The Watch - 'American Gods,' 'Twin Peaks,' 'The Americans,' and Other Shows You Should Be Watching (Ep. 157)

Episode Date: June 9, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald are joined by colleague Allison Herman to talk about 'American Gods' (6:23), 'Twin Peaks' (14:05), and other shows you should be watching (19:00). Later, they are joined by colleague Rob Harvilla to talk about the the current state of 'The Americans' (24:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me in the studio, The Hung Parliament. It's Andy Greenwald and Allison Herman. Yo, we just did, later in the show, we're joined by Alison Herman now from the Ringer. It's a Ringer Palooza Day. Say hi, Allison.

Hello. So that everybody can hear you. Fresh from the trenches of the content wars. I'm here to give my opinions and my takes. I'm excited to be here. And we have Rob Her Villa also. of the ringer.com joining us in a little bit to talk about the Americans. This is a loosey-goosey day.

Obviously on television people have been watching Comey, you know, your boy. That was a good show. But that's the biggest show of the week. It got weird at the end. I think Cody gets the belt. I think it was Jim Ponowazek who called it the Watergate reboot. Yeah, it's good this time. Although the old man character that wandered onto the set at the end, that guy was a little bit.

No, he was up late watching Arizona Diamondbacks game. Which is the best euphemism I've never heard in my life. Nobody watches Arizona Diamondbacks games, come on. It would have been cool if Comey had just done the Dr. Amp shit shovel speech. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. From the show Twin Peaks. Yeah, right.

It's just a little bit of a segue I'd like to make. Do you want to get down to it? Oh, we can talk about Twin Peaks. I just feel like this has been, you know, I'm coming out of the NBA playoffs. I got at least one more game. I'm hoping the last one tomorrow night. No offense to the Cleveland fans,

but my nights are going to be free, Allison and you know we're going to talk a little bit about two weeks. Do you know how many Diamondbacks games he's going to get up to? I was just wondering like what is it like to have a night without anything on your viewing agenda? I don't know. This is such a foreign sensation to me. I started just watching golf instructional videos at YouTube. I have heard. Guys last night I had a free 19 minutes and I watched another episode of Samurai Gourmet in which you won't believe this. The main character tried on sunglasses was worried they made him look shady went to an Italian restaurant and ordered spaghetti.

Did the samurai help him to do these things? The samurai told him basically not to be fearful that he was like acting uncouth in a fancy restaurant and that he could get chopsticks and slurp his spaghetti and he didn't have to like eat it delicately with a fork. I'm fascinated that the samurai is apparently contributing to like sartorial decisions and not just culinary ones. Great call. Great call. The samurai did not comment on the sunglasses. They had been removed at that point. Okay, I'm glad I clarified. Fun fact, did you guys know that in Japan wearing sunglasses is considered a little bit odd because usually Yakuza wear sunglasses. Oh, so I would definitely rock some sunglasses. Yeah.

That didn't come up in the episode. That's just a little fun fact I know. That's the like the 15 minute episodes on Netflix. It's about a guy's like entry into the world. It's about a 60 year old man. Culinary Delights. Who eats lunch. I can't believe.

It's my dream show. What a world, man. I can't, I can't believe Netflix is free except a car. I mean, I know it costs money, but you know what I mean? I just can't believe that they're just like, sounds good, whatever it takes. What's your favorite food show? Food show. Hannibal would be the proper answer, I think.

Well played. I mean, I've been rewatching, so we talked a little bit about American gods in the office, and on the occasion, it's on Amazon Prime back seasons of Hannibal, and I rewatched a few episodes, and that holds up. They keep teasing another season of that, don't they? Fuller keeps dropping. The Silence of the Lambs writes, like the Thomas Harris rates. It's a cause-celeb.

It's a thing for hashtag Fanable. is to wear flower crowns. Wow. Yeah, it's, I don't know if it's going to happen, but it brings me together. But it is exciting because, remember, first of all Hannibal was a magnificent show and a really unique show,

but it also was enticing to people because I think Fuller talked about how he had a plan to tell all of Thomas Harris's novels through the prism of his show. They were going to get to the sounds of the lambs cases, and he was even going to take a swing at Hannibal, right? the plot from that book. I think so.

And it's sort of crazy how the show went out in that it kind of could have been a finale. And then they just tacked on a cliffhanger that also happened to involve Gillian Anderson, which was just custom designed to drive the internet insane. Do you have, if they brought it back as Silence of the Lamb, if they did the Silence of the Lamb's storyline, do you have a dream clear use? I love you're putting her on the spot today. This is the next level up for Allison. I can't say I've dared to, to, to,

venture there because what Brian Fuller is capable of coming up with his imagination, I've never really thought of. Ooh, maybe like a Gillian Jacobs type. Interesting. She's very good. She is quite good. She's great and I want to see her do drama. Yeah.

And you don't get more dramatic than. And she's one of those people who was trained to be a dramatic actor and then slid into comedy. Yeah, I have rewatched silence recently because of after Demi passed away. And I was just like, that movie is still like, there's nothing wrong with that movie. It's just like a perfect movie. And probably the last time... Is it too scary for you?

No, I love that movie. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for looking out for me. That's probably the last time the, we're knocking on the wrong door misdirect. Oh, yeah. Has really...

That was incredible. I remember what I saw it for us? What? Yeah. It's a different door. Yeah. It's a good segue. Allison, we wanted to have you on for a number of reasons,

but one of them is we'd like to have you on because in your capacity is TV critic for the ringer. You watch everything. or many things. Not everything. You watch a bunch of things. But a lot, yes. I no longer do, and I feel fabulous.

Congratulations on that. Thank you. But you watch things that you think maybe we should be watching. You mentioned Brian Fuller. I feel like we should touch back in with American Gods, which Chris and I watched the beginning of. We watched the first one or two. I was entertained in no way compelled to keep watching.

please tell me why I'm wrong or if I'm wrong. So I think it's sort of rare to have such a definitive turning point in a TV show. I mean, obviously the consensus in the leftovers is it got better, but it's not like season one was totally, you know, there's guests, there's good episodes and otherwise. Hey, hey, hey, you're coming out of my corner here. Season one is bad. That's my thing. We're going to agree to disagree there. But I think with American Gods, there's something really interesting happened in that the first.

fourth episode was a spotlight episode about a supporting character who is Shadow's deceased wife. And I think, who's she played by? Emily Browning. Right. Oh, right. I wondered because she's a well, I mean, not famous, but she is a well regarded actress.

And she appeared only in that phone call, right, in the pilot. Yes. And I think one of the things that is sort of an impediment to American gods is they do not mind taking their time. They have Crispin Glover as basically, I think he's a series regular and he doesn't show up until episode five. But she gets a spotlight episode that I think could have been, you know, oh, we find out this backstory that we didn't find out about her in the novel. That's cool. Let's move on. But what they do is they basically solve the biggest structural problem in the show, which is that they have a protagonist who is not super compelling because he's starting from a raw material where in the book he's basically not a character.

He's just a passive conduit of information and exposition to you. I would also say the actor is not the most expressive actor. Is that fair to say? Maybe he's improved. I also, I want to grade him on something of a curve just because they're starting with negative anything. And he's a British model. Yes, and he's a British model. Like Chris.

Chris is also a British model. Maybe for me personally he's slightly more compelling. But yeah, they have this spotlight episode that gives her full motivation, backstory and everything. and then they actually carry her into the rest of the show and they basically just make her a second protagonist. And you realize that the show gets so much better when they make it more like a TV show. Like as someone who read the novel

and watched the first few episodes, I remember knowing they went through this abortive attempted HBO, they went through like three writers. And I remember thinking, you know, it's sort of weird because the actual thing they came up with is a pretty straightforward adaptation. I wonder why it took so long. and then it gets noticeably better

when it starts departing from the book and adding more point of view characters and there are also other characters who are more marginal in the book who become not fully co-protagonist but much more active. It's like more of an ensemble rather than like four. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, exactly. So I know it is so annoying to be told wait until X episode and it gets good but I do think the fourth episode is a genuine turning point for the show and it's not like it scales back on any of the things that I'm sure you guys found interesting about it, which is the insane visuals and the fun little side vignettes.

And McShane. And McShane. Just lots of McShane. Although actually, I'm almost done with Sunday's episode, and I don't even think he's in it, but it's a Pablo Schreiber episode. It's because he's too busy narrating golf documentaries. That's what you really care about. But yeah, I think it's just I'm so happy that the show has been made.

I love that Brian Fuller has been given the budget and the, non-network standards and practices department to do whatever he pleases. This is more of a behind-the-scenes question that I'm not really aware of. How involved is he? Because Michael Green worked on it with him, right? He's not show running. Who's running show running? They're co-show running.

Because Michael Green also has, he's written every movie that came out this year, but he also is doing Y, The Last Man for FX, or developing it on some level. I don't know where that is. Yeah. So I interviewed the two of them together in anticipation of the premiere, and, my impression was Brian Fuller started and then he was like

this is too big a task for one person I need a partner and they very much presented themselves as co-equal partners in the endeavor and I know Fuller stepped away from the Star Trek thing

that's going on in CBSL access so we could devote his attention to more fully. So I know they're renewed for a second season. If you had to take an informed guess, do you think that he, because to me,

I mean even though American gods I know is like a really beloved property, Star Trek is kind of like Like, to do Star Trek even for CBS All Access would be a huge opportunity. Does him stepping away from Star Trek at CBSL Access suggest that it became very CBS-E? I don't know in the sense that I do buy the idea that American Gods is very demanding and he couldn't do too. And I know he wrote the story for the first two episodes and maybe just wrote, wrote the pilot. I just think it's a huge endeavor.

and I can't even imagine signing on to both of them. But I will say the trailer that they showed at Upfronts was... For Star Trek? Yes. Was. Had someone on Twitter pointed out as some of the most obvious sound overdubbing I've ever seen the trailer, it didn't look like it was super ready for prime time.

You know, it was interesting, but it's been pushed back a few times. It's got the trouble production label it has to work off. Yeah, I think that it's very possible to draw sorts of conclusions, but I think it's not... it's probably safe to say that if Hannibal proved anything, it's that Brian Fuller's sensibility, the way he likes to work, is not necessarily a perfect fit for network.

And even though it's all access, it's still CBS. It's so a major property that they need to protect. I also think it's something like Star Trek, despite the success of something like Next Generation over the years. It's that that is something that... I think you can do stories like that, like Firefly, or was it Firefly when it was on TV, and then it was... Serenity, right?

Serenity is the movie. Yeah, so whether it's Firefly or Next Generation or any number of shows that have taken place, and pretty sci-fi like locales, you're always going to like kind of walk the line where like if it looks bad or if it doesn't look right, it's a real turnoff

because that's like 60% of the reason you're there is to be in space, right? And it's also there's so much more of a range on TV so it's not like, oh, it's TV so it's inherently going to look cheaper. It's, oh, there's an even more elaborate sci-fi show going on on stars that looks better than what I'm going to get on ABC.

Before we move on from American Gods, for people who are listening who have not watched it, Do you have a one sentence pitch to get them on board? Is there a comp? Besides Ian McShane is on TV again? Yeah, I think that was basically where Chris and I left it. That was the only place where we engaged with it.

I just think it's an incredible opportunity for one of TV's most daring visual storytellers to really have the chain taken off and also to partner up with someone who's already an incredibly beloved storyteller across several mediums. Neil Gaiman. And it's totally worth giving it your time. I'm also someone who does not mind how slow it was just because I'm happy to let Orlando Jones ranting into the camera just wash over me. Speaking of things that some people find slow that I find intoxicating. We haven't talked about Twin Peaks in a minute.

No, let's do it. Let's do Twin Peaks real quick before we get to Rob. I'm so in on the fifth episode. Thank you. Me too. I was talking to a friend about this. Who doesn't like it? Alan Sepp and Wall.

I'm sorry. I mentioned him when I speak to Rob too, which sounds like I'm four times. telling the future, but we already did that interview. He was a little bit out on it. I mean, I think people are feeling their way through it, and no one knew what this was going to be. No one knew what to expect. And the fact that we are just still parked with Dougie.

And a weird boxes ringing in Buenos Aires. Yeah, which I believe they filmed on location in Buenos Aires. I think that that was one of the reasons why David Nevins was sweating. You're crazy for this one, Devons. Sorry, go on. I will say, you know, you mentioned we didn't know we were getting it first, and yet this is the first episode where I felt like this is a TV show. We are returning to characters that we, you know, in the span of David Lynch, we understand.

We sort of get what's happening with the Cooper, Dougie's which are ruin evil coop. And we're returning as storylines that we saw last week. And we're not getting it in this, like, giant bingeable block of four. And I remember thinking as I was watching it, I'm so happy that this is going to be like an hour of my life every Sunday night for the next 13 nights. And I don't feel as stunned into silence as I was in the first 20 minutes of ever. episode three, but I feel grounded enough that I can be blown away by Dr. Jacoby becoming Alex Jones. Yeah, right.

I mean, I think I said to Allison after I watched the episode that was like, the only thing that I would say as a note of caution is that, like, we are up around 20 characters now. Like, you know, just like when they introduced to the guy who was smoking at the bang bang club at the end of five. Who close watchers might have noticed was credited in the credits as having the last named Horn. Like, uh, maybe Ben,

Horn or Jerry Horn. We don't know. We don't know. I mean, I'm pouring over those credits, man. I just was like noting that, like him on top of Caleb Lander Jones and Amanda Seffreed,

on top of, you know, old characters, new characters, teenage characters, older characters, like just at total. And then when they cut to Agent Preston, I'm like, oh yeah, this person's on this show, right?

Okay. So like, there's also this, there's whole plot line. And we haven't gone back to Twin Peaks, barely at all. Yeah. I mean, we saw the double R. we saw.

I do think we're kind of kind of filtering that in a little more. We got Safe Ried and Caleb and the key is the key in the mailbox is going to kind of get there. Yeah. Yeah. My defense that would be, you know, the, the craziness of the first four episodes is kind of crystallized into a very simple coup is stranded in Las Vegas. Evil coup is still around. And I think they're starting to head back towards Twin Peaks. But I feel like almost like now that Lynch has, Lynch and Frost have clarified so transparently that this is not the Twin Peaks that we left, they almost feel more comfortable easing into the small town antics.

And I also think it's worth looking at the show through the prism of remembering what worked so well the first time. Now, not saying this is the same show or that it should be considered the same show. But what made the show so brilliant more than anything else was actually the chemistry between Frost and Lynch because Mark Frost brought a much more traditional, I mean, he has his own eccentricities and stylistic whatever's and he's a funny guy and a funny writer. But he was writing, no one's David Lynch. Let's put it that way. So, you know, if you think about an example of that partnership being like,

if David Lynch is like a wild bird and Frost was the cage around the bird, but the bird didn't mind being in the cage, it worked. Yeah. Right? They helped each other out. Lynch made it more than a TV show and Frost helped tie it to the rails. I think that what's fun about this, and I would use this to respond to people who think that Douggy stuff's going on too long is, look, they shot the whole thing.

He's not going to be wandering around like that forever. The thing to remember also is that this was written at a length that was probably nine episodes and then they had then lynch had fun with it and stretched it right so is this traditionally is this what david nevin saw in the script that he would be dougie and wandering around um you know pissing like a racehorse for like five weeks in Vegas probably not but it's great that he is because it's so funny and it's so strange and it there's so everyone in Vegas is so tolerant of him and laugh now like let's enjoy this because it's time seismore just be seismore yeah i do think that this is going to begin to edge itself back towards convention a little bit.

And I would also like to say I almost don't mind the Duggy stuff because, and I don't think I've seen that many people say this, I think Kyle McLaughlin is giving an amazing performance. I feel like the Duggy stuff is hilarious, but it's also genuinely moving. Like you feel how sad it is that this decent person is stranded and is fighting his way out of brain damage basically. Also, let's look at that. There's a moment when he looks at the sun. It's sunny Jim in the car and the way he's looking at him and his life and he cries.

Yeah, and it's beautiful. That's been an interesting theme throughout the first few episodes is these older characters almost breaking into tears over the memory or the inability to break free of the characters that they have always played. Last thing before we let Allison go. Can you give us one more? I'm putting you on the spot. Can you give us another show we're not watching that we should be watching? Don't say Samurai gourmet.

I can view an upcoming show that I would be happy to recommend to your view. viewers. It's a show called Claws on T&T. Not Santa, like Kitty Cat. CLAWS. Like Clause out. It is a long-deserved starring role for Niecy Nash, who I think is one of our best comic actresses working Reno 9-1-1. She was the best part of Scream Queen. The best part of getting on, I would say. And the best part of getting on, which is, I feel like that's a little different because getting on is just a great show and everyone's great in it. And she also has a habit of making, you know, a lesser Ryan Murphy show pop. It's a long-deserved starring role.

It's a show that was developed for HBO and therefore looks like a million bucks. It's got that Spring Breakers, American Honey, Florida, Quora, Neon, Everywhere, aesthetic. Most importantly, I don't know if listeners of your podcast are aware of this, but there's a lot of prestige TV out right now. We skirt around that topic, but you've really just come out and set it. Yeah, we've plumbed its depths. and, you know, we're coming out of like basically a two and a half month, like, Emmy Bait run. This is this time of year is to TV what September is to Oscar season.

I am so ready for summer TV and this just blossomed into my inbox. And what's it about? It is about a nail salon in Florida that is tied up in money laundering for the Dixie Mafia, which is apparently a thing that exists. I'm in on this. Yeah. Carrie Preston, who is one of TV's best character actors, you might recognize are from the good wife in true blood is in it.

Khrushy Tran, who I did not know was a great, or did acting basically, has a great supporting role in this. All right. And the nail porn is real. I'm excited. We should also, Chris, we should tell people, we're going to talk Fargo on Monday.

Sure. Because we have a lot to talk about, especially with this last episode. But finally, you're going to let me talk the Americans. And I think you're only going to let me do it because it's a little negative, a little tough love for my favorite show. our sponsor. We'll be right back.

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All right, Andy's going to talk to Rob Harvilla right now about the Americans. So because Chris has exempted himself from this conversation, I need someone to chat with. I took a draft deferment on this one. So I placed a call to the ringer's own Residentura. And I got Rob Harvilla on the phone. Rob, you wrote a piece last week on the ringer about this.

I'm searching for an adjective. Maybe you're going to help me find one. This sodden fifth season of the Americans. Sodden is excellent. I wish I had to thought of sod. I've only got one adjective. You had a whole piece that I completely agreed with. Okay, good.

Comrade, we got to talk about this. We got to talk about what went wrong. Something was Rodden in Moscow. It was just a botched math equation where there just wasn't enough happening. I think they killed Nina off and they didn't replace her and they resolved Martha and they didn't replace her. And they were just happening and they just sort of reiterated that everyone is very sad, you know, in ways, you know, in less effective ways than they already had. I think it really is that simple. Like, if you're five seasons deep into the show by now,

like I think you're on its wavelength, and it is a very much slower and more dower and sodden kind of thing. Like, it's not one for melodrama or, like, huge action or just huge happenings whatsoever. Like, it's a lot of very, very pretty people, like, sulking, you know, and you're down with that at this point. But I think even within that context, this season just felt really airless and just sort of motionless.

I could not agree with you more. And people, I was going to say long-time listeners, but long-time listeners of the watch rarely hear me talking about the Americans. I don't allow it. Because I got Stonewall Jackson over here. But, you know, I completely agree with what you're saying. I think there was unquestionably a vacuum created by the absence of two of the shows more compelling characters in Nina and Martha, although Martha did return slightly. I've heard Alan Semenwald say that he feels that two-seasoned. renewals are dangerous things. Now, the Americans was renewed for two seasons, this season that we

just watched and the upcoming final season. And his concern was that, you know, when you get the two-season renewal, you start pacing things in an unnatural way to build up to your conclusion. I kind of want to, I kind of want to give that viewpoint some credence, but at the same time, they didn't do anything this season, as far as I can tell, to set up next season. In fact, it was a very dramatic exercise in essentially installing. And what I'm wondering, and I think this picks up what you were when you were talking about with the show the show's hallmarks and what we have you know and I still feel this way

we have loved the show for is this really remarkable subtle emotional storytelling where the plot didn't necessarily expand outwards it just drilled deeper and deeper and closer to the bone what concerned me about this season and it very well could be an aberration

there's certainly going to be plot next year whether they like it or not but what concerned me about it is that and I have not talked to Joe and Joel the showrunners about this but it strikes me that they maybe were feeling a little bit critically bulletproof and took a big swing. And the big swing was, well, they love when we do this sort of anti-story storytelling. Let's just do a whole season of that. No, I think there's a danger.

And this was, you know, this was their big, they finally got like the Emmy nominations. And they finally started to get the attention, like the establishment attention that they'd always wanted. You know, like this show used to be on everybody's best show that you're not watching list. and like the ratings did not reflect the quality and all that kind of thing. Like between, you know, the Emmy nods in between, you know, Matthew and Carrie, like becoming sort of power couple. I think that they just, they attained a certain level of celebrity, you know, got a certain amount of accolades that they hadn't had before.

And I don't know if that makes you sort of slow down or stop. But yeah, I think it's more likely that it was the two-season thing, you know, that they had called their tune and they knew exactly how they wanted to go out. and it was understandable given that that, yeah, like the first of the two remaining seasons would be more of a setup. I'm trying to think, for some reason, had not started this last season yet. It's like, you don't need to watch it. I mean, you can have the plot movement explained to you in like 30 seconds. Yeah, and you know, and most of that plot discussion would say, Oleg Burrov investigates grocery store fraud for 12 hours.

That's not a joke. Chris is laughing, not a joke. me. That felt very deliberate to me. Like, it's hard to believe that that wasn't them being like, what is literally the most boring thing that we can think of to spend him to go do? And, like, meanwhile, there's a whole midges and wheat situation happening. Like, it was just, it felt like perverse how old they were trying to make this stuff. It's like when, uh, what you were talking about with the Emmy attention, it reminded me of like, if I'm driving my, my older daughter home from school, and she says something funny and we got home to the,

dinner table and I mentioned to my wife that our daughter said something funny and she says I don't want to do it you do it it's like she she definitely doesn't want the attention and in fact she wants to sabotage the moment I to your to your point um it's one thing to say the season is going to be about food or whatever the theme was but then to completely abandoned what yeah well it was about it was about wheat I mean listen it was a season was a failure Chris you guys you win but the But then to abandon it halfway through was even stranger. And to talk about things that just didn't pay off, I mean, we don't need every episode to be the walking dead.

You do not need every episode to end with a bang, but you need an episode to end with something. I mean, episode one ended with Philip and Elizabeth digging a hole for 15 minutes. I believe episodes four, nine, and ten, and I'm just, I'm just guessing here, ended with one of them looking at the other. Like, to the point where I was like, technically, that's not even an act out. Then it said, stay tuned for scenes for the next. I'm like, I'd like some scenes from this one. But to your other point, the last season set up what appeared to be the big plot point for this year, which was the appearance of Phillips' heretofore unknown son, Misha.

Right. I forgot about that. That was even weirder. Misha traveled to America where he was greeted by Frank Langella, which is, I believe, part of the treaties we have with Europe and the East, is that Franklin Gello will greet you. other thing. And he was told... You might want to check those treaties, by the way.

Listen, everything's in flux right now. I don't know if you've been watching the news. And he tells him this isn't going to happen, so he should go back. And then he goes back. And then I read Joe Weisberg, the show's creator and co-show runners interview with Alan Sappenwall talking about the Misha plot. And to him, the other time we saw Misha was when he was breaking bread with Phillips' heretofore unseen brother, that this was a emotional release for him this scene, that he was.

wept when he saw it. And that... Joe did. Joe did. And I wept when I read that because that worried me so, so much about what... I'm weeping now. I know. I know. You know, it's...

Shows have had bad... Good shows have had bad seasons. You know, Friday Night Lights famously had season two. I'm sure there are others that I'm blanking on right now. But how do you feel? I mean, you and I are alike, and we've committed so much time to the show. We love the show, and we have... have definitely stood on that wall explaining to people why they should be watching it,

and then we get this. So how are you feeling right now? Well, I close the season, like, is there anything that could happen that could get me to stop watching? Like, I have invested a goodly amount of time, you know, and dramatic emotion into this show at this point. Like, I'm not going to stop watching now. You know, if I know there's one more season left, there's nothing that's going to turn me away. But this was definitely the first season that I considered, like, this skipping.

huge chunks to the season to playing my hunch that nothing was going to happen and nothing happened and I, one thing that I wanted to get into in my piece that I didn't was that even Philip and Elizabeth

as like further corrupted or conflicted people, they sort of went backward there too because the other big thing that happened in season four that I really liked was Young E was the Korean, the Mary Kay woman

who Elizabeth's be friends and actually be friends. Like, for the first time, you see that she really, like, likes the person who she's playing, the person who she's talking to and, like, manipulating in whatever way. And she's legitimately sort of conflicted about, like, ruining this person's life. Like, I, that, that seemed like a major milestone for me and her character and just Philip and Elizabeth, like, their arc. And to go back now to be, you know, now they're pilots, they're fake pilots for some reason.

and they have this new family, and, like, the dad's a blowhard, and, like, the mom's okay, but kind of whiny, and, like, the kid is a mess. Like, they, they're sort of attuned to them because, you know, they recognize themselves in these people, but there isn't that emotional connection, you know, they don't feel as bad about ruining their lives until right at the very end. Like, that seems like a major step backward, too. Like, the way this season ends with them deciding to stay, reluctantly to stay, in America as opposed to get out.

Like, I just feel like they've screwed up that arc as well. I completely agree. The fact that it ended in such a strange atonal way was one thing, but the fact that the plot event that swung them into staying was based on the Kimmy plot, which has been largely absent for two years. Now, I think that's because Julia Garner, who's the great actress who plays Kimi,

has largely been unavailable. So, you know, I'm grateful any time she can be on the show, but I felt it was a mistake to swing the season on her sudden reemergence. But deeper than that, what you're speaking to is the thing that worries me most about going into the last season, which is that they seem to have lost a little bit of the barometer of the character's inner emotional lives. And I continue to think that the biggest missed opportunity on the show for a number of seasons has been the idea that Philip loves America. That was present early on in the show. Remember he puts on the cowboy boots, so you see him taking Henry to hockey games.

there's something about America that appeals to him, and that was the divide between him and Elizabeth. Now we've gone on this place where Philip is getting more and more disturbed. He's getting darker. It's adding up. The toll is being taken on him is very present, which is fine. But he doesn't like anything, and none of them like anything. And so there's no balance.

We're losing our connection to these people because they are no longer people. There are these abstracts who shoot two elderly strangers point blank in the head and then get in a car and say, we should probably think about leaving. We're sort of all, we're lost at sea with this. That early thing where it sort of set up the possibility, and this is like a way more grandiose thing

than the show does ordinarily, but like pitting them against each other. Like he decides to say, he decides to cross over and actually be an American, whether, you know, as a spy for them or whatever, But that conflict I was really intrigued by this as you were. And, yeah, we've completely lost that at this point. Like, he's just, he's just dower.

You know, he's just depressed about everything. It's also very odd that, you know, the central, one of the central tensions in the show was meant to be Stan their neighbor and friend as the FBI agent who will inevitably bring them down. I, a year ago, if we were talking about this, I would have saluted the show for continuing to downplay that and let them live their lives and let them be friends. you know, not steering into the more obvious conflict.

But now Stan spent the year dating someone and playing racquetball. He literally accomplished nothing this year. And so I guess his discovery of this of what's going on is going to be crammed into the last few episodes, which might make for an exciting last few episodes. But all of a sudden, this is the nature of TV sometimes. Things that I was ready to say were brilliant are starting to look a little bit, a little bit wonky. So to sum up, where are you?

Where are you with a show in relation to other shows that you enjoy and to the TV landscape as a whole? And just, you know, how much vodka are you drinking at this point in hopes of getting Mojo back for next year? I'm more of a gin guy. I know that's not thematically appropriate. That really ruined my joke. Yeah, it's screwed the whole thing off. I apologize. You know, again, there's nothing that's going to stop me from watching the show at this point.

I do think that it was my favorite show on TV for several years there, you know, probably the fourth in the second, third, fourth season. That didn't justify, like justified. And I thought it aired really well with Justice. It was only a year or two, I think, that that was true, that they were both on the air at the same time. But I can't really explain why, but they really complimented each other well. I mean, I am sort of curious whether, I mean, now that you have some experience in working in television, writing on television, do you think that they're doing that two-year renewal and getting a little bit more attention, like, and just coming into this season with a different kind of expectation in a different end game,

like kind of screwed them up. Like they had sort of a pattern where they were going year by year and they didn't know if they were going to get renewed every time? No, because I think that the one thing that I have learned is that, you know, things are generally kind of hush, hush, wink, wink, people kind of know.

And I don't think they ever felt they were in jeopardy after the first season. I think that it was pretty clear that they were going to be fine. And I also know Joe and Joel, and they are very deliberate, very thoughtful guys who just, you know, you can see this in the best seasons they made, they don't respond to external events that, you know, that dramatically. And I think they were prepared to tell the story

they were going to tell. Maybe they only had five years of story. And so the two-year thing was like a gift in the sense that they get to keep working, but maybe a curse and that they didn't have that much. I don't know. But, and I hope I get a chance to talk to them about it because they're generally very open about this stuff. And, you know, they've made each season slightly different. So I would have, and because the nature of it, it's going to be different next year. but it's a head scratcher man and it and it's and you know I have to look I mean you're spared this right now

but I'm looking at Chris right now and he's just basically his eyes are just screaming I told you so except in Russian I never I would never do that to you you would do that to me well I think the truth is that by this time next year by the time of the premiere of the final season I will have forgotten you know

all that there is to know about this season which isn't very much obviously and like outside, you know, like, I, you know, nine months from now or what I was forgiven kind of situation. And I have to imagine that, like, yeah, like, these plot-wise or emotionally, like, things are going to have to accelerate from here. Like, they're going to have to do something. Yeah, the plus side. And so I think that's going to paper over whatever just happened. The plus side of nothing happening this year is that nothing happened this year.

So it's not like they have to undo anything for next year. They just pick up and do something better. Anyway, Rob, I thank you. Thank you for allowing me to talk about the Americans on the United States on. the watch. To the Americans fans out there, I'm sorry, we took time to do it when it was negative, but it's tough love. This is what American parenting should be like, right? You pay attention to your kids and you tell them when you're not doing well, and if they get into an elite prep school, you do not let them go. Thank you very much. Thanks, Rob. Later, Rob.

See you. Thanks, everybody for listening. We're out. We'll back on Monday. We'll talk Fargo and Twin Peaks and everything else to happen in pop culture over the weekend. Thanks for listening to guys. Today's show was brought to you by the new Spotify, podcast, Mogul, the Life and Death of Chris Lighty, produced by Gimlet Media and Loudspeakers Network. Mogul details the illustrious hip-hop career of Chris Lighty and his rise to success before his unfortunate and untimely end. This story is broader than just music. It's the story of the American dream.

Follow and listen to Mogul, the life and death of Chris Lady every week, starting April 27th on Spotify. When casting your Emmy votes this year, please consider season two of Lifetime's critically acclaimed Peabody Award-winning series, Unreal, which follows the behind-the-scenes drama of a hit reality dating show called Everlasting. Unreal is nominated in the following categories, Outstanding Drama Series, Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series for Sri Appleby's portrayal of Rachel Goldberg, and Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama Series for Constance Zimmer's role as Quinn King. Thank you for your consideration.