The Watch - ‘Better Call Saul’ Season Finale and Talking With ‘Maniac’ Creator Patrick Somerville | The Watch (Ep. 297)

Episode Date: October 12, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald get together to talk about the finale of Season 4 of ‘Better Call Saul’ (5:43) and what’s next for the series (12:35). Then they are joined by the creator of Netflix’s ‘Maniac,’ Patrick Somerville, to talk about the process of creating the show (18:01) and what it was like to work with Cary Fukunaga, Emma Stone, Jonah Hill, and more (36:41). Read Miles Surrey on the fourth season of 'Better Call Saul' here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Liz Kelly, and I want to tell you about the second annual Ringer NBA Palooza we have going on next week on Tuesday, October 16th. We'll be streaming a live marathon countdown to tip off with Bill Simmons and the Ringer NBA crew, featuring live podcasts, special guests, Ringer original shorts, and culminating in a Sixers Celtics watch party. You can check it out live on Tuesday across all of our social media platforms. And don't forget to check out a brand new NBA Paloza merch on the Ringer.com slash shop. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me live from a hot springs in New Mexico. It's Andy Greenwald! You know, I never made it to any hot springs. There are apparently places of great rest and relaxation there. It's a great place to go before you die. That I can attest to.

It is Thursday. We were joined today by Patrick Sons. Somerville, co-creator, head writer, executive producer of Maniac. A really great guy. A nice conversation with him about Maniac, about The Leftovers, about the Bridge, about Andy's past film TV criticism. I feel like for people who are listening, we definitely, Chris and I watched all of Maniac before we had this conversation. I don't think we really spoil anything. I don't really know that you can spoil Maniac.

That's the thing. So I encourage you, I thought it was great to talk to him about the process, which I think is interesting to anyone who's a fan of TV. So I think you should feel fairly comfortable, but if you are close to finishing, finish the season first. Yeah, I think it's more of, it was such a unique production in terms of, and he talks about this, of it being something that had stars attached, had a director attached as Patrick came in to break the world. To create the show.

Yeah, to create the show and to write the show and give an angle for the show. So it's a really, really cool conversation with Patrick Somerville. I hope we'll come back sometime soon, maybe after the Brewers won the World Series, not to jinx them. We're going to talk a little bit about the season finale of Better Call Saul. Oh, let me just say one bit of house cleaning. This feels surreal to even say out loud, but this Sunday, CNN is airing a new episode of Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown.

As anyone who's, you know, a long-time listener of this podcast, know how much Tony Bourdain meant to me and to Chris, huge fans, huge fans of the show, kind of in awe of what the 0.0 family has been able to do this season. Cobbling together sounds dismissive, creating episodes out of what was. left behind, basically. And this week's episode is, I guess, a tribute to Tony's impact on people and on the world and on culture. And I was incredibly fortunate, humbled, totally humbled,

and still kind of in shock to be interviewed for it. Incredible guys from the show, Morgan Fallon, the director, who worked with Tony for many years, came to my house and gave me the chance to talk about Tony and my brief interactions with him, but the effect that he had on me and I think the effect he had on culture. I have no idea if they used any of it, but, you know, it is a lifelong, well, not lifelong, but as long as he's been a figure in my life, it was a dream to be a part of a project of his. It's painful to even think about how it ended up happening, but the fact that I was able to contribute in a tiny way was just beyond humbling and one of the biggest privileges of my career. And clearly there are other people interviewed who were more

important to Tony in his life and to his work. And so for them alone, I encourage people to watch it. But I'm, yeah, I just want to let people know. Yeah, you know, like the, this whole last couple of months, I've been, it's been accumulating on my DVR. And I've been seeing it when I open up iTunes. Like, I have a couple of his shows and I have my favorite episodes that I've bought so that, like, I'll kind of always have them if I want to watch one on a plane or something like that. And this is a show for, I think, for Andy and Fry, that not only was it an education and a passport to the world and an introduction to all sorts of cuisine and people and music and things.

It was also a comfort for us both. We would have reruns of Bordane. I just had like 25 Bordane's like on my DVR and if I was like just cleaning the house or sitting around and I had 25 minutes to kill, I would watch one of those. I stopped doing that. You know, I find it almost too sad to do it.

But I will say this. One of the things that you just read over and over and over again about CPCZ and the making of this show is just how instrumental and incredible the people around him were and how they've been soldiering through to put this show up. And I started watching them again because of that, and I knew that you were going to be on. And I encourage everybody to watch on Sunday whether or not you make the final cut.

I'm sure you should, you will. You loved him and you were really articulate about him. But yeah, it's just been such a weird few months because of its presence. I actually, like I'm kind of surprised just talking out of the mic just still how raw it feels to think about or talk about as someone who, you know, only met him a handful of times. But the real tribute here, and I hope I was able to express it on a microphone, I'm sure other people did, is the team around him.

Chris Collins and Lydia Tanaglia from 0.0, Morgan Fallon, who I mentioned, who came over, another producer, John C. and Frani came over, Helen Cho, who was by his side throughout the last 10 years of his career. These are truly talented, good people whose lives were completely shaped and changed by Tony, but they changed his life, too, you know, and affected him. And it really was, even in the one day they were over at my house, you know, you could see the relationship that all these people had worked together for all this time had created and how seriously they took every frame of this show.

They took no plays off, and they have not this final season either. It's amazing to watch. So that's Sunday. This past Monday was the fourth season finale. Yeah, a better call Saul. We're going to talk about it. I hope people have watched it. Yeah.

This won't be a tremendously long segment because I thought it was an interesting It's interesting to get to points in this story that I think we all know eventually where most of it has to go And it's the process that leads up to these mile markers That I think I enjoy more than the actual And you know, we'll start spoiler now Then turning around and saying it's all good man

You know? Yeah That's the part where I'm like oh, okay but it's all the little things that build up to these big things that I enjoy watching. And particularly in that moment, it's Kim's scene. Odenkirk can play Saul Goodman in his sleep, and it really was more about playing Jimmy McGill that was surprising and challenging, now retaining whatever shreds of Jimmy McGill exist in this next season,

and if there's another season after that, we don't know. That'll be the challenge and be the interesting thing in watching that performance. But framing the transformation and lingering on Kim's face, when she realizes the depth. And pulling away from her with the camera. The sociopathy that she's realizing she's now, you know, completely entwined with, landed for me. But I was really entranced and blown away by the whole Verner thing. It's the bulk of the episode.

It was an episode where what was going to happen to Mike felt a little bit more, not what was going to happen to him, but how things were going to play for him, felt more at risk or in flux than they have in recent seasons of the show, which I appreciated. But the way that they played this out from the small procedural details that you know they just talked about for days in the room about the chewing gum, losing Lalo, who, by the way, Tony Dalton's performance remains, like, that's the third heat on the show now for the season to come that I'm very excited about. Down to what it would mean for Mike to find him, what it would mean for Mike to make the decision that he has to make and to do the things that he has to do, There's thought given into every rung of the latter, which I appreciate. And I got to say, the privilege of a show that really is just pure process,

that it gives us the space to think about these things and watch them unfold. I was trying to think about why I cared about the show and why I've come back to the show that we have on this podcast. And like seeing how every little step matters, that's dramatically inert. That's just like a platitude. Yeah, it's like a greeting card stuff, right? And then I was thinking about when we realize that in our life, right? And do you remember, I was thinking about high school and you write your college applications and people are like, you better get serious, man, because this is going to affect the rest of your life. And then you become an adult and you're like, well, I probably was this could have found my way here.

Like there were other paths to get here potentially, right? Yeah. And I think it's more about the decision you make about where or how you get into college or if you go to college is just another decision. It's not necessarily like I got into this school or I got into that school. And I'm sure for a lot of people, that does matter a lot. I'm just saying it's just another one of the thousand million decisions that you're going to make. And when you make that decision, you have no idea how that's going to change 55 decisions to come. Yeah, it's Butterfly Effect.

And the other thing that really put this into relief for me is to give you the full context of my experience watching the show. I didn't watch it when it aired Monday. I watched it after I attended Curriculum Night for Kindergarten last night. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I get it now from a position of, you know, great privilege and middle age or whatever I'm in. Every fucking decision did matter. It's just funny which ones we spotlight, right? And so thinking that way and thinking about life that way and then the opportunity to think about art that way and drama that way with this show, for some reason it was a different window to watch it.

I know we've been using these words like process and whether the fact that we know where these things are going neuters the storytelling or whatever. But this was an episode that to me, the additions they did, right? The flashback scene with Chuck, the gravity of what the Super Lab meant to Mike and what it cost. The Catherine Eskizdo scene where you kind of explains, yeah. All of that didn't feel like vamping or filler to me. It felt like load-bearing, emotional load-bearing stuff that really paid off and added texture to everything that we already know. Yeah, I think that we've been talking about a little, we talk about widescreen and close-ups, and I've been thinking about it more. I don't know if this is a more apt metaphor for it, but it's standing close to a painting.

And so we already know what the painting, ultimately, the huge painting in the Philadelphia Art Museum is going to look like. But when you stand right up close to that Van Gogh, and you see the way he accounts for sunlight hitting this part of the meadow versus that part of the meadow. And, oh, did you notice that there's a woman standing next to the barn? This is the brush throws. Exactly. Yeah. And it's all about texture. You start to notice different things

about what you think are supposed to be your, and we talked a little bit about this with Patrick, about what your expectations are for things like character development. What arc does this person have to go on? And this whole time we're like, what's going to happen to Kim? I don't know what's going to happen to Kim. I don't know what's going to happen to Kim now, legitimately, because I was watching that Mike stuff.

And I was like, you know what, this isn't like a he can't come back from here a moment from Mike. Mike actually chose to do this because he knew that he could provide a more humane exit for this guy than if Gus had sent his dudes out. And he probably saved Werner's wife's life and gave her some semblance of not, if not closure, she got to hear his voice again.

And in some ways that that was heroic in and of itself. And he's no more in it or not in it than he was before this happened. And he also chose to keep going with Gus. Yeah, the reminder here, what's nice is that it was a reminder wasn't a lesson. He's felt bulletproof, which is an ironic thing to say.

for people who have watched Breaking Bad, but he's felt bulletproof and fun because he fixes everything and he floats above it and he takes care of everything. What this was for me was a reminder that he is touchable. Yeah.

That he has found himself with somehow, so far with dignity and with some voice that he can use under the thumb of, you know, a psychopath on some level, right? A complete villainous mastermind. And he does not have

the wiggle room that he thought he had. Oh, absolutely not. His voice was heard. There are other people in that organization who probably couldn't even speak up or speak back. Right. But he was a soldier, you know, and that was a nice reminder. It's just, again, it's like what we always say about the show. It has a real, people really, the people making the show really understand the characters

at every moment, which is harder than it sounds. And also, I just want to commend you for just low-key pointing out to people that you grew up near the Philadelphia Art Museum. And probably on, like, lonely weeknights would just wander its halls. Sure. I love to go see a little twombly. where do you think things go from here to wrap things up here I've said this after every season of the show but I feel like there's only one season left I say this knowing we had a conversation the other day

about how these guys just seemed to enjoy it and they could probably keep keep going if they wanted to I think there's two left I guess so it depends on whether or not you think that there's going to be that any of this any of better call Saul is going to be post bad

oh right there's that aspect that's right so I feel like I guess I'm interested in seeing the full transformation of Saul Goodman and how he becomes a part of the operation, basically. He's working for Gus Fring himself in the way that the Saul and Mike storylines become more intertwined than they have been for the last two years. I'm curious about Kim. But I think you're right. Like Kim's fate, damage has been done to her, you know, and it's a very buttercalls salt damage. It's not that she gets taken out to the desert and shot. It's, look what she's steered her life into. Yeah, the question is, is the Cinebun stuff an afterthought?

Is there a CODA or is there a season where Gene reclaims Jimmy McGill or whatever? Or whatever is still out there for him. Maybe that's a conversation there. It turns into a better clean gene. Ooh. Like that. Yeah. Did you just come up with that or have you been workshopping that?

Just call me. I'm not hard to find. I'm out here. You're always here in this podcast studio. All right, Greenwald. We're going to talk to Patrick Somerville. But first, we're going to take a quick break from our sponsor. We'll be talking Monday briefly.

I think we'll talk about the Romanoffs if I can give you that homework. I will definitely watch some Romanovs. Well, it's just one. There's only one coming out. I thought they were dropping three at first. Two or three? Well, we'll watch a Romanoffs or two. They're 90 minutes, so don't over-commit here.

Thank you for not making me tell people how long the episodes work. So we'll have Romanoffs and a couple of interviews. I'm going feet first into the edit next week. So you'll be on the phone. And then Thursday you'll be on the phone. And then, you know, I'm sure the rotating guests that you'll have coming in. What are you talking about? Oh, I'm sorry.

Are the mic still on? Oh, I'll be here. All right, Patrick Somerville coming up. First, a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by ADT. ADT can design and install a smart home just for you, backed by 24-7 protection. You can explore the vast number of things you can do

with your secure smart home, like doorman service, which is an ADT automation that unlocks the door for packages, friends or your kids, or turn-down service, an ADT automation that arms your system, locks your doors, and turns down your lights and thermostat. It's all controlled. from the ADT app or the sound of your voice and backed by 24-7 protection.

And don't worry about installing and configuring your system. ADT will DIY do it for you. Just visit ADT.com slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home just for you. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by ExpressVPN. You're being tracked online. By social media sites, marketing companies, and your mobile or internet provider.

Not only can they record your browsing history, but they often sell it to other corporations for profit. Take back your privacy with ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN has easy to use apps that run seamlessly in the background, your computer, phone, and tablet. Turning on ExpressVPN protection only takes one click. It secures and anonymizes your internet browsing by encrypting your data and hiding your public IP address.

ExpressVPN is rated the number one VPN service by TechRadar, and it comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee and costs less than $7 a month. so if you ever use public Wi-Fi or don't want to hand over your online history to your internet provider, ExpressVPN is the solution. Let me tell you two reasons why you should really think hard about getting ExpressVPN. One, read the newspaper. Data and data privacy and securing your data is a huge issue these days. And ExpressVPN can be one of your number one assistance in making sure that your data is secure.

Number two, most of us are running around like crazy jumping on this. Starbucks Wi-Fi, jumping on this airport Wi-Fi. We're running around. We're on different networks. Don't you want a little bit of security, that safety blanket of knowing that you're encrypted? That's where ExpressVPN comes in. Protect your online activity today and find out how you can get three months free at ExpressVPN.com slash watch. That's E-X-P-R-E-S-V-P-N-com. For three months free with a one-year package, visit ExpressVPN.com slash watch to learn more. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Are you hiring?

Every business needs great people and better ways to find them. Something better than posting your job online and just praying the right people see them. ZipRecruiter knew there was a smarter way, so they built a platform that finds the right job candidates for you. ZipRecruiter learns what you're looking for, identifies people with the right experience, and invites them to apply for your job. These invitations have revolutionized how you find your next hire. In fact, 80% of employers who post a job on Ziprocutter. Get a quality candidate through the site in just one day. And ZipRecruiter doesn't stop there.

They even spotlight the strongest applications you receive, so you never miss a great match. The right candidates are out there. ZipRecruiter is how you find them. Businesses of all sizes trust ZipRecruiter for their hiring needs. Right now, our listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right. Free. Just go to ZipRecruiter.com slash watch.

That's ziprecruiter.com. ZipRecruiter.com slash watch. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. We are now thrilled to be joined by the Christian... No, I'm not going to do the Christian Yellet's joke. Thrill to be joined by Milwaukee Brewer Superfan. My friend, Patrick Somerville, the creator of Maniac, the co-showrunner, writer, co-adaptor. You have a lot of titles on this on his baby.

Yeah. Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks. Thanks for having, guys. Patrick, we're so happy to have you here on the Sunset Gower Studio a lot while the Maniac Billboard across the street from Netflix. Still there. Still halfway there. Still there.

Right now it says, YAC. I think you guys You guys replace those arc. Yeah, well, the shows come hot and fast on the Netflix. That chilling adventures of Sabrina thing

is coming in fast, but we still have a little window here. Congratulations. Thank you. On the show. Thank you. We're very happy to have you here to talk about it.

Despite what I told you, this is not primarily going to be about preschools on the east side of Los Angeles. We can talk preschool, though, if you want. Or the NL Central. Those are topics of equal

disinterest to Chris Ryan, so we've got to keep him in the next. We want to talk about, so if everyone at this table has seen every episode of Maniac, I assume Patrick you have as well. I have. Guy has too. Oh, great. Okay, so this is a safe space.

For listeners, we are going to talk about the whole thing. But I definitely wanted to begin with a little more processed stuff because I was speaking to you when this whole thing was coming together. And I just feel like it's such a bizarre convergence of events and people that you've found yourself a part of, right? And we can talk about how this came to you because originally this was a Scandinavian format. Norwegian show. A Norwegian show called Maniac that Netflix,

or is it Netflix or Paramount? It was anonymous content. That kind of pulled it out of the ether and they took it to Kerry and Carrie I think was intrigued by a number of elements of that show and then he went to Emma and and he went to Jonah.

And Netflix sort of, I think, caught wind of this project around that part of the process. That's sort of the package building moments in TV show creation, which is matters more now, I think, than it did when I first started, even five years ago. And Netflix kind of took it off the table as a show that they wanted to make, even though there wasn't really a take. You know, there was a concept, and it was a

Walter Middy concept, but even beyond that, there wasn't that big of a take. And so at this point, everyone's enthusiastic about is the prospect of working together, right? Netflix wants to work with Carrie and Carrie wants to work with Emma Jonah. They want to work together again. They want to work with Carrie. So there's goodwill, but there's no there there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think maybe the one little extra piece is that I think Carrie was excited about being

able to shoot in multiple genres in the same show. Right. I think as a director, I think that was interesting to him and a challenge and all the things that make a project exciting one. It's so abstract. So it came to you as this, were you

asked to watch the Norwegian and show, or were you just asked to provide ideas of what a show with this quality of people involved in it and with this title could be? It wasn't, it was a little bit more general of a conversation, and

they had been talking to writers for a long time. I knew, I remember reading them. I don't actually have no idea. We'll dunk on that later. It was, I remember reading in the trades about the show when the left

The leftovers third season room was just getting going. Which is what you were working on. And that's where I was. And then I had my first conversation with Carrie via Skype in June of 2016, which we had two weeks left in the leftovers room. So that search had been going on a long time. And when I first talked to anonymous contents about the show, they told me the premise and they told me some of the bigger thoughts.

But they also said, you know, we want someone to make up a tape for how to do this. this show. And the pieces that were there ahead of time had an impact on what the show became as well. There were two leads, essentially, and that was kind of a precondition of the making up of how to do the show. And that fundamentally is different than how the Norwegian show operated with, it does have two main characters, but it's kind of a straight man and complicated man situation. You know, it's Sort of a... Sort of me and Chris. Yeah.

One person is asking questions about the mind of another person. It felt imbalanced in the wrong way, knowing that we had Jonah and Emma both at the front end. So we kind of had to come up with a different way to tell the story. So when you start talking to Kerry, does he have any elements of maybe not even a Bible for the show, but even ideas where he's like, I'm pretty sure I want it to be like this. Because I was wondering about when a lot of the ideas. is about technology and the almost production design, the textures of the show, before you start filling it in, before you start creating the story, does he have that in mind or does that

come after the fact? So much, it's funny watching the show now because quite a lot of it came out of the very first Skype call that he and I had when we were strangers. But I think he had a deep sense that he did not want to set the show in a psychiatric facility because there was something about that that essentially made the humor of the show come out of making fun of mental illness. That show got laughs on moments of like,

look at how our character doesn't understand what's real and not right now. And there's something just not appealing to either of us about that. And so he came to that conversation with the idea of a pharmaceutical trial. And I liked that. I thought that was a good idea.

I had different worries and thoughts and concerns. about how to do the show in that call, but a heightened reality, a different reality felt right to me. And I think at that point it was sort of an intuitive thing, why I didn't quite know. But I essentially thought that the story was going to have to be the story

of two strangers who come to know each other, which for some reason is the hardest story for me to write. It's really difficult to tell a story of two strangers who don't know each other in the beginning of a story who do by the end. And I think that led to all sorts of decisions about splitting the point of view at the front end, about wanting to get to a place

where they were saying very simple things to each other by the end of the show. That was really what I wanted to get to very simple exchanges between two people who had come to know each other. And in the strange intuitive math, I think, of storytelling, I just thought it had to be complicated at the beginning

if it was going to be simple at the end. And so I think that idea of a heightened reality came out of those very first thoughts about how to do the show. Well, I can also see what you're speaking to in terms of difficulty because you intentionally, I think, reject a standard. It's not like a meet-cute situation. It's not necessarily a romantic show in a traditional way. This isn't about people who are wildly attracted to each other or share a more overt or traditional romantic thing between them that they discover or love for something. or whatever it may be, what they end up with is what you said, they know each other at the end, which is a different kind of intimacy.

And I think to track that and to draw 10 episodes of tragic comic drama out of it, it's funny, isn't it? Because a rom-com kind of skips that they know each other. Yes, and they love each other. Yes, and then, unless you have that moment, and I thought you were going for a similar thing, like the graduate ending, where it's like, okay, here we go. Yeah, yeah. Wait, where are we going?

You have a little bit of that at the end here. I just want to be clear, there are no references to other films in Mnia, whatsoever. We want to commend you for a wholly original. You invented elves, which is pretty cool, man. That was a pretty good book. I wrote an essay about fairy stories, and I wrote, yeah, a bunch of novels. They're called Lord of the Rings. No, there's a luck with that, though, for sure.

I know. We're going to try. We're going to try. So the note, yeah, but I will say, too, there was, that was a conversation about the romantic versus, the non-romantic. That was an ongoing conversation in a writer's room when I was by myself writing the first couple of episodes later

on set and in production too. And I think Emma in particular, I think, had a very keen good sense of focusing the story on the non-romantic friendship

side of that axis. Because I think from an acting point of you, you just don't get that many opportunities to play that kind of story. I think I think that she was interested in that. And I think also by the end of this show, their relationship kind of defies categorization by in any way. Because I think he's filling in for her sister in some ways. She is a sibling that maybe he never had. It's not overtly sexual, but there's, it's a romantic element to it. There's something almost like, this is the purest form of, like you're saying, friendship. And they

even say that to one another in the bathroom where they're like, I'm, I'm, because I'm your friend, you know, and that really came across. And in a way, the ambivalence of, or the ambiguity of the last scene, kind of, to me, it was more about that rather than, like, are we doing the right thing? It was more like, we're not necessarily even lovers. We're just like these two people, we are in almost, we're almost like, this is my soul partner, you know? Yeah, and even I would add, is it going to be successful?

Yeah. As a relationship on any level, who knows? You know, they did have a moment, though. We skipped to the end. I did want to go back to the beginning for just a couple other questions. One being a lot of this podcast in the last few weeks has been me recovering from my experience, being on the creative side of it and thinking about being different. Thank you. I was fishing for that.

But basically, you know, it's a lot easier as a critic to default to an autore theory of television because you can just give one person all the credit, all the blame for everything. This experience for me has really been about stripping things apart and realizing the distinct things that directors bring, that actors bring, that producers bring production designers, every aspect of it. Because of the nature of this particular project and how you came in with all these other heavy hitter people attached, what were the extra parts of your job? You're writing something that you have to be proud of and that you're excited about. You're writing something that gets carry excited and fulfills what he wants to direct. And you also have, as executive producers on the show, your two stars who can cherry pick their projects and had to feel very passionate about this in order to make it happen.

yeah and definitely had opinions about about what it should be um it was a very unusual process from the very first day that i wrote any scenes to to now just in the in the order of how things happens it's it's just a different kind of show and that we had a full 20-week writer's room and kerry was out of the country jonah was working on his movie emma was was making the favorite i think, and it was really just us in a vacuum, plotting a course through the 10 episodes. And also, this, my father died a week and a half after the room started. And we broke an episode. I went home, he died, and I was there for two weeks going through all of that. Yeah. As the room, people who didn't really know each other kind of have continued breaking an episode. And then I came back and

and we resumed. And that, I think, you know, that haunted the creative process along the way for me and what ended up getting into the story. But it also was just another strange, sideways thing in the creation of the show. Kerry came back, we started prep, and I think the next thing that happened, which was unusual, was that he needed to engage at a very detailed and granular level about what he thought the story should be and how he wanted it to work. And that created this step of changing the storytelling and finding a third way through, I think, that was a combination of his creative point

of view and my creative point of view. And it's another story of two strangers, too, because I didn't really know Carrie, and Carrie didn't really know me. We had been talking as we went, but we didn't know each other that well. And all of a sudden you have to map your brainwaves together. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing the way shows can often reflect some of the creative process behind it.

Oh, yeah. When I watch Maniac, there's stuff all over it that is just fully like meta and me not even realizing that I was writing about the process of making the show right in the middle of making the show. Are you able to read your mother's successful self-help books now? Have you found some sort of... My mother has actually written to him. historical gardening books.

Oh, man, really? Yeah. That's where it ends. I happen to have two copies of each right here. Let's go through them. So what is, and before we get into the weeds of talking about some of the specifics of the episodes and performances that we both enjoyed, for you, as this became a, I mean, all TV is collaborative, but as this became a more open text collaboration with Carrie, with the actors,

once you had them on set, with all the variables, for you, what was the spine that kept you passionate? Like, what is the kernel of the story that you latched on to? when it was just an idea that you loved at the beginning and you loved now, that you saw through, you know, in the face of all the additions and all the changes and all the happy accidents that happened along the way?

It's a story about loneliness and the antidote to loneliness, really. And yes, there are all sorts of very interesting opportunities. It was a landscape for a show that was very weird and creative and bold and insisted on itself. And we got a lot of space from, from our network and studio to do that.

And that was always exciting. Just there was a kind of improvisational and just sort of, I don't know, energized, creative feeling about the show all the time. And that always kept me going. But really, I think, just the simple story of loneliness and two people coming together and not being quite as lonely at the end. I think it's very simple. and in prestige dramas,

I think that that felt a little subversive to me as well, that it could be that simple, just two people making friends. And it could be kind of dressed in a different way that still hit some of the codes and language of prestige cable, but stayed simpler on the emotional side too. Beyond that, you've worked on now two shows that are set in a sort of altered reality

for lack of a better phrase. How do you come up with the rules when you can really do anything? I'm curious about what the rules were either between you and Kerry or between you and the writers or even everybody involved where you're like, okay,

so what's allowed to happen in this show when anything can happen? It was so different on the leftovers than it was for Maniac. I will say that the leftovers for it as sort of speculative and high concept the conceit was, was actually, I found to be very grounded

for the 16 episodes leading up to the International Assassin episode. And so we had this inertia of groundedness going for us for International Assassin and a kind of unexpectedness that nobody knew what was going to happen in Episode 17. And, you know, the other element that was very different about that episode, it was that Kevin still had his Kevinness to him. And that fully changes the rules of the storytelling, because your main character is basically, along with the audience,

trying to suss out what is happening around him throughout the episode. And you feel safer somehow, I think, in International Assassinate. So one of the rules in the maniac versions of the reflections was that they did not take their essential identity with them, at least on the surface, into those places. They were new people. And you can imagine, I mean, you saw when you watch the show, me bending over backwards, trying to do the kind of absurdist exposition download

in a very compact period of time in order not just to say, like, here's where they are in their story, but here's who they are, and get enough of that out early enough to tell what I hope is a short, compact, satisfying little micro story. Yeah. So that changed everything, the rule that they didn't know. And then the rule of how do they break through

and become Owen and Annie at particularly important emotional times in those stories became another kind of sub-rule that we had to work through. I think the different demands started dictating how the rules evolved. And then on the day, too. You know, Emma in the scene in episode four,

when she's with the mother of the man who would later cause the accident that killed her sister. There wasn't really anything on the page in that scene about when that thing pops and Annie is there and the Linda facade falls away. And yet she just did it. Yeah. You know, she just felt it. And when I watch that scene, I think that she just has such a deep, control over the different layers of the self that are happening.

She just did that. That's just her. There weren't notes involved. She just found it. The thing that's amazing to watch in her performance, and I think in a lot of great acting, is the ability to play emotions that are by nature very uncomfortable and rough and uncontrollable and play them with the precision of like a jazz solo or something, right? That she's tracking the rhythm in a way that we can.

And I think that's true for her performance throughout the entire series. That leads me to a question that I actually had forgotten that I wanted to ask, which is through no fault of your own, you're inheriting the reigning best actress Oscar winner for her next project, which must have created its own interesting things for you guys. But I guess it's just a general question to speak more about her performance because I do think her ability to play broad and play fun, but also always play emotionally true,

is one of the things that I just was elated by in the series. carried me through it. I love when she comes in in episode two and starts to sort of just show the audience who she is in those first scenes of her episode because I think the audience at that moment is pretty disoriented in terms of how reality operates. It's coming out of the first episode. And she has, she just understood that she had to play this kind of, I don't know, very believable kind of person to exist inside of such a heightened world that that was essential to the show working,

that she be really real, even though she was doing a scene with a koala. And she did that. I think her presence in that second episode, for me, and then the argument that she has with her sister especially, so really stabilizes a tone that's asking a lot of the audience to say,

like, no, this is a very unusual landscape where ad buddies and friend proxies exist, but we're asking you to take the emotional lives of these people seriously inside of it. And I think that the last piece of that was Emma entering and doing what she did in the second episode. Was the addition of all of the extra reality bits that we get in the first two episodes, things that I really loved from the robot scoopers to the coal, the koala playing chess, to the friend proxies, everything about their life in reality. The void.

The void tank. That's not reality. Were those, how early in the process did those ideas appear? How important were those additions to you and your, in this story that you wanted to be telling? The big ones were there coming off of that very first conversation that I had had with Carrie and just things I wanted to do, the ad buddies, the friend proxies,

dock stop. The smaller stuff, the details around all of that were added all throughout the process. In the background of every scene, there's something that either Alex D. Jolando, our amazing production designer, Max Sherwood, our prop master, or any number of other people added, just there became, it felt, I think, to our crew that it was alive and fair game to throw ideas in, because it was. It was open creatively as we went. It was not locked down and it wasn't in concrete. The cement was wet. So people threw a lot of ideas into it and they just accumulated. And it kind of, the aesthetic of the world almost took over in the way that a character, you know,

writers talk about characters saying things and taking over finding themselves on the page. The world kind of did that as we went. Yeah, how did you guys arrive at this idea of, like, you know, in some ways, futuristic behaviors and in futuristic processes? But on the other hand, everything seems hardwired. It's dot matrix printers. It's old newer cabs. How did you sort of decide on the aesthetic versus the technological advancement of the world? I think some of it was in the earlier, in the very first scripts.

But I think then it really got focused as we went. My priority, I think, with ad buddies and friend proxies and what. have you, was just to find a different way to show those feelings. Because I was conscientious that Black Mirror had done that a lot in a kind of digital way. And we wanted to find a way around VFX. And so inserting an actor as an ad buddy and that concept, so we could use a human felt really good because it felt different but getting after a feeling that was important in the show. And then we just drifted more and more analog as we went. And it cohered around all this amazing gear that the rest of the crew was going out and renting from these old shops in New York that just have this shit.

Yeah. You know? And it just became more and more analog. And then I think the year where the split in the timeline occurred kind of just we settled somewhere in the early 80s. Yeah. And then we went with it. was it good luck or good planning that both emma stone and julia garner can do pretty spectacular british accents

luck yeah totally totally luck you just wrote it and then well we just because garner who i've never had to have english accents she seemed real comfortable in that role i mean i feel like am julia julia so yeah really comfortable in that role um they're talented talented actresses they they uh i think think it was fun for them, honestly. I think it was fun just to be able to do something different and differentiate between the other versions of themselves. But we got lucky, I guess. Well, one of the great advantages of working with such talented people, but also having something like Netflix behind you is you just have access to a pretty incredible talent pool

across the board. I mean, I was just in my head thinking about actors and performances I wanted to mention, and I almost forgot that you have Gabriel Byrne on your show. I mean, you have such a high level of talent surrounding these stars. specifically though I did want to ask about Justin Thoreau's performance and involvement and also the fucking incredible Sally Field who is so good on your show I mean she's always good but the way she tears into this part when she shows up is so thrilling and their dynamic is hilarious she just knew she knew what she was going to do I think the second that she she was accepted our invitation to join the show and she knew it even better than

we knew it. She had it in her head. And there is a thing about Sally who she's done this for so long and so well for so long in so many different contexts that she knows what a PA is going to say to her as a PA is walking up to her. Like she knows what I'm going to say as I'm walking up. And she's sort of out in front of the production and out in front of the creative side as well. So I just sort of at some point was just sort of sat back. and was in awe of what she was doing. For example, she just started calling James Jamie after he apologized to her.

That was not in the script. She just started doing that, and we shot those out of order, that everything was cross-boarded, and she had just done that, and it was kind of amazing, and I only realized it a couple days later what she was doing. Justin, I have to say, I think, delivers

one of the most interesting and unusual comic performances I have ever seen in my life in this show. I want to take just a special second just to note how hard it is to be that fucking ridiculous and still have a true emotional life inside of there somewhere. It's almost impossible. And every scene makes me laugh. I cannot look at the dailies.

The other thing I should say too about his performance, not to go on and on. There is a cut of Maniac that is 10 times broader than the cut that's on Netflix right now because he and I, I think, have a similar sensibility in that there is no too big. Yeah, it gets naked going kind of, yeah, right. And he, I would always be like, more, more, scream louder, and Carrie would be like, maybe pull it back a little bit to Carrie's credit because he needed that reception. strain too, but that, you know, every single scene that we shot, he screamed one take somewhere,

or he lost it in a different. Is there a version of Maniac that's entirely the instructional video that it showed in the beginning? There is a longer version. Yeah, I bet. There was a fight, too, to get that made, to make it as long as we made it, but it's cool. Yeah, his, the tonal shifts that happen in his performance are, I think, symbolic of the entire show, and it must have been very difficult to sort of manage different things. You've got so many different elements, from like, even something like the accent Jonah does in the UN episode and the spy episode is such a choice that it's going to impact, like, it's going to have a ripple effect throughout that entire episode in terms of how seriously you take the hallway shootout.

You know what I mean? It's so interesting to think of the jigsaw puzzle of what these little choices that all these very strong performers are making. Particularly when you are not, as you just alluded to, you're not shooting it in order. So it's not like you can say, well, we've earned them. here in eight because we know exactly where we've been along the road. No, we shot the show entirely out of order. We shot scenes from 10 on the first day of production.

The ad-buddy scenes in one and 10 with Ariel and cup and saucers that place called? Yeah, which is closed. Those were day one of production. So, yes, then an added layer of difficulty because of that as well, tone-wise. But I have a lot of trust that if you treat your central characters as though their emotions are important, you can get away with almost anything on the ridiculous side of the spectrum. I mean, it needs modulation, but I think that it's just when you stop taking seriously the emotional experiences of those two characters that I think the wheels would come off entirely. I want to ambush you with a question here.

Please. I know you were concerned about being ambushed by Chris, but the danger was staring you in the face all along. I think I knew that, too. We've mentioned your involvement in seasons two and three of the leftovers. Coincidentally, or not, the seasons where I truly loved the show, so thank you for that. But you worked on that with Damon,

and you worked prior to that on another favorite show of mine, The Bridge, with... The Weird Bridge was your favorite show. The Weird Bridge is my favorite show that ran kind of just below the bridge. with the showrunner Elwood Reid, who's been nice enough to be on this podcast before. Very special to say, both Damon and Elwood listen to this podcast.

So you're doubly on the clock for the answer here. I was just curious if you could talk about what you learned from working with those two guys. Very different shows. I'm sure very different working methods and styles, but you work closely with both before you had the opportunity to run your own show with Maniac. So much.

I mean, when I started on the bridge, I had no experience whatsoever. and I had never been on a set and had never been in a writer's room. And Elwood has a very good get-to-the-pointness of him and sort of an ability to see through pretty fluffy bullshit

that when you are feeling insecure and inexperienced in a writer's room, you go to to try to kind of like make yourself feel relevant in some way, shape, or form. And there's this attraction is just sort of trying to fake, I don't know, discuss instead of pitch. And pitching is its own skill and really, really difficult. And I think he kind of saw through that.

And he's a tough love kind of guy too. And so he was hard on me when I would make mistakes. And it helped me sort of just learn how to do TV generally. And just letting us on the set as staff writers is very unusual to go produce our episodes. It's, you know, that's crazy. I raved about that episode, you did it first, right? famously. Andy trashed my first episode of the bridge.

Apparently. What's wrong with you? I don't know. It's funny. I know how to pick them, you know? You use the word breathless, and when I was reading it, I remember kind of being like, that's a positive word, isn't it? And then I was like, no, that's not.

And then the next part of the sentence was like, the breathless seventh episode of season one. Not that it stuck with you or anything. No, he didn't pay attention. The shittiest episode of the season by far. I would never say shittiest. I would have said, I used a much classier way to say it was a terrible thing. I think you said the worst written episode of the season.

By Patrick Summerville, who I will in no way rely on to get my child into preschool, just a scant 18 months from now. That was also good for me. Thank you. You know, I learned a lot. Thank you. You're welcome. See, Chris?

Don't ever read it about me. I have some notes on the episodes you did without me last month, and I'll be sharing them after this. What's going to happen, what is going to happen when Andy's show comes out? I'm just going to do it with an Andy hologram. Are we going to talk about Andy's show? Can I come and he be gone? Yeah, and you want to just review Andy's stuff? Yeah.

If I'm lucky enough to make more episodes of this show, I think it would only be fair if you and Damon and Elwood and Sam S-M-Smail just took turns, just roasting week to week, using my own language. I think that would be fair. Let me also finish answering your question about Damon, too, because he is in the room has this kind of scary ability to pitch entire scenes kind of in real time. We did it different in the leftovers.

We broke the whole scene in that writer's room. But pretty much down to the line, and there was a little bit of room left, but the arc of whatever conversations were going to happen in a scene happened in the room. He's going to say this, she's going to say that. They're going to be like, okay, we have to go do this. Yeah, and not even the general gist of what they're going to say, how they say it.

Okay. And so we would do, we would take a whole day to do a scene together as a group. But once in a while, Damon would just sort of, it would all be there at once. He would just kind of monologue a whole scene. And I had never seen anyone in the TV industry perform the pitch like that. He has this extra gear that is shocking, but I learned a lot about how valuable pitches themselves are, not just in writers, but in all the meetings and the way that Hollywood operates. To be able to go into a meeting and summon the feeling of a scene or an idea right there is very powerful.

And I think I can't do it like he can do it, but I learned a lot watching him. Have you ever seen that it's on YouTube? It's a video of David Milch on the set of John from Cincinnati explaining a long monologue that the alien guy is supposed to. He's not an alien, but the guy is supposed to give in this motel parking lot. And he's standing there, he's got like a black t-shirt and black pants on, and he's got his, like, lenses on. He's just like, and this fucking guy is going to go over here,

and he's talking about Plato, and it's the flames on the walls, which of course means heroin, which of course relates back to horse riding, which of course is surfing. And these actors are all standing like, what? And he does this whole 11-minute monologue explaining the monologue. And he's walking, he's just like gesticulating, it's amazing. What's been incredible for me over the last year is realizing that there is, until you are at the point where you are now, Patrick, where there's like the 10 episodes are on Netflix and everyone watches them and that's the final product,

you show your work. No one knows what anyone else is talking about up until that point. It's all speculative. It's all changeable. The version of Breyer Patch that I explain. to the people at USA is different than the version of Breyer Patch that Lily is working on right now in the editing room that I'm going to get to see next week or that the production design that the actors thought they were doing or wanted to be doing. It's all fungible and filtered through other people's minds' perspectives until you have the final thing.

And that's both incredibly exciting, but it's also kind of totally terrifying, right? Yeah, you have to let go. And that's very hard. As a novelist, which is, I guess, truly the autour medium in that it's just you. maybe some intervention from a good editor now and then. I think spoken word performance, like Chris and I used to do, East Village is probably more pure, but yeah, go on. You have to let it go, and you have to be comfortable with the idea that someone else

is maybe going to find ways to do the thing that you want to do, and maybe it's going to be better, too. Maybe you didn't actually hit the best version of it along the way. And the idea that there are different paths to an endpoint, and they are not necessarily superior than one another. They're just fundamentally different. That's difficult to accept and something that I'm always working on. But I think you have to.

All TV is a collaboration. It is. You're coming off of leftovers, and one of the things that's so interesting, I actually really loved this part of it for this specific show for Maniac. But leftovers, and I think to its credit, demanded all this attention because people were wondering, and where is it going? What is it going to try and say at the end?

I'm tense because I want Kevin to be happy or I want in order to be happy. I want this to work out for people. There was a lot of week-to-week anticipation and anxiety around that. And my viewing experience with Maniac, without even knowing you were or weren't coming in, was much more like, I think almost appropriate for the show where it was kind of like washing over me, and I'd watch two, and then I wouldn't watch it for a week,

and then I watched one, and then we'd watch all the Middle Earth ones kind of together. and I found myself, it changed how I was relating to the story in terms of the way we usually do for week to week TV, where we're like, where is it going? What's Saul going to do this week to get it closer to the finish line? It was a different writing something that you knew would be ingested in totally different ways by tons of different people rather than, hey, it's season three, it's a week to week thing. We have to get these people to this place and tease them out over the course of this time period. A bit, but it's your question. I think is also informed by a debate Carrie and I had throughout making the show, which was episodic

storytelling versus long-form storytelling. You know, Carrie is much more of the, I'm making a very long movie here, Ilk, and I am much more of the, we're making 10 episodes of a show, and each of those episodes has a core emotional idea that's going to control how the story works. And I think in the end when you watch the show, it's a, to me, it's a very interesting mixture of those where sometimes it's more episodic and sometimes it kind of doesn't matter. Sometimes there is no controlling emotional idea in some of those episodes. It depends which one you're talking about, really. And so it changed along the way. I started, and the version of the show that the writer's room kind of outputted before that step was very episodic.

I think very much could have just aired on HBO or Netflix. It wasn't really built to be Netflix. And I think now I really think people should just watch it all together. I think there's something about a maniac where the sum is greater than the parts and it's built in a way just to sit down and go through it. But I think, too, the other thing I was thinking, the first part of your question is I'm a huge advocate of fun in television. And especially after, I think, you know, the leftovers I found to be very fun, but also it's heavy.

And the first season in particular was icy and heavy. And sometimes it's hard. There are no worn moon jerseys in the leftovers. No, but there's a dude standing on a giant pillar. It's true. There's a giant inflatable Gary Busey. Yeah, that's true. But there's, you know, many other shows that are very, very serious about what they're trying to do and what they're trying to talk about.

I'm fine with shows like that I can go with it but I also I really do think that in the landscape of television right now it should be entertaining it should be really fun and not necessarily have that grimness to it that I think

maybe when you say like you could you weren't worried in the same way about how it was going to end up there's something about TV now especially when it's on HBO or something like that where you were you're going through a familiar emotional reaction

no matter what the material is because you're kind of anticipating certain hallmarks of a season of television. You're anticipating that penultimate episode that's going to change everything. You're anticipating the finale that will also maybe set up the future or wrap everything up.

And there was something about Maniac where I was never thinking about those kinds of things. I was never like, oh, here comes the second last episode, is going to be significant, even though it is. I mean, I was almost breaking out of watching habits. Yeah, I mean, I think that's because it doesn't quite have the same cadence and pacing of typical prestige television right now, and I think that's the combination of me and Carrie.

That's the weird mix of our sensibilities. But also, I think the show is constantly gesturing toward a happy ending, too. I think it's telling you from the beginning that these people are going to be okay, but it may not happen in the way that that, Dr. Mantoray is saying it's going to happen, but I don't think the show is ever really saying, you know, be careful because the red wedding is right around the corner. You know, it doesn't, it, maybe it would have been great to do that because I would have caught you off guard so much. But at the same time, it's just not, it's just not that kind of show, you know? Getting caught off cards overrated.

No, it's interesting. It kind of has the cadence of a fable or like Alice in Wonderland in a way. You know, there's a sense that what's dangerous, actually dangerous for these people is in, you know, inside of them and how they deal with it. The world, though bizarre, isn't as threatening as what they can do to themselves. Yeah, yeah. And I think very early, when I knew it was Jonah and Emma, one of the first things I said when I had one of like 85 meetings to actually get the job

was that I really thought there needs to be an antagonistic comic force in the show, which some of it has to do with, if Mantua is the bad guy, it's sort of hard to get worried that he, is actually going to harm people because he's not out to harm people. Right. If your bad guy is comic, then... And he's not that bad. Yeah. There is a sense of safety to that.

We live in a world where... Well, I should say, so when you fire up the maniac on the Netflix, it says a limited series event in big letters, but we do live in a world where there are bigger little lies... What are those bigger little lies going to be? I mean, the size is trying to really figure out the size of them, considering they're both bigger but still small is really going to be tough. Is it the cover up?

They have to do the cover up, right? You know, you're talking to the wrong podcast for that one. I feel like the goss is that Merrill is related to Scars Guard, right? Scars Guard is mom. Yeah. Wow. What a bloodline. So she's coming into town and she's going to figure out what happened to her boy.

Big little blogs. You got to read those. I definitely stay far away. You know where the question is, though, is like, is there more story here in this world? Is it ever possible to align the heavens and get these, factors, schedules clear or carry again? Is there a conversation going on where it would take a different form if Maniac were to continue?

Or is everything on the table or nothing off the table? I think Annie and Owen's stories are done. I think that was what the season was doing and it was for them and it was about their emotional arcs. I don't know. You know, like Netflix is not bullshitting when they said, we don't tell people about the numbers. Like, they don't. And they play their cards close to the vest. So I don't really know where they're at about it. I love the world that we made. And there's a lot of

imagination that was poured into it. And I think there's actually, there's just much more potential there. And I think that Justin and Sanoia's performance in the show made them very intriguing characters. So kind of just like sitting around thinking about it, yeah, there's more. There's the big little book tour, man. The 47 city Sally Field book tour is right there. I will buy a ticket for that. But you never know.

It's business, but it's also about people and who wants that. I don't want to be a guy who forces this thing out into the world and it's sad and everyone's like, just don't do it. And I think that just takes a little bit of time. I do think the season and the show found a lot of people and made a lot of people happy in their viewing experience. And so I don't know, we'll see. It's just sitting up there on my Roku right now.

It's strange to imagine that it just exists. It exists right now. I could call it up on this computer right now. Would you like me to? No, please don't. Have you guys gotten much, I'm sure there are lots of Easter egg blog posts about me? but has people brought up the big hug mug? Oh yeah.

Yeah. Okay. That was, I saw Max putting that out there. And that was a little, I think a little arrangement between he and Kerry. That was awesome. To put it there in that scene. Billy threw it and destroyed it. Oh, no.

But was that from the true detective set or is there like a big hug mug? Usually, Andy can speak to this. Usually when you have a prop that's going to break, someone wheels a cart with 18 of them. Oh, out into their room on the day. Also, I did. discover firsthand that the beauty of a TV set is everyone takes their job extremely seriously, which is great, and everyone is passionate about their particular lane. And prop people will populate stuff with props. Like, they will bring a lot of props. They will bring you a lot of options.

And if you don't say anything, they will bring you like seven of those options. Yeah. Just put them all out. Finally, we're lucky to have you here, Patrick, because we're fans, but also, we know that you have listened to this podcast once or twice. And because we have welcomed Sam Esmail on to serve as kind of an informal ombudsman at times and criticize us for things. I'd like to give you a chance on the microphone if there are issues you'd like to take with us. Or just some notes, some

direction you'd like us to pursue. Sam's note famously, just for context, was you guys should start watching TV shows again. Yeah, stop. Stop talking about Star Wars gossip. A little aggressive. But we've tried to adjust to his desires. Is there a show we've missed? A show we've sold short?

Is there something Chris was really wrong? about that you'd like to bring up again so we could talk about it? Oh, we could get into Leftover Season 3. The final thoughts on Leftover Season 3, if Chris wants to. Honestly, like... Can you quote it down to commas? So much has happened since then that I don't even... Yeah.

I can't even remember what, like, what would I take? Actually, I know what you were picking at back then, though, too. It's sort of... The show, kind of like Maniacs sort of asked a lot in terms of letting go of realism. You were saying something a couple weeks ago that I responded to, too, which is that it's hard, it's hard for the emotional stakes to feel real when it is not realism. And actually, I think Jonah on the first day of prep, when we were chatting, he was like, can't happen, won't watch it.

I think he said that. Like his sort of aesthetic is just sort of like fantasy, no, sci-fi, no. I just want real things because I feel it, I just feel it, it's real when it's realism and it's just not real. Like, sir, this is an RV's driver. And I think there, you know, there is a kind of fatigue when you're entering into sub-realities that accumulates. And I think that was maybe building up in season three of leftovers for you. It's just, it's fair. I like gritty, grounded realism.

Yeah, I mean, I try to like have a, I think a lot of it is contextual. lot of it is what else am I watching at the time or what else is on at the time. I think that's what we're also talking about with all the fantasy shows that we're going to come on next year or the next couple of years. It's just kind of like getting ready for a lot of new... Elves? Yeah, a lot of elves in our lives. That's fair.

I think, Chris, you should make fun of Andy much more, especially when he monologues. Oh, I like it. You'd be surprised. I got a lot of stuff going on on my phone. Yeah, we haven't done it today, but there are definitely moments when the eyes leave. this reality. I think it's more of a glassy vacancy. I like to think of it as like I'm staring your forehead, but like...

No, I see the light go out. Yeah. And that just makes me burn brighter, honestly. I'm like, I guess I just got to carry this whole thing myself again. No, man, you guys are great. I love that you're out here talking about it. And I love it. I love it when you talk the business of TV.

Because it is very, it is very frustrating to read criticism that feels like it's coming from a place that does not fundamentally understand how TV gets made. it's both kind of more painful but in the right way in the way that you're learning as a writer when it's coming from someone who kind of can see through

how a show got made in the way that it got made or what, maybe this went wrong at the production level. That stuff is fascinating to me and you miss it a lot when you read this or that think piece about TV.

Would you like to take this moment now to name the members of the production who sabotaged your episode of the bridge? Now that I know more about it, I can understand. Maybe it was the second AD, The truth is, I sabotaged my episode of The Bridge.

It is. I didn't know anything. This is the C-pill we just took before voting. That's clearly... I didn't know, I didn't really know how to make TV. And I think I half knew how to do a lot of it. But I made all sorts of mistakes making that episode. But I learned from them, too. Could you give me a list of those mistakes?

I don't think you're going to make them. We'll see. I don't think you're going to make them. But Meredith Steam, the third showrunner I've worked for, who I learned a lot. from, used to have this thing in the writer's room where she would, she would point at a scene and say, basically she would say, why is that scene? Like, why? Yeah. And that, it made, that question made no sense to me when in the first season of the bridge. I was like, because it's cool,

because it's a cool conversation between two people. And she was saying something, I think, much more relevant to television, which is, which is that they have to be doing work. Things have to be doing deeper work than what's on the surface. You can't afford the luxury of. Of vamping, of showing, like, it's not about that at all. It's about what's, how do the scenes work together into a puzzle that gives someone a feeling at the end of the episode? I didn't get that at all.

Thanks, Meredith. Don't do that. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming by, man. Yeah, congratulations. Thank you. I'm glad you guys talked about the show. I'm glad you guys liked it.

Thanks for everyone. Here. Today's episode of the watch was brought to you by ADT. ADT can design and install a smart home just for you, backed by 24-7 production, featuring services like doorman service, which is an ADT automation that unlocks the door for packages, friends, or your kids, or turn-down service, an ADT automation that arms your system locks your doors and turns down your lights and thermostat. It's all controlled by the ADT app or the sound of your voice and backed by 24-7 protection.

Just visit ADT.com slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design and install. a secure smart home just for you.