The Watch - Anticipation for ‘Star Trek: Picard’ and Why You Should Be Watching ‘Cheer’ | The Watch

Episode Date: January 24, 2020

Andy gives an update on where he is in ‘Briarpatch’ production (4:33) and the guys preview some shows that are coming soon, including ‘Star Trek: Picard’ (11:21) and the ‘Star Wars’ series centered on Obi-Wan Kenobi (19:29). Plus: the reality TV moment that’s happening on Netflix (29:37). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. The Oscars are only two weeks away, and the Big Picture is breaking down everything you need to know leading up to the show. Hosts, Sean Fennacy and Amanda Dobbins take you through the favorites, snubs, and dark horse picks from this year's slate of movies. Tune in to The Big Picture on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys, what's up? This is Chris. We were just, you know, recording the watch today. I talked to Andy a couple hours ago during our recording session, and Andy and I,

were kind of casually talking about Canobi, the Obi-Wan Kenobi show that was supposed to be on the pluse from Star Wars and starring Yu and McGregor, directed by Deborah Chow, written by Hossein Amini, who is the writer of Drive and is a very acclaimed screenwriter. And we were just kind of banding it around because there had been some rumors a couple of weeks ago that the show is somehow in peril, that either Ewan McGregor had left or that there were creative differences on the show. And those rumors had been somewhat shot down,

although not necessarily officially shot down, but Andy and I were talking about this on the podcast today, as if that seemed to have blown over and Obi-Wan was going to come, Canobi was going to happen probably 2020, if not 2021, on Disney Plus. And then as we were sort of wrapping up the pod today, Hollywood Reporter released a story, and I'll just kind of quote a little bit of it here, that Disney Plus and Lucasfilm Star Wars Series Center on Obi-Wi-Wan Kenobi

has been put on hold as the company's attempt a retooling multiple sources told Hollywood Reporter. You read on, it sounds like they still want E. McGregor and Debra Chow to be part of this project. Debra Chow obviously coming off an incredible heater from her work on Mandalorian, directing some of that series' best episodes to date. So if you read down into this Hollywood Reporter piece, it sounds like the problem is with the scripts. Two had been completed. They started to get concerned about the creative direction of the show, and apparently its similarities to the Mandalorian because the Kenobi show was rumored to be about Obi-Wan looking over a young one.

Luke in some ways and that there was going to be kind of a older sort of samurai Jedi Knight figure who had like, I guess, Baby Luke, who to be honest, baby Luke's working from a very huge disadvantage because he's not going to be as cute as Baby Yoda. In any case, they've decided that there was some similarities or they didn't like the way things were going so they were going to stop down and retool and hope to still retain some of the other core people. I would have to imagine that Hussina Mini is not going to be part of the project going forward, but it doesn't necessarily state that explicitly. This is kind of another foul ball.

I guess if you're being generous for Lucasfilm. Obviously, the Mandalorian was a critical, and I would have to imagine commercial success given the fact that it was the flagship release of a streaming service that is very, very popular. Obviously, there's a lot of library and kids programming and Marvel stuff and Pixar stuff on there.

But Mandalorian is the thing that got most attention. And so whatever, was wrong with the rise of Skywalker and, you know, that movie still made a ton of money, it's just obviously I don't think is going to live on in the hearts and minds of Star Wars fans for decades to come. This is an unfortunate occurrence to happen after that because Star Wars lives on Front Street. Like all of the stuff that might happen to other movies and other television shows behind the scenes seems to be in front of the scenes for Star Wars. And, you know, obviously the rise of Skywalker went through a director change with Colin Trevereaux turning it over to JJ Abrams.

There were script rewrites. There were behind the scenes things that are kind of talked about. There was a couple weeks ago it was leaked about what Colin Trevoro's script would have been about or was about and how it was different from what Rise of Skywalker wound up being. And now we get to this point where a show that I think a lot of people are really excited about because not only does it feature a canonical beloved, maybe one of the most. most beloved non-Skywalker characters is put on hold. And I think people are really, really, really excited for this show. So hopefully they get it together because I think Ewan McGregor is a great Obi-Wan. I think Debra Chow's a great filmmaker. It's too bad that they were like, oh, turns out this is too much like the Mandalorian.

I'm sure that will be refuted in some shape or form. But I just wanted to give you guys a quick update and just my thoughts on the matter before we got into this show because Greenwald and I obviously discussed it without knowing that it had been put on hold. So let's get into today's episode of The Watch. and thanks for your time. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the wringer.com and joining me on the other line from an entirely new parking lot. It's Andy Greenwald! Guys, how does it sound? What do you think of the acoustics here?

You know, it's very different. There's a wall of foliage next to me. I don't want to, like, give you a geotag, but I'm in Burbank. So clearly it's a different microclimate than what you guys are used to. Yeah. Kai, how are the acoustics? Sounds great. I think the wall of foliage

is doing wonders for you. It's a natural sound barrier. Yeah, exactly. Chris, we got stuff to talk about, but two bits of business and we could, from my end, the parking lot end, and we can do them whatever order you want. Maybe the first one is to say

that we forgot to mention something on Monday. We sure did. We're doing a live show on Tuesday in Los Angeles, and I imagine people can still RSP for tickets, right? Yeah, it's at the Neway House on Tuesday in Hollywood. This is Tuesday, January 28th. Yes, and it's very close to the ringer offices, and we'll be showing the first episode of Briar Patch, a show that, you know, I can't say that I ghost wrote it contractually, but like maybe I had some creative input on. Andy. From what I understand, the Breyer Patch narrowly missed

Chris's list of most anticipated shows for 2020. So you're hoping we have an opportunity. You act like you don't listen, and then you do listen only for the things that you perceive as slights. No, no. You mischaracterize it. I do not listen to this podcast.

What I do do is obsessively search Facebook group posts for things that drag you. And that I read. So I know that I was not included on your list. But we're going to be showing the show, first episode of the show. We're going to have some special guests, including watch favorite. Sam Esmail will be there and some members of the cast. And it's going to be a really, really special and good time.

Like, we're not really doing premiere events. So a lot of the people who made a show are coming as well. Andy, I don't think we've ever actually done a live show as the watch. Is that true? Yeah, I think all this stuff we've done live, quote unquote, is, or not quote unquote, all the live stuff we've done is Thrones. Wow. We were in the pocket of Big Benny.

for so long that we've lost we've lost the site of what's really important in this world. In a way, I feel like we did a series of like pre-lim live episodes of the watch at Great Lakes, the bar on Fifth Avenue and Park Slope like in early 2000. Yeah, yeah.

That place closed, right? It's gone. It's gone. Yeah. All of our youths has gone. But we're going to do this. It's really exciting. And so we've tweeted the information you can go to the USA Network website to register. It's a free events, they'll be free valet. You just have to have RCP to guarantee yourself a seat. From what I

understand, it's not like first come, first serve. They will not give you the RCP if they are full. Yeah. If you have been replied to, you should be able to get in and we will be excited to see you. And I would love to say that Kai is going to be there. I think what really is more likely to happen is that she'll be driving down sunset on cruise control. So we'll see her as she is driving at 36 miles per hour exactly. And then maybe on the way back. When people say like, Chris, you've changed since you moved to LA. I don't think it's generally true. The first thing you said about our live event

was that it was convenient to your office. That's the most L.A. thing about all of this. Yeah, I've been getting, I've been really getting, people have really been hitting the reply button on me on the cruise control thing. Look, I guess it's cool that people use it in the middle of the country. It just seems like one of those things that they add to cars where it's like,

part of driving is just being responsible for how fast you're going. Wow, Chris. Shots fired. All of our Wisconsin listeners are just shaking their heads and discussed. Maybe they're just sticulating with their hands, like an old Italian nona, because they don't have their hands on the wheel,

because they're cruise controlling. I'm taking on the ethanol lobby, like I'm Tom Wilkinson and Michael Clayton or something. Did you have another piece of business you wanted to discuss? I did. I just wanted to let people, like, since we were talking about the show a little bit, and I'm in a different parking lot,

we've entered this super weird phase of post-production where the episodes are, kind of mostly done. They're all locked except for the finale, picture lock. So we're not really picture editing anymore, but we're doing things that are, like, the level of minutia is so wild, where

today I was with good friend of the podcast and Breyer Patch Star, Jay Ferguson, doing some ADR recording of dialogue, and then came over here to Burbank for not color correction because our brilliant DP has color corrected the episodes,

Zach Galler. I'm reviewing his work. So now I'm sitting in a dark theater watching my TV show with the sound off, holding a laser pointer, being like, is that cheese really popping? Maybe a little more orange in that. So that's cool. And then the rest of the time, we're mixing the audio on the stage. So that's almost all sound design. And being reminded, oh, I never picked an alt for the Chinese restaurant in episode 105. So part of me believes that this is all a plot by big, basic, cable to just keep me feeling busy, so I'm not freaking out. Oh, just giving you tasks that are essentially just like meaningless? Maybe all these decisions have already been made. I see.

You know what I mean? Like it's possible. But this is, you know, I like to, I like to show you guys how the sausage is made. And this is the least glamorous part of the sausage. I imagine it's also pretty like, now you're just like on pins and needles waiting for people to start to start seeing this, right? We don't need to see it. I'm pretty process-oriented. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Just like, they call me the Sam Hinky of Universal. No, I am really excited for people to see it. Like, one of the really nice things about, and I joke about how long it's been going on, because, you know, we filmed the pilot, which will air two weeks from tonight. We filmed it in September of 2018.

the amount of time and space is actually an incredible gift because then we're on the mixed stage watching episodes three and four for the first time all the way through in quite some time. I was like, that's pretty good. I liked it. Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of the stress has melted away. So, no, I'm very excited.

And let me just bring it full circle to say again, I'm so excited that we'll get to share the first episode with podcast listeners because you guys lift me up. So I think it's going to be really fun. Well, they drag me down. They lift you up. that's why the dynamic is working for me Andy

you know we we did such a good job of surveying the current TV moment on Monday's pod that we kind of are like out of shows to talk about so we have to talk about shows that are coming I mean like I could talk we we should I guess talk about Picard because that's the one that you I seem

you really have your antennas up in the air about this do you even have CBS all access I don't Okay. I want to tell you something. Just you and my 100,000 closest friends and Facebook commenters, I might fuck around and get it today. Yeah, dog.

Do it. I mean, I got to be honest with everybody. Like, I know, look, we all, we all have bits that we do. Because then you can also get that Bob loves Abashola going. You know what I mean? You can get mom going? What about, can I get, like, first access to evil reruns? There's a lot going on for me.

Evil's supposed to be good. I know. I also want to say, I have never felt that CBS as a brand restricted its access. You know what I mean? Like, I've never tuned in to everybody loves Raymond

so I can stop there. But had I, I've never tuned into everybody loves Raymond and was like, I feel like they're holding out on me. I want more access. Right. It's a weirdly named service.

Here's what I want to say to you, Chris. We all do bits, we all characters, and like roles we play particularly on a podcast. And I know that sometimes, you know,

old grumpy scene over here, like isn't so into fan boy culture, doesn't get excited about stuff anymore, he's jaded, I really want to watch Star Trek Picard. I just really want to watch it. And I think I was in, like, some level of, like,

seen it all denial that it's, but those posters, and then the reviews embargo broke today and people were really into it. But, I, yes, I think it's going to be good. Yes, I'm very impressed by the imprimatur,

of the everything involved, Michael Sheabon, the great American novelist is the showrunner of the show. But look, man, I just want to watch it because Chris, I'm a Picard guy.

So I can be honest with you. I got to tell you that next gen, I've never really been like that big of a Star Trek guy and I don't mean that pejoratively at all. It's just like, I kind of like, I think Next Generation was kind of big

when I was like, I was kind of like, you know, honestly a three sport athlete, just doing a lot, socially. I knew. I knew. Try to choose between baseball and competitive swimming.

Chris was wearing cleats and cruise controlling all around West Philadelphia. When was peak Star Trek Next Gen? When was that, like when was it on? Like, it was like 87 to 94. Come on, that's like my peak, dude. You can't say that. I can't be responsible to watch Star Trek Next Generation then. That's true.

When you were 10, you definitely had a lot of better things to do. Here's the thing. I am one of those people that I watched Next Gen before the original. And I was super into it. It's really good. So that generationally kind of was my Star Trek. And I'd like to think that even then I knew that Patrick Stewart was way too good to be a part of the show and elevated everything about it. And what's kind of exciting is that for a lot of his performance in Star Trek and then,

you know, in other Star Trek movies and projects that I've enjoyed, and I've enjoyed a lot of them. But like Christopher Plummer in Star Trek 6, you know, is just owning the screen and hamming it up and selling all this stuff under Klingon makeup is that the secret sauce was that they cast really talented stage actors in, you know, I don't want to call, I don't want to belittle it, but they were budget limited, let's say, certainly when they were making 24 episodes of those a year. And they elevated the material. And so the conceit behind the show. show that's so cool is it appears that they were like, well, now we can elevate the material to suit the actor and build it around, I don't think it's arguable to say the best actor who's ever been a part of this franchise, right? I, as someone who loved the character, and I'm just going to be honest with you guys from this parking lot in Burbank, I love the stuff when he was just like on his brother's vineyard in France. I was like, this combined many of my interest. What's his brother's name? Bernard or something. I don't know. That's right.

No, just like that this show seems to be using that as a starting place. And I'm just into it. It just seems fun. And I am very eager to watch something entertaining and fun. Do you remember where Star Trek Next Generation left off? Yeah. Do you want to tell the listeners? Between a loving poker, a loving poker match on whatever deck between our characters.

And then there were the movies. Oh, right. Okay. But like the last. They took care of the board, though, right? They took care of that thing. Yeah, that problem's solved now. That's fine.

Okay. That's fine. That's not like a bad rash that we'll come back for sure. No, the last movie was Nemesis where Patrick Stewart squared off against his doppelganger who was young Tom Hardy. Back in his, like, leather rent boy. That's right. Photo days.

Yeah. You're not as, you're more dubious about this show than I am. No, you know, I mean, look, this is, I really am interested in what they're doing with the Star Trek as a first. franchise by like chopping it up into verticals basically to not to use like corporate editorial speak, but by basically allowing each one of these shows to have a different feel and playing around with crossover, it almost feels like a hybrid of blockbuster franchise filmmaking along with the kind of high volume stuff that the CW is doing with the DC characters. So I'll be curious to

see, I'm obviously going to watch this. I think it's really interesting that Michael Shabon's show running a Star Trek thing. I have to watch it as a two. I have to watch it as a 2020 citizen. I'll be curious to see specifically, like if you're going to sign up somebody like Patrick Stewart, how unlimited or limited it feels and how serialized it feels or episodic it feels because, you know, this has been in the works for a while.

And over the course of time in between when they announced Picard and when now it's actually debuting, I almost feel like people have sort of started to orient themselves more towards like a Mandalorian-style storytelling where it is Adventure of the Week, which should suit Star Trek's storytelling powers best. You know, Star Trek is best when it's doing Adventure of the Week

with a slight overarching narrative, right? Well, what if I told you? That's not at all what this is doing. Oh. In fact, maybe totally out of step with time because this is pure serialized. He starts in one place, some stuff happens, and week to week, the thing builds into something else.

Okay. So we're not going to do, like, I had to stop along the way and fix this problem for another planet? I don't think so. So it's interesting. You're right that it, the review in the Times today,

which is a really good summation of sort of where it is and the world is being birthed into, basically was saying that this is Star Trek's first play as a prestige TV show on that serialized model. But what's also interesting about it because you were talking about it

in relation to the Mandalorian and the way that a lot of these bigger brands are, you're right, like chopping themselves up We thought the Marvel model would be the model, but the Marvel model is so hard to replicate. And so the DC model that seemed so chaotic at first now seems to be working just fine for them,

where there are three flashes. Sometimes they cross over on TV or sometimes they don't. This is the rare thing where my interest in Patrick Stewart playing the card far outstrips my interest in a Star Trek show. Yeah. You know, I've heard great things about Discovery. I like the cast a lot. I haven't watched it because, as previously discussed,

I do not require all access to PBS, but also I'm good. You know what I mean? I'm fine. I don't need more Star Trek in my life right now, but I do want more of this. And I wonder if that's a similar calculation or conversation will be having when the Ewan-Kin-McGregor Obi-One-Kin-Kin-Kin show comes back. Exactly. Or comes back.

There was that crazy story like a week ago about whether or not that was actually going to happen or if Ewan McGregor had walked away from that show. I don't think that that, I don't know that ever got corroborated, but there was like that weird rash of stories that, that, that, that show had been, was somehow in jeopardy over creative differences. Have you seen anything following up that? No, and in fact, I realized, as I said it,

has it ever officially been confirmed? Yeah, I think so. I think it's, it's Ewan McGregor is doing it, and Hussein Amini, who wrote Drive is writing it, and Debra Chow's directing it. So it's like, of course, yeah, I'm really excited about it. But, you know, it's funny that we even say this, because I feel like right now

is like this very weird time where things will either get announced, sometimes it'll even have trailers, Sometimes they even have release dates or have been released, and I can't quite believe that they're actually happening. There was a movie two weeks ago called The Informer, which Sean Fennacy and I were like, they made a movie for us.

It's Joel Kinnaman plays like a DEA agent who has to like go undercover in prison. And then Rosamund Pike is wearing like a teal Nike track suit and plays an FBI agent who's like kind of running him. And it's just like basically like Den of Thieves, you know, just like, classic January, February genre movie release. Sean and I were like,

Friday afternoon, you and I were going to get subs at this restaurant, at this sandwich place on LaBreya, and then we were going to go catatonic and go into see the Informer, and we're the only two people are going to go see it. And straight up, Sean was just like, I just looked up showtimes for the Informer, which was being released like two Fridays ago,

and he's like, it is not playing in Los Angeles. And I guess like the company that's releasing it is in financial disrepair or something maybe, so it just kind of vanished. This is happening again where I'm like, I went and saw the new Guy Ritchie movie Gentleman last night. And as I was watching it,

I was like, I can't believe this is actually a thing that is happening. I mean, for people who don't know, it's the new guy Ritchie movie that's kind of a return to his snatch, rock and rolla, lockstock and two smoking barrels form. And it stars,

gosh, it stars so many people. It stars Matthew McCannie as a weed dealer, as a weed like sort of emperor, more than that. He runs all of pot in London or in England. Hugh Grant plays a slime ball private investigator who works for a Daily Mail-style tabloid. Colin Farrell plays an Irish boxing coach who seems to be dressed exclusively in Red Bull-Salzburg track suits. And Michelle Dockery plays a Cockney gangster mall who also owns a car detailing shop that it caters exclusively to the wives and girlfriends of gangsters.

And that's a movie that is real and it exists and it's coming out. Also, Jeremy Strong is in it and Charlie Hunnam is in it. It's quite an experience, but it's one of those things where you're just like, am I imagining that this is happening or did they actually spend $45 million on this? I do wonder if we could ever have a moment to slow down and like compile a list of fake projects, both real and fictional and quiz. us on them, like how we would do. And part of it, I mean, Guy Ritchie making that movie after I have spending five years of his

adult life making a live action Aladdin. I get it. Yeah. That seems like a logical pendulum swing. But the idea of there being a, you know, whether it's a Ewan McGregor, OV1 Canobe TV show, or any of those Marvel Cinematic Universe TV shows that are coming over the next year plus, or even this Picard show as like an adult prestige drama with Patrick Stewart nearly at age 80

returning to play the character. There was a moment that we didn't even mark or notice unless there was a podcast where we specifically marked and noticed it maybe the one where I talked about Picard before. I don't remember. But this is the stuff. I mean, there's two tiers to this new entertainment paradigm. Like 20 years ago, or I guess 21 years ago,

right before the X-Men movie came out. The idea of there being movies based on the most popular comic book characters of all time still felt ridiculous and impossible. Like Tim Burton's Batman had done it and then they'd screwed it up with the Joel Schumacher sequels

and so there were no more superheroes and that was never going to happen. Right. So that was accepting that all of a sudden not only were those things going to happen that they were going to become the predominant whatever entertainment of our time. That was one big leap.

But now we get into the second tier projects that feel fully birthed from the brains of just people who go to conventions is wild because there were these stumbling blocks, all of which have fallen, right? Whether they were stumbling blocks of budget, certainly to do things for television, where there were stumbling blocks of stature, where if you were a movie star and you had played a part in a movie, you wouldn't play it again. And you certainly wouldn't play it again for television. Sure.

Right? Sure. But all of that's gone out of the way. window and part of it is the shifting paradigm is a lot of it is just money you know i think i think probably 20 years ago movie stars would have been perfectly happy to be on tv shows if they had been paid the exact same rate they get paid for movies um but the degree and the speed to which it happened so that you know here we are just named casually name dropping projects that probably would have taken up an entire podcast from the two of us six years ago oh yeah it's pretty remarkable i do think that we're

going to probably have to start a binge mode for the Peterberg film Spencer Confidential. Just because... Where are you with this? Well, okay, so it stars Mark Wahlberg and Winston Duke. It's coming out in like two weeks on Netflix. And it's a, obviously, it's a take on, I think it's Robert Parker's Spencer novels. And there used to be Spencer for hire back in the 80s with Robert Ulrich.

But the thing they jumped out... Do you remember the short-lived spin-off, call me Hawk? Yeah, man, that was... That show was dope. I watched that. But this one, this supporting... Oh, I'm sorry, Chris.

You had time to watch Spencer for higher spin-off between your busy schedule of literally competitive swimming and cruising? I made traveling All-Stars before guys started throwing off-speed stuff. I'll have you know that I was a real prospect.

When everybody was five-four, you know, I was like really like a giant among small people there. So until when they started throwing curveballs, I lost my ability to hit. What a legendary way to say you two were also 5'4. That was amazing.

But do you know who the supporting cast is for this Spencer movie that Bird has? Let's talk about it. Marin? Right. Mark Marin, Alan Arkin, and Eliza Schlesinger playing essentially that Saturday Night character who's like the wife of the boxer who's like, I'm going to take my kids to my sisters. It's incredible stuff.

Hollywood, man. You guys are just the Dream Factory. I have a lot of time for Mark Maren character actor. I'm a big fan. Greenwald, do you have anything else you want to hit before we sign off for the week? God. Are we signed it off for the week? Well, I mean, if you have time, we can just keep chatting, whatever you want to do. I don't think so. No, I haven't watched Curb yet. Anything else happen?

No, not really. Did you see anything else that happened, Kaya? That you were like, man, if I only had Chris and Andy to talk about this? My life has been consumed by cheer. Okay. It's all I care about right now. Okay. We're going to have a letter of a recommendation from Kai McMullen about this. All right.

So, Andy, we can wrap it. I do love talking to you from this parking lot. I got to tell you, the temperature here is divine today. But I do have to go sit in a dark room and watch the sixth episode of my show on mute. It's really something else. All right. Well, just a final thing. I know you're going to keep recording some other conversation, but without me.

but if you haven't signed up for this thing on Tuesday, if you're L.A. at Jace, we would love to see you. I think it's going to be great. Excited to share the show with you guys first. Absolutely. And hope to see you guys there, Beranski's. Yeah, see you guys soon and talk to you soon. Bye.

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Bank United. Bank United wants you to go for more. Enter for a chance to win $54,000 if a team goes for and completes a two-point conversion during the big game on February 2nd. All you do is follow. at BankUnited on Twitter and tweet at Bank United your answer to what would you do with $54,000 using the hashtag, Go For More 54. For official rules, visit www.

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Shop in-store online or download the app and get 20% off-select items with the promo code reel. That's the Reelreel.com promo code Reel for 20% off-select items. All right, guys, welcome back to The Watch. I am here with producer Kaya. Kaya say hello. Hello. And Kaya, who you may know from all of the advertisements she does for cruise control in American cars.

No comment. No comment. Why didn't you keep saying no comment? This is not a Rand Contra. You're trying to make cruise control like my brand or something. Okay. What would you like to be your brand? Chearing perhaps?

Cheer. That's like, so that was my segue. Kaya is here to talk about cheer. but we have a little bit of a broader discussion about the reality TV moment because I am a little bit of a stranger in a strange land when it comes to reality TV. But I think, Kyya, you're a little bit more of like a, that's your go-to sometimes, right? Sometimes. I mean, I wouldn't call myself a reality TV fanatic. I have a few shows that I really enjoy. But I'm not the type that every, like, I'm not like every single show on Bravo I have to watch.

But you know what I kind of like about reality television is that it's the last bad. of like real personal taste. Like for narrative TV, for scripted stuff, you feel this kind of pressure to keep up with the Joneses and watch the big shows and watch the critically acclaimed shows and I gotta keep up on watchmen.

I got to keep up on this. But with reality, it's like, you just look at Steven Soderberg's Media Diary from 2019. He's just like, I just watch below deck every night dog. And I also watch four classic films. But like, that guy puts down more below deck than any other human being

who is not on below deck. More or less, The thing about reality TV is that more or less, it's pure pleasure watching. Yes. You're not watching because you are like, oh, I want to see this new, like, experimental style of filming, or I want to see David Fincher on TV or et cetera, et cetera. You're watching because they're like, this is like true crime or this is people getting in fights or this is people on yachts.

People trapped somewhere getting in fights and having true crimes. Yeah, exactly. Now, so my reality television tastes stretch from a lot of Alaskan Gold Rush TV, I find to be really weirdly, although I think it's called just Gold Rush or whatever. And I got really into a couple of the characters, but I had a real, oh my God, when I watched them like dig up some part of the Alaskan tundra. And I was like, oh, I wonder if he's going to find the enough kilograms to make it through winter. and I was like, holy shit, he's just tearing a hole in Mother Earth. Like, it was like the real like environmental impact of it really hit me. Oh, wow.

And I felt like very complicit. Do you think that that's like something? Do you ever have those feelings when you're watching reality television where you're enjoying it, enjoying it, enjoying it? And then it's almost like a drug wears off. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I get that with Vanderpump a lot. Like, and I think I've mentioned this before, that when I started binging Vanderpump

Rul's to catch up with everything, it was like the first episode, great. the second episode, great. And then by the third, you get to the third episode and you're like, oh my God, I kind of have like a headache. Yeah, my shoot-o cheese whiz into my carotid artery. Exactly. It feels like you're coming down off of like a sugar rush because it's just there's very, very little substance. And that's not true for all reality TV, but for a lot of it there is. Yeah.

And in some ways, I think a lot of the like the discourse and dialogue and writing and podcasting about reality television, it kind of is like in some ways more interesting than some of it. sometimes, like, criticism of scripted shows because there is so much of, like, of an open-ended read. Like, there are some people who see Vanderpump as Shakespearean. There are some people who think of it as just, like, basically a sitcom, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you watch it?

More of a sitcom. Yeah. Though I could see the Shakespearean elements, I guess. Yeah. Sure. I'm sure the bard has written characters like Jacks before. I guess he would be, like, in Henry the Fourth, too. He was, like, who's the drunk guy who was always hanging out with the prince and Henry

the fourth? Did you really just ask me a question about Shakespeare? But you don't want to be the cruise control person and you don't want to be the literary classics person. You don't have to tell me who you are. Okay. So, Kaya, I kept asking today, you know, the day shook out funny. So I kept asking Kaya, like, what would you want to talk about? And it's just like cheer. Like, it almost like a bot. I basically invited myself on to talk about cheer. It's okay. This is a show for passions. And you have as much of a voice of this show as anyone. So you have the floor. Tell me why Cheer on Netflix is amazing.

First, tell me a little bit about what it is, and then tell me why you love it. Okay, so Cheer is a six-part docu-series that premiered on Netflix. I'm actually coming a little bit late to it. I think it premiered at the beginning of January. And I saw a lot of people on Twitter talking about it. Oh, my God, this is so good.

This is so good. Reese Witherspoon tweeted about it. I've never heard of her. And so it follows a college-level cheerleading team out of Corsicana, Texas. Okay. And they're not like a four-year college, just like a junior college. And it's called Navarro College. And they are essentially basically the best college cheerleading team in the country.

And so, and they go and they compete every year in like this national cheerleading competition. I think it's like basically like what's the college football championship called? Like the Rose Bowl, you mean? Like, you mean like the name of the bowl? Oh, it's just like the national college football. Yeah, it's just like they compete for a national title. And the interesting part about it is that after college level cheerleading, there is no like professional cheerleading. You know, so it's like it's not like these kids could go on afterwards and be like, I'm going to be a pro cheerleader.

Like you could go and play football college. sure. And go be a pro football player. So it's like, for a lot of these people, this is their last chance to compete in the sport they live. Literally like, and there's like a other very popular. Last chance you. That's right. My coworker Craig, a fellow prod producer, was also telling me about that show today.

Yes. And I was telling him that normally I wouldn't be interested in it. But because I love cheer so much, I think I'm going to go watch it after. That's how good this show is. Oh, my God. There's like eight seasons. of last chance of you, aren't there? Great.

Sounds good. Okay. But so, okay, back to cheer. It's following the Navarro College cheerleading team as they prepare for the 2019 competition, basically. And it's really, really intense. It kind of focuses on, like, six main people, three girls and, like, three guys. And it's really intense and it's really emotional. And it's really, oh, and the coach.

who I want to be my mom now. What's the coach like? So the coach's name is Monica Aldama. And basically she's this woman and she grew up in Corsicana and she was planning on going. She was like, I want to go into like Wall Street and working on Wall Street in New York when she was like a kid. And so she went to UT and she got her finance degree and she got her MBA and she was planning to go work on Wall Street. And then one of her friends was like, hey, I need someone to fill in and come coach this cheerleading team. And she had been a cheerleader growing up.

And she's like, okay, sure. I'll do that for a little bit. And then, like, I'm going to go work on Wall Street. And then she basically was, like, loved it so much that she just stayed. And now she is, like, this really, like, really, really talented cheerleading coach. Um, who basically, like, is no bullshit. and has an insane amount of attention to detail and also often fills in as like a substitute mother figure or like mentor

for a lot of these kids who, if it wasn't for cheerleading, probably wouldn't be in college at all. Do you feel like the drama of the show is derived mostly from the extra cheering aspects, like who people are dating or whether they've twisted their ankle or whether or not like they're going to be able to like make tuition and stuff? it very much like what happens in the gym that's exciting? Yeah, no. Actually, that's a great question because there's really, really no personal drama. Oh, interesting.

It's like interpersonal drama whatsoever. It's all, I would say like 75% of the show is literally them in the gym on mat, as they say, and trying to get this routine down. And like even, like I was watching last night and I think this is around like episode five and this isn't a Spoiler. Though I don't really know if you can spoil the show. But it seems like there's some drama between like one of the flyers and one of the stenters after he like accidentally drops her so and so. And they go in and off to the side and like go and like talk.

And then the, uh, you can hear a producer ask them, hey, can we film this and say, they say no, it's private. Oh. And they shut the door. Interesting. Yeah. They really, there's really not a lot of focus on interpersonal drama at all. So it's like the anti Friday night lights.

It's like Friday night lights if it was all football. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Are you somebody who cared about cheering before you watched cheer? A little bit. Like, was it in your high school? Yeah, there was a cheer team at my high school. My younger sister was a cheerleader. Actually, the coach in cheer reminds me of the coach of my high school's cheerleading team.

And my younger sister actually tore her ACL cheerleading. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's a really gnarly sport. Like, they're in one of the, like, facts pointed out of the show is that more injuries. come from cheerleading than any other sport. And you really, watching the show, you really realize the physicality of the sport and just how dangerous it is because you see these people, it's like, you just see these guys and girls, like throwing the flyers who are most often small women up into the air and, like, they're going

like 10 feet into the air and they're spinning. And then you see them get dropped over and over again. and you're like, oh, my God, like, they just fell like 20 feet in the air. Sure. On to a basically, like, a slightly padded mat. And every single time they're, like, they're trying to build a pyramid, basically, as part of their routine. And every single time they're trying to build their pyramid, you're just, like, sitting there with your, like, fist clenched and your teeth clenched. Like, don't drop them.

Don't drop them. Was there something about cheer that made it so intoxicating because you could just keep watching it? because this obviously is a Netflix release. So it's one of those things where it's like, I watched my wife completely give her life over to the Circle recently. Now, I definitely got it. I think that I was like a little bit more, I don't know if like alarmed at the content of the Circle.

I was like just sort of like, this is ingenious and way to 21st century for me. But like what, do you think that part of it was like the binge watch for cheer? Yeah. Absolutely. I think, let's see, I started sheer, I think, Monday night of this week, and it's now Thursday night, and I'm almost done. And I haven't been watching episode by episode. I've been leaving off in the middle of an episode and then watching like an episode of an half. Okay. And then coming back to it. The Andy Greenwald Irishman plan then. Exactly. The six-hour movie plan. But then, yeah, something as far as a circle goes, I couldn't get into it.

I watched like five minutes of the first episode. And I think the first two people they showed were just like way too, I don't know. Extra? Yes. Yeah. And it just... I think I'm just like a little, like, this is going to sound stranger than I mean to sound. Like, catfishing is not my bag.

Like, I think it's bad. It's not something that I like really want to even know more about than I do. I never watched catfish. It just seems like every time you read a catfish, story, you're like, oh my God, I can't believe this is happening. And I know that there's a couple of characters on the circle that are, and not catfishing per se, but are, you know, the whole premise is like, is this person who they say they are? Right. And you're trying to judge, from my understanding, you're trying to judge this person's

character via their social media. Yeah, I guess we should say is like the circle, if you haven't seen it, is essentially this reality show that Netflix put out. And I think they put it out and like they would release like a couple of episodes a week. And it was a big, Brothers style show, reality show, where these people are living in, like, what looks like an apartment building in Los Angeles, I'm not sure where they shot it. And they're essentially like detectives and they're like both the hunted and the prey. So like they're both trying to investigate and also obfuscate about who they are and who other people are. And they do this by communicating through largely like a kind of like TV. It's like a voice messaging system.

It is like it's basically Siri. It's like you're just saying like, like message to all people here's like, I'm asking everybody who's in this apartment building this question. And then you would start to like single out certain people and be like, hey, Alana, like, tell me about like the funniest thing you've ever done on a first date. And the whole time they're kind of like trying to address whether or not this person is who they say they are or whether they're going to have like alliances.

There's nothing like new about it other than the feeling that like the people who are on the show are so fluent in a very digital way of communicating that that almost freaked me out as much as ever, anything. Yeah, I think that was also another one of my, like, reluctancies about watching because it just struck me as like a black mirror episode, like come to life. Yes, yeah. And it's like sometimes it's like, oh, wow, it's like black mirror. And then there are sometimes we're like, uh, oh, wow, this is like black mirror. We didn't really take the lessons we were supposed to take from Black Mirror.

Yeah, maybe. All right. So we have, we have very much recommended cheer on behalf of Kai McMullen. We recommend with some reservations the circle on behalf of, I guess me. I won't put you there. there, my wife. Juliette Lippman loves the circle. I mean, people really like it around the office.

They're like, it's very addictive show. And what was interesting about that was Netflix released it in batches, right? Yes, it was an interesting gambit on their part because I think what a lot of people are wondering is if Netflix will try. Because I think Netflix has very good shows that get lost because of the binge. The binge model is like a little bit under fire from the TV. intellectual bubble. By which I mean, people who think and talk about television on social media, I think are increasingly ignoring some Netflix shows because they come and go, they all go up on a Friday, the people who are super into the society or whatever, or Messiah or what have you,

are watching it. But it's impossible to like dole out sort of content and takes and reviews and discussions about it because you never know where people are in a season. And we've seen this sort of almost whiplash effect where now I feel like people are much more into at least the Hulu model where things go up. There's a couple episodes and then it's week to week after that. If not the HBO model, which is this once a week appointment viewing where at least, you know, you may be behind on the outsider, but people aren't that much farther ahead of you than on the outsider. You know what I mean? And I think that that's been kind of the challenge of capturing the zeitgeist for these Netflix shows. But the problem is, is that as we say over

and over again, I don't know that Netflix is necessarily in the zeitgeist business. They seem to be really interested in it when it comes to movies. They seem to be fine with the Crown being an awards hit, if not, like, it's very hard to, like, know if people have seen episode six of the Crown and whether you can talk about it, you know, you don't know if people have seen episode three. So, you know, we try to dole it out episode by episode or in little chapters. But I almost feel like the circle thing was like the first volley in, like, let's experiment with different ways to put shows out.

I think it paid off well for them. There's a lot of conversation about that show. There sure was. There sure was. It was trending. Yeah. It certainly did what it was supposed to do. Okay, Kai, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you for having me. We will be back next week. I will be in Sundance. So I'm going to be recording over the weekend with some folks who are in Sundance, and I'll try to do an outsider recap. And we'll have some fun guests over the weekend. And then Greenwald and I will be back next Thursday. So, fun week of the watch.

Thank you for listening. And we'll talk to you soon.