The Watch - ‘Better Call Saul’ Is the Best Kind of Fan Service, Plus the Brilliance of ‘Ugly Delicious’ Season 2 | The Watch

Episode Date: March 13, 2020

‘Ugly Delicious’ starts off Season 2 by showing a softer side of celebrity chef Dave Chang, and in the process makes revelatory food television (11:01). ‘Better Call Saul’ Episode 4 is an episode best appreciated by a binge watch (19:02). Plus: an interview with the set designer for ‘Briarpatch,’ Richard Bloom (30:34). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Richard Bloom Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, this is Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Make sure to check out the latest edition to the Ringer lineup, Music Exists. Each week, Chris Ryan and Chuck Closterman ask and answer questions about their love of music while exploring the role of concerts, locations, fandom, criticism, genre, lyrics, and much, much more. You can listen to new episodes of Music Exists and follow along every week for free on Spotify. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Now.

Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in my house. It's Andy Green World! Well, Desperate Times call for desperate measures. This is a choice by us. This is The Watch, Extreme Home Edition. Yeah.

We are recording this in my home today. Obviously, like much of the country or many people in the country, I am WFH today. Yeah. Andy is WFH every day. No, I'm WTF. right now. But, you know, there's still tons of TV to talk about, even though we were living in some pretty crazy times, obviously. Yeah, I finished a book the other day, and I reached for the next, like I have a little pile, a stack on my night table, some stuff that I picked up,

but I wanted to read. And it was Station 11, which I believe is about a worldwide viral pandemic. I put it back down. Do you find yourself, so you don't want to be, because we did the contagion rewatchables last week. Which is so wild to me. And I didn't, you know, when I, I mean, that movie is incredible, but when I started watching it, I was like, oh, this is really not what I want to be watching. Chris, I think the people who listen to this podcast regularly know the baseline with me. I mean, they think of me as a pretty risk-taking guy. I mean, I wrote a horse recently. Yeah, that's true. Within the last three to nine months, I was atop a horse. Yeah. So I'm willing to take measured risks.

I would not watch that movie again if you paid me $10,000. But do you, so when times, I mean, obviously there's not a lot of times like these, but when you confront like real world circumstances, do you look for culture and art that is about that real world, is about that kind of situation, or do you want to escape? Do you want to go the other way? I struggle with the real world full time. You know, I know.

So I am absolutely a million percent the other way. And honestly, as I was heading over the year, and we don't want to make light of anything. This is an extremely serious situation. Yeah. And, you know, our thoughts are with everyone in the world, literally. Yes. Going through this together.

And hopefully that solidarity can translate into some effective action on the part of all societies on this planet. But as I was driving over here, that's your political platform. That's my platform. Okay. My platform is Purell 2020. Yeah. Let's just get this shit clean. I was like, well, the only silver lining is, you know, I could really potentially have a couple hours over the next few days to catch up on Kirby Enthusiasm's resurgent tenth season.

Sure. You guys haven't watched the Hammap yet? No, I just want to thank whoever that was on Twitter that flagged the episode the minute it went up as a boon to my household. I really appreciated that. So, no, I don't want to know anything about fiction at this. I mean, anything about the reality at this moment. I want fiction to take me away from it. You're the opposite.

You watch that movie and you just continued on. Yeah, I don't think it's, what's strange for me is, I'll tell you, you know, I just read this book, this novel by Dennis Johnson called The Stars at Noon. And I think I came across that. I'm a huge Dennis Johnson fan. He obviously wrote Jesus' son. Tree of Smoke is one of my favorite novels. But I, you know, randomly came across an article on deadline a couple of weeks ago that

Stars at Noon was going to be Claire Denise next film. Cool. It's going to start Robert Pattinson and Margaret Quali. And I was like, yeah, I've never read stars at noon. I'll check that out. And it's set in 1984 in Nicaragua. It's about an American woman who's down there who is kind of a quasi-journalist, slumming it kind of around Managua.

And she meets a guy who may or may not be a British oil executive and there are spies. And it's this fever pitch, fever dream of a novel. And I was reading it. And, you know, on one hand, it is escapism. It is escapism to read something set in 1984 in general. And it has a kind of like almost, you know, almost like a romantic feel to it, even though it's like a very much apocalyptic, you know, end of the world type of story. But I found myself only thinking about what it happened since 1984 when I was reading.

Good and bad. Yeah. But like I think that it's almost impossible. It's been impossible for me since 2016 to really see things. in vacuums, no matter how hard I try. And so even if it was just about, I just want to talk or I just want to, you know, rewatch episodes of Modern Family or I just want to watch ugly delicious or I just want to watch, you know, Top Gear or something like that, you almost can't quite 90, you can't 100 percent shut out the real world. No, and nor should you. I mean, I do think that it's worth noting

that saying I'm going to escape into Larry David's neuroses for two to eight hours is quite a privilege. Sure. As is feeling like there are times in the world of relative peace and prosperity because it's relative. Yeah. So I agree with that. And I also think in that sense, historical fiction can be helpful because it reminds you that it's always in flux, that what felt like the end of the world in 1984, 1918, a year that just popped into my mind,

any year throughout history, is legitimately felt an experience that way. And so maybe, you know, there's some helpful perspective that you can put onto it and be like, boy, they felt like that was a big deal in 1984. Well, buckle up. Do you think 1984 would have been cooler with Twitter? Oh, my God.

I mean, I do think not to not to, you know, well, okay, I'll just do it. I mean, I just, is there anything Twitter makes better? Is there anything it makes better? I mean, I do think that we hopefully can all unite. I don't think it makes, I don't think right now it's helping. I think it's making things a lot worse. Sure. Um, so one of the weird things about, you know, NCAA tournaments canceled, MLB season postponed, NBA season, indefinitely postponed, Disney parks closed, gatherings over two. Two hundred and fifty, five hundred people. Fast movie bumped a year. The thing that's still ticking is TV.

Yeah. And I guess the question is, do you then continue to talk about television in the same way? Yeah, I mean, look, I also think that for whatever it's worth and for however I present, and I'm sure people, you know, who struggle picturing me on horseback are also chuckling to themselves of the thought that I was putting Larry David's neuroses as somehow a foreign land. Sure. to me. I do think we're going to be fine. I do think that there are lessons to be learned from this. And I generally have optimism about the fate of the world. I do. And so, you know, I think

it's worth continuing talking about things that matter to us. And, you know, if the worst thing that happens over these next few weeks for some people, some fortunate people, is that they can't go out, miss some events and catch up on good television or other streaming entertainment, like that's pretty much okay. And it is a boon that our ancestors that the pandemic of 1918 didn't have. Yeah. That we are connected still, that we are not, even if we're socially distancing, that we can. Tax message, yeah. Listen to podcasts, perhaps. Sure. Catch up on critically acclaimed crime thrillers on the USA network. All those hour-long prestige dramas that you had no time to watch. I mean, especially ones that recently aired their

fifth episode. I mean, halfway through the season, it's perfect morsel. It is Thursday. So it is Breyer Patch Thursday. We're going to be talking to Richard Bloom, who is our brilliant production designer about this week's episode that I hope people checked out. You can obviously check it out streaming. The ease with which I just slid from existential neuroses into marketing is, I'm a little offended, but we're out here hustling. So I hope people do check it out and listen to the conversation because for whatever it's worth, Richard is a wonderful person, an incredibly talented guy, and the production designer is one of those

jobs, kind of like the director of photography, that I think people recognize the title in the credits, but I think a lot of casual TV fans don't necessarily know the scope of that job and the responsibilities of that job and how crucial that job is for everything you see on the screen. And in some cases, the story as well. The coolest thing that's happened so far talking to all these folks who have been working on Briar Patch is getting a better understanding of how filmmaking works outside of the director's chair. So essentially, finding these people or talking to these people who have been working on this show from pretty much prior to Lilly being brought out in some cases, and then through with all these

different directors having to maintain this consistency of look, consistency of field of the show. So it's really an interesting case study in like, oh, this is how stories get told on screen. There is a large piece of this, and this is not just obviously my experience, but I think for anyone who makes TV, any showrunner, any creator, any writer, anybody who's working in this field, there's a large part of this that truly is making a wish on a coin and tossing it into a fountain or a well and hoping it comes out and comes true. And for as much as writing the pilot script that I wrote was a bet and a hope, you know, that we'd find the right actors, that we'd find the right directors, piece by piece,

those things got done. But the one thing that no one ever really questioned was, oh, will we find this town? Sure. Will we find this fictional place? They're like, well, we'll have to. And, you know, that was Richard's job. Richard went to Albuquerque.

He worked on the pilot as art director, became production designer, and then went to Albuquerque before almost anyone else and went to work finding it, you know? And that's, I just think it's cool. I mean, it's not a job I could ever do visually, but I think it's such an exciting part of, TV and filmmaking.

Yeah, so we have that conversation with Richard coming next. Do you want to talk a little bit about Saul this week? Do you want to talk a little bit? Yeah. So we have a new episode of Saul. Yeah, Namaste. It's called that fourth episode.

For what it's worth, I prefer talking about Saul with cameras. Okay. I prefer actually talking about Saul after wrestling on Monday nights. That is a well-landed blow. A suplex, if you will, which I believe is a wrestling move.

Not entirely sure. One of my favorite things, like a little, little BTS for watchheads, that when the video team has now been coming into our little studio to record us, often the devoted members of the team have to move between the two cameras. Yes. Both to like maybe adjust the one on you and then to smear Vaseline on the lens of the one on me. Well, I'm a mover. So I'm like, you need to be kind of handheld with me because I'll move forward. I'll move back. I like to kick, you know, like I lean all the way back.

That is true. And ever since we got the Joe Rogan mics in that studio, I move a lot. You need the Paul Greengrass experience. But my favorite thing was the other week, we were talking about Saul, and we were getting very impassioned, and I forget who it was, but he stepped into a trash can, like it was a Mr. Bean. Oh, yeah, Ron stepped into a trash can. Because he was going between the cameras.

Anyway, so let's build up to Saul. I feel like it's an easier segue since we were talking about, like, comfort food TV, just briefly to talk about Ugly Delicious, Episode 1. You know, you brought this up the other day. Yeah. And I thought, so obviously Dave Chang has a relationship with the Ringer. He does his podcast on the Ringer podcast network. He's sometimes seen around our offices.

So I'm, like, familiar with Dave. Like, I know him, but I don't like know him like that. So I say that to say, take my word for it when I say how Florida I was by the first episode of ugly deletions. Yeah, you weren't sure what I was talking about. Yeah, it's also just kind of like one of those things where I know about him as like the celebrity chef aspect and as like an incredible thinker and pundit on on food and culture. I thought his appearance on Bill's Pod the other day was really great where they talked a lot about what's coming next in the food industry and his talking about delivery services, especially.

It was really eye-opening. But yeah, you were you were kind of like this new season of ugly delicious. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, I will, I love, I love good food TV. I'll tune in. And it's just like a real like mallet to the feelings box right out of the gate on this. The first episode, Kids Menu, is one of the best hours of food TV ever made. It is one of the most emotional things I've ever seen on TV, certainly in the last few years. I'm really floored by it too. And just big picture for a second. And again, like, I joke about how much I love his podcast.

I do love it. I was really honored to be on it. That was the longest conversation he and I have ever had. I've been a fan of him for a long time. Oh, he canceled the shit out of me because of my eggs hottest take, by the way. That was another thing that happened. That is true. Yeah.

So I'm definitely coming from a very unbiased position. For what it's worth, everything is canceled now. So you can let that slide right off you. What's truly been amazing to me is to watch his metamorphosis. And I know that he would struggle with this comparison. But to think about him in. relation to Tony Bourdain, who was a friend and a mentor to him, is worth doing. And I think for a number of reasons. One, because the way that Dave clearly is, the way he operates, his competitiveness,

his perfectionism, we know, I think he said it, that when Tony passed, like, Dave felt pressure to fill that gap somehow, whatever that gap even was, as a cultural ambassador, as a explainer, you know, as a helper, basically. As a mentor to other restaurateurs, right? into food culture in general. He took that very seriously, even if I'm sure his own modesty would not allow him to hear it. I think he's done an incredible job.

And part of that is because, for all their differences, both of these figures matured in the public eye. And obviously, Tony's journey from bad boy of the kitchen in the late 90s into the beautiful ambassador that he became was a longer story, maybe had more extreme edges to it.

But I think that, that Dave's journey to what he's doing now, which is being so open, wildly open, frankly, in a way that I think is quite moving and meaningful to people with mental health struggles in any industry, but also just people who are adults. So to see a professional person, I mean, in any field, it would be like, how does becoming a parent change you creatively, financially, professionally, as he does in this first hour, was really staggering, you know, and really, and really special.

And there are the little things in this episode that I just can't get over. Like, also, again, his wife, Grace's honesty and willingness to participate in this is something that's incredible. Sure. His mother and his family's willingness to be a part of it. But like when Grace goes to the sushi bar

to talk about what you are and you aren't allowed to eat as a pregnant woman, and again, just Dave, he doesn't, no one, he's the, it's his show. So if he had said, I want to be in that interview too, people would understand. But again, where he is in his life to be like, shouldn't be there for that. Yeah. It's these little things. And the season as a whole, you know,

it's just, it's a new kind of food TV where he's just really, all right, this is the end of my monologue, I promise. But for however many years on Food Network, every chef, whether they were ones who I really admired or ones who I thought were a little bit, whatever, they all say in various ways of saying it that the secret ingredient is love. I know, yeah. And that's some bullshit. Yeah. Except when it's not. Because truly, especially in this era of, you know, instant gratification and instant downloads and remote teleconferencing or whatever we're doing right now, food really is probably the most direct way to get what's inside of your heart, memory, and collective soul to someone else.

Yeah, I mean, I think, not to repudiate that, but I would, yeah, I know that when Sandra Lee or whatever stands over, like, her stuff, she's like, it's all about love. And I've heard, like you, chefs that I really adore say the same thing. But what Dave does is the same thing that Bornain. did do, which is they look at food as a language. And they look at all of these things that mean so much to people like writing and like film and food and music as these connective things that tie us together. You know, in a world where we're increasingly, those ties are getting frayed, the way you communicate with your mother through food, the way you communicate

with your unborn child by showing Nick Kroll how you're going to make mashed up is a language. It's a language that you don't know how to speak yet. And I just thought it was such a moving first episode of this season to show it in all these different ways and also still be really fleet-footed, entertaining, multi-layered episode of television. Fun. A lot of celebrities and cooks and people, you know, whether it's Eduardo Jordan, who's not famous, but is this great chef in Seattle or Tom Colicchio, who is very famous for Nick Kroll. A lot of fun faces show up. But I think to that point, it is a language. It's also something that Chang and Bourdain had in common. It's also a trade. It's a craft. It's hard. It's repetition. It's work.

It's business. It's all of that. But there are still new ways to do this. And I feel like they found he and Dave and Morgan Neville, who is a collaborator on the show and a documentarian. I think they found a new way to do this. It feels very familiar, but it feels very fresh and very of the moment. It also feels full of possibilities. I think there are four episodes in this season. I think there are four episodes in this season, but the show can now clearly be anything. Sure. It is not tied to anything. It's just limited by the amount of cuisines in the world, which is unlimited, and it's tied

to wherever his personal muse is taking him at any given point. I just find it thrilling, and I love watching it, and I bet I'm not alone that those four hours will be of comfort over the next few days and weeks. Yeah. You want to talk about Saul? Let's talk about Saul. Another really good episode. I thought three was astonishing.

So I think that there was absolutely nothing wrong with four. I felt like it was obviously setting up a couple of more things. The thing I think it was setting up was this idea that Saul has now kind of separated from the host and is now not Jimmy anymore. And that conversation with Howard at lunch that Saul has with Howard. It was a great scene. Great scene, but is obviously very tied up in, what should I call you? Who is Saul?

Who is Saul? What does he stand for? And then the episode ends with Kim kind of saying, I need, I need, well, it rounds in towards the end with Kim sort of saying, I need Saul Goodman on this. That moment is like the moment in one of the Jos Weeden Avengers movies that I don't remember when. There's like two. when that's helping me, but not enough, not as much as you may think. Isn't it in one of those movies where Scarlet,

not Scarlet Witch, where Black Widow is like to Bruce Banner, like, I need, be the Hulk. I need the big green guy. Yeah, yeah. I need him now. I mean, that was that moment. Obviously, you and I always rhapsodize about what sets the show apart and the writing and the way it's structured.

And this is definitely one of those episodes that, is probably best appreciated on a binge because this isn't episode three. Sure. This isn't, you know, and I see that there's one coming up called Bagman that's directed by Vince Gilligan that I just like have my eye on. I feel like that we should circle that one. Yeah. They're going to be big ones.

Yeah. Go on back over for that one. This is a connect. Thanks. Is the invitation still on? This is a connective tissue one. Nothing wrong with that. But it also allows you to kind of sit back and appreciate certain things that they do.

And the more obvious example would be. So, an episode where Jimmy, or now Saul, acts out his aggression and his resentment in a very kind of pettier childish way by throwing bowling balls at Howard's car. Right. Okay. The episode could have ended with that. We would have understood it. You know, we also saw last week that he's pretty into throwing stuff again, or again, for the first time. Sure.

But because this is better call Saul, the cold open is him walking through the pawn shop, weighing stuff, thinking about it, trying stuff out because it's always cause and effect. effect on these shows, right? I was thinking of that when I was thinking about that great lunch scene with Howard and Patrick Fabian is such an odd, interesting performer. I really like having him on the show. The way they even shoot that guy waist up in suits where like everything is super broad and the tie. The tie clip underneath. Yeah, exactly. It's just like everything is like wide and like indulgent. Yeah. Because he can take either way he takes up space. But in that moment, you know, it's the kind of thing where the show just effortlessly earns stuff that could feel like shoe leather in any other show.

And what I mean by that is in every show that you're building or writing in a writer's room, like the scene where one character asks another, tell me about who you are. I mean, you'd almost have to hide it, right? You have to bury it or obscure it or break it up among five or six characters or put it into metaphor. But because they always plan in a very meticulous way, they earned a scene where one character sits across from the main character and literally says, tell me who you are. Yeah.

What does that mean? Right. And it in no way feels handholdy or overly basil expositiony, right? It's just, that's where these people are in their journey with each other and with a larger world. And I, it's, it's worth not blowing past that moment. It's awesome. No, no at all.

Do you have any? No Lalo this episode, though. So I've got a ding at a few points. So do you think that Mike's in Mexico? Seems like it. Yeah. I mean, you would know greater Albuquerque better than I do. Is there a location?

I can promise you they film that in Greeter Albuquerque. Because I can speak to text credits and things like that. Did you see Stranger Things who's going to shoot in Albuquerque? Dude, Tamalewood is happening. Yeah. It's a real thing. Brian Garrity, who's so good on Briar Patch, just, he's been texting me. He's back there shooting already.

Oh, really? And he's just texting me, like, short videos of, like, approaching Albuquerque Studios. Is that where they shoot Chicago Fire and Chicago PD? Chicago Men. It's easier. It's easier now. Tax credits. It's the spot, man.

That's where everybody's going. They don't call me Dick Wolf because I pay taxes. You know what I mean? Okay. I mean, like, I don't have a ton of more to say about that better call song. I'm trying to think if there was any other elements. I also along the same lines of the opening sequence when Jimmy is, when Jimmy is shopping, I thought that the Gus cleaning the fryer scene.

That's great. I was like, don't kill Lyle, man. Poor Lyle. Yeah. Come on, Lyle. I mean, it's just like, the other thing about a scene like that, and this is just a, you know, we're just a couple of guys sitting in one of the guys' house while it rains outside. You also feel, I think it's contagious as a bad word these days.

I just mean, it's just so evident that the writers and particularly the writers who are a part of Breaking Bad. And maybe actually I'm wrong about that. Maybe it's the writers who weren't also getting a chance to flex and play with character traits that defined legendary TV characters. So everything that Giancarlo Esposito is doing in that scene, it's just the best version of Gus Fring. We just never saw him do it before. And there's a lot of that in the Hank and Gomi stuff too, which is actually kind of leaning in to the broader buddy cop stuff that wasn't necessarily, at least in my memory. It's the best kind of fan service because it's actually letting us see these people in slightly different lights.

Yeah, because, again, I don't, I've not done a Breaking Battery Watch, and apparently my memory of that show and this show is a little bit suspect at this moment. But at least in my memory, their buddy act wasn't as pronounced at the start. I think that they were also subject to the same arc of the show itself, which started out a little bit hamier in places. You know what I mean? And I think that Hank and Gomi were a little bit more, not Keystone Cops, but I think that they really played. up the like the banter and stuff like that. In Breaking Bad they did? In Breaking Bad, yeah. So I remember. No, wait. I was saying the opposite. I was saying I don't remember. What I don't remember. Oh, is how much of that. I knew they busted each other's balls. I knew they busted

each other. I knew that happened. But I guess I don't remember. And maybe it's because the focus just wasn't on them. So they were providing, they were playing a different role. Sure. I think that they're playing at least straight from jump here. The like Gus Fring in the friar scene, the best case versions of themselves, the one that there's sort of this Well, it's kind of the cool thing, right? You get to go back. Yeah, it's what happens in sequels, too. I know, but they're so smart because rather than just be like, let's just have these guys show up and do the old version of them, they're like, what would these guys have been like years before they knew Walter was Walter? Yes.

They would have looked older, apparently. Yes, everybody looks older. That is an interesting little wrinkle, but that's Albuquerque for you. It's a very, very punishing sun. Okay, we can wrap it up there. We'll take a quick break, and then we'll be back. Before we take a break, can we just say that though the universe is challenging all of us, It is also giving us because there was a new killer single today featuring Lindsay Buckingham.

It's pretty good. It's really good. Who produced that? So two guys who I'd never heard of but did the whole album but have worked on a bunch of stuff. It was pretty cool, including Casey Musgraves, which seems like a smart hookup. Yeah. And I was reading their credits. They seemed like they did a good job.

And it's also interesting that Brandon Flowers in the press release was basically like, I think we all were having a laugh for that last record. let's get back to business. That's good. Which I appreciate. That's also a big Bono. We've come to save rock. Yeah, exactly. We're back.

I also think that, and again, I don't, I mean, we've had them on the podcast a couple times, and we've been very nice personally.

We don't actually know them personally. It's a big time for them because Ozark's almost back. They love that too? Remember the drummer and I were like, Ozark is this shit? Oh, Vinoch.

He loved that. Yeah. I'm sorry, because Brandon and I were just locking eyes and talking about Bruce Hornsby. Sure. he kind of get the feeling, at least from the way that branded talks in this press release for this new record, which is coming out in a couple months and about this song and everything, that this, there's no more solo branded flowers.

Like basically, like this was his... He's assimilating it into the Killers brand. This is the solo stuff now, and now they can keep touring arenas playing these types of songs with, you know, bigger production and with Lindsay Buckingham guitar solos, which is pretty much all I need to get through at least day one of where we currently are. Do you like the new hym song? Do I like the new hym song? Do you live in Los Angeles in 2020? I love the new hym song so much. It's really good live.

I saw them on Fallon. Yeah. I just love to fire up Fallon at night. Do you fire up Fallon YouTube clips? I did. Okay, boomer. Okay. Look, let's not turn on each other just yet.

No, no, that's going to come in the weeks ahead. I mean, I'm just throwing this at you. I'm pitching it live to you in your own living. room. Rewatchable's Jimmy Fallon Tonight Show, just every episode you and me. Isn't that what Peacock's going to be? If people were interested, we should probably, we could probably throw together a little entertainment survival at home kit.

Sure. Just like, here's a playlist of some songs. Here's a playlist for streaming services that we've been enjoying. What are you going to watch? What are you going to watch this weekend? I mean, I didn't finish the ugly delicious season. And sweet, sweet, sweet baby, top. Chef. All-Stars LA is coming from me next week. And you got to catch up on curb. Very excited to

catch up on curb. Are you going to watch Westworld on Sunday? Uh-huh. Do I have to for this podcast? For this podcast, you have to watch the first one. I do? Yes. Wow. Just one. All right. You know what I want to catch up on? You're such an AI hater. Famously. Oh, and Devs is on tonight. New Devs, and we'll talk about that on Monday. I want to check out dispatches from elsewhere. Yeah. Both because Eva Anderson worked on it and Andre 3000 is on it and it filmed in Great City of Philadelphia. That's where I'm at. Okay.

Now we're going to talk to Richard Bloom about episode five of Briar Patch, which people, please go watch it. Are you going to join me on the zero zero zero run? Oh, yes. Someone posted online that it was just like a pure blast of uncut freeze to the cerebellum. Was that you? Nope. That wasn't even one of my burners.

Remind people where they can watch zero zero zero. That's on Amazon. It's a, it comes. from, I think we talked about this a little bit, but it stars Andre Reisborough, Dane Dahan, Gabriel Byrne. The first few episodes were directed by Stefano Solimo, who directed Sicario de Saldado, and then Mauricio Katz, is the sort of showrunner. A great guy, writer, showrunner, worked on The Bridge. Nice. Which I'm pleased to say has a great, like, coaching tree. Yeah, right, the pop coaching tree.

Coach Elwood Reed. A lot of people came out of that show. Okay, so we have a ton of stuff to watch. Yeah. And we have plenty of time to do it. everybody in all seriousness, we love you guys. Stay home. Socially distance yourselves. Stay safe. Look after each other. Yeah, and we'll be back on Monday.

Sounds good. It's Briar Patch Thursdays. We're going. Let's do it. We're already going. Greenwald, I love this shirt on you. This is not part of the podcast. Maybe it is.

Thanks, man. This is like, what would you call that color? Orange? No. Pumpkin. What would you call it? Actually, Richard. Do you know what Richard?

Old brick. Do you know what Richard taught me? The phrase color story. Oh, yeah. That's true. That is my color story right now. Right now, you're looking pretty autumn, actually, but which, you know, spring is here. So I'm doing it wrong.

Briar Patchsters, here we are. Andy, wanted to introduce our guest. I am so happy to be joined by the absolutely brilliant production designer of Briar Patch Season 1, Richard Bloom. Oh, I blush. Richard, we're so happy to see you. That's great to be here. You've already negged my color story. Sorry about that.

But that's what I look to you for. And sometimes reinforcement. Also, I should say, Richard, who's joining. us, worked on the pilot as well. He's one of the few people who's able to carry over. Richard was the art director on the pilot and was responsible for so much that we love so much, including the Mo Fixen's barbecue sign. Yes, and with a talented graphic designer who was L.A. based, who worked on that. But it was great. Yeah, it was great being on the pilot with Brandon Tonner Connolly.

They're a production designer on the pilot who did a great job and sort of set the tone. Right. And then it was so exciting that Richard was able to move with us because he had so many ideas. And also had such a head start on what we were going to be doing and building. Richard, we've done a couple of these episodes, and I keep skipping to, like, my 13th question first, where I'm like, tell me about the themes of this episode. But I think it would help for our listeners to know what you do both, like, on a day-to-day basis on set, but also, like, what you do in, like, a big tent way. This is so, this is why I think these, hopefully people are enjoying listening to these,

because, you know, as a veteran showrunner, I've always known what a production designer did and how key and crucial it was to anything. But for those who don't, because you know me. Well. You're also allowed to drag me on this. Zach Ellar already did. So production designer starts about 10 weeks out on a TV show like this, and it was good because I hit the ground running in Albuquerque while the writer's room was just going.

And I think I was the first creative department had to get there and met up with Dennis Muscarry, our location manager. And I knew the thing about television, having done a couple of seasons as an art director, it's really just like it's a marathon of basically sprinting. Like once you get going, you know it can't stop. So even though you're 10 weeks out, there's like time is of the essence from day one. Really? Okay. Yeah.

That's something you taught me. I had no idea. Well, because we knew we had one stage and I wanted to get the set building right away. I was lucky enough to bring an art director from Los Angeles, Callie, Andriatus. And we had our same construction team back from the place. pilot. So they were familiar with it, and we knew we were going to build the hallway. We knew we were going to build the hotel room. So right away, we jumped into those set designs. And I knew that I wanted to take some liberties with what we shot. On the pilot, we only shot locations. We didn't have the

opportunity to build anything. We built elements in locations, but we didn't build an actual set on a stage. It's just generally. I don't know if there's other studios do it differently, but we weren't able to. We didn't have stage space. It was all location. Avatar, for instance, may do it differently. Maybe Avatar 4 and 5, but probably the original one. I think was really just site-specific. And I was actually, when I came on, I thought that we were going to be doing some reshoots. So I was never beholden to the idea of what that hallway was. We encouraged a little.

I mean, we had meetings about it, like how far away do we want to go? Reshooting parts of the pilot. Well, I think basically, I mean, just starting from the most basic point, like, the hallway is crucial to the story. And the hallway is certainly crucial to the pilot. We love shooting in the hotel where we shot the pilot. We found the story there. We created the vibe and what it was supposed to feel like. But there were also things that we couldn't change.

Like there were glowing yellow tables in the hallway. We didn't love those. And so the question is when we're building it, obviously you're building it for efficiency and you're building it wider so cameras can move around your wilding walls. It's a term I learned from Richard. So you can remove things and put cameras through them, et cetera. But are you going to build exactly what you've already established?

Or are you going to take the opportunity to have it be slightly different and hope that audiences are willing to. And one reason that I really wanted to change it up a little bit is because I knew we weren't going to be going down to the lobby very often because it was very expensive to shoot in that hotel. I knew we were going back for episode two and three, the block that Steven shot, and we might get to go there towards the end of the season.

But what we wanted to do is every time we didn't. Every time we went back into the hallway, I wanted to evoke the sense of that lobby. Yes. Because that's really like the heart of the old part of San Bonafacio. used to say Sanvana Fasio. He said Fisio too. Yeah, I said it all differently.

One fun thing that convinced me I had made up the right name for the town was that no one could say it. Right. It was just like, just killing it. But so, and I knew I wanted to, because it is sort of a surreal moment for Allegra in that hallway, I wanted to like make it taller and skinnier and have the doors, you know, I wanted to feel more surreal for her because, you know, there's a tiger in it. Sure. And so we planned that. So right out of the gate, 10 weeks out, I know I'm jumping into this. those set designs, but it's a little terrifying because I didn't have, I don't think we'd picked,

I don't think you had picked a single director yet when I had started, or maybe you had. We had been interviewing directors, but we didn't know who's going to be doing what. Talk to anyone. So I'm making these choices now on behalf of like a whole season, not knowing how people are going to shoot it. So we're trying to protect ourselves from like, well, okay, if they want to do a tracking shot down the hallway with all the ceilings out. So we're trying to wild everything, which means you can easily remove it.

And we're also jumping into picking locations. And having done some television, I knew we weren't going to start an AD where you get the one-line schedule and you get really a board for it until about four weeks out. So I wanted to have choices and then backup choices and backup choices. Just in case a director was like, hey, I've decided I want to go. Well, and I don't know if you've gotten a chance to read all the scripts. They're very dense. There's a lot of company moves. I page through them.

Yeah. We shoot them in eight days. So because of that, doing the math, I was like, there's going to be multiple company moves. per day. And so that means if you're in one location in the morning, the entire company, all the trucks, everything has to move to a different location. Not easy. Nobody likes it. It adds time. It adds money. Yeah. So one thing I was trying to do that when you were writing. It's not that I didn't know. I have just disdain for it. It's like the art comes first. No, I mean, I did not. And, you know, I was encouraged to write the quote unquote,

the best version of the script we could. And then it fell to really talented, really responsible people who I meant you were like exterior middle earth Kind of where's Avatar said Navi yeah But people like Richard people like our CoEP Eric Crary Who's amazing yeah You know even Zach's point

It's out too like crunching this stuff And helping finding locations that are near each other In a way that I didn't even realize would be helpful Right and I had never worked with any of those guys So I was super nervous You know they didn't show up till about I was there for about six weeks And at that point I think two weeks in

from being there at eight weeks out when Callie showed up. I had a big presentation for Andy just over digitally where I tried to, I had, you'd been great about giving me outlines and I kind of knew what was coming and I knew how big it was going to get. So I was trying to bang out as many options and kind of give him a sense of the whole season as soon as possible. Go ahead. And in fact, like, it turns out, you know, with episode five, which we can get into in a second,

but some of the houses were some of the trickiest things to, to, to, secure. Okay. Because we knew we knew we were going to need, you know, we knew we were going to need the slaughterhouse and we knew we were going to need some of the big locations, which there were the church and cemetery. Yeah, and the church and cemetery, things coming in later episodes, I had quickly, like, been, been able to, I don't want to give away too much. Well, no, but there are examples of things where we were like, we need Felicity's secret apartment and it should be over a tamale shop. And so Richard knew, told, I mean, you knew, you identified this and suggested it that we build the inside of it on our stage, which we did.

Right. But then what are we going to do exterior? For instance, so we looked at a bunch of different types of restaurants where we could build an exterior up to it. And then at some point, we got fixated on the A-frame idea. And I actually ended up, that was one of the few locations that Dennis didn't bring to me. I actually found that on Yelp. I started looking on Yelp and just kind of going around. What were your search terms? I was looking for a Mexican restaurant. He was hungry. It was all starts there.

And then when we found it, you know, it was on a pretty busy street. So we knew there was going to be some logistical issues. with it and the backside, but the backside really lent itself to building that staircase in a false door. So none of that was there. He found an A-frame restaurant that had a secret back. It just existed, and it was just one of these little happy accidents. But I also want to talk about just briefly like the incredible additive nature of working with Richard where, so I think the one of my favorite scenes that's aired so far is when we meet Mel Rodriguez's character, the mayor, Big Tony, and he's golfing in episode three. More my favorite scenes as well. And he drinks and it with some.

because of the golf. Yes. But also there's beer and other fun things. And Kim Dickens. It's a great, it's a great scene. It's important for me that golf is represented on television. I know. And as everyone knows, I consulted with you heavily about that scene.

So as scripted, I think he was initially on the top of a parking garage at the edge of town. We had this idea. Again, this is the kind of stuff that writers do that I think drive production people crazy, where I was like, we'll just find a building on where Albuquerque ends and the desert begins. Oh, yeah. That's like that overhead shot of. like Palm Springs and it's like the desert keeps creeping in. Because flying in, you kind of think you see that. You and me, man. We're on the same page. So unfortunately, that page had to be removed from the script

because that doesn't exist. But also it was small-minded thinking. I was like he's on the roof of a building. Richard, driving around with Dennis and looking and looking, found this hill. Sure. Yeah, we actually found, we did find one where we could be on a roof on an Indian reservation that I was really, really psyched about. But ultimately, because of the way things happened, and we knew that the teaser with Lalo and the car where they found the cocaine. He was marijuana, Richard. Oh, right. The cocaine we didn't find.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Anyway, that scene we found close by, what are they? Radio towers. No, the towers, the electrical towers. And so I was like, okay, and then within a pod, we were just driving by, and I was like, what about that hill right there where that Doppler radar tower is that looks like a giant golf ball?

Yeah. And luckily it was also next to. a composting or trash facility. Yeah, it's also crazy windy. And it was also crazy windy. We scouted it and it was like the perfect day. And then I took the director back and it was Stephen and it was like another perfect day. And then it was a windy day when we shot it.

So such as Albuquerque. But it looks great. And there are other examples like that. I mean, and we can talk about this as we get more specifically into the episode. But what's insane about Richard's job is all the work that he did. It was just like I can't imagine the level of preparation in detail. And it was so appreciated. in such beautiful work, and then it never stops

because then once we start shooting, he's scouting, he's prepping, they're dressing sets for episodes in advance and finding new locations and moving locations. Yeah, I mean, that's probably the most chaotic part about a TV show like this, because at any given moment, I'm prepping an episode,

finding locations for an episode that were two episodes away, I'm prepping with a director who's come in who doesn't know the show, they've seen the pilot, they've talked to Andy, but they need to get into all the spaces. Sure. And we're opening two to three sets a day. Between the two, of you, you know, because we talked to Zach last week, the director of photography on the show, and I think that, you know, obviously, I've spoken with guys who do his job before, and it sounds

like the way that someone in Andy's position or a director would talk to Zach is like, I kind of wanted to be like Barton Fink, or I wanted to feel a little bit Coen's brother's-e, or I wanted to feel a little bit like a Catherine Bigelow running shot, and can you give me that what I'm seeing in my head? How different is the vocabulary that you're dealing with in terms of, like, how much Is it just practical? How much of it is like, well, this is what we have. And so this is what I can make out of the space that we have found? I think it's both.

I mean, when you're building a set, the sky's the limit, you know? And so we built the whole police station. And I found that location early because I knew that was going to come up fast and we were going to need to. You should be specific. Because the police station that we are inside of in episode four where Chief Ritech gives her toast to Felicity is built. But it was built to model an external location that Richard found for the press conference. Yes, which is one of the first. first things I wanted to lock into, and taking advantage of the aspect ratio, I was looking for

sort of like things that were long and flat. And that also, on a bigger scale, that was like a mid-century building with a really cool window detail that I knew we would translate to a stage set really well. So it's a mixture of those things. I mean, the very first thing I do is like trying, you go off the pages and you go off the conversations that we've had. And, you know, from there, I want to come back with make it better, bigger. ideas. Like one thing, I think on one of the very first weekends I went out, I scouted a bowling alley that I was like, I wanted to end up with.

I was like, Andy, you got to see this. You got to write something for it. Was it just like, hey, I saw a bowling alley? It was trapped in time. I mean, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. Is that where Peter Stormar once up? Yes. So this is, that entire scene, one of my favorites from the season, came from Richard. Because Richard and Dennis were out, they were scouting this town in Belen, which is about

40 miles south of Albuquerque. Love going south. We spent a lot of time there. And we had scouted it. a little bit for the pilot, just exteriors didn't use it, and then on this sort of dusty main drag, there's a bowling alley that had been shut down in the 90s and maintained, not maintained, but just untouched. Like, people score still on the wall. I mean, it was...

Any janitorial services being applied, or... No. In fact, like, bowling balls inside had actually split open from the heat. The newer bowling balls aren't made, like, the older bowling balls. Usually that happens to me, but it's just because I'm throwing strikes. It was pretty amazing. chasing 200. And that kind of thing was super exciting that is send it back to Andy and the writers and for them

to get excited about what we were offering. And so this is actually why episode five is probably is a great one to have Richard here to talk about because I've said before on the podcast and in other interviews, like one of the opportunities or challenges depending of going from pilot to series was opening up the world and showing the town and creating a place that doesn't exist. Episode five, we identified early as kind of the procedurally episode. It's kind of a detective episode. It's Allegra and Sindh going from point to point

trying to figure something out. And so if you are doing something where you're trying to communicate plot, which can be good or can feel a little bit rowed, you want the locations to feel special. You want the places she goes and the people that she interacts with

to be memorable for reasons other than the information, the expository information that they're delivering. And so I think it was early in the outline. I just felt like there was something missing. They went to the Chinese restaurant and the Chinese restaurant with the nacho bar was crucial. Is that based on a real establishment?

I think, I mean, we wanted to... Or your ideal establishment. Well, one of the things we wanted to do with this episode was show the part of town that the richer people would have called the wrong part of... Packing town, the wrong side of the tracks. Behind God's back is the phrase that gets used in the show. And we wanted to try to also subtly,

with whatever real estate we had, pay tribute to the immigrants that were making this town and were just adapting, right? And so Chinese restaurants are in every town in America, and I always have been, and they've adapted the cuisine to suit the place. So we wanted to show a Chinese restaurant, and maybe they have a nacho bar also, which led to the most important detail for me, which is an egg roll being dipped in queso, which Zach Ellar is still mad that I put in the show. Did you eat that? Personally? Have you ever eaten it?

No. Okay. No. You know, I do Pilates, man. This body's a temple. I would do it. I just have never had the opportunity. Well, come to Albuquerque.

We'll make that happen for you. But then we want to do it. But then we wanted also this feeling that there was a line that I think got cut, a singe line where he's like, this neighborhood is like an onion, where if you just started peeling it and unpealing it, you would have signed more and more things. So I think the original idea was I came into the writer's room and was like, so they're in the Chinese restaurant,

and then Allegra leads singed down a back staircase, and there's a fat German in the basement. Ended up not fat. Ended up not German, although Swedish actor. But it ended up not even being in the basement because that was around the point when Richard said, look at this beautiful set, location, why don't you do something? I was like, well, this could work.

I wanted the idea of someone who had his finger on the pulse of the bad side of the town, who knew what was going on and like people were running in and out with running numbers and just that there was a robust criminal enterprise that was being disrupted by whatever else was disrupting the town or whatever else was disrupting packing town. And also someone who Allegra had a history with. And also, there's a weird history of German people, not weird, but there's an interesting history of German people in Texas. And I was thinking also with the big fat.

Shiner. The big doctor. Yeah, Shiner. All the beer making. It's a very limited understanding of Texas. I'm thirsty for beer. But I was also kind of tribute to the doctor in the beginning of Paris, Texas. Sure.

Speaking of Richards here, I said to him, I wanted a logo that looked like the red underlined font of the opening of Paris, Texas. And Richard brought us our beautiful logo from that. So all of it came from a design. It was this, it's the beautiful thing that can happen where we had a desire to tell a certain kind of story. And Richard gave us the canvas in which to tell it. And then, and then Zach knew how to light it and shoot it. And we end up with a totally beautiful bizarre scene with Peter Stormair in it, which I still kind of can't believe. I want to ask about Stormair, but I want to ask about five a little bit more generally first.

Because one of the things that I noticed was that this is the episode where it's really firmly established that this town is, just slightly out of time. Like, it's like, not out of time. Like, like, it's just, it just feels like a little bit lost in, in, in the chronology of the world where, you know, from the evening edition of newspapers to iPod minis to just like a lot of this. That is a. A shuffle. Was that a shuffle?

No. What was it? Oh, is it a zoon? Are we allowed to say it? Yeah. Yes. They're only zunes. We only use zunes in this town.

And it was the funniest thing to those, those of us in the writer's room. We'll see how it translates to America. But boy, that made us laugh. Zoom is probably trending as we speak. I hope so. For what it's worth, to my good friends and they're even better attorneys at the Microsoft Corporation, at no point do we say that word? At no point do we showcase anything copyrighted.

I didn't even realize it. Oh, that could be litigious? I don't know. I mean, we're not allowed to use a product if you identify the product. I see. You know what I mean? Okay. So there is an MP3 player.

Not made by Apple. I discontinued. Anyway, was that something that you guys were consciously going for? I think so. Yeah, I mean, from the pilot, we knew the hotel, which is, you know, the old school money, was built in the 30s. So in my mind, the town had had a few booms. It was the 30s. There was another boom maybe in the 50s and 60s where a lot of the residential that you see and also the police station was built.

And then maybe kitchens were remodeled in the 80s and the 90s. You know, maybe there was a little bit of money. and now it's kind of a little bit more stuck in time. That's so cool. There's not the resources. Which is also why we go to multiple places that are, you know, dilapidated. Right. And also it was a rule for like cars.

We would have to, like there was, I'm thinking about a moment we were shooting something in nine, and we did one take of it. Then we had to stop and have a Prius moved. Oh, yeah. An extra, I'd put parked a car there. I'm just like, there are no hybrids in this town. Right. There are no.

But it was important. It was a network note early. Like, wait, when is this? This isn't a period piece. And it's pretty clear that it's not. They're MP3 players. There are smartphones. There are many, many drones.

Sure. But it's a little bit wobbly and unstuck. There are newspapers, an old media has an outsized influence. Were there any rules to it, aside from no Priuses? Well, I had tried to eliminate from the pilot. I tried to eliminate and trying to find color with character. So we were trying to eliminate in general the color blue to help tell the story of the heat and the hot. And we were committed to the red hallway and the, you know, the red hallway and the,

warmth. And Jake is, you know, bathed in these pastels in his house as this yellow in his car as a butter yellow. And we were trying to bring in green in life only when we were in Jake's life and then maybe Ratech's life. Gotcha. But blue obviously snuck in, which worked out to our advantage because Floyd drives the blue SUV. And actually in episode five, we go to this motel that is the Americana type motel of red, white, and blue. It became sort of its own symbol in a way. And I know the resaid the costume designer, she worked with color. We worked really well together and tried to always know what actors we were putting in which space and pick the costumes accordingly.

But you would spell out a lot of the colors in the script, even. Did you learn about that from Richard, too? Well, yes, I mean, I learned a ton. I learned the phrase color story, which I love. But for real, I mean, there was something, there was a focus and a sharp. to Richard's point of view about it that really helped sort of just whip us into shape, quite literally with episode two, to what you can do by filling the frame with something, and then also when you hold back, right?

Sure. So making Jake's home feel lush and separate from the rest of the world and what that said about both where he was and where everyone else was. And that location had a lot of tricky prerequisites because we weren't allowed to do that much to it. It's a thriving Airbnb business if anyone would like to stay in Jake's Bobby's house. Tell me about Stormer. How does he show up on the set of Pirate Patch? I actually flew into Albuquerque with him from L.A.

Did he know who you were? No. And I was a few rows back, so I actually didn't speak to him because also I wanted to give him a space. But also I was really just flabbergasted that the legendary Peter Stormair was living up to the legend by wearing spray-painted gold high tops

and carrying a tiny schoolgirl-sized Hello Kitty backpack, which he told me about in great detail. He used to do commercials in Japan in the 80s, and he feels responsible for bringing Hello Kitty to America. Did he get points on that package? Unclear. Unclear.

In between takes and the bowling alley, he did tell me many stories about working with Ingmar. Bergman. I hope so. Not clear, actually. He is a total character, you know, and this was, he likes to work, and he likes to do fun, weird, interesting things.

No take was the same. I think Rosario was, Rosario and Eddie were definitely up to it. They was like riding a rocking Bronco doing a scene with him because we'd given him this was never a problem for me. It's a lot of words. And he was just finding new pathways into each and every one of them every time,

which was a blast. And also it was just kind of fun because this is a guy who is legendary and in many people's favorite movies. And so everyone was excited to work with him. I mean, that was one of the fun things about getting these incredible legends like him and Ed Asner to be on,

or Alan Cumming to be on the show. Everyone stepped up. The actors would like step up their game. They wanted to do scenes with them. Everyone was pitching more scenes for Gunter to come back. So like Jay Ferguson wanted to do a scene with him. Right. To get him back.

So he was great. That was just one day of work in a bowling, you know, and it just used bowling alley. Is that why he only brought that small amount of luggage? I think so. He's a very soulful guy. When casting is so fluid like this and like over the course of the season, they're still,

they're still filling roles. And so you are essentially coloring in the characters and the script of the visions in your head. Does it ever not match or you're like, oh, I didn't really imagine Gunter is this guy, but like, let's work with it. I think we had a lot of meetings, and we were trying to always be on the same page. I think Colder's house was probably one of the trickier ones to crack because we lost it. We lost that location, like right at the last second. And Stephen had already boarded it all.

We already started building scenery for the house, and then the homeowner sort of held us ransom. So we moved on. So we had sort of a last minute scramble. And then the house that was ultimately was originally going to be Singe's grandma's house, where Singe lives, became Kolder's house. Because we all loved that house. And we went back, I think, on a weekend and re-looked at it. And we're like, will this work?

And that was as I feel like you all were really getting Lucretia all, like, really put together. And all of a sudden it was like, yeah, this house is going to be great. Yeah, it ended up fitting. It didn't have a yard. so we had to sod some of the front and it didn't have it didn't have a couple of other elements but I think you made some minor tweaks

to make that work Yeah and then you know then also Richard just has to roll with things like oh singe's grandmother's house is full of antique toys Right yeah that was fun What else you got for this episode? Well it was one of the hardest ones to crack

because we're trying to do something that in retrospect was maybe even too challenging which is to try to show like we're doing an investigation but doing it wrong. It's tough. I mean, I've said this from the beginning. One of the things that I found, especially in retrospect, to be the most challenging, was having a dynamic lead character who is making mistakes, you know, and because she's so heated. There's a great piece of music that John Carlo created, that we used a lot in this episode, the sort of pulsing music that we started calling seeing red, because that's when she gets really worked up. And why is she pushing so hard?

What is she not seeing? Because she's rushing to assumptions because she's trying to fill the void inside of So the A to B to C to D, all to solve a story that she believes in her head that her sister had gone bad or her sister had discovered drug smuggling or all these sort of very obvious things dovetailed with my desire to tell a story that was near the border that wasn't what you think it is. Right. And hopefully, you know, more of that will be, more of that gets revealed obviously next week. This is kind of a cliffhangery ending. Yeah, it is. But the goal was for her to totally screw up reach a point where Freddie Laffer gets badgered into a heart attack, which is taken from. the book, have some angry, inappropriate, toy-based sex with Singe, and then Felicity comes back.

Yeah. We hear Felicity's voice again. She hears what Sinj had been trying to tell her about slowing down, being more like her sister, and she remembers she missed something, which was that when she was chasing the kids, the burger place, and for those people who were listening to the great Burgers and Burgers, the Great Zootown podcast. Burgers and Burgers and Burgers is also a great podcast. That would be Brian Brown favorite podcast.

That plays a big role in the Zutown podcast. That, you know, we had created this character who was like a little punk who was drawing up all the attention and sucking up all the oxygen. Very River's Edge. Very River Phoenix. Yeah. Beautiful young actor named Ben.

Anyway, that she missed something, which was the young woman who was there, who was really more like her, who was secretly in charge. And so she goes back and she follows where she's going, and it leads her into further mystery. But all that with all the movement, you know, it was interesting to try to put,

it together. It gave us a lot of opportunity for fun, great exciting locations, back to the slaughterhouse in the daytime, Chinese rest, Chows Chowdown, Chinese restaurant, the bowling alley. It also meant that we ended up cutting a lot from this episode, unfortunately. Like, there was a lot of exposition and backstory and walk and talks, and there was a lot of stuff about Sinj's background that I wish we could have kept in. Like that his name is August Damien Sing. His grandmother was June July Sin, but also just great stuff that I, you know, was important to me to have in the show. I wish we could have done. it, stuff that came, was very room, came from the room about being the sort of inner familial stride. Like he felt isolated from his family too because he was, his parents were stressed education and he went to law school and that kept him at a distance from some of his own family and his own cousins. And so it was kind of bringing them together in a different way about their own isolation

for their families. Stuff about when Allegra moved to the town. But anyway, I'm telling you now on a podcast. I'm sure people are finding it super compelling. Yeah, it was a fun one. We're also the first of two episodes directed by a great English gentleman named Colin Buxie. Oh, yeah. Who won an Emmy for Fargo, season one. And is a delightful hang. I wish we could have... Did he do two in a row?

He did. Yeah. This was... Five and six were the nightmare block. Like, they're extremely ambitious episodes, as you'll see when you get six. And, you know, there was a lot of concern whether we could pull them off budgetarily. in addition to everything else. And so he was a pretty steady hand and a very quick hand. That's lunch. Well, I think you guys did pull him off.

Richard, thank you so much for joining us on the watch. Thank you, guys. This has been fun. Can I say one thing also about Richard while he's here, Chris, on the podcast? Richard was like Allegra Dill. Richard checked into the hotel in Albuquerque. That is true. And he never left.

And he never left. He, by choice, stayed in the beautiful Hotel Chaco for how many months total, six months? I think it was a little more than that, yeah. More than six months. Here's the thing about Richard. Everyone loves him. and rightfully so. Your humble narrator also stayed in this hotel

for large swaths of time literally haunted it like a ghost. Could have been, stayed there as a period where I was staying there for three weeks. I would walk in and say, good morning. Nothing.

Nothing from Richard? Nothing from anyone. Okay. No, yeah, I got hugs. Then one time I was talking to someone, and they were like, wait, are you, do you know Richard? Do you know Richard Bloom?

Long pause. We love Richard. Oh, this is somebody working at the hotel. The hotel and Richard had this beautiful relationship. This is true. But it is because I had ruptured my Achilles. And when I first showed up at the hotel, I was barely walking. And they really watched me.

But Richard, they loved you from the pilot. You were there for the pilot. They just love you. Yeah, I love this. Chaco. Yeah, shout out to my people. Unbelievable. Richard, thank you so much for joining us.

That's been great. Thanks, guys.