The Watch - ‘Better Call Saul’ Paces Itself. Plus, Will ‘Conversations With Friends’ Take Off Like ‘Normal People’ Did?

Episode Date: May 17, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the final episode of the first half of ‘Better Call Saul’ Season 6 (1:00) and whether the final season needed to be split into two parts (15:48). Then they talk about the first few episodes of the newest screen adaptation of a Sally Rooney book, ‘Conversations With Friends’ (25:56). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo, from the housewise to summer house and everything in between. We'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis? which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of Intersection of Intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at

the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. This podcast is just one long conversations with friends. It's Andy Greenwald! It is amazing. That is the alt name for podcasts. Conversations with Friends. Greenwald, it's a beautiful day in Los Angeles, and it's a beautiful time of year for us to start speaking in Irish accents because we are going to talk about conversations with friends, which dropped its entire season on the Hulu Broadcasting Network. Bold. Wasn't ready for that. We watched a few of those. We're going to talk about this latest Sally Rooney adaptation. You know, Andy is basically the cousin Sal up in here. He's got lots of takes on the fiction. He's got lots of takes on the adaptation. I can't wait to

talk about it, but we're also going to talk about this latest episode of Better Call Saul. Greenwald, how are you doing today? You know, I'm all about my business on Mondays. Like, there's a lot for us to talk about. You're in the office. The sun is blasting behind you and your computer screen can't keep up. So sometimes you're just shadow and sometimes I just see your beautiful face. But I think that because when we do these Monday night specials, we got to get into it, even if the episode might not demand an immediate reaction. Yeah. So I want to talk to you a little bit about this. We're talking about episode six of the sixth season of Better Call Saul. It's Axe and Grind, directed by Jean-Carlo Esposito,

notable because he is not in this episode, I don't believe. And, you know, this is coming off the back of black and blue, which I thought was fine. Both of these episodes are fine. Like bad, not even to say bad Saul. Like the Saul floor is really, really high. So it's, there's always stuff to talk about. I have plenty of notes of things I want to talk about in a lot of ways. I thought that this was an amazing Kim episode. But I am starting to get top notes of not time wasting, but maybe throat clearing, maybe like saving a couple of plays for the end of the game. Like, I don't know what it is, but I just wanted to talk it out because I just got through this with Ozark with the split season. Breaking Bad did this with the split season.

I'm just like this kind of thing where you're like, was this a production thing? And that's why you guys decided to split it in this way. Ordinarily, like, it's not like I want less better call Saul,

but I am wondering what the cumulative effect of Lalo on the road in Germany and Kim and Saul, painstakingly going through this revenge plot against Howard is going to result in. Yes, I agree with you.

And I am going to, I've been thinking, about this since watching the episode. And I'm going to use an analogy that is, if nothing else, will affirm my longtime status as man of the people. Yeah. You know, just Hoy Palloy, just out there, boots on the ground kind of guy. Because the thing this episode made me think of was the time I dined at three Michelin Star restaurant in New York, 11 Madison Park. Is it a humble brag, maybe? It was before they became vegan. But I feel like, again, And this is a conversation with friends.

Our audiences are friends. I don't think this surprises anyone. I am who you thought I was. Okay. So the reason I bring this up is because when I had the opportunity to go to what something is the best restaurant in New York, I was very grateful for it, enjoy the experience, I enjoyed the evening. Chris, I don't remember a single thing I ate.

I don't remember a single dish, no matter how exquisite, no matter how the providence of the ingredients, I can't tell you anything. the thing that I remember about the evening is that near the end, I mean, I hope it was near the end, I hope it was the end, the waiters roll, well, they don't roll up,

they roll you out, but they walk over to your table, pushing a cart with like a bottle of expensive calvedos, apple brandy on it, and two glasses, and they say, thank you for dining with us tonight. Chef, you know,

enjoys this as an after-dinner drink. Enjoy yourself. Help yourself to as much or as little as you like, and they walk away. And it's such a baller move. Honor system. I love it. It's also smart because they've been plying you with fine wines all night. Unless you're really out there, you're not going to drain this bottle of brandy. But what it made me realize in that moment is the greatest luxury of the whole experience was time.

You were in the fancy place. Everyone was nice to you. The banquettes were nice. The lighting was wonderful. The person dining with me, you know, perfect. It couldn't have been better. and they didn't make you feel like it had to end anytime soon, and you could savor it and enjoy it.

That's what I remember about the meal. And so that really is what I thought of when I was watching this episode of Better Call Saul when my critic brain kind of kicked into hyperdrive, and I was like, they didn't need a split season. AMC wanted more episodes. They worked something out with Sony, and Peter Gould and Vince Gilligan had to be like,

well, I guess we got a stretch. Like comics to cat skills would vamp for a while. I feel like that's a little bit ungenerous to think that way for any number of reasons, not just questioning their creative motivations. I think generally, my appreciation for the episode went up when I realized that we were being given the luxury of more time in this world, savoring things, savoring little details. It's kind of incredible how many aspects of Better Call Sol, the entire series, might be tossed into the bin of, we didn't need that scene.

But I'm glad we had it. Yeah. And that goes back to season one when we weren't sure. And we started to question it in a more aggressive way before the show turned around and came back and bit us in the ass with it's really good. And you and I were on the same page where I think that we were less enamored with the Chuck part of this series and more keyed into it as the Chuck part sort of fell apart, thus catapulting Jimmy into Saldum. And then the cartel stuff threaded through. And we sort of had Gus emerge, Mike becomes the Mike we know, but then this Nacho character as the connective tissue between those two plot lines

really kind of hit in a way that maybe no other character has since Jesse Pinkman in some ways. You know, in terms of that, like, emotional investment that you have. Obviously Kim, to some, you know, obviously Kim. But like I think Nacho was like the other pure BCS creation that I think everybody jumped into and now we obviously don't have Nacho. That leaves Kim. I thought this was a really cool Kim episode.

The question I wanted to ask you is, did you think that you learned anything new about Kim that you didn't know before? And then I guess, if I already may ask a follow-up, is that okay, or is that a very consumerist relationship with a show? To be like, tell me something new.

Push the ball forward. Tell me something new. Why do I keep tuning in and making sure I've watched this Monday night? Do you see what I'm saying? I do. I think you're asking the right question. answer, I shook my head, but this is an audio medium. No, I don't think we learned anything new. And in fact,

I didn't love the cold open with young Kim because I guess it kind of... You're just going to pass up Lilkin? Yeah, yes, I am. I left that on the shelf. Thank you very much. I feel a little bit stuck in Nowhere'sville with Kim in that one of the things I admire about the show and always have is it's enormous restraint

in some areas. I don't particularly at this moment in televised entertainment, I'm cool with characters not having a traumatic origin story. I'm fine with that. Ray Seahorn is so amazing and the time spent with her has been so strong that I feel like I understand her and am compelled

by her and what makes her tick without knowing that you know, her mom was a little bit sketchy as well. And so she wanted to impress her mom and thus she's in a relationship like that with her husband. I'm okay not knowing that. I guess it was necessary as ballast because as things are now careening towards what appears to be, at least appears to be a catastrophic resolution. The reasons for her doing this did become a little more vague. And I'm sorry to keep harping on it. It's something we've been talking about for a couple weeks now. but it's not a relationship that I think is particularly a passionate or romantic one, which we admire. Why she is committed to doing this act of revenge with Jimmy to the point where she would sabotage an incredible opportunity for what up to now has been the one passion that outranked Jimmy slash Saul.

It was a little bit questionable to me. So it was a little bit caught in between. Like I guess the motive, I appreciate, as I always do, any extra little bits that the show. wants to share with us, but it didn't change my opinion of her. And because we still don't quite know what they're doing, they are very much ahead of us, the audience. Yeah. I'm left feeling a little bit. What's the, what is the official name for the emoji with a straight line mouth? You know, that's a great question. I have never figured that out. A nonplussed, I guess. I'm going to refer to it as the face that you make when I reach minute four of a monologue about what storytelling

means. Um, I mean, just broadly speaking, this episode obviously opens with a flashback. We've gotten flashbacks from Kim before. I think that that's supposed to be illustrative of the gray area that Better Call Saul lives in, which is she comes out of this moment where you think that she's in trouble, you think that she is learning a lesson, you think that she is learning the difference between right and wrong. And it turns out that the sort of guiding figure in her life, the formative character in her life, her mother, is like, it's not about right and wrong, it's about what you can get

away with, you know? and obviously Jimmy plays a part, plays that same part for her to some extent. Here's my, I guess my pitch for this episode would be, we're watching Better Call Saul. We know how Jimmy becomes Saul. We know what Saul becomes, as Breaking Bad goes on. We know this guy has gone down this slippery slide.

Everybody he loves gets kicked off the ride at some point, and he just keeps going down and down. what we aren't privy to is the nuances of those characters who get kicked to the curb. We saw what happened with Chuck. And now with Kim, I mean, she literally, like not even, it's not even a metaphor, pulls a U-turn. On the road to justice for all, pulls a U-turn to go back to execute this, you know, in some ways, it's kind of like all MacGuffin. Like I don't even know what D-Day is.

I don't know what could they are trying to do to Howard. You know, like I think like you said, like this is a part of the show. These guys are geniuses of the characters know more than the viewers and then the viewers slingshot past the characters. Yeah.

And I'm just waiting for that moment and I think in a normal season, maybe the Howard plot gets taken care of in four episodes and now we're in the end game. and instead it just feels like we are seeing a very, very, very, very short period of time being dragged out over hours and hours and hours. First of all, shout out to I-25, which is the road between Albuquerque and San Faye. I was wondering if you recognize that. I have called you from that.

We had some very enjoyable phone calls during the two times I went to Santa Fe during my six months in Albuquerque. Right. Very long, very straight road. Even if your hands free, you can really chat it up. So I think that if we rewatch the beginning of the season, we would know more than we do at this point because little details get lost along the way. I think the broad contours of this were related to the plan they hatched at the end of last season that if they could get Sandpiper to settle early, they could get a large payday. Or Jimmy would still be entitled to it. but it's being dragged out because Hamlin and McGill is like pushing for everything.

And so they're trying to force something here, I guess, by some combination of discrediting Howard or having Howard doubt them. And then there's this extra piece where the retired Santa Fe judge who is serving as the mediator, the arbitrator, which is absolutely something retired judges do. They're doing something regarding faking images of him meeting off the books with Jim. me or, you know, but he had a broken arm, so the pictures are now no longer useful. All of it is leading to him getting some sort of payout. And, you know, the pessimist in me thinks this is also leading to some sort of unpleasant endgame for Howard and or Kim. Yeah. All of this is our, our relationship with this show is now five, six years of being like, it's all doc review. Oh, when you rip up each dock and paste it back together again, it spells, dear Mr. McGill, I gave you all the clues, or

whatever, and it's an incredible, it's an incredible ride that we didn't see coming. I have a lot of faith in this writing staff that what they actually have planned for D-Day and then the way it's going to go wrong and then maybe go right and then break our hearts is going to be worth it. Like, I think next week's going to be exciting. But this does take me to the larger point where both of the major storylines that are left for either this half season, which I hope, because I'm still holding out hope that at least the majority of the back half is going to be. You don't think Lalo has a couple more lovely parts of Germany to see? I mean, by the way, authentically German? Someone shout out and let us know, because last week I was like Bravo

production and locations for finding the part of Albuquerque that looked like Germany. This week they were not in Albuquerque. You do not have trees and foliage like that. So I don't know where they went, but I'm very impressed. But okay, so the large pieces that are either going to end next week or continue into next season, help me find, it's not our job to know, but we do our podcasting. So maybe we'll do some of this speculative work here. I don't see, unless they overlap, which they may, because Lalo may be returning just in time for D-Day,

I'm concerned about potential satisfactions of the outcomes because I don't see what pieces, I don't see what dominoes are left to fall. Specifically on the legal D-Day Sandpiper side, it's Howard and it's Kim and either Jimmy gets a giant payout that allows him to buy a lot of American flag themed suits and decor for Francesca

or Howard is disbarred or Kim is disbarred or whatever right? Like this is, that's what I see as the stakes on that side of the ball. On the Lalo side of the ball, it's actually more limiting because Nacho's gone and every single person remaining on that side of the ball

except for Lalo himself survives. Yeah. I watched several long YouTube videos today about whether or not Lalo basically could exist in the Breaking Bad universe and they kind of go through all these moments where like Gus is like there are no more Salamancos left to Hector and it's kind of definitive. Now they can get some wiggle room. They could be like Lalo faked his own death again. There's tons of possibilities. Lalo is also taking on a certain supervillain quality in terms of his ability to escape. second floor of windows and jump off of rocks and all these things. Like it's, he's a super, yeah, he's a super villain.

Yeah. But I mean, if I had to guess, I would say one of these two things are going to happen. So you finish up the Sam Piper legal thriller, uh, legal procedural that the show has been for several years. With this first half of the season six,

this part A. And the Howard thing gets wrapped up. And whatever happens to Kim in the aftermath of that, whether they come out on the winning or losing end quote unquote, she's kind of changed by that. And then that the second part of the season is about the cartel stuff and the return of Lalo and Kim now existing in this much more dangerous friend of the cartel world.

And it turns out only Jimmy's built for that. So we have that possibility. Yeah. The other possibility is that they have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time teasing a post-breaking bad world. And that the second half of the season could exist contemporaneous to Breaking Bad or post-breaking Bad.

And that that is not something that's just going to be last shot of Goodfellas. Now I'm just a schnook who does Sinabon. It's going to be really what happens to this guy later on. And I don't know which one I want more. You know, I think that there's part of me that would love to see them wrap up the storylines that they have teased so far now just because you and I are way too plugged into this and now have kind of like, we have thought through all

the eventualities, and I think it is affecting my appreciation of what I see, which as soon as you take a step back and start talking about, you know, the waiting room in Saul's office or, you know, like Mike talking to his daughter-in-law from across the street but pretending to be in Tennessee. Like, just these wonderful, wonderful scenes. And I actually thought, like, Esposito did a great job directing this episode. And I thought Ray Sehorne was incredible in this episode. And, you know, that even that scene of Howard with his wife, you know, in this sort of cold war that they've got going, and he makes this cappuccino and she just pours it into a go cup. By the way, no free ads, but I was happy Howard is also about that breville life.

That's me, man. That's my mornings right there. So what is that? Is that an espresso maker? Yeah. Yeah. And you like that? I do.

I still go Mr. Coffee. Well, I actually know what the thing is is I like to get out and I like to get into the cafes. I like to go to La Cologne, press the flesh, see people, kiss babies, just be like vote CR. Give me the large light roast with a lot of oat milk. A lot of people have shifted their public behavior and persona post-COVID, not you. You're just, you just start like mouth-kissing babies. They love it. They love it. I meant that it symbolically. Totally. I have an answer to the, I think you've laid it out very well. My answer is a million percent I only want the latter. I need this show to slingshot out of this time now. And in fact,

something I would love to see would be for the Kim's story to still be in play in the black and white Omaha world. Meaning she's not dead, but maybe she's disgraced, maybe she's in hiding.

She's from Nebraska. Exactly. And so maybe there's a world where we see Jimmy become Jimmy again or a new version of him that has a shot at redemption. I would really like to see that because, again, the show is,

so tightly packed and dense. I understand why this is the case, but I am struck by how little, how few red shirts they've given themselves. Lalo's on a mission to find out about the super lab. I was going to say, can you talk me into the super lab subplot? I cannot, because he's there to confirm the existence of Gus Fring's secret super lab, which is part of his plan to go independent and overthrow the Salamanca's as we saw play out in Breaking Bad. We know that the super lab is a up and running. It was the fulcrum of the later seasons of Breaking Bad. So we know that Lalo, we know he'll definitely find out about it. He probably already has. It took a real big gamble on

one random German's ability to use a belt to tie off his own leg stump because he's like, I want all this trouble to find you, talk to you. And he's like, now here, you tie this off. Right. That dude's in shock. I think you should tie it off if you want to talk to him. You know what I mean, that's just my, you know, backseat quarterbacking. Anyway, by the way, you don't quarterback from the backseat. You drive from the backseat. It's backseat driver. Monday morning. Monday morning quarterback, yeah. Great job by me. I love driving and playing professional football. Running the spread. It's just me. Yeah. Changing lanes. Veering cross lanes when I see you just putting your face on babies at Sunset Junction,

wild abandoned. Yeah, I, we, he knows. He knows. He finds out about it for sure, and then he comes back and shit goes down. But again, he's the only victim. As far as I can tell, there's no one left. But to be fair to the show and where we're headed and the mystery of it, we do know that his story intersects with Jimmy again because this is the show, and we haven't seen the way that's going to play out. And it always, and I give them credit for this,

does come back to the first words he screams in the desert in his first appearance in Breaking Bad. It was Ignatio, yeah. If Lalo and Nacho didn't figure heavily in his origin story or on his conscience the point where he thinks he's dying because of it, that wouldn't be the case if it was just a D-Day thing and then a separate plot. So, okay, so this is us, we're now vamping the way we're accusing the show of because we don't know. And that's a good place to be dramatically. But I will say that more than at any other time in this show's run, even when we were making fun of the legal stuff, these last. last three, I want to say, episodes have felt to me like episodes that I actually would have enjoyed more in a binge where I was just in the world and enjoying myself.

Oh my God, we get to hang out with the veterinarian. Yeah, I can't wait. And I just can't wait to hit play again, you know, and like be back in it. I don't think we mentioned, by the way, the show is never, you know, everything does matter whether they know what it's going to mean when it happens or not. But we didn't mention the veterinarian scene, the first appearance of Robert Forster, character, you know, who disappears people, which is a service, obviously, Jimmy uses. He has his business card in the black book.

Will he have to use it for Kim? I mean, is that where we're headed? Because there's significance to it, potentially, for this series. That's all interesting stuff to play with. But I didn't expect to be in this place that we are in at this point. Yeah, I think the thing that overall, what we're reacting to is, a feeling of, like, a little bit of like foot dragging or stuff that could take place in an episode, an episode taking place over the course of two or three. Also, I think that we had the luxury in the first five seasons,

for some reason, of feeling like anything could happen. This world was constantly expanding. You could bring the Germans in. You could have nacho. You could do the kettlemen's. You could just tell us so many stories. We get to find out about Mike. We get to find out about Jimmy and his family. This Kim creation is just an absolute miracle. And now, because you and I have worms in our brains are just like, okay, I'm now like overlaying Breaking Bad's plot and I am thinking about who gets mentioned where and what could possibly happen. We are thinking about time in a way that like to go back to what you were saying in the beginning. Now you are aware that the cheese service is coming around. Like the dessert card has come and the bill is going to get paid soon. And you start asking. You start

asking yourself, like your meal, what are you going to remember about this show? And I think one of the great things about the show is that if you had never seen Breaking Bad or you didn't even care for Breaking Bad, there's an argument that you might like Better Call Saul more. There's an argument that Better Call Saul completely decoupled itself from Breaking Bad at its best and was like a completely unique artistic experience. And now I think it's like kind of falling back into prequel mode. and what the question is is will it have basically the runway to make itself a sequel? They have to. They have to do it. I just don't know what it'll look like. I don't know why there would spend so much time being like, this is where this guy is if they didn't.

Well, also, it's interesting because in every interview, and hopefully we'll get a chance to talk to the guys behind the show about this. But, you know, one of the great what-ifs about this was, I think when they started, so we've already, last week we talked about how they thought maybe this would even be like, a half-hour procedural comedy, and then it turned into what it is. But I think early on, they were like, he'll turn into Saul at the end of season one. And that became essentially season five. Yeah. So I think that their own chronology of which story would interest them more and which which one they would get to has shifted radically. So that also will be interesting, because if they do end up going to Omaha in a more pronounced way in the back half or less of season six, there exist a possibility where in their minds they were going to get there in season three.

Sure. Yeah. So it'll be interesting. It'll be a different type of storytelling, I would imagine, more economical with the amount of runway they have left. We could break there unless you had any other breaking Better Call Saul observations. No, it's time for Better Call Sal. Let's guess the lines. How about that? The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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Okay, so Sally Rooney's conversations with friends, the second adaptation to come from the Lenny Abramson, larger umbrella production team. Obviously, they did normal people, which came out two years ago now, I guess. It was peak pandemic. We were watching it when it all was shutting down. And I think was a breath of fresh air,

an absolute revelation to start making performances, and also just like a feeling that we are always searching for in the TV that we watch where you're just being brought fully on into this world, and you just can't get enough of it, and you just want to, like, sit there and listen to these people talk and watch them go about their daily business. And, you know, Andy and I approach these adaptations from two different angles where I come in. I have not read the Sally Rooney books, but I know a lot of people have,

and based on some of the reviews I've read, that seems to be a major talking point, is the deviations from the book and specifically the casting. So I guess I wanted to ask you, first off, Andy, was Conversations a book that you held closer to your heart than normal people? Yes. So I have read both of these books and I find this fascinating. I think I found I think conversations with friends is a better book. And I think normal people was a much smarter and ultimately better TV adaptation. Broadly, not everything ought to be adapted. Not everything lends itself to adaptation. And I think that the the team that you're talking about and we should. shout out the producers and everyone as well, because this is the same team, including Sally Rooney, who is a producer and I think is in the writer's room. She co-wrote six episodes of normal people. She did not screenwrite any of these episodes.

She served more as a consultant. She's in the mix, and Lenny Abramson directed a lot of them, and they obviously film in Ireland. One of the smartest things that they did was decide to do normal people first, because it is just on the face of it, like a more natural filmed entertainment. It is about two leads who can't keep their hands off each other. And that's pretty much dynamite in front of a screen, right? Especially if you hit double-pader like they did with Paul Meskell and Daisy Edgar Jones.

Also, the limitations of the book, which was switching perspectives from chapter to chapter between the two, can be exploded in a really creative and fresh way, I mean, fresh in terms of it being different than what you're used to from the book on the screen, where their perspectives are constant. And also there's a third perspective of us or the campaign. camera watching it all. It was such a smart decision. The second smart decision was to entrust the same team to do it again. No harm in that. It's really hard to adapt stuff. It's really hard to get tone right and to push things forward and change them while hopefully still honoring the material that drew people in in the first place in the books. After watching, and I've only watched two,

so feel free to get much better. I watch for, we're hanging out in Croatia now in my episodes. I'm going to watch all of it. But through two, I would say, that this is a really interesting reminder of how hard this is, just simply how hard it is to make TV and how hard it is to capture lightning in a bottle twice. This was a harder lift, because so for people who haven't watched it, I've already sold you.

Even if you haven't watched these shows, even if you've never heard of the author Sally Rooney and you're somehow still listening to this podcast, I told you that the first show is about two young, hot people boning for like 10 episodes and all the episodes are 30 minutes long. This is about a naughty, ongoing, diagonal crisscross relationship between four people, two young women who are occasional lovers and best friends. Francis and Bobby played in the show by Lasacha Lane plays Bobby in a change from the book and that she's American. What's the name of the young woman who plays Francis?

Alison Oliver. Yeah. Who become embroiled in a complicated friendship, jealousy, affair, relationship with a slightly older, an established married couple, played by Jemima Kirk, whose character is a writer, and her husband, Nick, played by Mr. Taylor Swift, Joe Alwyn, is an actor. And there's a lot of stuff about communism and a lot of stuff about emails. So, like, already we're struggling, right? Like, the logline is not nearly as easy.

I would then go further to say that it lacks the center provided by white-hot supernovas of young talent. I think Allison Oliver so far is great. She is Francis. She's an ideal Sally Rooney avatar. I like Sasha Lane a lot as an actor. I always find her really interesting to watch. Joe Alwin seems like a good actor too, but already he's lost me, which probably isn't fair, because I think he's perfectly credible and charismatic, but he's kind of pretty and young looking and doesn't have the kind of like this is an older, rougher person who maybe has a cockyed or outsider perspective on this world of young, relatively privileged university people talking about stuff.

Right. You know, and they simply don't have the same chemistry. And it's not their fault that they're going to be judged against Paul and Daisy, but it's not quite there. And all of a sudden you're like, I still love that the episodes are 26 minutes long, but all of a sudden I'm just not as invested because I don't know it's just simply not as simple as a love story. So it seems worthwhile.

I love that. This is kind of funny because I feel like we're on the opposite side of this one. So I don't think that this is, there was a, like you said, the lightning in a bottle, like catching these two people, not only two new faces that you hadn't seen before, but like the obvious, obvious, obvious chemistry and cinematic attraction that Paul Mescal and Daisy Yeager Jones had for each other normal people. And it made it such a universal story,

even though it was so highly specific. And it just felt like really moving and really important when it happened. And I know the conversations with friends isn't that. And I know that almost purposely, these are people ironically who aren't good at communicating with one another and aren't saying the things that they want to be saying.

And in Francis's case, I'm not even sure she knows what she wants to be saying. But that's accurate with the book. I enjoy watching a show about that kind of person. Like, I haven't seen that kind of person in a while where they kind of depict a person in the process of figuring out who they are and who they want to love and how they want to be loved and what they want to do with their lives. And it's not always like a cool thing to watch or it's not always a cool thing to experience. You're not like, you're not your best self when you're just like, I'm so fucking lost. I have a weird relationship with my parents.

I have a weird competitive, kind of romantically charged, but also hate my friend, my best friend, and also like, I've somehow thrown myself in the middle of a marriage, whereas, like,

basically drawn to the success of the woman, but have now latched myself onto the man. And it's like a kind of ugly story in some ways. It feels like very much like, you know, we talk about coming of age, and typically we think of it as like teens becoming adults. But this is really like,

young adults becoming adults. And I love that. I don't know. And I was just going to be a sucker for the Dublin stuff, the setting, the environment. Also like very nostalgic for like just whiling away your days on really academic pursuits and not really thinking about like yourself as specifically as ambitious as you need to when you become an adult adult, but still kind of having an awareness of like celebrity or being important or having people think you're important. So I don't I just really enjoy the things that this show makes me think about because it's so unlike a lot of other stuff that's on TV right now. Well, thanks for that. Oh, hey, thanks.

I think you articulated really well what is ultimately worthwhile and good about the show. I totally agree with you. I'm not out by any stretch of it. No, I know. But a bit more so, I think that what you're talking about is right. Like zeroing in on that naughty period of life between like 21 and 29. I just literally said a decade of life. I could have just said the 20s. I'm doing great today, is worthwhile and unfortunately rare.

And the fact that the Rooniverse is viable IP is great for everybody, regardless of how each adaptation turns out. I think the other thing that's slightly lacking, that again is not going to be relevant to you because it's in the book, is that it's not just that the story is simpler to adapt in normal people. It's that the nature of the story, the purpose of the story is in conversations with friends is also baked into how it is written. And what I mean by that is it struck me, I am much, we are much older than Sally Rooney, but it struck me as a very compelling, interesting, and wise

observation of how we define ourselves now, or young people define themselves now and how they interact. Fundamentally, the way that plays out, at least in the early going of the story, is that both Francis and Nick bond at first by their social awkwardness. They aren't as, they don't have the gift of gab like their partners essentially do immediately to just start to just start clucking and sharing cigarettes and having a great time. What they discover is that they both have, as we all hope we do, hidden depths over emails and texts. And they write each other with their real voices. You know what I mean in a way that makes them both vulnerable and attractive to each other. Talking about like revealing your true self via screens or multimedia is a challenge for TV.

And it's not the wrong decision that the two sexy leads make out almost right away on the show. I don't remember if it's at the end of the first or the beginning of the second, but I don't think it's a spoiler to say that they do. It's that they're not able to do that bit. There's literally a line where he's like, maybe I'll be more interesting over email. And she's like, ah, ta, thanks for that, maybe. And then they, I'm grand. It's grand. It's grand. And then immediately they're drawn to each other because we see the chemistry or, were intended to see the chemistry that maybe they can't see for themselves.

So it's just, this is definitely the belly aching of someone who appreciated a certain thing about the book that the book did so well. It's just that in this case, through two, which is 42 minutes, which is what half the length of an episode of under the banner of heaven, it hasn't, to me, yet proved its reason to exist as a TV show on its own. It's such an interesting way of looking at it. I mean, like, at this point, I've kind of dropped that. I understand completely why you're just like you're watching something and you might be

like, why the hell is this like a thing? I think I have more hostility towards other things about that, but like, I'm so glad it's TV show. Like, I'm just so glad they're making, like, somehow they made a TV show about early 20s and early 30s creative types who wind up in like complicated relationships of one another. I'm like, yeah, for sure. Keep rolling these out. Chris, have you ever gone swimming in the Irish sea like they do early on? I mean, that's not a metaphor, guys. No, actually, I never, like, it never occurred to me to go swimming in a body of water. in the United Kingdom the entire time I was there.

Or the Republic of Ireland. Yeah. Yeah, I get that all people all over the world, when the temperature begins to feel warm for them, are drawn to large bodies of water to cool themselves. It's just, I can't imagine ever being hot. Right. Well, it was like, I remember just a couple weeks ago

when I was in London and it was like 63 degrees, and there were just people wearing like tube tops and like sunning themselves. And I was like, do you know the sun is not actually out? It's just, you're like mildly humid out today. Also, yeah, when I was there, the sun comes out briefly just to check on things. Like it's busy, you know, but it left the kettle boiling. So it just comes over.

It's just like, ah, ta, thanks for that. It's Ireland now again. It sees everyone there and then goes away for the rest of the day. And when it goes away, it's not like it goes away on a humid New York day where it's still 80 degrees. It's just swamp weather. It goes away and it's like, in its stead, let's roll back winter. You know what I mean? Like there's a stage man.

being like, well, what are we going to do? Bring the snow back. Meanwhile, a guy named Gareth has torn away his clothing as if he was the sixth man on a playing off basketball team. He's like, I'm fucking mad for it. Yeah. He's just drinking a shandy next to the Thames or like, not just that. Like, the second the sun came out, all these vendors just appeared selling apparel sprits.

Yeah. They're like, you're going to fucking enjoy this summer. while at last, even if it's just seven minutes. So, yeah, I get it. It was an, it had an intense relationship with weather, and it's, they must hate hearing us in California talk about it. Big fan of the party, the dinner party that they go to. I just love, I love it when like, everybody comes over to see how different people are like, oh, they're rolling out this stuff first, you know, this is the vibe. It's like, also was really good, um, comedy of manner stuff for parties where it's like, how soon do you break off from the person you came with? Or is there a

tacit understanding that you are there, each other's wingman throughout the party. And it's like, you know, because like that's a big thing is like when you go to a party and it's like there are some people who really enjoy going to parties essentially not solo, but like when I get to the party, I'm ready to go off and make friends without you.

It's like when there are some people like my idea of a party, yes, and my idea of going to a party is standing in the kitchen with three people I already know talking about stuff that we've already talked about. it's it's a it's a it's a strong strategy I mean like I can go either way it depends on the vibe it depends on the night you know

I when you say that I immediately think of our friends Amanda and Zach who guarantee everyone will stay by the kitchen because they always get like an entire wheelbarrow full of chick-fil-aid nugs yeah so I think they need to like spread a nug trail throughout the home if they want people doing something other than congregating with people they already know yeah because it's just that you're never going to leave the source. Come on. No, I know, but I loved that element of it. And then in the episodes that I've

watched, they've all gone on vacation together to Croatia, which is a country near and dear to my heart. Love traveling through Croatia. And yeah, I don't know. I just love seeing like pretty much everyday behavior played out on screen. Maybe it's a really good antidote to Saul when you're watching it. Like as like, everything matters. There's nothing but consequences. You're just so wrapped up in stakes. And on this, I'm like, this could be two more episodes. This could be 25 more episodes. I kind of don't care. Am I right to assume that Francis in the show is more likable than she is in the book? Or is that a matter of opinion? It's a good question. I don't know. You're very much in Francis's head in the book. So I didn't read it thinking, disliking her because you're

just right there with her. Okay. You know what I mean? Like you're very sympathetic or at least empathetic to her situation. But I think the show does do a good job of that aspect. I'm glad you brought it up because there's a feeling, and I think Alison Oliver really gets this in her performance as well, where you feel someone teetering on the edge of what might be a, not bad, but irresponsible decision,

but you are so present with the flush of adrenaline and endorphins and hope that that decision brings that you don't carry judgment, right? You're just right there with them. You're surfing the 100-foot wave of their heartbeats. and I kind of like that. A hundred foot wave callback. By the way, I can't wait for 200 foot wave. I'm so excited.

Honestly, man, if there's a 200 foot wave, I think we have bigger problems than whether or not people can serve them or not. By the way, can we just, I know this is not like super relevant, but I did want to, you know, I mentioned this to you when we hung out over the weekend, but I did address a longstanding cinema lacunae in my life, like a movie I'd never seen in anticipation. of the sequel. Yeah. I just want to run this back in front of the mic for you. Okay.

That first of all, it's tough to admit. We've talked about this before, but like it is tough when you reach a certain age to admit black holes in your cultural memory or cultural experience. But I had to admit to everyone that until this weekend, I'd never seen the motion picture top gun. Maybe this is on brand considering I was talking about 11 Madison Park an hour ago.

You're like getting prepared for the new top gun, almost like you're preparing for a final. You're like, I have to see the first one. Well, first of all, I was not, homework. It was not an imposition. But yeah, like I, it was interesting because I felt like I got it. Like, I'd seen enough of the

scenes, and I knew what it had influenced, and I'd seen Quentin Tarantino monologue about it. So I felt like I got it, and I also felt that I correctly understood the type of danger zone adrenaline that the sequel is giving people, and then I wanted a piece of that for myself.

That was accurate, you know, in terms of seeing the first movie and being like, yeah, I kind of did understand the vibe. But the thing that really took away from it and maybe we should be servicing. It is unsurprisingly streaming on Paramount Plus right now. I just couldn't get over what like a tight, well-made movie it was. I know that sounds super basic, but like there really wasn't an origin story other than Maverick has an old photograph. You know, it introduces us in media fucking in mock six res. And like literally everything that happens before they touch ground tells you everything you need to

know about these characters. And then there's, rest is just like motorcycles and take my breath away and volleyball. And it's just so, it feels now after 36 years, it's as tight as watching like the third man. And like, well, this is the blueprint for everything that came after. And it's so economical. It was a pleasure to watch. How much of the movie did you feel like you had quote unquote seen through like osmosis of cultural reference points versus like, geez, I didn't know these guys

played volleyball? How much of it did you feel like, you're like, oh, right, this must be the scene when Chris says this line every other day. He's referring to this or something. I do think that I had seen in a jigsaw puzzle way, at least 80% of the movie. Okay. What I had not seen was that opening sequence or the part where the principal from Back to the Future is just like, God damn it has to like, he has to land the guy for him, right? Yes. And he does the flip, he flips upside down and they flipping the bird. But then also then they're back on the aircraft carrier and the principal from Back to the Future is like, God damn it, Maverick and Goose, you're the worst this unit has, but you're the best hope I've got. I was like, oh, that's what invented that. Well, that's because Merlin gets the

shakes, right? And takes his wings off, right? Because of the mig. He starts sweating. And I was like, this is what panic attacks look like at 1986? I'm accurate. That was back in a time when you were only allowed to have a panic attack if you dog fought a mig. Yes, exactly. You couldn't, you couldn't be anxious about like, oh my God, a conversation I don't want to have. It was like, nope, you got to do fucking 3Gs. I have to take the G train today. I don't know what to do with myself, which I've had that panic attack. Yeah, I thought all that was great. And the only other scene I hadn't seen, like, the Meg Ryan and the, in the beer bar, you know, and they're playing piano and Anthony Edwards and all that. I hadn't seen, are we doing spoilers?

Like, there's a character who does not survive the film. For Top Gun, you can, I think you can safely split Top Gun. So I never saw that sequence. A 50-minute television. podcast, yeah. I never saw that sequence. And so I didn't know that it was like a training exercise gone wrong with Mav in the controls. There's a part of me that thought that like the Russians attacked and it was red dawn midway through the movie and that this was a casualty of that. The geopolitical circumstances of many Jerry Bruckheimer movies are somewhat meaningful, like purposely opaque. Yeah. It's just, is this the most dad of my age thing about me that I just feel about the sequel, which is apparently great

the way I would feel about my children scoring a goal in soccer. Like, I'm just so happy that they went out there and did it. I feel pleased about this. We haven't seen it, but everyone seems to love it. I feel like this country needs it. We need a W. You know, and I think also, like, you know, for a lot of people, it hasn't been their lifelong dream

to see another Batman brought to life or another Spider-Man brought to life or Thor brought to life, not that there's anything wrong with those things. This was the comic, like these were the superheroes we grew up with. Like, I grew up with watching Top Gun 500 times and just being like, call me Maverick, like, or coming up with cool call signs for myself, like Woodchipper or whatever, you know, like, I don't know.

That was your go-to? That was your number one. Did you have like a, do you, after seeing Top Gun once, do you have a call sign you'd like to have? Do I have one now? Yeah. As a man in his 40s? Clonopin.

I'm just, seriously. I'm just grateful to be called. The phone's ringing. Do you know, Chris, last Top Gun question? You got me here to ask me a million Top Gun questions. Well, Kai, you can stop recording anytime you want. But Chris, what's the protocol of putting on the mask or off the mask? Because from what I understand from Top Gun, and I thought this before I watched the movie,

but I thought maybe in flight school, Tom Scarrett might explain it more. So for what I understand, when you're engaging, you put on the mask. And as soon as you're pissed off, you rip it off your face. I always assumed when I thought it had something to do with the oxygen flow. I can't get my mask on. I can't get my mask. But I would imagine that oxygen is pretty thin where they are anyway, so you should probably have a mask on.

I think it's mostly tear the mask off because it looks cool. Got it. I would, if given the option, wear that mask. Apparently America has decided it looks cool, too, to tear the mask off. Yeah, that's where we could trace it back to this. So thanks for that, Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer. I was just going to say that if given the choice, even on a relatively short commuter flight to the Bay Area,

I would wear that kind of mask. Oh, yeah. I would wear the full. Kalsine Klonopin would wear a full flight suit and a pilots mask. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be pretty cool.

Okay, well, we can wrap it up there. I'm so glad you watched Top Gun. I can't wait to talk about Top Gun too with you. That's just in two weeks. So that's pretty awesome. Andy, I'm really, really, really developing a Bernthal imitation from We Own the City. I thought maybe I was going to leave it alone,

but I'm really starting to develop my chops, you know, and just be like, I didn't know I was here with Super Cop. Like really just... There it is. It's really dialing it in. So we can talk about that. Baltimore's in the pocket for us, Philly boys.

Like, there's slight differences regionally, but they're the weirdest accents, and they have a lot to say to each other. So this Thursday, we got a season finale of Atlanta. We could catch up on under the banner of heaven. I think there will be more hacks by that point. We could talk a little bit more about We Own This City, which is rounding home. So a lot of stuff to keep up on, I'm sure Andy will also keep me on my toes with yet another classic 80s blockbuster that he has decided to watch.

I'm good. I'm sorry to step on a new bit, but I think that's probably good for me. We were produced, as always, by Kai Maul and Kyle. What's your call sign? Oh, God. I don't know. You guys are going to have to give me one. Okay, we'll think about it. Thanks to Andy, thanks to Kai. We'll talk to you guys on Thursday. Great job, breaks. It's Mushrooms with me, Maddie Matheson. You know what's better than thinking about dinner too hard? Not stop that. And just just, just, Choose mushrooms.

Five minutes. Done. Dinner's that easy and you feel like a genius. It's not magic. It's mushrooms. Stop stressing at mushroomcounsel.com.