The Watch - Andy’s Big News, Plus an Interview With the Creator of ‘Black Earth Rising’ | The Watch (Ep. 324)

Episode Date: January 25, 2019

Andy tells us what it's like to have his show ‘Briarpatch’ picked up by USA Network (0:39). Plus: an interview with Hugo Blick, the creator of the Netflix show ‘Black Earth Rising,’ which is about the aftermath of the Rwandan genocide (32:22). Host: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Hugo Blick Read more about ‘Briarpatch’ here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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to check out Palm for yourself. I need supports to have to clear the room Stand up and walk Now Hello and welcome to the watch My name is Chris Ryan I am an editor at the Rigger.com And joining me on the other line

He loves to see his name on Deadline.com It's Andy Greenwald Ooh, that could go so many different directions I know That's the best comedy Is so open to interpretation You know?

Dangerous Andy Huge huge huge huge news today. Matt Smith will co-star with Jared Leto in Sony's Spider-Man spin-off Morbius! That's fair. You got me.

That's huge. What's up, man? How are you doing today? Obviously, everybody, I hope if you're following the Andy Greenwald Chronicles, you know that it was announced today that Andy's show Breyer Patch starring Rosario Dawson will be going to

series. It's wild. It's wild. This has been something that I've known for a bit, and I was not allowed to talk about it, and I am overwhelmed and overjoyed that it is now public. And we can talk about it. And we can say that I'm not at an offsite. I'm calling you from my office because there's a writer's room. Which is just a few, just a little couple blocks away from where we are, but we're divided by now.

You're on the other side of the industry entirely. Yes. What kind of line is it? It's not the thin blue line of police work. is it the gaudy velvet rope? Yeah, it's like the invisible wall. I don't know. It's something like that.

And so, Andy, give me like a sense of what's the best, like, text message you got today? Well, I think there's only one place to go, which is the email from my father taking great umbrage at the Hollywood reporter article calling the show Sam S.M.S. M.S. Breyer Patch. Which, you know, fair. but also I am deeply, deeply glad that it is saying. My goal is for it to be Sam S. M. S. M. S. M. Pryor Patch right up until the point when people like it, in which point it could be mine. But if they don't like it, it can remain that Sam S.M.S.M.

That's right. You were just doing his soundtrack. His bidding. An original soundtrack by you too for perpetuity. That's what it could be. Now, at the end of Breyer Patch, do we find out what your Octung Baby's theory is? Well, that's going to be in the web series. You know, one thing that people don't might not appreciate is,

for all the good ideas we're coming up with here in the room, like some of them we're just not going to get to, and that's what the web series is for. Now, where the web series will air, I'm not going to share that publicly yet. Like on the web? Rest assured. On the dark web.

It's going to be on, like, yeah, it's going to be on tour. This is crazy. You've known about this for a while. You've known that this was going to go forward for a while. But not as long as I've known. Yeah. And it's not because I just believed in Andy,

which I do. I do believe in Andy. But it was because, I was told by the creator and writer of Breyer Patch, Sam Esmail. I was told by Sam that this was 99% going to happen and that he wanted to do some kind of, you know, like basically a podcast stunt. He wanted to come on the watch and announce to Andy that his show had been greenlit by the powers of be at USA and everything.

There's one piece of this that I think we also need to lead with, which is that Sam told you this and didn't tell me. So you knew before I did. I did. And also, I believe, Kaya knew before you did. Liz Kelly here at the Ringer knew. Probably half the Ringer staff, a couple of just random members of the people who work at Sunset Gowero Studios knew before you did. Everyone at the Ringer knew before I did.

That's right. I believe Ringer founder Bill Simmons found out moments before I did. and the most galling thing about, and there are a lot of galling things about this, and I shouldn't bury the lead. I believe, and I am appalled, but I believe that the sadists at the Rigger Podcast Network, led by Kaya, are going to share the audio

of me finding out that my show is greenlit live on mic. Yes, so we had Sam come in for our annual year-end podcast, and at the end of the show, as you guys may remember, if you were very, very avid, close listeners, you may remember that it seemed to have somewhat of an abrupt ending, the end of our year-end podcast. It was a very long show, a lot of incredible content in there. But at the end, we wrapped things up somewhat quickly,

and there was a reason for that. Yes, and the reason for it was Sam's grand plan. Now, I know that people think that Sam S-Mail must be slightly obsessive due to the intricate plotting on such shows as Mr. Robot or Homecoming. that is that you have no idea because really the only thing that he seems to that seems to motivate him over these past two months has been micromanaging this particular episode of the watch it's been unreal and and i want people to understand that his desire to do this to me on the microphone it didn't just involve telling chris and the rigor support staff first it didn't just involve having executives from USA and the studio UCP hidden in a back room to surprise me in person on the podcast. It's that everyone knew this decision was made before Thanksgiving except me. And he told everyone not to tell me when I flew to Philadelphia to be with my family because

he wanted to tell me on the microphone. P.S. I hate surprises. So I'm mortified. Yeah. I remain mortified. I wish this footage and audio was thrown in a river or perhaps a bonfire. But I remain deeply.

I'm very thankful, I guess. I'm still mad, but I'm great. I forgive, but I don't forget. We're going to take a listen to this audio from our year-end pod with Sam that was recorded in November so that you can hear the moment that Andy found out that his show is going to be on TV. Look, this breaks the friends and family category. Oh. Because it is, but this is the problem with this show, because this is a caveat, is it's not a show.

It's just a pilot. Oh. But it's a really, really good one. but I can't you know I can't put it on the list because you know it's not necessarily it's not it's not it's not picked up

Sam's talking about the middle spin off the one about Sue Huck ABC just passed on it I mean look it's called Briar Patch and the performances are amazing yeah Chris has seen it Chris has seen it I gave some notes

so I do have to talk about this the performances are amazing you know the writing the directing is amazing and I'm just so excited and it would have totally totally, totally, totally been on the number one list here

if it had been a season of television and, you know, I don't know why it's not a season of television. Yet? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, as of right now, it's just a one. Are you getting that?

I'm hearing like a buzz. That's just my discomfort with praise. Sorry. I had to do something. I had to do. Oh, wait. Hold on a second.

What the fuck? What is going on here? Hold on a second. What the fuck. Wait, for some reason, the network executives at USA are here. Alex, sit down, Alex. And then Elise Henderson is also here. Hey, so you guys.

I was just in neighborhood. I was here for the hot secession takes. I don't know if you guys ever done that. Okay. All right. And so, wait a minute. So, it's so funny that you guys walked in just now because. Well, because I was just saying that if Breyer Patch, you know, because it's just a pilot right now,

but had it been a season of television, probably would have been number one. I'm just wondering, is there anything you can say to that? It's a great pilot, and pilots are nice, but we're really excited to announce that Briar Patch is going to be a show on USA Network. Whoa! Wait, wait, wait, the one that Andy, Greenwald. That's the one. Since you're here, Alex, is, what's the status of treadstone? Wow.

Wow, this is insane. Wait, so this is a live pickup to this here. Has this ever been done before? We think we're making history here. This is podcast history. Are you sure? You're absolutely, you're confident about this decision? No, it's official.

USA Network? in association with and Paramount and Paramount and Esmail Corp yeah well yeah is it weird

to want to throw up and cry at the same time so it's good time to an Albuquerque Andy this is I guess the end of the watch podcast wow guys Andy talk about what's going

on this should we put on a journey to be excited yeah where is my YouTube I told you it's not fair to use. So I specifically, I disagree with you, Chris. I really wanted beautiful day. Guys, if you're listening, please play Beautiful Day by you two to this moment right now.

I am really losing it. No, talk about how you're feeling right now. What's going on? What's going through your mind? Yeah. This is what Super Bowl coaches must feel like. I feel totally overwhelmed and grateful and just feel like that was really fucking cruel. I told you it's my

EP style Do you guys want the genuine response? Yes, this is the dream of my whole This is, no, it's good, that's why I'm ready to do it. This is the total dream of my life And I can't believe I get to do it with you guys Who have made this whole experience so amazing I'm really honored.

I'm really fucking excited And I'm really freaked out All right, well, how do you end these things again? I can't remember because I... It's great job, Branskins. Wait, what is it? What is it, Andy? I mean, I don't, I don't, I know it, Chris.

I'm trying to tee up Andy here. Oh, you want me to say it? Well, I mean, I think you are. This was a great job, Branski. This is the best podcast I've ever been part of. All right, Greenwald, we're back. Tell me the thing you're most excited about doing right now where it comes to the show.

Is it getting back to Albuquerque and hitting all the restaurants you missed? Or is it getting to work with avowed Cowboys fan, Jay Ferguson? what's the top of your list? I think number one is no longer having to field signal messages from Sam Smail about the status of the clip that was just heard. That's really going to free up a lot of time for me just to be more creative and be more productive in my job. I don't mean to sound I'm grateful. I have to be clear, like this is the dream of my lifetime and this is the greatest thing.

And I'm so happy. But I don't like surprises. I'm still reeling. Honestly, that everything has been great, but the most exciting thing. thing and people who've been listening for a long time know this and have heard you say this in different contexts. But writing is hard work and lonely work. And this adaptation of Briar Patch has existed, you know, I wrote the script two years ago. And to be alone with it and to be, you know, be alone with the break of the season and the pitch for the whole season and the characters that I gave to the studio and then to the network, to be alone with it was, you know, exciting, but also very daunting.

And the most thrilling thing has been to have the thing that I always wanted, which is a writer's room. And we have six brilliant people in here with me. And to be able to share both the burden and the opportunity of creating a story to bring their perspectives and points of view on the world and on the characters and just their own lives is everything that I wanted to be. It's truly fun. It is a great joy and a great privilege. And that's been great. Have you adopted David Milch's writing screen? plays by speaking them out loud while lying on your back style?

I will say that I have been mostly vertical, but I do have a couch-based room because I know what's coming. Right. I do think that you also hit at one of the biggest issues here, which is the brilliant Jay Ferguson, people know from Madman, we just recently talked about him on the Romanoffs. He is one of the stars of the show. He is a true man. She's a wonderful guy.

He is also a Dallas Cowboys fan to the point of abstraction. It is so disturbing. And I couldn't say this on the podcast, but when he came in to record ADR, which is when you do additional pickups, like for lines that got dropped or whatever, when we were doing posts. And the Monday he was coming in was the day after the Cowboys

Beed the Eagles in Philadelphia. And I thought, well, at the very least, he'll be in a good mood. And I did not expect he showed up to the studio on the Universal lot wearing festoon head to toe in an official Dallas Cowboys, snuggy that actually went up past his big beard and he was so cozy in it and it was so gross. And then when he finally took it off, he was wearing also a jersey, a Cowboys jersey underneath it.

And the fact that we can get along gives me hope for a divided nation. Like maybe the government can reopen. I know. Maybe Nancy and Donald can reach across the aisle. We have a couple of other things today. I guess I'll probably wind up having to mention this at the beginning. But I talked to Hugo Blick, who is one of our favorite. favorite TV creators. He made the new Netflix show Black Earth Rising, which is coming out on Friday, I guess Thursday night, depending on how avidly you check Netflix. And so that's really exciting.

That shows really, really, really interesting. And, you know, I'm sure we'll have a lot to say about that in the coming weeks. We talked so much about Honorable Woman. But I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you if you had any takes on the Oscar nominations, my guy. I know it's a little bit awkward now because you're on the other side of things. Yeah, right. Right. You know, I'm in the Spiderverse now. I felt, well, look, I'm thrilled about a couple things, right? Like, I'm thrilled about Roma's recognition. I'm really surprised, heartened, and thrilled by the favorite being so highly recognized. That's the kind of movie that I just think is so brilliant, and I was fully expecting for it to be ignored in the unfortunate way that, say, Beale Street was mostly ignored.

But I guess I have two points. One is what were they going to nominate for popular film had they kept that terrible idea? I think Quiet Place and I think Crazy Rich Asians and I think Endgame, I mean, I think Infinity War would have been there. I think that you would have had, I wonder if they'd done popular movie, they would have done Best Picture and it would have been Roma, favorite, vice, and one more. and then popular film would have been Bohemian, Quiet Place, Black Panther, Avengers, and you take your pick,

Mary Poppins or something. Like it would have been those five. And then they would have had five artier films as the best picture. It's just so crazy and wrongheaded that they don't even understand their own industry to realize that nominating Black Panther for Best Picture next to Roma

is a sign of a much healthier creative industry. Absolutely. know, that these are not in any way similar in terms of their content or even their potential reach or audience, certainly not in their box office, but in the sense of like successfully executing an artistic vision from start to finish, those are good examples, you know, for this year and representative of a robust industry that can make both, right? Like that, I find that stuff much more cheering than the sort of desultory, like, I guess Bohemian Rhapsody is one of the best pictures of the year, which is sort of bizarre. And then the green book thing,

it just feels so deeply reactive. And maybe you can make a case that nominating Black Klansman and Black Panther is reactive, too, to do other previous oversights in the academy and the culture. But it's bizarre. And it's bizarre to me, but I guess I'm sure I know Sean Fantasy has spoken about this, and I know that you and Amanda have, I'm sure, a much more in-depth insightful conversation about this than whatever I'm offering now. But it definitely is reflective of a very fractured cultural psyche in this country right now.

And, you know, I think that the Oscars are kind of, they remind me now at this point of like a massive sports franchise. They're definitely in need of some kind of like process style breakdown and build back up. And do they just announce today that they're not going to be having the best original song performed on the awards? Nor are they going to be giving out a bunch of the technical side awards that I think people really, you know, people who actually care about the Oscars, care about who wins those. what happens when people win those. And it's just increasingly seeming like no host, no musical performances, this kind of like underlying feeling of what are we doing here,

that it needs kind of like a tear down and reconstruction almost. Like I don't really know, I'm looking forward to it because I'm curious to see how it plays out, but I'm not looking forward to it as an event as much as I used to. It's super weird to me. It does seem to be, especially without a host, like it does seem, it seems to be in crisis. And I say that because, again, weird flails like that briefly considered popular film category, it does seem like that they don't even know what their own value is anymore, which is particularly ironic considering the criticism that I kept making year after year when

I had to review the Oscars as a show was that that aspect of it that always rankled me, the sort of like, we're movies and we matter. And here, we're going to remind you why we matter. And that always felt weirdly insecure to me because you're the Oscars, you know. But clearly, they don't know why they matter. And they're very freaked out. about if they will matter. And the response to that, confusion seems to be giving, instead of giving a show,

giving a shrug emoji, you know, like no host, no musical performances. That said, the only other thing I wanted to mention, you know, snubs are,

I don't know if snubs are always worth having a conversation, but Ethan Hawk not being nominated, really is a bummer. Yeah. It really is a bummer. I mean, he is,

by all accounts, you know, in his interview with our friend, Zach Barron, he talked about how you really wanted it and would love it. his performance is incredible in First Reform. First Reformed is one of the best movies of the year. It's a shame there wasn't room for him, although that movie was recognized for screenplay.

Similarly, whatever you felt about if Beale Street could talk, Barry Jenkins is just an astonishing director and particularly James Laxton, the cinematographer. Yeah, I talked about that with Amanda about how disappointing it was that Laxon didn't get nominated. That movie is so beautiful. But, you know, look, we're saying that a minute after saying that a category like cinematography might not even be on the telecast. We don't know. I don't know if that's the case.

But that's confusing. So what is your dispatch from movie island? Because you know, as our audience knows, you go to movies. You may have more, you have a fresher take than I do. I think that I'm just more, like, my thing was more about, like, why can't the capital of show business figure out how to put on a pageant, you know? Yeah. And it just seems like they're tripping over themselves a little bit here.

And I think I'm secretly dreading the next six weeks of Green Book. You know what I mean? And the idea that we're going to publicly litigate this. You mentioned a couple weeks ago or last week, I think, about just kind of feeling bad that, like, Marhershal Ali is getting dragged through this as he's going through this process, and he's probably going to win supporting actor. But it'll be really fascinating to see the slings and arrows and whether or not it takes Green Book down from its sort of perch.

It's assumed perch after the Golden Globes, because as of like, Monday, when I talked with Amanda on the big picture, I was looking at the betting markets, and it seems like Roma and Corone are very heavy favorites. So that all the attention on Green Book might not result in the Green Book win? Yes. Or that it really is between, or is this one of those situations where, you know, there are seven very different movies nominated, but that it does seem that people are going to really turn this into a binary and squat up, and it's either Roma or Green Book.

Right. Which is sort of... Which has happened in the past few years where there's just like you're their team this, or your team that. Yeah. I mean, does that leave the potential for like the favorite

winning? Like sneaking, you know what I mean? Like something. I mean, I don't understand the preferential ballot enough to know that.

You know what I mean? Because I think that there's all that stuff with the thing that gets voted second the most could be the thing that wins in the end. Especially if there's a binary

like you're talking about between Green Book and the next favorite movie. I personally think Roma is going to win and I think Quarone's going to win. I think, Green Book will probably win screenplay. Yeah, because the thing to remember, I mean, last year was sort of weird with the fish fucking movie, but in general, like, for all the hand-wraing.

That is the most precious currency in Hollywood. For all of the hand-wragging over it and all of this sort of like, oh, the Academy's so old and so out of touch and all the voters really liked was, you know, uplifting biopics or they like, you know, the old-fashioned sort of white savior vision of race relations that is Greenbook. like Moonlight won best picture. Like that really happened, you know. The Oscars do get it right sometimes, you know? Yeah. And that is kind of an amazing thing in and of itself. I wish that this whole season,

we've spent the last few years in award season, sort of talking about how dispiriting it is, that the subtext has just become the only text, that the campaign season and the backstabbing and backbiting, that's always been part of it, is now the story in order to fuel the 24-7 interest in it. I sort of feel like it's even worse that this ceremony this year feels like an asterisk because they've given up on it. You know, they haven't, in the sense of no host, no this, no that.

It just feels already tainted even when a movie as masterful as Roma or as brilliant as the favorite is going to be recognized. Even if it's not recognized with a trophy, those movies should be celebrated. Before we get going, Andy, I think we should probably do a little bit of housekeeping. So probably people are wondering what the announcement of your show means for the future of our show. and I want to get in front of that train, Chris, and I want to let people know that I will be available for House of Carbs episodes when at the drop of a hat. Don't think I don't notice that like you have all these like

scheduling caveats and like I can do it on the harvest moon on a Wednesday and then when House is like I saw an episode of Chopped, would you like to discuss you're here with bells on? I will come in on a weekend to talk about a chef with Joe. I'm like, hey man, did you watch sex education? You're like, I have daughters, sir. And then when it's just like, house is like, some guy made a bacon, egg and cheese and her croissant on chopped.

You're like, please, let's do a long form podcast about it. I feel like I'm stewing in wet chicken when I try to have these conversations with you. But I want to talk about cooking with you. I'll talk about food all day long. It's just going to be on my terms. You know, me and my wife have been making that Alison Roman coconut stew. Oh. You did the stew?

Hashtag the stew. The stew. The first one was great. Then we tried to make double the proportions because we were like, let's have it for like the week. And it got watery, man. There's something about my kitchen that just induces water into my cooking. And when I see my cooking, my wife's going. Maybe it's the humidity.

No, I would not imagine a real interruption in the usual banter that you've come to know and love from the watch podcast. There will be times where Andy's not available. there will be times where Andy's just checking in and dropping some mind jewels on us rather than participating in the full rigors of the podcast. But for the most part, I think you're still going to be my partner.

Yes. Small caveat to that, no. And I'm sorry to break it to you on the air. No, you're absolutely right. I think everyone should know that... I would spit water out. Let me throw a little water on the proceedings. Sam S. Mail is a believer in Briar Patch. He's an executive producer of Breyer Patch, but his true passion is being the ombudsman of the watch, and I don't think he would have allowed this to happen if he knew it would interrupt this podcast permanently. As Chris said at the beginning, I am in Hollywood, I'm in the office, we're in the writer's room, I'm nearby. I still have takes and opinions and thoughts, you know, how my opinions about shows or what I say about them, how that changes now that I'm doing this full time. We can talk about that too, but I am here. As Chris,

I might be remote. I might just be checking in. We don't go into production until May, in which point I'll be in Albuquerque. And I'm sure you'll be visiting me, right, buddy? Absolutely. I think every other weekend, maybe. I'll get a Nintendo Switch.

It'll be fine. Our producer, Kaya, she just told me before we went on the air here, that her favorite piece of internet content currently is the Facebook group thread about who should replace you, which includes, and correct me if I'm wrong, Kaya, includes Jason Mansuchas and Sam Esmail, who I think are somewhat busy,

that your absence means the end of the watch, which is a tough beat for your boy, and a variety of other suggestions. You know what? The ringer is open for business, man. So if anybody out there thinks that they can do better than Andy or me, for that matter, by all means, there's that Facebook thread. Kaya's definitely reading, even if my self-esteem can't handle it. I'm pitching hard for the gritty reboot of this podcast.

I think this podcast needs an origin story. I think Miles Taylor and Ansel. Straight up, there's a thread that's like Chris and Andy are aging out and they need to bring in like young blood to take over. You know, honestly, sometimes the way I feel about this podcast is the same way I felt about moving to Park Slope, Brooklyn, at age 22, which is it's actually low-key smart to move to a place that's pre-washed. Yeah. Because then you never have any waves to ride. And I kind of feel like people who signed up for this podcast, you know, they can tell. like our dedication to the, you know, a table of contents, let's say, or recurring bits,

they know, they know what they signed up. They waver. Yeah, exactly. In good stead. We love doing the show. We do the show when we talk to each other on the phone, even if there are a microphone. So this isn't going anywhere. There may be some interruptions, but we're going to see how it goes.

And it's going to be very exciting. I'm very excited. And in all honesty, I'm extremely, extremely grateful and appreciative of you, Buddy. space you've given me to do this and the accommodations you've made, you know, the way that you pretended not to have taken down notes on the guest hosts or host replacements, I thought that was very well played. But really, you've let me do this, which is amazing. And I'm going to return the favor. I'm here. And if people do have questions about this process, you know, I'm excited to talk about it. This has been a roller coaster and a lot of new things and a lot of fun things. And, you know,

However much I can show what's going on behind the curtain without giving it at all. Without alienating Cowboys Twitter. I talked to Jay yesterday for the first time since both our seasons ended, and I felt like the offseason is our on season. Like we can be friends now again. Right. Because it's otherwise pretty hardly. All right, Andy, we're going to get to this interview with Hugo Blick in just a minute

after a word from our sponsors. Congratulations. I know I speak on behalf of all the watch listeners in that it could not have happened to a more deserving party. Thanks, buddy. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Branskys. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Microsoft Surface. The new Microsoft Surface Pro 6 can help you get things done. Whether you're on the field or running a business, take Brian Arakpo and Michael Griffin, two former NFL teammates who have opened a cupcake shop.

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We're about to get into my interview with Hugo Blick, the writer and director of the new Netflix show, Black Earth Rising. Now, you may know Hugo's name because Andy and I say it all the time. Why? Because we're huge fans of his work. He's done two of my favorite shows over the last 10 years or so, which are Shadow Line,

which is mostly a show people in the UK are familiar with, which start Chillytale, Ejafour, Rafe Spall, Christopher Eccleston, and it was just this incredible crime drama. And then in 2014, Hugo did The Honorable Woman, starring Maggie Gillen Hall, which was one of me and Andy's favorite shows from the last few years. It's been a couple of years since then, obviously, and he's been hard at work on this show, Black Earth Rising, which I can safely say is unlike anything I think I've seen on television before. It is one of the most intellectually challenging and politically dense shows I've seen maybe ever. I don't know. The density and the volume of ideas at work here is going to be a

challenge, but I think a huge reward, a very rewarding challenge for viewers. This is the story of a woman named Kate Ashby, who is played by Michaela Cole, who works as a, a, an investigator for a London Law Office, and she's brought into the world of the international criminal court at the Hague, where she is working on a case involving the Rwandan genocide. And it brings up issues of her own heritage and of her own past and of her own identity. And it also has huge questions about international law, colonialism, and what it means to say you're from a place.

and in typical Hugo Blick fashion, the writing is top-notch, the story is gripping, and the performances across the board from Michaela Cole, from John Goodman, are just really, really captivating. I think that if people can put aside some time and put down the phone and watch this,

they will be heavily rewarded by this show. It's just, it's not like other TV. And I'm really glad that we still have voices like this out there doing shows like this, making television that's this thought-provoking. let's get into my conversation with Hugo Blick. I'm now joined by Hugo Blick, who is responsible for two of my favorite television shows this decade, the shadow line, which came out in 2011, and the Honorable Woman, which Andy and I lost our heads about a couple of years ago.

And Hugo has a new show coming on Netflix this week. It's called Black Earth Rising, and I'm so pleased that he was able to join me today. Hugo, thank you so much for joining me. Oh, it's a great pleasure. I remember about four years ago when the Honorable Woman came out, listening to your discussion with Andy and, you know, it educated me. Yeah, I found it to be a deeply moving and also deeply thought-provoking show, Honorable Woman, and I feel the same way about Black Earth Rising. So I was wondering for our listeners, if you could just sort of on the kind of Hugo Blick chronology, the timeline, after you're done, Honorable Woman, where does Black Earth Rising come from?

What are you reading? What are you thinking about that leads you to this story? Well, it came partly from the research that was into the Honorable Woman, because as sort of like deep background, early research, I obviously came across the Nuremberg trials for those listeners that aren't aware of the Honorable Woman. It was about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict today and the inheritance of that for individuals involved in the story. So when I was doing the research into that, I came across the Nuremberg trial. And I sort of twig to myself, oh, it would be interesting to look into how international justice has been institutionalized formally in the years and decades beyond the Nuremberg trials. And so on the completion of the Honorable Woman, I went back to have a look at it. And that's where my trail began. You get done with Honorable Women.

Is there a part of you that's look, do you think about your choices when you're writing these things in terms of, well, I want to do something that feels lighter or heavier? darker, or was this just where you're... No, you know, it's a good question because I thought that the shadow line had a sort of mordant wit to its spine, as it were, as we went through that story with those characters. But you're absolutely right, but with the Honorable Woman and now Black Earth's Rising, there is a geopolitical heft to the whole thing, which makes me wonder whether I should make a comedy next time. Well, you always try to do something like Death of Stalin.

That's pretty late. True. No, no, true. You could always have something to say with something comedic, as Amanda did with that particular movie very well. When you're working on something like Black Earth Rising and there's obviously a density of information, I'm really curious about how you write something like this. And I guess I've been thinking a lot about this because I've been reading a lot about

William Goldman since he passed away. his ability to synthesize such dense amounts of information, especially with all the president's men, and make it such an interesting, compelling piece of drama, which I do think you've really done here with Black Earth Rising because you have identified such an amazing central character. But can you talk to me a little bit about where does the character, what do the characters start to emerge when you're doing all this research?

Yeah, sure. I think the thing that does give me the spine to these kind of what we've just previously described as kind of heavyweight subjects, It's the emotional vacuum at the source of the lead character or the relationships. The head of the geopolitics is how those characters have interacted in the past and are about to. And obviously they have kind of big lives that touch quite big issues. Have at their source the idea of what a secret is by the individual or individual that they need to find out of a secret. That usually has some kind of psychological dineratres express their individuality.

and in Black Earth Rising, it was the fact that she had an identity vacuum by Michaela Cole called Kate Ashby, which we needed to, she needs to self-examine. And it's as if she almost goes on a journey of fucking against characters in which she begins to question why she reacts to these individuals and or events in the way she does. Once she hears it back, so she'll sort of say, don't expect me to behave the way other do. And then someone will come back and say, well, I don't. It's just that you behave strangely there. And she begins to understand herself more, the character that she comes into conflict. Through that journey towards a bigger hole, which is where the geopolitics comes.

Right. Her vacuum becomes a collective, you know, our, basically, yeah, our vacuum. But it has to be that individual need. And it's the individual need to self-identify, to reconcile, both of the past phrase, isn't it? The past is never dead. Yeah. It's not even past. And you know what? I didn't understand what that meant when I first came across.

It's been an intriguing idea. But actually, I think what it means is in order to armor yourself for your future, you have to know your past, therefore you are a complete individual at the point of present, being in the present. One of the fascinating parts, especially about early in the season, is this debate that various characters have about who that you is that you're talking about. Who that you is it gets to decide what is history, what is justice, what gets to be forgotten, what needs to be remembered forever.

And you put that on Front Street. You definitely foreground that argument. How important was that argument not necessarily to get out of the way early in this season, but to at least put on the chessboard because it's essentially the first scene of the entire series. It is. I mean, you sort of got to go straight for, you know, you've got to kill your darling straight up. What is this story going to be about? And in some ways, what isn't it going to be about?

And is it about post-colonialism? Yes, it is. Is it about international justice? Yes, it is. Is it about the failings of both? Yes, it is. Is it also about some of the productive benefits of at least the reach of international justice? Yes, it is.

So we're going to, by the first moments of this story, set up where the nuance, where the gray area of the truth of our destination is going to explore and travel. So you've got to get it up there to begin with. But I think my real purpose was that, I don't know, I, you know, my story was about the pursuit of the aftermath and legacy of trauma, both on an individual and institutional scale. And obviously, the societal scale of the Rwandan genocide was a million, people being terrifyingly murdered due to circumstances with which the West were both complicit

in this construction of the colonial system and removed by the blindness of not seeing that it was going to happen so that it did and it blindsided the West. But then I was interested in the aftermath of that. So what happened to that society after the genocide? And did that society do things that we should have been more scrutinous of, and have they done things that we should be in the West more scrutinous of? Because are we in danger of being blind up to the lead-up to an event? And now, also 25 years later, blind to some of the curtailment that has happened within that society as a consequence of those terrible events. And I think that was something that I was really interested in exploring. Can you tell me a little bit about working with Michaela Cole?

because I think for our viewers, they may know her from chewing gum, and she's obviously an incredible creative mind on her own. And what that creative relationship between the two of you is like in terms of developing this character of Kate. Well, what was so strange was that she fit the character like a glove, which I couldn't really, the character, I couldn't have expected. I saw it was difficult to carve, it had been taking a while to cast.

Because beside this character, so much sort of, it's like a nuclear power station in her eyes, really, of unexpressed frustration on anger and vacuum. And it was really difficult to find someone that was going to kind of portray that in what is still necessarily expression as a character and the way in which she expressed others around her

really fitted the way in which Michaela, subjects and issues surrounding her own life. So I think that it really did marry well, both character and Michaela, to the way in which each kind of interacted with their world. In terms of production, did you shoot in sequence? Because I would imagine that you're shooting this. Much in sequence. I mean, what was interesting is that the story still managed to evolve as we went.

So with the discoveries that are made, particularly as we headed into Africa, I was able to reincorporate into the script in a way that perhaps I hadn't done in the past. I tried to allow everybody that had these significant roles to play to as much as possible take a learning curve as a nation as their characters so that we could adjust as we went through.

You've had the good fortune to work with so many great actors over your career, but especially over the last 10 years. Shadowline has one of my favorite ensembles with actually one of my favorite TV performances in recent memory, which is the Rafe Spall performance. You worked with Maggie Gyllenhaal and so many great actors on Honorable Woman.

But I have to ask you what it was like to work with John Goodman because I've been able to talk to people who've worked with John Goodman, and they all just seem to be in awe. And this is a slightly more measured performance from him than maybe a Big Lobowski kind of role, but it nonetheless is breathtaking. Isn't it because what was so surprised,

John is not a big talker, and that's fine. Every actor has a different sort of method of work, and the best a director can do, really, is just to intuit what their best method of work is for themselves. Some people love to talk, some people love to joke, some people love to concentrate very hard. And John likes to concentrate, and he doesn't like to talk much. So what you kind of get is I got very early the understanding

that you're going, you're going to get, like two really inventive takes quite soon within the theme. So go in for the close-ups quite soon. You'll get two very live performances in any, you know, he's always going to be good, but in something that's really happening in those kind of frames. And they may not be the same.

They'll be quite different. And you kind of go, that's good, okay, on a daily basis, an incremental basis, you kind of go, I see, okay, so that's fine. Everything is alive, and I get it. But we're not talking the characters through much.

And then we get all the way through 12-week shoot for John. And we get to the end. Thank you very much. Off you go. And then I go into the edit at the end of the shoot. And I start tapestering the whole thing. And I realize that he is a kind of a craftsman of real, like a tailor to a suit. He has crafted a role because of those limited moments that he was giving you

that actually soed the character together. with such dexterity that you get to the end of those eight hours, which is what it is. And he has such a beautiful final theme, a heartbreaking final theme, you know, all through that silent, has tapestryed the whole journey of that character, so he never played one note twice.

It was like an incredibly carefully constructed piece of jazz piano. And I was amazingly impressed. What an amazing testament to his stuff. That's great. I was curious, was this a difficult show to sell? I'd sort of know that I'm a kind of, like, the eccentricly odd individual that sort of tries to engage in kind of quite out there geopolitical issues. But I suppose to a certain degree, in these times today, where our societies, both in the UK and in the US and elsewhere, are looking ever increasingly inward and away from international. affairs. I guess part of my, not my pitch, but my conversation to Netflix and the BBC was to say,

you know, if we are as a society doing that, we're looking inwards to our own concerns, we're literally trying to build walls to keep the outside away. It doesn't actually mean that the outside has gone anywhere. And our relationship to the outside remains because historically, because economically, because currently, if you consider Rwanda at the moment, 33% of it, economy comes from external sources. The great deal of that is the US. So we really have to consider that we still have massive effects on international environment. And therefore, we should really, hopefully engage in what the after effects of that, the aftermath and the responsibilities that come with it. So that was kind of the pitch. And I guess they let me get away with it.

You touch on something early in the season that I think has been really fascinating as anyone would find it who's followed the news in whatever capacity, whatever the way, whatever way that means, over the last few years especially, which is that news is happening seemingly at such a pace these days, that something that would seemingly take up weeks, if not months, of discussion and thought years ago is now the third thing that happened on a Wednesday. And that seems to be almost at the heart of what you're talking about earlier in the season where this is something that some people have moved on from. This is something that some people want to move on from. No, you're right. I mean, you are right. And sometimes,

you know, as a creative, you know, I just sometimes feel a bit guilty about even doing, asking people to look, you know, because you kind of go, you know, are you right to be asking people to sort of trouble themselves about things that feel remote? But let me just put it in some kind of context because it is so cyclical in between April and June 1994 with a hundred days of the

Rwandan genocide during the hottest spot of that occurrence and that was the most intensive systematic killing in 100 days in the 20th century if not in modern history during that time was the you and I

really only remember that geographical moment the geopolitical moment, because there was that Ford Bronco with the juice on the motorway, with OJ Simpson on the motorway. That's what we remember during those months while those killings were going on. And I guess that if that's happening in 1994, and then we sort of got very guilty about that, and Clinton got very guilty about that, and, you know, and we did involve ourselves with the reconstruction of Rwanda afterwards.

But now it's 25 years later. And although there's some fantastic things that have happened in that society, were also a reduction of political space. There's also some aspects of political assassination that's being tried at the moment down in South Africa that's really pretty nasty. And if we were blind before, maybe it shouldn't be at the top of the news, but maybe we should also involve ourselves in it. Yeah, and that's the sort of fascinating moment that we've arrived

at in society where long-form television might be able to ask those questions somewhat more coherently than the news media just because of what's consuming the news media now, which I don't necessarily blame anyone who works. No, I think that's good. I mean, I think that is absolutely true. Sometimes, you know, I'm all of us in a creative environment are quite careful kind of to be, you know, self-deprecating and saying, actually, you know, it's just entertainment. And you know what it is?

It's so very, very rare that the needle of progress gets nudged in any forward direction by artistic endeavor. I'm going to be a creative. If you are going through to motivations and individuals and societies and how we interact, well, then any active creativity is political. At some degree, I think that we shouldn't apologize about that and we shouldn't shy from that. I'm not necessarily saying that anybody's going to wake up and go, good golly, what's happening in the DRC. and let's all roll our sleeves up and get in there. But if it doesn't, at least if it doesn't shift the needle,

but it actually makes you pause for a moment. And that human character, that woman that we've just traveled with and those characters who have interacted with her in their failings and their successes, oh, okay, so I know a little bit more about that world. And the great, and hopefully we knew a little bit more about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in the Honorable Woman by its end.

inspiration of question marks, which I hope we just, because, you know, it isn't about a guy talking about these black issues. Well, the thing is that would be a real error of reading of the show, because it is about the West's relationship with Africa. It's not really the two-way street of Africa's relationship with us. It's about the regional limitations of justice and international justice as we offer it to them. Yes. And that divide, as it were, and that's why I've written it. Well, I highly encourage people to check out Black Earth Rising. And while I admire what you're saying about,

aren't necessarily being able to move the needle in one way or the other. But I do think what you're right, what it does is starts a ripple effect of engagement and people thinking about these things after the fact, and that's the most important thing. Hugo, thank you so much for calling in. Oh, pleasure. And thank you for making such incredible shows.

Well, thank you. I look forward to maybe meeting in person one day. Absolutely.