The Watch - Ben Stiller on Creating ‘Escape at Dannemora’ | The Watch (Ep. 308)

Episode Date: November 20, 2018

The adaptation of John le Carré’s ‘Little Drummer Girl’ premieres this week on AMC (1:18). ‘Escape at Dannemora’ executive producer Ben Stiller talks about how he got involved with the project (25:32); working with Patricia Arquette, Benicio Del Toro, and Paul Dano (35:16); and his inspirations for the show (45:51). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Ben Stiller Read Alison Herman’s review of ‘Escape at Dannemora’ here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at therigger.com and calling in on the other line, definitely not where he was during Thursday's episode. It's Andy Greenwald. My commitment to this bit, Chris, is so strong that I got in my car. I drove back to Santa Monica.

Yeah. On Thursdays, we are recording this on Thursday. We're talking about this for Monday's show. When you hear this, I will be overseas in England. And Andy, what better time for me being in England for us to talk about my favorite British author, John LeCare, and his new show, based on one of his best-selling novels, Little Drummer Girl, which is on AMC tonight. Also in the second half of this podcast, we have an extensive interview with Ben Stiller, the director of all. seven episodes of Escape at Danamoa, which is airing on Showtime.

It was on last night. We talked to Ben about that season, the mini series that he made, the limited series that he made about the upstate New York prison break that kind of captivated the country in 2015. But first, let's talk a little bit about drummer girl, man, because... Chris, we should also probably say that before somehow transition magically in audio fidelity a bit before we talked to Ben's... I just don't want people to jump here.

Yeah, I don't want you guys to freak out. and think that Andy somehow is pretending to have worse audio fidelity now and then magically got it better when Ben Stiller shows up, because God forbid. Before, Chris, also, before we just one of the best shows of the year, before we preview it, we won't spoil it.

Ask me, do you think the odds are good if he drives a Kia? Because I think it's actually, I almost didn't mention it. So I was like it's a Kia. But, you know, no disrespect to Kia. I just feel like Shiloha both might drive something a little more exotic. But now the more I think about it,

I think it definitely was him, right? He definitely drives the Kia to dance. There's only two answers to this question. A, it's a rental, because all rentals are Kia's. Yes. Or B, Shia is so advanced that, like, he knows that Kia's are going to have some sort of weird, ironic spike in popularity in 18 months, and he's just way ahead. It's like having skinny jeans, but, like, before the strokes, you know?

I want both run both these theories and just, Mike, moments to go, live on air, I think that it's on Monday. Why does he need a rental car? Like, what did he do to his regular ride? Specifically today. I don't think anything I speculate could be considered legal.

You don't know what happened to Shial and both other whip? I can't really get into that. What about his other, other whip? No, we can't talk about that either. Kaya is fielding subpoenas as we speak. Okay. That's fair. Next week's up. Next week's show will be produced by Kia, not not Kaya.

That's right. It's an illegal jeopardy. Ben Stiller is on the podcast. Ben Stiller is on this podcast, but first let's talk about Little Drummer Girl, man. So AMC is airing this show. It's six episodes. About an hour each.

It stars Michael Shannon, Florence Pugh, and Alexander Scarsgaard. It is based on a, I think it's 70. I want to say 79. 801. 81, 82, 83 in there. Yeah, 82. It's an 82 novel by John LaCarris.

which I would probably venture to say as my favorite writer. It is among Andy's favorite writers, I think. And it is the latest adaptation of a sort of more recent spate of LeCarray adaptation, starting with the most recent Tinker Taylor, which was directed by Thomas Alpherson

and stars Gary Oldman as George Smiley, who is kind of La Cary's most frequently used protagonist, a British spy master. And since then, they've done Night Manager, which was Hugh Lorry and Tom Hiddleston, And they did, I think, our kind of traitor with Ewan McGregor, but that one didn't get a lot of play. There are talks to start doing smiley miniseries based around the spy who came in from the cold, et cetera. I wouldn't be surprised if we got into Tinker Taylor again, since it's such a rich text with those.

These shows or these limited series are overseen by Le Carre's sons, I believe. and they generally have they generally are like incredibly satisfying but a little bit light you know they look good the people in it look good they have it's star studded but they don't sometimes have the same intellectual heft or

rigor that sometimes I feel like his novels obviously do that is not the case for this version of Little Drummer Girl which I have completely blown away by the first two episodes I think what you said is very well observed. Like the night manager was fun, but it felt as breezy as Tom Hiddleston's outerwear.

Yeah, it was a linen shirt. It was a linen shirt. They are not summer part of your stock. You have to wear them in for a while. It is, it's very smartly done. It is very complicated. It does not hold your hand. But it is also who has done an amazing job.

of here. It feels like everyone involved was thrilled, ineffable, happy to see it. And the performances are great. We'll get into them. Give the production designer an Emmy. This show looks dynamite. The colors, the clothes, is considered. And there are a lot of frames. I mean, this is a show that in its first few episodes, map of Europe anyway, and then it promised to travel further afield. It is really fun to watch this. And yes, I know people are wondering, the runtime on those first two episodes, not short. Didn't feel it either, Kate. Yeah, I didn't either.

I agree with you, the production design, the costume design, the music, and especially Park Chan-Wook's camera work and what he does with this material. Often we give like these sort of platitudes about, oh, great job here with the cinematography or whatever. One thing that I really felt like was happening on this show is that all of these different departments are actually actively storytelling. They're actively contributing to the story. And I'll tell you something about little drummer girl.

and La Cary doesn't really tell simple stories. Little Drummergirl is quite confusing. It's okay to get done with the second episode and think to yourself, I'm not quite sure I understand what she's doing. So this story is essentially this. It's set during a time of obviously great conflict between Israel and Palestine in 1979,

and the story begins with a bombing of an Israeli cultural attache's house in Germany. And the Israelis begin to act on their intelligence and trying to find out who did this bombing and where they are and going about it that way. And to do that, they kidnap one member of this Palestinian cell, terror cell,

and they replace that person that they've kidnapped with Alexander Scarsguard. And I know that that sounds unlikely. I know that that sounds like a stretch, but you just, all I want to tell people about this show is to go with it. because in some way, that experience that you're having of not quite understanding whether this will work

and not quite understanding what the ultimate goal here is, is what the characters are kind of going through. This is about people who are sort of creating, to quote the show, a theater of the real. They're essentially trying to flush out other members of this terrorist cell by creating a real-life narrative in which this British actress, played by Florence Pugh,

the character's name is Charmaine, winds up pretending to be a radicalized version of herself who is looking to get involved in militarized politics and militarized terrorist activities. And Alexander Scarsgaard is sort of her shepherd in this whole thing. And even though he is an Israeli agent, he is pretending to be a Palestinian. And so it's definitely confusing.

And so much of what this show is about is these murky ideas about identity and quote-unquote the role you are playing in life and the role of your own life and the lies we tell ourselves about our own lives and the lies we choose to admit to and the lies that we choose to commit to. And it's just the way that Part Chambwick films it

is with this kind of dreamy, wandering, De Palma-ish verve that looks at people's hand gestures and their mannerisms and you're forced to kind of always be wondering, is this person acting, or is this actor who I'm watching on screen, committed to this idea of who they are? And it winds up being this really pleasurable hall of mirrors.

Yeah, and I think that what you're talking about brings out one of the most interesting aspects of the work, the book, his entire, very thin membrane that can, the idea that you could be, until suddenly the guns, you know, that ideas, radical ideas can be chatted about in universities and in the field and they mean something else.

And those were ideas that were, of course, to get me on the hook for Munich. Because, yo, people listening to this pod know how much I love the Steven Spielberg film Munich. There is, in which a bunch of good actors. Are you talking about Erdog Bannock, King of the Jews? If you take a bunch of good actors and you give them sideburn and you put wide, appellos on their jacket. And you tell me their Mossad? Come on. Take my money. Take

all of my money. And the king, King Banna in this film, in this miniseries, who has transformed himself into a master named Kurt. Like, he's not convenient, even when they're speaking to Germans

in Germany. The ones of the entire production just being concerned. Because what Shannon is doing is making a person up against accent. He plays with such don't worry about whether he's a native hebrews. I'm actually quite happy that they're airing two episodes on the first night. The first hour is beguiling, but is somewhat confusing just in terms of like what's happening and who are these people?

And by the second episode, which has some overlapping narratives of the first episode, you really start to get a rhythm. And when the main characters are finally in, let me just say, an outrageously well-appointed Greek villa with these just gorgeous archivalves. architecture and interior design, when they finally are all together and the pieces are starting to come together and you're like, oh, I see, so they're doing this and she's doing that and they want her to do this. But even then, I mean, it's only the beginning of the twists and turns and the mind fucks that happen in this show. You know, I just can't recommend it more highly. To see

this many people just executing what is really complicated material from Le Carre is quite impressive. It's a really high bar to clear and they cleared it for me. much two heroes recommend things. Feel like you're already on board. Yeah, Greek Villa and King Bannon. Ivan Lanister shows the great, I think it's probably a great way to spend through it. Yeah, so when we get back together

after the Thanksgiving week, we will discuss this in much more detail and get into more plot points. So what we'll do now is we'll take a break, and when we're back, Andy and I are going to introduce our interview with Ben Stiller and talk a little bit about Escape at Dan Amora, which you can watch on Showtime. You can watch Little Drummer Girl on AMC.

Andy, thank you so much for calling in and thank you so much for driving all the way back to the same spot. I just want you to meet podcasting while now driving in traffic to pick up my daughter from school. I mean, this is the first. This might be a podcasting first. Goodbye little drummer girls. Let's get into it, Brent. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by ADT. ADT can design and install a smart home just for you backed by 24-7 protection. Explore the vast number of things you can do with your secure smart home like Dorman service,

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But the story doesn't end there. Pain is still at work, determined to find answers don't miss up and vanished, a one-night special TV event based on the hit podcast, Catch Up on Oxygen on Demand, the new network for crime. Andy, what a special show we have today. This is exciting. It's Monday, and you know, you probably know by now,

that Ben Stiller has a show on Showtime, a mini-series called Escape at Danamoa, starring Paul Dino, Benicia D'Oro, and the amazing Patricia Arborra, Arquette. It is about the 2015, infamous prison breakout at Clinton and upstate New York and about the story of David Sweat and Richard Matt and Joyce Mitchell, who sort of aided and abetted their escape. And it is now the subject of Ben Stiller's show, which is on Showtime on Sundays, and, you know, Andy and I got a chance to talk to Ben Stiller, which is pretty amazing. Yeah, and

by the way, we should say he wanted to talk to us, and which was incredibly flattering and our response to it was there's been some mistake let's connect you with bill simmons producer yeah and for whatever reason he wanted to talk to us and i i hope i hope we justified that decision because it was it was a great to talk to him both because it was very cool to talk to him on the phone from new york but also because this project is really interesting it is in some ways in some ways a slam dunk because it is a rip from the headline story and those Headlines were pretty salacious and interesting. But it's also fascinating because of the talent assembled to make the story

and the way they chose to tell the story. Because it's not just having Ben Stiller, who obviously was a director from the beginning in directing shorts for Saturday Night Live and his director of many films. But this is, I was looking over as IMDB, this really is, the last few films he's directed have all been relatively straightforward comedies.

This is not that. Yeah, no. This was written by Brett Johnson, who was part of, Matt Weiner's writing stuff on Mad Men and the great Michael Tolkien. Michael Tolkien, who wrote the player and has been a phenomenal screenwriter for many years. Benetio del Toro, Patricia Arquette, Paul Dano. I mean, this is a heavy-hitting production.

It is really television 2018. Yeah, I mean, it's a credit to the almost chameleonic eye of Stiller that if you showed this to anyone, they would be like, did Sydney Lumet direct us? Is it like who, like is this? Well, does Sydney Lumet like Nick Jonas? Well, yeah, we'll get into the Nick Jonas stuff. What Stiller did here is essentially take the aesthetics of 1970s, like late 1970s cinema, like all the president's men in Dog Day afternoon and straight time.

And he went upstate to New York and shot in the real locations where the story unfolded and, you know, shot in the prison. And because of that, what you get is this really granular, detailed, process-oriented story about how these two men and this woman orchestrated this incredibly daring, escape from prison. And it gets deep into the psychology of what it's like to live upstate, especially through a very long dark winter. And what drives people to do things like this? And I think it not only in terms of escaping, but in terms of being sort of a life of criminality like that. And at the same time, you know, he doesn't really care about likability. It's not an ironic story.

It's not a satire. There's not a lot of comic moments. It's very, very, very, very much concerned with the realism and the accuracy and the chain of events that unfolded. And I would say just from a critical perspective, one of the reasons why I appreciated it so much, and I really have enjoyed the episodes I watched, there are no real spoilers. Obviously, Wikipedia is your spoiler here, but we really only talked to Ben about process and what inspired him, the specifics you can discover for yourself. Though his style is definitely inspired by films of the past, I really appreciated how Escape at Dendamora differentiates itself from other rip-from-the-headlines miniseries that we've seen recently, specifically like the American Crime Story series on FX.

Chris and I were both fans of the OJ series. I think we both were a little bit out on, well, maybe different degrees of out on the Versace one. Although that did obviously have its fans, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I only bring them up to say that part of Ryan Murphy's project there is to use these historical events as canvas. This is on which to paint other observations about American culture at various times or even about the present. What I appreciate about Escape at Danamoah is that it's deeply character-based, deeply specific about these characters in this moment, and we'll leave whatever theorizing or generalizing to viewers later on should they choose to do that. Yeah, I think, you know, Ben referred to it as a miniseries, and it actually does remind me more of a miniseries.

It feels more like one long story. The episodic breaks are, I wouldn't call them arbitrary, but they're not as traditional as you'd expect to. you know, start Dana-Maw, cliffhanger at the end, to kind of keep you enticed and binging and stuff like that. It has its own tempo, and I really respect it. And just because we didn't bring it up with Ben, and we're talking about the show and you guys are listening now,

it's not just those three stars who are so good in it. There's also really terrific supporting performances by the great Robert Morris, the great Bonnie Hunt, and Eric Lang, who's also great as Patricia Arquette's character's husband. There's a lot of detail here, and it's a lot of, I don't want to say, fun. It's not necessarily a fun story, but it's a nice surprise to have on TV. It's a huge accomplishment,

yeah. We should get into it. Yeah, let's get into our interview with Ben Stiller. Ben, I kind of wanted to ask you to start off with, I think you were shooting Zoolander 2 when this, the escape was unfolding here. So I was curious about whether or not that that, was this a captivating story for you when it was happening in the news, or was it something you caught up with afterwards? I wasn't that, honestly, wasn't that aware of it when I was over because I was in Italy and I, I wasn't watching the news a lot. I guess it wasn't really going on the Italian news stations, as much as it was on CNN.

And I know it was all over CNN when it was happening here, but I really wasn't that aware of it. I can't believe that this wasn't like a reverse Foxy Noxie situation in Italy. They weren't riveted by this? Can't we give them anything back? Wow. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, Foxy Noxie.

That's right. I don't know what their interest level was. You know, when I came back, It was such a New York story, too. You know, and just being a New Yorker, kind of, I was really interested in it on that level. But, yeah, I had no real sense it was happening, but maybe somebody had mentioned it. And not really until I got back, and I got sent one of these scripts that Brett and Michael had written. I tell you the truth.

I love that you said New York story, because I couldn't agree with you more. I'm only recently to the West Coast, and Chris was in New York for a long time as well, so I'm sure he agrees with me on this. what's great about what you've done here is that it is deeply New York, not necessarily New York City, of course, but New York State, which is its own entity that is very often overlooked because of the shininess of the city. Was that part of your entrance into the project and what piqued your interest? Yeah, I mean, I grew up in New York, and I was sort of fascinated by the idea of what upper New York State really was. The fact is actually New York. You know, because as a New York city person, you always think of New York is just the city. And I have relatives that live up in Rothland County, which is like, you know, 40 miles or so north of the city.

But, you know, the fact that New York is just so vast and huge. And when you get outside anywhere outside the city, it just is like a different, you know, you could be anywhere in the country, really, in terms of just the attitudes and some of the politics and just the economic situation when you get into these small towns, which, you know, New York State. just there are these areas that are really impressed and just so far from what, you know, you think of when you think of New York as a New York or a New York City person. Right, and not just that, but they're almost as far away culturally as they are geographically from the city, and yet because it's New York State, Andrew Cuomo still is the governor and responsible for this on some level, and all of it is being refracted through the news media's version of it in the New York Post headlines, which gives a really completely different

energy to the entire event. Yeah, for sure. And you realize that just the state is, bath and the state itself is just a whole other entity than New York City. And I found that when we were up there because Governor Cuomo ended up in at first town. Some of the people were skeptical as to what we were doing. Directing it and, you know, a comedy person known as a comedy person that, you know, we're going to do kind of, we're going to make fun of them or try to do it. And I stopped talking to people and I would talk to everybody who we would encounter, but there were even some signs up, like Ben Stiller go home. There were one or two of those.

You're like, what? Yeah, and some anti-quomo cards and some windows too. So it was interesting because, you know, I was just like, wow, really? I didn't, had no idea, but it was, I could understand as I spent more time up there, what their concern was, which was, you know, this is like this little town that nobody really pays attention to, except for when these guys escaped three years ago. and then when we came back and, you know, decided to film there. So I think, you know, their reputation is, you know, as a town,

was kind of like, all right, it's just known for this one thing. And I don't think they want to be known just as, you know, the place where these guys broke out of it, but the prison was known at this place that was, you know, so poorly run. And these people, I think, have a lot of pride about what they do up there. Yeah, I mean, I think that I was going to ask you about the development process of this, because I know that Brett and Michael wrote a version of this script before,

the sort of official report came out about it, and then you guys revised it heavily afterwards. Was this something that you envisioned, once you sort of had that second version of the material? How soon was it before you were like, this is a seven-hour miniseries rather than a feature, rather than a 10-episode show or a 12-episode show or something that's going to take place over the course of multiple seasons?

Well, for an idea, they had to do it as a group script, and I thought they were really well-written and really interesting. I just didn't know how much. but it was actually true. And they had to make up a lot of stuff, and they decided to say what my connection was to it if I was going to direct it because I was really interested in it,

and came up with this format, which is originally, I think, eight, into seven episodes. What led you deciding that this needed to just be, I mean, because for the most part, I finished the series over the weekend. I don't want to give up away too many things about what's happening outside of what people

obviously already know from the news, but what led you to deciding this needed to be a three-character piece for the most part with a couple of supporting, parts, but rather than like this huge tapestry of the prison, you know, like the correctional system and government and media and everything else that probably could have been brought in, because it was very, you're so devoted to the perspective of these three characters and what they're going through over the course of the series.

Well, for us, I think that's what we were interested in was the actual relationships that developed as more than sort of telling sort of a, like a mosaic of all the different aspects of the manhunt and things like that. First of all, that stuff would have had to sort of come in later in in the series in introducing a new character to sort of, you know, lead the manhunter. That just felt a little bit artificial. So when we were doing the research, we met with the inspector general who wrote the report, Catherine Leahy Scott, and in a meeting with her, we just thought she was a really interesting person. It would be a really great framework for the story. And originally, we kind of had more of her in the story

because she did interviews with David Swede and with Joyce Mitchell that a lot of those transcripts are what we use for research. But, you know, ultimately it was just really the relationship that developed in prison between the three of them was really, to me, the core of it, which is Anne Joyce's husband, Lyle, who worked at the prison also.

Those four characters were the people who were, the story was centered around because they were developing this relationship with her that they ultimately used to help them get out. And she really got drawn into it. And she wasn't a marriage with a guy who worked at the prison. And, you know, they, it was a real relationship. So just, it was more the human aspect of that was interesting to me as much as the actual mechanics of the estate also, which I think too. But how they got to that was basically being able to develop a ship. and also just these friendships that occurred inside the ecosystem of the prison.

So that's why we focused it on the people, because I thought the people were the most interesting aspect of it. Yeah, I mean, Gene talks about that gray area in prison, and it seems like he's comfortable living in that gray area, but didn't ever expect it to break that hard, right? Yeah, I mean, I think that he was also just used to that. That was sort of the status quo in the prison, and that's, you know, he'd been a corrections officer there for a long time. But, you know, most of the corrections officers there generationally have worked there,

either their fathers or even their grandfathers have worked there. You know, that part of the state, it's just that's the main economy in that part of the state. I really appreciate, Ben, that you said, human moments of the human relationships, because I think that's what I was most impressed with, with the series that I've watched so far. Is your focus on the human interactions on a very base level, sort of emotional, between the characters, the very specific, not even TikTok, but like how they went into certain rooms and how they were able to be private away from people. There's a lot of attention paid to detail, which I think makes it a much more rewarding story overall. And I wondered how

you approached that balance, because there's such a fine line here. You know, it's reflected in the signs you said that were awaiting you when you got upstate, assuming that this was going to be, you know, Tropic Thunder 3 breakout or something. And finding that line between human behavior and comedy is something that I think you've really excelled at in your acting, certainly. And I was curious about how you brought that to bear on a true-to-life story like this from the director's chair. Well, I guess I felt the tone of it would be dictated by, you know, what actually happened. I mean, we really did go off of those transcripts a lot. And I got a chance to meet David Sweat also and, you know, talk to him for a few hours. And that was really

informative just to get a feeling of like what this guy was like and watching the interviews that Joyce Mitchell did with Matt Lauer and then getting up there and meeting the people up there. The tone of it to me felt like it should be very real. And I didn't know it's going to, I feel like it might have gone a little bit darker and more serious than maybe even I thought originally, but I didn't, and maybe even, I think, Showtime might have thought at first was going to maybe be, you know, a little bit kind of more like a dark comedy or the, you know, kind of like the ironic aspects of what was going on. But to me,

the goal was always just to sort of show the real events that happened and these real interactions with people, but I found kind of amazing that the things that happened in that prison could happen. And then when I got up to the prison, and we finally got access to go inside the prison, which I never thought we actually would have, because the New York State Department of Corrections didn't really help us out until we had the help of the governor.

or so about six weeks before shooting was the first time we ever even got in the prison. And at that point, we were very close to shooting. I've been working on it for a year, and I didn't think we'd ever even get close to it. So going in there, it was so oppressive. And it was, you know, to go into that cell block and feel the tension and the stress.

And really, just like the heaviness of it, it just sort of informed, you know, the feeling of, to me, of what the show was, which is these people are all stuck in this prison all the time, including the corrections officers and the civilian workers. who go there and work. And they have pride in their jobs, but it's also a really tough job and it's really stressful.

And it just kind of takes over your life. I can understand why these people would want to get out. And so we just sort of tried to let the reality sort of inform the tone of it. And these things happen and these relationships between corrections officers and inmates, but also civilian workers in these prisons, it goes on all the time. And one of the corrections officers that works there told me that they've been there for a 30 years that he said in his 30 years there, he'd seen the type of thing that happened between Tilly and those guys happened at least two dozen times. Jeez.

Over, you know, 30 years he's seen that. Yeah. What you were saying about wanting to get out, I mean, I think that's also reflected in the way that you and your team chose to shoot it. I mean, it's almost indistinguishable who's in a prison cell and who's in their home or apartment. What was the snow and the darkness and the way you've lit it? And that's very effective, I think. I wanted to sort of steer specifically the same idea of allowing the characters to have some humanity and some dignity to Patricia Arquette's performance, which for me was really

remarkable and really sort of grounded me in the type of story you ended up telling. Again, you sort of, you take that character and it would be so easy, I think, to get this wrong and make her from the start a villain, a herodin, a caricature. And I don't think either of you did that. And I think that's really a testament to the work that you both did, that it's not that way. you've allowed her to have, and again, at least through the first half of the season that I've seen, we understand emotionally her frustration. She is a living person despite being, you know, a woman in a small town,

older than protagonists we often see. She has sexual desires. She has agency. All of that is in there. Can you talk about working with Patricia on the character and what we ended up seeing on the screen? Yeah. I think Patricia, you know, this is an actress really. approaches the character as a human being and is not thinking about, you know, she's not thinking

about her as a good person or a bad person. I think she's just trying to understand who she is and get some sort of an insight into why she's doing what she's doing. And I think that's her process, which I don't even know how she does it. I mean, I know that she has, you know, She has no problem just getting into being the character and not worrying about being likable or looking a certain way. She's just, you know, she's just there to be the person to try to figure out how to connect with the human side of that person. I think she's also very concerned about finding the humanity in that person, you know. That was so important to her. So she did whatever she needed to do for herself to find a Tilly without worrying about,

portraying her as a good person or a bad person. And I think she's a complicated character because she's a very manipulative person when you really read these transcripts and you watch her be interviewed. You can tell that she's like, you know, she's got a lot going on inside that she's not really revealing. And then I talked also to other prisoners who were in the tailor shop with her. And, you know, I just heard these stories about what she would do in the tailor shop and how she would flirt with the inmates and how she really seemed to enjoy that dynamic.

I think what's interesting about the story is she's a woman who's being manipulated, but is also being manipulative. But she is a human being who has those, you know, who has those desires, I think, used that. And it was an important part of who she is. And that became, I think, for her, the way she was being used. And as a woman in this, you know, in a room with 40 guys, that was a big part of her power in that room, and I think that was a big part of who she was. And I think that shows that both her as a manipulator and also someone being taken advantage of too.

So on that flip side, then, Ben, what do you do with somebody like Benichio who's so idiosyncratic in his performances and is kind of iconic? I mean, any movie that he's in kind of almost becomes a Benichio Del Toro movie, no matter how much he's on screen, and he's got this presence.

And then, but then you obviously have this sense of accuracy, and you have, like, this larger story you're trying to tell. Like, he's incredible in this, in this piece. Well, how do you work with somebody like that who's, who's, so, so. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah. It's a crazy experience. I mean, I, you know, like, crossed paths with Benetio over the years.

We're kind of like the same age. And so, look, over the years, we've met up. I never worked with him. And I've always enjoyed his work. You famously lost that part in Sicario to him, we all know. It could have gone another way. Yeah. You know, he's a daunting guy.

And I felt, you know, when I looked at these images of Richard Matt, of the real Richard Matt, there were elements of Benetio that really matched up. And there were other elements that, you know, didn't quite match up. But he had this magnetism about him. And yeah, so it became about meeting with Benetio and talking about the character, Benica is also a painter. And so I think that was a connection for him into who this guy was. I think, you know, like Patricia, he has the same desire to get to the humanity of the character

to understand this person as, you know, not as one thing or the other, but for him to go in and play a guy like this, I think he is very concerned with trying to find a way in that's interesting and somehow that there's a logic to what this person does. For me, directing him, it was really just kind of like trying to figure out. And we really went through the store. I mean, you know, his process is very involved and he gets really involved in the script. And, you know, relating it to the real things that happened, we brought, he came up with Paul and I to visit with David Sweat. We all spent about six hours with him. And obviously, he couldn't meet Richard Matt because he's not around.

anymore, but I think he did the research on him and, you know, was just really trying to find his way into making this guy in his own way, as scary as he is, a human being also, because there was that side to him. And we should talk about the third member of the Troika. I was just thrilled to see Paul Dano just swall up out of his mind. I mean, did you give him his physical regime? Did you monitor his carbs? I'm just curious about this because I did not know he had that in him.

I fed him and Patricia Carr personally. You know, Patricia, she changed her body. But Paul, that was the first thing we talked about was David Sweat was a guy. And when we met with Sweat last year, he's very, he's small, he's skinny. He talks about building himself up in prison and bulking up because he was afraid of being hurt in prison by either corrections officers or other inmates. He just was a guy who was not naturally, you know, pumped like. that, but he had to put on an air. He kind of put on a character in prison to, uh, you know, out of fear. And I, and I felt like he had when, when I met him, he had this sensitivity about

him that, uh, you know, Paul, I think definitely has, you know, Paul's really wonderful actor. And that was the first thing he did was like, all right, let's get you the trainer and let's put on some muscle. And he was, he was, he just finished working on his film. Um, so it was, I think, you know, for him, it was kind of like total departure and being able to think into, And it was a long shoot. It was like almost, I guess we were shooting for seven and a half months or so. And he had to maintain that for a long time. So he did, I thought he didn't make the job.

One of the things that I love about Paul's performance is that it feels like he could have like, if he walked onto the set of Dog Day or straight time, like it would just make, he is so naturalistic and his way of like kind of just being in that world feels so real. and I know that you've talked a little bit about the influence of some of those 70s American cinema movies on this work that you did here. Can you tell me a little bit? Because I think people bring that stuff like we throw around all the President's Man or we throw around Dog Day as something that everybody aspires to be working more like in a vein like that. But what are those movies mean to you? And what was it that inspired you and influenced you when you were making escape?

Well, those movies made a lot to me just because of that, you know, that's my generation. and those are the movies I watched growing up. So, I mean, as much as Dog Day Afternoon or The Godfather or Marathon Man or Blind Adventure or Turing Interno, you know, they're all like, they're all big movies that I went to see, I mean, Planet of the Age. You know, these are the movies I went to see over and over again as a kid. And I guess it's just, you know, maybe it's the age you are when you see films on me. But I think, you know, what those movies, maybe not Planet of the Age were Towering of Enterno. But, like, you know, those movies have this really amazing texture and reality, both, both visually and in terms of the acting and the story. I think they, you know, it's not glossy. It's pre-glossy. It's pre-screens, really, I think, you know, in terms of how main characters are allowed to be in movies.

And, you know, like, I mean, Strait Time is a good example. I remember when the first time I saw Straight Time, I just really was not expecting that story to go where it went. because I thought, okay, there's this guy, it's called Straight Time, he's getting out of jail, he's putting his life together, it just, like, goes off a cliff, and he just goes the other way. And that was just so surprising and exciting to see, because you just didn't know where it was going to go. And so those movies, to me, and Doug Death, New is, like, I guess, you know, probably, like, one of my top five favorite movies,

and that, you know, because the characters are just very, very real and obviously brilliantly acted, but they're real people and there's humor and there's, there's seriousness, and there's no specific genre that it falls into, which is why they would never really probably be made today or be successful films today. And then visually, you know, for me, those movies, and there's a bunch of different cinematographers,

but, you know, those guys were just working with natural light and sort of figuring out these looks. I mean, one of the movies that I really, really love is taking column one, two, three, and you know that's owen royceman the cinematographer who you know who shot a lot of those great films and i listened to some podcast with him some like american cinematographers podcast or american society cinematographers where he talks about you're just trying to figure out how to shoot in the subway tunnels and they just literally just you know they had to find faster film and they didn't you know they had a very few lights they could bring down there now what what everybody does i think

at least if you have that aesthetic or if you like that you're trying to figure out ways to make it look like it used to, and that was just sort of organically, just how it was looking because of what, you know, the film stock and the lenses and the approach to the lighting. So I just felt, I honestly didn't have that idea for this going into it. It sort of developed out of going up to Danamora and then, you know, tonally knowing that I wanted to have a real kind of vibe. But then starting to see the prison and going into the real prison, it's like you're going back in time. anyway because you go through the doors and you can't you have to leave your cell phone.

So there's no cameras, no cell phones. The only communication in there is really people talking to each other on walkie-talkies or if you're a prisoner and, you know, you're passing notes to somebody secretly. That's literally how it's happening. So it could have been 1970 in there. And that to me felt like as we sort of developed, you know, the look and I found this thermocographer, Jessica Lee Gagne, who did a movie called Sweet Virginia last year that I thought It was really cool looking.

That's how we met. I thought, you know, we started to look at some of those movies and talk about it, and it kind of developed out of that. I like that we were talking about the way things used to look or maybe a little bit about the way movies used to be made because I'd love to take a step back for a second and just sort of ask you about how this experience maybe has changed what interests you, what you'd like to be doing, because obviously the industry is kind of at a strange time, or at least a crossroads.

This is the first time that you've, engaged with these new opportunities available on television. A story like this, you know, in the past would have been a two-hour movie. Now you can get these incredible stars, Oscar winners, to do a seven-hour piece. You know, you said it was multiple months of shooting. And at the same time, you're still finding pockets of time to deliver performances like you did in Meyerowitz stories, which I just wanted to name check since we have you on the phone because I just think that's an incredible film in one of your best performances. Did this experience being able to tell a story like this at this scale, this scope for

this service excite you about these possibilities, or is it more a feeling of freedom that you know you could do this, or go jump back into bigger budget films when and if the time is right? You know, it wasn't really a preconceived idea. I think it was just that this story came up, this opportunity came up, and it was, I think it's just sort of a product of the fact that this is the kind of thing that, you know, you're doing now on television as opposed to in the movies, at least it's much harder to get, as you're saying. You know, it's, and I was thing too. It's harder to get a movie made like this nowadays. And

so there's the opportunity to do it in this format and this medium. So that was really all that, it came out of that. It came out of that. I was coming off of Zoolander 2, which was, you know, not a big hit. So it was kind of like, all right, you know,

like, where do I go now? What am I doing? What I want to be doing? I have the production company or stuff in development. But it was an interesting time. And I actually did Myerwitz right out. literally, like right after Zoolander came out and had gotten the scripts on this and was basically in a process saying, like, I'm really, really interesting and I don't think I can do it because we don't have enough information about what happened. So when the Inspector General Report came out, I didn't have a lot going on, I had the time to work on this with the guys and to go up there and start researching it. I think if I've been bombarded with other opportunities at that time, I think, you know,

I might have, you know, not stuck with it as long as it took to actually get it made, because it wasn't that easy to get it to find a home for it. And ultimately, you know, we had battles along the way in terms of actually getting it to the point where it got greenlit and made because of budget and other things. But, yeah, I think the opportunities are there in television now that are, because there's just so much, there's some more places to do things that are interested in. and doing interesting stuff. I hope it comes back to the movies.

I think Netflix, it talked about this a little bit as I'm going to do in Myerwoods, but Netflix is one of the few places that is making movies that are in different genres that are interesting like that. It's just the catches. You don't really get to see them on the screen. Yeah, I mean, that's such a, we talk about that all the time. It's such a mixed bag.

I think it's going to be such a huge issue going into the award season this year, especially with Roma and with the Cohen Brothers movie where, you know, these are two, well, at least Roma will probably get nominated for Best Picture, and it's something that, on one hand, people are going to get to watch all over the world on their, you know, as soon as they want. But on the other hand, you know, a film like that, you kind of would want to have that reverential

experience going to the theater. Yeah, and I honestly think filmmakers really want that. And I don't have any inside information. I experienced what we went through on Myerwith because it went to Cam and I think some sort of, you know, backlash a little after that. To me, the filmmaker's always going to want to see your movie up on the screen. You're always going to want that. And I think

the same way, like everybody said film was going to disappear, or shooting on film was going to disappear, I think it's just too many filmmakers who really, you know, insists on doing it that way because they feel that's the way you should make a movie to have that option. I think the Netflix model, because Ted Serendos is a pretty

smart guy who really does love movies, but he obviously figured out this, you know, amazing model for his business. But I think he's going to, I hope, eventually kind of realize the screen experience is really important for an audience and for the filmmakers. So it feels like it might, you know, come around in some way. I don't think it's ever going to go away totally. Well, Ben, you've been really generous with your time. I would just have two quick final questions to ask you.

One being, you've said numerous times, you know, how much the Inspector General's actual report informed the storytelling decisions you made. But I can't help but assume that one moment was. ripped straight from your own life that you brought to bear on the screen, which is the ability to have a transformative emotional storytelling experience in your own head to a Nick Jonas song. And I wondered if you could just talk a little bit about why you were willing to share that part of yourself with us. And why was it chains of all the Nick Jonas' jams? Love of Nick Jonas's music is probably where it all stems from.

No, I mean, that came purely from the fact that, you know, Joyce Mitchell did listen. listen to this top 40 radio station in the Taylor shop all the time. She would play this 95 triple X station. And so we just went and got their playlist from January to June of 2015. And that was, that was the inspiration for any song you hear in there. And then change theme to me to sort of like, you know, very obvious. And then there was just like, I actually think it's a very good song. It's a really good song. It's a really good song. It's catchy for sure. It's catchy. I'm okay.

It's a catchy song, Ben. I don't know what's wrong with him. I'm a jealous guy. I'm a jealous guy. Yeah, jealous is his best song. Yeah, right. But did that fit the moment yet? Because Matt was, inmate Matt wasn't even stepping to her. I know. I understand the context. Ben, I actually have to say that one of my favorite lines in the entire series is when Lyle says I'm more of a news and weather guy as if that's a genre of music. Yeah. Yeah. But that's Lyle too.

You really, you know, and I actually ran into, I don't, I've never met Nick Joe's. I ran into about three weeks ago and, and, and, uh, we're so excited to me. Tell him that we're featuring his, uh, his song in the show. This is he seems kind of non-plus. Oh, it's a whole new phase of his career is about to open up. He doesn't realize. Finally, I, we have to ask you this since we're so excited to have had the opportunity to talk with you, but this was an internal debate here.

Um, our podcast, as you know, is called The Watch. and I just have to be sure that you didn't think you were coming on to a fan podcast devoted to your 2012 film The Watch. Is that where you were prepared to talk about? When I saw it in the podcast listening, I thought, you know, the listings, I was like, oh my God, the Watch,

finally it's found its audience. Still waiting for it to find its audience. You know, that movie was not originally called The Watch. I don't know if you're aware of that. No, I remember it was Neighborhood Watch, right? It was Neighborhood Watch. And then all of a sudden, Neighborhood Watch, you know, became a thing you couldn't say because of the Trayvon Martin incident. And it was just like, it just was a decision they made.

And it's like, wow, that's crazy. So, yeah, we did not name it after. I know your podcast is not named after our movie. So maybe it might be worth starting up a sub-bodcast. Weirdly, our podcast was also originally Neighborhood Watch, but then Chris and I moved farther apart from each other. Yes, that's right. But were you prepared in a pinch to discuss, like, the future dynamics of, like, Evan and Jamarcus's relationship.

Like, were you ready? Yeah. Never watched Expanded Universe is sitting right there. That's good IP. I'm saying, so obviously you're about to launch the series, and thank you for talking to us about it. But when you are ready to consider the expanded the Watch universe and the ways there could be overlaps between, I'll say it again,

your 2012 film and this podcast, we are available to you. We just want to make that clear. All right. I'll get a Kiva in touch with you guys for make it happen. Thanks so much for spending time with us today, Ben. Really, I'm really, show is great and thanks so much for talking to us. Thank you. I enjoy you guys.

I like listening to the podcast, so thanks, guys. Take care, man. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Oxygen Up and Vanished. Payne Lindsay's hit True Crime podcast Up and Vanished comes to life in a one-night special TV event on oxygen. Two years ago, Payne began exploring the shocking disappearance of a young school teacher and former beauty queen named Tara Grinstead, who vanished over a decade earlier. Pain is still at work, searching for the truth,

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