The Watch - All The News Out of Comic Con, ‘The Agency’ Season 2, and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3E6

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Chris and Andy react to the news that LeBron will be coming to the Sixers (0:40). Then they break down all of the news that came out of ComicCon over the weekend including David Jonsson being announced as the new Black Panther (10:42) and the trailers for ‘Lanterns’ (30:20), ‘Neuromancer’ (35:12), and ‘Blade Runner 2029’ (39:34). Then they talk about where ‘The Agency’ succeeded and failed in its second season (45:44) before recapping the latest episode of ‘House of the Dragon’ (01:09:24). Subscribe to the ⁠Ringer TV YouTube channel⁠ here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Engineering and Editing: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. Just a kid from Akron. It's Andy Green Wall. I thought you'd start there.

Yeah. Despite the weekend. Anything you'd like to get off your chest? We are going to talk about a bunch of the trailers coming out of Comic-Con. We're going to talk about the second season of the agency, the most recent episode of the House of the Dragon. Okay. But I thought we could talk a little bit about LeBron James joining the Philadelphia 76ers. I had a couple of questions for you.

You mean, LeBron James coming home? He's finally coming home. He's a Tribeca condominium that he'll be living in. You think he's going to do, is he officially going to do the JJ Reddick? Yeah, but you know what? That's the fucking dream, dude. That is the dream. I know.

I mean, I would personally live in Philly and go to New York to work and work and play. But however you want to handle it, like, I'd love to have two places like that. It's true. We can't fault him for that. Who among us didn't start in Philly and then live in New York? And you know who's not going to care? Philadelphians. Honestly, like, you know, that we have our sensitivities. We can get our backs up a little bit. But if LeBron James wants to play for the Sixers, he's welcome to live in New York. So let's talk about this. This was a, I received a text message from our buddy, Zach Barron, I believe LOL was included in the link that he sent.

8.30 a.m. Pacific time. Yes, I was dropping off a child at camp. Yes. And actually stopped about three blocks short of camp. Told her to walk the rest of the way. No, you didn't. Because I had work to do in the content minds. See, the thing is that I have to tell you something.

Yeah, okay. This is just us. I've received more texts from you about, like, Ben Van Sumerun than I have about LeBron coming. First of all, it's Van Sumeran. He recently signed with the Buffalo Bill. He was a deep, deep bench backup for the Eagles last season. First of all, he was going to be our starting fullback

until a ruinous injury on, I think, the first play of the season. But you've expressed way more excitement about way more random things in Philadelphia sports. And I feel like you've sent two texts about LeBron. And I'm not responded to a lot of my memes. Okay, I'd like to apologize to you about the memes. They were excellent. you also made a really, really sterling appearance on our all parents' favorite television channel, MSNBC. I'm sorry, MSNNMS now.

Yes. The X. Shout out to Hallie Jackson. That was a delightful segment. She's a real one from Yardley. She was really representing. Yeah. So you've been great, and I've been enjoying all of your content and memes.

I think that I believe in the adage of... I was also on the Zach Lowe show on the Ringer podcast network. Was he from Yardley? No. He's not. Think Global, Act Local. You know what I mean? I think that this is operating on such a higher level than what I can comment on.

I think it's so crazy. I think it's ludicrous. So this is a little bit of indie rock snobbery on your part. Absolutely. When it's your discovery, when it's a backup fullback, you're like, oh, that's cool. I found him. But when it's LeBron James, you're like, oh, I'll let the other ones go to Olivia Rodriguez. You have to understand that I have spent 25 years, four years, how many seasons has he been playing in the NBA?

Since O'O.3. Since O'3. So I've spent all of that time thinking about him as much as I think about the planet of Jupiter. Like, it exists. It's fucking enormous. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can't make your solar system without it. But it has had nothing to do with me and my life.

Yeah. So all of a sudden, he's moving to Yardley, so to speak. Yes. And it's just making me laugh. I think it's great. I think it's exciting. I am super in on this. I am not, shout out to Shil Kapady,

who's debuted a new voice about a guy who's not into this. That's not me. I'm not bad guy being like, we're not getting prime LeBron. I think this is hilarious. A lot of characters have emerged out of this. Zach Lowe introduced stat guy who doesn't know if there's enough ball

and is going through like all the warp and why it's not going to work. I just think you have to, from the psychology of a deeply committed and emotionally disturbed Philadelphia sports fan who over the last few years has really pioneered a new realm of living and dying with every game but not watching them. This is just what can one do? This is

hilarious. And I like the team and the fact that it is a basketball fit and the fact that someone is going to show up into this completely decade-long dysfunction in the locker room and be like, actually I'm an adult professional and I know how to win is thrilling. Yeah. But also protect the kids at all costs. Protect which kids? Tyrese and Vijay. Those guys are psyched. They get to play with So I'm not upset. I don't think he's going to come in and be like, I need you to trade both of those guys for Kevin Love's corpse now. He's not going to do that.

I said he's not going to do that. He's a middle-aged man. I just want everybody to know we're excited. And I think the watch, one thing we could do in this coming NBA season since there are 34, apparently, 34 nationally televised Sixers games. Did Adam Silver have this?

He had like the different charts. He was waiting. And he had the button? Yeah. I think we could make. Sixers watch part of the watch. But that would involve you doing some tape work, though.

I will say this. I am extremely excited. I think it's going to be an interesting what's Zach's character about not sure if there's enough ball? I'm not sure if there's enough me this fall, considering fall is traditionally a time of busier work, officers of travel. The Philadelphia Eagles,

Ben Van Zumaun's former team, will start playing. This is what I was going to talk to you about. And, Chris, my beloved Toddenham Hotspur is kicking things off from their return to the top of the table late August. If you pivoted from Sixers, LeBron to Tottenham. I'm just saying it's going to be a busy moment in October where if things go according to plan, we have Red October, we have Eagles back, we have LeBron on the Sixers, all happening at once.

And like the Studio S2, right? Are we going to bring... Just put that stuff aside for a second. Okay. Focus. All right. If we were ever going to do a Philly live show, it should be then. Okay.

You put me on, yeah, sure. Okay. Let's, can we talk mostly about sports? Yes, of course. No, everybody's going to want to listen to Studio S2 takes. Live. Andy, this is, we can leave sports there. Let's leave the games behind.

All right. And talk about the art and business of entertainment. You can always hit us up at the watch at Spotify.com. We're going to do a mailbag episode next week, recording it tomorrow, so if you have any last minute questions. But so far, thank you so much for your questions. Have they been good? They have been.

There have been several people who've written in to say, Dear sir, to you, thank you for giving me space to also feel like the Odyssey wasn't all as good as everybody's making it sound. Did I say that? You had some, you were a little bit more measured, and you were like, that was pretty goofy in places. It fucking was.

I stand by that. There's five guys in the more. who are like, thanks, brother. That really made me feel seen. I'm not for everyone, but I'm for someone. If you hear this on Monday and you send in your email tonight, we may get it for tomorrow's mailbag, so the deadline is coming. The WatchPod underscore at Instagram, Ringer Dash TV on YouTube,

where we are rocking and rolling with the Prestige TV podcast. And today, like I said, some news at the top, there's a bunch of Comic-Con stuff. We did not go. Did you regret not going? No. You set that real fast Here's the thing

I like San Diego San Diego is one of my favorite music towns Some of my favorite bands have come from San Diego Drive like Jayhu, right Drive like Jayhu Hot Snakes Some bands without John Reese in them Antioch Arrow, etc But

I don't want to go to Comic Con I don't think it is It doesn't really have That's a real like But it just goes on YouTube Pretty much like the next day So like why would I Why would I go to San Diego to do it?

We went together once. I went in 2004. I think I went as your like bag man. I was like you were going to interview the Banshee cast or something. Yeah, I was just like, I'll just sleep on your floor or whatever. No, no, no, no, no. This is a famous story that we don't need to revisit. We had two beds.

That's cool. And, but that was the first time I thought. Did you take both of them? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't, I'm sorry, that wasn't contradicting that you were on the floor. I just wanted you to remember. No, that was when I looked, that was the first time I observed in person. in your podcast sleeping regimen.

No, that's not true. You saw it when we went and interviewed Maguay in Chinatown in New York City. Yes, that was the other time we shared a hotel room. But I don't think, we didn't, podcast didn't exist then. Oh, and I put pods in. Yeah, and then I put my arms like I'm not. You're like, not as far as you. You just lay back slowly on your bed.

Yeah. It was unbelievable. But, yeah, oh yeah, one day we'll talk about that. Maguire has their big anniversary concert, right? I'm not going. Well, because we, that's another foundational story. We tell that one less than we tell the train spotting one. Yeah, somehow Magwa is not as grabby.

It's still Scottish, though. Okay, we'll circle back to that. So, Comic-Con, we went once, we have not been back. Yeah, that was a long time ago. So what do you have here? You have our obviously Marvel kind of singing for their supper. Like there was a moment here where I think after that Doomsday trailer, Marvel fans, I think, will ride or die with this crew no matter what.

there is a contingent of people who are always going to be present for this. The projections for brand new day are already like astronomical. Oh yeah. I think above Odyssey, like it's going to make a boatload of money. But in terms of like where things are going,

there was a little bit of skepticism. It's fair to say after that doomsday trailer. So I think they had a lot. They had to get accomplished at their presentation. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. There are a couple of TV things I wanted to talk about. But we can stick on Marvel. You want to start with Marvel?

Yeah, because there's a few things here that I thought were cool. For the number one, obviously, I think the big headline was that David Johnson, who industry watchers, and I mean capital I industry watchers will recognize as Gus from the early seasons of industry, is going to play the fucking Black Panther. Yes. He is going to be the kid from the end of BP2 grown up. Now, eagle-eyed viewers and watchers and listeners or whatever have pointed out that that does seem a bit difficult to do in terms of like how much does he age? Like, what timeline are these movies taking part in? And there's speculation that this will be a post-whatever Doomsday is. Well, I believe they've already announced the release date for this Black Panther 3 is 28, which would be not only post-Doomsday, it would be post-Secrette.

Okay. So it would be in Kevin Feige's beloved sacred timeline restoration where there would be only one. Yeah, but Shuri is still in it. The BP3? Yeah. Sure.

Because she's in the doomsday trailer as Black Panther, right? Yes. Right. If this was the hill that you died on where you were just like, there can only be one legitimate Black Panther? What did you think of the casting?

Well, I think the casting is exciting. I think the larger conversation is definitely one of what are we doing here in terms of Marvel. Black Panther is a little bit carved out of that conversation because if Ryan Cougler wants to make Black Panther 3, then they should make that movie. He is on the extremely short list of writer-directors, filmmakers who move every needle, artistic, commercial, certainly box office. And if this is what he wants to do with all of the goodwill and industry credit and basically market-moving power that he has accrued since Sinners, which was an incredible. incredible, you know, bet on himself famously. Good. I'm interested. You know, I, he would not come

back to do a movie he didn't want to do, even if the fanboys in that room are screaming that trilogies need to be completed or whatever. Yeah. And I think what we know from the sadly scrapped original script of Black Panther 2 when Chadwick Bozeman was still with us and was going to be starring in the movie, that was going to be a father-son movie. So this is clearly the story or the, the kernel of the story that Coogler wants to tell. And so this will give him a chance to do it. And I guess I read also

some reporting that this casting was done months ago that they've been quietly building towards this and planning it. And this probably aligns with the timeline where Denzel Washington, either he said it or someone said it that he's going to be in this movie. Denzel is in this movie. And now it's been, that's also been confirmed. So

unlike some of the other things that they've announced, which we're going to pivot to, if a filmmaker has a story he wants to tell, that's exciting. I wish that the same artistic vision applied to other movies.

Yeah, this is what I want to say. So just on Johnson really quick, not only is he great in industry, he was, he has been a guy over the last two years specifically who is an old school, like when you were watching it, like, if I'm watching a movie with another person or in a theater or

with my wife or something like that, routinely gets at. Like, they'll be like, who, who is that? Mm-hmm. That guy was awesome. He was in Romulus. And he was incredible in Romulus. Yeah.

And he's awesome in the long walk with Cooper Hoffman. So he has obviously got something. And I think it's interesting, the qualities that I think he shares with Bozeman as a performer, like a kind of centeredness. But then there's some differences. You know, he has like a little bit of like, I don't know, like maybe it perhaps like, a knowability. I don't know how to describe it because Gus was such a distinct character in industry

and then since then, like he's played a synthetic person in Romulus. His long walk character is awesome. But in any case, I think it's great casting. I think what's interesting about him is that he's one of the rare cohort of performers who can signal to a camera

that what he's doing and what he's thinking are different, but both are incredibly, incredibly alive and active. That's a really good way putting it. And I think that he, that adds something, I mean, he's going to be in a mask for a lot of the movie, but that adds something different to the character and maybe fits into what I could imagine be a theme about, not teenagers, 32, but like rebellion or rebelling against a legend or resisting a mantle of some kind. I think that's an interesting story to tell. And, you know, they have a situation where, like, immediately they, they, when they, they, they announce this, they tell the story of casting Johnson and it's going to be shot on film. I'm sure. in 65 or 70 or some great format. And, you know, Denzel is in it. And you immediately start thinking, like,

can they not move like this for all the other, all the movies? You know what I mean? Like, and this was sort of, I know the original promise of a certain era of Marvel where it was going to be, and Star Wars to some extent, where it's going to be like,

we're going to get great filmmakers and tell great stories, and we're going to merge this amazing intellectual property with their artistic vision. and it just seems like that whole experiment is basically a failure, whether it's people leaving projects like Lord and Miller on Solo or, you know, Edward Wright on Ant Man and or arriving at this kind of flattened, pre-vis, we just need people to get this from A to B.

We can't really take too many chances or ever do anything pretty provocative. You know, Thunderbolts being like an exception of the rule, maybe. So I just, I guess weirdly it was bittersweet just because I was like, I can't you guys make like badass like Avengers movies this way? I guess maybe that's like a lot of moving pieces. A lot of moving pieces. I think it's a couple things. One, I do want to just have a moment to do like a naval burial at sea for a take I was proud of, which was that all of Dumes A and Secret Wars was just part of a long game to reboot the Marvel universe where Michael B. Jordan is Black Panther. That's interesting. I don't think he wants to do it.

that. You might show up in secret wars, who knows. So I just want to like salute that, you know, drape that cough in the flag, throw it off the road. I think it's great that Michael B. Jordan does not need to show up in secret wars. Like, he doesn't need that in his career. I completely agree with you. Don't get me started on the Adam Driver as Mr. Sinister rumors that are bubbling up right now as well. So I think it's always worth contextualizing what you're saying that all, There is a legitimate, there's a legitimacy to that strain of thinking, to those rumors that, like, I know, some of it's confirmed, but I'm not breaking news here. But like, Kathy Kennedy in her tenure ahead of Lucasfilm, literally did meet with everyone. You know, there was the Vince Gilligan meeting.

There was many David Fincher meetings. There was Soderberg meetings. Kevin Feige, I'm sure, has had similar meetings with the best of the best. And what they discover is that there can only really be one no-adam driver of the, of the, cars. They are too expensive. They are too difficult to maneuver. And if a filmmaker like David Fincher comes in and it's like, cool, I am, you know, I want to do the Submariner movie, but I get final cut and I do whatever I want. That's just not going to work for your timeline. That's why you end up hiring, in best case scenarios, like really, really solid workers who can deliver, like what the

Russo brothers were when they took them from TV or where we're about to get with Sean Levy. It's just not consistent with what these things end up having to be for shareholders and for delivery dates and global vis effects sweatshops or whatever the case may be. Black Panther is the one outlier here because they need him much more than he needs them. And I think by all accounts, they have a very good working relationship. But if that relationship was ever threatened and Fagie and Louis Esposito were like, actually we need to, you know, introduce the new warriors in this movie also. I think Googler could be like, well, good luck making it without me. Sure. You know.

And good luck having anybody believe in this if I am somehow not part of it. Exactly. So it is a power thing. Now, turning the page to the other announcement from it, I, again, I want to say this in a non-snobby or judgmental way. Listen and we don't judge. Sean Levy is a professional people pleaser. Okay. I mean, I have separate apart from what I think about the man or the artist.

I've never met him. But he clearly strikes me as someone who can walk into any room and convince people that he can solve your problems and deliver for you. And he's done that now with Star Wars because he's making, he's now wrapped a Star Wars movie and he's about to do this for Marvel, having done Deadpool and Wolverine, which I think is

one of the most odious pieces of pop culture ever released in the last 20 years, but it made a billion dollars. So congratulations to everybody involved. Did we talk about that? I fucking went to L.A. live at 8 a.m. and saw it and dragged my ass over here to talk about it. You can go to movies whenever you.

want. You know that, right? Not with a particular parenting schedule. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm just saying. Theoretically, one could. I don't remember that episode at all. Was I there? You may have been doing the 2020 NBA redraft episode where I was like, it was fine, you know? Like, I laughed. For seven just playing fantastic four. No, I think I was actually pretty mean about it now that I think about it about. Do you think that that's why you don't remember it? Because there's a part of you that blacks out, like bad mommy. Other mommy? Oh, sorry, flatulent mommy.

What do we call it? Other mommy. Other mommy. When you're being mean. I think I'm a little bit more disappointed in the Gosling aspect. No, that's what I was back during that. That's what I want to talk about. So,

there's like, there's, you can have so many different parts of your career. And if, if this is what Ryan Gosling wants to do, it's not like he hasn't given a large chunk of his soul to the craft, art and craft of acting and made really complicated movies and really demand done really demanding roles.

And if he wants to just kind of like spend what I imagine is his early 40s, like how old is he? He's like a couple years younger than us. Yeah, like mid 40s chilling somewhere probably with the beach next to him and then making movies that his kids will like. I don't really love that excuse though. No. I mean like I just kind of don't want to be challenged anymore and make movies that my kids. kids will like, guess what, man, your kids are going to like good movies soon.

You can make some of them and they can watch them when they're 18. I'm not saying you have to make Blue Valentine every six months. But like this whole, like, I want to make movies my kids can watch. Like, your kids want to watch cool shit. Yes. And there will be a day. I can attest to this when your kids will become teenagers. They'll be like, what have you done with your life, Dad?

They'll be like, you made drive. Then they'll be like, and then you made the fucking fall guy. Right. Grow up, Dad. Like, yeah, it, I think it sucks. I think it sucks on many levels. Here's one level. Ghost Rider is stupid.

Ghost Rider is a stupid character. Okay. I have no relationship. I have read comic books for much of my life. I have enjoyed Ghost Rider's appearance in comic books from time to time. Ghost Rider is dumb as fuck. Ghost Rider is a guy named Johnny Blaze, who gets inhabited by the spirit of vengeance.

and transforms into a dude with a flaming skull head who rides a motorcycle and whips people with flaming chains. And Nicholas Cage has been that role in movies. And Eva Mendez was in that movie and was married to Ryan Gosling. Does Ghost Rider play a part in any larger Marvel kind of story? I mean, every so often when an interesting writer takes over one of the big franchise titles, one of the things that they do,

and this is, I bet you could name like a national side manager who does this with World Cup teams just for LOLs. But it'll be like, now whoever is taking over the Avengers, and it's Iron Man, Captain America, Captain Marvel, Ant Man, fucking Ghost Rider. And everyone's like, what's Ghost Rider doing here? And then that kind of wears off. Okay.

So, sure. But the fact that Kevin Feige is up on stage being like, we've struggled for years on how to bring John Blaze into the Marvel universe. I'm like, some people are working here, sir. Some people have real jobs. My job is going to see Deadpool. My job is seeing your swill, sir. At 8 in the morning, and I am a parent of daughters who, what did you say?

One day will want to see good shit. Who want to watch Only God Forgive me. As someone whose job it is to talk about movies and television shows with his best friend twice a week, I stand up for the working man. Anyway, so that's dumb. Gosling being like, this is what I want to do, is also really disappointing and dumb. But the dumbest thing to me is a room full of like hundreds and hundreds of nominal adults screaming and cheering for someone getting hired. Your dad just came out.

No, but for real, though. There's no movie here. They're not, they're like, and now we're here to announce that Ryan Gosling has been promoted to VP of International Marketing and research. And everyone's like, fucking hooray! You got a job. He didn't need the job.

There's no movie. It's an idea of a thing of someone doing something later. They have the font for the poster and everything. Look how you're quietly zagging. I'm not zagging at all. You're Homer Simpson into the bush

right now. You know what it is? It's a fucking Sean Levy movie where he's going to be a spirit of vengeance but it'll probably have a soft spot for a kid. Oh God. Come on, dude. If there's a kid in Ghost Rider.

There's going to be a kid in Ghost Rider. Do you think he's going to be a little... Is he a junior ghost with his head is on fire too? A little ghost? You know, it would be cool. This is kind of a tangent. I don't know if you ever see these, but there's a great thing on Instagram that pops up all the time.

First of all, everything on Instagram, great. Love it. But it's just like a dude in England who rides a bike, a mountain bike with his little kid in the front. And the videos are just the kid going, Daddy, bus. And he's like, yes, that's a bus. He was, Daddy, flowers. He's like, good, that's flowers.

What if that was Ghost Rider? Is the kid like harnessed? The kid has a little seat on the, and he has his own handlebars. Oh, okay. So he's riding on the bike, and then the guy has, like, a camera. And that's the video.

I could watch that forever. I like that's up at, like, before dawn and, like, rides through Trafalgar Square and kind of... John O'Ferity? He's my hero. Yeah. Okay. I'm fucking, I watch that shit live.

That guy's the best. Because he's waking up in London. Yeah. It's 10, 9, 10 p.m. here. Can we just, can we sidebar for a second here? Okay. Here's why I think we're doomed. Just, and it's not a...

about Wolverine and Deadpool or whatever. It's about the fact that you know and everyone who listens to this podcast know that most of my time not, you know, working real hard is like looking at like London restaurants and pub content on my phone. Like Instagram, like I follow restaurants, I follow it, whatever. And the way that it gets you is that it constantly, constantly pushes you towards extremity in the worst possible ways. So like I like to watch James Dimitri go into pubs and order a snake bite, which is beer and cider. And then it's like, with a little black current on top. Or a lot of black current.

Then I go to like suggested for you. And it's a guy walking into a Costco in Florida being like, I've got $10, how quickly can I get blackout drunk by chugging this pop off bottle? And I like, no, no, I do. I understand, Claude, that these both involve men drinking, but there's a difference here. Uh-huh. Or like, I follow a British restaurant, you know, and I'm like, oh, looks like they've got a an interesting Tandori special.

One day I'd like to visit that. And then the next suggested for you is this American woman being like, the British people are pussies about spice. I'm going to take their six chicken wing challenge. And then she just starts barfing in the restaurant. I don't want to know that. I don't want to see that. Well,

I blame Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's probably been greater infractions and crimes. Nope. By large tech companies than you. you being forced to watch somebody puke. I'm just saying how this is the way things go. This is the way we try.

This is the trend. This is how we go towards ruin. And maybe Sean Levy directing Ghost Rider is the first, the next. I will just, to put a bow on the Ryan Gosling thing. I don't want him to be sad. I don't want him to be upset. And I want him to make money. Like, I think those are all great things.

Yeah, me too. He's the best. That's why he should have just kept making nice guys. Because it would have been right in the middle. Yes. You know, rather than all this all the way over where every couple of movies you're going to get a Project Tail Mary, but then you're also going to get a fog guy. Well, a fog guy was okay, but like the gray man, pretty bad. So yeah.

What about the whole, they didn't do, I think we thought, many people thought, many people are saying. That they would announce the X-Men. Yeah, I guess they didn't for reasons, including they're still holding on to the- Well, they're pretending like the Fox X-Men are going to live from where. than 15 minutes in that movie. No. No, no spoilers, but that's how... No spoilers, but they're like Anthony Mackey, Paul Rudd, and Kelsey Grammer are all going to be in this movie for the same amount of time.

Like, that is... Yeah. Everyone's like screaming. I'm so excited. There was apparently a doomsday trailer where I guess there's more to it. And it's like Vanessa Kirby narrating like Doom. Dr. Doom was like... Doctor, he showed me his credentials. He's actually a PhD, not a medical

doctor. He actually... What do you think is doctorate's in? Whatever it took to get... What was the... Socovia? Like, what was it? Was he like an infrastructure doctor? Oh, my God. He's like... He was from Latviria, right? Yeah, and he's like... And probably

Secovia radicalized him. Because if it could happen to one made-up country in Europe... I think they give away why he's radicalized that took his family, right? Who? Like some tragedy. It's so funny, like, the level of water carrying where they're like, no, no, no, doom is different as a villain because they took everything from them.

But that's the same as what happened to Thanos, right? It's the same as everyone. It just, you take everything from me? I've become a supervillain. Kind of on the superhero tip lightly. Did you have any other thoughts about this new footage or about this new, as it changed? Do you think that they did anything? I didn't see the new footage come out?

I didn't see it. They were just describing it. read a description of it. Look how fucking far we've fallen. I don't think that that Comic-Con footage has come out yet as of press time. Did you see,

the only thing that I know, and I intentionally, I don't want spoilers, even if the movie ends up being trash. Of what? Of Doomsday. But you've read it already. I don't think they're doing one-to-one.

There wasn't a story called Doomsday. We think that they... Oh, but you ever read like the weeks or anything like that? No. And look your face. I have. Doing the Wind Horse.

But all I'm seeing is headlines being like, oh my god LM-F-A-O all the leaks are right so people are like not thrilled about that oh I think it's a decent enough story

you think it's a decent enough story what's your PhD in Dr. Ryan? Public relations no fucking that's fucking right just to put a cap on the superhero side of things there was another lanterns trailer

there was a whole lanterns event looked really cool you can't yada yada of that I'm not yada yada ending anything. It's a great trailer. The trailer is so good. And we were talking just a minute ago about bringing your artistic sensibility to a corporate one, or not even a corporate one, but one with like an established IP.

And I would say on the DC side of things right now, for as much as Gunn and Safran are kind of running DCC, CU, I thought this very much felt like an extension of Watchmen. and leftovers and some previous Lundelof stuff and I thought that was really cool now maybe part of that is because it looks like they shot in Oklahoma I believe They shot on locations yeah

But I don't really know anything about Green Lantern So this is all all the like ring and Who gets to be what stuff is new to me But that's what I'm curious about because they had a teaser That was very grounded as they say Yes and then this was much more... And from what I understand like the hardcore fans were like, what if they'd done to my beautiful green baby?

Yeah. And then in this one, they were like, holy shit, that's sinestro in the flesh. And yet, that's an incredibly fine line to walk, which is why I'm really praising the trailer, because I thought it was an incredible trailer. It looks like a very, very rare marriage between both sensibilities. But you were coming in cold, were you put off in any way by the ring stuff or the space?

No, I think I got it. I think I understand what's at stake and what the ring does. And I don't necessarily understand all of, like, which every lantern guy is. But I thought it looked really good. And also the archetypes that these people are playing, like Kyle Chandler playing the, like, a little bit past it, hanging onto the ring a little hard. Aaron Pierre waiting in the wings. Aaron Rogers, Brett Favre action going. Kelly McDonald's.

And a lot of, you know, you were saying a decade ago, I did the Banshee panel. A lot of Banshee representation here. Ulrich Thompson, who's the villain on. Banshee is playing Sinestro. Yes. He seems great in the trailer. Sinestro is the bad guy. Is he also a lantern?

He was a lantern and he was corrupted by... Did they take everything from here? No, yellow is the bad color. Oh. So now he's bad. Okay. And Chris Coy, who is also in The Deuce. Yeah.

Garrett Dillahunt, Pornow, Jack Nathan, and Laurelini. So... Come on. This looks really good, man. That comes August, I believe, 19th, something like that. So it's mid-August. would say the I would say this is fascinating to us both because we like the people involved and we like and we hope for more interesting or thoughtful or creative expressions of the material that everybody is working with. I think it's going to be interesting to look at the ways to two different levels of collaborations worked with the show when it comes out. One is we're talking about our friend Damon Lindeloff who is one of the co-creators and worked on season one of the show. Yep.

Also working on season one of the show is Tom King, who is an incredibly accomplished and really innovative and I think often brilliant comic book writer who's written arcs on like Shades Changing Man and Vision and Batman that have been really groundbreaking. And this is him working in a different medium. And but the one holding them together is Chris Mundy who made Ozark. Yep. That's top heavy as far as TV shows go, but from all accounts it was a really successful collaboration.

So I'm interested to see whose DNA or what recombinant. form of like storytelling emerges from that. And then two, I know you were watching, because I know you're a big DCU guy that you saw that Nathan Philean's Guy Gardner is in this trailer. I thought that was a long known. It wasn't a surprise. Okay. But that character is being like James Gunn's favorite version of a Green Lantern that he already

introduced in Superman, who's just kind of like a very meta, self-aware, joking dickhead. Being in this show, which is like, no, we're doing true detective and we're not worried about the larger ram-fifference. Could that just be like a one episode like one-off? Do you think he's like going to be showing up at the end of very traumatic scenes and being like, wow, I can't believe this is happening? Well, the question is like what wins when you combine two strong flavor profiles and like can they shade it differently and present a different version of him kind of the way that Marvel is going to try to do with Bernthal's Punisher, who we last saw in his one-off special basically reenacting only the gnarly parts of infernal affairs, right? And then now is going to be like, gee, Spidey, time to tackle the Hulk. We'll see.

Two more TV shows that I wanted to talk about that caught trailers from Comic Con. And they are united in a kind of vision of the future. So I think they work well. They're a retrofuturist TV shows. One is Apple TV's Neuromancer adaptation, which is William Gibson's seminal cyberpunk novel. That has been long kind of like, Many, many filmmakers have tried to unlock this from Ridley Scott to Chris Cunningham who directed those AFX twin videos to, like, Chuck Russell, who recently passed away. And like, I think Mel Gibson was going to be attached to the Ridley Scott version at some point.

But people have wanted to make this book for almost as long as it's existed, and it is hugely influential on The Matrix, on tons of stuff. you know, one of the funny things with making something like Neuromancer is that probably every five to seven years it goes in and out of style, both in terms of the visual language of like what's being made now but also what's happening in the culture in terms of packing and all this other stuff.

And I thought this trailer looked awesome. So this comes from, I believe, his name, yeah, it's Graham Rowland who does Dark Winds and J.D. Dillard. and I think J.D. Diller directed it all 10 episodes. It's not coming out until next year, but it just looked really cool. Like, I mean, I suppose there are parts of it that kind of look fifth element-y, although for some people I don't know that that's going to be a turnoff.

And Calvin Turner seemed like a really stable central force in this, but more than anything, I just thought the trailer is essentially cut like Fincher's Girl with a Dragon tattoo teaser, and it just had a really great vibe. I mean, I thought it looked great. I think it's impressive, too, to do it from like basically a, from standing still. Like, I did not have anticipation. I did not have expectations. Do you ever read any Gibson? No, I wondered if you were you anywhere with that?

I mean, I read neuromancer in high school or something like that or college. But yeah, I got it didn't understand a fucking thing. No, yeah. I think the risk with material like this that has been so beloved and so influential for so long is that you come back to it and it's been strip mind for parts culturally. I think that's kind of what happened when Peacock finally got around to making an adaptation of Huxley's Brave New World. Oh, yeah. I forgot.

I did that. That has been, that mine is, we're going to be talking about Diamond Mine soon with the agency season two, but that had been strips. Yep. Viking had been there. Viking had been there already. We were too late. Which doesn't mean the attempt was like was a bad idea. It's just when you get there and you realize that people get these references already and convincing them that this is where they came from is tricky.

So seeing the Neuromancer trailer, there are going to be people who are like, oh, they're just doing the Matrix, but the Matrix was doing this. Yes, I thought that was wise on the part of the trailer to have some text that like pushed forward the idea of like, this is the thing that invented all this stuff.

Yes. And I just think it looked, I thought it looked really good. You know, one of the things that was neat about it was, even though there are some images that will look very reminiscent of, say, Blade Runner, there's also stuff that like the woman with the crazy sharp nails

and the glass eyes. Like there were some really striking visuals in this that I thought were like very cool. I think that one of the things, the tipping point for adaptations like this is how you approach the material with hindsight and history, meaning if you make it

and try to imbue it with the same kind of cautionary, William Gibson did not write it as a cautionary tale. He was like always been kind of visionary and future-minded. But you can't approach this text as like, ah, this was a warning sign from the town crier because we're in a totally different version of actual reality now. But if you approach it as like the bones here for something very cool and compelling a story are worth doing, then you do it.

And it just, the bones are good. Like the cast is deep and kind of impressive. We've got Mark Strong, Peter Sarsgaard, your guy Dane DeHaan, Clements Poisey, Andre DeShields from Hades Town. There you go. Big box office hit this weekend, Hades Town. Do you want to talk about that? But I thought it looked cool.

Also, have you ever heard of this guy, Aubrey Drake Graham? He's an up-and-comer. He's a producer on it. Did he get a piece of this? Wow. Another trailer that came out, another seminal piece of retrofuturism, and, you know, a story that we just can't quit is Blade Runner. So we've got Ridley Scott's, several versions.

of the first film. We've got Dini Villeneuve's Blade Runner 2049 and then a long gestating, I feel like this has been announced this was announced a long time ago. Blade Runner 2099, which is a new Amazon series that I believe comes out in the fall starring Hunter Schaefer and Michelle Yo. And I would say I'm pretty into these two performers and I really like just saying the word replicants much like Cousin, Cousin Richie on on the bear,

but the idea that this takes place 50 years after the Villanou film. And I would say they haven't iterated much on the architecture or look or feel or design of this movie or this story considering the fact that it would be close to 70 years of time taking place.

So I'm curious about it. I'm definitely going to check it out, but it almost felt like they repopulated the sets and skin of Blade Runner 2049 to some extent. When we talk about the agency, and we're going to talk about it momentarily, we've talked a lot about how it is kind of like an orphan of a different time that somehow survived. It's like little CalL, that's a DCU reference, sent away from the dying planet because it was built, it was put together to be a Showtime Flagship Show and is now somehow

existing in this like post-sky dance merger Paramount Plus timeline right um i kind of feel the same way about this blade runner show which exists mainly because there was such an it you know this is now eight or nine years ago but like the same the same like we must we must control these rare earth minerals slash IP of like we must just continue to iterate things that people know and turn them into tv shows that brought us lord of the rings it brought us much of the the MCUs failed Disney plus slate, like the desire to get something into production was really strong. Separate apart from whether there was something worth telling

or the audience's appetite was there for it. And then there are these other things that just, I feel for the people who made the show because it was, you know, it was pre-strike. They were going to film in Ireland, in Belfast, and they had like the sets built and they were spending their tax credit. And then the strike happened and they'd spent their money. Then they moved the entire thing to Prague.

Like this is very modern television And then all of this To debut the trailer And just confirm that it's a limited series Right Which was They can tell you that that's what they intended For it to be but nobody intends

For that thing It's also an interesting story to me About Who controls this Particular piece of IP Because for There are two things Ridley Scott who's getting up there in years

But trying to outrun the devil But has his hand and still on Blade Runner and Alien. Yes. And I think has sometimes a kind of, not contentious, complicated relationship with letting these things go to other people. Yes.

Now, I don't know how much of it is rumor and how much of it is real that, like, he had a very, like, looking over your shoulder relationship to Fetti Alvarez on Alien Romulus. And that is partially why Alvarez is not coming back for a new film. And I believe they went through another direction, director who is also like, I'm not going to do this if like, if he really wants to do it.

But I think what he really wants to do is finish the FastBender story with the prequels. So, you know, it's just one of those things where it's like he, for better or for worse, has some sense of ownership over these things and perhaps actual technical contractual ownership over these stories. So you're not going to really get any of the stuff done unless you say from executive producer Ridley Scott before the title. Do you he was turning 89 this year? I do know that.

That's wild. Yes. Yeah. Is he going to run for president? No, but like when you when you have older parents, I think you're just like, this is what I'm saying. How the fuck, like my mom couldn't operate Apple TV. Like how the fuck can Ridley Scott direct Gladiator to?

I might have something to do with what, you know, we've, anecdotally, we've heard that like he does have like someone providing him with caffeinated drinks for half the day. and maybe a little alcoholic drink in the afternoon. Like, he is on a very, like, regimented schedule of what he likes. Me too. Honestly, I know, but I think the difference is someone is just there to provide it for you. Sure. Yeah. Must be nice.

It must be. I think it must be. I don't know. I don't know. I think... You a big Blade Runner guy at all? I love the first movie. I was pretty into the sequel.

Yeah. A good gosling. A good gosling. but again, like, the franchise, I mean, it's in, in the moment, I was like, this is a perfect vehicle for him. And then now in retrospect,

I'm like, his engagement with the franchise model, I feel like I wish he was doing other things with it. But this is the world that, the gosling. No, no, no, no. At the time, it's like,

if you look at it as a Villeneuve movie, you know, like, that, there are the two paths that it seems for contemporary actors and they are to, do the DiCaprio and just try to only work with the best directors and and and avoid superhero capes and tights or there's the like look man i just got i got to establish a beachhead here in sycovia and then i can do work on the side that was always like sam jackson said bruce willis told him

get a character that you can go back to every three to five years so that like you never have to worry about ups and downs in the box office i think that pedro pascal is doing that but what people don't realize is that character is um uh cinema cellist Alex whatever. Alex behemoth. In Bihaleks that at the end of the movie

he opens the cello case and his costume is in there. Doom is in there. And he flies off. I want to talk to you about the agency season two. Now we usually don't do wrap-ups like this

where there's no sort of defined which episodes are we talking about. So for anybody who hasn't watched the agency season two you'll find this conversation useless but we wanted to knock something out that we felt passionate about

on a Monday because I think that Dragon was a bit divisive this week for us. Not between us. Not between us. I mean, like, I think between what they offered up and what we liked about it. So I have a couple of kind of like

superlatives questions about the season itself for you. Yeah. I wanted to ask what you kind of took away from this season as a whole. I will say up front that I thought it was excellent. Yeah. It didn't feel excellent. What do you mean?

I really did have, I had trouble with the remake element of it, I think. I don't think, I don't think that this is, I wish they had taken more chances. And I wish they had done some different things with the characters and I wish maybe it didn't feel as like, I was trying to,

I couldn't even think of a metaphor or like an illusion. Like what is, what is the experience of watching something so specific, being so brilliantly and thoughtfully remade, but so Catholicly, that you're like, okay, and then I remember like Henry does this, and then this happens,

and then this happens. And I think when you're watching a suspense thriller, to have all of suspense taken out of it, and this show has made much more like a suspense thriller, rather than the French kind of like, what makes a man espay? And who is he?

And what is he? Keep going. No, you know what I mean? Like, this is much more like we have to go get biking. We're going to track. Well, I do think that, and we talked about this with season one, too, that one of the slight tweaks that I think is the smart one, is that when you take a show that is, we're talking about La Bureau, which everyone should watch, it's one of the, I don't know,

probably one of my top 10 television series ever, definitely the best spy series ever, which is about the French intelligence service. And they are not the, they are not the biggest elephant in the, room. And so when you make the same show about the power that everyone else reacts to about the CIA, you have to tweak some things. And I do think that the tweaking towards being more of a cut and dry power show and an action show makes sense. Yes. But that is a very subtle tweak that is not necessarily, you know, as granular as I think you would like. And I agree with you. My experience with it... I didn't, I don't think they leaned enough into that. Well, yeah, I think

I think a number of things. I think it is frustrating that a show built on the best bones you possibly could acquire through IP purchasing

or transferring and then was kidded out with just a god tier cast I mean Richard Gear and Jeffrey Wright on the show

are on a different level than most performers. on television and I could watch them forever and I wish that I could. Richard Gere just doing work a day like, what do you want? You're in my office stuff. Like, but now get out of my office is, it's ridiculous how good he is. But also I'm here for the Girassons. I just saw that, do you know that he's starring in the adaptation of the Lisa Halliday

novel, Asymmetry? I didn't. Which is about a young woman's romance with Philip Roth when he was 40 years older. Yeah, I saw pictures of him filming that. Who's the woman in the film? Diana Silvers, who is, she was on, um, She was in Book Smart. Okay.

She is accurately 40 years younger than him. Comments were so cool about this movie. I got to say, they were really looking for the nuance in the literary adaptation. Anyway, I'm just saying late period gear where he just, he's still like a completely unique, beautiful and charismatic individual, but he looks so fucking over it is incredible. It's just like he got a little extra, he got an extra color in his palette to play with. and I think it's amazing. But it is kind of frustrating

that a show with so much pre-built going into it, to my mind, having now watched both seasons, really took a while to find its own footing. My experience with it was very impressed with season one,

very impressed with the cast, very impressed with the accurate adaptation, very excited that people would be discovering an incredible story, but it didn't rise beyond the level of its adaptation. When season two started

and it was dumped on ceremony, and we started getting feedback from people who binged it, that it was incredible, it's taken a leap. After three episodes, I didn't fully agree because what I felt was that same sense of, like, the best karaoke performance I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. Sometime around four or five. I think when Owen goes to Africa.

It elevated for me. And suddenly, I noticed that it was doing things, not just in like differentiating in terms of adaptation, but finding new parcels and packets of ideas and themes and emotion. in the softer character moments between scenes. You could feel it at the beginning of season two when Owen is hooking up with Rain, who's an assistant in the office, and then the party where you get a little sense of...

And by the way, the Owen character in the French version as kind of like the office guy who is just inexplicably an absolute swordsman. Even after his grievous injury, that's canon. That's canonical. But there was just more room to grow there. and like the Blair character who's there throughout the season one

and then I should be saying... I think she's amazing. She's great. And I love the way, the cadence that she's chosen to speak in this character that both, I think, probably helps with her accent

because like almost everyone else on the show, she is English playing an American. But adds a different, very subtle note that suddenly you realize you've been listening to the whole time. So the fact that it...

I sit here week to week with you and I celebrate and champion shows that find their footing, that kind of lean into what's working for them, and suddenly it's like a firework show of an ensemble. It's very odd that it showed this expensive and this, like, heavily mapped and, you know, and non...

It's not exactly... There's nothing improvised, really, about it. Yeah. But it found a spark 15 episodes into his run. Its run is both maddening and also thrilling. Because I thought the run from 205 to 210 was some of the best TV I've seen this year. I thought 208,

was just goaded as an episode on its own terms with its small tweaks and it kills me because I mean we should talk about the content before we do what I'm about to do but like I think this is all we're going to get and I think that sucks.

I wonder if that was maybe in the back of my mind as I finished this season but yeah like this is a strange critique because what I'm saying is they did an excellent job remaking one of my favorite TV shows ever. And it's not the same feeling

as when you're watching a Star Wars sequel and you're like this is essentially New Hope. Okay. Yeah. Oh, right. You know what I mean? Like the shadow. The gestures and the large movements of this story are basically a new hope. This is literally the Bureau. Yeah.

And I think because of the genre and because of the literal story that it's telling at a certain point even if it's what I'm watching is thrilling, the experience of watching it becomes a little less than average because I'm like, yes,

and I know exactly what's going to happen. I think for me, this is very interesting to me because that was definitely my reaction through season one. Season two, even as I remembered, and we should probably also say, I have not revisited that series.

I would love to rewatch it. But my sense memory of like the lyrics coming back, to me is not instantaneous. I did not remember the chess scene that was going to end the season until like 209. And then I got excited about it. For me, the difference was once I started to feel the idiosyncrasies and specificity of the emotions of these characters, not of the woman in the office, but of Catherine Waterson's Naomi and who she was and how she's playing the part and what her role in this is, it reinvigorated my,

engagement with the scene work. So that I knew broadly what was going to happen with Hassan Zomini and like his very bad espionage and why he gets busted. Yeah, and I think also... But in that moment, I was on the edge of my seat

again because I enjoyed that kid's performance and I was just locked in on the stakes for them. Yeah. You know, to your point, like I knew that Danny is getting away. But the show does a couple things that I... Maybe they did it in the French version. I don't remember. I don't even remember how it would have played out in the French.

I don't remember how it plays out in the French version of like who is Richardson in the French version and how that goes. Well, I don't think he executes him. No. In the French version, Malitru, who is Matthew Cassavits' character, Martian in this version, is he betrays France to America. Yeah. And the Americans are that, yes, to Buddy Garrity from Friday Night Lights. the Cowboys, the CIA. And that adds a whole other element.

Like, are these our allies? Or are they just the bullies who we owe to? I thought the whole, like, the China aspect of this guy's rise through MI6 was very cool. Of Richardson's rise through MI6 is very cool. I think there were two plots that I found very difficult to, like, sift through again, which was one very minor. Martian's relationship with his daughter and to the Danny plot because the Danny plot was so close to let's do one than the other the daughter stuff was to my mind much better this season okay um

it was it was minimized it was better chosen like i thought that the the moments and they made a joke about whether a fast bender could smile or not or whether he could laugh or not um the the agency of season one and the way they overweighted those scenes, I think would have, it surprised me that they didn't actually steal directly from the bureau, which if you remember, the entire second season's framing device is him writing his confession diary to his daughter. While he's in a hospital bed? That's season one. Well, it's season one, we see, I think it's season one. He's in the hospital selling out to the Americans, but we don't know who's interrogating him and why he's in a

hospital bed. That's the, that's a conceit. In this season, I believe it's the, it's the confession. I thought it showed great restraint that it didn't do that for the entire season. I agree. And the things that it did pull from the Bureau made me excited, like, like in this case, Poppy's relationship with Dozer is her name in the American version. But in the French version, the daughter has a surprising relationship with one of the, one of the minders. And it's sort of like this weird found family thing. I think the show did such, well, let me address the other thing before we get to the other compliments. The other thing was the Danny plot. I found it broadly as interesting as the first one. This is maybe it's just personal taste. I think Sarah Lightfoot

Leon who plays Danny. I liked her. I was more compelled by her as an actor. No disrespect to the French woman from the original series. But I just thought she has such a vibrancy and and passion that you see like she can play big so that when she's playing small you're really really laser focused on watching her I did think and I can't tell if it's just the nature of the show in my mind the second season was so expansive of the bureau and I remember what felt like really long set pieces and a lot of time spent in Iran in different ways slow building what that relationship became and it felt rushed this season?

I don't know if that's rushed because I was fast-forwarding in my mind. Maybe we're like in some weird ways the wrong people to talk about the agency because like I don't know that we can untether ourselves to the original show. You know, I'll talk about some stuff that really worked for me. Okay. The entire Valhalla thing and Owen and Robin I thought was awesome. And I thought tying it into American right-wing extremism but also like letting Owen kind of be this desk jockey who gets cocky and wants to become a field agent,

not unlike the original series, but McGarrow is so good in the show. He really is. And I specifically really enjoyed his conversations, brief as they may have been with Harriet Samson, Dr. Blake, with, I thought she brought such a cool quirk to it. I mean, that is one of the things that you really have to get around is the idea of like a therapist walking around a spy agency

and getting people who keep secrets for a living to just constantly speak and total vulnerabilities. But I thought her scenes with Fastbender and her scenes in the Garo were some of my favorites. But the entire Africa, the Central African Republic, diamond mining, Antwerp, like all of that stuff was really awesome. Shout out, Clay Crawford from Rectify as Viking.

You mentioned the thing. therapy scenes. Like, you and I read these books, Spy Fiction, and watch these shows for the clear-out ISO moments when Len Dydden or John LaCaree or recently Oliver Harris can really let us know what's going on with these people. And what excited me about those scenes, especially in the back half of the season, was you could feel the Butterworths starting to vibe out on that a little bit. And there's the Dr. Sampson scene with Naomi where she says, and I want to write this down before we did our pod, where she says two sorts of people are drawn to this work, those who wish to be someone else and those who are unable to be a person in the first place. And it's like, my God,

that's George Smiley's music. You know what I mean? It's just connecting it to this great tradition of like sweeping bombastic psychological statements about the broken people who take it upon themselves to fix the world. And the show elevated on that. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple of moments also spy to spy in this season, but specifically there's one, it's kind of when everything is about to collapse on Henry and he and Naomi are walking from the floor into his office and she's like, let's go, like, let's bring down Martian.

And he's like, you can't go too soon because of this and you can't wait too long because then you become a target. And he's just like trying to- Apex Predator. Yeah, basically like trying to explain why they have to time their move against Martian perfectly, and they don't time it perfectly, because obviously the MI6

guys are working against them. What about Naomi and Osmond, played by Kurt Eguyen, who's also on House the Dragon, and like that's an incredible scene where they're both saying, let's not do the thing that you do. Yeah, let's not like play for, like, positioning. Positioning, yeah.

And, you know, the thing about this show, again, I agree with you. I wish they went further with this, but it is so like all great, truly great spy fiction, it is very unsentimental about the way that people just get crushed up and used. And that's what I meant by like the Danny scene

where the rescue, we kind of knew what was going to happen, but the moment of almost needlessly killing the gas station attendant and then seeing the photo of him with his family laughing. Yeah. And there is nothing heroic about what any of these people are doing in a way that I find really compelling. Broadly speaking, I'd like to think that we use our platform here for good when possible.

Sure. I would like to implore someone more powerful and richer than us to pick the show up and make more. We do not know that it is canceled. It is not officially canceled. There could be negotiations being made right now. And it might not be that Paramount doesn't want it as much as like now because of the way, whatever reasons.

This cast is like, I'm not going to be available for nine months to live in England. It just strikes me as such a, it would strike me as such a deeply unfortunate fumble. Things happen all the time in good shows get canceled and good stories don't get resolved and good intentions don't get met. But you've put together something here that is not only incredibly special, but is kind of just getting going. That's on the precipice of being lost. And the difference is it's not asking some other rich pocketed tech company.

or streaming service to take a chance on the Butterworth brothers, who, by the way, studios have taken chances on before. Clearly, Paramount is very much in business with them, yeah. It's the fact that you have a roadmap. You have three more seasons of one of the greatest shows of all time to draw from. And if your concerns were that the show is too chilly, too cerebral, to this or to that, the end of this season should remind you that the Fast Bender action season is beginning. and he clearly likes doing that stuff.

And frankly, the fact that Matthew Kassivitz was doing it, I found really interesting because it's not the natural fit or what you'd expect. Fastbender seems like he's weighted 19 episodes. He loves wearing hooded sweatshirts and executing dudes. It just seems like he's waited 19 episodes to go full Prince of Persia. Do you know what I mean? So you have this.

You have it all teed up. Let them bring it home. Mr. Ellison, let them finish this. Are you willing to change your, your feeling on the merger, if they bring this back? Well, look, I think we've all, tempers have cooled,

there's a cooling off period. We've all paused here, but I agree, I will accept it. I don't know Rob Bonta. I will accept a temporary restraining order on my penchant for class warfare. If they, I think when we first talked about this,

we were talking about how, no matter how we felt specifically about the show or the season, We just feel like in a multi-billion-dollar global arms race for content, there should be a place for a show like this. Yeah. But what's maddening is you have it. I know it must be incredibly top-heavy and expensive,

and this cast is outrageous, and shooting in five countries and navigating people's schedules, and paying George Clutney and Grant Hasloved their EP fees and everything else. And he has a lot of directed a couple episodes. And he did really well. There was some beautiful direction in this episode where, like, there was a shot he had where stuff's going down, and then it just isolates Naomi in the bullpen.

the action was really well directed. It's not an easy show to make, I'm sure, but like you guys are making it. And yet when I went back to review some of the episodes this morning briefly, again, no one knows what this means, but it's not even in Paramount's top 10. I feel like,

I'm not saying these services aren't on the up and up, but I feel like Apple, at least, is like if there's a moment for a show to be doing well, they'll give it a little top 10 nudge. Yeah, I, I, you know, this speaks to the difficulty in, like, getting people, everybody who watches Lioness should watch the agency. You know what I mean?

Like, that should, there should not be a huge disparity between the audience for Lioness coming back next week. And, and the agency. Like, if you enjoy spy stories, if you enjoy complicated people trying to figure out their allegiances, like, you would love this show. But it's a little bit dead. answer and there's fewer action set pieces for sure. And there's way more plot lines. I mean,

I was not going to bill about it this weekend. And he was just like, there's just too many people on the show. You know, and I was like, all right, well, I think at a different time, like, if this was up against like after the Sopranos, you'd be able to follow it. But like something has kind of changed about the mechanics of watching these. It's also, I'll say that there were, I'm not pretending the show's perfect. And I'm not pretending it was a perfectly positioned adaptation. because I think the thing that really hooks people into Liburo is that initially, before it's anything else, it's a love story about Star Cross lovers trying to get back to each other.

And then it becomes everything else. And I think Jody Smith-Turner really steps up. I thought she was quite excellent this season. I thought she was incredible. And there's a lot more road for that character to travel as well. But I have to say that I've never fully been invested because Fastbender is like, Like, Paul Lewis seems like a kind of a chilly prick, too. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Like, you don't see him turn it on and turn it off, and they don't have many opportunities to rekindle the spark. So I don't feel, as an audience member, the same, like, yearning desire for this to work despite all of the betrayal and treason. And I think that that might be a necessary building block to get people to buy in so that they can understand. I mean, there's a line in this episode right before Fastbender executes Paddington's dad, where I had to put the subtitles on. And he's basically saying, how long have you been taking the chairmen's? And there's a very specific Chinese word. Rembi. Yes, of like the quid pro quo. Like, like, and I'm like, you're asking the audience to unpack that line with or without subtitles. Like, good for you. Yeah. But that is not

a Taylor Sheridan show in terms of what's asking. I do wonder whether or not I would feel differently about it. Because I think that the Fassbender's casting for as much as I adore him as a performer is challenging at times. And I do wonder what would happen if you had gone with like say Peter Sarsgarde who is a very Matthew Cassavitz-esque American actor

and you know perhaps a little bit older than you would want to play Martian but still like has that like looks like an English teacher but you know moves like a killer you know that it has there's you see Michael Vasspenter you're like you are the fucking killer.

You are literally the killer in the David Fincher movie. I have no doubt that you're like eating protein in the backseat of a car, getting ready to kill the head of MI6. And when everybody is like, you're the greatest liar who's ever existed, I'm like, yes, he is.

Yes. It's the first thing I think about him. Yeah. Or, I mean, thank God, you know, Viking, it's a tough way to go, although if you got doing what you love and he did love chess and overthrowing African republics.

But when he's just like, you are not a weasel, I'm like, yeah, if that guy got off the point, and it's like I work for a diamond merchant in Antwer, but I'm not even the boss. I would keep him away from all sharp objects. I would keep him away from

magazines thinking he was going to Jason Boren my ass. Viking, man. Died as he lived. Let's take a quick break, and then we're going to do House of the Dragon really quick. Okay, we're back. Let's talk about Dragon. We don't need to belabor this one because

I imagine you did not care for it. Wasn't my favorite hour. Nor was it Malin Joe's. I'd like to use. hear about this. They, well, you can on House of R. They talked extensively about, last night I don't talk to Thrones about, like, their issues with this episode.

Some of which were adaptive, that word of? I'll allow it. Emily Wilson would not allow it. Some of them were just basic storytelling, like, how did that guy get from there to there in successive scenes? Enjoyed the Laris Agon stuff, as usual. RIP to my guy, Kristen Cole. Well, I want to talk about that.

Detective Grasso, may you continue to patrol Bucks County. I don't want to spoil anything, but he survived worse. That's true. Do you know what I mean? That's true. What did you make of this episode? Well, I guess I'm really curious more to hear your perspective, a little bit in the know, a little bit on the outs, you know, because I didn't particularly find, I didn't find anything particularly different in this episode than the ones that have been boring me for the last. few weeks. And so I don't really want to belabor those points.

It's just, it's a lot more like, now we're here, now we're there, now we're there. I think that my issue with it was just that they're having the same conversations every episode. Over and over. Particularly the Renera-Alison conversations being the same one. And the Renera Damon conversation. And you know, like it's a lot of people being like, what

should we do next? Yeah. And holding their breath for the big things they have to deploy. And so you can almost feel the same hand of, no pun intended, of plotting that, you know, put the battles at the top and then tries to, it basically tries to play with timing and surprise,

and you feel that with what happens to Sir Kristen Cole. But I was just sort of felt very little from that. Like it felt more manipulative to me to have it begin an episode, because what I felt was the galaxy brain plotting of like the audience won't expect this, and yet what it did was just more remind me that this was a road to nowhere anyway.

And now the show has highlighted that. The show has not pretended, you know, his speech last week about how we're all going on a suicide mission now. Did not make it seem like there was a happy ending in store. But the general feeling that I struggle with week to week, and frankly, I'm sure people are as tired of hearing me say it as I am of saying it, is like I feel like the show presents a series of boxes and then checks them. Yeah, boxes is a word that I want to jump on here.

Because I think I've tried to articulate this in various ways. over the couple of weeks. And this is obviously, like, I think that this is my favorite season of the show, favorite.

But it's unfair to compare one-to-one to Game of Thrones. But Game of Thrones probably didn't have a spectacularly different scene-to-scene to scene

difference in what people were doing, you know, often talking, you know, I think what I'm craving is either scenery

or like I wish that more of these conversations could be happening in different places than throne room chambers Heron Hall like in the dark woods somewhere like part of the thing that made throne so great is because they would put these pairs of characters out on the road somewhere

trying to get from one place to the north or from ESOS back to whatever and you know Dorn and all these places it was like such an expansive portrait of this imaginary world that no matter what people were talking about it was cool to look at and it seemed like what they were looking at

or where they were would influence the nature of the conversations and change the nature of the relationships and because so many of these characters are trapped by their own power I mean even Ormond has basically been in like a dining room for three episodes now smelling things eating or barfing eating or eating or eating or eating and teaching and for his existence

exciting is that sword fight was. I thought that was an awesome scene. I was like, yeah, but it's like, this is, I don't know, it's just, this is all happening in one of three places. And I, I think one thing that Thrones really successfully avoided was

even though the battles were huge takeout episodes, I don't really, I never really sat around being like, when's the battle going to happen on Game of Thrones until the very end. And on Dragon, I feel like they're almost overshadowed.

the entire series. Yeah, it's reverse engineered the wrong way. We were talking, this is the third reference to Banshee on this podcast. Lonnie Perister, who directed and started, I think, started his career on Banshee, directed this episode. He's directed other episodes of Dragon. The action sequences are incredibly well done. There are moments, you know, like just, just like that whole opening sequence where there's the ambush and the surprise attack. If you were someone who cared deeply about sword or mace combat, you would be so delighted with this episode, you would have nothing else to complain about. That's not my bag. And frankly, coming off of the Odyssey, I'm ready to address all of this town's Foley experts

with a plea of like, can we find a different sound for swords entering people's bodies? Like, I think that we iterated a lot in the last decade, and it's real crunchy now, and you really get the sense of metal on metal, it's a metal on bone, and there's never a stabbing that isn't just like, like, I remember when I was in Foley for my show and you see a character smoke a cigarette, they're like, let's sweeten that cherry up a little bit, you know, and you make every cigarettes sound like it's the greatest, yeah, it's like you fucking, it's like, it sounds like Matthew McConaughey breathing, true detective. They're doing that with the sword fighting, and God bless them, but like maybe we can do something

different now. Like, we're ready. I don't know what that sound is. Maybe experts will come in and say, well, it's a perfect combination of like metal on metal and like wood snapping and also, I don't know, kittens dying. That's like very, very accurate. I'm sure. But that is what the show excels at.

And I think that the larger thing that will continue to be... I'm not pretending. I don't like the show. I've never liked the show. You can tune out now if you want. But I will continue to say that the idea of stakes is still often misunderstood by people when we're talking about television shows.

And there are many reasons why Game of Thrones was excellent for a wide audience for many years. But on a very, very, very specifically, level, its reason for greatness is the same reason why the pit is great, which is because you feel like you are watching something where the stake, not the stakes, where the, yeah, well, in this case, like the stakes are that the world or someone's life will never be the same after this. In Game of Thrones, it was like, a prophecy is going to change the world forever. Winter is coming, the status quo is going to end, and we are going to tell that story of the end of this version

of this world. And we didn't know what, we didn't know where it was coming from or how it would affect people, but we saw people journeying with that knowledge towards that, towards that end. You know, similarly, like, there's a version of a show like Lanterns, which we're excited about, which would be like, guess what, these guys are space cops. And this year's season is there's a space cop murderer. Or it's like, this guy is no longer going to be a space cop, and this is his replacement, and this is the most existential threat these space cops have ever faced in the history of their space copying existence. I'm leaning in.

What are your intentions here? And the fact with House of the Dragon is the lesson every character learns every episode is that it can always get worse. Yeah. And what's the meta story here? I mean, a macro story here. I've not spoiled anything, but I've watched Game of Thrones. So guess what?

I know the Targaryans fuck up and fail. Yeah, I think that there's elements of, I really don't need to get into a deep debate about this, but I do think that within those conversations that say Damon is having with Reneira or Reneer is having with Allison. There's things about the nature of power that I find kind of interesting and how she could be successful. She would just have to be history's greatest monster.

Like she could achieve everything that she wants. She would just have to burn Tumbled into the ground. And her reluctance to do that for whatever reasons, whether it's because she's listening to Misaria or she's listening to her better angels, I don't think is going to go great for her.

And perhaps there, it's difficult to tell a tragedy because I think that's ultimately what this is. And telling a tragedy on television where half the people probably know the story and half the people can guess what the story is and just based on what happens in Game of Thrones, you know, they don't sing great songs about Renira, the sweet and kind. Like, you know, like people are just kind of like watching, they want well executed tragedy then. And, you know, one of the things that I thought was really odd about this episode was

the Kristen Cole thing happens in the beginning. I think his viewers are like, I've spent a lot of time with this character. That was a dramatic and sort of thrilling death. And not a single other character on the show knows it. Great point. And I know word travels in weird ways in this Westeros where sometimes people seem to know exactly where everyone is and get updates from Ravens.

And sometimes people are like waiting on information for quite some time. but that just seems like something that would travel the kingdom pretty fast if the hand of the king or queen or whoever was murdered in battle and nobody seems to give a shit and he has connections to all sorts of people in the show be it their adversary, their lover, their betrayer, whatever.

And I thought that was strange and I think that's a flaw of the show that they're not like, this leads to that which leads to that. But I mean, I think it's just a flawed construction. They've done a lot of good work this season by putting characters in the same building as each other, which was impossible for them to do last year. So we're getting more of it, but not enough.

And I think your point about tragedies was really interesting because what are some of the greatest tragedies in the history of television? They're the greatest shows in the history of television. The Sopranos is a tragedy. Breaking Bad is a tragedy. Breaking Bad is a hundred percent of tragedy. The wire, in a way, is a tragedy that also found room for, you know, great moments of hope, levity, joy, emotion, everything. The tragedy of it is more compelling to me of a show.

Look, listen, I know we're doing. We're like entering hour two of a podcast of episode eight of season three of House the Dragon, and I'm comparing it unfairly to one of the greatest shows of all time about cops in Baltimore. I get this is a little bit ludicrous. But the tragedy of that show is because people want to change things, and they struggle because change is very, very hard. Yes. There is a version of Westeros that is that.

There's a version of DeNaris that was that, right? Like, that is not David Simon's proprietary idea, but the show also has to service these moments of made-up history and dragons per episode. And I don't, everybody loses a little bit because of that. It's too, it's at once, is it once too broad and too specific in its aims? Well, we won't be speaking about it again until after the finale. I think that's good.

And I think that's for the best. So we'll be back on Thursday, regular show. And then next week, just so you guys know, Mailbag on Monday, Anthony Bourdain special on Thursday, where we'll talk about some of our favorite episodes of his various shows, some of our favorite kind of extra Bordane

pieces of culture. Does this mean we won't be covering the Shards premiere in real time? We're going to wait a week on that? I'm going live on Twitch for that. Dude, that's... Janky Rondo. Talk to you guys soon.

Thanks to Kaya, and we'll be back on Thursday.