, you know, follow up? So I'm curious. Now, I think the other thing that's clear that's worth commenting on is they're pot committed to Jonathan Majors now, right? Like, Kang is the guy. Yeah. Playing different versions of Kang across many movies. And then I guess maybe even getting his own movie at some point. Now, this is wild. Like, this is basically like when who it's like with, like with a base, like with the Nationals or someone or the Marlins. like have get a good player and they rush to the agent.

And they're like, we know your client is 19, but we'd like to sign him for the next 30 years. Because they know that if they don't, it'll cost $30 million a year later. So it's a big bet. I think this guy is talented enough to carry it. And I guess I'm kind of happy with that commitment because it means that there will be one constant.

The single best thing I've seen in a Marvel anything in the last three years was that last, was the Kang scene in Loki. Yeah, it was awesome. So you mentioned like the early you know the weed and stuff and I was kind of reading a bit about these movies and kind of refreshing myself my memory

about like some of the earlier phases when Love and Thunder came out and I kind of forgotten the impact that James Gunn had when he came on and took Guardians in the direction that he did that Tyca did had when he took Ragnarok in the direction that he did

and ultimately that the Russo's had when they kind of settled everything thing and maybe even were the right guys for the moment when it was like Captain America and you know and Civil War and these Avengers films you know until the end of the Avengers films where they're truly out in space but this idea that it's very much like more or less like urban thriller you know like kind of the overtones that it had were much more of like government conspiracy and superheroes trying to figure out what side of what they're on and stuff like that. They found the right directors, but they also let those directors take things in different

directions. So you mentioned the fact that there are no directors currently attached to these movies. John Watts was supposed to be directing Fantastic Four, but he's not. I think Jake Schreier is doing Thunderbolts, but there are not a lot of big names or even names attached to these movies yet. Those names still may move these things in different directions. And by the time we get to 2025, there may be a new aesthetic for these films in some ways. I agree. I would, say, though, I'm going to put myself out there with a prediction. I would say that whoever is directing the Avengers movies has directed something for Marvel already. Okay. I think that there is the prerequisite for those jobs is not the same as you want to take a crack at having a take on

the Eternals. It is, can you manage the most complicated filmmaking of, most complicated, most 21st century filmmaking task that's out there. It is a management job in a different way. I wouldn't be, I don't have any insight. But did John Watts go off Fantastic Ford because he's doing Avengers? I thought he went off Fantastic Ford because he's making the Star Wars thing. Because he's making the Jude Law, Skeleton Crew. He's making a TV show, yeah.

That's definitely true. But you know what I mean? Like, he can do it. And I think that they feel very comfortable with him. So I'm wondering who has done these TV shows. that they're like, okay, we see you, we know what you can do, and we're into it. It's funny because, like, as much as the MCU has changed what movies mean, it's almost like, on some level, I bet Faggy wishes he could just break these movies into episodics and hire,

like, the five people who delivered on, you know, Matt Shackman on Wanda Vision and Jack Schaefer, like these people who have just really delivered episodically for him. You and I both know how this ends, and it's Martin Scorsese directing Secret Wars at age 86, and then the universe fucking turns itself inside out. A million percent, I can't wait. And by the way, like, the missing thing in this is there was no X-Men announcement. And I have to say, I respect it. X-Men is too, it remains too big to muddy these waters.

Now, that said... But that, I mean, does it scare... How do you feel about that that is obviously what's going to be coming out in 2028 or whatever, or 2027, 9? I'm really curious. I mean, again, we talk about this so much because I think we're really interested in the stuff that we may never know, which is all the permutations these ideas went through in the pitches and how close alternate realities came to happening. And the last few years of Feige being like, I have the X-Men back. Talk to me about it. And I'm sure people have pitched multi-tiered interconnected TV storytelling the likes have never been seen before because the X-Men really would support that. And I'm sure people have been like, we're going to put Wolverine. in the quantum zone, and then we're going to build out from there, you know, or Ms. Marvel is secretly a mutant, and now we know what this is. You know, there are many options and many ways to go forward. Ultimately, if they're doing anything close to what Secret Wars was in the recent comics.

The Hickman version. The Hickman version. Now, for people, I'll do the quick version. In the early 80s, the editor-in-chief of Marvel was just like, we need something really big and splashy, and it's also as a collaboration with a toy company. So we're going to have a creature called the Beyonder, who's an infinite power who gathers up, every hero from Earth puts them on a planet called Battleworld and tells them to fight each other. That's one version. The version that was incredible that I think is where we're headed was an Avenger story that lasted years, written by Jonathan Hickman, that was based on this idea of the incursions where two realities, two dimensions crash into each other and only one can survive. And the Illuminati,

which we saw in Dr. Strange, too, are fighting these incursions. And the last incursion creates annihilates reality and there's just a new reality where all the heroes are living on one feudal place in very different roles. And that seems like some version of it they were heading to. Now, there are a lot of characters in the MCU. I mean, that's very tantalizing.

And also, like, pretty dark compared to the, like, kind of more affirmative stuff that we've seen in terms of like, you know, just get past it and we can be a family again. It's like, I don't know. You want to go fight on Battleworld? It's super dark.

But the question is also who is, and they have many characters, but like without a major plank of X-Men, like, can you fill that? Now, if it's a two-hour movie, yes, you can't. You have enough characters already, relax. But it is interesting if X-Men are being held back from this. But Fantastic Four are coming. And again, you can sort of see the tea leaves. And I'm pretty into this. This is my assumption is that the Fantastic Four are going to crash through at an incursion.

Like that they are the, that way they get to do the thing that I feel like will honor the legacy. Fantastic Four is the first Marvel comic, the first Marvel fan, the first family, the first superhero. They don't exist in the MCU and never did. But they did in another time universe. Yes. So you can have their history on their reality and then they crash through to fight whatever they need to fight. And I'm kind of into that. Do you want me to run through the titles and you can stop me if you want to just say anything about them?

Sure. We probably should have done this in the beginning, but you know, it's podcasting. So like I said, phase four ends with Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. Phase 5 begins with Ant Man on the Wasp, Quantum Mania. Which was reported as being dark. And I'm like, great. That's what I want from an Ant Man movie. Darkness.

Guardians of the Galaxy, Volume 3, also 2023. The Marvel's, 20203, and Blade, 2023. So all those movies coming out next year. Then Captain America, New World Order, and the Thunderbolts in 2024. Those films will be supported or embellished with the shows, the Disney Plus shows, Secret Invasion, Echo, the second season of Loki, Iron Heart, Agatha Coven of Chaos, and Daredevil, Cullen, Born Again, an 18 episode series with Vincent DiNafrio and Charlie Cox. That's the one I want to salute. That is elite bullshit.

18 episodes of Daredevil? God bless you. I think that's incredible. Phase six that we've been kind of basically talking about this entire time is Fantastic 4 in 2024, and we'll conclude with the Avengers colon the Kang Dynasty in 2025 and Avengers Secret Wars in 2025. So right now they have those slated for the same year. Great. Sure. I mean, that'll give us a lot of content.

Yeah, I mean, that, I just think it's interesting because those are good and enticing projects. And the macro thinking of Fige and his lieutenants is sound. You know what I mean? Like, we've done the diagnostics. Everybody relax. The question is, this time, though, who are the Avengers? Like, I really mean that.

Like, I don't know who is populating these movies, so I have a different relationship to it, which is the inverse of what it was like. Last time we went through this big announcement about the path forward, where we didn't really know what an Avengers movie would look like or what they were going to do with the Infinity Saga, but we knew Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett-Johans, and all these people were going to be in it. and that felt stabilizing.

Yeah. So it's still unprecedented. By the time these movies are done, it will be almost 20 years since this project started, which is just jaw-dropping. I just really hope people can make nope over these years.

Like I also just really hope that this doesn't black out the sun and we're just, and there's like the possibility of original, interesting mainstream filmmaking, to say nothing of independent or underground filmmaking,

whatever that is, isn't like completely shunted because we've consolidated into like three streaming service mega corporations that are having interconnected preexisting IP universes. Like that'll be a bummer. Classic snowflake turn from Chris. Yeah. Classic classic. Let's take a break.

And then when we come back, we'll talk about the latest episode of Better CallSaw. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize? you're missing something. Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you

by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a two percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Okay, we're back. And Andy, I chose specifically to lead with the Marvel stuff today because there is a world in which you could look at this third to last episode

of Better Call Saul, directed by one of the Rushmore directors of the Breaking Bad Better Call Saul universe Michelle McLaren, written by Allison Tatlock, following up perhaps the best episode of the show in its series history and Nippy, the episode we're going to talk about, might feel a little bit minor.

Now there's a world that you could say that. even though we have now fully joined Gene in his black and white Nebraska existence, all sorts of deep inside Cineban knowledge we get from this. Did this episode make you crave Cinebin at all? No, I found the repeated... Jim O'Hare eating the Cineabon? I found it appalling, like in the best way. And let me just speak my truth.

Sure. I've never been a Cinebun guy. Can I? I need to ask you a follow up immediately, though. Okay, because it's connected to you where I'm going with this. I think Cinnabon is in the hot nuts category of it smells so much better than it tastes. Oh, I agree. It smells.

Like when you're walking down New York, a street in New York City in the fall or winter, and you smell the fucking toasted prelines, and you're just like, I bet that tastes better than anything that has ever, like, like, forget Noma. I'm trying to eat these prelions. And they're just not that good. They're okay. But nobody ever finishes the bag. You have like two and you're like,

now I have weird prelines in my teeth and I can't get this taste out of my mouth for the rest of the day. And you're circling Central Park and a handsome cab somehow. So that's how I feel about Sinai. Sinaiban used to be a staple of CR's like Liberty Place Cherry Home Mall youth.

But when you eat it. A staple of your youth, Chris Ryan buying a Cineban is a staple of the New Jersey Turnpike experience. Yeah, that's my youth. I'm in my 40s. I don't still do it. I'm not saying you do it now, but I didn't know we were considering our 20s, our youth, because there was a time when you and I would just like, you know, run the road.

We would be traveling often between New York City where we lived in Philadelphia, where our family were. Just like letting original pirate material bang. And we would stop at the Joyce Kilmer Plaza from time to time, perhaps to use the restroom. And when I would emerge in the restroom, CR would be indulgent in a little sweet, sticky treat. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. You would rock that cinnamon bun and I respected it. Do you know what it was, though? It was like, I went straight for intravenous injection with those things. I would just cut right to the center and get the like full jugular blast of cinnamon and cream cheese hot, soft center. And then I would be like, let's keep moving.

We got to get to exit four, you know? Yeah, you were, because the Better Call Saul episode presents Jim O'Hare's, you know, very rigorous devouring, you know, like as if that's the way to do it. Like, that's the old, there is no one way. I kind of appreciate that you cut to the chase. I also, before we even get more specific, want to say that I love the entire Cinnabon piece of this. They clearly got the corporation to green light it when Gene Tachovic first appeared. Right. And one of the less heralded parts of the Breaking Bad Better Calls All Universe that I think is just absolutely genius is the way it spotlights a very particular brand of American mediumness, which is not to be critical or snobby. It's just remember Walter White's Pontiac, which was just this, like the car that he had was just kind of like it was neither good nor bad.

It was just emblematic of extremely 2006. Yeah. And I love that it doesn't run from that. And so he worked at Cinebun, people enjoy it. And this is a way it looks, feels, and sounds. Shout out to the sound engineer in this episode. Okay. So to your other point, one of the things that I found most revealing from our really

phenomenal, wonderful talk with Peter Gould, I'm not saying it because it was such a great interview by us. It was just we love doing it. He was so fun to talk to. Was the palpable joy. Never ever doubt Peter Gould? Well, that was everyone else's takeaway. The second piece was,

the palpable joy that he and pride that he feels for this show and his connection to the whole larger thing. And they are fans of it, you know, even when they are probably able to nitpick and whatever else. And he did the thing that we as podcasters do and referenced the ending of Breaking Bad and the way, especially in hindsight, it just feels so not just creative but respectful. It basically ended three times. Yeah. It ends with Osamandias, which is the biggest, noisiest, most flashy, unbelievable episode of the series. then it has Granite State, which Peter was joking, was his episode, which is quiet. Yeah, this meditative, yeah.

And really sinks in to what it would feel like to have done these things and for those things to be over. And then with Felina at the end, it was just like, let's go. Yeah. Let's go big and then go home. And, you know, I always love to cite Emily Nussbaum writing that like it gave fans and options. Some people feel like the series ended with Granite State because Felina was too neat and tight. they had it both ways. All of that is to say,

this was the Granite State, I think, of Better Call Saul. Now, there are three episodes left, not just one, so it could go in a number of directions. Well, it's this one and two more. I believe it's this one in three more. There's 13 total this season.

So there's Thomas Schnau's, they haven't even given us the titles anymore, but Thomas Schnau's longtime EP's writing directing next week. Oh, I thought it was this one, and then I thought they had, Okay, you're right. There's Schnau's writing and directing. There's Gilligan writing and directing,

and there's Gould writing and directing the finale on August 15th. So there's three more. But, you know, as we've discussed, Breaking Bad was essentially, no, not essentially, it was. One story, one timeline. This show has had many. So I loved the depth to which this episode sunk in to Gene and to Omaha and to one specific con.

Yeah. because as someone who has never doubted Peter Gould and his writers publicly on a podcast, ever. I now feel very confident that this might be it for that black and white gene is just gene. Yeah. Like there are more places to go now, not just because there are three episodes left. If I was still hanging in that untrusting place that I was, I'd be like, okay, we're going to do this again, but I don't think they are.

And so I really appreciated it for what it was. It's a beautiful episode, beautiful filmmaking. You got to accept the fact that there are lots of different kinds of better calls. Saul episodes. Some of them are deeply amusing process obsessed capers. And that's what this one was. And I can just run through what happens in this episode for people who need it. So, Gene, we're post-Alpacurkey and we're in black and white Omaha. Is that right? It's Omaha? Yeah. Yeah. And Gene tracks Jeff, who is now played by Pat Healy because Don Harvey was shooting, we own the city during the shooting of Better Call Saul. So Pat Healy is recast as Jeff the cab driver.

So that might confuse some folks initially, but he's obviously named the same thing and also is wearing the same sweater as Don Harvey did before. I would be bummed about this, except Pat Healy is an awesome actor, and We Own the City is one of the best shows of the year. So we move on up.

Yeah, Gene tracks down Jeff through his mother, Marion, played by Carol fucking Burnett, who just shows up in the third to last, or fourth to last episode of Petter Gault Saul. In exchange for Jeff Silence, Gene agrees to... So, Gene's obviously worried about Jeff ratting him out, saying I found Saul Goodman. In exchange for Jeff Silence, Gene agrees to show him the ways of the game, which is essentially the underworld. They concoct a quintessentially Saul plan to rob a department store that involves regular Cineban deliveries to mall security,

the recreation of the department store in an empty, snowy field, a fake trucking company complete with driver delivery manifest and dispatch. And finally, the robbery, which comes not without its own banana peel slips or, you know, slipping on the not-waxed floors. Jeff escapes with suits, Jordans, and more. But it turns out that Gene had an ulterior motive for this caper. He and Jeff now have what Gene calls mutually assured destruction, meaning that if Jeff reveals Gene's true identity, Gene will rat Jeff out on the robbery. Later, Gene goes back to the scene of the crime and is tempted by the garish colors of some very Saul-like apparel. but eventually puts it back on the rack with a sigh and seems to walk away from that character for good, who knows.

But that is sort of this sort of Coda episode in some ways to a life we haven't really seen except in bits and pieces in Nebraska. And who knows what comes in the next three episodes. One thing that I thought was striking was that this was, first of all, Odenkirk is great. He's playing a different character. And he really, really earned it and owns. it. This was

Jimmy McGill, Saul Goodman, Gene Tachovic as Walter White in a way that I didn't expect to see. Now, Walter gets referenced when Gene talks about a guy he knew who made a lot of money. But specifically the kind of seething, I'm

Better Than this, that was the bedrock of the Walter White character, the way that Gene is aggressively working the Carol Burnett scene in the dream. eating and drinking in the kitchen and staring, staring at...

Jeff. Wait, what's his name? Jeff. Yeah. Is very aggressive, you know. And unlike even the Saul we saw a glimpse of at the end of the last episode, there isn't any artifice, there isn't any flash. It's just that I'm better at this. I know how to do this.

And I thought that was interesting. It's a different note in the piano for Odenkirk, but it is also an interesting and probably important reshuffling of our understanding of who this guy is after the events of one of the greatest series of all time, which has been yada yadded in between last week and this week. Right. You know, if people don't remember, so what happens is essentially Gene in earlier episodes of Saul is spotted by Jeff. Well, essentially, he takes a cab with Jeff once, and Jeff seems to recognize who he is by looking at him in the Riverview Mirror too long. Gene gets out of the cab.

The cab doesn't drive away. There's like this sort of feeling that there's some sort of recognition. The Don Harvey version of this character has a kind of air of menace to it. That I think the Pat Harley-Haley version of this character lacks a little bit. I think that's right. And, you know, Don Harvey goes and sees him at the mall and is just like, say the phrase, you know, say the phrase. And there's a cop coming and it's all kind of coming on top of of Saul at that moment. and I think he does say the phrase

and then moves on. Now in the Pat Healy version of it comes, he's kind of a little bit less, I guess I'm just saying it's not the Russian from the Sopranos. You know what I mean? Like it's, it has like, it becomes like a much more grounded kind of like this guy's a loser living with his mom and he kind of wants to pretend

like he has some big shot dreams, but he doesn't. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you. And I think clearly when they knew what they were going to do with the character, they cast accordingly someone who could buy. That said, to see the previous version living under the thumb of Carol Burnett, I think it probably would have communicated as well.

Sure. We got a shout at Carol Burnett, who is of a very advanced age and is just, just owns it. Just hates extra sharp cheddar. It's so funny that scene, and she's so great in it. And of course, she's just, you know, a great, more than a great performer and comedian. She's a great actress. And there's always a little surge of pleasure when you realize that even though Oden Kirk is doing some of the best acting of his career, how significant it probably was for him and how much

fun it was to work with one of his idols and heroes in these scenes. That was really cool. I liked your point about, you know, when he sort of goes in the store and touches the suits, there were two pieces of that that I thought were interesting. One is the entire robbery seems fixated on high-end luxury goods that he can no longer afford, but specifically like the suits thing, you know, I think there's an element of wish fulfillment in that. I also was really struck by, and I wish I had Googled the name of the actress who plays the store manager. But the scene when he's... Oh, Kathy? Yeah. Kathy, when she's yelling at, not yelling, but she's on the phone call, you know, sternly saying, like, you need to handle

the situation. And Jimmy, Saul, Gene is now pretending to be the head of the shipping company. And it's kind of weirdly flirtatious. I thought they had interesting chemistry over the phone, you know, and then when he went to see, he went to the store and he saw her later, that stood out to me, you know, that his love language, this character is conning, right, and is performing and playing. And I thought it was such a subtle thing. I don't know if anyone else had this,

but it made me think of Kim, who is not in this episode. It's funny that you should mention this because I also noted that shot of Kathy walking past Gene. And he seems happy slash relieved. And I thought it was like, see, there are some crimes

that don't hurt anybody. Yeah. Because the entire end of his relationship with Kim is the collateral damage of Howard, of all these people getting hurt, of these lives being destroyed because of their slipping Jimmyisms. And he's kind of almost reaffirming to himself that there are victimless crimes if you plan it right. And that was what he wanted with Kim. He was like, if we just keep pushing forward, one day we will forget about Howard. Yes, I think that's right. And I think that there's an interesting moral calculus at play in this world that we haven't spent a ton of time in where to the, you know, every night when he closes up and he says, thank you ladies, good nights to his like young employees.

One gets the sense that he is a decent and dependable boss. Sure. You know, he seems polite. He's meticulous. He does that. So he's almost doing carmic penance for what came before. The scene with the scenes with Jim O'Hare and the other security guard, you know, where he's like learning. the entire history of Cornhuskers football. Two things, I want to steal two categories from the rewatchables. Is this Apex Mountain for Cornhuskers quarterback Taylor Martinez and also probably unanswerable question,

does Taylor Martinez watch better call us all? I know he is now currently an app developer in California. I looked up his LinkedIn. One hopes. I mean, it would be a nice little tribute to him, if so. that, you know, the degree of work that Jimmy Saul-Gene puts into learning about sports. But I thought it was interesting your point about victimless crimes because, you know, when he uses his true emotional pain to distract Jim O'Hare from turning around,

it's a great performance from Odenk, unsurprisingly. It's very typical of what makes Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul particularly so good in that it can be two things at once. It can be, you know, a craven manipulation of someone for illicit ends and also emotionally true. Yeah. But what I thought was most interesting about it was the Jim O'Hare character's reaction, which was, oh, no, no, no.

I don't, you know, he was kind of appalled in a way. He was nice, but he doesn't want this. He doesn't want the actual mess. He enjoyed the fast talking and the sweet buns. Yeah. You know, and I thought that was an interesting. that's another just puzzle piece. That's all we have really,

because we don't know what the resolution is, that we're in an exciting place. We don't know what, not just what fate awaits. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't end with any kind of real cliffhanger. You know, I mean, I don't, there's certainly a punctuation mark

at the end of his relationship with Jeff, whether or not it's an ellipsis or whether it's a period, I don't know. But it seems that he is solidly locked up. You can't tell anybody about, me and I won't tell anybody about you and we're done here. So, yeah, I mean. I guess the question is that it raises for me is, why is he still there? You know, we saw him the last time this happened. I think it was Robert Forster's last appearance in the

yeah, and he was going to run again and then it seemed like he was like, I'm tired of running. I'm going to take this on the front foot. So he did, but it also puts us, you know, in the right foot moving into the last three because, you know, Kim is from Nebraska, right? Like this is, this is established canon. So is there a reason why he doesn't. want to flee from this place. Is there a piece of it that we don't know about yet? The other thing, I mean, we do have to shout out Michelle McLaren and the black and white photography of the episode. It's beautiful. I just think it's kind of fun to be in this place with this show because there will be people, whether they are listening to us tonight feeling this way or they'll, they discover it later on Netflix,

who will say this is their favorite episode of the show? Like, that's there for them. That's there for some people. I don't think it's mine, but it's very memorable. And I wonder if it's the favorite episode, even for some people on the crew associated with it. Do you think they shot in in Albuquerque? I had some questions. That's actually a question I wanted to ask Peter.

Like, it does get very cold in Albuquerque. Yeah. It does snow, but it didn't look like Albuquerque. But again, Albuquerque is really for me defined by the sky and the light and if you shoot in black and white. Or inside of malls. Yeah.

Inside of malls, I don't know. We can wrap it up there. Honestly, we have three episodes. left as Andy has corrected me. And, you know, I think that now, I'm so tantalized by the way that Peter kind of teased it, where he was like, it's going to be divisive. I think they're, I think he used the word delightful or something like that, like it. And he was just really, obviously, it's really cool to see someone who created something

and somebody who's worked so hard on something actually be kind of excited about his own work and not just like finally we're done or, you know, I hope people like it. It's just kind of like, we have. we are doing our thing here. And I hope people like it. It's awesome. I can't wait to see the last couple. And it's cool that we never doubt it, you know,

that we've just been on board. I mean, that's the thing. Is that television shows are powered by the unquestioning belief of their fans. And that's us. That's the brand of this podcast, frankly. Whether it's Marvel or Better Call Saul. So, Andy, we'll be back on Thursday, possibly talking about Nope. Yes, I'd love to go see Nope.

Also, hey, VEP heads. finale aired tonight too. I'm sure you checked it out. I'll have an Irma Vep interview on Thursday with creator, one of my heroes, French filmmaker Olivier Asayas. Did you ask him about Carlos at all? I didn't. I didn't. I had these plans. I had so many questions about his movies, which I love. And he is very, very, very, very thoughtful and reflective and talkative. So I think I asked four questions over the course of quite a bit of time and none of them were about movies even though I wish they.

I mean, they were about movies broadly, but they weren't like, let's go through your filmography in a way that I kind of wanted to. Andy, I'll see you on Thursday. I can't wait. Have a great week for instance.