The Watch - ‘Better Call Saul’ S6E3

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

Chris and Andy break down the most recent episode of ‘Better Call Saul,’ and talk about the death of a major character (1:00), how the show is already halfway through the first part of Season 6 (22:46), and what is still to come (34:33). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line for the first time in what seems like months doing some shenanigans at the valet stand. It's Andy Greenwald! This isn't just transatlantic, buddy. This is transcontinental.

We're talking to each other at a distance, a great distance of 5,000 miles. Across an ocean, across a planet podcast with each other? Emotionally, there have been times when that has been the gulf between us, certainly. But I think, but in terms of physical distance, I don't know. Certainly during True Detective Season 1 was it was

Yeah, that cast a ball Ocean-like expanse Andy I am recording this podcast On an undisclosed day During the week previous to this episode of breaking Better Call Saul That we're going to be talking about It's Monday night

Weirdly I'm recording it on Monday night Yeah, so this is the hologram part No, we wanted to make sure that we covered this episode of Better Call Saul So I'm over in England working Where Andy just was on vacation It's been such a long time since we've actually recorded together.

So this is such a thrill. We are obviously going to get into this third episode of Better Call Saul Rock and Hard Place in just a few minutes. But I just wanted to hear the timber of your damn voice. God, you look beautiful. Tell me all about you. Tell me everything about all your takes.

This is a free fire zone. No, no, no. As many stuff, anything's off you want. If this wasn't like an 11 p.m., people are dying to know about a giant episode of television, I would let you know all of my most cutting-edge opinions about all of 2021's least memorable movies that I watched on the airplane flights. I think we should save it.

I think we should save it. I think that people have waited a long time to hear my take on James Bond, no time to die. So I think like we can punt that into next week. I mean, unless, do you think I'm wrong? No, I think that Thursday's show should just be me, catatonic jet lag and you be like bullet points as I'm like, you are correct, sir.

Should we just get into Saul? I think we have to. Honestly, Chris, when we made this plan to swap international destinations and time zones and then do this podcast, I didn't expect the third episode of the sixth season to be one that would demand an instant response. But it is. Yes. So here we are. Let's get in. So, spoilers, if you have not seen this episode of Better Call, Saul, stop listening.

There's no way to get no way around it. Don't have a fun time. We're not generally speaking about it because this is probably up to date. probably the most momentous episode of the series so far. There have been parts that have been really thrilling. There have been parts that have been gripping. There are parts that have been cool. But nothing sort of changed the chessboard the way tonight's episode did with the death

of Nacho Varga. So straight up off the bat, Andy, we haven't even talked about how you felt about the first two episodes. So I wanted to get your sense of how you felt like this major plot point was handled and the season so far. Because you blink and now half of, of this first installment of season six is already out? I am of two minds about all of it.

I want to start from a very safe and familiar place, which is there is no better produced or executed show on television than better call saw. We have said this at length. We've said it year after a year. But once again, through three episodes, I'm absolutely floored by what this team does. And I really think team is the right sense,

It's not just because of all the information we've gotten over the last few months about how three main cast members, Bob Odenkirk, Patrick, Fabian, and Ray Seahorn like live together. That's how close they are. But the team on the ground in Albuquerque, the full cast, the production crew, all the department heads, the writing staff, the directors that come in. Like, these people have worked together for a very long time, and it is masterful. It's masterful. I mean, part of me watching this season is, like, we may never see pros execute. on this level, like, again, you know, I think that for anyone who works in any challenging, creative field, you are constantly feeling like you're doing the best you can. That's the only way

you can get through it. But you're also thinking, oh, if I had one more bite at that apple. Oh, I've learned so much. Oh, I could do it again. I don't think there's ever been such an illustration of the beauty of cumulative knowledge of television storytelling as this crew has put together because they made one of, not arguably, one of the greatest TV shows of all time. And they ran it back. And everything we're seeing is both happening in the moment on the show that we're all enjoying. But it also is in some ways a corrective to things that they may have done differently in the past that they wanted another run at. So I'm kind of, I remain floored by it. You know, not just a little like visual aesthetic curly cues like the way the season opened with the ties and the beautiful montage,

but just the way that they take a situation such as Nacho's impossible circumstance. Right? And again, And I think it is the maturity of the storytellers involved where they were like, we have, we know when someone is written into a corner. Like, this is a team that has often excelled when they've written themselves into corners. This is a show that starts in a corner. Yeah. They continually are like, let's see if we can figure out a way out of this. Yeah. And famously, you know, when the last season of Breaking Bad opened with Walter in that flash forward of an indeterminate time with the beard and the gun in the trunk, they have now admitted Vince Gilligan and his writers, including Peter Gould, who is the co-creator of Better Call Saul.

didn't know what was going to happen next. They laid a marker for themselves to see if they could meet that challenge. They know when they have written someone into a corner and then you have to just deal with the realities of the corner. So the nacho circumstance, this is where it was going. And I think that there's a part of me that was like just, as I often am with the show, I just admire it. You know, there's a low rent D-minus version of a guy with his back against the wall being

taken off the board. And then there's the A-plus version, which was... on display tonight. So I admire and respect that they just steered into it. They didn't get cute. They didn't have an escape strategy. They didn't have a way to push this

into the next half of the season. This was the time where this made sense on their big board, and they did it. And so that is my admirable... That's your big picture. I have a zag, but first I want to hear your take on it.

Well, okay, so I would just say that this episode kind of reminded me of like, you know, when you go see a band that's got three or four really good albums, but two or three hits, maybe not hits, like on the Billboard charts, but hits among their fan base.

And they play one of the hits third. And you're like, ah, where are you guys going to go from here? Like, you guys already played that. I was building this up. I waited for the openers.

I've had three beers. And now I was like, this is going to be last or second to last or an encore. And now it's third. And so now I feel almost like I've emotionally peaked and just like where we still have so much time left to go.

I guess the, the reality is we do not have that much time to go. I mean, it is sort of strange that we've been waiting two years and now we're halfway through this first installment, the second installment coming, I believe, in the end of the summer or sometime in midsummer. You know, I would echo everything you said about the community of people who make this show.

It's gotten to the point now where I've never seen Marshall Adams or Allison Tatlock or Gordon Smith, but I almost like announced their names as if I'm like the Lakers announcer when I see him. I'm like, And coming in from director of photography universe. Marshall Adams. They also have really good names to announce.

I thought that this was at once a heartbreaking and unsentimental development for this show. And it was interesting. I'm kind of want to harp a little bit about this thing that you're talking about

with them writing themselves into corners and increasingly finding these elaborate, balletic ways, both for their characters to behave, but also for their writing to be executed,

to get themselves out of these corners. Because I almost felt like Nacho was the example of a better call Saul plot line. Not that ran out of air like in a bad way, but that he was just too tired. And he just was done trying to figure out three-card Monty games, especially when confronted with the three-cards that he was playing Monty with or the three-card Monty game that he was playing. He was playing against the cousins, like the twins or the, you know, the cousins. He was playing against... The salamoncas and Gus. There are no winners in that if you're Nacho.

Like, there's really no daylight there. And he had one friendly face in Mike. And they had had a conversation a couple seasons ago. I can't remember if it was last season or the season before that. Where, essentially, as Mike is getting more and more involved with Gus, Nacho says to him, do you know who you work for? Because those guys have had their dealings over the pill dealer and everything else. And Mike is basically, do you know who you work for?

You know what I mean? Like, I told you when you were getting involved with these people that this could get very, very heavy. And it's getting heavy. So I don't understand why you were involved. And Nacho says at that moment, my dad, you know, like they have a gun to my dad's head metaphorically. And they still had that gun on him. And I think that for fans of the show who were fans of Nacho and obviously fans of Michael Mandos' performance, maybe we were expecting a slightly more like operatic or grace note of,

an episode from his exit. He is obviously a character who's not in Breaking Bad, so we were led to believe that he had either gone to Manitoba or died. One or the other. And it was the latter. And yeah, man, I mean, in some ways, I was kind of,

once they shared the shot of tequila, I was like, I don't think he's going to get out of this. You know, I don't think Mike has an escape hatch. There are no more oil tankers to hide in. There are no more tricks to play. Like, he's got to choose between the best of all worst possible outcomes. Yeah, I think let's take a moment and say that one of the things that is just

consistently a joy in television is when an actor gets a chance and makes the most of it. And Michael Mando has had a really nice career. He was in Orphan Black. He's, I think he's the, like the avatar of a very successful video game franchise I learned during my cursory wikipediaing last night. He's a, you know, he went to like some of Canada's best acting schools. He's, he's, fine and he's a really good performer. No one was questioning that. But his ability to meet the moment that the show gave him is really awesome. And he deserves a lot of respect and acclaim for what he did physically this season by playing different modes of desperation, you know, and resignation. I just thought it was a really powerful performance. And I love when people, you

don't expect them to be bad, but you're always stunned when they just continue to get better. That's one of the great things about watching a long-running TV show, and so I love that. I think that your point about Nacho running out of road in his fictional life is really worth digging into in relation to his character's life and within the larger construct of the show. Because one of the struggles of Better Call Saul that they've made look easy, but it's sometimes worth harkening back to is, you know, this was a really, really tight box to try to create something exceptional in because it's a prequel. So we know how a lot of the characters are ending up. But it's not just that it's a prequel.

It's essentially two, if not more, TV shows at once always. And one of the dings on it during maybe low points and, not there were no low points. Let's say slower points in seasons one, two, and three was that people like the mic show. But maybe they didn't like the Jimmy show as much, or the Jimmy and Chuck show. Yeah. Or, you know, that the Gus Salamanca stuff was deep, deep, deep, Breaking Bad fanfic, basically. I mean, obviously it's not fanfic if it's written by the creators, but it was fan service, let's say, in terms of just like we get to see Tucko one more time. I don't think I cared that much about seeing Tucco one more time, but it was fun because that was a character that we liked and, you know, had an important role to play in Breaking Bad.

Nacho wasn't really on the same show as the other characters very much. And so I can't imagine the challenges that the writers had to keep him in play as much as they did. Ultimately, I felt a little frustrated last night because he was so expendable. Not that he didn't break my heart, not that the choices that he made weren't compelling in and of themselves, and also what they said about Mike's role in this organization and how he's changed over the past few seasons. but it ultimately was a little extraneous, and you felt like they had to X this off, because now they have, what do they have,

seven, eight episodes left to do the stuff that is, I guess, arguably more important. I realize this sounds a little callous, but there simply wasn't room, and I was feeling this a little bit last night. Again, I know it sounds pejorative and judgy. I actually am just always stunned about how well they've, constructed this and how they've turned potential negatives into positives. But I do have to take a

moment to just to note that, that like, there really wasn't that much room for Nacho to have more to him for this to land more heavily. He never crossed paths with Jimmy again. His relationship with his father was beautifully done in the small strokes that it was done. But that was all there was room for. He had the two young women living in his condo who have now taken the money and moved on. but I felt a little bit like the... By the way, I'm really pulling for those gals. I think they're going to make it. I think they're going to do fine.

I think they're going to start over, go back to trade school. Like tiny Wu-Tang. It's all out in front of them. It really is. That could be the next spinoff, by the way, and perhaps we should pitch it. Do you know what I mean? Like, they gave him as much as they could give him at the end, including suddenly, you know, finding this really powerful

spine to just like basically spit in Ector Salamanka's face and stand up to everyone. And then, you know, in the ultimate act of, I guess, aggressive narrative ownership due to himself what they were all going to do to do to him anyway and accept that. But I did in that moment feel like there wasn't that much, I wish we had had more from him or I wish it had been more connected to the larger story, you know, because it was such an epic moment.

That was a long way of saying a very mild criticism. I completely hear you. I think that I would add these two things. And hopefully we can stop. I feel like we're in the House of Commons and I'm like on one side of the bench and I'm like, good honorable sir, may you please tell me? Maybe it's just because of where I am.

I would say that I thought I thought Nacho played a pretty crucial role in this show. And you know, you could say that he was supposed to be kind of the audience avatar for the street level show that Better Call Saul was. and for the drug dealing aspect of the show that brought together the Salamanca's in the Fring Empire was sort of already kind of budding up against one another

and interlocked by the time he's introduced early on in the series. But he plays a crucial role in bringing Jimmy into the underworld with his dealings with the Kettleman's. And then obviously he kind of interacts with Mike at a very nascent stage of Mike's relationship with the Albuquerque underworld and then throughout

I thought he kind of had an interesting parallel storyline to Saul or to Jimmy where life is not necessarily about destiny and fate and even I think sometimes storytelling relies a little too heavily

on those ideas so that you can just kind of forecast where somebody is going to go and then take them there and just be like it was fate it was destiny like for Nacho I think Nacho is an accumulating of small decisions, just like Jimmy is going to be.

And if you go back and read everything that Nacho did on this series, it's so fucked up because he's just like kind of like, then I ripped off this pill dealer. But then it turned out that like I was going to get in trouble for ripping off a pill dealer, not telling Tucco. And then I started taking an extra package from Gus. And then I got sucked into that. And then I started,

then Hector threatened my father. So I took him out. And then I was in debt to Gus. and then I was in debt back to Lolo. And then I was, you know, basically it had become clear that one way or another, it was either going to be me or my father and probably both of us. And I just wound up out of options. And, you know, it's so interesting to watch them do half of an episode of classic Breaking Bad.

Like, how is Lalo going to escape these guys? And he's like, in the tanker. And then he finds a kindly, you know, mechanic. And then he's got his coveralls. And he's making his way slowly, slowly. and then when they cut after that phone call to Mike and you're like, oh, that's the phone call at the end of the second episode

and you see that that's the conversation that's going to be had. And you know, as soon as he's just like, if they're going to, if they go after your father, they're going to have to come through me that not just decision is made. So he gets his last supper of microwave chicken. They could have done better on that, by the way.

That was, maybe it would have tip the hand. Is the implication that that's Poyos Hermanos? Like, I was just kind of like, Could you guys have a chicken restaurant, you know? But also, it's kind of obnoxious to be like, this is your last meal and you go to eat my proprietary chicken blend. Yeah, but before I tag you up. Yeah. And like, the salamacca's had quite a few surgical tools.

So it was like, they were like, oh, yeah, we got to beat you up. So it looks good. It's like, all right. I wanted to ask you if you thought that might. Did you understand Mike's plan in the, the shit was like, Mike like you're going to run and Victor's going to shoot you to make it quick? instead of them performing open heart surgery on you? You're going to be able to get out of the zip ties and you're going to run.

And our guy is just going to put you down quick. Right. Because they're not going to do it that way. Nobody really likes Victor very much. No. I mean, we know what happens to him. I want to circle back, though, because I thought you made a really, really great point just then

about Nacho's fate being an illustration of this show's entire thematic purpose, right? which is there was a great piece I think the New Yorker ran this week talking about it and I don't I really don't have a dog in the witch show is better fight I think that's kind of a popular topic to weigh in on but I did appreciate the New Yorker framing because it was basically like

Better Call Saul is best viewed as a corrective to Breaking Bad. Not that there was anything necessarily wrong with Breaking Bad, but the framing of it was that no matter what happened we would be rooting for Walter no matter how evil he got and it was the same difficult

man problem that faced that David Chase faced with Tony Soprano. He kept showing people the monster and everyone was like, Dr. Frankenstein is so clever. The thing we were talking about before, again, this is one of those great, maybe the best example of when what's on the screen mirrors what's happening off of it. Breaking Bad was so audacious with its challenges, challenging it creatively to like how can our characters best this? And with a character like Walter, he would to always use his brain and his scientific acumen to find a way out of it. I mean, remember magnets bitch? I mean, it was just outrageous the extent that they would go to and it would work. Mike is in a very different, more damaged and kind of beautiful way, a similar character because

he always gets out of it. He can always find a way to go to Mexico, extract someone. I really love the yada yadaing of actually getting nacho back. We just saw once again, he's figured out a truck with a water. I mean, who cares? We just know Mike can do that. So that, so that was really smart that they didn't waste time on that. But what you were saying that I really responded to is, I'm better call Saul, ultimately there are no moves left. And when you are characters who believe either that you are making small decisions without seeing that every small decision leads to a bigger one,

or if you're someone like Jimmy slash Saul who believes there is always a play, there is nothing more devastating, right, when you're suddenly out of moves. So I think that that is a really well-observed example of it. I also think it speaks to the nature of a better call salt in its overall design, which I know I kind of dinged at the beginning for having like two main characters and three stories, whatever. One thing that is absolutely the case and that's absolutely an improvement that we're seeing bear dividends in the season, is that because they had a sense, a deeper sense of what they were doing and where they were going,

all the characters that were on the board in season one will be the significant chess pieces for season. That was not the case with Breaking Bad, where they were literally making it up as they went along. And so it's not just Jesse isn't going to die, he's going to become the second protagonist. It's also that repeatedly they would have to introduce new villains or new antagonists or play out aspects of their larger story with people. Jesse Plumman. Yeah. And so, okay, it's Jesse Plumman. So it's going to be awesome.

But it's not exactly the same thing as wondering for three years, why is Patrick Fabian on the show? oh, because Howard represents, you know, in many ways, the final boss that Jimmy's been raging against his whole life. And this doesn't seem like it's going to particularly end well. And similarly, Nacho there from the beginning, his arc is significant. So when these terrible things happen that we know they're going to happen anyway in the final season of a show like this, they're happening to people that we've been spending all this time with. And that just, that just hits different. The playoffs are here.

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or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Well, okay, so there's another thing I think we need to talk about with this. And not to make it about Kim. But Nacho is put in an impossible decision where he has to, an impossible position where he has to make this decision. It's either going to be his possible survival or his father. It's not, you can't have both.

In this episode, Kim, very plainly presents Jimmy with this situation where it's like you can either be a friend of the cartel or a rat. There's now a binary of your existence. You cannot be a cool lawyer guy who may have helped out a few dudes, here or there, but ultimately it's you and me, and we're trying to keep slowly moving up the food chain of the Albuquerque, you know, class system. Demi Mond.

Yeah. Now, it's like you only have two choices. You know, you can only be Jimmy McGill, who is breaking your confidentiality and your privilege with your client to this Albuquerque DA, or you can literally just go full cartel back. And I dare say I don't think Jimmy understands the implications of his decisions on Kim yet.

And I was curious whether you thought Kim understands it or is starting to because I think those first two episodes, it's like Kim's breaking bad. Kim's got the hooded eyes of darkness outside of the Kettleman's offices. Kim is the one being like, what if we did something more audacious? What if we did something more elaborate to punish and to humiliate? and she has that conversation with the DA and she comes back to Jimmy and in that moment I wonder whether, I mean it's such an incredible scene

but I wonder whether Kim is now regretting where she is or whether she doesn't even know how deep she is and how deep they are. Well, I really love the way they've been painting her. You know, the run of track from her conversation with Jimmy in the season finale of the previous season where she's just like,

you know, they're just having hamburgers and ice cream in the same hotel I filmed Breyer Patch in. And sorry, I had to. And, you know, she's pushing it.

She's pushing it. And that began some of that issue, Breaking Bad Talk, right? And then in this season, and they're married and they're united. But then we get to the scenes in last week's episode,

the Kettlemans, you know, you see that the fire that burns in her is a different flame that's in, Jimmy, you know, I think that they both share a deep resentment at the just societal unfairness of America, right? Like, of how the Howards can keep climbing.

Yeah. And everyone else kind of gets shit on. And Kim sees that when she's doing her pro bono work because it's like the poor kid who gets caught while the rich kid does the actual robbery. But it is not her own injury. that is being performed. And I think that that's another brilliant thing that the show did very meticulously and surgically over the previous seasons

is that what we understand every, we understand Saul Goodman because of the psychological harm done to Jimmy McGill and how everything that he does is still related to Chuck, is still related to the first, I was going to say 30 years of his life,

but it's Bob Odenkirk so we could say 55 years, you know, we can fudge it. That is, it is personal. it is not business. For her, you know, it's still a little bit, the core of her being is still strong. But to the greater point that you made about, you know,

small steps leading to larger ones, she's married to him now. And it is no longer an abstract of, I want to keep him out of trouble, or we're going to do a con at a bar and not hurt anyone, and be Robin Hoods, basically. Yeah.

You know, I think she's been able to justify that. But the specter of cartel, and cartel violence is just way too, it's way too large. And so, you know, this isn't, this isn't a spoiler. This is what we thought was coming for multiple seasons. Not her necessary, not necessarily that she will die, but that she is a tragedy. You know, what has happened to her is the tragedy of this series. And this is when we start to see it.

I mean, Ray Sehorns face in the office of the prosecutor, right, when she just goes completely still, which is legal training, right? Like, she's really good at poker facing it and being professional and, you know, having people just... She doesn't... I would love to have her negotiate my next deal with Bill. I've been joking that I want Rich Paul to do it, but Ray C. Horn being like, that's very interesting.

Thank you for telling me. What do you want? Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. I love that. And I love that it's the... This is what... This is the benefit of all the time we've spent with all of the scenes in the first

two seasons that we felt were maybe minor, right? They are just all leading. They themselves are small steps leading to the larger ones. She's playing the same character now, but the circumstances have changed so gradually. It's still just a beautiful machine that they've done. And I love those quieter moments now when we can just sort of sit back and admire it. Yeah, I mean, there's no really way to speculate. I'm actually in no rush to finish the series.

You know what I mean? For despite how tense it is and stressful it is. I find it to be honestly gorgeous. Like, if possible, I feel like the, uh, the compositions and the, the, the, the, the sort of cinematography have gotten more and more rich to the point now where there are no traditional shots. Like, there aren't really masters and, and, you know, over the shoulder shots anymore. It's all shot through the bottom of a shattered piece of glass that will be, you know, nacho's brief respite from torture. you know, or, you know, these like kind of just beautiful angles that they find for the most ordinary conversational scenes.

But, you know, I do have, I do feel like very much like the nacho thing is some sort of, it portends very poorly for Kim, you know. And it'll be fascinating. I've been a victim or I've been guilty of trying to reverse engineer this show from what we know from Breaking Bad, whether it's because of, you know, Mike and Gus's seemingly close relationship in Breaking Bad, Bad that would suggest Mike is not going to take Nacho's death that personally for too long, at least, or maybe Gus turns around and puts Kaylee in harm's way. I have no idea, like, what is going to connect those two. Obviously, Kim's not in Breaking Bad. And Nacho's presence is still in Breaking Bad. You know what I mean?

He does say, was it Ignatio or was it Lalo? Yeah, that part is odd only because Jimmy had nothing to do with any of this. and it's still with the impression that Lalo's dead. So clearly the story of Nacho, or as he says in the show, Ignacio, being involved in the Lalo thing that leads to whatever Lalo is coming back to do is going to have to have a big imprint on Jimmy for him to be blurting that out. And the show, you know, do I care if that lines up? No, but they care.

So I'm expecting it to be done and to be done well. And I think that what you're hinting at is important because they've had a lot of time to think about this in particular, and they are the types of writers, I think, that do think about it, which is, I think Emily Nussbaum, with the New Yorker expressed this first, and I've always really admired and agreed with it, which is that Breaking Bad uniquely ended twice, right? That ends with, well, Asimandias is the crescendo, one of the greatest episodes of television ever made. And then there's almost a choose-your-own-adventure ending. There's a version of the world where Granite State, where Walter ends his life alone with useless barrels of money in New Hampshire, is the end of the show.

And it is low-key and small-bore and devastating. And then there's the actual finale of the show, or at least in terms of how it aired, it was the actual official finale, where he comes roaring back, writes all the wrongs, and dies in a blaze of glory. And you can kind of pick which one feels right to you. And I think, and I think I really, I respect that,

that they gave us both versions. But I do think that they've spent a lot of time considering what that means now and what that would mean for this show and how they judge, and view their characters and what they want to leave us with. So I think it's in play

that Gene in Omaha gets a happy ending and finds Kim, you know, and is together with her. I think it's in play, which is interesting, but I'm in no hurry to find out

what happens. I'm very interested in finding out how they decided to end up there. And also I was wondering, this is a broader question and one we can talk about through the rest of the season, but this show,

this whole enterprise, both shows, has some pretty devastating things to say about family, like having one, you know? Like, and the ability to both not to be too glib and reference that Atlantic cover that was actually about feminism, about like, can you have it all? Do men deserve to love people because they just hurt them? Like, that is literally what the show is, right? Like, nach. It's basically like, if you love someone in your life, are they going to be on the other end of Mike's sniper rifle?

inevitably on this show, they will be. The only people who are successful for whatever that means, I mean, are ones who have gone through the fire and lost it already. As soon as you have anyone, you're doomed. And that's not new. That was the case in Breaking Bad, you know, with why was Mike doing this? Oh, we found out it was for his granddaughter. That was why he did everything.

Gus, perhaps the most successful sociopath, it's because of what happened to his brother, right, that he didn't have anyone at all anymore. And so he could just go full beast mode for the rest of his life. It's pretty gnarly. It's pretty bleak. And Kim, who I think has shed his family.

Yeah. Jimmy has no family. Jimmy has no family. He doesn't go along with her mom, right? Yeah. And so, but the fact that they've now bound themselves to each other as family, is the, I mean, in many ways that we'll probably look back on that decision as fatal as, you mentioned that. It's like, their only family in these legally binding terms. You know, they chose to be married because it made their, they gave them spousal privilege.

I still feel like every time they kiss, I'm like, are you sure? Yeah, sure you love me? Like, it's like that because like you guys can be best friends and partners in crime and law. And I think that there's a lot of like beauty in their relationship and the way. that they eat together and the way that they work together and the way that they help one another prepare and train. But it's not like this like... It's a good point. I mean, they don't have a ton of chemistry.

This Romeo and Juliet thing where we can't stay apart from one another, you know? It's a really interesting point. And I'm sure they've considered this and it's intentional to a degree. I mean, it's not romantic. It has always been a little bit transactional. I think that they deeply love each other

in their damaged ability to love, right? But you're totally right. there's a moment in this episode where she kisses him. And I was like, oh, right, forgot. Or when I rewatch the season finale and they're under the sheets together, I'm like, maybe they were just cold.

No, because they wake up together the other, like in the first episode of this season, and they're like, hello. And I'm just kind of like, people usually don't. Like they actually seem sincerely happy to spend all of their available time with one another.

But it's not like this, again, Breaking Bad is not about destiny and fate, nor is it about Star Cross lovers. It's about people who make these little decisions, and it's such a great observation that, like, the people who live longest on Breaking Bad or in the Better Call Saul world are the ones who shed their family.

And that is true also for Walter to some extent. Yes, but it's also a really, it's a good point to make in light of, in that New Yorker piece, which maybe we could tweet out or put in the show notes or whatever. I thought it was really interesting. it talked about something, and we've mentioned this before too,

but the way the show hits different with everyone coming back older, like it's, they don't try to hide it. They can't hide it. Like, Hewell looks different. Everybody looks different than they did when they were on Breaking Bad, and this is happening years before that.

But I think in some cases, it really helps the drama play out, because the Kim and Jimmy relationship is definitely an older person's vision of a successful partnership in the way that the camera lingers most lovingly season after season on Kim brushing her teeth before bed and her little like athleisure tank tops like and that is the kind of like quotidian intimacy that can define us you know very contented life it's not hot for each other legal associates you know which I guess theoretically they were supposed to be at least David.

Kelly is like, tell me more. Exactly. I just sold that straight to series to Hulu. It's like, what if Jim and McGill and Kim Wexler love to get it on? It's Jim and Kim coming this fall to the CW. Yeah, it's a very, very different thing. And I think that's also one of the reasons why the show is so successful. It's very elegiacic.

It's very like it comes chronologically before, but it does feel like a much more grave and mature storytelling exercise than Breaking Bad was. We are at a point now with Banks, though, where they're going to need, like, Thanos to touch him with the Infinity Gauntlet for him to, like, go to his 2002 age, you know? He, him, I don't know, like, there's something,

I don't know whether it's... He looks good as hell, but he is definitely much older than he was. I know, but I also have to say, maybe this is projection, but I am a very big fan of the Switch that's some older men and women can pull, which is just like,

okay, now I have to pay attention to this. So I'm going to work an enormous amount to just be actively better and more fit than I was when I didn't have to worry about it. And like, Oden Kirk obviously did take in,

you know, whatever, and he looks diesel. Nobody. Yeah. Oh, right. I meant his version of taken, right?

Yes. But Banks is, banks looks incredible. Maybe Banks has done his version of taken. He just never, it never came. out. It was just part of his like acting regime, you know? I talked about this a couple years ago, but that dude is the mayor of Albuquerque.

Like I was on a plane with him a couple times. I saw him at the beautiful Los Poblanos resort, just like wearing a guy a bearer shirt, holding a cocktail and taking pictures with everyone, while peacocks frolics behind him. Like his life's, his life's good. Like he, Kim Dickens on the way to set, flew with him once and they sat next to each other. And he was just like, here's where he'd get your apartment. Here's where you spend your time. It's a nice life. You know, he just basically like, he and his wife have a condo. They fly in, they fly out. He wanders out into the desert for a couple of days of the time comes back and everybody's just like, that's the best character actor alive. I mean, I do, like the scene when they, they did

the shot of him with a sniper rifle. And I was like, he's not lying in the dirt. I was like, that's not him. I was like, that's just not him. They, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they need a stunt performer for him, but it's only to lie prone on the ground. Yeah. That, that's what it is. Is there anything else you wanted to say? about this season so far in general, since you didn't get a chance to public a comment on the first two episodes? No, just to say that the experience with the show, whether it's one year off or two years off, it's just, I feel like Charlie Brown with the football, where it's like I get so excited for it to come back because I'm so warm with affection and love for the series and the production and everything.

And then it comes back, and I have basically forgotten every single thing about the show. And I forget. Who are the guys in Peru that they blame everything on? I was like, those guys are breaking bad? I can't remember. Like, do they show up and... I had no idea. And also...

But I forget that... I just forget that the show just doesn't give a fuck about your expectations in terms of its pace. You know, that like, here we go. That whole sequence with Not just condo, with the young women, and then the safe. and then the Peruvian stuff. I mean, there's a different, less good version of the show

where there's like, yeah, we took care of his place. But this show gives 20 minutes to process always. Because that winds up being, I think, a scene where Mike is doing Gus's bidding, but has a moment where he can take those two identity cards and obscure nachos exit strategy from Gus. Right? And that he could theoretically maybe get the card, although not just dad is very clear

that he's not leaving his upholstery shop. He is not going anywhere. No, the show is flexing in a way that I don't even know if it did in the first two seasons where it built that whole, I was referring to it before, that whole beautiful opening montage only to linger on some piece of shit in the gutter.

I'm like, I'm sorry, what? I, if you knew that that was Kim's beloved tequila bottle stopper, like, congratulations, you eat you eat free tonight at Benegins. At El Camino Restaurant? Yeah. No mortal knows what that is.

Few mortals could see what it was, despite the high-definition televisions many of us have, you know. And so I respect the show now. It's not even going to hold your hand. It is making the show for itself, for its mythology, for its legacy, and for the future, when the majority of people who haven't watched it yet, and also probably everyone is going to re-watch it, is going to just binge the shit out of it and will immediately be like, hey, cattlemen's are back, as opposed to like, she looks familiar. Yeah.

Which is my experience. Betsy, okay, Breaking Bad Wikipedia. You're now my most used website other than the NBA schedule like results on Google. Why don't we wrap it up there? It was just a tremendous episode.

Shout out Michael Mando. I hope he gets rewarded for his incredible, if brief performance this season, his face on the fucking phone. I am never going to forget it when he's talking to his father. That was a beautiful scene.

And it just holds it all in and then kind of lets it out and then decides to die. And it's just amazing. It's an amazing, and it's one of, I don't know how many takes they did of that. But I'm happy you mention that before we wrap up just because I was just imagining what it must have been like to be on set, watching this actor deliver, not knowing what he's going to deliver and know that the cameras are rolling. And then know in that moment, he did all of it. And knowing, you know, the way actors are, he probably didn't know he did it.

You know, he probably felt exposed or nervous or wanted to run a goat again or thought maybe they'd use the second one. But that was everything. Yeah. It was great seeing you again, man. Thank you to Kai McMuller for producing us. We should do it again sometime. We should podcast again. Maybe we should talk about winning time, other shows.

I heard, I was away for a long time. I heard that there were a lot of TV shows on in my absence, which is why. It's not even that, Andy, as much as what's coming. Really? Winter is coming in the spring now. It's just so much stuff. Barry Leone City, Saul, all on. You're out on those shows?

No, that's fine. But I do think it's important that in winning time I want to circle back to, but I do think it's important that we hold Thursday to talk about my feelings about watching no time to die on a plane and also maybe I could just ask some follow-ups about your drug church interview because I've just been compiling a dossier

and I just thought that could be Thursday. I have some footage from a... Well, it's not my footage, but I can send you some cool links of videos from the drug church show that I went to. I would love to see that. I would love to see that. I'd love to forward that footage to the CDC

and get their thoughts on just that, you know, just protocols that were taken. Take your mask. often, would you like a complimentary bag of peanuts? That's fair. That's fair. Kaya produced this. We will be back on Thursday to chat about no time to die.

Can't wait. Talk to you guys soon. It's the best, best podcast on the internet.