The Watch - ‘Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania’ and the Limits of the Multiverse Plotline. Plus, ‘Tár’ and ‘Poker Face.’

Episode Date: February 16, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about Harrison Ford entering the MCU as Thaddeus Ross in the next Captain America movie (1:00) and ‘Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania’ getting poor reviews (13:44). Then they talk about one of the Oscar frontrunners ‘Tár’ (30:59) and the latest few episodes of ‘Poker Face’ (40:07). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Rigger.com. And joining me on the other line, live from Phase 5, it's Andy Greenwald. You're even shouting my name. Chris, like, everybody, like, You are a modern marvel of science. You cannot be stopped. Like, do you remember, first of all, hello, everyone.

Second, do you remember, like, really almost three full years ago when there was the specter of a pandemic, a viral plague sweeping the nation? And we were in our homes and we were making sort of nervous jokes. And I think we were all just, you know, the future was never less known. Wiping down our deliveries, yeah. If someone had just handed us, a telegram. Like if Jonas from Dark had appeared wearing his trademark orange parka and his trademark German sunny disposition and handed you a telegram that said, in three years, you will have this

disease, space bar, space bar, space bar, and you will willingly do a three-hour podcast about golf. Would you take this deal? You would, right? Honestly, if it was going on No Laying Up, I would. I did a, I went on No Laying Up. It's a golf podcast. Shout out to DJ and Tron and Sully and all the guys. And we talked about full swing, the Netflix docu-series about the PGA, which is sort of made in the model of Drive to Survive. Andy, I figured you would probably be spending most of this weekend watching that, but I wanted to get a head start.

And, yeah, also, while I'm doing plugs, can I also plug the ripple effect, which is the ringer's latest soccer podcast? It's being hosted by James Lawrence Alcott, an English football pundit that we work with. and he's amazing. And I went on the first episode of that show this week. So yeah. You also did the Patient Zero show. Sorry, Patient Zero.

That's medical terms. Apologies. But you were in London and you did a show with him before he had a show. We did. We did a live show. Yeah. We did a live show. It's unbelievable.

Like, Chris, when I had the novel coronavirus, I felt more or less emotionally well enough to podcast. But I also sounded like I've been smoking French cigarettes since childhood. You know, you seem fine. I just, I'm dazzled by you. You know, it's funny you should be talking about personal health because one of the first topics I wanted to discuss with you today was... Wait, but I know, it's a great segue. I know, you know, I don't know if the Advil's peaking right now. I just want to say that in the future, if I ever get the sniffles or any kind of cold, I would like you to do what Ellie does to Sam in episode 105 of The Last of Us, which is, you know, take out your penknife. This is not a spoiler. I mean, a little bit, but cut your, cut your hand to reveal your magic blood and then you could smear it on me. Like, I just feel like

your antibodies. I should say, can I just jump out and say, like, you know, you're being very sweet to me about my, my COVID potting. But I did get Henry and Sam's relationship wrong. And then triple, like, repeated it throughout the podcast. So I think I was saying that Henry and Sam were father's son when in fact they're brothers. Listen, once again, look at you just falling on your COVID sword. I was, I had a zero viral load and I was like, yep, what Chris said, because even in his diminished state, Chris knows things more than I do about what's happening on. I didn't know that. I mean, I guess I must have just not picked up on that. But the other thing is, is that speaks to our only childness. Because we don't think about brothers in that way.

You know, it's like, the only reason that you would sacrifice yourself is if it was a parent-child relationship for, you know, we can't even imagine what it would be like to have a sibling. A million percent. You might extend it to like, a parent ward relationship, which is why the Batman movies have always feel deeply. That's something that you understand. Right? That's right.

Like Batman would do that for Robin. I wanted to ask you something, though. What do you think you're going to be doing when you're 80? I mean, Jesus. I hope something productive. Why? How productive? How productive do you want to be at 80?

Do you want to be like constantly working and applying your trade still? Or do you feel like that? Yeah. Isn't it cute that we all sort of pretend that retirement is still a thing? It's true. It's very sweet that this still like fuels some of our narrative about what life is like. Will I have the same robust podcast schedule that you have had while suffering from the effects of a global viral plague? Probably not.

Right. But also what is productive? Does that mean working? or does that mean like, you know, out in the shed, woodworking on a dollhouse for my great grandchild? No, I mean still doing the job that you have probably either been known for for most of your life or as you are at the pinnacle of your profession. The reason why I'm asking, most people probably think I'm referring to President Joe Biden,

who's 80 years old. 80 years young, yeah. 80 years young. And I am referring to the president, but to a different president. Oh, look at this. And that's President Thaddeus Young of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yes. Who is going to be played by Harrison Ford, also 80 years old.

Also, as busy as he has ever been, and I'm getting a little worried. I got to be honest. If I was Harrison Ford, God damn it, I would be so satisfied with myself. You've done great. You've escaped death, literally, from your several flying accidents that you've had, right? Yeah. There's only so many golf courses in Santa Monica and Atlanta plane. And then, like, you're...

basically treated as if you're in the category of like your Nicholson's, your Redford's, you're whatever, you're like just old Hollywood lion. The guy connects, you know, eras of cinema history to one another have been part of a couple of the biggest movies ever made. And you've arrived at this sort of golden period of twilight of your frankly life. So you'd think, yeah, right. And we find Harrison Ford in 1923, the Taylor Sheridan show. shrinking an Apple TV show with Jason Siegel. He is going to be in this summer's Indiana Jones in the Dial of Destiny,

where he's being de-aged and jumping out of planes and running around like a kid. And now he is taking over William Hertz's role as Thaddeus Young in the MCU. And I was just like, were you bored? Was Wednesday free? Like, what did you... You had all these miles

and you wanted to fly to Atlanta to get like a Sapphire club? like, what is going on? Do you think Callista grounded him? Like, his only happiness was in the skies. And then she was like, you can never, ever do that again. Like, lose the number of your Cessna dealer. And so he's like, I guess I got to go back to work.

Do you think that Harrison Ford is kind of like John Madden, where now he has to take the bus to work? So, like, wherever he's there like, yeah, Harrison, uh, Kang Dynasty shoots in Atlanta. And he's like, great, I'll get on the bus. I'll be there in two weeks. I'm going to stop you there. He didn't say great.

Like, the thing is, he kind of took a long time off, like relatively recently to the degree that we... Who is like notorious for being like a real like, I have to like see the script and really like thoroughly interrogate it. He's also never seemed like someone who enjoyed any of this, right? Like his whole thing was like, I was a carpenter and that was fine. And then somebody asked me to do this and that was fine. 500 million dollars in personal wealth later. Like I guess I'm probably good now. Right. Like that's probably fine. And then something has lit a fire. under him to such a bizarre degree. And I think we kind of, we considered the possibilities recently,

like maybe just acting is easier now because you just stand in front of something and then the bright boys in Taiwan draw everything around you. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe that's, that's part of it. But there was a time when getting him back for the new Star Wars series seemed like the real coup. Like there's no way he's going to do this again. And when he came back and he was charming and, you know, he smiled a little bit and we're like, great. Okay, so he did it. And they must have appealed, like Carrie Fisher must have called him. They must have appealed to his, you know,

like, let's put a cap on this. But something happened to him on that set. And maybe only JJ Abrams can answer it because he's not stopping. And it does seem bizarre because, again,

if this was truly doing what he loved, you'd think that maybe then when the Hollywood reporter is like, Mr. Ford, like, how do you feel about doing these movies? He wouldn't be like, fuck off.

But essentially he is. And sometimes he's not even like that just because it's the media. He'll just be like, I mean, he is a little bit of, in the cut check zone, I think. I think he did Blade Runner because he thought it was a good movie.

Like when I saw him talking about Blade Runner, he seemed deeply engaged in the work. And I think he probably sincerely does think that Taylor Sheridan stuff is good. Like as a Montana landowner himself. Yeah, exactly. But I think that's right. I was reading this interview with Kevin Feige and EW, which is where I found this information. And there's a really great passage about Harrison Ford. Did you want to say something? No, I didn't want to cut you off. but I was thinking like, my mind was still spinning as to why this is, we're never going to get an answer to this. But I was thinking, we didn't mention this coming off of the Super Bowl, but when I see the Breaking Bad commercial for popcorners, I'm like, these guys have gambling debts. Like, you know, I don't know whether it's a fan duel situation. Shoutouts to the sponsors, but like there's something, something is off here.

You know what I mean? Like Aaron Paul and Brian Cranston have plenty of opportunities to spend time together. I follow Aaron Paul on Sosch and they had a private tequila jet taking them to the Super Bowl so they're fine. Yeah, because they still have their tequila line, right? Yes. Like the fact that they're doing this

with these characters, not even for some high class product, but no offense to popcorners. I'm still going for that Doritos check. Everyone heard me last week or earlier in the week. But like, it's really weird and maybe it's damaging the legacy. Like when everyone was like,

oh my God, Brian Cranston's going to show up for El Camino. wow, he loves Vince Gilligan. He's really going to help put, you know, really, really put a bow on on this. And then he just keeps showing up. Yeah. Is he going to start showing up at Halloween dressed as Walter White? Like, it's cool, man. It's fine. It kind of also feels weird in the, in light of Better Call Saul, where you're like that you guys completely tied a knot on this thing. Yes. It's weird. So anyway. It's so it perfectly ended. But this isn't Harrison Ford's thing. I mean, I don't have the same feeling about it. We may never know. Please read the quote.

I'm sorry to derail you. This is important work. Uh, so Kevin. Kevin Feige was talking to EW, his quantum mania is coming out this weekend, obviously. We'll talk about that in just a second. And Harrison Ford will be joining the MCU appearing in Captain America, New World Order with Anthony Mackey. Feige says, we start filming relatively soon. I'm sure anyone you've ever talked with about Harrison Ford says this, but it's unbelievable that we get to meet and talk with him and that he's embracing this role. He is tireless with the amount of work he does.

Now, I don't know whether that just means like the amount of movies he's currently in or the amount he has invested into, admittedly, one of the great roles in American dramatic history, which is Thaddeus Ross. Yeah, I mean, there's Stanley Quaulski. The 21st century, Lear. Yes.

This is certainly a big part for Thaddeus Ross. I don't know why we've changed to talking about him as if he's a real person. He's the president of the United States in the film. And with Harrison, you think about Air Force One and you think about some of his contributions with the president in clear and present danger. I can imagine if that was just like, we're kind of president were you, Harrison Ford. There's a dynamic between President Ross and Sam Wilson.

They have a history together, but in this film, we'll be seeing the dynamic between Captain America and the president of the United States in a way that is just incredible. And apparently this has been a dream of Feige's ever since he saw John Favro cast Harrison Ford in Cowboys in aliens. Kevin Feige saw that movie? Oh, he produced that movie. I believe he was involved in that. So I just was like, okay. But I thought we could use this as a way to turn into

phase five conversation and just I know you think that we're going to roast Kevin for this, but like, look, he understands what movie goers want in 2023. They want dynamic. They want to see a dynamic that was one way become a slightly different dynamic. Yeah. That's just what motivates

people. It puts butts in seats. there's a lot of competition for eyeballs that if you can't bring me a dynamic between a new Captain America and an old president played by a new actor who's also old. I don't know if I'm interested. I think all of us who saw the introduction of Sam in Captain America, I want to say Winter Soldier. Falcon and the Winter Soldier, yeah. No, that was the TV show, but I think Falcon first appeared, right, in the parallax view of the MCU. Sure. To quote the Russo Brothers, the movie Winter Soldier. Like, I was like, you know, I like I like this character, but I just feel like there's a

dynamic between him and soon to be president, Thunderbolt Ross, that just needs to be explored. Quantumania comes out today, I guess. 50% rotten tomatoes. And based on like, because, you know, as an, as the MCU freak that I am, I don't want anything spoiled. But I was like kind of scanning some responses. And it seems like there is a shared fatigue of the multiverse stuff that we were talking about a couple of days ago with the Flash trailer where I was like, I guess so we're just going to make literally the same. There's only one superhero movie now and it's this, it's this I have to go back in time and correct everything.

But in the act of going back in time have undone everything else and it unleashed a huge evil. Spider-Man obviously did that. The Flash is doing that. And it seems like that's obviously the point of Ant Man here, Ant Man and the Wasp Quantum Man. And that the multiverse is going to be essentially the storytelling mechanism for the whole phase. But I think it's actually having some diminishing returns. I think people are actually kind of getting wise to like it. You know, when you see John the Majors and he's like, I think Robert Downey Jr. should come back for like one of these movies.

It's like, don't do that. That's like the only person, only one of these characters who got like the proper right sendoff, right? Why would you bring them back just because it's a multiversal experiment? I think it's time we do a wellness check on Kev. Like, this isn't going great. It's not going great, you know. And I think that we have a body of work behind us, certainly not as rich, deep, and varied as the CV of General Thaddeus Thunderbolt Ross.

But, you know, we've been doing this for a minute. Whose rise from the military to the executive office is actually less conventional than you imagine. You know, you got Dwight Eisenhower, but. million percent. Who else? Where Wesley Clark and Norman Schwartzcott failed, Thaddeus Ross kind of succeeded. I agree. And so that alone is worthy of discussion and debate, a spirited debate that I look forward to having with you. And it's a dynamic, I think, that we appreciate. Yeah. But we've liked Marvel movies. We like this stuff, and we've historically liked it. It hasn't been good for a minute. And it's starting to smell. Like, I think that it's starting to turn. Now, this is not an act of bravery.

to stand on the edge of a 50% cliff on rotten tomatoes and be like, guys, like this has been coming for a minute. But I do think it's worth combining. Just the idea of you stepping up in the battlements as like Paris burns. Something is amiss. Yeah. Look, he's the cheerleader of this. And, you know, one of his heroes was the great Stan Lee.

And I do think that in his, I was going to say in his cups, I don't know if Kevin is a wine drinker. just mean like even in his quieter moments, I think that he would model his role for the expansion of Marvel into movies and television, not unlike what Stan Lee did, being sort of the creative driver behind it. And then even though he doesn't give a ton of press, he certainly doesn't write a soapbox column in every issue the way Stan did. But he's kind of the public face and the cheerleader of this. So every time a big movie comes out, he'll do the rounds, he'll do the interview with EW like he did. And he will, like any president, Biden or Ross, will say like the state

of the nation is strong. I don't think it's true right now. And I think it's starting to be a little worrisome. And I would pair this bit of observation with the hard news that among the things that has emerged from Bob Eager's return to the presidency, again, a couple presidents, just chatting, I think he's the CEO, whatever, of Disney, is he looked at the past few years of like everything needs to be built for streaming under the Chepec regime. And he was like, who did this? And it was like, wait, no, I did this. Because that was still his idea.

It's really true. Like all this stuff this week, and I was even listening to the Ringer podcast, The Town about this, which is like, what is Disney going to do with Hulu and the Fox assets now that it doesn't make grown up programming? And it is literally Bob Eiger doing the, I think you should leave hot dog truck meme. Right. How could we find out who bought these things so unsuited to our company? But it's inarguable that this is a good creative move

to be like maybe let's not put out 14 TV shows a year that are all important but all pretty not great. So I do think scarcity will be good for them in a way. Like let's just calm down and slow down and make things that make sense and deliver a higher quality return for people. But he's still building this phase five on the weird, weird, weird, weird, weird,

ashes of phase four, right? And I, I don't know, look, it's easy to say this now as quantum mania is coming out. In quantum mania, we'll see it and we'll talk about it, it does seem to be, Ant Man was a fun thing on the side. And now Ant Man is the essential text. It's the dark hole, if you will, for whatever is about to come, which is a very strange rebrand of something that I think did have a wider net of fandom that was more about Michael Pena than it was about Kang. Yeah, and it's not entirely uncommon or unheard of in the Marvel canon for a character to make a pivot later into the sort of run of its movies. Like, Thor is a good example. But Thor, I think, if anything, went from being way too heavy and mythological to super fun, almost to the far extreme the other way where it's just nothing but bits now.

whereas Antman starts as like a caper guy and now has sort of got the weight of multiple universes on his shoulders. I think it's also easy to be like, oh, this thing is coming down and crashing, but the Guardians of the Galaxy 3 trailer, we talked about on Monday, and it looks awesome. Now that comes from a different era of Marvel. Sure.

This movie was supposed to come out in 2020 or something before James Gunn was fired and did suicide squad and came back. So you're only as strong or as weak as your next big thing. And so something big is coming. but I do think it's a little bit suspect and I don't know, right? Like this is uncharted territory. We talked about this when the Avengers phase ended,

which is like there's no real reason why they can just keep this going forever. No franchises had unending success. Yeah. The multiverse stuff sets them up for something that other projects didn't have the luxury of, which is just the hard reboot, Secret Wars and we're done and we'll start over.

I don't know where audiences are with this. We are not, you know, we're not Thomas Friedman. and the cabs in Bangalore asking people the tough questions. We don't know how people feel about this, but I do think there's some fatigue and be like, where are the stars doing the fun, heroic things? Well, I was thinking about this the other day because there was a little self-reflection about sometimes how like I'll repeat lots of the same phrases or, you know, as a podcast, sometimes we go back to like certain same tropes. And one of them used to be like, who is this for?

And I think that's like an easy way to be sort of skeptical about that. something and make it seem like, oh, you know, like, who is this for? But it's like, you know, usually they know. I wonder if they do anymore, though. And the only reason I ask is because is Marvel making stuff for the people who fell in love with these movies as teens or children even? Because that was 20 years ago, right? And, right, like it was about 2008. Iron Man? Yeah, 2007, 2008. Yeah. So we're coming up on almost 20 years of this. But, right? But, right? But are you raising people or are you trying to find the next generation of kids over and over again? And something like the Marvels would suggest you're trying to find like new ways of engaging younger people in different ways.

But with like, you know, multiversal storytelling and quasi-s, you know, it's essentially more sci-fi than it is like grounded superhero stuff. I just think that for as much as we have, we and certainly the industry writ large, praised that the organization, that the organizational big picture, almost Kang-like, if you will, design acumen of Kevin Feige, a lot of the success came from pretty traditional Hollywood things. Like you cast people who are movie stars right at the right moment when people are ready to fall in love with them, and you empower some filmmakers or writers who are also cusping and are like ready to do something big and bring you along with it and have a sort of ability to give you a sense of why they're telling you this story. The Russo, James Gunn, Ryan Cougler, yeah.

Right at the right moment. And then similarly, like the cast of the Avengers for the most part. What you get into, though, what these movies wrought in Hollywood, and we've said this in various forms over many, many years, is, was it perceived as a way to outthink the unpredictability of a creative-based business because you could just slate untitled Marvel movie into June 2025 and tell your shareholders that and everything would be fine. But to do that means that you can no longer swing and miss. You really can't, I mean, they've been able to roll past Eternals, you know, which would you like to hear my thoughts in the Brian Tyree Henry scene? Very moving.

But they could roll past that. But, you know, Soto Voce, kind of a catastrophe. Sure. They've been able to roll past what I believe, and I don't think this is like a hot take. Like, I kind of think Brie Larson is miscast as Captain Marvel and that movie wasn't very good. But now they're like, well, get ready. Your favorite Captain Marvel will be co-starring with the star of Ms. Marvel, who is very charming and good. And Tiona Paris, who is also a great TV actress in a movie that Kevin Feigeon is interviewed. you as being like, this is as momentous as when the Avengers got together in 2012. And I'm like, respectfully, I don't know if that's the case. I know that you wanted to be the case.

It might well be the case if the movie's excellent, and I would love for it to be excellent. But I don't think you can build a creative slate in the same way you can build a financial shareholder slate on the assumption that you've just gotten it right and you're going to deliver these moments. You can't anticipate what the audience is going to be excited about with that level of certainty. Gage your anticipation for Ant Man. Are you going to go see it this weekend? Oh, I'm going as soon as we stop recording.

No, I do want to see it because I'm curious for all these reasons we're saying, also because the first two Ant Movie, Ant Man movies were charming. And ultimately, Paul Rudd talking to Jonathan Majors, I would see that movie. We've talked about this. This is maybe our way in. It's like if you told me the cast list and I'd still want to see it, even if it didn't involve purple creatures on green screens, then I'll go. hasn't the ceiling just fallen a little bit?

Like the last one of these movies that was like, wow, this is even better than I imagined was Spider-Man. My anticipation for this movie is, well, I hope it's enjoyable enough to deal with the spinach of multiversal world building. Yeah, I think that you have to accept. For me, as a middle-aged man with novel coronavirus, it's funny to like just kind of be like,

I will not be seeing this this weekend for a variety of reasons. The bigger reveal would be if you were like, I am seeing it. Free my face. In the free state of Florida. Yeah. No, but I realized recently that like, you know, I obviously didn't see Wakanda in theaters. I wound up seeing it on Disney Plus. I did not finish Hawkeye.

I did not watch Miss Marvel beyond the first few episodes, which I thought were fun. But I was just like, I just had other stuff. going on that it didn't grab me that much. I didn't really like Shee Hulk and sort of realizing like, oh, actually, you know, this may have, this sea change may have happened like months ago and I didn't even notice. And it could be a qualitative thing and it could be just a, I've seen now, like, whatever it's been, however, 18 movies, 19 movies, five or six shows. And you could be approaching and I'm good. I really think that, and I say this respectfully to all the creatives involved who are working their asses off to do the best version of what they can under, I'm sure, you know,

challenging circumstances. I think the goals of Marvel on Disney Plus are very different from the creative goals of building a film slate or connecting with audiences on the scale that Avengers Endgame did. Even if you keep the same creative flame burning at HQ, fundamentally, Cheapac was like, flood the block. You know what I mean? Like, let's just, let's just deliver on this content at this almost unimaginable fire hose pace, whether those shows were good enough or not, whether they landed with us, you know, specifically, like the kind of medium fan, I don't think was relevant. And maybe that there's some, you know, smart economic reason or financial planning reason why that's the case. But from this perspective, it just feels like a really weird missed creative opportunity,

all of these shows. Can I ask you a question that I did not anticipate asking you, so I don't anticipate you necessarily have like an answer at the ready. What happens if this stuff goes away? Like thinking a lot about the interconnectedness of markets in the last couple of months, obviously, but what happens if there is a failed state at the center of Hollywood? And like you've got an issue with the long-term viability. I'm not, I'm not here to like be like the sky's falling on superhero movies. Obviously, I think that these movies are still, you're still able to make them very profitably.

I don't know how much longer you can continue to pretend like they're as popular as you'd like them to be just based on box office if they have no staying power, really with people. I think it's a very risky, it's a great question. I think it's a very terrifying proposition because there cannot be.

There cannot be a vacuum at the center of this because the superhero movies, they are the film business. Yeah, that's what I'm. asking. Yeah. It's it. I mean, you can't, you know, you can be Steven Spielberg and hug Tom Cruise and be like, Top Gun Maverick saved theatrical. You saved our ass. Like, yeah, he did. They did. But that's a one of one, you know, unless they make another Top Gun sequel, which, who knows? But my point being, you can't count on something miraculous like that coming out every year that is both Oscar

nominated and financially just outrageous or another avatar. I mean, I guess there are seven more avatars. But the superhero movie and that thing that I was sort of dismissing as the June 20, 25 date, like, that's what's keeping all of the stuff that's float. Yeah, right. That's the, that's, that's the gravity machine that's keeping everything going. And if you take that away, the ripple effect is just unconscious. Like the studios, the theater, the theaters go out of business. Yeah, well, I mean, there's not that many, you know, when you go through, especially when we do big picture drafts, like, we'll go through the box office for that year. And, you know, I, the idea that movies were like so much more of a sacred place 25 years ago or 30 years ago

is bullshit because like if you there's plenty of like really lowest comment on the denominator stuff rising to the top there. But it's diverse. Like at least creatively diverse, not always actually diverse, but it's diverse in terms of what it was offering. And if you get down to the point where everything has to be a superhero movie, like I don't even think there's that there's no Star Wars films right like right now. there's no huge YA adaptation that's currently running

like a Hunger Games or a Twilight, right? I mean, in my house, we're waiting for Keeper of the Law Cities, but apparently Ben Affleck has the rights to that.

So that's a whole other story. Which one is that? I'll explain. I'll show you that, I'll show you these phone book bricks that are in my house of books. And then, yeah,

I'm trying to think of like what else in the last 15 years would sort of be the other, you know, like, yeah, Lord of the Rings. Like those kinds of things, like a lot of that stuff

is either moved to TV or it's become, you know, they're waiting to reboot Hunger Games, I think, in some capacity. But besides the fact that, like, DC and Marvel are essentially the two games in town, right? And then there's everything else that's on the far periphery. Yes. And, you know, not to be a Grantland slash ringer cliche, but like in terms of a, like a sports analogy, like, you just, you can't just build a team on supermax players. You just can't do it, you know, like at a certain point. the Supermax players or John Wall or Russell Westbrook where we literally cannot have you on our team or you become a $48 million accept. Like it's just a sinkhole, right? Like you need to build,

you need to get the, I don't know how to do this. I mean, we're not, I don't mean, I know how to continue doing the podcast. I don't even know how to even explain this idea or like certainly how to do the numbers. But like the- It's a dead cap hit. The return on investment, there used to be movies that, you know, they made for $5 million and they made $30 million. Now, all movies cost three to four hundred million dollars and need to make a billion dollars. And that's just an incredibly precarious place to be. And that's also why, in this, to bring it full circle, like in this EW interview, Fagie's like, we have the story for the next Tom Holland Spider-Man.

Because guess what? That one works. Will it work a fourth time? I don't know. But you're goddamn right. They're going to try and find out. Honestly, probably. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

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What about the five-star Waldorf Astoria in the Maldives? Are you going to do this for all 9,000 properties? When you want points that can take you anywhere, any time, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Book your spring break now. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about poker face today. But I wanted to also ask you a question because I saw on your IG, and we're getting into the almost time for Oscars in a couple weeks,

I saw on your Instagram that you went to another screening of TAR. Because you'd seen it, I know you loved it, but you got to go to a guild screening and Cape Blanchet and Todd Field were there doing a presentation of it. In conversation with Gustavo Dutamel, the now exiting composer of the LA. The New York Philharmonic guy, yeah. Yeah.

Who's actually in the movie briefly, like a photo of him. Yeah, we haven't actually talked about TAR. I saw it again. And this is one of those things where like, oh, the opportunity to see it at the screening with that conversation was too good. But I also, as a, I believe you referred to yourself as a middle-aged man.

Let me repeat that. And say that there's a certain kind of existential horror that occurs only to the middle-aged person when arriving at an event, getting a seat, being like, oh, thank God, made it through traffic, got a seat at the screening at 6.30 p.m. in this beautiful room and then realizing that the movie that you're going to see for a second time is two hours and 40 minutes. There are no concessions and there'll be a conversation afterwards and all you have is some like lifesavers. Yeah.

And I was like, I'm not quote unquote diabetic diabetic, but I was like, this could go south in a hurry. Sure. Sure. You know? But this movie, Chris, is so transcendent. It's so good. It's so everything that I want from art that I was floating. I was wrapped.

I didn't have appetite anymore. I didn't have hunger. I was fed by this movie. I loved it even more the second time. And I'm just, I'm totally in awe of it. I think that it is a monumental achievement that is one of the best films of this decade, if not the century. I think it is a masterwork of ideas and contradiction and performance and direction and style.

I'm happy to talk about any of it or all of it. But the thing that I'm really, really struck by, the reason why I think it's just really important, and I know that's kind of a ridiculous word, is that this is a movie that revels, not just in contradiction, but in ambiguity. And it really makes me happy. And it made me think, look, shout out to Sean Fantasy

and Amanda Dobbins. Like, cinema is high art, I admit it. The higher art. But do we have, I don't know if we have room for ambiguity and stuff in our art at the moment. And we certainly don't celebrate it. And it's certainly not in TV. Yeah.

Certainly not in TV. Because there's something about this movie. And Chuck and I talked a little bit around it last week when Chuck was like, you know, certainly you feel you agree with the theory that the end of this movie is a dream. Now, I'm not going to spoil the movie. And I rejected it because I was like, but it's all made up. So what does it matter? There is no answer.

And he's like, well, the X, Y and Z thing wouldn't happen. I'm like, none of this would happen. Like, this is a made up movie story. But I also, I feel like in retrospect, and I'll say this is Chuck's face, not just when he's not on the podcast. Like, I kind of think it's a failing of our duty as audience members to just be like, well, it's either this or it isn't. There is no definitive answer. And I loved listening to Todd Field do interviews where someone is like, oh, the opening moment of the movie, someone is live streaming Kate Blanchett's character. Yeah, who's doing it?

Who's doing it? Isn't it blank? And Todd Field's like, huh, yeah, maybe. Maybe it is. Fuck yeah, Todd. Maybe it is. That's right. Well, I mean, Todd Field must know the answer to that question.

He just doesn't want to make it where it's like... She knows what the answer to him. Yeah. But he has made a movie about a compelling, empathetic, genius monster. And all of it is true at the same time. And I was like, do we even have room for that in anything that we care about on television anymore? And I was like, the ending of the Sopranos? And we all know how well that was received.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that a lot of a lot of so much of the prestige television that we watch and that we love and talk about a lot is make sure that like the themes of the show are at the surface. You know, now sometimes that could be through storytelling devices like say and we own this city. There are lots of long one-on-one conversations between characters where they are explicitly discussing not. not only the events of the show, but what those events mean. Think about the Treat Williams scene and We Own the City,

where he's just like, here is the subtext of We Own the City. Let me explain the history of Baltimore police. Yeah, and the idea of war on drugs and what militarizing a police force does. And so that's what was probably what was my second favorite show last year. And And Orr is no different.

You know, Andor has long, explicit diatribes about living under fascism and what we have to do to survive and whether survival is sufficient and all these things. And Andor's main mechanism is we will show you who built the Death Star

and what it cost them. You know, like it's going so far in the other direction. It is only specifics, but it is exalting the specifics into poetry. So I think that the gift of something like TAR isn't so much whether or not the last 20 minutes or a dream or it's a dream after she gets,

after she falls, you know, she's having like a reverie of some kind. It's that what Tar is about is a mystery. And there are so few things in our lives that we are, we allow that like kind of airspace to just be like, hey, what's Tar about? Well, it's about a composer who goes through a great public kind of, a conductor who goes through like great public kind of fall from grace.

That's technically what it's about. what are the ideas in TAR and what are the ideas that TAR plays with? And then I think crucially, and in some ways, Kate Blanchett's sort of position in interviews has not helped this because she's,

I think, probably shares some of Lydia Tarr's ideas about, like, you know, the value of certain kinds of art and stuff like that. I couldn't care less one way or the other like what she says, but like the idea of like whether or not TAR

is about like cancel culture or... I think it's just where we, we end up in this place where I think some of the questions that the movie ask, but again, it's a movie. So it doesn't ask anything other than our attention. So many movies and TV shows do ask. Do you know what I mean? Yes.

And what this movie does is it just spends some time inside of some things. And then you have feelings about those things and you react to them, including do we have space for the majesty of art anymore? Or are we too consumed with the messiness of human beings? And where does the human being end and the art begin? and what is the value of one versus the other? And maybe that value is different when you are in the audience of a concert hall. And maybe it's different when you're on the end of an unwanted touch or advance from someone.

All of these things are valid questions. And questions are by nature ambiguous, you know. And I just, I don't know. I mean, you hear it in my voice. Like the second viewing my response to it was really powerful and it really moved me. And I think one of the reasons why is because it, in my TV brain or my consuming brain as it has been formed by the last 15 years of my life. The job I'll still be doing when I'm 80 to bring it back to the beginning of this podcast.

I didn't realize this was happening because I loved it the first time. And I was like, oh, this movie is sneaky, funny. Like, it's absurd at times and it's intense and it's all of these things. So I loved it. But I realized on the second viewing that my mind was chasing down all of the loose ends and almost preparing myself for what the movie might be. So when she goes back to Berlin, I was like, is this a thriller? Is someone out to get her?

Is this going to take a turn in a way that will be more plot driven? Should I be paying attention to that? And even subconsciously, chasing down those loose ends meant that I wasn't present with what it was, which was, here's two and a half hours of Lydia Tar, buckle the fuck up. Yeah. And I'm very interested by the failings of that first viewing in retrospect,

that I, and not just for what it cost me in terms of understanding what the movie was interested in, but also the pleasure it cost me. These little moments, like there's a scene later in the movie when she's back in her childhood home and she's weeping, watching something, but she's also wearing like a dinky archery medal that she clearly won when she was a child. And like, that was a decision. That was a conversation they had to put this medal around two-time Oscar award winner Kate Blanchett's neck. The scene when she threatens her daughter's bully at school in full fluent German by saying, hello, Johanna, I am Petra's father. Guys, the movie matters. It's fucking great. Have you gotten a chance to see some of the other Oscar moms for best picture? I'm going to watch them all between now and Monday's show. I am going to watch I am going to watch more because I want to have this conversation more broadly with you and I'm interested.

Well, I know that you want to be like Tar is so clearly better than everything, but I want to say that's so badly. Oh, I want to say it so badly. But I have not earned that right to say that. Yeah, you got to see Elvis first. Want to talk poker face? Yeah, let's talk. I want to know where you're at with this. I think the show is amazing. So I still, I will, as Sean said, I think on Twitter, like, I'll watch as many of these as they want to make. This is exactly the kind of thing that I feel like.

I was sort of craving, which is not a passive watch, not a do my laundry watch, not a get up and make a snack watch. But is a, you can leave it in the sort of window. of time that you spend watching it. And partially because, like, I don't think you have to spend a tremendous amount of time charting Charlie's personal mythology and biography because they do a good job of weaving that in. But especially in the last few episodes, so I would say the Chloe Seventy episode, the Judith Light, S. Epitham-Mercoson episode, and the Tim Meadows and Ellen Barkin episode.

Charlie is kind of a background character now. Like, the way that these structurally work. is that they basically do a full, almost like act and change, like a 20 minutes of setup of this murder that she's going to eventually come in and we all know what happened, but she's going to figure out and figure out some of the motives and figure out some of the why and beyond the how. And it just really works for me the way it's being made.

I also think, to your point about tar and knowing all the details of the world, this show is succeeding in a way that Glass Onion didn't for me in that it is taking place in an imaginary reality. There are some things about it that correspond to ours, but it is like the things that we loved about the early episodes of Charlie Drinking Cores and sitting in her backyard and her muscle car and the West as sort of imagined by this show and now as it's moving kind of around the country a little bit.

I really love like the kind of the world that's sort of created of these people kind of a lot of whom are on the sort of on the outskirts of society or not not societally like alienated but like maybe on the downslope of like where they wanted to be in their lives. And it's a great place to put crime, you know, is when people are starting to get desperate or starting to think differently about their lives. What have you been thinking about the show? Well, I also want to say I don't think this is breaking news or violating any. trust that I did find out. We talked about the cores and stuff in the first episode. There was no product placement. There was no paid endorsements of anything. Ryan apparently just insisted on using real stuff. That's good. And I would imagine that, you know, I can't speak for the NBCU Shineheart company, but I bet they were like, you know, we could have gotten paid for that. I know. It wouldn't have been the worst thing. So I should say, we're recording this on Thursday. I think a new episode dropped today, and I've not seen the new episode yet. Yeah. The last one I saw was six.

But Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney already have their review of it up. I am, I'm a little mixed. I'm a little more mixed than I thought. Interesting. I love the first three. The things that I loved about the show, I still love. And let me add one more thing to it, which is if this show's only purpose was to be a kind of carnival repertory theater for some of the great or eccentric or underutilized talents of, the American cultural landscape, then let's fucking go. Let's do it. Let's make it that and let's always have it because Ellen Barkin, right? Like Judith Light, as about the Marcus and having more fun than she had in 35 years of like frowning at Benjamin Brat. You know, like this is,

right. That alone is worth it. And the fact that it has the spirit of fun and you can feel the people who got to work on the show finally having the opportunity to do the like Scandy crime inside jokes or just, you know, like there's a space for that sort of silliness here, and it fits and it works, and there should be more of that in our TV and in our lives. I think the only thing I was bumping on is the show's, I mean, Ryan Johnson's involved in it. He created it. He's the executive producer. I'm sure he's reading every script, but he's not running the show. He's not writing every episode. And it's absolutely, at least through the episodes that we've seen, it's devotion to the one-s-

singular format is starting to get me, the format of we will show you someone getting murdered and how it happened, and then Charlie will wander into rooms being like, you didn't kill that person, did you? You did? Oh, boy. I just want a different, it's kind of like I just want a different flavor, you know, and maybe though we'll start to move away from it. I know murder she wrote didn't vary things, but that specific kind of, you know, before I go to any kind of a figure or arm myself, I think I'll just sit down with these murderers and really lay it out for them. Did you watch the episodes that you watched in a bunch, or did you watch them kind of spread out?

I watched them in two bunches. Okay. I wonder if that has something to do with it. I think it's possible. Because the murder she wrote Colombo experience, I mean, I suppose you could binge them now because they're on Peacock, but they were a mystery of the week. And I think the of the week part was crucial, whereas with Pokerface, I think a lot of of people obviously watched a bunch of episodes when they first were released in the beginning. And now

it's like a week-to-week thing. But if you're catching up, it might be something where you're like, seeing this replayed twice three times in a short period of time is getting repetitive. Also, well, a couple things. Like within the Ellen Bark and Tim Meadows episode, I mean, they are doing some misdirects within it. Like you watch it and you're like, this is all about them murdering each other, but in fact it wasn't. So that's a nice little, that's a nice little twist. I'll also say that like, I mean, this is, it's not really apples to apples because the production level, the everything about this is so far beyond the shows that it's inspired by from the 70s and 80s. But those shows in the 70s and 80s had, I would imagine, much larger writers rooms and much longer amounts of time to craft their 20 episodes than this room probably did. Plus with all the production of like, well, we're going to be in Albuquerque, but we're also going to be in upstate New York because Natasha lives in New York.

Like there's going to be a lot of, a lot more moving pieces and it's harder to do. I just started to feel like Judith Light and Esepathamirchison were so great in that episode. That, and it's Reburning, one of like the great stage actors of our time just shows up to be like, sorry, gang, heart attack. I felt the wind go out of my sales of that episode once it was like, yeah, they're actually just kind of bad. And now they're just going to beat each other up. Like I just, it was premise. And the premise and the performance has carried it. without question. I guess my note, not to be a scold, it's like if there's only going to be

eight to ten or twelve of these every two years. Have a little bit of fun with the structure. Well, I think I want... Here's my note. It got renewed. It deserves to be renewed. This is a great vehicle. It's a great success for Peacock. And so I am not... This is proof that I am not on anyone's dime when I say this. Take more time. Take your time. You know? Get them right. Take two years. Make kind of the best episodes ever. Let's have fun. Have you guys thought about a multiverse? You know, maybe go back in time. God, dude, Judith Light was on one.

She is always so good. She really is the, she's the sort of exception that proves the rule of like working late in life. Or it's like she's had, you know, five or six years of some of her best work. A million percent. Like, when you think about, I mean, we're dating ourselves, but like, we probably had this a similar conversation when she was crushing untransparent. Yeah. But like, that's really like, who's the boss? Like, that's the same person.

I know. I know. They didn't let her... Tony didn't let her cook. You know? Is that like us? Cook up the sodium, whatever. Are you going to have like an incredible late period renaissance once you get rid of me?

Once I'm elected president. Once I'm recast. Then finally. Andy, we'll be back on Monday to talk about Last of Us. Yeah. I'm really excited about that. We were produced as always by Kaii McMullen. Thank you, everybody, for bearing with us this week.

I promise to bring more energy next week. Do you understand that no one is no... You're great. Like, this is truly one of the great performances of our time. I feel like I didn't have like my usual, like, creative abandoned today, though. You gave it all to your three-hour golf podcast, and I get that. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to everybody for listening.

We'll be back on one day. Let's just keep cranking it out, Branskys.