The Watch - Are We Headed for a Prestige TV Slump? Plus, ‘White Lotus’ S2E2

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about some of the signs that we may be heading from a surplus of prestige TV shows to a lack of them (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episode of ‘The White Lotus’ and Mike White’s very specific vision for Season 2 (23:00), before taking a moment to remember Mimi Parker of the band Low, who passed away over the weekend (42:02). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

An Instagram post gets an unexpected boost. A TikTok catches in the algorithm. Sometimes that's all it takes to launch someone into internet fame. But then what? This blew up is a new podcast documentary that reveals how social media stardom is made. It's a different kind of fame. That's not always as glamorous as it looks. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Alyssa Beresneck.

You can listen to This Blue Up on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoradic arthritis.

serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks.

Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run.

Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. Just done with a day-long Vespa tour. It's Andy Greenwald. You were a gentle driver. I definitely clenched your torso.

You clenched too tight. I clenched a little tight. I clenched a little tight, but I'm a nervous cyclist. Andy, it's great to see you, man. I think everybody knows that about me. I hope you're doing well. I know you're doing well. I talk to you all the time.

But we talk publicly on Mondays and Thursdays, except this week. just a little programming note before we get into White Lotus episode two and a variety of other things. I just wanted to mention that our second show of the week will go on Wednesday because we were lucky enough to talk

to Tony Gilroy again and we will be breaking down episode 10 of Andor on our Wednesday show and that will also encompass basically like all the episodes that happened in between the first conversation we had with Tony which was after the first three or four episodes I believe

and episode 10. So we'll talk about Aldani, we'll talk about prison, we'll talk about spy craft, all that stuff. Tony Gilroy was amazing. We were really excited to have him back on the watch. Is Tony the third chair of the podcast? At this point?

That's a good question. Would you rather, if we had to have a third? Yeah. Would you rather it be one of the three people? Okay. Kate Winslet. Wow. Tony Gilroy.

Uh-huh. Bill Simmons. Well, two of those people have been on this podcast. Bill's been on the watch Has he? Has he? Has he? Has he been on the watch? Yeah. I don't know if Bill's been on the watch. I think he came on Hollywood.

Bill's done like, I'm walking by the office. What are you guys talking about? I'm in this pod now. That was a Hollywood prospectus thing, though. That was when we had an office. No, he used to do that at the ringer. Did he? I don't know.

I'm just saying. It's not a one-way street with you and Bill. He loves you as much as you love him. You know? Listen. I'm not. trying to dis the boss who signs the checks. I'm just saying Kate Winsland and Tony Gilroy, you know, are very, very public fans of

this podcast. They come on all the time. They talk about us all the time on their other podcasts. I know. So who would I rather is a, look, this is tough. I feel like Kate could hang. You know what I mean? I do too.

I worry about her whether or not she, like, watches enough contemporary television. I don't worry anything about her, first of all. I think that's concerned trolling of the highest order. I think that Kate, here's the thing, just for some background stuff. Tony, we adore, and he's like, he's my professional hero. I think he's one of your heroes as well. He couldn't be nicer, he couldn't be kinder. And then he's on to the next one.

You know, he's a busy guy. He's off to London after this last interview. Kate, the last time she came on, I love saying that, by the way. The last time Oscar and Emmy winner Kay Winslow came on the podcast, she was like, are we done recording? And we were like, yes. And then she talked for 20 more minutes. That's true. that's true. We didn't get extra time with Tony off the record.

Just rhythmically, though, who would you rather replace me with, just hypothetically? Because you're definitely not planning that. Of those three. Because it's very easy, branding-wise, to just re-christen this watchables. You know what I mean? The watchables. Like, I think that's already there. No. I don't think I could replace you. I could. Okay. I think you and I have a mutually assured destruction pack.

Do we? I like that. We're like Greg and Tanya in White Lotus season two. I do want to talk about White Lotus. Chris, I did have one, I don't know if you had some stuff at the top of the... I do.

I do. I have a very general question. I don't know if you want to do... Okay. Is this going to be like very like narrow casting? I just wanted to talk more about... I feel like we didn't pay attention to the playwright Tom Stoppard's middle period,

and so we should list a couple more plays. No, no. I just wanted to address maybe the biggest scandal this podcast has seen since the time I questioned whether Better Call Saul was going to the stick the landing, which it did. And I'm referring to, of course, you know, everyone's talking about it. People are talking, a scandalizing event last week when we talked about how amazing this last run of Atlanta episodes have been. And we were speaking about last week's episode. And it was about the goofy movie, okay, which was a Disney film. And there was some confusion out there as to my

awareness of the existence of the goofy movie. And also my attention paid. to the story of the movie and all the details of it. So I have a two-prong response. One, you got me on one thing. So I definitely thought some of the animation was created for this episode of Atlanta. I didn't think all of it, but my language did suggest that I thought it was entirely created for this episode. I apologize. Second point, as an adult, I was not checking for the fucking goofy movie at 1995.

So you know what? I don't apologize for that. I don't apologize for that. And you were not outside like Andy Greenwald in 1995. In 1995, guys, there was a new guided by voices EP every week. You think I was looking for Jeffrey Katzenberg's doomed? No. No.

Borders books life. Yes. Yes. So you guys know me and some of you like me as the mayor pro tempore of Datington Island, right? Like it is not a position. You know, that's how people know me. I watch the content. I have a lot of opinions about it.

saw a bluey episode, season three episode over the weekend that destroyed me at Whale Watching, highly recommended. Natalie Portman does a voice on it. I don't know if you guys knew that. But that doesn't mean I was always like, feed me the cartoons. Do you understand that from like 1992 until 2013, I got nothing. I got nothing for you. You know what I mean?

Like, I didn't read the Harry Potter books. I didn't read the Harry Potter books. I was going to bars. I'm sorry. So I apologize. I apologize. I apologize to the fans of the goofy movie. I am not the demographic who clearly, like Donald Glover, was influenced by this film. I don't think it takes away from my rapturous praise of the episode. And it's even more clever that they were dancing around aspects of reality. So I apologize. But also I don't apologize. Is that concise? I like that we are starting to, I don't know whether this is an homage or whether we're aping, but like we are really like falling into this like at the top of every show now. I feel like you have a Mia Coppa. And it's a lot like one of my favorite podcast. Trapp Drape,

which is a golf-adjacent podcast, I guess you can say. It's not really about golf at all, but it's from the no laying-up guys. And these guys start every episode with just like their mea-culpas and their statements and like all that. And just like,

I think that you're following suit. Like every episode here is about accountability going forward. I am about nothing, if not accountability. For example, also on Thursday's podcast, I said that the Philadelphia Phillies

were going to win the World Series. Yeah, they didn't. That didn't happen. But you don't think that you jinxed them. No. So then why am I always accused of jinxing stuff? Like, you just did that. Like, you just think that, like, now you've kind of released the superstition.

Okay. I live my life out loud. That's why, Chris. You know what I mean? Like, I... Also, do you know what jinxed the Phillies? What jinks the Phillies was having runners on with two outs and Reese Hoskins being like, I'm going to win this game with a nine run home run now.

Yeah, in the second inning. Yeah. In the second inning with one swing. It's called situational hitting, guys. Now that we've come to the end of the baseball season, Andy, you'll recommit yourself to the landscape of streaming television and prestige TV. Because I have a question for you. Okay.

I wonder whether or not we will reconvene this time next year and ask, did we know how good we had it? Because I've been really enjoying, and I really love Matt Bellany's podcast, The Town, that he does with Craig Whirlbeck over here at the Ringer. And I really enjoy his what I'm hearing newsletter that goes out on Sundays. It kind of has like an old school like news and notes, but also very like opinionated column element to it.

It's, you know, if you grew up reading like the Peter Gammon's is of the world, like Matt's style is very like knowing but like funny but opinionated. And if you just read the tea leaves of that column, which mainly is a small sample size, but I think you're going to agree with me, it does seem like the same tides that are affecting

all businesses in the world and especially technology-based businesses is really starting to let they're lapping up on the old TV shores right like the and the the water is not nice the water is full of debt you know and I was wondering whether or not

to the extent that you're able to talk about this you're feeling out there a sense that either the way TV gets made is going to change, what kind of TV gets made is changing, or whether or not it's really going to more be in the bottom line how much TV costs to make department. Obviously for people who listen to this podcast, they know,

but we've been living through an almost unfathomable time of volume. You know, the amount of scripted television is incomprehensible. That's all right now. I'd like to think sometimes of things as a pendulum, like, oh, maybe we'll go back to when there's a more manageable and managed amount of TV on or something,

and maybe some of these outlier streamers will go away. But more and more, I'm starting to see things more as a stock market graph. And I wonder whether or not these things have like a little bit more volatility than just like, was this too much TV? Is this the right amount of TV? What kind of TV are we making?

And when you read Matt's columns, you just see more and more that people are like, is this IP, is this, you know, part of IP that we own, that we can build out. Like, these are the questions that are,

and I'm wondering whether or not TV is gravitating towards where movies were about 10 years ago. Well, it's a big question. And I'll say at the top, you know, the business of television happening behind the scenes in terms of pitches, projects being bought,

projects being put in motion, you know, that's past 23. That's into 24-25. So in terms of a consumer perspective, there's going to be a lot of great TV next year and a lot of noisy, surprising things and a lot of quiet surprising things, too. So we'll be fine talking about stuff that we watch unless the Phillies are good again, in which case I won't watch it. But that aspect of it is fine. The question behind the question is, so anecdotally, from my own experience on my other job, And talking to people who are also doing that other job,

this is as bad or as close to as bad as it's ever been to be a creative or to be a writer in the business in terms of places not selling, not buying, in terms of when things are bought or sold, they are no longer, things aren't bought in the room. They're not bought off of a script. They're not bought off of a script in a package. They are bought off of, well, we like this actor and this director,

and we like your script, but could you maybe write two more scripts for us and also pitch us the entire series and then we'll think about it. So trying to get as much certainty as possible early, but also trying to get as much, not free labor, but cheaper labor as possible early. Just if I can interject,

isn't that also, it kind of works in tandem with the fact that there is now no secondary market or a home video market or, you know, the residuals have dried up in the industry too because things aren't being sold into syndication. They're not being sold in any kind of way that produces more value for their creators. And it's on both ends.

So to work in this industry is incredibly fortunate and very well paying. But the circumstance now with how long everything takes and the budget of everything and certainly the post-production budget on CGI things, where in the past you might be writing, producing, or even show running something, that was, let's say, 12 episodes and it would take you a year, you could be spending two years essentially on eight episodes. And if you are a junior level writer, you are spending one year trying to stitch together three or four jobs to make up for what you could have made if you had been working on a 22 episode season show. So, and then at the top end of the marketplace, in terms of the writers and creators, you're exactly right. Like the unicorn would have been

creating a show like, I don't know, like the office or something, right, where it is a massive hit, and then will be a massive hit in perpetuity, where you keep cranking out many episodes for many seasons, and then you sell it, and you sell it again, and you sell it again, syndication, streaming rights, et cetera. Now, a hit show on a broadcast network, once it airs on the broadcast network, likely it's on Hulu or streaming the next day. There is no secondary sale for anything anymore, which severely cuts down the potential earnings for anyone. We're potentially heading into some sort of, you know, there might be a recession or some global economic uncertainty, and we're also talking about an industry

that... I know. Continued volatility in the markets. I mean, I don't want to sink anything. You know what I mean? The Niki is open right now when we're recording. But maybe you can jinx it. People listen to it.

There's a recession. Everybody's at 401Ks will go back. Listen, I can pick winners. I did last week and so I'll do it again. There was a time when we would talk about the entrance of the tech company. like Netflix and Amazon as disrupting the state television or film or content marketplace. And one of the ways that they did that was not just their, you know, data-driven approach to everything,

but also just financially how a company like Amazon is built, which until relatively recently, was based on just showing growth to shareholders year over year, over year, not actually producing anything or producing profits, but suggesting the possibility of it. every company is that now. Every company is an over-leveraged global entity trying to prove growth to its shareholders. And that was a decision made by these companies

when they shifted to an all-streaming strategy. I can't say it's working or not working. That's more Matt Bellany or above's pay grade, but it definitely, we're in like year five of Comcast Universal being like, we're only going to lose this many billions this year. Yeah. Right. And that was our intent

in order to be stronger going forward? I don't know. all of this is shaking out in a marketplace where you can't, not everybody, as you said, not everybody's going to survive. So what you call Zazlav, Davy Sizerhands? That's right. Zazov is cutting Warner Brothers to the bone. Is it because he wants to make it as profitable as discovery was

and strip out excess fat? Is part of that quote unquote excess fat, HBO's commitment to just nurturing artists and spending big, for a lot of things only to make three things that are the best things. I can't speak to that. We don't know. There's still a ton of great stuff in HBO's pipeline, and I wouldn't bet against Casey Boyes and his team.

Yeah, also I think that there are a lot of rumors that he's doing it to sell the company, which would mean some more consolidation, which would mean fewer jobs, which might mean fewer shows. So it's just so much uncertainty, and that uncertainty trickles down. So there are many, many people, like, I mean, I can speak anecdotally, like, it's not anecdotally if it's about me. like meetings that I take and do in projects that I'm involved in feel as exciting as ever in terms of the interest from producers and executives to do something good, to do something cool, to do something big.

I mean, that doesn't change. There are a lot of creative, good-hearted people on all sides of this business. But when that gets further down the line as to what actually gets made, what checks get written for what and when, there's never been more uncertainty. And there is a writer's strike looming next year as well that might, you know, that is intended to speak to some of these disparities. but, you know, it could be bumpy for writers to be like, take care of us in this uncertain times.

Well, the suits are like, we can't because these are uncertain times. Yeah, because most of these streamers are, in fact, adding subscribers. I mean, Netflix lost some over the first part of 2022, I guess, but it has had a good quarter that then had them be like, we're back. But one thing you see with Paramount Plus, one thing you see with, I bet, with Warner Discovery, who are pushing up, I think, the release of the hybrid app or the hybrid streamer, like the Discovery Warner one, is that no matter what, like, their growth does not seem to

affect their stock price anymore. And at a certain point, like, you know, it's really bad timing that the WGA is probably going in for, but the writer strike is on the horizon or writer, you know, bargaining negotiation is on the horizon. Because a lot of these companies are probably going to turn out and be like, oh, well, our stock price is in the toilet. So, you know, it's like not really the time for us to talk about like restructuring the financials of all television writing, right? Yeah, because there's also, I mean, this is pretty inside baseball and granular, but there's tons of money in all of this.

There always has been. And the companies are making money and they're spending money. One thing that has been a disparity, for example, and again, this is the very, very top 1%. This is a 1% problem. So I'm not saying this is a sign that everything's broken, but it's just something interesting to think about, which is we talk about showrunners a lot, and we talk to showrunners a lot. Showrunner is a made-up position. It is not a union-recognized job with a specific pay structure. It's not a titled thing in the TV credits, right? It's not like it says show run by George Pelicanos or something.

No, there are a lot of executive producers, and then you read the tea leaves or you talk to people and you find out who was running the show or which people, which group of people were running a show. The thing I was saying before about a certain amount of money per episode being spread out over one year or two years can create a situation where on paper just going off of their contracts, which were negotiated fairly and openly, a junior writer could potentially make more money on a series than the showrunner. Because the junior writer works for a year, gets their money as they deserve, and then a junior writer. I mean, like a co-executive producer, a high-ranking writer, but not someone. and then moves on to their next project where the show owner stays through post-production for who knows how long and isn't getting necessarily paid for that.

So often that has gotten papered over quite literally with overall deals. The studio is like, we'll make you whole. We're going to pay you this large number that is not going to earn out because what we're actually doing is paying you to be exclusive to us and show run the show because you deserve X amount of money.

If the industry is like we're not really, especially a more tech-savvy algorithm-driven industry is like we're not really into vague backpadding contract deals. You know, like we're paying you sort of to do this because we owe you, which I have, I understand that. Anytime you leave it to vagaries, it does start to make less and less sense. So if they start saying, well, no, we don't want to do that, then it starts, that's not working anymore.

And it starts to stop working from the top and trickle down again. So there are some broken things here that should be addressed. I don't know if those will be addressed in any kind of labor negotiation. I think some of the labor negotiation will be about, I mean, this is getting, now we're so far inside baseball. We're probably going to start talking about baseball again, but span protection, which is to get to make you whole if you keep working longer than the amount of episodes that you made in a reasonable way. It gets into it, but this is a fraught moment. It's a fraught moment right now. Of course, it's also, what is it, November 7th, which means everybody shut down for Christmas.

Right. That's the thing. Everybody's done for the holidays. Right. And I'm sure that the news from now until thanks, you know, through Thanksgiving is not going to be any, it's going to be entirely about the elections. It'll be entirely about the stock market and the economy. It'll be entirely about what it's going to be about. I just, I was curious because these columns that Matt writes and then generally speaking, the conversations that I've had out there, including ones with you, just seems like there has been a perceptible tightening and a perceptible like, I don't know, you want to call it quantitative easing, but just like, a a little application of brake pedal just around like, hey, let's just like buy up a bunch of stuff, make sure somebody else doesn't have it,

want to be in business with you, let's get this all in development. And I don't think we're ever going to go back to the time of there's only ever nine shows on TV at any given time. And maybe this will be the beginning of the era of consolidation where one of these seemingly big streamers gets purchased by another.

And we do wind up with like three or four streamers and Apple makes 12, shows a year because they want to? Or I don't know, but I do wonder whether or not this is chapter one of that. I mean, I don't think, again, read Matt Bellany, read, read industry wags to be more accurate about this. But I don't think it takes, I don't think it takes someone, you know, you know, with shoe leather on the beat to say that Paramount Comcast slash Comcast Universal and Warner Brothers Discovery, it doesn't make sense for all three of them to be individual. individual independent entities.

It just doesn't seem to make sense. And people have been saying that for a while. I don't know how that shakes out. I don't know if it does shake out. But they're all doing various degrees of fine against companies to whom gravity is irrelevant. So all this isn't to be doom saying. There will be great shows next year.

They're great creatives. They're great ideas. There's great stuff coming. And that will continue to be the case. but there is some upheaval, and I guess the button on this conversation is we don't really know how that will play out on a consumer basis in terms of what you're paying, who you're paying it to, and what you're getting to watch for that. We don't know. And I'm not sure anybody does. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually

join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. Terms apply. The playoffs are here

and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch.

Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. so whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee,

it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses.

predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. We can shift into talking about White Lotus, which is one of those kind of very reliable, very traditional in some ways for his groundbreaking as it is in certain ways in terms of its anthology. formatting and like the sort of otorship of Mike White involved with it is one of those very reliable, traditional, pleasurable experiences that I think are essentially the backbone of

the podcast that we make where it's just like a good show is on Sunday and then we start on Monday and we talk about it. I have one question coming out of White Lotus and I think it's the obvious, obvious most important one. I'm sure all podcasts are leading with this. When Harper catches Ethan cranking it in the hotel room, do you just assume he's watching, uh, Eagles highlights. Oh, interesting. I thought he's watching Bryce home runs and Schwar bombs. That was my, maybe that's recency bias.

I think he's watching all 22 film. I mean, if so, it's a reasonable reaction. I think it's fine. And I appreciate it also, his candor, where he's like, my dear, Jalen Hertz has really evolved this season to a degree that merits self-plendent. I agree with that. I'm really glad that we are talking about White Lotus season two, episode two, on the back half of that conversation we just had. Because I loved this episode.

And I loved it both because I thought everything that you just said, it was consistent. It was entertaining. It was just a pleasurable watch at the end of a weekend at the beginning of a week. At the end of a long run, yeah. But I didn't do a very long run yesterday. But more than that, I was just thinking during the first 15, 20 minutes, I was like, you know Mike White really likes television? And he's really good at it.

And he's really good at it in a way that almost no one else is. I mean, it's pretty unique that he alone can just juggle so many extremely distinct personalities, characters, voices in his head and put them. into an architect them, if you will, into these hyper-specific moments of stakes-see conflict, that's unprecedented. You know, maybe, I mean, not since, but in some ways, not unprecedented. The precedent in an earlier era would have been David E. Kelly writing every episode of every drama of the 90s, you know, and just being like, I know all these people, I know their

voices, and I know what the most interesting conversation for them to have right now is, and don't bother me with it. I'll have it to you on your desk for table to read by Monday. So this is not TV in the traditional sense because of the before-mentioned cranking it's seen, which I think would have been a very special episode of the Hogan family, if anything. I think that it's, but it is so deeply TV and it's just a bunch of people in a situation talking.

And it's at such an elite level, but I really took comfort in that this week. I really just, I really enjoyed it. He's got, he's got an invisible paintbrush that's pretty, pretty, significant. I think you've got to reckon with it. The way in which all of a sudden you realize you're like, all right, everybody's in this restaurant.

You know, like he does these sort of like unshoey set pieces where you realize that this entire cast that you mentioned. And I've been finding this season of White Lotus is a really interesting litmus test. Not that there's a right or wrong answer, but it's maybe not a litmus. So it's like more of a Rorschach test where I find that people are seeing different things in this season.

I was going to kind of broadly wanted to ask you about whether or not you feel like White Lotus as a social satire or a social commentary was something that this show got tagged with and couldn't shake and so since has sort of been kind of reckoning with that throughout

because to me this season is about, you know, love and loneliness and yes, it's about upstairs downstairs stuff and it's about secrecy and there's all sorts of things that are happening in it. But it really is a character study. And I think that the first season,

especially with the way that the Jake Lacey and Connie Britton characters were dialed, and the way in which the Sydney Sweeney character was dialed, that it was like a little bit more, maybe not farcical, but satirical. This season is much more, I think much more played straight. And perhaps that's just literally down to the performers doing the roles and that in different hands, if Jake Lacey had been playing the Theo James part this season,

perhaps he would have played it bigger. I don't know. But I'm kind of curious about what this show is now. I think that's a great observation and a great question to ask. The first season definitely seemed to, like, in lesser hands, you could be like it has an agenda, which is a meaningless term. But in terms of what I, the reason I use that word is because I think that Mike White very

specifically was like, I'm going to take situations with obvious, evident fault lines and just apply pressure over the course of a season until the fault lines inevitably break apart. And so, and often that was to do not just with class in the first season, but with race as well. There was the, you know, the theft and robbery and the schism between the Sydney-Sweeney character and her friend. And most broadly, with Natasha Rothwell's character and her relationship with Jennifer Koolidge's character, Tanya. This season, I agree with you.

I mean, there's a lot of road to go, and it's already surprisingly deep after just, you know, I could say two hours, but I was locked more in on these characters than I expected to be after like an hour of 15 into this one. It does seem to be more about loneliness and kind of emotional despair

and fault lines than about societal ones. And I'm not mad about that. I think that, you know, first of all, it proves that the show really is driven by his interest at any given time. But there's just some small things early that I really appreciate. And one is the fact that, and I don't want to get their names wrong, you mentioned Theo James. It's Cameron and his wife is Daffy.

Daffy, right? Right. And Megan Fahey. He's just awesome. They're great, right? Like, I mean, I know that they are also pitched at a level and their wealth and their ignorance about the midterms or what have you, is unfortunate, if not, it's not villainous, but the perspective brought to them where they are broad and loud and unselfaware and dopey, but at least through these episodes,

deeply in love with each other and committed to each other and also having a good time, is an important distinction. You know, they are not cartoons. They are not buffoons. I mean, that jacket at dinner was borderline. But do you know what I mean? Like, these are the smaller things. And I think in a. broader, to use your word, satire, they just would have been punching bags from the start. And I like that it's, you know, we got a sense of that early and we sort of expected that. And then the dial has changed slightly. And so, you know, the Harper and what's his name, Ethan, is it Ethan?

Ethan, yeah. You know, who are also now extremely rich. So it's hard to say anyone is a POV character. But as the newly rich, maybe our allegiances might go to them. instead what I find myself feeling for them is empathy and a little sadness because of the emotional state of their relationship. Do you know what I mean? And I like that. I like the way that distinction has been drawn.

Yeah. I mean, I think that those two couples are the thing that has jumped out at me the most. I find the imperialist stuff compelling and interesting. And I find the Lucia and Mia stuff interesting and compelling. But like the Harper, Ethan, Daphne-Camron stuff is like obviously the most. electric part of this show. And we've talked before about like the Jennifer Coolidge stuff is the Jennifer Coolidge stuff. And it really is your mileage may vary on like how hysterical you find her. I find her like very pleasant but like not exactly like it's

it's not quite at my frequency sometimes. Um, you know, with the Harper and Ethan and Cameron and Daphne stuff, there's also this whole element of, I don't know whether you call it like self-actualization or just self-actualization or just self- awareness, but it's like, is it better to be Cameron and Daphne and just be so kind of comfortable with who you are? Even if you are, like, sometimes I have, I see red and have like these blowups on the phone about like my lost luggage or whatever. Or, you know, sometimes we play intertraditional gender rules or sometimes we could be

accused of not really knowing a whole lot about current events. Or have Harper and Ethan, who obviously do not have very. electric sex life, do not have a very passionate life with one another, and are kind of like almost hemmed in by their self-consciousness, you know? And I like the juxtaposition between those two characters, or those two couples, really, is really the best thing about this season to me. I think a lot of the problems derive from the fact that Ethan's showers are way too short. Now, I know that's controversial in Los Angeles, but it is raining today so I could at least make this case with a little bit of a lighter conscience.

I mean, first of all, it's a nice shower. There's probably great products that is not a 30-second continue-a-conversation type of shower at least he didn't soap and condition. You know what I'm saying? So I feel like that's where a lot of the problems come from. I think that what's intriguing to me about those couples and about the season writ large is that actually the show White Lotus is backdooring its way into the most annoying question of the prestige TV era, which is the,

Am I a good person? Sure. But it's doing it in a way that comes from character first, not extreme situation, although there are bodies still to come. Also, it's nice that none of the characters are asking that question. No, the characters are asking that? It's like the God's Eye view of Mike White and by proxy us being like, are these good people?

But also, so what makes a good person a good person? Is it, I mean, I think fundamentally it's, is that, are they hurting anyone? Are you hurting someone? Are you hurting those around you? Are you hurting those, are you hurting people indirectly? Are you an astrofen? I mean, then you're hurting the world. But like Daphne gives a lot of money when she's a little bit wine drunk to sick children and sad pets.

So I don't think she's hurting people. She might even be helping them. And what value is it to have the level of judgment that Harper has? You know, what does that contribute to either your happiness or to the larger project of the world unclear? And there's echoes then of that kind of what do we owe each other, what do we owe ourselves in the Portia and Al B. scenes, which were really, really good this week. Haley-L Richardson's sort of pre-first glass of Pino-Greege monologue, you know, about how she just wants to be, step outside of the discourse. Right.

Amen. I also feel that way often for the first glass of crisp, you know, acidic white that really speaks to the place, you know, the terroar of wherever I happen to be. I love the way And this is just me admiring the writing You know, like Those characters And we don't know where the season's going And we don't know how the stories might domino into each other

But going into it, those weren't the characters Where I was like, this will be a generator of sparks for the season. I didn't, you know, I didn't foresee that in the first week But he sits them down at a table, the same restaurant with Greg and Tanya are And their conversation is so economical and efficient and revealing of not just each character's character, but how they interact with each other and thus the world.

You know, where he's just like, I guess I'm drawn to wounded birds and she just gulps down more wine, you know, or even when they part for the night, when he asks if he can kiss her, and her whole response, she plays that great, he's really good too. I should Adam DeMarcoe's name of the actor, but I actually had to rewatch that scene when they part in front of her hotel room, where he's like, can I kiss you? She's like, okay. And he says, I guess I'll see you tomorrow.

We should hang out again. She's like, we'll hang out again. Like she's completely removed from any version of performing reality as she has known it. Sure. In a way that is really interesting and disarming. And, you know, he's just, this is the same thing. And I apologize for the repetition, if not boredom of this. But this is kind of the same arc I went on with the show last year where at first I'd break out a little

bit itchy. I get a little Mike White eczema about the way these people speak and the way they treat each other. And then I start relaxing, not just because of the cortisol cream that I'm covered and thank God this is an audio medium, but because I'm like, this guy is really interested in people. He's really empathetically interested in people and he observes them. And then he can communicate that to us. It's impressive. We talked about this a little bit when the first episode was coming out or maybe even as a preview to the first episode where I was saying, I think that we would probably have to get a little bit of IP cult deprogramming

going into this episode. Yeah. Going into this season because so much stuff that we watch is so stakes-based and is so three-dimensional chess about what's going to happen five years from now. Yeah. Or how does this thing change everything we thought about this property? And then a lot of the other.

stuff that we watch. Sometimes it's the same IP stuff. Sometimes it's just the like essentially prestige crime shit that we're addicted to is solving it, solving the show. And while Mike White makes these kind of gestures towards who done it's or who's in the what's in the box kind of stuff with these body bags in the beginning of the, of both seasons, a coffin in the first one and the and body bags in the second, you know, I can't say that I spend more than two seconds per episode thinking about the dead bodies, you know, and wouldn't be surprised if that was a kind of massive red herring this season. It's hardly, it's hardly like Agatha Christie out there. It's really just, it's in the background. But so you go into it and then you're like, okay, so now I'm not really

watching this for, I'm not at the detective trying to solve this show. I'm really going back to being a human being watching other human beings on screen and thinking about what like, like, is about. And let me one up that even further. Like speaking about Mike White as just a fan of television, you know what felt great after watching this episode? There was not a single bone in my body that was like, I can't wait to find out what happens next week in a contemporary sense. There wasn't a cliffhanger. No. I guess they're going to go, you know, I guess Bert was going to walk on his, with his cane a little further into Sicily and talk more about Haiti's raping goddesses. Like, okay, can't wait. Right. Boy, I guess Portia and

Tonya are going to be back together. Presumably Michael Imperially's credit card has a limit. One would think, although he is quite rich, apparently. You know, that's great. It's a really good feeling. And I think that that's something that was familiar last year, too. I think that because he realizes the show he's making and the climate he's making it in, there will be more of that feeling like at the end of last season or near the end of last season when Greg, Tanya's now unhappy husband started coughing, right? Like that, I'll keep referencing that because there will be some play or reminder. The only note that, I had coming out of this episode really were two things. I want to get your thoughts on them.

One, this is an expensive hotel. This is a White Lotus property, right? And I believe it was built out of a convent, right? So an old, old bones in the building. Walls seem pretty thin. Walls seem pretty thin for a five-star stone convent. Well, I don't know that there was a lot of expectation that there would be so much like pornography viewing and, and, and everything going on in a convent. I mean, it's not built. Great call on the lack of humping. You know, as a Jew, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but I imagine you're probably right on that. The only other thing, and this is always the nature of the show, and this is just you've got to either agree to go on the ride or step off of it. But there are those moments, and they're usually in the Tanya stuff where you're just like, this is broad in a way that the previous scene with its incisive emotional surgery didn't imply or didn't suggest.

And for me, it was just, and it was funny, but Valentina was the manager of the hotel, the scene where she's just like really giving Imperiali the hard time about where the young ladies are going to be sleeping. Like, I just feel like she probably wouldn't do that. That doesn't help. It's funnier that she does, but she is broad at this time in a way that others are not. And I still bump on that occasionally. Listen, there's no worse criticism of a show than being like, I don't think she'd do that. bullshit. She's a made-up character. She did it.

So I retract that from the record. Right. And I think she's probably also more reacting to what those girls represent to her, which is also in the first season of White Lotus is this illusion that this place is in this place, but not of this place.

Yes, that's a good point. The entire plot line in the first season with the guy stealing the jewelry and like why, you know, and what's going to happen and wanting to leave the hotel and the hotel making them do, or not making them, but like, staging these like traditional dances and stuff. And I think in this, in some ways, it's like they're trying to imagine a world where

like there aren't women trying to seduce Michael Imperially from the outside. It's also a great point to make when you're thinking about how this show functions. I mean, literally physically is made, is produced as we emerge from the COVID era in which it was conceived and shot for the first season. was conceived and shot into what it will be going forward. So, for example, we left the property. We left the property. Other than the airport shots, did we ever leave the property in season one?

I don't think they could, due to the lockdowns and the situation, the permission structure they got in Hawaii when they were shooting. There are crowd scenes in this episode. They go to the Coliseum and look out over the ocean. You know, they're walking in town. So it was interesting to note. I mean, it all looks beautiful. It's beautifully shot.

It adds to the story. but it does change this idea that these characters are absolutely bubbled off from the world. Now, they're still thousands of miles away from their home, but I wonder how that will play going forward as it becomes an option for them. Well, we can wrap up the White Lotus stuff there. Do you mind if I end this episode on a slightly down note, which I didn't want to open the episode with? Yeah.

I just wanted to say how sad I was about the passing of Mimi Parker over the weekend. So for people who don't know, Mimi Parker is one of the central members of the band Lowe. You know, maybe if you've never heard Lowe's music, but you listen to this podcast and you watch a lot of TV, you may have heard congregation play in devs, you know, back when it was on. I mean, Lowe's music is fairly well represented in soundtracks and stuff like that. But this is a band that I started listening to right out of high school pretty much. and so essentially have been listening to Lowe for as long as I've been kind of a serious music fan and, you know, essentially, as long as I've known you,

I think that their first record came out maybe in 96 or 97. I mean, there was seven inches around even when we were high school. I could live in Hope was the first one, right? That was early. Yeah, or Curtin has the castes, you know, right around there too. So the thing about Lowe is that they had this... 94, yeah.

Yeah, this absolutely unforgettable unique sound, which is essentially this ethereal, spectral, slow, gorgeous processional music. And yet they never made the same record twice and were constantly evolving and were arguably making some of their best music over the last four or five years. A lot of people found a lot of solace

in the Instagram live concerts that they did over the course of the worst days of the pandemic. And Andy and I got a chance to actually witness something that I'll never forget when we were working at Spin's website. And they came in, Lowe came in, and played. We was essentially just like our dumb version of NPR Tiny Desk that we were doing on cameras that took 15 days to upload video to an internet and nobody could see it.

But we had bands come in during a CMJ festival one year. And Lowe came in and didn't they play Surfer Girl? What was the beach song that they played? They did. On the couch. We just had people play on the couch. We had no mics. It was just right to camera acoustic.

Yeah. And Mimi passed away over the weekend. She was 55. She died from ovarian cancer. My absolute deepest condolences go out to her family and to all of her friends. And honestly, just kind of just like a breath, like a real gut punch loss. Yeah, I was pretty stunned by it too. I just think that low, I mean, the bassist Zach Sallie is an amazing contributor, a musician in his own right.

but the band is Mimi Parker and her husband, Alan Sparhawk. That's the band. And their voices in harmony, at all tempos, with all different kinds of instrumentation, is the connective thread. And as someone who always appreciated and respected their music, something cracked open for me in their last two records, where they started working with producer BJ Burton, who's worked with Bonie Verre, right? And he's worked on pop records. Yeah. And totally surprising pairing on Pays-Denberg. paper, but produce these records, and particularly I was a fan of what I guess will now be their

final record, hey what, which came out last year. Yeah. Which sounds like absolutely nothing else that I've ever heard, but it sounds like Lowe. And the project increasingly became about people who had pledged their life to each other, right? I mean, they were, I don't know if they were high school sweethearts or shortly thereafter and made a life with each other. And the songs reflected a kind of love that is deeply fought for and earned. and sometimes even ambiguous, you know,

or sometimes a little skeptical. Their voices were just titanic together. And I was stunned too, both because of, you know, maybe the way it reflects back on either of us to have people who are not our contemporaries because they were a decade older than us, but people who are part of our formative years succumbing to illness,

you know, succumbing to life. Yeah. But also particularly just the nature of her presence and power and artistry in relationship to that band and the family that was the band. It's a tough one. It's a tough one to conceive of. An immense musician.

And, you know, like Lowe's music will live on for a very long time. But I just wanted to say, like, to rest in peace to Mimi Parker. Sorry to end on such a dour note. I just didn't want to, you know, start the podcast.

No, I'm glad you did. Wednesday, we have Tony Gilroy. We're talking to Andor. Thank you so much for listening today. Thank you, Kai McMullen, for producing. And we'll wrap it up there.