The Watch - Big IP Fails at the Box Office and Damon Lindelof Talks 'Twin Peaks' and the End of 'The Leftovers' (Ep. 155)

Episode Date: June 1, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald are joined by editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey to discuss the slew of big IP films, including 'Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales' and 'Baywatch,' that are failing at the box office and what it means for the film industry (3:40). Then, Chris and Andy discuss 'Silicon Valley' and T.J. Miller’s sudden departure from the show (21:30) before fielding a call from showrunner Damon Lindelof to talk 'Twin Peaks' and ending his show 'The Leftovers' (29:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at TheRigger.com and joining me in the studio, it's Mr. Jackpots. Hello. Andy Greenwell! Hey, man. Hey, buddy. It's been a minute because I think we had some stuff in the can.

Yeah. We had an annihilation pod for the book club came out on Monday, so. People check that out. We talked to the author, Jeff Vandermeer, who came in hot talking about the movie. Yeah. And we had an incredible episode last week this time with Lizzie Goody. about her book, Meet Me in the Bathroom, which people seem to really enjoy that episode. Lizzie was a fantastic guest. I personally have a 10-song Spotify playlist, but I feel like

you were like, it's my Spotify playlist. It's my vision of New York. Should we cross the streams? I asked you that on a text message. You didn't remember me back. I had a really busy weekend. I had house guests. I saw you this weekend. It wasn't. Did you see me? Do you see my eyes? I was not on the links with you all weekend. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Can I just mention Chris this weekend was so kind, came to my daughter's birthday party. Yeah. It was outside in a park. I talked about Peak TV.

But you also spent most of the time surveying the newly green hills of Elysian Park being like, yeah, they could put it, they could put nine holes in here. I know. I know. You were playing like, like, I got Mar-a-Lago on the brain. Sims golf in your brain over. I think about it a lot. It's not going to be a good podcast content to talk about it.

Once I go on Shack House. Okay. Shack House! Today, we are talking about Twin Peaks, episodes three and four. we were talking about leftovers episode last. Well, the seventh episode leading into... The eighth episode. But we have a special guest to talk to us about those episodes.

We're going to get a phone call in. From Damon Lindeloff. He's going to call. I kind of want to talk to him about Twin Peaks, too. Can I tell you something? Yeah. He kind of wants to talk about Twin Peaks, too. Okay.

That's the extent of our communication since the last time he was on this podcast has really just been about Twin Peaks. We're also going to be joined by the ringer's editor-in-chief and a friend of ours. Sean Fennacy. Mm-hmm. She's just like, we're not letting him talk about the leftovers. Because what we wanted to talk to Sean about, Sean's been writing a lot of, like,

movie industry pieces. That's called carving out of lane. Over the last couple of months. And it's been an interesting time at the box office in the sense that they're not making any money. And suddenly critics are ascendant. Yeah, I know. The power of the critic.

The power of the pen, guys. Bowed down to Richard Brody, kiss the ring. But first, yeah, so let's bring in Sean. We'll bring Sean and we'll talk a little bit of movies. talk a little bit about Silicon Valley and T.J. Miller's departure from the show. Then we'll talk Twin Peaks and Leftovers with Damon. Hello.

All right. We are so happy to be joined by Sean Fennessee. I think we are joining Sean Fennessee. He's got his own podcast. Yeah, thanks for letting us on the mic with you. I'm honored to be here, and I will not accept any of this false modesty, buttoned up praise, BS from the gods of the watch. This is a Mizan-Shon B-roll kind of podcast.

But before we even get into it, guys, congratulations, one year of a website. Thanks, man. It's a hell of a thing. Thanks for noticing. It's very exciting. I couldn't help notice. Chris is wearing his, the ringer is one years old today's sweatshirt. Yeah, I guess it was established 2016.

It's 2017. That was last year. First of all, you guys, you work long hours, you do great work. You look fantastic. Thanks. How did you do it? Well, one thing I can say is that I look fantastic. I don't, Chris is going to do what Chris is going to do.

No, it's nice. It's a very, it's an exciting day for us. I think it's a perfect day to have you on to talk about failure, because we're talking about movies at the box office. Because the reason I wanted you to come on, this is actually Andy's idea. I thought I could handle it, but Andy wanted you to come on. No, but it wasn't because of that. It was because you suggested, Chris, that we do a little, little seg.

Sean, that's a podcast term for a segment. I'm learning so much about podcasting. About, you know, the box office, summer movies, and box office failures. And my first thought was, well, I don't go to the movies. So we should probably have a cinema file in. Yeah, no. And Sean's been writing some great pieces about the changing nature of the industry and how streaming is affecting it.

But also, I know that we were talking a lot earlier in the week. Just about, we say every summer, it's a bad summer. Last couple of summers, at least it feels like we've just turned to each other at some point in June and just been like, what the hell is going on. But this year there seems to be a consistent theme that's sort of following around the failures with the exception of, say, snatched or a couple of other. things where it's like these IP reimaginings that are maybe a little too cute, whether it's King Arthur or the most recent failure, Baywatch, and that we may have gotten to the other end

of the snake here in terms of the snake eating its tail. Where's your head out when it comes to the IP adventures going on this summer? I think that there's a lot of hot air going on around this narrative. Sunday night was actually kind of interesting because I heard from a handful of people who were responding to stories on Deadline.com, The Hollywood Reporter, where, you know, the trades typically have a throughline to studio executives who immediately start sharing their opinion about why their movie succeeded or failed. And then those pieces, you know, those opinions find their way into stories on those websites on Sunday night. And then that shapes the conversation in the movie industry for the following week.

This week, there was a lot of conversation about what Rotten Tomato Scores did to movies, which is a false narrative, if I've ever heard one. And there's a lot of bad movie writing going on this week about this. And I think the truth is that Baywatch is not a very good movie, and that Dead Men Tell No Tales, the fifth Pirates of the Caribbean movie, there's just not as much interest in it as there was 12 years ago when Johnny Depp first started doing that thing that everybody was so charmed by. And so I think on the one hand, there is definitely some IP exhaustion,

and I've thought about that a lot when I write about this. You know, just a week and a half ago, Universal announced the Dark Universe, which is a reimagining of their monster movies, which will kick off next week with The Mummy. And, you know, it's very hard to get people excited about going to the movies. And so there's this desire to create universes, which you guys have talked about a lot on this show. But the truth is, is good movies still succeed.

And there's nothing to the Rotten Tomato Score. You may have seen Suicide Squad had a 20% Rotten Tomato score last year. It also made $780 million. You know, Batman versus Superman made $880 million. This is not, that stuff is not affecting it really at all. I think the truth is just IP is not going anywhere. And when Star Wars succeeds, are we going to be concerned about IP? I don't think so.

I mean, critics are very useful because they're always around for whatever narrative you want to spin. And it's a convenient week for it because not only are they being, I guess, blamed or thanked depending for the failure of pirates and Baywatch. But the Rotten Tomato scores are also all over my feed as well because of Wonder Woman, which is getting a very warm reception. And so, you know, I think there's goodwill towards the people behind this movie, not necessarily the D.C. conglomerate, but Patty Jenkins, the idea of a female fronted superhero movie doing well.

But all of a sudden that becomes, let's put it this way, the spin around the DC universe had never mentioned the critical response until they suddenly had one, right? It's a very convenient spin. It's true. And now they're using it's their advantage. So in March, Wonder Woman was tracking it somewhere between $45 and $50 million for the opening weekend. Two days ago, it was tracking it somewhere between $60 and $65 million. Today, the Hollywood Reporter noted that it's tracking it at $90-plus million

and that people are saying it's going to cross $100 million over a weekend, which would be a huge success. And then people will use that as sort of a divining rod to clarify, well, should more women be in the lead? Should there be more female filmmakers? I think Chris Pines going to get all the credit for this one. I have heard that Chris Pine is quite good in this movie, so that is definitely possible. I'm sure he's good. I think Bright Bart Entertainment will clarify Chris Pine's value to the franchise. Chris Pine beamed up Wonder Woman to the top of the box office charts.

You should work at Brightbart. It's really great. But so when you guys, you know, Andy, I know you don't go very often, but before you dial up a plane movie or Chris before you're going to go to with multiplex, do you guys look at Rotten Tomatoes? Do you use it as a tool? No. But I do think that the, I think the flip side of this. argument is very, very strong that very positive critical receptions to Logan and Get Out are part of what's behind those two movies being very successful because Logan should be

on the same diving board as Pirates of the Caribbean and Baywatch and Covenant and Transformers 1000 where that is like you've squeezed a lot of juice out of that idea of Hugh Jackman as Wolverine and they've messed with that a lot. They've done, you know, we'll jump back in time, will jump forward in time. There will be an alternative reality. And they managed to make a very good film out of it. And the same thing for Get Out, where I think that for as much as the negative stuff

is affecting things like Baywatch, where you might have been on the other side of the fence from going in the first place just because it's Baywatch. If they made 21 Jump Street out of that, which was obviously their goal, I think I probably would have gone and checked it out on a Sunday. This is what I was going to mention. And, Sean, I'd like your perspective on it too

because you are in your very good podcast. You're talking to filmmakers. and I imagine that for them, a lot of this is noise, and they have to do the same sort of work that filmmakers have always had to do, which is, to me, it's less, is the review, aggregate, good, instead is it, did they have a reason to make this movie? And I do think that, in Hollywood speak,

that's very inside baseball, but I don't think it is. I think that actually permeates the culture and the promotion of the movie. I mean, King Arthur was made because King Arthur is free IP, and, you know, they were going to make a hot King Arthur or whatever. They made King Arthur. When did Antoine Fuqua make his other King Arthur?

Four. 2004. I mean, was it that long ago already? I know. Still, we've gone to that well a couple of times. Similarly, like Baywatch, okay, if you wanted to do 21 Jump Street, then you have to be Miller and Lord Clever and do 21 Jump Street. Someone pointed out that the appeal of Baywatch was Pamela Anderson in a bikini.

It wasn't, and so they make Baywatch again, but they put Zach Ephron and shirtless in it. That's very appealing to large swaths of the population, but that's not necessarily the Baywatch brand. I can't believe I'm saying this. I think that's completely right though. But it's like, well, what are you doing? It seems like on some very basic level, we all have read the stories. We can all easily imagine the enthusiasm and the false enthusiasm and the then suddenly unstoppable enthusiasm-fueled momentum that can happen when people are like, well, we have a piece of IP. Well, the Rock, who's the biggest movie star in the world is going to do it. And then we have, it just moves and moves on its own accord, but there's no

reason to make the movie. We say IP so much. It's this catchword we use, but it's this catchword we use, in some ways, I don't even think it's intellectual property as much as its naming rights. There's nothing about Guy Ritchie's King Arthur movie that is deeply appealing to long-time fans of Arthurian legend. I mean, like, it's a reimagining of it. Also, long-time fans of Arthurian legend are not the target audience for a blockbuster. But what it feels like is Guy R-R-R-and-Shield movie. Right.

And he needed something to go on top of it. Do you know what I mean? Like he need, and just the same way, if you wanted to make a raunchy R-rated comedy about a couple of guys who are lifeguards, you need something to be the banner in front of it. Let me put it this. We're talking about two different things that are connected but not necessarily bound to each other. So in the case of Guy Ritchie, when Guy Ritchie was here in this room, he said, I wasn't making a movie about King Arthur. This movie is not about King Arthur. This movie is about a kid who grew up on the streets and grew up into something bigger than that. That was

his conception because that's what a lot of his movies are about. And whether some of that is shining us on or not, you know, he set out to make a three-hour saga detailing a godfather-esque rise to power. And certainly he's not capable, I think, of that kind of a film. But because he's Guy Ritchie, he's only capable of making a Guy Ritchie movie. So King Arthur becomes, as I said to you, a few weeks ago, lockstock and two smoking excalibers, it doesn't become this thing that he aspired to. And so you end up with kind of this mishmash that nobody really wanted and nobody really could understand and it wasn't saleable. It wasn't saleable to Arthurian legend scholars and it wasn't saleable to 14 year olds. It's interesting that we do live in a world now and of course I think you're

right where people no one wants to make bad art everyone has to find their way I mean this is not limited to Hollywood directors in any job or undertaking that anyone does we all have to find our own way into it to have it make sense but to hear that the director you know which is historically the captain of the ship has to sort of work in direct opposition to the weight of the title that he's been given because that title, as you said Chris, is what allows the money gates to open, that's starting way behind the April.

I mean, that's a difficult place to begin. Let me give you a counterpoint to that, though. I think that the reason that get out and particularly Logan were successful is because those movies did come along at the right time. There was a desire for a sort of stripped down iteration, a more realistic iteration of a superhero movie. Mangold was very smart.

about the way that he approached that. And people could feel that there was a tension and the difference between, say, the previous X-Men movie, which is kind of an artistic failure, and Logan, which was more of a chance. You know, there was something, there was an authenticity that people really responded to. You know, that movie was pretty well reviewed,

but I think it was successful because it was a Wolverine movie starring Hugh Jackman. Get Out is very interesting. Get Out has like a 99% Rotten Tomato Score, but I think what really drove Get Out's success, and you could see it with the sustained success across weeks was word of mouth. and the meaming of that movie

and the sort of like the sociology of that movie. Yeah, the fact that the sunken place has now been completely removed from its meaning in the film and is just like whether it's because you have a crush on somebody they put you in the, like you hear Reggie Miller making sunken place references on NBA broadcast.

I had a sunken place joke the other day that went pretty well and I've never seen the movie. Good job. I thought it did okay. How brave of you. Yeah, I thought so. I am the hero of this of this narrative. All right, if you're, you know, I know we're talking about this on the site tomorrow

a little bit, but as a sneak preview, If you have a reason to be hopeful this summer, one movie, do you have one that you're just like, hey, this is going to, not to save the summer, but like a reason for people to go to the movie theater in the next couple of weeks? That's a very good question. There is the high-toned, thoughtful version of that answer, which is the beguiled is coming out in three weeks. Sophia Coppola's new movie. I just saw a movie this week called A Ghost Story, which is the absolute opposite of a summer movie. It is perhaps the slowest American movie I've seen in 10 years. starring Rooney Mara.

And you've seen them all. I've seen a lot of them. Both of those movies are great. But, you know, I am still a mark for a great Michael Bay action sequence, and there's a Transformers movie coming out. So three hours and two minutes runtime. That's been debunked, I think. That's fake news? That's fake news.

I think it's two and a half hours. Fucking still. But it is amazing that we are so conscious of things like that, that's something like that can become a news story that, like, oh, Michael Bay is bludgeoning us with three hours of Transformers. My response to that is don't go see Transformers. Mission accomplished. Are you going to, my choice for this would be Dunkirk. That's probably three hours and two minutes. Yeah, but it's not fake news though.

No, that all really happened. Is there anything that can get you out into the movies? A reliable babysitter. Well done. When is that arriving? Did you see the Logan Lucky trailer? Yes, that. And were you like, I'm, yes.

That is just exhilarating. That made me so happy. So my number one choice for this, which is relevant. into the conversation we're having is Baby Driver, which is Edgar Wright's new movie that comes out at the end of June. I thought you were talking to me directly in my situation. I was like, okay,

does that mean that they will circle the arc light while my wife and I see a film? Ansel Elgort just listens to John Spencer Blues Explosion and drives her. Right, so long time rival of Chris Ryan, Ansel Elgort is a star baby driver. I know, how do you feel about this, Chris? It's weird. He's been, I felt like I

had one. Yeah. He had sort of stepped back. He had like immersed himself in trance music. and it seemed like he was going to putt. You ethered him on Twitter. I didn't do anything of the sort. I ethered him in a blog, which is how you're supposed to do it. That's how you're, that's the classy way.

In our generation, we ethered people in blogs and live journals. Let's keep it 100 and keep it on the blogs. He went social on me. He posted a picture of him dunking, himself dunking on a six-foot rim and was just like, come to Brooklyn and I'll dunk on you. I was like, I live in Brooklyn where I lived there. I didn't say that because I don't engage your trolls. And then he kind of, fell back for a minute. You know, you didn't really hear about him. Yeah. And then fucking Edgar Wright

has to go ahead and make him next Harrison Ford. I wouldn't go that far. I, in all respect to El Gort, I think he's not the strongest part of the movie. I have seen the movie. Is it a good movie? Yeah, and it's relevant to what we're discussing because it's not based on anything. I mean, it is, you know, certainly inspired by a lot of other movies. Like Walter Hills, the driver, is clearly an influence on it. But it's extremely musical. It's all hooked around. a series of pop songs. It's a heist movie. It's a character drama. It's a musical. It does a lot of different

things, and it's unique. It's not... Even Dunkirk, which I'm sure will be a beautiful piece of filmmaking, is weirdly historical IP. Baby Driver is... I heard Dunkirk was built around songs as well. Is that correct? Yeah, the music of Kesha. Oh. I'm impressed that they were able to

free her for that particular project. But here's a thing. I mean, I'm very excited for Baby Driver. I would like to see it. I like Edgar right but everyone likes Edgar Wright Edgar Wright is universally beloved everyone admires his his filmmaking his unique vision he's pretty good at

Sosh his movies don't do well and that seems to be an impediment on some level it hasn't yet a lot of his movies start and I love Simon Pegg but like they star the fifth most famous dude in a Star Trek movie so it's like he's only really

and the other one starred Michael Sarah so this feels like the first one where he's like there's movie stars. Jamie Fox and John Ham and Kevin Space here in this movie. But they're not movie stars. He makes... What I mean is he seems like a unicorn to me. But the Rock is a movie star and nobody went and saw a rock movie.

So let's just watch this space then. Because I feel like he's kind of a unicorn because he is a good filmmaker who should be in tune with the times and seems to be in tune with the times that we are in tune with on Twitter or like the people we hang out with. He should be very popular. But he has been given multiple chances, although it's been a number of years since his last film, will this be the one

that allows him to then not make Baywatches his next movie, basically, to justify having not made Ant Man? Yeah, I mean, he's possibly the subject of a longer podcast, but, you know, I think he aspires to a kind of Tarantino-esque success

where he creates a universe of his own. He has a horde of fans who come no matter what, and he also has the ability to kind of pierce into the third and fourth quadrants. I don't know if Baby Driver's really going to be able to do that.

However, his movies always make enough money so that he can make another movie. And the one time he decided to dip his foot into the IP waters, he got pushed out. You know, the Marvel Ant Man scenario was obviously very complicated. And he wanted to play by the rules that he wants to play by. He's very creative and sincere in his vision, and he doesn't, he didn't want to have to bend to the will of a corporation. One thing I'd like to see you talk about or write about is like if we could do a shadow

history of the last few years of the movies, like the biggest surprises. And to me, one of them is Ant Man succeed. Because the retcon of that now is that it was what a great success. Everyone loves it. And it did well and it has a sequel. I think we definitely did pods that were like, we talked about it. Ant Man's going to be the death and hell of the mold.

I mean, that seemed like a total disaster and they pulled it out of the fire. That seems like an interesting. You can supply the rest of them. That's literally the only movie I've seen in the last. I'll give it some thought. I mean, I think the answer just like with Wonder Woman is they hired an accomplished and creative person who just hadn't been given enough chances. Peyton Reed may not be Edgar Wright, but Peyton Reed is a very.

professional filmmaker. He had made good movies. He made it bring it on. Yeah. So it's not shocking that that movie turned out well. Just like it's not shocking. The Wonder Woman is probably going to turn out well. You can read Sean's pieces on the movie industry. You can listen to the big picture on Channel 33. That's right, Chris. Thank you. That's very sweet of you to promote the podcast. It's an excellent podcast. It's an excellent podcast. What was the other name going to be? Right for the Part. Yeah, there's a bunch. Sean didn't like any of them. Big Picture is good. I really wanted it to be on never podcast in this town again. Okay. Thanks to Sean for stopping by. Andy, let's talk a little bit about Silicon Valley.

Yeah, we rarely... We have not talked about that at all this year. Rarely talk about it. One of the funniest shows on television. One of the most consistent laughs, I think. But it's interesting

to talk about it now in the middle of the season because it was announced just for the holiday. The T.J. Miller, comedian, some would argue, breakout star of the show,

is leaving the show. And it was very interesting language. Mutual decision. Sure. Let me tell you something. Yeah. These things rarely are.

I would love, hello Hollywood If you listen to the show You want the dirt Send me all the truth You want to Nicky Fink this shit Just give it to me Why? I'm thirsty for it

You see this is the thing Is that like Silicon Valley to me It's like a fine show It's just like a well-willed machine Those guys haven't left their living room In like five years They're still working on some code Coding

They're just taking bong hits And then being like Oh no we didn't get investment Yes we did The bro code Yeah but it doesn't really Garner the same kind of like, what's going on with Silicon. It just seems to be like what of HBO's most reliably performing stable shows.

But what I want to say about that is that that's no small thing. Like I think it's, I am constantly impressed by the shows, dare I say it, coding. It's architecture. But what I mean is this is a show in which... What's the algorithm of the show? But the algorithm of the show, thank you, is Lucy pulls the football away from Charlie Brown again and again and again. that is fundamentally a frustrating algorithm to invest in, especially to invest in in the way that we invest in TV now, which needs to have a serialization element. It needs to continue, needs to build, it needs to be going somewhere.

But what the guys who make the show do, I should say men and women, because there are a lot of very funny women on the writing staff, very few on screen on the show, but that's a whole separate thing, is that they make it seem so elegant and the landings are so pillow-sized. off to the next bit of hijinks, that it just feels like a, it feels more like a roller coaster and less like one of those free fall things. You know what I mean? Sure. You never really feel that sour or cheated when things go sideways because they always go a little bit sideways and they pick back up again. There's still a feeling a forward momentum. You know, the way that they sort of fell from what they were doing to the video chat, to the new internet, it all seems very elegant, frankly, even though I'm sure they weren't planning this all the way out. And we had Dave Mandel from Veepe on the show. He was talking about how he and a bunch of the other ex-Sinfeld guys.

Alecberg. Right. Had to sort of become HBO's bench in terms of running their comedies. And it's a very different type of comedy than V. But I think it's no less impressive for what it is. So that's, do you want to, do we talk to DJ or you had a tiny take? No, my take was just that, like, I think that because of where it is on HBO's on Sunday nights, that there's an expectation of it going to some profound level. that it doesn't quite go to. No. But that it's the most TV show on the network that is not just TV or whatever the slogan is for HBO.

It's not more than TV. It's more than TV. It's not TV, it's HBO, but Silicon Valley is TV. And I think it's good TV. Yeah, I think it's often exceptional TV. But I was bummed about this news because I kind of think that there is not much tape on what happens when the, kind of funniest, broadest member of the ensemble leaves. Because all the best comedies have a character like Erlich Bachman,

which is nominally like the breakout character, maybe in terms of memes or quotes, exactly, but could never carry a show on his own. And you could say the Kramer, you could say the Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec. You take that character away, you lose like a base note that you, it's not just in terms of the writers having someone to come in and do something,

It is a crucial other point of view that helps crystallize everybody else. Sure. And obviously they're very talented. I'm just giving them credit for how they constantly reinvent themselves, so I'm sure they'll figure something out. But it does seem like a bummer, and it just seems odd to me because it is, how many episodes do they do a year? 10? 10.

Yeah. And like always just like, Silicon Valley is always about to come back on. That's what it feels like. They're never like, we need a year and a half off to figure this out. No. So, and, you know, I mean, I guess that emoji movie money is just starting to pile up, you know, but it, okay, just send... I mean, he had the thing where, like, with the Uber driver, right?

Hollywood send me the dirt. I'm putting the funnel in my mouth, and you just put the dirt in there. You're, like, I'm also blind gossip now. I'm not saying he's quit the show because, like, he wants to... I don't know what he wants to do. I'm not saying because he wants, like,

trash hotel rooms and his enormous drug problem. I'm just saying, like, I wonder if he wanted a lot of money, and they said no. Or I wonder if he really was, did he really give them heads up, and the season is ending in a way that we'll suggest it. Because this last episode,

It seemed to suggest that they were writing him out of the traditional arc of his character. Well, true, but it also seemed like they were putting him in, you know, as Dave Mandel told us, the key to American sitcom success is reshuffling the deck. So they're putting him in with the other characters, the former Reviga, the ladies, the VCs. But in what was otherwise a kind of weak episode. But I guess we'll find out, Chris. It's the magic of television. All right, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors.

Then we'll come back and talk Twin Peaks and Leftovers with David Lindeloff. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Sonos. You know, Sonos has this new thing called Playbase that goes underneath your television stand. It's got low-profile design. It's a speaker. And what it does is it transforms any living room, any space, into a home theater.

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Our listeners can get a free month by going to shutter.com and entering promo code watch at checkout. What are you waiting for? Okay, we're back, Andy. Very special segment coming up, because we're going to talk about Twin Peaks, and we're going to talk about Leftovers. We're going to talk about it with the same guest. Damon Lindelof, creator of the Leftover showrunner The Leftovers, who is also a diehard Twin Peaks fanatic. Fanatic. Yeah, and he had a lot to say about both of those shows.

We're really excited to hear from Damon. Let's check it out. Okay, now we are joined on cell phone by a very special guest. It's the most powerful man in the world or his identical twin brother. Damon Lindeloff, live from New York. What an intro. I don't know how to respond to that. Definitely the identical twin brother, I think.

Damon, I know that your cover story is that you are in New York doing press for the leftovers finale this weekend. But I think it's okay to tell the listeners that the real reason you're not here is that Chris and I had the biometric penis. scanner installed at the studio. The BPS. You were just a little uncomfortable with that. So I think it's okay. I'm glad that we're finally talking about this, and I can confirm that this is absolutely true,

and that's what I get for not patenting it. David, I wanted to ask if in New York... I wanted to ask if in New York you've had any time staring at the glass box, and if so, has anything appeared? Has anybody brought you coffee? How's that going? Oh, my God.

I did get very scared in my hotel room last night, just with the television off, thinking about that scene. And I'm not lying when I say I turned on the light in my back. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, because I'm still slightly traumatized. Also, like, walking around New York City at night now, I can't not think about just the establishing shot before we even met the glass box. There's, you know, David Lynch somehow made New York really scary.

Yeah. And I celebrate that. Do you want to talk about leftovers first? You want to talk about Twin Peaks first? Let's do this. Let's, we know how excited David is to talk about Twin Peaks. We are two. We were about to get into a conversation about three and four.

Let's do Twin Peaks for a little bit, and then we can bring it back to sort of set up the leftovers finale, if you're okay with that. And as long as we can get a little bit of master of none in there, too, then we're covered. You set the agenda, but I really think it's important for you to express this because you're one of the people I've been referring to, that in conversations with people we've talked about on the podcast, when I've talked to people just in real life, I'm just trying to explain how overjoyed I am with these new episodes. They fill me with bliss and excitement, and they do my head in, they freak me out. But I've been telling people also that the people who make the television that you love are basically like game over. This is everything. You've said this. You've expressed this to me.

Noah Hawley's expressed it. Sam Esmels expressed it. As a maker of TV, can you frame this for our listeners? Why this matters so much and why you're so excited? I'm not entirely sure. I can put it into words because first off, I think that because there's so much television out there and so much great television. not to mention, you know, various other mediums, movies, books, that the, you know, the brass ring that we're all reaching for as the people who make it is to just do something different, you know,

to just do something unexpected, to do something special, to make people say, I have never seen anything like that. And now to basically take that idea and apply it to Twin Peaks where you're like, well, I've seen something like that. It's called Twin Peaks. So the question is like, how do you make Twin Peaks both feel simultaneously like Twin Peaks, but completely and totally new and different and like mind-bogglingly exciting. And it's almost like it's just pure it. The only word that comes to mind is delightful. It sounds so, um, so to we, you know, to basically say like, I am just delighted by the show. But I, there are, there are certainly, you know, not to make this all about master of none. There are moments and master of none that are delightful. There are moments

in Transparent that are delightful. You know, like Twin Peaks is just consistently delightful, even when it's terrifying me or scaring the shit out of me, or even when a scene is going on nine minutes longer than it should, you know, like for the first two minutes, you're just like, this is going on way too long. And then for the second two minutes, you're like, it's still going on too long, but I think I love it. And then you just give yourself over to it. It is, you know, again, hyperbole aside, like a transcendent experience watching the show. And then, you know, as soon as it's over, wanting to watch it again or watching certain scenes again or saying like, you know, just walking down the street and being like,

I wonder if there's like a YouTube video yet up of Jacoby painting shovels, because I really want to see that right now. You know, like, it's just out of this world. It's fantastic. it clearly was always going to be a mistake to lump this in with another other nostalgia exercises because David Lynch in general is never going to give audiences, quote, what they want. But still, there's this, it is sort of elicited this unknown feeling of like we are just experiencing something pure and weird and new and fresh.

And it's not giving us what we want, but it's maybe giving us what we need or what he wants. And it's a completely different kind of viewer experience, particularly with a world that was previously known. Yes, and I, and I also, it also feels like he's only making it for, to say he's only making it for himself would seem to suggest that there's a certain level of ego, egoism of play that I, that I, that I wouldn't want to put on him. But that, that's the other part of it, which is, I think that as an audience or as a fan of this stuff, you get entitled and say like, this is for me, it's my twin peaks and blah, blah, and he's so clearly saying, not, not go fuck your but sort of like, I'm making this for me.

You know, however, I was coerced by Mark Frost to come back and make 18 more of these things. And David Nevins basically gave me carte blanche to do so. I'm just making what I want to make. And there's just a purity to it all where it's like, you can't give, you know, notes on this thing. And I don't really even think that David Lynch has said the words, what do you think to anybody? No. It doesn't bother him.

It's not that he doesn't care in an arrogant way. It's just like it's a beautiful thing. You know, you're somebody who is played around with the idea of dream logic, has created worlds of the subconscious in your shows. And then you see something like three, the third episode, which takes place in, I guess, the best way to put it would be multiple dimensions. I mean, I don't even know what you would, multiple realities. When you watch somebody do something like,

like that because it's weird it's like even with something that's supposed to be is rule free as dream logic or creating the world of the of the mind and then you see somebody who actually almost goes so much farther i mean what what is that like to sort of be writing and that this actually does tie in pretty well with the the the penultimate episode of leftovers where you're working within a sort of bizarreal reality or a reality that's just not quite like our reality How hard is it to write in that? And what do you see in what he did in the third episode that was impressive? I mean, it's easier to talk about Twin Peaks in that regard than it is about the leftovers.

And I'm just glad that, you know, that I didn't see this first and then have to go and write the third season of the leftovers because I just would have curled up in the fetal position and, you know, and cried for days. the idea that there is a logic to what's happening in the beginning of the third episode of Twin Peaks, where you sound bad shit if you're trying to describe it to someone, but it's sort of like, I actually kind of on a weird narrative level completely and totally understand what Dougie was, even though I have no understanding of what Dougie was. But like the one arm you man is going to give us the best explanation we're going to get, and then Dougie basically turns into some, you know, pearl or a tiny gold ball. But the idea that he was just basically, you know, some kind of construct that was a placeholder

for the space that Cooper would eventually return to after sliding through an outlet and Dougie puking up internal organs, I'm just basically like, okay, I kind of get this. And I think that's really, that's the critical element of any kind of dream logic storytelling, which is, you know, you can be surreal and Dolly-esque, but there does need to be, you know, and some kind of internal narrative logic to it that you get. And hopefully that will translate to the audience as out there as it may be. And so when we build, you know, dream logic constructs on the leftovers, I would say that the ones of the first season where Kevin Garvey is sort of wandering around,

you know, like confused, and there's, you know, dogs barking in mailboxes. Those were bad. But once we got into the space of International Assassin and its follow-up, that was good. Because one of them is just surreality for surreality's sake with nobody acting as an emotional surrogate for the audience. And the other one, the characters have real intention. and they're actually questioning the logic around them. I mean, I feel like one of the greatest things that happened in that episode of Twin Peaks is that when Dougie is brought to the Black Lodge, he's like, this is weird.

Yeah. You know, he's like the first character on any episode of Twin Peaks to actually say those words. You know, it's like, oh, my God, it is weird. But look at the guy who's saying it. That's Kyle McLaughlin. Like, you know, you think it's weird. And I do think that it's important for the characters to sometimes not spoon feed for the audience because the audience is super sophisticated, but in fact, validate the audience's experience. And that's why I love the way that the road play Kevin in those dream spaces in the latter seasons.

Because he's basically like, what the fuck is happening at first? and then he migrates to like, I'm going with this, but he still gets shaken and surprised when strange things happen. So the audience is sort of like, I know how to feel because I know how Kevin is feeling. But also the commonality between the two shows, I think, is that the emotions make sense. And so the beginning of three of Twin Peaks 303 is totally dazzling just as filmmaking. It's totally unnerving and upsetting and odd, disorienting. when we go to the room and the woman's eyes are covered

and that turns out to be Ronette Pulaski from the original series and they go upstairs and she falls into space. It's shot like a Lumiere brother's silent film basically. Right, it's just one of the greatest things he's ever filmed. But at the same level, he's in a scary place, there's someone coming.

I mean, that's the emotional feeling that we can all connect to in our dreams and so that is what carries us through. And similarly, I'm glad you mentioned it, Damon. Like the stuff for the fans is there, exactly as you said. like I think that the evil Cooper doppelganger created a fake other doppelganger so he wouldn't get sucked in. So that Dougie's a construct so that now they're both in reality instead of him going back into the Black Lodge.

You can know that. That's there. It doesn't really matter if you know it because you're just kind of kind of vibing off of it. And similarly, I think I do think, and this is why I truly loved this week's leftovers is because I think it is one of the most challenging forms of storytelling. I think it's one of the most overused forms of storytelling, this idea of a dream sequence or dream logic. But when it works, it elevates. It kind of sings because you have, you've left the ground. You're elevated. You're levitating.

So that when we have this thing where last season, Kevin had to sing a song that mattered, and then all of a sudden I'm reminded, oh, well, now you're talking about an Aboriginal song, and it connects. And then Christopher Sunday, that wonderful performer, that wonderful face, well, of course he's the prime minister of Australia.

And of course, he's behind that desk to deliver the biggest emotional stomach punch of the season. Again, like you said, you explained those things out of context. It's nothing. It's gibberish. But when you lay the groundwork in a respectful way of the audience's emotions and the character's emotions, it becomes something sublime. It's meaningful because we put a lot of time and effort into those episodes. And obviously, Nick Kews and I are the ones who get to put our name on. the cover page, but they're generated, you know, by the same process that all the

leftover scripts are, which is by this incredible writer's room that we've assembled. And I think that we really stress test every single idea that happens particularly in episodes like that. And we force, if we're delighted by something, you know, not Twin Peaks delighted, but just sort of like somebody pitches something like the dick shelf and everybody laughs. You know, then you have to go like, well, let's earn it. Like, okay, so that's a good gag. But like, what is our justification for doing that?

Like, we can't just do it because it makes us laugh. We have to, even inside the absurdist construct of this episode, why are we doing this? And then you have to actually answer that question. And I do feel like we're really, really hard on each other and very, very supportive of one another simultaneously. And so in an episode like that, and even saying, should we do this again, you know, should we go back to a space where we actually got out of it alive last time and people liked it, why in God's name would we want to risk, you know, actually lessening the first episode, making it less special by going back there again. Is there a new idea there? And apply the same logic to like, we kind of want to bring Ann Dowd back. But she had such an incredible, exit from the show, we're never going to do better than that well-seen. And so the answer became like, well, last time Kevin was in service of her and this time she's in service of Kevin. And we don't have to try to outdo the power of that scene. We can use Anne in a different way, maybe even more of a

comedic way than we used her the last. But all of this happens as a result of hours and hours and hours of conversation in that phenomenal writer's room, not to mention then our actors actually have to perform that stuff, and Craig Zobel, who directed it, just completely and totally commits to that reality and then just go. So I get to be the one who receives the accolade that you just offered up, but I do have to say, you know, not the corny, it was a group effort, but the leftovers would never be what it is without that tremendous collaborative, creative process. And, of course, Perada, where it all began with, you know, if you can get that guy on board with an episode like International Assassin and its and its and its sequel then you know

that it's going to be good. David, I guess one way we could kind of go out is that with the leftovers winding down and obviously it's been finished for you for a little while, but as you're sort of shepherding it out in the last episode air Sunday. But, you know, hearing in your voice the excitement that you have, obviously from watching Twin Peaks and thinking about the medium, I wonder whether something like Twin Peaks is a, or do you almost wish you could go back to work in two weeks to make a new show

or to do another season of The Leftover? Is there a degree to which Twin Peaks acts as like a catalyst for creativity for you? It's the exact opposite. I'm so intimidated by Twin Peaks that I'm really, you know, that I'm really, you know,

first off, I'm just so glad that I get to watch it now without, like, without feeling like I have to go in and write my own show. like I just get to turn off the creative generating part of my brain and just turn on the part, the receiving part, and just appreciate whatever the next, you know, 14 hours of Twin Peaks are going to be. And then basically absorb it and then decide, oh, my God, like, now what do I do? Because, again, like, it's not that I'm a fan first.

I'm just also a fan and all this television that I'm watching right now and movies that I love, you know, always starts from a very jealous place. So I'll go and see Get Out. And my response is equal parts. I love that. That's amazing. That's the best movie I've seen in a long time. And right on the heels of that, fuck Jordan Peel. How dare he?

I will never ever make anything that good in my life. I'm going to retire and just go teach a class about get out. And so it's equal parts. And I think that that idea of like kind of being in the dance battle where, you know, I'm basically standing there and Noah Hawley is spinning around on his head. And I'm thinking like, how am I going to just jump into the circle now and do a move that can rival that is a little bit stressful and purport? flexing, and I'm just relieved that I don't have to do it right now.

Well, I would say that, you know, it's actually a great, it's been really nice to have Twin Peaks and the leftovers on the same night and to have Twin Peaks back at a time with all these other shows that I admire, because I was thinking a lot about how, and I'm sure you've had these thoughts as well, about how much Twin Peaks had influenced my perception, my critical faculty is what I cared about in art, but I'd spend so much time away from it, I didn't remember. And so when I rewatched the pilot, what really blew me away is that in the first 10 minutes, you know, Laura Palmer's body is discovered. But we also have just the goofiest business of the Scandinavians at the Great Northern.

You know, there's room for the guy breakdancing at the high school all before the news reaches Leland and Sarah Palmer. They do the bad news relay. And then we get the Sarah Palmer, you know, Grace Abriske's scream, which is one of the most unsettling things ever to air on television. And you realize just from those, that opening, that what makes the show so special is it's understanding that all emotion exists at the same time and that all emotions. is inherently messy and really can't be corralled.

And that's what, you know, the, the humor is raised up by the horror and vice versa. And so, you know, to me, the triumph of an episode like this penultimate leftovers comes from not just the dick scanning and the way you put in all these dead character, you know, which, by the way, kudos to the whole staff for that. But, but, but, but, uh, no pun intended. Wait, wait, say that again? Did you say, did you say kudos to the whole staff? Yes.

As big as big as it may be. And how great as it may look in sweatpants. The... Great. But, you know, and for all the bizarreo left turns that that episode took, this is also the episode where in a bathtub, Kevin Garvey is shivering and Kevin Garvey Sr. says, I love you. And he says, I love you back.

And this season especially has struck me because you've given these characters the dignity to have the simplest emotions and deliver them and then walk away from them. that was my takeaway from the Lurie episode as well, that she was given the dignity of her choices without commentary. And to do this in the midst of a maelstrom of craziness and world ending, I think that is in the spirit of Twin Peaks, but it's also a tribute to what you guys accomplished this year. Thanks so much for saying that. And I've been very, the very true fact that

if it were not for Twin Peaks and other shows like it that were just, you know, like super impactful on me as my sort of adolescent mind was beginning to form, but the stuff that just basically completely and totally kept me awake at night thinking about storytelling, there would be no leftovers if it weren't for that. And I just feel like if you had told me in 1990, you know, Damon, when you grow up, you are going to make a TV show and it will be on the same night as Twin Peaks. First off, first off, I would have said, there's going to be 30 seasons of Twin Peaks, you know?

But, oh my God, that's the greatest news I've ever heard. But it's like, Hunter doesn't even, it's just, and the idea that I actually said to someone, I understand if you DVR, the leftovers finale, if you want to watch episode five of Twin Peaks live, I said those words with us, and I was smiling, ear to ear. They are occupying the same broad, that they're on

at the same time. That is just the best thing ever. We should let you go, but I do want to ask you just a two-part brief question, which is obviously that the finale is this Sunday night, the series finale. TV will be a less interesting place without the show. But

what would you like to tell the listeners of the watch who watch the show if there's just any parting words as they embank. on this final journey of the show, and then also just, we want to check in with you. How are you feeling? Because finales are fraught, and you've got one coming up.

So what would you like to tell the audience, and how are you? Directly to the two of you guys, because you know that I listen to the pod, and it's always exciting to be on and be speaking to you directly, because I often shout at you in my car, and you're not, you don't respond. So it's just nice to actually have you on the phone. And they're very often shouts of joy. But one of the things that Elysset shouts for me is that sometimes you guys will say, you know, I wish Damon would just explain less or talk less about the show. I just want the show, you know, to be out there.

This is before we started inviting you on to explain it, by the way. No, but I don't even think it's hypocritical for you to invite me on because, you know, the way that we talk about the show is not necessarily me unpacking the mysteries of the show. You know, it's more talking about the influences and blah, blah, blah. So I understand what that is. And hopefully I've done a lot of press surrounding the finale of the leftovers already. You know, we sent it out earlier in the week so that people would have some time to process it and write about it. And it doesn't feel like it's a finale that fit from the hot cake. You know, we wanted people, if they want to watch it on Sunday night, that's their prerogative.

But we wanted to give it out a little bit early. And so, but I have done a lot of press. about it. And I just want to say to you guys, feel free to not click or read anything that I say about the finale and just, no, no. And that's what I'm saying to the audience as well, which is basically like, just let it speak for itself. Don't, don't at least give yourself some space after it airs to not immediately go down the rabbit hole of what everybody else is thinking and make your peace with what you think before you decide to engage with others. I think that's, harder and harder to do these days, but it's something that we all had to do when something

like Twin Peaks was on. You couldn't talk with anybody about it unless you picked up the phone or you waited until the next day and went to school or the water cooler or whatever. But just kind of try to create that space for you. Like I've done a good job of not trying to like over-explain things or mystery be. But at the same time, you know, I'm grateful to you guys for not mentioning Lost at all in this conversation, but I feel like I have to mention it, which is Carlton and I ghosted. We went radio silent after the Lost finale. It aired, and then I went off to Italy for a month and did not talk about the show. And I'm not saying that the narrative around lost would be different had that not happened, but it's sure, it may have felt like we were hiding.

It may have felt like we didn't want to get out in front of what the reaction to the show was going to be. And so I just wanted to do the opposite this time. You know, there are certain things that I wanted to make sure we're clear, but I also wanted everybody to know of what we all did together, and I stand by it. And I hope everybody likes it, but if you don't like it, that doesn't change the fact that I stand by it, and I want to be here out in front. But if you just want to let the mystery be, if you just want the show to speak for itself, try to basically not click.

That would be the thing that I would offer. And then, you know, how am I feeling? You know, right now at this moment in time, I'm feeling really at peace with it all. But really proud of what we did and really feeling like it was a we. The collaborative effort and the storytellers and the actors and directors, you know, from Mimi Leader to, you know, all the other amazing directors, but this writer's room that we put together, particularly for the third and final season of the show, It's not taking away from any previous writer's rooms, but it's, you know, this was the greatest creative, greatest creative working experience of my life, and I miss them all dearly. And now that I haven't been in that room for many months, I, you know, it's even more special than it was at the time that it was happening.

But, you know, I have to sing their names or speak their names, you know, Patrick Somerville and Nick Hughes and Haley Harris and the incredible Tom's Parada and Speezy Alley, Tom. Carter, Carly Ray, Lila, Lillabioch, you know, just an amazing room. And I get to be here and talk about the show. But the leftovers would never have become what it became without those incredible individuals. And I'm just so happy to have worked with them. Well, we are so happy you could take time to talk to us about it. We're happy to have even indirectly inspired. I just can't believe that Damon lived season two of Master of Nunn after Lost.

Did you go to Moderna and learn how to make Tortellini? Like, what happened there? Oh, my God. I'm trying to get a reservation at that restaurant. So bad. But thank you for taking the time. Thank you for letting us indirectly inspire what I still consider to be

one of the most infuriating openings of a season in television history. Congratulations, though, man. Seriously, you should take a bow. Like, you did it. Oh, yeah. And we haven't watched the finale. Yeah, I know.

Oh, my God. Wait for our takes on Monday. All right, well, fingers crossed, yeah. Nope, don't, nope. Don't click. Please. Just watch it and don't go down the rabbit hole until you talk to each other about it. That's all that I ask. I hope you come on later in the summer as our special Twin Peaks correspondent. Deal.

All right. Get two lattes, sit in a room and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you, Damon Lindeloff. Later, man. Thanks so much for calling in. Thanks, guys. All right, thank you again to Damon Lindeloff for calling in on the eve of the leftovers season series finale. And, of course, thank you, as always, to Sean Fennacy, a friend of the pod.

You can listen to Sean's podcast, The Big Picture on Channel 33. The Leftovers airs Sunday on HBO. As does Twin Peaks. Greenwald and I will be back on Monday to talk about probably leftovers and Twin Peaks, I would imagine. I know we owe Fargo a catch-up. We're going to catch up Fargo hopefully by next Thursdays for you. I would love to do a little Master and Nun recap at the end. And yeah, I'm sure Zach Mack will be like, you guys got to talk about X or Y.

I'm going to try. I'm going to try. I'm going to try. Good for you. I'm going to try. All right. Listen, here's what I have to say. It's a great job by you, Baranskis. Thanks for, you. Great to go you.

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