The Watch - ‘Andor’ Episodes 7-9: ‘Star Wars’ Goes Full ‘Jason Bourne.’ Plus, ‘Thunderbolts*.’

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

Chris and Andy break down Episodes 7-9 of ‘Andor’ Season 2. They talk about how Tony Gilroy’s attention to detail is really paying off in this set of episodes (8:26) and how Episode 9 was basically a 'Bourne' movie (39:21). Then they discuss ‘Thunderbolts*,’ which is actually kind of … good (55:12)? Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio from the mid-rim network. It's Andy Greenwald. Listen, I got to go to the Vatican planet. New Pope.

I got to go cover it. Breaking news in the studio. Look at us. Yeah. I mean, when this episode comes out, I think people will be like, they'll already be like, I'm over this Pope.

Do you think they're going to milkshake duck the Pope? Is that what you're suggesting? So he went to Nova? Yeah. Does he flop too? There it is. Look at that. A little bit of housekeeping.

Listen to us and watch us on Spotify or watch us on the ringer dash TV YouTube channel. Email us at the watch at Spotify.com. Follow us on Instagram at the watchpod underscore. I have a programming node. Oh, nice. Next week's first episode. So usually we publish on Mondays and Thursdays. Our next week's first episode will publish Tuesday night after the last three episodes of Andorra.

Why? Why would we do that? Because we will be joined by Tony Gilroy. Whoa. You're saying that with a certainty that suggests it's already happened. So Tony will join us to talk about the end of this season, the entire series. I would say it's Endor, but that's actually a planet with Ewox. Whatever granola bar you just ate is giving you. It's hidden.

Funny energy. So yes, next week we will publish episodes on Tuesday and Thursday. I think the Tony interview will take up an entire episode for us. So we will talk about our feelings about Andor without the guy who wrote Andor sitting not sitting next to us, but on Zoom, on Thursday. And we'll also address a couple other shows that we have let slip through our fingers. That's a shame. Today on the pod, and or 7 through 9.

Yeah, I think we should do that. Season 2. Asterix, because the asterix means we're also talking about Thunderbolts. Yes, good. Because young Greenwald took himself to an AMC, treated himself. I think it was a regal. To a little Marvel Cinematic Universe. I took myself to the theater where the Grand Lank

staff watched Jack Reacher with Tom Cruise together. Is that? 14 years ago. Down on Olympic? Mm-hmm. No shit. Yeah. How's it going?

How's it looking in there? You know, it's a little bit DMZ on the inside, but a little MZ on the outside right now, I would say. But I was, I was cozy. Okay. Me and my. No playoff basketball down there, so maybe that's why. It was a little ghost town. I'm getting a little touchy about it.

I can tell. You've been watching a lot of teams you hate play each other. Where do you want to start? Because we've been talking a lot about Andorris. We could talk about Thunderbolts first, or we can go into Go into Gorman. I think we should go into Gorman. I do one. Do you think, Kai, can we do one quick digression just to start?

I just wanted to get your thoughts on this. I'm coming at you cold here. I'm coming at you hot. I read an article today. It's not TV-related at all. I've been with you for most of your waking hours today. Are you sure you read an article today? I'm going to stop you on that.

My waking hours begin pretty early these days. The athletic, the sports news site, New York Times now subsidiary, ran a piece where they basically assigned one of their writers to consume the same amount of coffee that Detroit Lions Dan Campbell consumes every day, which I believe is like two, I can get the facts, but then why would I let the facts get in the way of a good story? Basically like two large coffees with two additional shots of espresso in each. This is called a black eye. and he drinks two of those

Every morning. That's my question. And I wanted to know if you, I mean, I guess I have a couple of questions. One, if you approve of this sort of journalistic Hunter S. Thompson daredevilry in the year of our Lord 2025. Two, if this is a regime that you could follow

or if it would be okay for you to attempt even once. And then I would like to follow up by saying, I feel like the truth was not, was hidden from us. In terms of what it did to this writer? He's like, I started to feel a little buzzy, wanted some food as I choked down the last coffee. Little did I know. Like, I don't know if I could. I'd be up for three days. No, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no, running diary maybe? I mean, I think something would have been running with that much coffee, is my point.

Yeah. I just feel like it was not very honest. And I wondered how you would do with, generally, I think stunts are fun, you know, like, I think that we probably overindulged in them at a certain point in the internet where it was like, I'm eating all of the Fridays menu, you know, and, TGI Fridays, by the way. Not Fridays. the canceled late night program? What do you tell you? And then on top of that, I guess there are some

some HR violations involved with speeding up someone's heart rate to that extent. But it sounds like a really fun story. I suppose I would really like to know where that guy is at now. That's the thing. Like is he playing safety for the lines?

That's my thing. I'm like also, it's weird that we're like, man, this guy is a, this coach, Dan Campbell, what a fountain of energy and he loves his guys and he'll defend them. I'm like, also, he's a little bit like, what's your name,

Rosanna Arquette with the adrenaline shot in her heart every day? Well, Uma gets the shot. Oh, I'm sorry, that's right. They'd give him the shot, thank you. Yeah. Rosanna's just like, this is awesome. This is another example of why my podcast, The Watchables, where I watch famous movies once 20 to 30 years ago and then talk about them just

in depth is a failure and yours is a winner. All right. So you don't, how would you do, though, personally? I don't drink a lot of caffeine. I know. that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I like a big 16 ounce coffee in the morning. You're a one coffee guy.

And then if I'm feeling needy, I might have a green tea or a Coke. But I also have two to three milligrams of nicotine constantly in my mouth. You know what I mean? So it's just... It's a different journey. That's my equation. I've never wanted to have a mic and hear more than this moment. But all right, we'll have to come back.

All right. Anyway, I think we should do Andor first to answer your question because the caffeine's hitting. I had a couple black eyes. this morning. And then we could talk about Thunderbolts, which I am eager to talk about. Okay. So Andor, obviously, is thrown into another gear with these episodes.

Spoilers for episodes 7 through 9. These were written by Dan Gilroy and directed by Janusz Metz, who my favorite work by him is a bunch of episodes he did on 0-000, which is a show. Andy and I were huge champions of. It came out during COVID on Amazon Prime, and is still one of my favorite global crime sagas,

and it's just in a remarkably underrated piece of television. He directed, I think, the middle block of those after Stefano Salima's first two. So, anyway, Messenger, Ever been to Gorman? Sorry, Messenger, Who Are You? And Welcome to the Rebellion are the three episodes we're going to be talking about today. The first two are, I think, can be viewed somewhat as a piece because it's essentially the lead-up to and after, not even aftermath, the actual Gorman massacre.

It's a canonical event in Star Wars, but one that had not necessarily been sort of, obviously never told before, I don't think, on screen. Also a little bit of confusion, I think, even among the super fans, because there are canonically two massacres. The first one... When Tark and lands a cruiser on some dudes,

yeah, not to make light of it, but that's just a hell of way to go. In which I have done... I've been doing a little research in the backwaters of Wikipedia, and I think there was some... when there was some implication or some assumption that season two of Andor would be about Gorman in some capacity.

And then when the trailer dropped, I think some people thought that they were going to have to deal with CGI Moff Tarkin, his parking issues in the season. And I thought it was just another example of Tony artistically working with the clay that he was handed. Sure. To acknowledge that, make the memorial for that event. And then be like, and again. And then guess what? Yeah.

So it's essentially about the empire is moving in with this mining equipment and ground forces in an effort to get this mineral out of the ground in Gorman that they need for their energy plan, their energy independence plan. So that's what they're calling it. That's what they're calling it. It places a two green group of imperial soldiers at the front lines of a protest that's happening at the Gorman Memorial Plaza. And a riot breaks out. Can I ask you? I'm sorry to stop you.

I just want to track, and I wonder if some of our viewers had this felt this same way. Now, we are on record now that we are big believers in, uh, enjoy this show twice. You know, this, this is a watch and rewatch show. And in a lot of the details are made a lot clear upon second viewing. But were you at any point unclear about the plan? Because as Cyril says, how long have you known? What are we doing here? Yeah, I mean, I think I skipped ahead a little bit going straight into the massacre. Seven, I think does a good job of setting the scene somewhat and also indicating the various levels of in the dark, these different factions on the Empire side especially are in.

So Debrae obviously is present on Gorman. She understands a lot of what's going on, but is not in charge of the schedule. Cyril thinks he's there for one thing and finds out it's another thing. And then obviously there's a lot of, I wouldn't say ambiguity, but there's confusion, especially on that first pass of watching the episode, where you're like, okay, this guy just ran in after Cassian has said that the plaza is closed,

this guy ran in and said the plaza's open. Is he an agent for the empire to try and get these people to go? You know, there's been these mistakes. The gore are green, but they've now been at it for a year. I guess let me ask you broadly about this block of episodes. I think you probably would take seven and eight separate from nine. Because nine is much more about Mon, the Senate, her escape from Corrassine. So let's start with the first two. What did what did you think? I mean, these are, this is exceptional television. This is the promise of the show made, made reality, just put on our screen. It is, I can't stress enough how thrilling it is to see something that is cumulative, that builds over time, that every, you know, to quote the wire where every,

every piece matters, right? That, that all of Tony's attention to detail here with like the cultural history of these people, the political history of revolutions. All of this is building towards a conflagration that happens in this episode and you realize almost, I mean, if you're paying a lot of attention, you realize it sooner, but you could be just learning on some level

with Cyril that the empire's plan was to pour as much gasoline over as much of this plaza as possible and then light the match. That that was always the goal. And the levels of tragedy are so remarkable because each one is tracked and each one is

emotionally true and honest. On my second watch, I was watching it more closely for Cyril and the Cyril and Dedra plot. And, you know, for as fun as it was to see Cyril playing dress up in his new job and thinking that, you know, he's getting to play in a World War II espionage sandbox. I mean, the character probably wouldn't get that reference,

but you know what I mean? The sad tragedy of that again. For someone whose sartorial choices matter so much to him, the fact that he He was wearing his little beret and his special, you know, his gore accented, uh, fit. Well, he's always dressed the part. He's always dressed the part. But he didn't know what play he was in.

Um, the fact that he was not a spy, that he was not working a long, smart game that he was a stooge. Yeah. Uh, for his girlfriend. What's your read of what basically is the breakdown there that he was sent there by Dedra? Mm-hmm. probably 70% manipulated, 30% actually sincerely we can then become an imperial power couple once we do this mission.

We all have a role to play. But I'm going to obscure your true reason for being there from you. And he's gone there to look for quote unquote outside agitators and in fact he is the outside agitator and that his presence there is in and of itself an accelerant. I think it's also,

and this is part of the genius of the show, right, is that it's a window into their relationship. It's not just that she doesn't tell him, you know, this is for a much larger, you know, we can assume eventually Death Star-related purpose. It's that I don't think she wants to know what empire he's in business with. And one step down from that is what kind of person

he's in a relationship with. He's on board for rooting out agitators. He's on board for, quote, unquote, safety and safety. security in law and order. But the fact that all of this is just false flags piled on top of each other until the flags are lit on fire,

because all they really want to do is have a cover story to eat this planet out from the inside and destroy it. Until they're like, we're done with propaganda. It's time to start fucking mining. Yeah. That is a bridge too far for many. Yeah. And it is a bridge too far for Cyril.

And that moment of, you know, realization that he is in bed with a literal monster and then also this much larger structural monster is devastating. And a big lights off person, you know? She's a big lights off person. Yeah.

Yeah, but we can get into this. I didn't know, but like the shift in power dynamic in the relationship is very erotic. No, is very well played. Yeah. She thought that he was happy to be run, right?

and he was happy until he snapped. And I think the snap that we all thought was coming towards his mother happened towards his girlfriend. Although obviously, like, there was a lot of like pent-up Freudian anger, I think, in some of that. Perhaps. Yeah. His, I guess if we're talking about him, we can talk a little bit about his end. Cyril's end at the end of this episode eight, the end of the sort of Gorman master. scene

comes at the hands not of Cassian but of Rylance the sort of leader of the Gorman Front but someone who is subsumed by or overtaken by

the younger, angrier generation who don't want to silently protest or nonviolently protest they want to be up in arms and he's going around and he's screaming you'll be silent

when you're dead like we have to live otherwise there's no point but, you know, obviously the empire provokes this whole thing into happening and is doing something colonialistic and exploitative anyway. But I thought that that generational schism between Rylance and the younger Gore partisans was really interesting. And it was perfect that as Cyril sees Cassian in the brazzary that we, you know, we recognized from Allen first Parisian espion novel set during World War II, Cassian doesn't know who this guy is.

I mean, that is epic. It is so, so devastating. And naming the episode, Who Are You, as the Cherry on top, there is nothing more annihilating that you could say to Cyril Carnet any moment in his life, let alone at this moment, when even in his own head and the legend of his life has pretty much existed only in his own head, he is waging his own mini-rebellion in that moment. He turns on DEDRA. He turns his back on the empire. He walks out into the crowd. In some ways, he's alive and autonomous and making his own choices

for the first time. And defaults to his one primary objective mission statement. It's a little bit like, there's an echo a little bit of, like, Rick at the end of the White Lotus, just like,

you know, Bugs Bunny meme. Yeah. God, Lord forgive me, time to go back to the old me. And he sees the guy that started all this, that caused him in his mind endless hurt, endless suffering, and the guy doesn't even know who he is. And, you know, then the twin meaning of it of like, in these moments, because we don't get to choose our moment, we don't get to choose our context or our history, like, who are we?

Yeah. And, you know, history doesn't always instruct history reveals. And the larger arc of the series is who is this kit, who sacrifices himself for the empire in Rogue One, who's serial, and it's a sad story. It's an incredibly sad story. I wondered if you felt like you could detect a slight smile on Edie's face, on Catherine Hunter's face, as if he died something bigger than she ever thought he would be. He's famous, right? He's a martyr of the empire into her. I think you can look at it two ways. I mean, I rewatch that wondering. as well.

She seems pretty shook. I think that you can watch that and not pick up any hint of a smile. But if you do pick up the smile, I think that the feeling is even more devastating

because even in death, he was nothing but a prop for his mother's ego. Right. That all of his life was in service to what she expected or wanted to receive and return. And then he gave her

a great big parting gift. Yeah. It's rough. We should, I mean, Kyle Staller, like... I mean, it's just, you know, the idea, I think we've had this really incredible experience over the last 15 years, especially since we've been podcasting, where people have been toying around with the rules of television writing

of a character is introduced and their goals and their paths are sort of explicitly laid out. You as a viewer, I think, especially if you watch a lot of television, start to subconsciously understand certain rules like casting. This person is cast as this part, so they therefore will be with me for a while. People like Taylor Sheridan may try to upset the Apple cart in first episodes, but for the most part, I think when you're watching something, this, this is only, the only comp I have to this is some of the, some of the, the things that David Simon and his crew did on the wire, where you've got Bunny Colvin

in one episode doing, you know, as a background and then becomes like in the format. Cyril's something else. I think that his plot ended the exact place it had to end. And it also is a real confrontational move

to kind of ask people like, what are you here for? You know, what do you think Star Wars is about? What do you think all these people lying dead in this plaza are? They're not, they have, They have an actual story that led them to that moment.

It's also a moment of, it's kind of a reality check for an entire imaginative universe because the bedrock of Star Wars, as we understood it prior to Andor, is Cambelian Heroes' journey. Like the only reason we know who Joseph Campbell is is because we had Star Wars lunchboxes. That's the only reason. It's a tough beat for Joe, but yes. Well, that guy did nothing until George Lucas made him. He should say thank you every morning. Let me rephrase.

The only reason we, dorks, this is before your baseball career, knew who Joseph Campbell was maybe when we were 10 years old or 11 years old, was from having Empire Strikes Back thermases or whatever. Like that, why he became more known and more universal to know who that guy is and the hero's journey. Star Wars is about, it is about prequels and sequels about great men or great women or great aliens with long hair tentacles coming out of their head. And so if you are going backwards to show the growth of someone, it must be for a significant purpose. And that significant purpose is either great good or great evil. And it's a binary. The thing that truly great storytelling does and going back to Greek tragedy and things is what if it's not? Life is rarely like that. You can rarely pick someone who is great or who is bad. And most people are not all one or all the other. And so for Tony to intentionally create this show saying, I will show you who that guy. is in this movie Rogue One, and I'll show you his unlikely origin to become that guy.

And then also saying, you know what, I'm going to show you another guy, too, who is unlikely, and where are we going to take him? And what will it mean for our understanding of this world and of storytelling in general?

It's kind of profound. The version of Star Wars that you're talking about is Cyril and Cassian are on a collision course that culminates somewhere epic. Exactly. It's like Cyril has risen

through the ranks of the ISB and has been recognized for his devout... He's now director Karn. Exactly. And it's like, I have been chasing you throughout the worlds. And Cassine's like, this guy who's chasing me. And there is a much more... It's a cat and mouse game.

And instead, you're left with this... You know, honestly, like, you can't help but feel sympathy for that character at that moment for a variety of reasons. The show, more than anything, especially in its second season, is just about how life can be ground up under the wheels of history.

Mm-hmm. And you do. don't often get a choice into the times that you're born. Why does this feel very relevant as I'm saying it out loud? Thank God there's a new Pope. I really like what you said too about you expect, with the time spent on these characters, you expect an epic collision, quote unquote,

worthy of our time. What we got was messy, it was ugly, was brutal when they actually came at each other. And not only was it unfulfilling, certainly for one of them, it was kind of another Wednesday, I guess the Gore massacre has a larger significance

for the creation of casting. So it wasn't just another Wednesday, but it was a mission for him in which many people try to kill him. And let's also remember that the whole thing is set up in a way that is so brilliant in which the messianic hero potentially,

and we should talk about the introduction of the force in this run, sacrifices himself and is never really known, right? Like that's another example where this idea of Star Wars Yeah, these are footnotes to footnotes.

to footnotes to footnotes. Exactly. Like if you consider the movies to be like the sacred text of this galactic timeline, you have to dig pretty deep into the bibliography or the indices to see the name Cassie. I think sometimes that's why we're having the reaction that we're having. Obviously, this show is written in a language and is told through genres that I think you and I have a huge affinity for. It's jargon heavy. It's acerbic. It's cynical. It's all these things and then it's using espionage and you know crime thriller aspects to tell a sci-fi fantasy story but it's also that i think you and i especially as we get older as we got older because we are old but up against the idea that you have this whole galaxy and five people matter like this idea

that these guys who can lift x wings out of the mud or choke people's collars are the only three people who really matter you know and you have to be a jettie to count. And the show is not about that. Now, there is an element of like, damn, Cassian. You just, you just keep skating on the charges every time we think we have you pinned down. But I think that it's about, there's a difference between having a destiny and having the force, right? There's a difference between, like- Everyone has, everyone's a main character and new story. I was destined to come pod with you today. I felt that way. Yeah. I felt that way. And then I put my hands on your shoulder and you were just like...

Actually, could you? Because I'm having a rotator cuff issue. That's actually real. We could talk about it after. Yeah, we had the Joseph Campbell Star Wars epic. This is the Howard Zinn epic. There you go, brother. Would you pull out the library card on me?

Do you notice the way I said indices earlier? I thought it got a little flicker in your eye. You could take the boy out of the college library, but I take the college library out of the boy. I really loved in seven. I think what we can do is just chat about seven and eight. and kind of jot around a little bit. In 7, you also get a great example of the and or creative team using the gaps in between episode blocks to their great advantage.

And I think, honestly, to be fair, this will be challenging. One of the things that I can't really get a beat on is the response to the show, for people who are like fully immersed in it, I think they're like, I have an extra book of the bite. now. For people who are like, I don't know how to be an and or casual. You know, I, it's too dense. There's too many important pieces that are like thrown out as an aside in a quick

scene before an action scene. And you're like, oh, that actually is definitional for this entire rebellion. Like, we are introduced in seven to the idea that there's been this skiven, schism between Luton and Yavin and that there is like this building of a more formal, more bureaucratic, a lot of councils, a lot of decision making, and a lot of like you have to do this, that, and the other thing, if you want safe passage, if you want the safety of this planet, of this rebel base. And then Luton's still out there on the range, running his crazy games on people and doing triple agents and secret slush funds and antiquities.

And you first get that when Cassie and Bix and Will are together. And Will has been... What a journey Will's been on. Well, he's really had the entire gamut of the human experience. Smoking that Rido. But then seems to have had an interim period with under Luthin. Yes. And now has come to Yavin and been like, what's all this shit?

Like, you guys like you're running water? Like, get back to the real... fight. Get your head in the game. And I've brought this up a lot with Andor this

this season. People playing on each other's emotions to get them to do what they want in a kind of espionage way.

So Will, kid that he is, rhino freak that he is, knows that the one thing that's going to get Cassian back in that ship is showing him Dedra

and giving him this idea that to avenge Marva to avenge Farix, to avenge everything. It's all one. And that is like a,

telling him it's all one story, right, that you can make things right. It's a very, very old-fashioned appeal to the ego, honestly, in a way that Cassing's often free of. He keeps trying to get out. So they keep trying to pull him back in.

And I can't remember when six, like what happens at the beginning at the end of six necessarily off the top of my head. Six is they blow up Dr. Gorsd. Oh, right. And then we don't see them again. There's no, is Yov in there at six? I mean,

I mean, this is also and not, And we, next week, we talked to Tony about this directly, but the show uses negative space brilliantly. Something that I wish more contemporary shows thought about. And often they don't have the runway or the time or the development engagement or investment to do it. But it's like, why today? Why are we showing this? We have limited real estate. We have limited audience attention.

What is the best version of the story we need to tell? And whether it was Tony himself or his brother, Dan, or Bo William. or the people at Lucasfilm, someone might have even just idly asked the question, like how should we show the foundation, the founding of Yavin? Why this moon? Why, how did we get,

where did this general come from? And who else is there? And what's the leadership structure? And how has it been growing year over a year? And I think they made a decision, as they've made many times. I alluded to it when we were talking about, like, the Dr. Gorse thing feeling rushed.

Like, you got to trust the, you got to trust the guy tap in a stopwatch. You got to trust the person. in charge of making all the trains run on time and go along with it. They made the decision of it is more fruitful for the story we're telling today to introduce Yavin in media res, right? We're picking up, it's at this level of bureaucracy. It's at this level of engagement and do it through the characters we know, which you just alluded to.

So we learn about the relationship of the increasingly bureaucratic layers of the rebellion through the way Luthan is spoken of and about where he is his real estate. where he's choosing to put himself physically versus what Yavin is. And then all of that, and then also all the little kids with thermoses like us, like the hairs in the back of our arms stand up because we're like, oh, shit,

that's that base with a guy with the big hat stands in the tower. That's so sick. He's using his radar gun. He's like, he's looking. That's so wild. It's awesome. There's also this feeling in the same way

that in Gore, there's this generational transition happening probably for the worse for everybody involved. Vell and Bix and their conversation at the end of seven about no longer being

Luthan's puppets and people starting to move away from move away from Luthin's like hold on them and like this idea that there's one way to fight and it's total

and it's cutthroat and there's no reason to even think about what to build afterwards, you just have to tear it all down. Also, that the heroes you need aren't always the ones that you want. Like, one of the, these are all like

meta-sub-conversations, but the idea of the face of a revolution or the star of a box office redefining trilogy is never going to be Stell and Scars Guard. It might not even be Diego Luna. It's certainly not going to be Forrest Whitaker with that outfit with the

gas mask on his face. One of the things that I love that gets going in these episodes is the words of Saw from the previous trilogy of episodes when he says, Revolution is not for the sane. That echoes throughout these three and likely all the way into the very end. It makes us think about who are the revolutionaries on our screens in these episodes. Well, even think about the language they're using. They're not calling it revolution anymore. They're calling it an alliance. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's been rebranded. It's gone from

Thunderbolts to the new alliance. No, but like, very specifically, like, the crazies, the gas-huffing crazies are being phased out. Now, they wouldn't be there without the gas-huffing crazies, but then it starts to need to have an official face, and Mon Mothma's face is that face,

and when she sees the cost of getting her to being the face, she's horrified at first. She can't believe it. She thinks she's above it. She thinks she's not involved in it. As Luton says in the beginning, what does he say? How nice for you? I thought he said Mothma is brat, But yeah.

He turns to the camera and just dead scars guarded dress. If it does the apple dance. But very seriously. Yeah. The kids on Gorman, just dying by the dozens, Luthan's like, good. Well, that's the terror of the deed that he was looking for. It's a, I was listening to a, in preparation for this. podcast. I was listening to another podcast, David Runciman's pod, past, present, future was talking about

an episode where he talked about Lenin and Trotsky. Yeah, here we go. And he was talking about the idea of the event that will catalyze, you know, a huge reaction out of people. And Luton had said in previous episodes, he's like, look, if it goes down, it kind of helps the, it helps the cause. I love this too, because everyone's always saying, like, I'm the smart one. You know what I mean? Like, I'm the bookish one. And you're the good time, Charles. over here, but listen to you. I'm just hanging out with Vlad and Leo. Yeah.

Doing the Apple dance. All right. Let's get into nine. Is anything else on the gore? Well, the problem with this show, if I can say, this is my one problem, my one criticism of the show is we are drowning in the good stuff. Like, these three episodes, we could do three podcasts on them. And I'm sure there are many others when they're not talking about Lyndon Trotsky that do

three episodes about them. I think that the accomplishments of a, and again, we'll talk to Tony about that next week, on a practical level are jaw-dropping because there's a version of watching that episode where you're like, ah, they have a standing set. And so everything that happens on Gorman is in this square, in Cyril's building, in the hotel or in the bistro of the bar. We should mention that the hotel bellhop comes back in this block and, is also a major character on the bureau. That was the hacker on the...

I know. It's so sick. That guy fucking really... He went out like a G. He nutted up. Yeah. But also, one of the things I love about him is that... He went out like a G.

The duality of his life, where he was like, yes, I will end my own life and hopefully the lives of five to six stormtroopers and a blaze of righteous glory. But first, madame monsieur, would you mind moving away from the door, please, and take your bags? There's a back exit.

Professional to the end. Yeah, so we have, but you could look at that and be like, oh, they were, they were limited. You know, it's funny when you see a show that is as incandescent as this and also as ambitious as this, you see when you can see the seams a little bit. Like, they're trying to do something huge and that it all went down in one square that we'd seen before. There's a part of you that's like, oh, they finally, they finally hit the wall. I think I definitely see what you're saying, but I think cycle a lot, like story-wise it made sense. Yeah, it's not, that's what I'm saying. These people are being manipulated for years.

They are being provoked. They've got all these Fox News setups happening around the plaza. That is the backdrop for all these reports about all this agitation, all this, all this, you know, all the provocative things that the gore are doing. Why are they not ready to go along with imperial norms? And then they get funneled in there and trapped in there. It's a stage set. Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean.

Like, that's the, I like, we like to. as we should, when we glaze, as the kids say, creators for doing, they not? Should we change this to glazing the creators? That's actually, Kai, that would do big for us, right? That would be, Kai's into that. These creators ate today. Yes.

Guy has got no mic if we're going to get her on these. For, you know, making us not even notice the seams or any budgetary limitations. Like when you can do that as a creative, that's amazing. But I think it's even more amazing when they made the limitations part of the text. That of course this all went down in a place that is significant because it is a scene of a memorial for the fallen that the imperial is just going to shit all over again. Yes. I thought that was remarkable. Also, just these little, little decisions like people are, the people want the droid. People are eager for the droid to come back. Your boy.

And I got to say, K2. Great droid. And we'll be talking about him next week. Yeah. But. It's got a little bit to atone for. You think?

Yeah, after the gorm. But that's what I'm saying. It is just god tier development and the good kind of audience manipulation to have everyone fiending for a hit of this sweet, sweet droid and then introduce them as absolutely terrifying mechanized killing machines. jeans and the look and the fact that Cyril understands what's about to happen and what he's done with his life with a look from a droid is horrifying and then the you know the the CG required to make them move like that and feel scary like that and to kill Rylins's daughter in the almost

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The only thing we didn't say also about eight is Kurt Egyuan, one of the great actors of our time and most versatile actors of our time is on the show. Yeah. But really just as like Cyril's minder. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if that was misdirection, like, oh, the audience is going to be like, he was in an Oscar-nominated movie this year and three of the best TV shows. That guy works. He's awesome. I wish he had more to do.

Okay, sorry, good tonight. Welcome to the Rebellion, which is basically breaking Mon out of Choracont after she gives her stirring address to the Senate about the Gorman Massacre. There is, this thing moves so fast that it. It's hard sometimes to keep exact track of who is doing what and why. So a good example of this, I think, is the, Organa is like, I have like a crew. They're going to get you out of here after you do your speech, but I'm going to stay.

And then immediately, Luton is like, by the way, that crew is compromised. You got to go with my guy. Here's how he's going to introduce himself to you. And you really have to, like, there's certain things that might, just be like, yeah, Luthan's got eyes and ears everywhere, but we know that Luton is in the ISB. We know

that Luton is everywhere. So it kind of makes sense. But the speed at which the story is told leading up to, is she going to make her speech? How is she going to get out of this building? You know, being like, oh, we've got, Erskine has always been working for Luthon, so he's, but they've also always been listening

to her office. So what do they know? What does she talked about in that office over the years? You can feel everything start to collapse. And then I think that there's another element so there's the Mon, her bravery, her escape, all the little minor characters, the driver, you know what I mean, that now all of a sudden

play this larger part. Clovis, I believe his name is. And then I think, to me, the most meaningful scene, maybe like the episode or the one that really leapt out at me was Clea and Cassian in Luton's shop in the beginning. And he says he's done. Yeah, and her just kind of saying, he's like, I want to make my own decisions

and she's like, I thought that's what we were fighting for. You know, that you in some way could say is the sort of thesis statement of the show. Goosepums. There you go. Episode 9 is my Star War. That's mine. That's the one I want. We learned in the Bourne movies and in the end of Michael Clayton

that no one is more capable of making, getting in and out of official buildings more exciting than Tony Gilroy and in this case his brother Dan I thought this episode was just so gripping and so thrilling and Genevue of O'Reilly's performance is one of the best of the year and again I

there is her faces when like she's she realizes how fucking what kind of deep shit she's in as he keeps mowing people down as they get out of the building and I'm not I think people I've proved my bona fides by now that I'm not like a typical fanboy about this stuff but like the fact that she was cast 20 years ago to play a version of this character in scenes that were mostly cut from the one that's back in theaters episode three

and was available and ready and eager to take this on and then to elevate it beyond what anybody possibly could have expected of her. Yeah. Is wild. I think that the way that she conveys the mix of control and chaos that the character is living through, that she knows, she accepts the weight of history. She's been waiting for this moment. She's practicing.

She's rehearsing. She doesn't quiver, you know, when she's out on that platform. And let me also say the design of the Imperial Senate, all-timer. Yeah. Maybe the best thing to come out of... We've seen the set up before. Yeah, I'm saying, like, one of the best things to come out of those prequels, I think.

Yeah. So beautiful and epic and memorable and odd. And then again, like with a lot of things that were already there in the canon, this show elevates them. So it's not just, oh, it's cool that when they speak, they're floating in these little private pods.

It's, what would it feel like to be launched off of the wall towards the center, knowing what you're about to do will fundamentally change the arc of your life. And she plays that and she delivers this beautiful speech. And then, yeah, and then we get the internal thriller where, I mean, it's always good when a guy's being told to turn off the feed. There's so much about feeds. Rogue One is really based on can we open up the feed.

Yeah, we got to open up the shield. And, oh, and get the, we got to upload some data. Yeah. When you rewatch that movie, which we'll talk about at some point, like the degree to which it's just about, like, uploading to the cloud. I know. And it's that gripping? It's, it's, it's, It's pretty remarkable. It really makes you appreciate spectrum cable. It also makes you appreciate how much of this job that we are glazing is also just custodial in the sense that like one of the big action set pieces of that movie, the definitive one, is like we need to get something out of storage.

Oh, no. The hook doesn't work anymore. So we have to get it by hand. Yeah. And that's the movie. Yeah. I mean, but that's this too. We have to get this lady out of a building. I think that there's still the bones of smart blockbuster writing to any of these scripts that we're also like, but this is about, you know, the...

No, that's the other thing. Ambiguity of revolution. You know, like, it's still like something interesting has to happen every 10 minutes here. I think that there is... There's been such a, and I'm the beneficiary of it and this podcast is the beneficiary of it, like an explosion and celebration of the minutiae and the craft of TV writing and that... the depth that you can achieve and the specificity that you can chase and the time you can spend with people.

But there's something to be said about classic movie writing, which is like, let's go. I think you have to have both. Let's get on with it. If you're going to do 21 hours of a television show or whatever this will net out to be, I think you have to have both.

I think you have to have Gorman and you have to have Cassian getting Mon out of that building. But you also get the detail work on this show is astonishing. every episode, and then when you are really fucking dialed into it, I think that's when it really starts to reveal itself. There's a, earlier in the season, there's a passage where Bix and Cassian are spending time in this safe house.

And in almost, the first past year, like, this is almost mannered. Bix keeps referring to wanting to get towels or dishes and they cook there. And if we're going to be here, if this is our home, we should treat it like a home, but it's a safe house. It's not a home, you know? And I think Cassian, deep down, understand. that eventually the call is going to come. Yeah. The blinking light out in the city.

The fact that Mon picks up on Cassian's familiarity with the place and is like, you've been here before, haven't you? And that pays off because he used to be in love in this building, in this room. And now it's like this, it just takes on a different kind of, it takes on a whole different kind of feeling when you know that the show feels lived in. These aren't just random fucking rooms these people are walking into. But it's also the best of dramatic writing, which is you cram the entirety of life into small moments. And you communicate it that way.

And so that everything that the safe house set represents, the idea of like we could be safe here, we could make a life here, we could be happy here, we could domesticate it. But we might have to leave this room. It is also their lives. The lives that they have chosen, the lives that history, the life cards that history dealt them have demanded that they will never be safe. They will never be domesticated. And maybe they can't accept that writ large yet, but they accept it in this specific tiny moment. And the illustration of that and the artfulness

with which those moments are chosen and the way that they're articulated, like you're saying, these little, nothing goes to waste. And you can feel that when you have these small lines that communicate entire histories or alternative histories between characters. I mean, everything on this show, you could move the stock market with it.

If you make a wrong step, it changes the way people feel about the entire series to say nothing about the franchise. There's all these rules that they have to play by, but the fact that they stick to the old, like just, I don't even know if it's the old ways because I don't even know what I'm referring to

when I say it, but I know every single person who's listening to this podcast when you walk into a room, you have a relationship with the space. But that is never referenced in visual storytelling for the most part. it's like here's the part.

I come in and I stand here, this is the blocking, and then I say these words. And it can still be good that way. But how often do you get somebody who's like, I have a history here? Like this place? Like I know where the coffee cup is.

It used to mean something. Yeah. So that in some ways for as many, as acrobatic and wonderful as the escape is, it's the Cota that really got me. And it's the idea that, you know, that Cassian has already sort of started

being written out of this story. Yeah, it's moved past him to a degree. A couple other beats to hit, I think. One, you mentioned Brat Summer, but for me it's Benjamin Brat Spring. I don't want to speak ill of our guy, James Smith, who is wonderful. Yeah.

I kind of like, and I can't, maybe it's the Gilroy Brothers writing Bail Organa that makes me like Brat more, but I'm really, really digging his performance. Yeah, I mean, he's also just doing a ton with not that much. I mean,

you've got associations you make with that character, you know what becomes of him, you know who he's been associated with in the future movies, but past movies. But, yeah. And I also love reading Brats

like press about this where he's just like, I can't believe I'm in a fucking Star Wars thing. Like, this is like a lifelong dream come true. It is also, and maybe this is a better way to frame it. It's not that Jimmy Smith is doing anything less

and it would have been great to see him get the chance. It's that so much of that performance, and a lot of the performances in prequels and in the subsequent TV shows, is presentational. I'm standing here wearing the costume of a character that is significant because you have bookmarked Wikipedia. I don't particularly have any fluidity in my choices as an actor in this moment because I don't have any fluidity in my character's choices. I'm here to do a thing and complete a task and to stand here. I'm not here to be tormented over the fate of a nature. institution that I've devoted my life to, which is the Galactic Senate.

Yeah. Like, there's nothing, there's nothing to play. And here there's something to play in a way that's really significant. I want to get you on the record with your thoughts about the introduction of force healing. And I'd like to put it in the larger context of, you know, I have found acupuncture to be quite helpful to me in my life's journey inside of a decaying body. I've gotten it twice. Have you?

So I don't know where you are generally with force healing. I had a not great second experience with acupuncture and have not gone back what do you think of Cassian being the special one? I didn't love this scene maybe because I've gotten far too comfortable in my magic doesn't exist in this world viewpoint Yeah.

I think that people who are listening to this podcast can tell that I recently rewatch Rogue One, the way the force exists in that I can live with, because I think it is interesting if it's fringy, if it's something that people have opinions about or don't have a lot of belief in and haven't had much experience with. So if it's just like the one friend who's trying to tell you how meditation can change your life and you're like, great, but I got to drink these two black eyes that I got at Starbucks this morning and coached the D-backs. Not that Arizona Diamondbacks, I mean the defensive backs, to be clear. So in that sense, I appreciated it.

I also, I think that there's a shift in these episodes as we get closer to the finish line and as we get closer to the baton pass to Rogue One, that there are some things that have to be accounted for. And the word force is talked about in Rogue One. It has not been talked about in this. So this was a pretty low-key way to suggest to introduce it. That said, it is introduced pretty explicitly to kind of drive a wedge between Cassian and the more woo-woo belief system of Bix. Because she leaves at the end of this trilogy. Yeah, I think Bix is searching for something.

I think Bix, she's looked in drugs. She's looked in farming. you know, she's looked in a lot of stacks for the book that's going to change her life. Speaking of stacks, if she was alive now, she'd have a substack. She's gone through these, like, I, you know, as the top of the line torture

that the ISB has at their, truly. At their, in their toolbox. And she's come out on the other side and I think that there's something that works about introducing the idea of the force or just healing. on Yavin.

Because the way that Yavin is depicted in those brief moments is this kind of utopia, you know, leafy greens everywhere. And this is where we've made a real life. It's the exact opposite of the safe house on Corrassan. Yeah. You know, it's bucolic compared to urban. It's, you know, you could be a family there, you know. And I think everybody is starting to feel their purpose.

The thing for me with Cassian and, you know, identifying him. as somebody with vibes coming off of him. I think actually works because, look, Cassian gets out by the skin of his teeth of a lot of jams. He sure does. Now, I'm not saying I believe Cassian is force sensitive. I don't really think it matters. Yeah.

Call it what you want. Like, you know, it's like... Yeah, there can be a religious reading of historical events that lends itself to this person was chosen by someone or is a, you know, acting as an agent of a higher power. And I think because of Rogue One, we write in a little bit more.

meaning to his, because we know where it ends up. Yeah. And maybe it feels a little bit more like he had to, you know? Yeah. And that his constant, I mean, these are the episodes where he, you know, you begin to get some of the tension of Luthan's people and what they mean as in this increasingly bureaucratic Yavin and like general, let's get General Draven, who's in Red One is always like, ooh, you crazy kids.

Don't you take that you win. Get you next time. How about the, just a couple other. points of order. How about the, I mean, the Bix departure, did you feel? I thought it was sweet. Yeah. I mean, I think obviously there are certain things that have to happen because she's not in Rogue One. Yeah. But I thought it's about how impossible it must be to conduct any semblance of a of a romantic relationship with someone in that kind of scenario. I also think the show is very smart about continually... And Cassie and

is leaning her way. He keeps saying, like, I want to make my own decisions. I don't want to do this anymore. I've given so much. I've done, I left Luth and I came to Yav and now I want to make my own calls. Like, you know, I think that she sees where he's going and feels like she can't do that. And I think Vell does, goes a long way towards convincing her where she's like, we kind of need this guy. I think that the show is so brilliant because it also can be looked at a different way, which is that their relationship,

has become one of mutually holding each other, but potentially holding each other back. And who gets to decide that? In this case, Bix decided and moved on. But the sense that what their relationship has become due to the context that they're in is, it's not maintenance is kind of disparaging because I think they love each other,

but kind of providing service to each other in a way. And I think that, I think what's interesting about, and we'll see how it plays out in the last few episodes, but that like, it's not necessarily, you could watch these episodes and believe her and say it's not just that she is yet another martyring woman in the service of a great man,

that she needs something different too, because this doom loop is not healthy. Yeah, the entire show, Cassian keeps coming back to her and then leaving her again. And I think that she just takes the front foot on this one. She's like, I'm going to leave you, but not to hurt you, but to put you in this. situation that you need to be in to do what we need to do here.

And then in episodes end, he gets a rebound fling. He gets a robot. Do you have any big K2 thoughts? I mean, a huge fan of his in Rogue One. We'll have to see how Andor builds his personality. It's a great, it's a great droid. I mean, I think, look, between us, like, I think sometimes droids get a little bit of a pass, like BB8, it's like, it's a ball.

Like, okay. Would you rather have a droid or a Baby Yoda? In my own life? Mm-hmm. Are you, I have children. I need a droid. I need a droid now. Well, I mean, I think Baby Yoda's got a lot of pluses.

Do you think Baby Yoda could make two breakfasts and two lunch at the same time while the sun is coming up? That makes you sound like a droid. That's how I feel. Welcome to the rebel. I mean, parenting. So, yeah. Yeah. All right, let's talk about the movies.

Do you have any gas in your tag to talk about a Marvel movie? Yeah, sure, man. I want you to cook, man. Because I knew you're going to like this movie. I saw it about 10 days ago. You saw it a little bit after me. And when I was watching it, I was like, this is going to bring Greenwald back to... Did you think that?

What was it that? I thought you were going to start... I'm back, baby. I loved it. But why did you think that? Because I think you, weirdly, and I can never predict when it's going to work and when it's not, I think that the emotional components and the not necessarily mental health, but the psychological components of the movie were going to work for you.

And obviously, Florence Pugh is just, she's him and has, like, she can carry a movie and she can improve every scene. And every time she's on camera, you're like, what is she doing? She's doing something interesting. I think I was a little lower on it than you were. But I definitely, definitely, as someone who thought he was dying while watching Brave New World and just dying of old age and dying of sadness. You need acupuncture. it's so much better than what we've gotten recently that it almost feels churlish to like nitpick at like

oh I thought structurally like the first half was kind of whatever it's two conversations there's the is this a good movie that made me feel good in the way good movies make me feel or is the or is the or is the are you getting the extra rocket boost of I still despite all my instincts believe in this project and I'm a fan of this project and they're pulling it back in the right direction now

And I think that your opinion of this as a standalone film, I think there's legitimate criticisms to be made. But if you are, and I heard Sean say this on the big picture, too. Like if you just still, despite everything of the last few years, kind of like this stuff and want it to work and be good, then this was very affirming. Yeah. I thought that it was remarkably coherent in so many, on multiple levels.

Not just in terms of its story, which, you know, It's a pretty tidy and trim movie. It's, and in terms of its runtime. Yeah, in some ways there's like basically two big scenes. It's like they all get together and then they all fight sentry. And speaking, I'm like, sorry if there's spoilers for Thunderbolt. But also speaking of like, oh, that whole massacre took place in one standing set. I mean, like, this movie does posit the question, what if there were only 16 people on earth?

Like, and then a couple extras who get momentarily blotted. Like it is incredibly small bore and small stakes. It helps that two of those 16 are prominent cast members from The Wire. So I'm definitely interested in seeing the further adventures of Congressman Gary, I believe, which does make it sound like we're belittling him. But I think his last name is Gary. I was just so surprised and pleasantly surprised that the creative team behind it's Jake Shriar is the director and Eric Pearson and Joanna Kalo are the credited writers, although we know Sunny Lee, who is Jake's partner in making beef, was involved at some point as well. gave this movie a coherent momentum and reason for being, despite 100% being a,

well, we introduced some characters on TV shows, what will we do with them? I thought that just on a practical level, like, that was very, very clever. And then after that, maybe it's not rocket science. I think Florence Pew is incredibly charismatic movie star, and they made this movie about her, and she just carries it, and she's a delight.

I think Lewis Pullman, have you ever heard of him before or seen him in anything? I think that he is also a great big star and he's exciting and it's great to see him on screen. I love you and I really and I love Lewis Pullman even more. No, I think that's right, but Lewis Pullman is a great big star as a kind of like to be. Yeah, oh, I don't mean right now.

Yeah, and I don't think he's famous at all right now. So you were all in on the Century Void stuff. Well, we did talk about this in the past on the pod. Like that is one of the, like over the, like most of the stuff. that fueled Marvel comics, but then also movies, is older. And then there's some storylines and some ideas that have really popped in the last few decades. And some of them, like Miles Morales or like Young Avengers, which they haven't really figured out how to do. Century is one of the great ones, the 90s, of like, let's create a DC-type God character who is his own supervillain.

But everybody's, like, forgotten him? And let's retcon him into, like, he's been around since the 60s or 70s. and he has this relationship. And, and I mean, it's just a, it's a cool idea. Choosing him as the villain and then deciding that the thing that unites these knockdown anti-heroes is their own mental health struggles and traumatic journeys. Sure. I also, yeah, I am fully 100% a sucker for, like, let's fight the real enemy.

And, like, let's not take down another city or another space god and make it about how hugs help. like that also could be if we were living listen if we were all still if this year went differently and Kai and I were doing this podcast from a coconut tree like maybe this movie would feel a little trait where would I be? Well you would have been disappointed

right I know I think that you know on social issues you would have been bummed out but for your crypto holdings I think you would have been like well let's see where this thing goes yeah is socially liberal financially conservative is that what I am socially liberal, financially crypto, I think is what we know about you.

Financially imperial. I thought, but also like, they also did the thing. Remember when in the run-up to your favorite MCU movie, Eternals? I can't even make that as a joke. No, but in the run-up to Eternals. But that's the thing. I knew you were going to like it because I know you secretly like Eternals. I secretly am sympathetic to it.

I like Brian Tyree Henry. I admit that it's primarily dog shit. I was actually going to say something critical of it. I know this is shocking. But, like, we were, in the buildup to it, we were like, you know, Oscar winner Chloe Jo demanded shooting, like, authentically on location for this, you know? And then it was still like, well, Antarctica, but it's kind of purple. Yeah.

This movie felt practical in some ways. Sure. Not just in the last battle stuff, too. But, like, yeah, we're on location and we're in Utah. Great. We're on one city street in wherever it was, Atlanta. Fine. It just didn't feel like green.

CG vomit over the entire thing. Yeah, I thought that the two things I would probably say for me as like kind of criticisms of the film were it was a good team up movie in opposition to nothing.

You know, like it was, they did a good job fitting these characters together RIP Taskmaster. I was going to say, are you hashtag justice for Taskmaster? Do you think part of her deal was that Olga Karlenko was just like, fuck you guys, you pay me out and also I'm not showing up and you can just draw my face on something for a day.

I don't know, but that was, I mean, I think they've, they've really, really tried to like thread the needle with the spoilers on Thunderbolts, which they have now given up the ghost on, but not ghost the character who makes it through the entire movie. Very committed to a character that I still think, I don't quite see the vision. Like, you know what I mean? I don't see what she brings. Where is she from? Ant Man and the Wasp. Oh, right. Right. I keep asking this question and I keep not knowing the answer. I thought that the Julia Louis Dreyfus character who has essentially been

Neo Nick Fury showing up in the background in Stingers and then it was on secret invasion I think You know what We're gonna have to take your word for it

on that one homie I only watched a couple of episodes of that That's okay Um that she was not like a foil worthy of the entire

like superhero Armada. I frequently was like this seems like a little bit challenging for me to believe that she's got one guy who's also their friends and yet is running like both the federal government and

this team of superheroes. No one else exists. Yeah. And also a lot of digital paper trail in the hands of young Mel. Right. And also I don't know, Val and Mel are a little I personally it's like I think these movies work when they have good bad guys

and this movie didn't really have it. What about Great Big Giant star Lewis Pullman? The Paul Newman. Over our era. But I thought it was just such a huge improvement. And I don't know if there are lessons to be learned from it. I don't know if anything coming after it is going to resemble it. I saw the Russo Brothers heralding the fact that Doomsday will be made for the TikTok generation.

Also, how about the fact that they couldn't stay quiet? They're filming the most anticipated, most expensive movie of all time, and they had to, like, jump on socials to be like, actually, we directed that post-credit scene. Could you tell from our signature visual, Elan? Like, my sense is that their only note was like, let's get Wyatt Russell in a beret. That's their contribution to it.

Now, the other thing that I, like, I heard Sean and Mallory and Amanda say this, and I appreciated it, that, like, sometimes we're just looking for... I only listen when you're not. on. I'm so sorry. Why do you think that's funny? Because I'm kind of enjoying the fact that I'm somehow creating

your void, which is some sort of like crypto-fascist when you're not on the mic playing nice with everyone. Like I didn't intend this. No, but they, I think sometimes you're just looking for proof of life. And like the David Harbor Florence Puse scene is like, I think Sean was like

a real scene for, a real scene from a real movie is suddenly here. And I appreciate that. I think the other thing in, going back to my original point, is that if you're invested in this project and you want these movies to be good and fun because maybe hypothetically you're watching them

with your children and you don't want to doom yourself to another 10 years of watching absolute drivel, there's now pieces on the board. Like, these guys, now the New Avengers will return. I'm like, okay, good. Like, I'm looking forward to watching Florence Pugh in a movie that gives me some sense of actually

what spatially we will be enduring or enjoying in theaters for the next two to three years. I look forward to that. I have a spoiler, forward-looking spoiler question for you as a comic, as a guardian of the galaxy of the comic book story. The spaceship, Fantastic Four's spaceship, I assume. It's branded, yeah, they wrote on the side. Is arriving in our reality. So that would suggest that we are going to get some multi-dimensional, we're going to continue to get like multiple realities and timelines.

Well, that is the basis of I think the, well, the gambit, no Channing Tatum, of the Fantastic Four movie being set in an alternate 1960s, that that's a different universe. The introduction of Galactus suggests the end of a world and then also this idea from the comics of incursions between the dimensions, ultimately leading us to what everybody wants, at least everybody, Kevin Feigy and Alan Horn and Bob Eiger want, which it collapsed dimensional timeline. We can have all our toys and then we can choose new toys

for the next 10 years going forward. So it does suggest that the Fantastic Four movie ends with them either being like we have to warn other dimensions or that's our wrap on our reality. We better find another one. That'd be a tough beat.

I know, right? It was great talking to you today. Well, like I said at the beginning of the pub we'll be back on Tuesday. Yeah. Evening. I would imagine probably 10 p.m.

or 9.30, 9 p.m. on Pacific time. Who knows? Sometime in the evening on Tuesday. Well, because I want people to be able to watch the episodes if they want of Andor. So that would mean 9 p.m. Pacific because they go live 6 p.m. Okay, so maybe around 9.5 Pacific. Midnight. Yeah. And then we'll have Tony Gilroy on that entire episode, talk about Andor.

And then Thursday we'll be back. And we'll talk about some other stuff. And maybe we'll hit the last three of Andor if we haven't gotten into it. Yeah. Thank you to Kyya. Thank you to John. Thank you to Andy. Do you feel okay about me?

I'm sorry I said that. Oh, I feel fantastic. We'll be back on Tuesday. Putting off replacing your window treatments because you think it's complicated. At blinds.com, we've spent 30 years proving it doesn't have to be. And today is your last chance to save big on spring black Friday deals. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro to handle everything for measure to install, we've got you.

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