The Watch - ‘Atlanta’ Showed Us What Is Possible With TV. Plus, ‘The White Lotus’ S2E3

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Disney will be airing the first two episodes of ‘Andor’ on ABC and what this move could mean for Disney+ (1:00). Then they talk about the finale of ‘Atlanta’ and how over the years the series has showed audiences how to watch it (14:32). Then they talk about the latest episode of ‘The White Lotus’ (37:11). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The time has come to get ready for the 2022 World Cup. And what better way to prepare than by revisiting the World Cup's most amazing goals? I'm Brian Phillips. I'm making a podcast about the history of the men's World Cup, told through the stories of 22 iconic goals. The show's called 22 Goals. It's out now on the Ringer Podcast Network, and we're having so much fun. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan, and I am an editor at the ringer.com

and joining me on the other line waiting for a sign from Thick Judge Judy to let him know it was all the dream. It's Andy Greenwald. Thick Judge Judy was predicting a red wave. We'll talk all about that. Wait, Andy, it's very hard to hear you right now because I'm at the Governor John Dutton Victory Party.

Where is everybody? I just wish I was like the, the Olivia Nuzzie of John Dutton. You know, although journalists don't fare very well on Yellowstone. You don't really know much about Yellowstone. Yellowstone came back last night for two episodes, and it's just a wild rat. Kevin Costner is the governor now.

So wait, is he the governor, or is he still waiting for Maricopa County? Do you know what I mean? Like, does he feel like things are looking good? I'm having, it's both a bit, and I'm legitimately confused as to what's real and what's made up these days. There's nothing, you shouldn't feel ashamed of that. I mean, also, I think you've been turned upside down ever since

ever since that FTX news hit, because I know that that's where you were bundling a lot of your political donations were in... Can I be honest with you? Like, I know... Look, I know this is a tough time for our crypto bros and listeners. And as I said, I think of this podcast a year ago,

I'm fairly certain I'm equipped to talk about this topic because I think crypto is money, question mark, I think. But I've realized that there's one thing that I've been doing wrong, and I mean this sincerely. I know we have a lot to get into. We're going to talk about White Lotus, the Atlanta finale, et cetera.

But like, I just realized that all, I mean, I'm serious, all of my tokens are fungible. You would have been amazing. I've misjudged. If we were still in that early 2000s mixtape era and like two chains

had a mixtape called Sam Bankhead Freed, what makes you think he won't? We can always dream. Hey, Eddie, we're going to talk about the series finale of Atlanta today. We're also going to talk about the latest episode of White Lotus. But I wanted to get to some very interesting terrestrial television news first. Wait, it just made me think these events of the last week with the great, I mean, I was going to say website and application, but really like public trust of Twitter and also all this crypto stuff. The last few years, we've been saying, oh, politics are so crazy.

like, is this making life harder for Armando Yanucci and the people, you know, the guys who made Veep and that whole world? Like, is their job just impossible now? Right. And I would like to ask our buddies Conrad and Mickey over at industry, like, finance is so dumb. You know what I mean? This seems like... This is also dumb. I wonder whether this, this crypto thing graduates, the FTCS that graduates above a Rishi throwaway line and becomes like an actual, like, Harper gets tied up with a crypto guy who tries to change the world and also doesn't have any actual money and keeps moving between Hong Kong and the Bahamas. But I mean, also this whole thing, not to get dystopic, although, you know, we kind of already are. But like, remember in 2016 when we're like,

oh, well, there are guardrails to democracy. You know what I mean? And like, L-O-L. And then, then, for example, you were like, people are like, well, Elon Musk seems like a clown. But surely he must have some business acumen to have become the richest man in the world. And then you read the transcripts of his all hands meetings where he's like, be sick. Be sick, bros. I'm often telling you that you need to be more hardcore. Yeah, no, you are telling me, and that's fine for the group chat during the World Series. I'm just saying when you are in charge of a company.

So anyway, I think industry at its best, which is just another way to say industry, actually is very keenly observant about the role that machismo and bluster and bullshit plays and all this. So I don't think that they need to pivot their show. But it is kind of interesting. Just kind of the sort of conservative, safe thinking that I'll say I carry sometimes and that other people likely do too, which is, well, I'm sure it's okay, just to get us through the day. Like, I'm sure they know what they're doing. Maybe they don't. Maybe they don't. Speaking of industry, lower case I, can we do a quick news item before we get to the Atlanta season series finale and the latest

episode of White Lotus. So I wanted to mention the fact that my guy Bob Chapeck taking a lot of hits this week. You know? Yeah. Sounds like there's going to be have to be some cuts and the mouse. And I saw Jim Kramer, no less an expert on streaming TV than Jim Kramer, demand

Bob Chepec's job on CNBC or wherever he does that kind of thing. But they are making some interesting moves out of Orlando, out of out of Burbank. And they're putting the first two episodes.

I wanted to be out of Orlando. Yeah. Just like, here in Kasumi-St. Cloud, we see the entire chessboard. They're going to put the first two episodes of Andor on ABC. They're also going to put them on Hulu.

They're going to put them on free form. They are doing kind of a, not unlike what ESPN does now with a lot of their major sporting events where you can watch the main feed. You can watch these alternate feeds. Like they're really pressing their,

advantage by having ESPN ESPN 2 and an ABC with some of the bowl games, some of the Manning cast stuff. They're not doing anything like that. I would love to be part of the Andor cast if they ever decide to. I think that's basically what we provide on Thursday. But they are going to be on December 2nd at 9 p.m. They're going to air the first two episodes of Andor on ABC, which will obviously be an interesting test to see whether or not you can reel in a fish from the big seas of terrestrial TV. it's kind of a random night for America to be home watching watching ABC I guess like this is kind of an interesting gambit I'll be curious to know whether or not it runs with or without commercial interruption there's also I would describe

and or is on the edge of what you would do on network television although I guess this is from the the network that gave us NYPD Blue so that they may have the stomach for it but what do you make of this whole thing once you put Dennis Franz's bare ass on primetime all bets are off This is one of those logical decisions that is so logical that it actually calls into question everything behind it. So what I mean is all of these companies that are so oversized and swollen with brands and channels and streamers, consolidation makes a lot of sense. Siloing everything off really doesn't.

And we've seen this recently. I don't even think we commented on this. But Showtime as a streaming service is being folded into Paramount Plus, which is bad if you are a longtime showtime brand guy if you got a mug back in the Gary Shandling days. But that just makes sense. Like it's all part of the same corporate umbrella. There's overlap. It's another feather in your content cap. Why would you keep it separate?

So these things kind of make sense. And from a personal anecdotal level, when my show was going out on USA, it was a USA show. when I spoke to people who I'm still working with at the studio, they said, you know, it's funny. A year, I was like, I don't, I'm going to stop you there. I don't think the story's going to be that funny. But I appreciate the attempt at levity. They were like, you know, a year later, had you made this show,

it would be for Peacock, and we would have premiered it on NBC. Now, I'm not saying that would have saved my bacon or anything like that, but that was the difference between a streaming service, that was set up in an era when everything was intended to be competitive. Like these corporate parents were acting like Logan Roy, like we're going to give everyone the fiefdom and they're going to fight. And that sometimes led to bizarrely good, depending which side of the ledger you're on decisions,

like Yellowstone being on peacock and not being on Paramount. We always point to that as like, that'll never happen again. These sorts of decisions, like we can just put our product on different windows. That's also a contemporary type of decision making. But I'm sorry for the monologue, but I find this really interesting because you and I obviously we love Andor. We think that it deserves a broader audience. People probably ask you this all the time, just in random in your life,

like, oh, what should I be watching? And I was like, I know this sounds weird, but you should be watching the Star Wars show for grownups. Like that is what I'm leading with now. So I think it should be in as many different venues as possible. But what this points out is that the Disney Plus silo is incredibly, incredibly targeted and successful in a way a lot of these other streamers aren't.

All Daddington and Mommingtons have to have it. And if you are interested in certain types of content, you have to have it because you cannot get that anywhere else. So that's pushing the service to really, really impressive subscriber totals. And it's a big number was just announced this week. But there are limits to this. And or can't really thrive in this ecosystem or be taken that as seriously as it ought to be

because Disney Blues is a, essentially it's a it's a it's a kid service right it is i mean or you know it's a niche service in terms of their you know i think that if i were i not professionally obligated to be a part of the conversation around all the mc u and all of star wars i don't know if i personally would get disney plus you know like the utility of it is very like i get way more use out of shutter which probably speaks to why i don't have children but I would I get more use. You did get a guided tour of Disney by my five-year-old the other week when you were

baby-sitting. I was like, I am good for the next decade. You know, like, wait, we went inside Riley and now we're outside with her on a date? Like, there's more to this? You were pretty fired up. But yes, your point stands. Here's my glass half full interpretation of this. They know they have a really good show.

And they want as many people as possible to see it. I think it's interesting that they did not do. this with say, what if they had turned the finale of season two of Mandalorian into an event like this, which we all kind of, without spoiling what happens at that, like, that would have been a major, major thing to see on television. The fact that it's the first two episodes of Andor, I think is like obviously a, hey, like, this is the kind of content that we have in Disney Plus. If you want to see it on ABC, Freeform or Hulu, obviously it makes a lot of sense for FX as a show, you know, on that, like the FX on Hulu kind of brand.

I guess my only sort of concern is that you're going to watch the first two episodes of this and kind of not know where you are. You know, I wouldn't say that the two first episodes are the ones where you're like, bought and sold. The first one, yeah. The first three, for sure. The first two, I guess it's just like a very special hour and 20 minute long presentation or whatever it's going to be of Andor.

One thing that's interesting, definitely to the Gilroy household, is if any of this was accounted for in the dealmaking or in contemporary dealmaking. Once something goes on linear or broadcast, there's extra payments that could kick in. And residuals, which are the issue that are leading to the potential writers action next year because residuals don't really exist anymore on streaming. So that is an interesting point. And that may be why they've limited it to two instead of four for cost saving. I think the other half-glasses have full analysis of this is you were very smart to bring up the Mandalorian finale, which is to say the Mandalorian, Baby Yoda, all of that was crucial to the success of Disney Plus. And or this might be an admission that and or they know how good it is, but it might not be finding its audience or its traction within the place that it lives.

And so they're trying to expand it, which is good for the show, but also an admission that this isn't necessarily a driver of subscribers. But I do think we've just ended up in this very strange place, at least in this country, because I know that overseas Star is one of the windows or one of the hubs on Disney. And that's basically Hulu and FX stuff goes there. So there is racier content than Falcon and the Winter Soldier available to, in the same way they serve beer at McDonald's in France. You know what I mean? Like they just trust the rest of the world a little bit more than us. But we're in this place now. We're just to take Disney as a corporation.

all of the hubs that are on Disney pluse service are Disney, obviously. There's Walt Disney movies. There's Pixar. There's Star Wars. There's Marvel. There's Nat Geo. But Disney also owns, to your point, FX. Disney also owns Hulu.

Disney also owns ESPN. And the further we get into this world where there are just a lot of things that they own separated out and siloed because of pre-existing subscription deals or arrangements or a perception of what the audience wants. It's like, guys, we've spent 10 years iterating and disrupting television when, like, maybe people just want television. Like, maybe I just want to be able to watch a Marvel movie and Monday Night Football without toggling, you know?

And I know this doesn't make sense necessarily from a subscriber-focused brand-building can see, which is what I said at the beginning, which is what makes Disney Blues so, so... killer, right? Because it is just, it's this or it's nothing for this stuff. But you have a lot more than nothing. And it's starting to feel a little strange. It's going to feel strange when we wake up next week or wake up next year and Atlanta stopped back. And I just wanted to like let, I thought maybe we could do Atlanta series finale first. I think, uh, don't think I was like psychologically or intellectually prepared for like, that's the ending. Now, I don't mean that it wasn't a successful

series finale because I think it was in a lot of ways one of my favorite series finales that I've ever seen. But I kind of, I had a lot of didn't know how you good, you had it feelings. In no way do I regret having a lot of confusion over season three, which we've kind of talked about ad nauseum. But it made me feel like melancholy that it was ending, very happy for the people going on to huge things in their careers, the people who were involved in the show. And I think really took like most of the weekend kind of thinking about what this show is about, you know, and what this show meant to me. I think that I wanted to start here. It's so fascinating. When we first started talking about Atlanta when it came out in 2016,

right? And it was just like, boy, this is like a screaming across the sky moment. Like this is changing our relationship to television and television and what we think can be a 30-minute show or whatever. Does the world, not the world, the real world, like the Elon Musk, FtX, red wave world, but the world of television that Atlanta ends in feels smaller than the one it started? Like, does it feel like the Big Bang, which is the name of the first episode of Atlanta, wasn't that big? It's a great question. And I want to start by saying, this is one of my favorite series finale I've ever seen, I think. It, absolutely knocked me flat and made me, I was smiling the entire time because of its audacity,

because of its lack of sentimentality, because of it's just artistic, let's fucking go-ness, just the jokes in it. It's willingness to be an episode of Atlanta. That's what I wrote down. It's like, this is just an episode of Atlanta. Do you remember this is a weird, very specific, very recency bias kind of comparison? But do you remember when, by the, remember when the Phillies were in the World Series? That was cool. I really enjoyed that.

Do you remember when before the Astros just clubbed us to death, like in the series ahead of that, there would be tense moments and we'd be like expecting the worst and we'd be tight as Philadelphia sports fans? And people like Sir Anthony Dominguez, like the greatest named reliever who we currently have would come in and just throw 100 miles per hour. Yeah. Like with people screaming and he's just like, well, what I do is I throw 100 miles an hour and why would I not do that now?

And that was what I felt in the opening moments of this finale when Earn is dragging Alfred for his shirt and singing old McDonald. And they just kind of sing and then make fun of each other. And I'm like, that's them throwing 100 miles per hour. There's no tightness. There's no, all eyes are on us because this is the finale. We're just going to be these people in this world and we're going to take what's in front of us. And like, this is the context. These are the jokes.

And then we're going to be done. And I just really admired the hell out of that. But, okay, but to your point, I don't think Atlanta ever got smaller, which isn't what you were saying, but I think the reverse is true. I think TV got wider and broader, and that has neutered a lot of things and their ability to be big bangs in our lives or culturally. And this is something we come back to again and again, but I do think that in terms of the impact, week to week. There's no question that Atlanta was diminished by its long delays, by some of its more out-there creative choices.

There's no question. It was also diminished, though, because when it started, it was like, wow, this is a big hit show for the FX television network on cable. And now it's like, hey, that's something that's on Hulu this week. That's different. Do you think it was changed at all by like it started out with this breathtaking ensemble of new faces with the exception of Donald Glover who had been in community? and then by the end of it, it's like,

oh, it's the lady from Deadpool and the guy from the Eternals. Like, that's not how I think of the cast, but I wonder whether or not, like, the actors from this show being subsumed by, like, larger popular culture. Yeah. Also impact whether or not you're seeing them as Van and Paperboy and Earn and Darius. I think we have a lot of straw men that we like to go back to on this podcast,

but the idea of someone being like, it's my guy from the Eternals. That's me. I want to do a focus group. Do you know, I often... I vote for Governor John Dutton, and I love the Eternals. My five-year-old, who is your good friend, loves... The only thing she really loves in this world other than her mother is Target. Uh-huh.

And no free ads, but, like, she loves Target so much that on the way... Dream big, man. On the way to the toy section, we'll pass, like, the Wicker aisle where they have chairs. And she'll be like, this is nice. That's nice. like she's just so happy there and every time we go she does

the eye she basically takes the same rhythm that we used to do in record stores where you start at one end at the A's and you just slowly work your way through everything and that's your afternoon she does that in the toy section but I stop usually like three rows in because there's one

there's one Lego set that's the Eternal's battle Lego set and I'm like how sad are the children that are like this is what you got me to target. It's so funny to me that someone at Lego Central was just like, well, the boys of Marvel have called, there's a hot new movie with people we've never heard of fighting space dogs.

Let's go. Oh, the director of Nomad Land? Oh, yeah, let's put this into production. Let's rush it. I used to have the same relationship your daughter has to Target. I used to have with IKEA. And I used to just be like wandering around and being like, and one day this will be what my office looks like.

and then inevitably inevitably because IKEA for whatever reason the sort of exit signage is like way up in the corner and you're just so because they don't want you to know

how to get out they want you to walk around the galleries over and over again until you're finally like yes I will buy the flugel you know I need this have you ever just lay down and taking a nap

just because you've definitely seen people in Philadelphia take some naps in IKEA but yeah Anyway, the digression. I guess all I wanted to say about, I'm not sure if it's cultural because the thing about this show, and it's honestly, one of the strongest arguments for the show as such a great work of television is that even though you never know what the show is going to be week to week, and that continued up to the very end,

you knew who these four people were just down to the bones. Now, sometimes they weren't in the episodes, which was also bold and a little disruptive. but no, I just think, I think of them as these people, even though they are performing, you know, roles. They are not necessarily these people and they will be other things. For me, something that was helpful was that when I watched this finale on Hulu and the episode ended, you know, it always suggests something else, and it suggested reservation dogs. Now, they're on the same network, so there is some connective tissue there, the same executive team, et cetera, et cetera. But Atlanta gave us reservation dogs. and not just because of the executive team feeling like they could do that.

But like the thing that we, and you mentioned this when we were setting up, you know, the final episodes the other week, like that moment of Atlanta and Fleabag and being like, oh, I'm sorry. Wait, TV can do this. I mean, those are like two Velvet Underground. Velvets Underground? I don't know what to say. But like, yeah. There's been a lot of bad, mediocre to bad to mediocre television in the wake of Atlanta and in the wake of, you know, just the changes. both culturally and in the media in the years since 2016, 2017.

But the idea that a show, that space on one of these major network services owned by Disney can be handed over to the Donald Glovers of the world and the hero Marais of the world, or the Taiga Waititi's of the world, or Sterling Hard Joe, and be like, you show us, show us something. I know, you know, I may destroy you. Like, the shows that we keep coming back to and using his touchpoints, like, that is so powerful and radical and changed our relationship to the medium and changed the ceiling of the medium.

And that was, I just felt that in the swagger of that the purple Maserati scene, you know, at the end of this episode. Like, yeah, that's what they did for four seasons. They stole the car from the valet and they did donuts in the parking lot with it, you know? And that's, even if they,

that's all they did, that would be, that's to be celebrated. It is not all that they did. I guess the reason why I was asking, this question is because I was thinking about the speech that the sushi owner, is that DeMarcus? Like I would think that he's giving in the middle of the of the black owned sushi restaurant and talking about like the night queen slim premiered. And everybody was hopped up on national.

And then to me, you know, like this show is about a lot of different stuff. Obviously it's about the black experience and the perception of the black experience and how it feels to be perceived in some ways. I think also that this show is very much about the struggle to make something and then the struggle to have that thing understood. So there's a lot of episodes, some of my favorite episodes of Atlanta are about, you know, whether it's a surrogate for the Glover Brothers or Stephanie Robinson or hero

or anybody who's like on the creative side of that show or whether it's literally just a kind of character work document of what it's like to put something out into the world and try to make that thing you're living and then be confronted with people misunderstanding it, people trying to glom onto it, people trying to make money off of it, people trying to tell you you can't make this much money off of it,

whatever it is. I think that that was the thing that I always thought about and so that Jeremiah that the guy gives in the middle of the sushi restaurant can really be read as a very thinly veiled exit statement from the Glover Brothers, right? It is because people kind of want the saltier, tastier thing. And part of the magic and the complexity of this episode and the show is that they're like, that tastes really good.

Popeyes is good. Like, is it good for the world? I'm not going to comment on that. This episode of The Watch brought to you by Popeyes. But it's undeniably popular, you know, and definitely has a lot of it. a broader appeal than potentially poisonous Georgian blowfish cheeks. I like you planning for all eventualities with our sponsorships. Crypto or fast food.

We're still making this podcast. I did mention I have two children. Like, we got to keep doing this. Those internals, toys, and action figures. And if Bobby Chaps from Kissimmee-Claude wants to do the Andor cast, we are. Whatever. It's fine. Just to bear with us through some Wi-Fi issues.

Morals are passe. Yeah, I was just, I think you're absolutely right on an artistic level. I also just feel, and I know this sounds trite, and you know, and that's why we continue to say that we are, we cover the show in a certain way. But as Stephen Glover has been saying in every post-mortem, like, this show is not for everyone. And sometimes it's not for everyone to discuss or even to get on the deepest levels. But like I was thinking about the version of the story about the black-owned sushi restaurant that was written or show run by a white guy, which shouldn't get made. And I'm not auditioning for it. However, my number has not changed.

Okay. I'm just saying that that story in and of itself in the wrong hands. So I should throw away my pilot for Sam Bankhead Dreams of Sushi then. No, no, that one's still very much in play. that show would be mostly, I can imagine, aspirational and triumphant, you know, which is a mode of storytelling that is not, is fine. Like, that's good. Like, there are plenty of movies and stories like that. But this wasn't that.

This was about a lot more than that. And it wasn't about, you know, it passes the racial bechal test in the sense that, like, this is not about white people's perception of black people's ability to make sushi. this was about DeMarcus talking to Alfred about how he's behaving, about what he wants, and about what their perception of each other is. And then ultimately, Darius punches him in the face

because he thinks he's inside of a dream. Right. There aren't that many shows to my memory that end as the show, that end with a mission statement again. Shows generally follow an arc, especially serialized arcs of the pilot is your mission statement.

And then you spend the years after evolving, growing, changing, maybe getting very far away from what you originally were. And then because of the weight of what you have become, you have to both resolve the recent stuff, but then somehow spiritually or karmically reach all the way back to the beginning. And that often paralyzes people or trips them up. And I think that like the Mad Men finale has incredible moments and really boneheaded moments, in my opinion.

I wrote about it at the time, it's trying to do all of that. And often that's what sinks things. And like for Atlanta, this was more Atlanta than the pilot, as we've talked about many times, was sort of like a false flag operation to get on the air. Like this was the show, all of its contradictions, all of its frustrations, all of its ambitions, all of its ambition, and all of its just absolute, I mean, it was also at its best. When the dude at the deprivation tank says, So, so funny.

But also, by the way, just to your point about like the Glover Brothers being like, we're just doing what we're doing and people don't like it or appreciate it or don't understand it. In the finale, we are mainly in Darius as POV, which is not a place we've spent a lot of time. And in the finale, we casually get maybe the most devastating. 80 seconds of the show as it relates to its characters

internal emotional lives since the Alfred episode that was basically about both Alfred's mother and the Woods episode

they're like oh that they're in the studio and that instrument has just been in the corner they could always play it and then they devastate us with like 80 seconds

in the middle of this it's just virtuoso shit when they're able to pull that off my favorite thing about this episode that none of the characters know they're in the last episode of Atlanta. Yes.

Oh my God. Yes, they're not hugging. This isn't about Erne and Van packing up a movie to L.A. Otherwise, is just like, well, we dug coal together. And it's nothing wrong with that. Like, you know, it's like... I'm sorry, what show is that? That's justified.

But like, you know, like everybody... Most of the shows that we love, like even the Sopranos final scene is like, the family knows that this is the last scene of the Sopranos. You know, we don't... I don't think that that's the last joint that those four people are going to close together. You know what I mean? Or that everything changes from there.

And, you know, whether or not you want to get into the new heartiness of whether that was the entire series is supposed to be a dream, I just found myself not caring at all. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think that Darius dreamed the last four seasons and that he's been coping with the grief of his brother by going to this deprivation tank and now can't get out. The only time. Yeah. Yeah.

I agree with you. only time, since this show taught me how to watch it, a lesson I admittedly did not remember during the delay between seasons two and three. This episode was the only time I found myself. Admittedly, you lost a ton of money in crypto in that time. So you were really, you needed a lot help. By the way, no disrespect to our boss, but million dollar picks, really poorly names. Really poorly named the season. Yeah. Yeah. This was the only episode in which I found myself begging the show for something. And what I was begging was, don't cut back to the TV. Don't cut back to the TV. Don't. End on his face, please. And of course, they didn't need me to say that.

But that was the last time I really wished for them to just, I really wanted them to leave us in the ambiguity. And of course they did. I think your point is really, really smart and really important to to underline. Because in the Sopranos, it's not just that last scene, which is just imbued with not just their knowledge of some finality, but the audience anticipating it, which is what David Chase was playing off of. It's that AJ is going to join the military, right? And he wants to, like, drive a helicopter for Donald Trump or something incredibly prescient like that. It's that they, the heaviness and the decisiveness of putting the chess pieces where you want to leave them forever, which, you know, is not something that people really ought to worry about anymore since

everything gets rebooted, but that intentionality, the heaviness of that, like, this is the last time we're going to see them, and they're leaving them in a place that is significant. And part of the incredible nature of Atlanta was, Atlanta isn't, although it's driven TV culture aesthetically, I think, it wasn't trying to drive culture broadly. It was always just sort of ghost riding the ghost car that was in front of that strip club, you know. Like, it's living and breathing in the moment that it is made. And the characters aren't burdened with. Earn leaving Atlanta isn't significant in a TV show like Sam closing cheers or whatever.

Exactly. Exactly. Or Rob Morrow leaving the town in Northern Exposure. It wasn't about that. And I'm so glad that the final episode wasn't about that. It just continues to, like, respirate the world. And that's what that finale felt. like for me. It was just, man, it was a really good episode. We can move on to White Lotus,

but I just, I wouldn't forgive myself if I didn't mention that the Cree Summer scene in this finale was one of my favorite scenes in the show. And just like the sweetness, but also the like, I don't know, the writing was just elite in that scene. It just felt like two people, you know, I just really adored like that pharmacy scene for some reason and just being like, I used to see life as this battle, you know, like I just loved it. Yeah. And also that it's Cree Summer, who is incredibly significant for people of our age, I guess, and Donald Glover's age as well. I had no idea that Cree Summer had such a crazy good voice acting career. Yes, that's basically what she's been doing, right?

She's like incredibly successful. Yeah. But she's also very important for people of our generation on a different world. And like, just, I think that scene, that's the way. I mean, I don't want to presume anything about these guys. but when you bring an older black acting icon onto the show to talk about how she's changed and how she sees the world now and what her priorities are,

that's how Atlanta says A.J. Soprano is joining the military. Do you know what I mean? It's just being like, here's a way, here's a road. The show isn't about that road, but there are roads branching off of this town, you know, in these lives. And it's really artful that that happened, what, like eight minutes into the episode. not 28 minutes of the episode. Yeah. I'm sad. It's over.

I'm glad they did it on their terms. I wouldn't be surprised if in three or four years we get like three episodes of Atlanta. You know what I mean? Like, out of nowhere kind of like, guess what we decided to do? What would happen if like Paperboy was playing Coachella or something? That's even the worst idea I've ever made in my life.

But like, I'm not so sure that they're done. And I'm so glad that they did the show the way they did so that it's not like, Don't go back and ruin it. You know what I mean? All I want, I mean, I say this every time we've talked about the show. But like Brian Tyree Henry's performance on the show is one of my favorite of all time on television. It's up there with his performance in the Eternals.

It's amazing. It's, well, it's a little shy of it. But it's, you know, it's in the conversation. And he choked, but I was on this podcast being like, this movie is dog shit until he shows up. I'm not sure if we're going to keep potting. What takes? I, I mean, I'd love to revisit. that? I mean, I never want to see that movie again, but like, I genuinely had...

I would love for you to revisit 80% of the takes where you're just like, I walked out and I was in tears of the beauty of the world. And they'd like, if you revisited like that, I would be like, are you sure? I mean, that movie was like two hours and 50 minutes. An hour and 10 minutes. I was like, this is one of the worst things I've ever seen. And then there's the Brian Tyree Henry scene. And he's such a good actor. I was like, okay, there's beauty again. There's something. I'm going to buy the Lego set of the scene of him and his husband, which must be. Must be sold out at all the east side of Los Angeles targets. I just wanted to say like when he stands up before he gets the monologue blown back at him about the sushi place and he's just like he's just going to go.

That's how I want to spend our last time with that character on this show. It's just he's just he's just done. He's just fed up. Nobody has ever played those emotions like he does with this character and it would have felt false if it had been something else if the mask had dropped. and you've been like, you know what, Earn, thank you for managing me in my career. Yeah, if it had been like the last scene was Paperboy, was Allen and Earn at Atlanta Hartsfield Airport, being like, we sure did it. You know, I would have just been like, that's really touching, but like it's also like,

that's not what the show needed. Did you hear when the cop asked us as part of the sobriety test, how many seasons were there of Homeboys in space? Yes, I did. Okay, I just want to make sure. She got her right. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way. way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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All the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. Andy, you know, you were mentioning Atlanta teaching you how to watch it.

And I like that idea a lot. And I want to apply it to the White Lotus. We're just for a few minutes here. Super enjoyable episode. Loved Aubrey Plaza in this episode. I think I'd be curious. And maybe we could talk about a little bit later in the week. But I wanted to ask you how you're watching White Lotus right now.

Because I think that there's two ways somewhat informed by the totality of the first season. the show, which I think was at once a, who's going to do what this episode and who's in the coffin and what's going to happen to Murray Bartlett's character and everything. And then there's the, that's a show about colonialism, that's a show about privilege, that's a show about whatever. And I think I find myself watching White Lotus on a week-to-week basis now. And I'm like, very interested to see who fucks who on this show and like what's going on. But sort of like trying to rip away the cobwebs at, like, like the what is it about part?

Because I feel compelled to ask that when it's somebody like Mike White making a show. I'm like, this is a cool drama, but I know it's about something. I was sort of circling, given Porsche's malaise, given this trip to the Godfather village,

this idea that no matter where you put people, they're basically miserable and lonely. You know, and that like, and that these things that you think are of great, historical value, either culturally or anthropologically, like the godfather just becomes a tourist attraction. These mythological statues and artifacts become decoration in a boutique hotel, you know, like that these things just decay and as does love. But I'm not sure if this show

even needs me to do that. What do you think? And maybe that's a tribute to the quality of the show that it doesn't need it. And so I think that in the pantheon of my most extreme takes, of which my maybe this is okay, opinion of the Eternals ranks up there. I have a weird one. I have a wild one for you after watching this third episode of White Lotus

Season 2, which is I'm loving White Lotus season 2. I am loving watching it. Yeah. I am finding this so pleasurable and entertaining and but not in a like oh great I can throw that on and you know really get get through some wordles but like I'm really drawn in to a degree that I am shocked by honestly both because of my deep admiration and ultimately affection for the first season but also my previously existing slight allergy

to Mike White and also the like even my reaction to the first episode I did not see this coming right I'm finding it absolutely intoxicating. And I think it may have something to do with your gentle and broad questions about what it's doing. Because for all of the praise that you could throw out the first season, most of which was deserved, I think it was on both of our top ten less. Gentle isn't something I would have said about it. Famously not on mine, but not because I didn't like it.

Yeah. Well, I was going to let you slide, you know, because I'm the forgiving half of this podcast famously. I think that because it is about sadness and decay and it is about gender and about performative roles in contemporary society, but it is not Twitter after Dave Chappelle does a monologue. Now, that's pretty broad standard to set. but it doesn't feel there were moments in the first season that felt very very reactive to the moment in which Mike White was writing it which I think probably spoke probably is one of the reasons why it connected right but a lot of the stuff that Sidney Sweeney and I forget the actor who played her friend who was very good on the show and I feel terrible that I'm forgetting it at this moment but like a lot of the way they talked about the world the books they were reading the social media stuff like that did feel like a law and order for New Yorker subscribers in a way. And the stuff here with these three generations of men, each trying to be something other than what they are,

feels more, it feels richer, it feels calmer to me, and it feels very grounded in something. And I'm very compelled by that. I just think these are, even Tanya in this episode seemed dialed down slightly. You know, she seemed less like a character,

and seemed, and this is something I think we've been under-praising, because when she was announced as being in season two, I was like, oh, so she's the Scott Bacula jumping from season to season, and it'll be a funny bit again or whatever as she gets into it. But he found a way to fold her in organically because her sadness is the virus that's infecting this hotel in this show, and that her reaction, she wants a fortune teller to tell her the future, but the fortune teller tells her something real.

And she says, that's negative. That's not what I wanted out of this. That's wrong. And that's the show, right? That's the luxury of the White Lotus. She has a transactional relationship with everything. I'm finding it really, really impressive. Like, it's like, oh, wait, we've had 55 minutes.

And so what happened? Okay, yeah, we could go, we could do the TikTok of the episode, but I just, it was just kind of lapping at the shores of my viewing. You know, I was like, oh, we're here. We're watching this. I was going to try and ask you, like, where are you? I mean, for me, the, Ethan Harper, Cameron Daphne part is kind of like in a tier above everything else.

And I'm still sort of waiting for the Albi, Bert, and Dominic stuff to kind of congeal for me or to cohere for me. But I would just say, I think that the Aubrey Plaza performance is now nearing the like Tommy Lee Jones and no country for old men. Like there has never been a better part for an actor. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that the performance is the same. But like I can't believe. He must have written it for her. Yes.

And also like, It's like such a perfect, like, exploration of what she can do as an actor, where it's like, she scares the shit out of me and also I would love to hang out with her. Yeah, I didn't mean that, like, that's a, that makes it easier and somehow less worthwhile as a performance. I mean that the best performances often come from people who see a certain performer and see things in them that maybe others don't or they haven't had the chance to do and they on screen and they bring that out of them. I mean, I agree, but I think that, you know, this is. There's a long time professional dance critic. You could make the comment that dancers are often only as good as their partner.

And is it Megan Fahey? Is that her name? Getting it right, the actress. She is really, really good. And what she is bringing to this part to play with Aubrey Plaza and to fill in the rhythm and the bass and like provide something to some context and to provide shades. So that this version of this character. who's like, you know, let's take an edible, he cheats on me, I do what I want, I'm not a victim, is the same character that we saw bubbling over and talking about giving money to sick pets

when she's a little bit wine drunk on the internet. You know, like the consistency of allowing this to have depth. The other thing about this episode that I feel like we should mention is the aesthetic flexes in it. Like this is, when we talk about Mike White and what he's made here, we generally are talking about his writing and how it's why. He doesn't have a writer's room. This is just all in his head. And he just spins these narratives with multi-prongs.

And like, that's just, that's hard for anyone to do, let alone in rooms of people. But he directs all the episodes. And so the Harper, the almost surreal Harper walking through the Palazzo, no, the Piazza, they rent a Palazzo. She's walking through the Piazza, where it's all men. Yeah. This show hasn't always done stuff like that. And suddenly it's doing it and it's working for me. And I felt the same way about jet ski dance.

You know, it's like, oh, okay, so he can do these things and it's working. I would also say, I think that the way that he's kind of constructed or laid out the physical world of this show this season is very, very subtly awesome. You know, like, I know where people are walking to and where they're going. Like, do you understand what I'm saying? Like, oh, that's where the pool is and that's where the restaurant is and that's where the dinner. restaurant is and that's the front desk and like they're sneaking in through this sort of side door where they won't be spotted but I just thought I think he's doing a wonderful job I really have nothing but praise for this season I just think I'm trying to like yeah I'm trying to be first to the

post with like a great take about what it is and I'm not sure that it even needs me to there it's interesting because one person is writing this but one of the things that we often praise TV and the way TV is made for is the multitude of voices that in a show is often, there's one person at the helm, but there's a multitude and a diverse multitude of voices providing perspective that ultimately adds to the verisimilitude or the emotional truth of the larger project and to everyone involved in the project. And I'm not saying that's bad. I think that's amazing. But it is unique, I think, to see Mike White be able to play and write both sides of the Albion Portia relationship, for example. It feels, again,

who knows what that really means? You know, you many people may disagree. agree. But I feel that there's real truth to both sides of them, you know, that he is clearly a nice guy and means well and is being respectful and seeking consent. And she is also desirous of a nice guy and appreciates it, but also is chafing at the way he behaves and the softness. And that scene with them at the pool, with the random bro with sensitive nips, like, that's kind of a master class, right? Because there's every character in that scene, there's one or two extra choices that makes it feel a little more real, makes it hit a little harder. It's not just that there's some, you know, rippled Adonis in front of her attempting her.

It's that he also seems quite clearly in just one line of dialogue, maybe a little bit, do she? Yeah. Like just maybe, but maybe the percentage of the cocktail is better for what she wants. Like she can put up with 15% of that if it's, you know, that's all in play in a scene that none of the dialogue is about. any of it. And maybe that's what you get when you have a very talented writer who is also directing it. And so it's just appearing on the screen the way he intended it to without any miscommunications. But like, that's really impressive. That's really impressive. We can wrap it up there. We'll be back on Thursday to talk about Andor. There's also some other special surprises planned on Thursday.

I will not give that away. We were produced as always by Kaia McMullen, who definitely supports John Dutton for governor. We'll be back on Thursday. Thanks for listening. Kai, do you respond to his emails his campaign emails or do you delete them? She sends them. I'm a top donator. You're a bundler. She's a bundler. Hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone.

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