The Watch - Amy Landecker and the Critical Reception of 'Transparent' (Ep. 190)

Episode Date: September 30, 2017

The Ringer’s Andy Greenwald sits down with actor Amy Landecker to discuss her pathway into comedic roles, awards season, and the critical reception she’s received for her work on ‘Transparent.�� Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to the Watch, part of the Ringer podcast network. My name is Andy Greenwald. Chris Ryan, still on vacation, but we're thinking of him. Got a special episode for you today. Amy Landecker, one of the stars of Amazon's Golden Globe and Emmy winning series, Transparent. Stop by. We had a terrific talk. We talked a lot about season four Transparent, which is available on Amazon Prime Now. Also about her career, about the unique spirit of the show, and also about how the show is navigating political climate of today and a little bit more. Total pleasure to talk to Amy. So great to have her in here. As you'll see, we make a couple jokes about it. She knows from microphones because her dad is about to be inducted into the Broadcasting Hall of Fame. He's a Chicago rock and roll DJ. So she was very comfortable in the studio, and it was great to talk to her. Let's get right into it.

Here is my conversation with Amy Landecker from Transparent. We're canning. We're canning. I'm so happy to be joined by Amy Landecker, who is here only to talk about the radio industry. Because he didn't know I was an actor. No, but it turns out, so you're in show business. How's that going? It's going okay.

I can't believe it, but I seem to actually make a living. We should probably talk about that. I think only 2% of the union makes a living. I feel like we're we've arrived. You're part of the 2%. I'm part of the 2%. Yeah, forget the 98%. It's not just the country.

It's also sag after. Yeah. What's this coastal elite stuff? You guys fighting over scraps too. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think people do want to talk. They want to hear politics and they want to hear about Chicago Rock Radio in the 70s.

Yes. And we will get back to that. Yes. But I did want to talk about the new season of Transparent. Yes, that's probably why you had me here. It's not the only reason. I'm on a show that seems to matter, so we should talk about that. People like it.

Yeah, it's been kind of, I have to say, I feel like this season, and it's only been on a couple of days. Yes. People are freaking. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's because we're in like a new era. Yeah. Or, I mean, but personally, like we, you know, I don't, I know reviews can be good, bad, whatever, but I'm not really talking about that. I guess I mean more like you sense every. year sort of your the collective consciousness

about what you just put out. And we've all been talking to each other going, are you getting more than ever like, oh, this is the best season ever? And I think part of it is that people are so thirsty for something that feels aligned to their own beliefs and lifestyle

because the country has kind of kicked it back in the ass. And I also think it's because when you're at this point in the show people really know, where they are and they can kind of settle in a little bit. You know what I mean? Yes. I was going to ask you about the response to this season. I've watched the first few episodes. So if you're listening, no spoilers past the very beginning, I promise. And I'm really enjoying it.

And there's something about it that I'm enjoying that I thought was sort of specific to the season that I was curious your opinion on. There's a sort of looseness to the beginning of the season that struck me. And I found it very appealing. And for me, it was not just this majestic, brilliant boundary-pushing show that is still with us, that it still is. But in a way, it was almost an old-fashioned TV feeling of, hey, they're back. His family's back. My pals are back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the episodes, in the beginning anyway, seem to be swirling around larger themes in a very gentle way.

We're building to something, obviously. There's a, you know, Jill and her co-conspirators always have a nice sense of an arc to a season. And so there's an opening monologue that Alia Alia Shokat gives that I think obviously sets a tone for what's to come. Yes. But in general, I was finding it a very gentle and pleasant reentry, if that makes sense. Yes. I actually sort of had a very gentle and pleasant season, which was weird to watch. I mean, we definitely do get intense. You know, the show never stops that.

I think there's a real, I don't know, like, it's just, there's something about it wants, the show wants to make you laugh, cry and feel really uncomfortable and turned on all the same time. And that takes a lot of elements. And there's always a part where I, like, there's always this part where I'm watching where I'm like, uncomfortable. It's so hard. Even for you. Yes. Even for me.

You're on the show. You've read the scripts. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, they push, you know. And I think that's why, but you have to right now. How else do you make a point in the world? There's so much noise. You can't really be subtle.

But you also need some breaks. And I feel like that ease felt really good. And I feel like there's a little more breathing. Like there is a looseness I felt like this year. I do think it gets a little more serious as it goes along. I'm just finished. I actually haven't finished nine and ten. I'm up to eight.

So I haven't seen the whole season. So you're still in the dark. You have no idea. And I will say we shoot a lot of stuff that does. doesn't get used. So I really am in the dark. Like, I never really know what's, you know, we shoot a lot. And then they edit. And there's storylines that change and things that you think are going to happen. You go, oh, that's gone now. So I'm not absolutely 100% sure how we end. Do they do that for the same reason the Game of Thrones is shooting multiple endings?

No. Because you just, the paparazzi. Yes, that's what it is. We're trying to mislead our, no. It's because we're a very alive organism. Transparent is not a normal television show. And it, because it, it has an improvisational style while it's actually shooting that isn't just based in improv. It's actually like in editing, in storytelling, in what's in what episode. Like, Jill and the writers never stop until they're done editing. Like, we don't, we don't go to work and have the script and then shoot the script and then they edit the script. That's just not the way that. it's been. It's been, you know, they write and then they rewrite and then we rewrite and then

we do some stuff and decide that was the wrong direction and we go back and reshoot and do some other stuff. I mean, it's just like, it's very alive. So I'm not totally sure how we end up. But I definitely know from what I shot that I had like a very easygoing, normal sort of experience compared to years past. How do you feel about that? Although I was in a threesome half the time, so I'm not sure why I think that. But I think because Alia and Rob Hewbel, who I am with, were so pleasant and we're not miserable. Like we're exploring something together, but it's not really scary. Like I've been in other things and other seasons that Sarah was either really apprehensive about or triggered by or she was lying or she was cheating.

And this is actually the first time that she's trying to express herself in her sexual life without lying. And so she's actually kind of happy. I mean, it gets tripped up, of course, like everything does. Right. But in general, they're also really joyous people to work with, so it just wasn't very painful. I've noted when I was thinking about this, because as we discussed, I discovered midway through preparing that you were an actress.

Yes. I had to really change my notes drastically. But I did notice that on Transparent, you have often been partnered with professional funny people who are also great performers and great actors. And one of the joys of the show is that it gives people a chance to play both sides. But Laura Harden, Allie a shockette. Tignitaro.

Tick Natarro. Jason Manzuchus. Zooks. Yeah, Zooks. Rob Hegel. Who literally has a line this year that boundaries are how you teach people how to treat you. And I was like, well, we've gone to a whole new level when Manzukas has that line. Exactly.

You put it in that mouth. Yeah. Rob Hewbel, yeah, this whole season. How, as a, again, as I've just learned as an actress, how does that change the experience for you as a performance? How does that change the experience for you as a performer who you're playing off of on set? It's just so fun. I mean, I don't ever want to do. I came from really serious theater in Chicago.

Like, I was always a crack addict or the mother of an abducted child or both. I mean, there was just. If you're lucky, if I'm lucky, I mean, I did a lot of Tracy Letts stuff. And I just was part of a very hardcore theater scene. And, you know, it was amazing. I didn't realize until I got cast. Well, the first comedy I ever did, honestly, was the vagina monologues in Chicago. And I never even was ever part of anything that caused people to laugh.

And I was like, oh, my God, that's just like the greatest feeling in the world. And then I did a serious man when I turned like 40, you know, it changed this whole world for me because, like, Louis saw it. And then he hired me on Louis. And then, you know, Jeff Garland saw me on Louis and brought me in for curb. And, like, it just started. And then I became Paul Reiser's wife. and it just started to spin into comedy. And so for me, and I know a lot of people feel like transparent isn't a typical comedy or maybe even a comedy at all.

But what I think makes it so funny is she does and so brilliant is she uses like really profoundly funny people and puts them in very deep situations. And I think it just is such a brilliant idea, you know. Oh, nothing is more compelling dramatically to me than being made to feel slightly unstable. And the laughs come and then the stuff behind it comes. And I connect to that as a fan of television, but also the Judaism of the show. That's a big one for me too because the level of inappropriate comments or the joke coming, that's the wrong time for that joke. That's very familiar to me. Yeah, we're deeply Jewish.

We're often say people always talk about us being sort of a queer show, but we're like also the most Jewish show for me. Transparent is so Jewish. that sometimes I become uncomfortable. Yeah. You know, like, it's like hanging a muzzaza on your door in, you know, in the West Bank or something. Like, I just like it makes me, I can't believe that people are saying the quiet part loud. Yeah, yeah, totally. But I can't get enough of it.

Yeah, yeah. Which is amazing to me because if you're running the numbers on the Pfeffermans, it's not a high Jewish percentage in the cast. No, it's really funny. Well, first of all, Judith Light, who just looks like such a goya is like totally. Jewish, big time Jewish and Jeffrey's big time Jewish. But the kids are not. Gabby Hoffman. Now, how do you have a name like Gabby

Hoffman and not be Jewish? Let me tell you, she's been passing for years. I mean, she, that is the most Jewish name on the most Jewish-looking girl. She's not Jewish. Jay Duplas, Catholic, from New Orleans. So weird. What is a bearded Jew boy? I think if you took off the beard, maybe it would be clear. No, I'm telling you. No, he really

looks Jewish. Yeah, he does. And I have the most Jewish, and I'm only a quarter Jewish, my dad's father, but he escaped World War II. I feel very connected to that part of me. They're dominant genes, I think. Yes, indeed. And I feel like because Germany has made reparations to my family that I'm in fact Jewish. Oh, yeah, you're in.

Also, you've been on transparent. And I'm on transparent, yeah. But I'm Jewish, as they say. But as soon as you say the words standing order at Cantor's out loud, it's like saying Beetlejuice? Like you become Jewish. Yes. Yes. I agree. The show, and I say this again only as a fan and reading interviews

and sort of being aware of as the show is developed, it's unique to me in a lot of ways, but I think it's been especially unique in the way that it appears to have been transformational in the lives of people involved in the show, and transformational as an entity. You said a living organism, which I really

appreciate. I think that's accurate. I think there's a model for TV shows where the first season you're trying to figure it out, Second season, if you're lucky, you figure it out, and he'd just do the thing you're good at. Transparent seems to reject that in a lot of ways. It's true. I'm waiting for, like, everyone to be wildly upset with us, but so far everyone's willing to come along. Yeah, and to read interviews, you know, making the show has changed.

Jill, in a lot of ways. Yes. It's the way the show has approached the issues that it covers has changed and representation. The freaking country has changed. The country has changed. So let's make this about you. Yeah. How have I changed?

Yeah, how has this show changed you? And I don't even mean necessarily politically just in your life. It's massive. It's like a tectonic shift. I feel like before I got on, well, it's interesting. In some ways it sort of brought me back to something, which was I used to work at the AIDS Foundation of Chicago as a day job. I used to fundraise for the LGBTQ community. I have this affinity and I don't know where it comes from and it's not like I'm gay

or anyone in my family that I know of is gay. Trans. I do have some bi relatives. But like I don't, it's been a weird calling, if you will. Part of also being from the theater community, it's an incredibly gay community. And I've just always felt very connected to this tribe. And Jill is from Chicago and her and her sister are from Chicago and had a theater company, me and my sister from Chicago had a theater company with my sister.

Jill grew up listening to my dad. You know, I, we have, because he was a successful in popular radio, T-J, not because he was lecturing her. No, no, he's a rock and roll disc jockey in Chicago at WLS. Soon to be inducted in the Hall of Fame. Soon to be inducted in the Radio Hall of Fame, November 2nd in Chicago. And along with Sean Hannity, which is a tragedy, and I don't know how to deal with that, but I'll figure it out. That's going to be an awkward night. I'm going to make some noise.

But, you know, I feel like there's something about a coming home when you, because and Alexander Billings, who's on our show, I've known from the Chicago theater community for many, many years. There's something about like taking the old part of my life, which was, you know, Chicago and theater and, you know, the AIDS Foundation. And now it's like on this level where I am able. to have like a job that actually has created a stability as an actor, which is a very strange experience that very few actors get to have. And it has given me a peace of mind.

And I mean, little things have changed, which are really superficial and stupid. But I'm like watching season four and I realize like I'm, I mean, this is really stupid. But hey, like, I'm, the heaviest I've ever been as an actor on camera. I used to think like I had to be really. skinny to be an actor. Right. That was part of the rules. Yes. I had to look a certain way. I had to present my, I wore a lot of fake eyelashes and fake tan. And I still do for a red carpet. Like, I'm still very girly that way, but like I would go to auditions. Like, it was like, it was like I would go to casting calls

at NBC and be told to wear a little cut top. And like, it was a very, I was a very, like, driven, wanting something, but feeling like if I wasn't a certain way, I wasn't going to get it. What the show has taught me. And, and, and, look, look, I'm lucky, so I'm not, I can't say this is a universal rule, but like there's an odd power actually when you don't, this is sort of what the show's about, right? It's like, what if you don't play the game? Yeah. Like, what happens to your life then?

Like, what if you just are yourself? Whatever the game, meaning like, yeah, if I still want to like, like Gabby Hoffman is disinterested completely in like hair dye, shaving her armpits, any of that stuff. And that's amazing. And I wanted to be like her when I met her and I was wishing I was more like that. And then I just realized it's so just figure out what you want to be in this. But what I don't want to be in this is like a woman who's starving herself, who's pulling my skin every direction I possibly can, who's thinking that if I get older, you know, I'm going to be 48 next week. I talk about my age.

I like to talk about my age. I don't want the world to tell me I can't talk about my age. I'm so fucking tired. Are we allowed to swear? Oh, yeah. Of like the feeling that I, and I still succumb to it. Trust me. I mean, my girlfriend and I were texting, not my friend, who's a, my friend, who's a.

woman who we were I was watching you know an episode that I felt I couldn't help it like my my my my the programming just kicked in I'm like I'm fat and middle aged it was just like oh my God look at myself how could I let that and then I was like that is what is that message where did that come from because certainly not my boss on this show certainly the show isn't about that and why are people so in love with this show because it's allowing them to feel like you don't have to be that way, right? You don't have to be female or male. You don't have to be gay or straight. You don't have to be black or white. Like, you don't have to be thin or fat. You get to be whatever the fuck you want to be, right? That's what we're about. And yet I still have, you know, we were like, she said, why do we do that to ourselves? You know, I've got like 48 years of like ads and magazines and a culture. You know, now a president who values women if they look a certain way, you know. So, so it's been a lot about accepting myself. in a way that I feel like, I mean, I'll still like, like I said, fall prey to insecurities, but don't let it win. I'm not going to like take that to work.

I'm not going to say like, will you make me look prettier? Like, can I have more makeup or can I'm wearing? Like, I'm not going to allow that part. And then, you know, on a personal level, I feel like Sarah did some things that I could relate to in terms of not being genuine in my life and not knowing what the hell I wanted and hurting people in the process of that. And it really was a wonderful place for me to exercise those demons. And I feel like I've kind of come to a whole new, like now for me, like being a present parent and like work is not the most important thing. Of course, I have the luxury of a job, so it's easier. But also in my personal life, I am very calm and very settled.

And I can't say that I've ever felt that way. And I feel like this process allowed that to happen for me. That's wonderful. and I think rare. Yeah. I think he said jealously. But I think you're also, you've nailed something about the show that is so powerful and destabilizing. And I think not a negative way.

But the psychological effect of the show is basically to say, what if there really aren't rules? What if these rules are arbitrary? What if that voice is inherited or borrowed or rehearsed from somewhere else, then what? And I think one of the more remarkable transitions of the show, and this loops back to what I was saying. at the beginning about this new season is that in a TV show, unlike in a movie or a play, you can have the inciting incident, you can have the dramatic rejection of norms or, you know, the crisis in the family, many crises when it comes to the peppermines. And then what?

And the show lives in the and then what place. And I think that's where the best drama comes from. I mean, it's kind of amazing, right? The biggest secret is said at the end of the pilot. Exactly. It's we're not, that's not the reveal of this. That's the inciting incident. And then the cracks just keep going.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's dramatically so rich, but also, you know, as an audience, that's where things get icky. That's where it becomes uncomfortable to watch. Right, right. And as you said, even you have trouble watching. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's true. But I wonder if part – I wanted to ask you about your performance specifically, and I wonder if it loops into what we're talking about.

Because in watching the show, one of the great joys of watching your performance is how it is never off. And I know it sounds like I'm saying you're like in a pageant and you're waving. What I mean is in every scene you appear to be 100% alive and present. Oh, that's nice. And thinking specifically of this new season, there's a great opening scene in the premiere of a brunch, of a Nash. The cantors pick up at this time at Josh's austere palace and Silver Lake. And it's cut in a very interesting way and it's very artistic and it's sort of everyone's personal experience is being tracked. That's not Sarah's scene in quotes, but in the...

every moment when watching just you, you are alive to what everyone else is doing. You are alive in this family and you can sort of read the same reactions. Everyone's reacting to the same things. That seems like obviously the goal for acting in general, but particularly on a set like this, on a show like this, it would seem to be crucial. Thank you for saying that. I've never felt more free in a job. I don't know what, like my, one of the,

my boyfriend says this thing about being innocent to the moment. And sometimes I feel like, to be honest with you, I mean, I'm going to be totally honest. Like, I'm not the one. I've never gotten a nomination for the show, right? I think everybody else has. And there's been a discussion amongst everybody because, you know, people seem to like me, even in the cast, very, very kind, very, very kind, you know. And what is it what is it that's not causing people to?

to vote for me. And part of me honestly feels like I don't really deserve to be voted for because I'm not really creating a performance so much as I'm trying to just like show up and be free. And I feel like maybe that's also why it's not triggering a certain response because it's like I'm really my goal with this. And I don't know how it started, except I do think part of it is Jill's sort of, you know, emotional direction. And Jim Frona, who's our DP, he shoots emotionally. And, like, we improv a lot off of what we have, which is incredible writing. And then we're allowed to take it where we want to take it.

But I just sort of, and I do think coming from a theater background, like, I don't think about how I look while we're shooting. I don't think about what I'm wearing. I never look at myself. I won't even look at myself in the mirror when I go to the bathroom between takes. I don't want to be associated. I don't want to be orientated to that. I just want to be with the. these people. And so I think that's, I think I've done that successfully, but I've seen stuff like this

year where I'm just like, no, I don't think it's good enough because I don't think I'm actually doing enough work behind it. But it's probably hard to watch yourself and I'm not going to, you know, and that's neither here and or there. If I watch myself and I thought it was amazing, you should hate me anyway. But, but maybe that's, but that's what I did. For me, it's like, I just don't, I don't do a lot of preparation, you know, I want to just be, she's probably the closest to me. behaviorally, too. Not situationally. I'm not as nuts as Sarah. I mean, people are constantly projecting on me like that I must be very, you know, I don't know, progressive. I'm not. But I'm open. I will say I'm an open person. And I think that Sarah is, and I'm sort of playing

kind of my 13-year-old self, like I'm playing Sarah at an adolescent stage, if that makes sense. Yes. I had a question about that, but specifically to the part you're playing and the sort of journey that you've taken Sarah on. In relation to some of the other characters, it is less, I'm trying to think of the right word for this, targeted. Does that make sense? Other characters, certainly within,

not just within episodes, but within seasons, have had a goal that they are shooting for, whether it's professionally or romantically, situationally, transitionally, I mean, a stated goal. Sarah has these wants and this larger unhappiness that doesn't have the same guideposts.

And I wonder it doesn't seem to have, much like life, a set destination. I wonder if that's sort of a way to answer the question as to why it's not notice as much, but I wonder what that does to you as a performer because you're staying on this path and trusting in this path, but I don't know what you have to orient yourself to. The only stuff that honestly, if I was just being honest, that scary is the sex stuff. Like I'm pretty open emotionally to playing. I mean, raging was tough. There was a couple of raging scenes last season.

Raging anger, not beating up the beat at a rave. No, yeah. I miss that. Raging on people is hard. I would go home and, you know, be very depleted by that. But I felt, I was reading about Mother with Jennifer Lawrence and the Daronov. Aronovsky both were described in this article as being able to go in and out of trauma without bringing it with them. I actually feel like I'm gotten pretty good at that.

Like I don't get – I've had a very incredible experience shooting this show where, I mean, except for the first season where I was going through my own personal stuff. And I was also terrified and didn't know what the hell was going on. But once that settled – And you're starring in a show from the place that makes paper towel. deliveries. Yes, exactly. It was all very disorienting. I was, you know, had just gotten divorced, just moved to L.A. Oh, wow. Just been on, just had a huge breakup with someone post-divorce and just was like, I didn't know what, I didn't know what I was doing here. And then I landed in this show that I didn't know, it was like some strange fever dream. So that was tricky. But

ever since then, I've really had a wonderful time and not felt. But then I'll tell you what's weird is the release dates. Like, this is when I get weird. Because I realize you're going to watch it. And like when I'm shooting it, I don't think about that. I don't think about that someone's going to see it. And then I get self-conscious. And then I think about everything I did.

And then I think, oh, my God, I can't believe I did all that. And then everyone tells me how courageous I am and it makes me feel terrible. Why? Well, because courageous can also feel like people are saying, I could never do that so you're crazy. Yeah. How can you be so crazy that you would do that? Yeah. And also it's code for you look so terrible and real how amazing that you're willing to do that.

No, that's the voice in your head, I don't know. I've had people say to me, what are they doing on that show to make you look so bad? It's incredible. You're so much better looking in person. And I know they mean that as a compliment. But honestly, all you think is like I'm unacceptable. I mean, Lena Dunham said the same thing. People are, I want to say to Lena Dunham, you changed my life. You're so incredible. And I know what she's going to take that is is like, you're not typically attractive. Thanks for share. your body. That's what I was trying to say earlier. You can't have it both ways. You want to be a feminist. You want to be free. And yet you still have a little voice in your head that wants to look like the perfect person. I mean, you know, I'm not immune to that.

Yeah. You want to break free of the cycle. But then by praising you're aligning your thinking with that cycle. Exactly. Exactly. We're caught. Yeah. It's catch two.

But yeah, now is when I feel the most unease. I've talked a lot and written about the way the binge model and the dumping the season effects. Yeah. It's like it's fucking done. I mean, half the people who hear this will already be done. Yes. I mean, that's the other thing. It feels like this gross, you know, like 24-hour rave party that now we're just all hung over from.

Because you shoot it, you promote it, you live it, you breathe it, you do all this work. And then it's just like literally like sucked up into people's heads over a 48-hour period. And the next thing they're saying is, when's the next season? I'm like, we haven't even started. It's just in the content library now in the cloud. And I miss the weekly. I do too. You could be part of a conversation for longer.

I don't like it. I don't like that either. I wondered about that from a performer perspective. I hate it. I really do. I feel like it's so anticlimactic and disappointing. But, I mean, it's like, I want to, yeah, I want people to feel it. I want, how do you feel something if you, I mean, then again, I love binging. I mean, I'm a great binger, but.

It feels very fefferminny, actually, to sort of overshare and have been very emotionally demanding of someone over a very intense short amount of time. Yes. Totally. I can't, but I will say, I can't binge transparent. You can't. I cannot. It's too hard.

It's too deep. That's because you have a brain. No, other people have brains. I'm not saying. No, but you probably really are processing it. It's built in a way, and I think they've gotten, I think Jill and her team have gotten actually better at being creative about this. Like this season, the episode breaks are surprising.

And they are enough to leave you on, but they're also enough to keep you going. Yeah, yeah. Which I appreciate. There's still episodes. which matter to me. Yeah. But even so, I need to step back. Yeah.

It's like visiting your family. Yeah, yeah. Honestly. I'll use eye statements like I was taught in college. Like visiting my family. Maybe not yours. Your father, I met. He seemed like a lovely man.

That was a microaggression. Yeah, it was a little bit, right? So just pivoting forward, there is another season at least for Transparent to come. Yeah, we got picked up for five. I know Jill is stepping down as showrunner. Yeah, that's not really true. She's been saying on the press junket, that's fake news. Yeah, I was wondering about that because I can't imagine.

No, we have someone coming in. She was really not there as showrunner technically last year. I mean, she's there. She'll always be there. And in fact, I mean, I wrote her this email about there was a feeling amongst the cast that we wanted her there more. And when I watch the show, I see her in every storyline, in every frame. And actually, I have to say, too, I feel like. I'm self-conscious because I've been told by some people that Jill is now non-binary,

and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be using the pronouns. So I apologize. I haven't actually had a conversation with them about that, which I need to, to find out how they want to be discussed. Sounds like another email needs to be written. Yes, another email needs to be written. So every time I say she, I'm like, I'm not sure that's correct anymore. Yeah, there's a lot of change.

I think that Allie's storyline, if you want to know what's going on with Jill, is probably most aligned there. As a viewer, I think that's a easy thing to do. I mean, although I've had some people think that it's mean, I'm like, I'm some parts of what's going on, but more especially spiritually and intellectually and emotionally. Allie's really, especially this year. I don't feel right. Something's wrong. I'm in the wrong place. What the hell's going on?

I mean, I think being a part of this like cultural revolution and then having Trump get elected was so shocking that there's this just lack of knowing or wanting to play any game on any level. In fact, Jill said on the Daily Show that the non-binary is really just for, like, them to annoy people, which I think is actually perfectly valid, amazing. But, yeah, sorry, what were we talking about? I got off on the binary. Just the show going forward with. Oh, yeah. So someone's coming in because Jill's also become quite a movement. She's a mogul.

Yeah, they're a mogul. They're a mogul running. I don't know. We'll figure that out after. Jill is a mogul. Yes, let's say Jill. That's good. Jill is a mogul.

speaking publicly making art and, you know, they had, I Love Dick. I don't know what's going on with that now, but there's always a million projects going on at Toppull. So, but technically there will be no difference. We will feel no difference. And Jill's sister, Faith, also writes on the show. And it's just a deeply personal story of their family. So there's no way. And I don't, there's no way to do it without them.

Yeah. And I actually felt this goes back to my first comment. Like the show appears to be settled into something. It's never going to be a traditional show. Right. Thank goodness. Yeah. But some traditional TV DNA can be nice with the sense of like we're just going to keep going.

Yeah. There's always someplace else to keep going. Well, I'm most heartened by the fact that there's a lot of discussion of it, you know, at least seven seasons and maybe beyond that. And I feel like we really are only halfway. And then a movie. Yes. And a musical. I think they're actually making a musical.

That I could see. Yeah. No, that's for real. I believe that. Broadway musical that Faith is working on. That is a transition, and I apologize for my cavalier misuse of the word, but that is a transition I can see quite easily. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Well, Jesus Christ Superstar, right, is like a huge theme this year. Yes. Yeah, the musical theater. There's certain tribes, not just the chosen tribe that are very well represented in the DNA of the show. That's right. Before I let you go, you mentioned funny or die. Oh, yeah.

Which you didn't know about. No, well, again, I do no research. No, it's good. I thought I had an amazing idea, it turns out I did. There you go. I wasn't speaking of really funny, incredibly funny people. Carrie Aisley, who is an improviser on our show from, she plays my life coach in season two and the woman who blocks my entrance to the board of the temple in season three.

I walked out of the scene I had with her in season two and said, that's one of the funniest improvisers I have ever met in my whole life and I just want to see them do more of that. So I had, and Sarah Pfefferman, the character I play, won like a bunch of sessions with her at a school raffle. So I thought, wouldn't it be amazing to throw, to have Sarah give those sessions away to other Pfeffermans and put them into session with her and I was going to direct this and I pitched it to Funny or Die in Amazon and they said, if I could, could get the Emmy nominees, which was Jeffrey, Catherine, and Judith to participate.

They would pay for it. And they all said yes. I ended up making like 11 shorts. The last one was released Thursday with Michaela Watkins. I have Tignitaro. I have Malora Hardin. I have Rob Pheubel. I have basically I have Alexander Billings.

I basically have I have Jay. I have the entire cast of transparent in session with Carrie Aisley in little three-minute shorts. And you directed these. I directed them all. and edited the mall with my editor over there who's amazing. And funnier die has been amazing, I have to say. And it was absolute joy. Our DP came in and shot it for me.

Our costumer came in and dressed everybody. Our set decorator came and made the set. We used Topol's offices. I did it over two days over the summer. And there wasn't a single person except for Jason Manzukas who said no to me. No, he was out of town. I still. That goes against the.

improvisers code. Yeah, exactly. Let me tell you something. As someone who has invited him to take part in things, he has literally never said now. He's like, I'm out of town, but he also said something very, very true. And I really struck. He said, I told him how many people had said, yes, he goes, I'm not surprised at all. I've never worked on a show with that much goodwill in my life.

And I just want to make one sort of political comment here after what just happened this weekend with the NFL. The reason that those owners finally sided and other players is because, you know, Because when it's personal, when you know someone, you have a very different relationship to it. And that's what this show, when you say, how did it change me? Like, I am personally close to many trans people now. Their well-being and their protection is personal to me. That's why you saw that happen this weekend.

And I think that we have to make the fans aren't, it's not personal. They're like booing across this, you know, because it's not personal. They don't, they are not friends with those people. You have to know people's stories. You have to know them in order to understand. understand them. And that's what makes the show so powerful. There should be, it probably is a word in German for the, that phenomenon. Yeah, there's like schadenfreude, but why isn't there?

Exactly. There's so many good words. But this phenomenon that we see again and again where a, and I'm, I don't actually, I'm not going to apologize for a painting with a certain brush here, but when a Republican political person or in office, office holder suddenly takes a more traditionally liberal stance on an issue because my daughter is, my son is. Well, wasn't it Cheney's, was it Cheney's daughter? Yeah, I always say that's why we have same-sex marriage. Yeah. I was so grateful that Caitlin's a Republican.

I want there to be, I don't think she's done any freaking good, but at least we'll open eyes. There at least she goes in and talks to Republicans about trans issues. You did see some trans senators come out and speak about trans people in a way like Orrin Hatch for God's sake. Not trans senators, although I appreciate you saying that. No, not trans senators, sorry. Republican senators, there will be Sunday. But even using the word trans correctly. Even speaking about this was so new, you know, but it's because someone in the family.

Yes. Your daughter had a mixed race, you know, mixed race kid and now you love, you know, African Americans. You know, your nephew is trans. So now you understand that it's like, but it has to be personal. And I don't actually hold it against people who can't affect change in their own lives without that access. That's how we learn anything. Exactly. So this is a small part of that. But, you know. I agree. My biggest, in many ways, one of the largest stories. from this weekend or things that I think deserves the most attention is exactly that.

When the former NFL coach Rex Ryan gets on a pregame show and he says, I voted for this guy. What the heck is this coming from? These aren't the players. He's not talking about the league I know. It's like, well, first of all, who did you think you were voting for? Right. But as soon as he talks about your house. Right.

Well, and people were very upset. I mean, a lot of my liberal friends even like, screw them. You know, where were they when he was calling Mexicans rapists? I'm like, they don't care until it's personal to them. The big, the thing that has to happen is how do we make things personal to people who don't understand them. I mean, it has to be that way. It doesn't surprise me. I think it's maybe short-sighted and unfortunate. And there are people with like big hearts who get more beyond their own immediate experience. But that's actually not typical, you know, particularly of white

men in our country. Sorry, no offense. But, you know, it's like if you haven't been, if you haven't been otherized, it's hard to identify with that issue. It's like you're saying, oh, you're, you're, you know, a millionaire sports guy. What do you have to complain about? Well, I am also like a successful middle-aged, you know, actress. That doesn't mean I don't understand the plight of the statistics around me and how rare I am and have no identification for people who weren't as lucky as I am. But if you never had that, you can't understand it. Which I think, and forgive me if I'm trying to tie too need a bow on it,

but I think that's one of the great gifts of a show like Transparent, which is expressly a political show, but it is a political show solely through empathy, art, and emotion. We don't even talk about Trump this season. And everyone wanted to know what we were going to say. His name is never spoken. We don't talk about the election. It is political in its very nature.

Yeah, but just by existing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And metaphor. And, you know, a much spirit, much more deeply. I mean, the whole idea of Israel, Palestine is about binary, is about blue versus red, is about separation, is about borders, boundaries. I mean, they're brilliant about taking these very,

personal things and giving them like a broader context this year. So yeah, that's, that's our little, that's her little bow. It's a good bow. Tied up. And I do think a nomination is coming for this podcast. I think, I think you were the standout performer today. Thank you. And I think that we should submit this. Do you have an award that you could just make for me? The guys in the next room have been working with aluminum foil and glitter. It doesn't have to be anything. I'll take it. You deserve it. We were going to give the podcast guest award two minutes. Dukas. I want to say one thing about your podcast, though, recently that I listened to the post-admys.

Here's what's interesting about art. I'm sorry, I know we're done. You can edit this later. This isn't live, right? No. So I can say whatever I want. There was some discussion about a handmade's tale. And it's just interesting me about art.

To me, that is the greatest show of this year. I devoured it. And her performance is so unbelievable that it was like undeniable. But you have, like, people on your pockets going, I wasn't that into it after season. Sitting in that chair. Yeah, she's good. So that's what's interesting me about art. And when people don't vote for me, it's like I understand like I might appeal to you,

but I might not speak to somebody else. And it doesn't mean that I'm crap. No. That's the takeaway. Certainly can come up when you're in everyone's feeling bad for you. You're like, well, I guess nobody likes me. But it's just like it's art, you know. But to me, she was shoe in.

I mean, I obviously don't know what happened at Game of Thrones was in the mix. I agree. I think that I think she. And I love the crown more than. anything like I really love the crowd but her performance the I you know people go well I don't know how to tell someone's good at acting how can you tell I'm like well I don't know what I will tell you about Elizabeth Moss is if you want to see something unbelievable the behavior of her life before the you know the transition if we're going to keep using that and and that contrast that

performance contrast of like past scenes and present scenes is so beautifully done I think she is the MVP of television I think that what she's capable of doing internally. And I'm not just saying that because we share a PR person. I was going to mention it just for the stake of full disclosure. But that's not why you're saying it. That's why you're both on my podcast. Because Erica takes pity on me. That's so funny. But no, I mean, I said this to her as well. Like what she can do nonverbally and her

ability to be alive in nothing but trauma in that show is outrageous. I think the point that we were discussing about the show and that, you know, your mileage may vary with the show itself was I felt that the show, especially throughout that first season, felt slightly, and I don't know if this is accurate, noted. As in people saying, well, we are making a show about a hellish dystopia that it suddenly feels very, very real. Let's end with a pop song. Let's end each episode with a you get them, you go get him girl, kind of. I wonder if that's true.

I would be very curious to actually. And I don't know if those notes were explicit from Hulu or if those were just like TV brains. We've been working in this for a while. We've got to sweeten the pill a little bit to get people hooked on what is very heavy. And so for me, tonally, I felt a little. I will say that's the one part of it I didn't enjoy that much. It's interesting. You point that out.

That was the thing. No, I did feel a little taken out. And I felt like that was also, I don't know who suggested this, but, you know, it's streaming. So they were like, well, we got to get you to episode three. We know we just circumcise this woman, but we have to get you to watch the next one. So we're going to have a voice over. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think if you talk to Lizzie about it, or certainly Erica, your shared publicist, there's thinking of like, well, you need to, like we were saying with comedy and drama, you need to have some release. Release and they have to still be June, the character has to be alive. Yes. Or else what are we watching this for? I can't be nihilistic. But my opinion about that show is I'm very eager to see the second season now that they've been validated and they know what they're doing. Yeah. If they can start, if they can become more fully what they are.

What's fascinating about it, too, is that it's in development and being made before Trump is elected. I mean, I was in Beatrice at dinner before Trump was elected, and it becomes so relevant, and it's creepy because you just don't, you have no idea. I mean, it's weird that Jill was making this show when Caitlin was beginning to transition. I find all that stuff so fascinating. I think the most amazing artists are the ones who are weather veins. Yes. Yes. What is that?

We talked about this right after the election. I just got chills when you said that. But it's so weird. They're picking up some frequencies that were not. Yes. We talked about this on the podcast. It's predictive. The Tribe Called Quest album.

came out the week of the election, and it feels so deeply post-election in its spirit and what it's saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. It's very weird. It's a weird time.

Yeah. Boy, that way. We had a good bow. Yeah, and then we just fucked it up. Now it's all untied and messy. But that's like transparent. There it is. Watch Transparent on Amazon.

Thank you, Amy.