The Watch - ‘Andor,’ the Final Season of ‘Atlanta,’ and the Russo Brothers

Episode Date: November 3, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the news that the Russo Brothers will be making a live action ‘Hercules’ musical that is heavily influenced by TikTok (1:00). Then they talk about the most recent episode of ‘Andor’ (22:58) and the most recent episodes of ‘Atlanta’ before the series finale (35:16). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. How many times does he watch Bryce Harper's home run highlights? Never more than 12. It's Andy Green.

Whoa. Whoa. Look at that. Look at the way you weave it together. It took me like eight minutes to think of that. Holy shit. Some people are saying, had been saying that they worried you had lost your fastball. No one was saying that about the Astros pitcher last night.

But some people were saying that about you, Chris. And you know what? They're wrong. They're wrong. It's great to see you. Thank you, man. Sports and culture. That was the Granland.com of intros.

Yo, you were real quiet on text last night during the Phillies pretty decisive loss to the Houston Astros. I wonder whether or not, do you consider yourself a frontrunner when it comes to sports? No. First of all, I reject that characterization. The problem was a lot of doomsayers out there. And my response was, and this is a. quote from a text message I sent to multiple people,

it's okay, we're going to win the World Series. Did you send that to me? I felt like maybe I didn't, maybe I was reading the room because you, maybe you were a little down. Look, I am trying something new at this stage in my middle time of life. Like, I've tried all the other ways. You know, I've decided I think they're going to win. And it doesn't cost me anything.

I feel good. It saved my night last night, frankly. Do you think you'll bring this level of optimistic? Pins him to season two of House of the Dragon? No, no, no, no. I mean, okay, you know what? We'll see. We'll see.

If it works out for me, I am not a front runner in sports, but I am a front runner in life strategies. So that if this works, this pivot to positivity, then I'll stick with it. How about that? That sounds good. Last night when the Phillies were losing, I think we were down five, which is not an insurmountable amount of runs for the Phillies to come back from. I was kind of like, in the beginning of the night,

I was just like telling my wife just so you know, like this is my main focus for the evening. And then when we went to like six or seven runs, I was just like, why don't we try this lemon ricotta pasta you've been wanting to make? And it was pretty good. First of all, good job by you. That's a very adult swing.

Yeah. Not a swing and a miss because there were plenty of those. But that was really smart. Do you... I tried to get away with it being like just an idea about dinner and then about 20 minutes into it. She was like, what's the score? And I was like, we're losing seven.

Nothing. Do you generally maintain parliamentary rules and order in your home? This like, I kind of, it felt very formal and polite the way you were informing her of the baseball game that this would be your primary focus for the evening. And then you pivoted to pasta. Like, is that generally how you roll? Like, do you have like an agreed upon evening schedule? No, not necessarily, but there's only two of us. So there's a lot of free flowing exchanges of ideas going.

on in the Ryan household pretty much all day long. My children said, what happened with your game? And I said, well, they were no hit. And there was a pause. And they said, but did they win? And I was like, God bless you. That's where you get your honor. Bless you.

Andy, today we're going to talk about Andor, episode nine. We're also going to talk a little bit about Atlanta, like kind of a broad conversation about Atlanta, I thought, because we haven't really hit it in a couple of weeks, maybe even a month. So I wanted to do that. There's a couple of news stories I wanted to get to at the top, though, and I always love just kind of, you know, gut checking with you about headlines in the entertainment business here.

So the first one that I've got is that this is like, this could swing the midterms, if you ask me. The Russo brothers and Guy Ritchie are mounting a live action retelling of the Hercules story for Disney. And it is allegedly, well, not allegedly, reportedly inspired by TikTok. It's going to be a brave experimental take on a legend that I think really like honestly speaks to a lot of kids. It's just, I don't know if you talk to a lot of being stronger than everyone.

Yeah. Yeah, just kids who are emergent consumers, you know, a little bit of pocket money. And the first thing that they're like is like, when's my generation getting their version of the Hercules story? And it's funny. It's a fair question. But this morning at school drop off, my older daughter said, almost unprompted, I hate her. Pericles, or Heracles, as he was also known. Yes.

Yeah, so it doesn't fall far from the tree. The golden apple that was next to where Atlas holds up the earth. Yeah, it doesn't fall too far. But yes, she actually said that. Really? Boy, I hope, you know, I know Bob Cheapek isn't a, he doesn't listen to every episode, but I imagine he dips in and out. He saves the four road trips, actually.

Yeah. So I hope he catches this one. Chris, the remaking, the live action versions of Disney cartoons, that's what they're doing. Like, that's just, there's a whole wing in Burbank to vote. I really appreciate you trying to commit this from a sober, like, here's how I read this point of view. That's not what we're going to be talking about. I want to talk about, and I mean this sincerely, I don't mean this in an unkind way, but I want to know who hurt the Rousseau's and why was it movies.

because they made, you know, people don't need us to repeat the laurels here, but they defined the Avengers era of movies, right? Like they made Winter Soldier and they made Civil War and they made the two Avengers movies, the last two, and those were great flicks. They did a great job. And, you know, on this podcast and in many other places not involved with us in the media, people were like, these two brothers were like so uniquely suited to this type of movie and they redefined, you know, what cinema can be in the serialized IP era.

All that's great. And then they just went off on their own and something feels broken. Now, I've, I said this on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. I watched the first 20 minutes of Grey Man and I immediately invoiced Netflix for the time. Because, you know, as I said, I'm not young anymore and I need that back. And my takeaway wasn't like, oh, an interesting failure. My takeaway was, has anyone involved in this ever seen a movie? Right.

Like it just did not seem to be speaking any kind of established filmic language. And then now they're like, yeah, we're going to do a musical, but people don't like musical. So we're going to do a TikTok movie. What? What is this? I think that your question is a good one, which is who hurt the Rousseau's? Why is this happening to us? And was it, did they have relatives in Socovia?

And I do wonder whether or not we need to look at the man in the mirror, whether it's us. because there's something about their turn towards flying the Hollywood plane into the side of the mountain that seems to correspond with when there was also a huge uptick and cynicism about their project in general. So these guys were kind of like

the kings of director bullshit for a while. And director bullshit, a hobby horse of ours. We actually like, we need it. I need director bullshit. Yeah. I need the guy who's directing Black Adam to talk about, you know, the influence of Terrence Malick on the film.

And the Russo's always delivered. And they would always just be like, of course, Infinity War has, you know, a heavy influence of Antonioni in it. But I think because we joked about that so much, it's almost like when... When Obama teased Trump once. Yeah. And Trump was like, cool, I'm going to run for president and ruin the country. You know, it's like, I feel like we kind of pushed the director bullshit shit thing too far. And now these guys, here is their current slate of projects. A Greyman sequel, a sci-fi movie with Chris Pratt and Millie Bobby Brown. They will attempt to bankrupt Amazon with this show the Citadel, which is like currently on Showrunner 5 shooting on Continent

number six. And then they are also rebooting Butch and Sundance. That's the one. I mean, that is, that's incredible. And so they've kind of taken some of, of the sort of orthodoxy or like the, you know, the ideology behind director bullshit and inverted it so that it's like, now it's just like cheese brain bullshit. So this is Joe Rousseau's quote about this Hercules thing. There are questions about how you translate it as a musical. Yeah. There are fucking questions about how you translate it as a musical. Nobody was like, what's the song in the heart of Hercules, right? Yeah. And then he says, audiences today have been trained by TikTok, right? Why is that a question?

Either you think that they have been or they haven't, but it really does have extreme, like, I don't use TikTok, but people keep saying TikTok to me vibes. Audiences have been trained by TikTok, right? What is their expectation of what that musical looks and feels like? That can be a lot of fun and help us push the boundaries a little bit on how you execute a modern musical. That's terrible.

That's terrible for us as a society. It is. And let's just remember, it wasn't that long ago when a lot of, and I'm, you know, capital letters, very smart people in the industry and in culture were like, yes, the problem with entertainment is just broadly that it's too long, thus quibby. Like, here's something to sort of chew on. Do you know what people like movies and TV shows? Yeah. They like movies and TV shows. Also, comma, they like funny dance videos on their phone. But you can do all of those things. Right. You know, you can even do them on the

same device. They don't have to be the same thing and speaking to each other. But this is always, you know, it's interesting you say that. This is the language of disruption and innovation and iteration. You know, like, this is the language of like, what if this but that? Yeah. You know, and I don't know whether it's because they pivoted to working with tech companies like Netflix and Amazon. Or maybe because Hollywood Studios became tech companies. That's another valid point. Or like, who is in their tax bracket now. But it is weird. And I don't know.

I mean, what's funny about these guys who we don't know and we certainly don't wish any ill upon, but like they came out of the indie film circuit. Yeah, sure. Right? And then found success, sustained success in kind of really polishing up

and surprising within one of the most high-bound formats of all, which is the sitcom, right? Their episodes of community were in some way, the best end best end game actually end game was the best end game very good movie

but the best case scenario for we're just going to take all of our interests and put them in a Vitamix and make it 21 minutes like that's

that was good it was festive you know this stuff is so dour it's weird to me it's not that I don't think you can be a fan

of Three Days of the Condor and TikTok but I think it's strange Would that be three seconds of the condor? Would that be the condor and TikTok have the same sort of weight of influence on cinema? You know? We're on an audience.

Right, right. I did not expect to be this upset about this. I'm a little upset about it too. I woke you up by making you upset. Yeah, it's, it's, well, you know, we'll get to it when we talk about Andor, but it's just, it's possible to just do good versions of stuff. Like, I know that's not sexy. Yeah, you know what they did?

They did when they produced 21 bridges. And that was, like, as solid and reliably, like, entertaining and fulfilling of a crime thriller as you can honestly make. And they were like, we identified something that Chadwick Boseman does. We're going to make this, like, Robert Aldrich, gritty urban, like, crime drama. It actually didn't pull its punches. It had really, really good performances. And I was like, damn, this is going to be cool. If these guys use all of their leverage to make.

this great, like, kind of middle ground kind of movie that doesn't get made as much anymore. I was like, I'm all for it. And now, I don't, for whatever reason, it just seems like they're, they are literally trying to bankrupt tech companies. Maybe they are, they are like Occupy guys from within. And they're just like, we're just going to make $500 million international spy thrillers that don't make sense. First of all, I love that. That's, that is a really good, do you still, you guys still cranking out the hottest take? Uh, yeah, really are. You think I should do that. you guys still cranking that out?

That's great. You should do that. I guess the other thing that's kind of interesting to me is, and I don't, you know, again, people shouldn't rest on their laurels. People should push forward and do all sorts of, you know, gray men, if that's what's interesting to them. But the template that they created for Marvel is a very successful template, right? And I'm not saying they should have found some other, like, IP universe to just do that in.

But one of the things that Marvel, you could make the argument. And you know what? Because this is a podcast, I will, even if I don't fully, full-throatedly endorse it. Is that one of the things that is contributed- Your version of the hottest take should be, I could make this argument even though I don't endorse. You know I can't lie. I can't lie. You know, one of the things that has bedeviled Marvel over the last few years is replacing their utility, their ability to just be like, yep, this is the thing we're doing.

Now you could obviously also say that it was related to the same. stars that they had in those roles and the story that they've been building to, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, I don't know if Daniel Destin Kretton is the guy who's going to redefine the directorial touch or flare of the Marvel movies. Now, I personally like his movies broadly more than the Russo Brothers movies, but it's a different beast. So, I don't know.

It's interesting, if not existentially depressing, to consider. I have one more piece of news for you. All right. Do you know what the tagline is for mayor of King? Kingstown Season 2? You know I don't. I thought maybe you were like out there and like you had a Kingstown Google alert now because you know how important it is to me.

You know, I think people, you know, honestly I think people were really impressed when I was like one way I'm going to do a TV podcast going forward is not watch very much TV. I feel like that was kind of visionary and people really responded to it. People are talking. So you're like, I don't think I get an upgrade. You're doing an Occupy Wall Street, but like blowing up this podcast from within. Yes, from within.

but I don't, the call is coming from inside the podcast, but only intermittently and sometimes from parking lots. I don't, I don't think I frankly, Chris, I don't think I get enough credit for also unplugging Twitter before it was cool, Ken Olin and all you other big stars dropping out, thus severing my tie to news. You know what I mean? So the only, so I have dipped back on to Twitter recently because I like reading, I like seeing like Philly's Home Run match. Because you find the reporting on the midterm polling really relaxing. It's compelling. Yeah. It's very compelling.

No, I get all my polling information from Senator Mark Kelly's increasingly histrionic emails. He's the one who's going to win, and he is freaking the fuck out. I'm like, dude, you were in space for a year. You were in space for a year and you weren't this nervous. I feel like, anyway, the donations that we make to guys who win should be considered bridge loans. and they should have to pay them back. So, like, if you, if Mark Kelly wins by six,

I feel like we should get, like, 60% of our loan, our donations back. I love that. But wait, what about, like, the woman who ran against Mitch McConnell? Like, what do we do with Amy McGrath? Like, what? I don't know. Amy McGrath owes me.

I don't even know if it's money. But, wait, all of this is to say, I don't know anything about Mayor of Kingston season two. I did see that there's a new everything, but the girl album coming. So that was exciting for me. It's official, I'm going to blow right by that.

It's officially Taylor Time. So, Yellowstone, season five, John Dutton sworn in as governor. That's what's going to happen in that season. We're going to have Governor John Dutton. Who won the Secretary of State election?

Because as we've learned, that's really, who holds the power? Problematically, it's probably his daughter, Beth, who I really would not want in that position. How does she feel about free and fair elections?

Cool, cool of them? Tulsa King, a Taylor Sheridan show broadly, but it was basically a Terrence Winter show starring Sylvester Sloan. That comes, I think, right, I think that is airing with Yellowstone. Can I just, I know this is the biggest buildup ever for you to tell me one thing, but I did see an ad for Tulsa King, not on Twitter, not on Facebook, you know, where I spend most of my time news gathering, but actually during the baseball, which I'm watching. And my main thing is, Chris, Sylvester Stallone is 76 years old.

Yeah, I know. He's like just a hair younger than my mom. This is a show about a very old man. It's not, it's not cry macho though. It's not being presented as like a guy in the senior golden twilight of his years. He is currently, I believe, 26 years older than Wilford Brimley was in Coon. And that was a movie about him being unable or unwilling to leave his chair. Do you know what I mean? Like on the one hand, I'm like, wow, we're doing great. Like we're all doing Pilates now. Like we're all just keeping it fit.

Like we're younger, longer. That's great. You got a mouse in your pocket? Who's doing Pilates? Who's the we in this Pilates scenario? Me and my other friends who do Pilates. Okay. They're here with me.

I'm actually at the studio right now, but that's the sound of the reformers in the background. But Chris, he's really old. Like, that's not going to be addressed. Well, because like in the Taylor Sheridan universe, like we respect the whole spectrum of human existence. You know, it's not just this TikTok, Hercules musical life. It's like,

what do the 76 year olds have to contribute to Tulsa? And it's, it appears to be violence. It appears to be violence. So Yellowstone, Tulsa King, and then 1923,

which sincerely, of all these shows, I probably am most interested in 1923, which is another Yellowstone, uh, sort of Dutton family tale. This one with Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren,

and it's going to be two parts, a two part limited series, of like eight episodes and then another chunk of eight episodes, I believe is the plan. But then the clubhouse favorite is obviously Mayor of Kingston, a show that I think you

gamely tried to watch. The only other person I know in America, aside from Sandonsky, is Shea Serrano, who watched the show in its entirety with me. And it really made me feel very deeply about the prison system in this country, but also just like an absolute wild season of television

that I'm just like, did anybody like just see this before you guys put it on Paramount Plus? And I don't know if you know the end of the first season ended with like a quite a violent prison riot. No. Yes. I would never have predicted that. And the tagline in the teaser for the second season, do you know what it is? I'm ready now.

The riots were just the beginning. I mean, there's a simplicity. You know what I mean? Like you don't need. I just said at the beginning, like people like movies and TV shows. Like, sometimes you don't need to fix things, you know. It harkens back to a bakery in, like,

it's like in midtown Manhattan, there might be more than one. And it was called, I believe it was called Bread's Bakery. And their tagline was, bread is only the beginning. And I was like, I'm very intoxicated by this. Your name is Bread's. You're a bakery. It's already almost redundant.

How long is the story of which bread is the beginning? You know? It's great. Let's stay on the prison theme and talk about Andor. Okay, but can I just put a pin in one thing? I think we did this. What was the other? It was 1880.

You fucked up my segue from Kingstown to Indcandor. It was good. Do you want it, Kai, should we run it back? How do you feel? No, I want you to do your thing. I want you to feel like this is 50% your podcast. For now. Maybe 49%.

I think that's right. I haven't seen the language that Elon presented with me, but I think, wait, what if it was 50% you? Uh-huh. 47% me and 3% Saudi royalty. Where does Kyya forget to this? Oh, Kai is- Is Kyya just an emissary for the Saudi royalty? Yes. Do you remember in your favorite show of last year, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, do you remember when Sharon Carter is revealed to be the power broker?

And we were all like, okay? Right. Kay is the power broker. Gotcha. What was the other, what was the Sam Elliott? one, 1880 what? Two? Three?

You do three. Okay. I feel like we did. It's a huge difference. Huge difference. Huge, huge difference. The country, yeah. I feel like every time one of these shows drops, we need to do our own families.

Like what was our family doing then? Oh, my God. You know what I mean? I feel like we did this bit for 1880, whatever. But I think the 1921 would, I think we need to do that. I got to admit, with the Ryans and the Mazers, I do not know if there was that much a difference between the 1880s and 1920s. Google Ryan family, 1923.

Just see what happens. All right. Okay. Yes. Do the segue again. It was good. Just say, pretend we didn't have this. Hey, Andy, while we're on the topic of prison.

Yeah. How about that episode of Andor? The riots didn't even happen yet. Yeah. In this episode of Andor. Chris, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what more to say.

I think this show, is the best thing on TV right now, certainly. We're about to leave the Earth's gravity, right? Is this the best show of the year? Because I was wondering the same thing. I was wondering whether or not, it's like, have we had Andor in the best in class category? Right?

Like, if I'm going to get a compact car, it's going to be this one. You know, it's like, are we sure Andor isn't the best car? Are we sure Andor is, I mean, obviously, coming off the back of a couple of articles and some speculation about how many people are watching and whether or not it's quote unquote a commercial failure for a company that just needs subscriptions.

Which I think may have been recanted. Maybe that was based on faulty numbers. Well, I don't know if it was recanted. I think anecdotally, I would even say there are Star Wars fans that I know who are like, I'm going to catch up with that for sure. You know, like, but I definitely think that for me, this is my favorite piece of

Star Wars content that I've ever seen. Yeah, me too. And in a, I think, very good year for television with a lot of really, really great shows, we own the city, industry, Barry, et cetera. This is in the conversation for the best. I completely agree. And one of the reasons why...

And Tulsa King. They're a pair, right? You can't really have one without the other. There are a lot of reasons why I think this show is incredible and why this episode just added to the case for it. Just minute by minute, the experience of watching it, the details, the performances, the characters, the richness, et cetera, et cetera.

But I'm trying to find a way to articulate something that I think, I don't think it'd know if it's been overlooked, but I think it's just frankly tough to articulate, which is we are seeing a masterclass in writing for the screen like I don't remember ever seeing on television. I say that not in any way to slight the hundreds, if not thousands of brilliant writers who write the TV shows, the 500 originals a year, some of which we cover. And there are many, many dozens of exceptions to this rule, as I'm going to put forward. But there are certain things that have stayed in their lane, even as TVs and movies have kind of mashed into each other or swap spots in our intellectual imagination.

and some of them just are, I thought we're always going to be this way because of the nature of production. And that is basically even the best TV, not all of the best TV, but some of the best TV is held together with kind of last minute, throw it against the wall, improvisatory, let's hope this works ambition. Now, I think people who make things generally say it's always like that, sure. but some of the best episodes of the year, this year or any year, we've characterized as what a bold swing and we are commending people, and I believe this to be true, I'm not trying to take this back,

like commending people for trying something out there, trying something wild, doing the least expected thing. And we're going to celebrate, I think, this last run of Atlanta episodes for doing just that, you know, in a way that is really bracing and thrilling. But with Tony and his crew, on what floor, fifth floor?

We don't know what's going on on the second floor. They're on the fifth floor. Doesn't seem good. What they're doing here in terms of just A to B to C to D, we are going to calmly

and just apparently effortlessly blow your mind with depth, with characterization, with plotting, with scope, with scale, with professionalism, with design. It feels like a, gift and it feels unlike most television shows, even the best ones. Because this does not have

the same like, oh my God, what are they on at this moment or in this episode or in this season kind of crackle of a madman or a sopranos. And I know, look, we shouldn't compare these things, but they're hour-long TV shows. Ander doesn't have that. It has something that just feels rich. And honestly, I feel like the artistry here is kind of profound, even though there's blue milk serial in it. Yeah, there are so many flourishes, there are so many Gilroyisms that I think are just like obviously on a week-to-week basis so entertaining. I think that the use of, especially in these last couple of episodes, this batch of episodes, the amount of numbers being thrown around. So like in the prison, everybody speaks in terms of, you know, the floor they're on, the amount of

guys that how many racks they're behind, how many days they have left and like that overwhelming amount of sort of numeric information being thrown at you. Then there's like the accounting going on with the Mon Mothba plot, which is essentially like his riff on an intergalactic honorable schoolboy, which is the sequel to Tinker Taylor and is like a notoriously impenetrable plot about a financial link from Moscow to England that is being chased down through Asia by the by the secret service or by by by smiley. And I can't help but feel like this is kind of like an homage to that in some ways. And then on the flip side, you've got the Dedra plot, which is this person who's obsessed with the kind of forensic path

that stolen goods are leading her to and the way that she's able to like weave together the narrative that the Luthan character is obviously trying to obscure but also trying to provoke with. And to me this episode was largely about Cassian and Dedra not getting radicalized but almost like like settling on these two far poles

of the conflict, where Dejra is revealed to be a fascist and a torture in this episode, you know. And Cassian has gone through this experience in prison and is now kind of like, I think, fully embracing this idea of, we have to rebel because the alternative to rebellion is death or essentially enslavement. So there is no choice. And these two people who are operating in this world where these is the sort of, this is what's governing their characters is such a fascinating juxtaposition to me. And he does it so subtly, and he never abandons, how do I also make this an entertaining Star Wars show?

Well, it's also taking, we've said this from the beginning, but he's taking scraps of what was always there and turning them into a five-star gourmet meal. And the last time Tony touched Star Wars was Rogue One. And Rogue One was about the human cost to destroy the Death Star. And the Death Star, and the movies writ large are exactly that. They are writ large. Like the idea of a planet-sized battle station that can destroy a planet is an incredible cinematic idea that has lived with us and haunted us for years and they keep trying to just do it again, Star-killer base or whatever it's going to be called the next iteration. So how do you flip that? How do you actually show some toll? And I think we used this analogy when we first started talking about the show. But memorably, in a new hope,

Alderon explodes. We've never seen the surface of Alderan. Now, we shouldn't. That's some Zach Snyder shit. Like, that's correct for the scale of that movie. But in this movie, in this movie, in this television show, it's important to make the distinction and not accidentally say the other thing. Like, we are methodically and carefully being reminded about the absolute inhumanity of being ground up for parts in this larger system. A galaxy is impossible to rule. An empire is impossible to comprehend. but these five men on a table making endless racks for whatever,

what might be the death star, their lives do matter to them, certainly, to whoever they left behind, and they don't matter, not in the slightest in the view of the empire. And that is really, that's the emotion of this episode. I mean, this is an emotional show. And I would say that in the funny scenes, too.

I mean, the Cyril and his mother scenes are incredible. Yeah. And it's, when we talked to Tony, I think he said, It was important to him that the mother was in the show and he got to do those scenes. Well, yeah, now we see why. Because it doesn't, it's not, people don't end up in those fascist uniforms

all for the same reason. Everybody has their own journey towards choosing a side. Right. Right. And this show has chosen the stories and the people so precisely that it is just, it's exhilarating, honestly. When Vell shows up,

the rich girl. Edmond Moth in his house. Yeah. Yeah. And we're just like, okay. There's layers to. this. There's levels to this and it's it's amazing. I would have been fine if Andor had kept going farther and farther out. I think that there's a version of this show where

there's like a hard break between each block and the characters that we met on ferrics don't show up again and the characters that we meet at the um the raid on aldani don't show up again. And the characters that we meet in this prison sequence don't show up again. I thought maybe that's not unlike how life works. You know, like you have phases of your life and you don't necessarily, especially if you were doing interplanetary travel, you wouldn't keep bumping into the same people. But I think that there's something about the artistry and the craft with which he's weaving together these storylines as he continues to build it out. That's just really, really second and none. And like you said, like I can't imagine you

would say, like, we underrate this show, but I do wonder whether or not it's time to take a step back and be like, what level are we talking about here? You know, maybe this is the best show of the year. I think that also it's just, it's an incredible living lesson in the work of screenwriting because so much of it is either doing it by yourself or being in a room with people and saying, okay, we know, because we've broken the episodes, we've blocked out the season, we know that, hypothetically, DEDRA and Vicks cross-passed. We know the status of each in that moment, and we know broadly the stakes.

And they also know how it's going to turn out. The work of the writer, or the writers in this case, is how can we get from what we, from A, the beginning of the story to be the end of the story that we know in a way that will surprise or that will take full advantage of this opportunity, you know? And every time this show makes an exciting choice, every time the show makes an exciting choice, not just for the sake of surprising us or upending or whatever, because look, it's not a surprising story that the fascist torture is going to get the information

from the poor, you know. Yeah, nor is it going to be a surprising story that this guy Cassian is going to get to the place in his head where he sacrifices his life for a rebellion. Exactly. But the music, the poetry is in those in-between spaces. And so for it to be, and I want to say again, It's not just that Dr. Gorsd is a character

played by this grinning boyish figure who I believe we've seen on industry. I think he's the HR person, yeah. So he's a torture just across the board. Yeah. I don't, by the way, no disrespect to my friends and human resources. I meant torture because of what he does on industry.

But so already that's a choice. It's not what you expect. It's a fresh-faced, eager, innocent-looking person. and then it leans into the Star Warsiness of it. I feel like that's also important to note because I think that if there are, you know, there's seen people be like, oh, well, is this really Star Wars

because there's no lightsabers or there's no aliens or whatever? Well, no, it's still Star Wars because the genesis of this unique torturing system is the non-humanoid death rattles and screams of an alien race wiped out by the empire. So they're leaning into the potential, the potential of the material

and giving us something we haven't seen. before. I mean, it, is it, is it, it, it might be the best show of the year because in that moment, I am both horrified and emotionally invested and also really fucking excited at how clever this whole thing is. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably

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Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. So I think that this is an okay place to actually pivot to Atlanta because there are examples of two different kinds of ways you can tell a TV story. Not the only two ways, but two different ways. Andor is obviously one central novel. It's essentially like one story with a lot of different story.

different satellites that are kind of now crossing each other's paths. And the sort of succinct, seamlessness with which each of these settings in Andor has its own tonal visual language, but for the most part the show itself has a very coherent vibe, for lack of a better term. And then Atlanta is an example of what happens when you kitchen sink it. And I don't mean kitchen sink at all or, you know, just see what sticks. but you say this show can be horror, broad comedy, spoof, probing adult, midlife crisis drama, anything you can think of.

This is almost what I would refer to as like a bucket show. And I weirdly started thinking of this idea of shows around billions because I was like, this is like Copplement and Levine's place to put anything that they want. Sports fandom, music fandom, food fandom, everything that they kind of think and like kind of goes into this. it's this show with these guys in New York and but I'm also have a bunch of different stuff in it. Atlanta, I don't know if it's like, I would call it like a bucket show

where it's like everything that they're interested in goes in here. I think that they're definitely trying to reflect on a number of things through the lens of this show like the Glover brothers and the other creators Stephanie Robinson, everybody's working on the show Hero. But it's interesting to watch how you can take a step back.

So now we've gotten eight episodes, I believe, of this show. This pod goes up on Thursday, another episode will go up tonight we haven't seen yet. And you can kind of like look back at this season and be like, man, no episode is the same. What these episodes are saying are in harmony with one another, but not

necessarily reading from the same sheet music. And some of my favorite episodes of Atlanta, I think, have come out of this season. Yeah. I'm sort of wrestling with my own permutation, It's just like, I think we both had talked about and we talked about it week to week,

the struggles with season three or some aspects of season three. The beginning of the season, I still felt a little, I was left a little cold by, and I was little confused by, and then I let it lie. Like I did keep up

and then fell behind by about two weeks and then three weeks, actually, and then just caught up. And, you know, look, all hottest take jokes aside, like we do this podcast in the moment, and we do it twice a week, and we almost never watch ahead.

That did a disservice, I think, to this show this year. And maybe even last year, too, if we ever have the luxury of rewatching season three or watching it in the context of a finished show, this deserves to be processed, I think, more entirely as a piece. Even despite the nature of it, where everything, every episode can be different. It can leave you feeling a little fractured

and spun around and not connected to a larger thing. But look, I don't know. exactly what to pin it on, but there's a point in the Kirkwood Chocolate episode, sort of a quite broad at times, I think, a parody of, you could say the Tyler Perry Enterprises. That episode's called Work Ethic, it was the fifth one. Work ethic. The moment when Van gets to Mr. Chocolate's office, that suddenly, and I don't know this was just my experience watching it, I believe it's when she throws, when he offers her, he's playing the keyboard piano typewriter

that Steve Jobs built for him and he offers her a grit. When I busted out laughing and I was like, I remember these guys. I remember this show. I remember this feeling that I have right now of like elevating outside of my body watching it being like, oh my God, anything is possible. And I'm so excited that they're driving us there. And that feeling had been absent from a lot of my watches. And that show, this is the thing I always come back and say.

They don't deserve any kind of entertainment from the show. The thing that makes it Atlanta is that they don't care about what I think week to week or about moment to moment. But what was really driven home to me by these last three or four truly exceptional, like God-tier, all-time Hall of Fame Atlanta episodes that the show has given us, they don't care what I think, but they really fucking care. And I just feel like that's a really important distinction to make because it's not like just splatter art.

Like we're just going to have fun with our opportunity here. Especially these last two episodes that were emotionally just sucker punches. Like just really, really devastating in a lot of ways. And when you say these last two, do you mean the mockumentary and snip hunt? Or are you referring to crank that? Okay. I thought crank that was one of my favorite episodes of Atlanta of all times. time.

Yeah, and you know what? Honestly, like, watching Crank that in the wake of Takeoff's death is a completely different episode. I mean, it speaks to the prescience of this show without the show being heavy handed with that prescience. Absolutely. And then into Snipe Hunt and the, was it the goof who, what's the name of the episode? I should have in front of me.

Oh, it's the goof who sat by the door. The goofy sat by the door, which is itself a reference to a movie that was at the time, very controversial, the spook who sat. by the door, which sort of, which is based, the plot of the movie, if you're not familiar with it, is that for a publicity stunt, the U.S. government starts training black men as CIA operatives, but they're never actually going to let them join the CIA. And then one of the people who makes it into the program is a militant black separatist who takes the skills the CIA taught him to wage war against the American government in a way that the American government had been waging war on

black communities. Right. So, anyway, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the emotional wallop of these last two episodes was at a valence that like the fact that the show can do this and go there was really profound to me and it made me you know look this is the podcasters lament it made me sad that I didn't have the perspective of these episodes when I had the feelings that I had about the first ones of the season but that's just the nature of the way we talk about it but like the thing about the show that has always to me been its North Star is it's always a like Brian Tyree Henry's face, you know, which I just think he's the greatest actor. And in The Crank That Killer Episode, which is bonkers funny for a lot of it. Like, just insanely funny that it is about people who mistakenly did Soldier Boy cranked that videos. And Soldier Boy himself is in it. And then there's the whole plot with the sneakers and the guy just wants to see them kiss.

Like, there's so much in it. But Brian Tyree Henry's face as Alfred, when he's just, no matter how high he goes, this shit, happens. You know, this happens. There's something that is so, so profound about the humanity that he carries in his face. And then we get to these last two episodes, which, you know, we're Erne Van Gogh camping. And there's this, it's beautiful. And there's no extra beat, really. I mean, the snipe itself thing is kind of funny in very Atlanta, but it's not like, there's the throwaway line in the beginning where she's like, what's the percentage chance this guy's going to kill us? And he's like 8%. We're like, oh, is this the episode? Are they going to be hunted? Is this, is this like some of the more

extreme stuff from season three. And it's no, it's that he loves his family. And he wants to be with his family. And he just wants, that's what he wants, despite all of the other insanity of the world in his career. And then it's B-side as this mockumentary episode, which is just so crazy in its conception and execution and getting Disney to sign off on all of it.

And the takeaway from that episode, right? And I even wrote it down is that idea that more than anything else, this fictional president of Disney, black president of Disney, what he wanted to do with his goofy movie was show something true. He wanted to show, and this is a quote, black folks living their lives, being funny, being free, being real. And that's the project, right? Yeah, yeah.

That's the project of Atlanta, both in front of the cameras and behind the scenes. And man, it just landed. It just landed. And you can consider, as we have well within your rights to look at the last 15 episodes of this show and ask, like, what is this about? you know, like, because I think there is conditioning in place to say, Earn makes reference to basically their experiences in Europe in Snipe Hunt. And that's like one of the first, I think, references to there is a season three in these people's lives,

you know, that there was this experience of them being in Europe. So there's not a ton to like hang your hat on when it comes to the traditional bones of like, what is the arc of this television series and how are they concluding this story? Yeah, they're concluding it by showing Earn perhaps finally in a good way outgrowing Atlanta, wanting to move to Los Angeles, wanting to bring his family with him,

kind of settling into being good at what he does, you know, and wanting that to be like his identity and being a father and being a partner with Van. You know, but like where Darius stands in it and what's happening at the current moment in Paperboy's career, which seems steady, if not, if not spectacular. He needs a safe farm. Right. Right. He needs a safe farm. I don't know. It's just, it's, it's a one of one. I've been thinking a lot about the legacy of this show and I've thinking a lot about it debuting, I believe in 16, um, right around the time of Fleabag,

you know, and Fleabag and Atlanta really opening my eyes at least to, a lot of what was possible with a 30-minute, roughly, run time and what you could do with the genre, what you could do with tone, and what you could do with storytelling in TV. And Fleabag's mission was so concise. You know, Fleabag was just like, what, what is there, like four hours or eight hours of Fleabag total? Basically. Yeah.

And Atlanta has been much more sprawling and much more adventurous. And, you know, I'm curious to know about the world in which Atlanta is eight episodes. long and I'm curious to know about the world in which Fleabag is 40 episodes long. They're not the same thing, but I've been thinking a lot about how TV changed around then and

what this show's legacy and its influence is going to wind up being. Well, I think two things. I think you're right to point out the rare moments of the show talking to itself, and I'll just say within this season, the earned therapy episode, I think it was the last time we kind of aggressively talked about it,

is directly connected to Nightpun. This was character development, you know, and I think that it's so unfamiliar in many ways in the show, at least in a traditional way. Not that it was needed, but it wasn't something that we were familiar with them doing, that suddenly them doing it felt really surprising, as surprising as the scene where all the European people eat human hands, right? Like that, the show can surprise you in all kinds of ways.

And I thought that was really powerful to consider that, oh, this is something that they've had the ability to do, and they've chosen when and where to do it. and that this idea of leaving Atlanta has become the mantra of these last few episodes. But when you talk about what the legacy of the show is, I think this episode eight, now we haven't seen nine and ten in this season, I think that's what this is about. I mean, Donald Glover directed this one. No cast members appear in it. Jenna Wortham appears in it.

So Brian McKnight appears in it, which is also very Atlanta. But it is this show. such a profound way where it's just like here's something so outlandish so balzy so all the way going for it in the like yeah we're going to have sinbad in this episode we're going to animate moments from this fictional goofy movie we're going to do these things but ultimately what it's saying is like it is really really i mean the black experience is that's not our subject matter to really weigh in on but that it is a complex and fully lived in and challenging,

it's a fully lived in challenging experience to be black in America, being black in Europe as season three. You showed us, this is not our subject matter to necessarily weigh in on, or it doesn't matter what our opinions on it are, but it is presenting it as such a perpetually changing, emotional, complicated, challenging, fully lived in experience. And to be creative within that can be extremely hard. as well to maintain your humanity and be creative and be exceptional. And I just thought that

that was kind of an amazing. If the show ended with eight, honestly, I would say that's one of the most powerful finale I've ever seen. Oh my God. Can you imagine if that have been the season series finale? You know, we've talked about this before, how one of the things about some prestige shows is they get multiple shots at the end day. You know, Breaking Bad did it, better call Saul did it to a degree. these two seasons of Atlanta were given as a single season order and I think everybody involved knew this was going to be it so in a way they've been ending since they came back

right if this isn't like family ties being like well we'll just get me Bonsol add him to the cast you know that this is not the world we live in anymore but I mean this could have been I just mean this could be this would have been an incredible incredible epitaph for the show and I think Donald Glover's life over the length and breath of the show going from who he was at the start

to who he appears to be now. And I was really moved by it. And I feel really happy to have these episodes. And I feel foolish that it took me a second to catch up to them. I really look forward to talking about these last couple episodes of Atlanta with you, these last couple of episodes of Andor with you. On our last couple episodes of The Watch, right? And a whole new season of Taylor Time on this podcast.

And I expect you to watch 50 episodes of Yellowstone get in the game. Who are your co-host going to be? for the Tulsa King pods. Like, who are you going to get? You digging into the Rolodex? We'll see. We'll see. I don't even know if we're going to be doing that.

Andy, it was great to talk to you. And we will be back on Monday talking White Lotus and other things. So until then, I hope everybody has a great weekend. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing us. And we'll talk to you soon.