The Watch - Breaking Down 'Avengers: Endgame' | The Watch

Episode Date: May 2, 2019

‘Avengers: Endgame' was pure entertainment (1:00). We break down the biggest flexes from the movie (6:51) where the franchise goes from here (13:18), what happened to our favorite characters (21:59), and who won the movie (40:42). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at the rigor.com and joining me in the studio, he survived the snap. It's Andy Greenwald. Twice in one week had to come in. I got a big steaming cup of pin particles to make up to make up for... Is that a columbay?

Do they have that? On Monday, my alter ego was drowsy man. That's good. That's a superhero name. That's good stuff. You should write for Seth Myers. Dad joke. But I'm here now, and I want to talk about this movie that I went to see.

Avengers Endgame. On track to be one of the most successful films of all time. Deserved. 1.6 Bill. Thank. Global. Just feeling great for my man, Bob Eiger. If you want to talk about the business side of it, I think you should listen to the big picture.

I guessed it on the big pick this week. I think you should listen to the big picture. Every week. Always. All the time. Sean Fantasy does such a great job of that podcast. He talked a lot about Avengers Endgame and the MCU. We're going to talk a little bit about this as a storytelling achievement.

And also we're going to go through a bunch of the characters in this movie. We're also just going to talk about the movie. We're also just going to talk about the movie. I asked Andy, do you want some structure to this podcast? And he's like, I think that would be best. Yeah. And then I did the structure and he was like, but I also just want to go off half cocked. I am Hulk 2012.

So go ahead, Smart Hulk. I'm so excited to talk about this movie. a couple things just going into it. Chris, you know this. You know my journey this week. You know my struggle. You know my truth. I just in case,

I sometimes think it's important to orient our listeners to our relative ages in the world. And not ages, not, you know, it's just a number. Angie, nothing but a number. As our departed queen, O'Leo once said.

Yeah. But I learned something about myself on Tuesday night. I thought I was, oh boy, how many bathroom breaks am I going to need years old. As it turns out, no, I am, oh God, I'm going to fall asleep years old. In a movie, I truly enjoy. This is also because it's only 24 hours removed from your boy enjoying the wines of

Southern Italy. That's right. Chris and I have had quite an ambitious week, especially during playoff time. A little bit of skin on that. We had a little skin contact. We had a nice dinner with our wives on Monday night. And then on Tuesday I had a complete by myself meeting at the Vista Theater. Yeah.

And I powered through. So congratulations to me, the real superhero. Yeah, you did two things in two nights. It took me a day to recover, but here I am. I am so excited to talk about this movie. There are a lot of different ways into it. I mean, it's just fascinating because, first of all, it was super fun. I had a great time.

I really liked it. Just purely as entertainment. Two, I remain totally flabbergasted and impressed by the structure, by the way they piece this together, the choices they made, And by they, I mean everyone involved from Kevin Feige and Luis Esposito, who I don't even know. I'm just trying out his name because he's clearly involved in every aspect of these movies. To the Russo brothers who directed them and Marcus and McPhile, the screenwriters. There is so much craft and construction involved in an undertaking like this, and they pulled it off. And under incredibly, it sounds like stressful circumstances.

I mean, while by all accounts, it's a lovely place to work and everything, I just. just mean they essentially shot endgame and Infinity War back to back, while also Black Panther and Captain Marvel and all these other movies were in production as well. And then the last piece of it that we're going to talk about is I just think this is what entertainment is now. You know, like to talk about it in the sort of meta slash business slash cultural way that we like to approach things, let's say the Chitari came, but they were chill. And they wanted to ask about what is popular entertainment? I mean, it is obviously this.

So they come in their giant, beetle spaceship, land on Los Angeles, and they say They're like, what do you know about Hulu Premium? What's content all about these days, guys? I'm sort of staggered and dazzled by it. It's quite an achievement. So I wanted to begin with a question for you

just to get us into it, and we'll say it again. We're going to spoil it. I imagine if you are eagerly awaiting a podcast about a global phenomenon that is debuting nine days after the movie premieres, then you're okay with us spoiling it. But my question for you, Chris, just as we get into it, I know you have given us some structure,

you've given us some characters to run through, and I'm excited to do it. But my question for you is, what was the biggest flex here? Now, I have finalists. You could add to this, if you like. Here are my candidates for biggest flex in endgame. Number one, the screenwriters, Marcus and McPhile,

for making Thor the Dark World canonically important. This was the first movie, they worked on as writers. It is generally regarded as the worst Marvel film. Do you think that we're ever going to be in a world where we're doing like coffee table books about Thor Dark World as like the misunderstood Chimino-esque masterpiece of the MCU? And it's like, Alan Taylor really just, uh...

I know. Apparently... He saw something in the negative space of Asgard that... As it turns out, the real dark elves were the friends we made along the way. Mallory Rubin likes this movie. I know she does. That is her wildest take. That was incredible to me that when I found out, because again, I thank you to everyone, thank you to Twitter, thank you to the universe, I was not spoiled at all.

Oh. I did not really know that they would be... Did you look at Twitter? I glanced. Okay. But I did not know that they would be dancing the light fantastic through their own movies. Oh, that's great stuff. So that was really fun to realize.

But I definitely, you know, if I had a wide open map of all the movies to revisit, Thor II, not. in my top 22. So that was amazing. Second candidate for Flex. There are five. Just to let you know, this isn't going to take all hour. The Russo Brothers for while crafting a movie in which the characters went to movies that they didn't direct, making sure to wedge in a callback to Captain America Winter Soldier's iconic elevator fight,

even though it had no purpose in this movie. And you know who else got to Flex in that? Frank Grillo. Your man. Who's like, I've been maintaining my shape. The tone, the muscle tone is still there from the elevator fight. Amazing. Yeah.

Of all the people they brought back. Grillo got to 45 and just frozen time. That's what I'm saying. That's what I really want for myself is like just pick a cool age like that and then never get older. Like Grillo will never get older than this. Do you understand what I'm saying? Have we not picked yet? Because I think we may have made a mistake.

That's the time stone dog right there. Got it. Because he picked it up and crushed it on an arm day. I don't know if people understand this, but one of the biggest CGI charge-offs in movies now is there are actors whose entire performances have little CGI things on their face, so they look younger the entire time.

I'm not going to name them. I will say that that was why negotiations broke down for me to return to Talk the Thrones this year, because that was not an ideal. If you're looking for an actor that they do that too often, it rhymes with Bichael Buggles. Well, no, in this one, they literally turned him into someone else. The China Syndrome, Michael Douglas, yeah.

Yeah, no, I was talking about an actor's name rhymes with Jom Flues. But, you know, but we're not naming names here. My point is Grillo does not need this technology. The future is Grillo. Number three, for Best Flex in the movie. Robert Downey Jr. For single-handedly pushing the rock up the mountain,

the boulder up the mountain, to make his Robert Evans impression canon. I thought that was very impressive. Yes. The scene where he comes back from space and I guess is drunk? No, he's malnourished. Oxygen's sick. It's interesting that that's the one time they've been like, these guys do need to eat, by the way. Also, this was the one time where they were like,

all right, what do you want to do? What do you want to do, Downey, Rob, Tony, whatever we call you now? Like, we'll clear out the lane. This is your movie. And by the way, he's been in what, like nine Marvel movies. And we've have joked and also joked with admiration that in many of them, the majority of his screen time was just him in a little helmet cam. that he clearly filmed in his backyard. Or wearing the weird tech fleece stuff that clearly he has like specially made for him by like a Tibetan tech flee. Listen to me. I have a whole bit I would like to do when I talk about their alter ego clothes.

Because they are fucking wild. Like, I want to talk to Mackie's beard guy. Anthony Mackie, you are a fine and brilliant actor. Can I tell you something? If you are about to be gifted the shield of Captain America, you should not have gotten your face situation. done in Orlando Circa 2002. Do you understand what I'm saying here? I know.

He looked like Ricky Waters. He looked like Ricky Waters throughout space time. So, okay. Kevin Feigey, the mastermind, the executive producer, the president of Marvel Studios, for making a three-hour movie that features in its cast Robert Redford, Michael Douglas, Michelle Pfeiffer, Renee Russo, and Tilda Swinton.

And collectively, they have 14 lines. and 11 of them are Tilda fucking Swinton's on a rooftop in 2012. By the way, I went to the bathroom during that. You did? Yeah, I was like, I got it. You need this dope. Tilda Swinton on a rooftop in New York City in 2012, that would be my end game.

Is that your fifth? No, there's one more. Okay. Natalie Portman. Fuck off. I was going to do this. The queen. Yeah.

Natalie Portman. From making us wonder, was it live or was it Memorex? I can't decide which version of her, reality stone is a bigger flex. Is it that they needed her, so Bradley Cooper's beloved CGI raccoon could

stick her with a space syringe to draw out a red stone. They didn't even show that, did they? No, they did not? He just is running with it. So did she show up for that? Here's my vision of... Here's my vision of what happened. What is it better... Just tell me this. Is it what's the win for her? Is it a win that they had to use old footage?

Or is it a win that she's like, I'll come to Atlanta for no reason? Here's what I think happened. Okay. I think they shot her scene like in Burbank. Okay. You know? And I think basically what happened was there is another movie directed by Michael Mann

in which Natalie Portman arrives with four guys wearing hockey masks, carrying automatic weapons. Right. With like roll up on Disney. She gets out of the back of an armored truck. Yeah. Walks through a shot and then goes up to Bob Eiger and he's like... And he hands her... Pay me right now.

He hands her the Bitcoin Stone. Yeah. It just call it. Is he called Ether? Yeah, it's the real Ethereum. Yeah. Incredible. She wins.

She wins, right? I mean, I would say Rousseau. Oscar winner Natalie Portman. I think Rousseau has more lines than anyone from Guardians. That's true. Rousseau has a lot of lines. Yeah. Rousseau, it's just also great because that was basically saying, Renee, we did you dirty.

We enjoyed your work in Velvet Buzzsaw. Nightcrawler, yeah. You're great. Just come hug Fat Thor. and tell him you love him, even though you're going to die today because you're a witch. Yeah.

Sure. Terrific. As we pivot to the rest of our conversation, do you have a winner from that? You think Portman. Portman. Okay, so as we pivot to the rest of our conversation, I want to say one word.

I mean, Cooper is the overall winner of the MCU. Oh, I think so, too. Like, I think by simple proxy of his schedule is not, like, he can just come in and be like, here's like four days' worth of lines. You make the raccoon do whatever. And then everything else is like, oh, we wanted to do this,

but we couldn't get Chris Pratt scheduled to line up. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cooper is like in... The raccoon is in so many scenes. The raccoon is in so many scenes. It's not just that. It's one of the best performances

across these movies. I know. I think the thing... Sometimes we, sometimes we, sometimes everyone makes fun of Bradley Cooper, sometimes for actors who, like, really overly commit to the bit. We are the lucky ones that he does it.

Because that performance does not need to be that good. It doesn't. There are actors in these movies. who would disagree with his level of commitment. And we're going to list some of that. It's also kind of like the Radiohead album Amnesiac, where I'm like, huh, okay, this is a choice. And then like three years later, I'm like, I love Amnesiac.

So I'm so into Rocket now. Which movie is his pyramid song? Is it this one? I think it was actually the last, it was Infinity War. It was when you realized if you put the talking raccoon with all the other characters, all the other characters are better. Yeah. Okay, I just want to say as we pivot now, there's one word that is not going to be said on this podcast, at least for me.

And that word is logic. Oh, yeah, I don't think we could do that. I, DGAF. I don't, I truly don't care. You don't care about whether or not, like, going back in time affects the future. Who cares? Or if. Guys, we collectively and culturally use the phrase comic book movie as a pejorative. This is a comic book movie.

I know. It works by comic book rules, comic book logic, and it's fine. By the way, proud boys, where are you out there on the internet talking about why does Steve Rogers not only know how to lift Thor's Hammer, but wield it with the expertise of an ageless Norse god? Like, are you trained for six seasons? You know what I'm saying? This is your issue? It's not an issue. I'm just saying, like, let him do it.

Let him work. So is that like an alt-right thing that Ariya shouldn't be able to stab? It's like a Gamergate dudes on the internet. Is it? Oh, yeah. Oh, I had no idea. Oh, she's a Mary Suu. She learned how to fight in time for this battle.

Let me tell you something. As someone who spends so much time to Game of Thrones, that is not the case. I know. All right. So you want to do character by character? Because I also have a secret R.E. Star Kill list of characters I DGAF about it. Well, that's what I was thinking we could do.

I mean, if you wanted to talk a little bit more about it in general, I mean, I was going to ask you. Did you like the movie? We haven't even said that yet. I know. You've been on a roll. This is like the counter. of your Monday show.

I told you I would come in high. You had like spider webs on your eyes on Monday. And now you're like, here's the thing. On time travel. There was a moment on Monday show that Kaya expertly edited out where my soul stone exited my face in mid-talk. You were brain dead. I powered down.

There was no electricity going through your mind. No. I like the movie very much. I would say that like all Marvel movies, I felt it start to fade as soon as I was over. Like even when you were like, so I saw it Sunday, or Saturday rather, and Greenwald saw it Tuesday. And even when you were like, I'm going to see it Tuesday,

I was watching a basketball game thinking, oh, he's probably watching the movie right now. And I was like, what happened in this movie? So that's the only thing. I think that there is something really interesting going on right now. You brought up Thrones. I think in some ways Thrones is a little bit of a victim of its own memeification. You know, I think that there's been so much hype around it,

and there's so many catchphrases and tropes and wimps and wimps. and ways in which we talk about, like, who will sit on the throne and blah, blah, blah, and, like, who's the prince of his promised? And, like, all those things are very relevant to the story. But I think it's almost, like, now affecting how we watch the show itself. On the other hand,

I think Marvel is actually a beneficiary of its cultural dominance, where I think this movie could have been, like, 25% worse, and I think people would have really loved it. Yes. Now, that's not to take away from the film. You mean that it's better that it has, It almost needed to be good.

It was almost a requirement that, like, we were going to like it. You know, and I think that they had a couple of character beats that were going to guarantee that it was good. I think that the ending did that. But in some ways, like, Marvel's success has created this air of quality that I don't think it always, the MCU has always had. No, the turn to the end, I mean, there's some, the reason, I mean, maybe this is true of all films, let alone film franchises. It ultimately always comes down to hiring the right people, so not just a stroke of luck. sometimes the person you think you're going to hire isn't available or whatever, and you end up with someone else and it all works out.

Hiring the Russo Brothers to do Captain America, too, was thought of as a risk at the time. For sure. Hiring Downey was at risk, actually, if you go all the way back. What's truly amazing, and I think this is really how empires are shaped, whether they are, you know, galactic, literal, or otherwise, is you've got to finish strong. And the 22 movie story that has become part of the narrative has a lot of, of weak links in the chain. And not just weak links in the chain.

It was not this. It really only became this, or started to become this, with Winter Soldier. The Russo brothers and Marcus McPhile found something and followed it through to the end. Then the branches to do the thing that you went to the bathroom for where Ruffalo and Tildas winter are doing the timeline. I got what it was about, yeah. It's then they found a couple other people who also get it. And James Gunn, you cannot be here without what he did.

And I think Taika Watiti also and Coogler. I think those are the people who collectively understood the promise, the fun, the spectacle, the grandeur, the size, and the emotional weight to make this what it is. And I will say that this has been a movie probably, it's obviously 10 years and 20-some movies in the making. And even the, even different than Infinity War, I would say, this movie Endgame had moments that I thought were like almost contractually like Evans and Downey were like, I'll do this. but then on the last one, we get to do X, Y, and Z. Also, we get to do group therapy. We get to be skinny and pretend we're Robert Evans.

We get to live in Big Sur with her family, with Pepper and the kid and decide, like, it's actually, like, I'd rather protect my family than the world. All this stuff that I thought was, like, pretty adult. And this is what I was kind of saying this to Sean and Amanda on Monday, that, like, this is what happens when you can raise a generation of fans is that you can prepare them for these more adult ideas. Oh, absolutely. And I mean, let alone the fact, and Sean and Mallory talked about this really well in the big picture, it is, we are glossing over the fact that this is going to be top five highest grossing film of all time, maybe more.

You needed to see at least 10 to 15 of other movies before you could see this movie. It would not make any sense to you. That sudden, not just confidence in serialized storytelling, but assumption of serialized storytelling is a radical shift from where anything was in the past in terms of mainstream storytelling. And you could say it's also the end of a kind of storytelling in some ways. I'm obviously not sure about that. But so many of these characters are going to Disney Plus.

And I think that this time around, based on certain things that Aiger and Feigey are saying, they're really serious about this. This isn't like, yeah, we have like four Netflix shows and we're going to try Jessica Jones out on that. Or agents of shield, but we're going to immediately

stop the idea that agents of shield is somehow a connective tissue to the Avengers movies. They're really serious about doing six-episode major Avengers storyline. Me series, basically. And I don't know whether or not, like, I do think when you look at, like, the slate that they have and the exhaustion collectively on the part of the people who have been making these movies for the last 10 years, there's going to be a powering down and a changing of how they deliver this stuff a little bit. It'll be a long time before something like this happens again is what I mean.

I think it's safe to say this is this generation Star Wars. Everyone keeps saying, what's this, you know, what's going to be like Star Wars again? Is Star Wars going to be Star Wars again? No, it was this. This was it. I mean, the reaction that people had in a theater on a Tuesday night in a packed theater, the reaction I'm hearing from people who saw it at normal movie going times that they heard in the theater. The way people of all ages are seeing these movies, the way people are marking their own maturation with these movies.

And going multiple times, which is always the sign of like actual, an actual blockbuster is when you see people who are like, oh, I've already seen it two or three times. And this might be giving too much credit to Figey, but I think that he's earned, I think he's probably, frankly, he's earned it. If this is our Star Wars, they are, they may be smart, they may be ahead of the curve, they may be shifting to actual 2019 Star Wars now.

And what I mean is we're seeing in these big movies and then we're seeing the Mandalorian show that Star Wars, this idea of Star Wars as a once a year, every three years, every 10 years, mega event no longer seems to be fully in step with the culture, what Star Wars needs to be,

both from a brand perspective and a company perspective shareholders, but also for the way people consume stories is a constant 24-7-365 thing with TV series and interlocking things. It's probably smart to diversify the portfolio, to go from a $600 million movie that makes $2 billion

every however many years to, as you were saying, a more constant stream of content. Which is a lot more like comic books. And a lot more like TV. So I do think it is the end of an era in terms of the way they're going to tell these stories for good or for ill. We're going to do some Avengers character studies. Okay.

We're just going to talk about both the character and the actor. I got a list here. Some people are on-screen talent. Yeah. Some people are behind scenes. I can't wait. I have my own list, by the way. And the headline is people we don't actually care about.

But we'll see how they understand. I like the fact that we're doing this like a front-of-the-book magazine. Charticals? Yeah. I often have felt pressure to talk about this person over the last few years. Yeah. I feel like it's almost like great jazz. It's like when the solo hits me, I'm ready to talk about it and ready to play it. But not always. You know what I mean?

And sometimes I might want to turn my back on the audience and just blow a little, you know? Absolutely. You got to read the room. But let's talk about Hawkeye. Let's talk about Hawkeye. Jeremy Renner, back as Hawkeye, after not appearing in Infinity War, right? And he essentially has Benicio del Toro's Sicario character arc. He does. It's one of the more like, it is honestly the funniest thing in this movie.

It's so weird. Is that the idea of Black Widow sacrificing herself for him so that he can get his family back. Yeah. And he's straight up as just like, I've done some really dark shit. Please don't die at my expense. Yeah. And then like this idea that he goes back to Cartilini. And she's like, what did you do during the snap?

He's like, well, I'd like to show you a movie called Dave the Soldado. Because I've been on a multi-year, multinational murder spree. It's like unlike anything in anything, like for some reason, him doing this is like more jarring than Thanos. Another thing, hon. Remember the bone arrows? I do swords now. I sure do. I gut people.

I have a mohawk and an arm sleeve of tats. Yeah. And I just show up in Tokyo and murder Yakuza. When his cell phone rang with a helpful photo, was there a moment where he was like, oh boy. Because you know, sometimes if you're out a little too late and your significant other calls and you're like, how am I playing this? You got to get the story straight.

Siri clean up DNA evidence. Seriously. A couple things. One of the things that I admire most about the way they put these last two Avengers movies together is that the Russo Brothers and Marcus and McPhilee look at what was given to them across the other movies. And I think they use people, plot lines, emotional ether well and correctly. Starting the movie, like what Joss Whedon did with the Hawkeye character in Ultron with this secret family in Kansas was so odd and jarring. and not my favorite part. Is that canonical too?

No. Yeah. But they took it, they saw that, and it was actually a brilliant way to begin this movie. With the sort of the leftovers thing, and it was beautifully shot, and it was really, you know. And then the traffic song drops, yeah. It was really well done and surprising for a movie of this scale.

Hawkeye, in the comic books, one of my favorite characters, particularly, you know, the Matt Fraction version. But across the board, always kind of an interesting character to me. It is canon that at one point he stops being Hawkeye and becomes Ronan and wears a mask and has swords now. I guess that's an easy transition. But when Black Widow is like the Federale discovered like a shipping container full of bodies. What Barton did? Yeah.

I would say this movie's grasp on what PG-13 means or should mean surprised me at times. Yes. A lot of ass talk. Yeah. A lot of shits. Yeah. A lot of beheadings with purple blood gushing out. Gallagher, I was talking to Jason Gallagher, because he and I often argue about, you know, I'll be like, oh, I didn't like this movie.

And he's like, well, it was for some of my son's age. And I'm like, well, that's not my problem. Yeah. And I asked him. Cool talk, Chris. Uncle Chris strikes again. That's great. I love when you gave my daughter's assigned laser disc of Day of the Soldado.

One day, one day, my girls. I kneeled down before your daughter gave her a samurai sword. He did. You're like, this will pay off. No, and he was just, I was like, you need to take your kid to Endgame? And he was like, I don't think he's ready. Yeah, I mean, I didn't think some of that stuff was necessary, considering it worked well emotionally. And, you know, it was, that stuff didn't make it skew older.

I guess that stuff is more like teenage, actually. But anyway, I have this long preamble to say, I'm sorry, despite all best efforts, MCU Hawkeye sucks. Hawkeye sucks. And Renner, whom we adore, there's no one who's aesthetic. whose devotion to the project would I rather have working on my structure is super bad in this role

in a really weird way if you want a guy to create an open floor plan put in some modern appliances and maybe have an incredible subway tile backslash he's your guy but if you want somebody to be the driving force of a film and the emotional crux of it

outside of Captain the bass thrum if you will apparently wrong which is shocking because I don't know that any movie star has been more underutilized than him in the last 10 years. When you consider like he comes out of 08 with Her Locker, the town in 10, and then this kind of series of weird missteps. Ghost Protocol, born in 12, which we loved, but he was probably the third best thing in. He is. Fourth maybe, if you consider Rachel Vice and Oscar Isaac ahead of him.

I do. And Edward Norton obviously is, you know, that guy's in Cooperstown because of that. that movie. The immigrant, he was good. American Hustle, he was fine. He's in only in it for a little bit. And then he kind of wastes away in these movies. He wastes away in Avengers and Ultron

and Hansel and Gretel. And then he's in Civil War. And he kind of has a comeback with a rival in Win River, but since then he's done the house tag, end game, and he's going to be in Spawn. I don't know what's going on. And apparently he's going to keep playing Hawkeye on Disney Plus.

The only moment of his that worked from me is when he turned to Natasha and gave her a crazy-ass, murk while running over the cliff to his death. That was like the town. Yeah. Renner. I mean, look, there's two things, and this could be a whole separate podcast.

Because he was like, finally, I can end my dark pain. Yeah. Look, there's two. Doing one good thing. There's two conversations here. One is character actors who chase that leading cheddar and get lost in CGI and blockbuster stuff. Two, are there actors whose skill sets, whose method, who's strait who's,

Strategies of performance don't work on front of green screens in Atlanta. It just doesn't work. And unfortunately, he's one of them, and that was frustrating. The weakest parts of this movie for me were the moments when I thought the architecture was clever, but it relied on using everyone, using everything they had, using nose to tail, directing and screenwriting, if you will. But the particular bits weren't up to the challenge, even of the small connective tissue they were asked to do. Right.

And if we're speaking about actors who don't seem to be able to bring it in front of green screens in Atlanta, it was on some level affirming to see that even the greats, even the Russo Brothers and Marcus and McPhile also don't know what the fuck to do with Captain Marvel. Yeah.

I mean, this was a tough look. Let's do Captain Marvel. Another tough look for an Oscar winner. Well, okay, so a couple of caveats. She shot this before Captain Marvel. I don't think that there seems to be quite yet an understanding of what to do with this character because they've typically introduced these people and hedge their bets. Yes, they've gone all in.

Yes, these things get huge promotional pushes. But I think if Guardians had somehow fallen flat, there was a plan B. I think if Dr. Strange completely missed, there was a plan B. They didn't really seem to have a plan B with Captain Marvel. Like, they have really said she's kind of the figurehead of the next, of, like, the next phase of all this, right? They were way out in front of their skis on this, because what you're, you're absolutely right about plan B's. Like, for example, they figured out pretty quickly that Hulk isn't a movie. Hulk in other movies can be great.

Well, didn't, isn't it also like they can't do Hulk as a standalone movie because of some rights issue? No, they can. Oh, they can. They can't. The Norton Hulk is canon in this, in the MCU. Right. It's just recast. that is this character's life or whatever.

That's all connected. You know, they decide who works best in what context. What if Ed Norton had been in the Atlanta in the funeral scene? Can you imagine? So it's weird. Yeah, all the caveats are worth saying. This was the first time she'd ever played the part. They did this, I think, before they had, certainly, I mean, I was going to make,

I was going to say before they had a finished script for her own movie. I would have the caveat. I don't think they ever had finished scripts. It's a living document. But the performance is so strange and self-aware and wooden. And then the character is just omnipotent. So they just kind of used her as a missile, which was probably the best use, frankly. But there is no spark, there is no life, there is no anything in this character, which is worrisome.

She's a cheat code. I mean, when she shows up, she saves Downey. It's not like she's got like an IV bag with her. She just somehow saves Downey out in space in the beginning. when she shows up later she is, like you said, a heat-seeking missile and just destroys a bunch of spaceships,

which ultimately doesn't matter, but, like, I mean, she needs to, it's like completely turns the tide of that battle. And I don't want to say, and I don't think I said enough of this when we were reviewing critically her own movie, first of all, the movie's made like a billion dollars. It's a success.

So you don't need me saying, I didn't like it to justify making more. Yeah, but that's exactly what I was talking about in the beginning, where I was like, the success of the movie should not, No, and the importance of her character and her role in this should not be diminished. Right.

It should also be better. And that's a little worrisome, especially for the future, which we haven't even pivoted to yet, if she's the lynchpin up. But she's basically doing Jeff Bridges from Starman. They've made her, even though she's supposed to be this focal point, because she is like half alien, because she doesn't remember anything, because, you know, all these things. And I also don't really know that her powers, so to speak, are, are really. really understandable. Yeah, it's a problem for them going forward. Yeah, well, we'll talk more about what's going to happen going forward.

We can blow through some of these if you want to. Let's do it. Let's talk more people. I wanted to just say that in many ways, I think Rudd is the new downy. Boy, Rudd was great in this movie. So, Rudd now... Boy, they used him really well. Iron Man in these movies has always been there to be this sarcastic, cynical audience avatar for, like, I can't believe we're putting on capes and shit.

And if I am putting on an iron suit, that's really cool. Let's listen to Metal and do it. Now, Rudd is basically just like, Ant Man's a thief, and he's like a one-liner machine, but they've really smartly positioned him as the guy who's like, what are you guys talking about? And it really, really works storytelling-wise. Voice of the common person.

But also, it's just a nice energy. Like, I mean, that's the other thing. Like, ultimately, at the end of the day you look at this, hanging with Hemsworth, hanging with Rud, hanging with Cooper's raccoon voice, I mean, these are characters and performances that are just deeply pleasurable to be around. Is it more Dorito than protein bar in terms of lasting power?

Sure. Doritos are amazing. Who else you got? That was not sponsored content, by the way. I would love it to be. I've got Black Widow, a.k.a. the Melissa Offdimore of the Avengers. You know, there's a moment, I think it's at the end of,

I don't remember which Avengers movie, but at the end of one of the movies when there are no more Avengers, and you see, like, here are the new Avengers, right? and it's cap and it's Black Widow and Scarlet Witch and Vision and War Machine. I think that's at the end Maltron. And guess what? That Avengers team sucks because it's super boring. And it's really good that they pivoted away from it in a hurry.

And I don't know what it means going forward because, look, I really like Scarlett Johansson. I like what she's done in some of these movies. They've done a pretty good job with this central problem with the Avengers in the comics, too, which is when you go charging at the God of death and you have a living space battery and the Hulk, a Russian assassin with a pistol, doesn't make that much sense, but it's pretty brave of her to try.

Well, they kind of made her the new Nick Fury in this. And then they killed her. And the sacrifice is what it is, but in general I would look at her entire six, seven movie arc as a missed opportunity, because she doesn't do anything and she's not that interesting. And they didn't even let the Bruce Banner romance thing cook, you know, which, by the way, is not exactly flying past the Bechdel test.

If I'm like, you know, it would have made her more interesting a boyfriend? Why don't you smile more, Natasha? I mean, look, I apologize for even suggesting that, but it was a miss. And so the sacrifice was, I mean, I know that she's making a prequel movie for $25 million, but like, let's... Yeah, what if it's the Black Widow supremacy? Great. Make the spy movie. She should have been it.

Yeah, okay. Let's do Thanos. I thought it was pretty cool how they've killed this guy like four times in two movies. It's like a comic book. It's great. No, but I actually think when he first starts appearing in these movies and when he first starts, you know, he's obviously in, I think, the tag of one. He is. Before it was Brolin.

Yeah, and he pops up a couple of times after that before we get to Infinity War. He's in one of the guardians. I was a little skeptical about it. You know what you mean? I was just kind of like, I don't really. get it. I know that there's like a mythology behind him being in love with death and all this stuff. Did that really ever come across? No, I mean, he's just basically

like... They made him a climate warrior. Yeah. He basically is like, I think that if there was just half of you, you guys would all be happier. He's the Bill McKibbon of outer space. That's right. Way better that it had any business being. A good villain. A good villain.

Also, but also was like, I thought they did a really good job being like he's actually not the villain. The villain is time itself or, you know, like, you know, it doesn't matter what the avatar is. Yeah. It's just going to be, it's just going to always be something.

And he is like, but a messenger. And let me say that in its own way, it's not exactly like Palm Dora-Cann way, but in its own way, this movie or the two movies that made up this cycle, made a relatively compelling case in a perverse way for what he wanted, because first of all, who wouldn't want to eat those delicious space fruits that he was harvesting on his garden planet? But two, what I heard about the post-snap world

was that there were whales in the Hudson River and the New York Mets don't exist. And I'm like, sign me up. Sign me up. I'm sorry, if they wanted me to be on his side. There's never a line at Morrie's bagels. No, I mean, there were pluses. Yeah. By the way, just side note, we knew from the trailers and from the events of the last movie that it would be the leftovers, or at least there would be elements of the leftovers to show that you and I learned to love very much. What I didn't appreciate was that the resolution of it would be manifest. For people who don't know, manifest, that hit NBC show about people who disappear for five years or something and then come back and everyone else has aged. So my question is, is Spider-Man far from home about a bunch of

annoyed 23-year-olds who have been held back for five years? This is a big thing. Because Peter Parker, has been gone. Right. Or did they all go to? Or were they all gone? It's fascinating. Manifest shares a floor with us. You've been over to our writer's room.

We're in the same space, and I have not broached it with them yet. I'm wondering if they feel its homage. Have you broached anything with them yet? They keep themselves. Okay. That would be a good opening gambit. They brought us donuts.

That's nice. Which was very nice. They seemed like a cheerful group. So, Thanos, good villain. Good villain. A lot more. nebula than I thought there was going to be. Really surprised. And by the way, over the last two

movies, I was just like, man, that's a lot of nebula. Karen Gillen's really good. She sure is. It is not the kind of thing. I think Sean said this in his podcast as well. Not the most famous character, not the most iconic character, a character that does exist in comics with a slightly different story, I think, backstory. But the kind of thing that James Gunn was so smart about who he picked out of the Marvel Handbook, basically, of who he wanted to use. And in a way that I don't think any of us appreciated because she was sort of lost in the blur of blue people. But it's a terrific performance and weirdly, you know, sort of became this the soul of the movies in a way. Yeah. I mean, she definitely bore the most sort of scars from all of it, you know?

I mean, she was like literally, and I think that they chose to put a lot of that pain on someone who was not like a real looking person. for the exact reasons we're talking about with it being a PG-13. Essentially, you want to have this kind of distance between what the impact of this stuff is on the kids who are watching this movie. She was kind of one of a few people that I was surprised to see this much burn for. War Machine? I mean, sorry, I mean, if you want Don Cheadle, watch Black Monday. You know what I mean?

Like, he didn't throw himself off a cliff, but, like, I don't think. think he booked a return ticket to Atlanta. I just, why? I don't know. Why? Were you surprised about how big the pot was, the pepper pot? Oh, for the Gwyneth got in on the action? Everything. Gwyneth was like the emotional sort of inflection point of the movie. She was good. By the way, good actress. Always has been. Great newsletter. Reading about composting. Look, she just keeps giving. I think clearly she and Downey have a nice report and enjoy working together. again, to your point about him wanting to help sculpt the story he got to tell, I think that aspect of it was probably important to him.

Yeah. And really clever and enjoyable and emotionally resonant. That's a nice way to talk about something that I wanted to say about the movie, which is, again, I don't know who actually, if other hands get on these movies, if there are joke passes of other writers, in as much as something this so overtly and intentionally cobbled together, and I mean that as a compliment, could be written by just one or two people, I think this was written by one or two people, and I will give them even more credit.

They are one or two people. I've never met them. I don't know them at all. But they have a passing familiarity with human emotion. The movies, the Blockbuster movies that are written by committee, they're usually like placeholders for where the emotional part should be, and it just, you feel it. You feel either manipulated or you feel nothing. The emotional heartstring tugging parts of this film landed.

They were thoughtful, they were considerate. They were based at least in as much as a movie. like this could be based, I think, in actual experiences and feelings of loss. Yeah. Especially related to family, whether those are blood family or people who become your family. And I thought that was just really wonderfully done. And so the Tony Stark death was the rare thing in movies where, yes, I think we all understood it was coming.

We all feel it was time. I thought it was considered. It was appropriate to the character. And this thing they did, again, it's kind of a screenwriting trick, but it's also really sweet and impressive. The hologram thing? Well, not just the hologram thing. They gave him his happy ending. And then it was time, you know, and then having pepper pots be there and say, we'll be fine, you know, both as an incredibly moving and powerful and emotional thing for someone. But also because she stands to inherit a billion-dollar Stark Industries.

She's Lerine Powell jobs going forward. She's like, I'm going to buy the Atlantic. And I'm going to make sure that journalism always lives. I'm passionate about good journalism in the MCU. She's going to buy the Daily Bugle, tell him the stop the smirching Spider-Man's good name. Good stuff by her. Surprising burn time, but good stuff. I have, like, the last couple. I mean, we've talked about Iron Man a lot.

Should we talk about Captain America? It's wonderful stuff. Wonderful stuff. Like, again, a thoughtful, considered resolution to the storyline that was created, not by the Russo Brothers, but by Joe Johnson and the First Avenger, but then basically he was their character, right?

Yeah. And they gave him his dance. Like, I loved, they said this in their interview with our old friend David Schoff in the time, about the way they looked at Iron Man and Captain America. I like that they have a secondary and tertiary way of thinking about the characters. It wasn't just, well, Tony says this, and Cap says this, and Civil War is going to happen. It was that their arcs were parallel, that Tony Stark across these MCU movies was moving from selfishness to selflessness.

And in a way, Captain America was doing the reverse. Not that he was selfish at the end, but that he finally... He finally lived a life. He did something for himself and for his own... for it and lived a life and the way they found for him to do it. And by the way, leaving open the possibility for Steve Rogers' time pirate

with him putting all the stones back. I think that there is a slight there's a one in a hundred chance that Evans becomes the new Downey. And shows up in three or four movies in like ten minutes at a time. In the old makeup?

Or dancing through time. I mean that's a good question. That's a good question. I forgot about that. Well, he could do that and that's also canon. I guess this is why I shouldn't write Marvel movies. The other reason why I shouldn't write Marvel movies is because even as he was old, because you hate money. I was like, I wonder if Frank Grillo was going to emerge out of like the time machine

and beat the shit out of old Steve Rogers. But also look the same. He's like, I am old. This is what I look like. I am now old bones. Yeah. I guess that's true. He would have there, there's a couple of blocks there for Evans was a little bit more equivocating

about like whether or not this is the end for him. Now I'm completely in the tank. it like the beauty of it is, but he could show up as an old guy for a scene or not. You know, clearly, the old rule, you know, I don't think, old Captain American. I don't think we can communicate this enough to younger listeners, but just the fact that actors who can lead franchises, who can do anything they want, show up for 30 seconds of screen time, is such a seismic shift in the way actors used to be, not just allowed to be in projects, but the way careers were shaped.

Yeah. It would not, you know, to show up, you would need your millions of dollars and your, you your screen time and your billing and everything. And this is such a collective enterprise, whether it's based on back-end participation or whether it's based on actual goodwill and collegiality onset in Atlanta. People show up.

People show up for this stuff. I'm trying to think of that there's anybody else I wanted to hit. Thor? Thor Lobowski. There was a moment there where I was like, are they going to have, like, is part of time travel going to be like Thor's going to go back and do some crunches?

Do Pilates? I thought so too. Like, he's going to go back and go paleo? The moment they realized Hemsworth was funny and they allowed the character to be funny It arguably saved the entire thing It did save the entire thing Because not to go back to the dark world

But one of the reasons why it was I mean it's just sort of a meh movie But the idea of this sort of self-important You know mythology Dark Elves stuff It can be exhausting And the reason Thor is really good in the comics When he's really good

And the writer Jason Aaron just did a great run On the character is because it can be majestic, but he can also get super drunk and ride a space goat, which is a canonical character, by the way. And Hemsworth, probably the star of these movies,

certainly the one everyone's most excited to see at this point, which is radical, considering where it started. And I actually think as Guardians of the Galaxy will be like maybe, it has the chance to be the best movie, one of the best movies they make. Maybe he does, maybe he does,

and we don't know where he's at with things. But that was the moment in the beginning where I was like maybe they've gone too far with the jokes in this movie because often the jokes have been on the James Gunn movies or Ragnarok. You know, maybe these guys don't know how to mix up the medicine just right.

Yeah. But they did. They found the exact right rhythm, whether it's the Hulk making tacos or whether it's him drinking beer and corg offering the Wi-Fi. It embraced the absurdity in the same way that the best comics do.

So let's talk a little bit about the future. Okay. If you had to guess in 10 years. Do you want me to say that Scarlet Witch is also boring, or is that implicit? I mean, we could go through any of the other characters you want to. If you had to guess in 10 years, do you think the Russo brothers will be Steven Spielberg or Sam Ramey? In terms of their own career? Not that there's only those two choices.

But Sam Ramey, amazing director, obviously was at one point making those Spider-Man movies. People were like, this guy is just like, and now kind of just works when he wants to, but makes smaller. It's a great question. I think the answer is neither, and I think the reason the answer is neither is because the entertainment industry has changed so radically. They already have a deal that basically gives them their own mini studio. They have a deal where they can develop and they can develop constantly for all formats. They have deadly class as a TV show already on sci-fi. They can be moguls themselves.

And they're making cherry. Yeah, their brand is very... With Tom Holland. It's very different. Yeah. You know, and this has set them up for a wild amount of success that does not live or die on the choices of what movies they make to direct, which is really good for them, honestly, because where do you go here after doing this, the perception game, like, what could you possibly do that could match it? And so instead of trying to go higher, you go wider. Do you want to keep going along with the characters who are in place with some new additions, whether it's the Eternals or whoever?

But like Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Ant Man, Dr. Strange, the Guardians, Thor. So you lose Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow. Well, Sam's Captain America now. Sorry, Chris, Steve Rogers. Do you want to keep going along with this core group? Which, by the way, is also canon. And keep it during.

I've used to get word a lot. That happens in the comics. In the comics, does he have a better beard? Yes. I mean, seriously, yes. Or do you want to start from zero and start putting together the Fantastic Four X-Men

stuff. I think that's, you know, it's funny, I just said this about the Russo Brothers, but I do think that's the play here. The Marvel Universe isn't going to go away, but it's also not, I think, going to begin assembling itself towards a peak. The question is, does it revolve around a sun?

And the sun being like these team-up movies that'll happen every five years. I think it's going to go wider. I think the stories are going to start being on Disney Pleas, as we talked about, but I also think... We really are so committed to saying that. You can't undo it.

I think a large... How long did it take for Bill to start saying Oklahoma City Thunder? Like five years, right? So I feel like that's our model. I think a lot of what's happening in Disney right now in like the deep dev labs where they don't even print the scripts out

is fantastic for an X-Men-related. What are they going to do with these properties? How are they going to fold them in? I think that Eternals, we have no idea what it's going to be. Fascinating director, really compelling cast, but even more so than Guardians, it's a, this isn't even a thing. This is a Jack Kirby concept that is never really solidified around a story. So it's a really big swing. Shang Chi just signed

Destin Cretton, who, the director of the century's most important film short term 12. Seriously. I know we love that. I think that's kind of exciting and cool, but that's also not necessarily on the scale of these other movies. It does seem to me to be turning into something more wide-ranging and more fluid where you're going to be excited to see Dr. Strange appear in a supporting role in the second act of a movie where you might not have expected him. It makes sense. You know, they can tell, they've broken the mold in terms of what's expected because I think the radical delivery service for this story has broken this idea that there are trilogies.

It has to be a trilogy, and the trilogy will be done over six years and then you move on. It's just going to keep going, but I think that they will be, I think they've been very smart about underlining how finite and final this version is. Yeah. Because you cannot make a traditional epic if you don't build it around the traditional longer emotional arcs

of those big, big, big stars like you had in place for this one. So, and frankly, as we've seen, Black Panther, probably the most compelling standalone superhero movie of this decade ever. Who knows?

Tichala doesn't really work. as well in someone else's movie. Right. Right. It's wonderful to see him and his friends there and it was a really cool moment and everyone got so excited to see them.

Well, I think that there just feels like that was such a well-realized story and a well-realized world that you're almost like, there's this like phantom limb where you're like, but I want to know what's going on in Wakanda. Yeah. And it did happen in Infinity War and that was pretty cool.

And in the Infinity War's story to some extent tied in with the themes of Black Panther. So I thought it was well done. Anything else you want to hit before we take off? Um, It's interesting. I'm reaching for some analogy. Maybe you can come up with something like some sort of like Mori Ball or some NBA analogy that will work and will be very on brand for Ringer content.

But like we are, it's just shifting. And it's shifting at the right time as our storytelling culture is shifting from a star-based system to just the content is the star. And you can go in a lot of different directions with it. Yeah. Like there aren't the, in terms of the storytelling firmament, like Chadwick Bozeman's character can be up there on Mount Rushmore with Hemsworth and Evans and. Downey. Is Tessa Thompson there yet as Valkyry? Maybe not yet. But boys, it's fucking exciting to see her and see her ride a winged horse. That was really cool. And she's just great in this part. And so there are more stories to tell there. So in terms of optimism about these stories, I'm weirdly more optimistic

now because I think they seem pretty creative and fluid as to how they're going to do it. And for as much as I like these movies and as much as I have some skepticism about the Disney Blues miniseries, what we've heard about them suggests that they are doing on a smaller scale. what they did initially with the movies, which is pairing the talent with the best possible version of the character and story. Yeah, and I think it's pretty fascinating

to think about Thrones ending, Avengers ending, and the Skywalker saga ending all in the same year, and all three of those things being potentially, some would say cannibalized, some would say expanded,

some would say, you know, their portfolio was being diversified, but we could be sitting here in three or four years, God, whatever we're saying. Well, I'll be frozen at this age because I'm going to grill it on myself. You're going to grill it yourself.

We could be sitting here in a few years and being like, oh, there's three Game of Thrones shows on the AT&T Warner streaming service. There are 10 Marvel shows. Benny Off and Weiss have a Star Wars trilogy. Ryan Johnson has a Star Wars trilogy. There's anthology shows on Disney Plus. There's spinoffs from the Skywalker saga

with Ray or Po or whoever. and that's how we get these stories now, not in this way that we're talking about, where it's like everything, building up and the hype and everything. And I think I have mixed feelings about that. I do like Super Bowls. I do like Oscar nights.

I do like three months of anticipation. And then... I agree. It was really fun to be able to go see this movie and have a certain level of confidence that I would enjoy it because I enjoy the people making it. I enjoy the people in it.

And, you know, one of the things that I said often, and I probably said too often on this podcast, is that the difficulty in the last years of being a TV critic for me, and I think that it's continued probably exponentially so for people who are still in the field practicing it every day, is that it started to feel less like arts writing and more like wealth management advising, and that readers were saying,

I have X number of hours per week, I need you to tell me how best to spend my capital, which is a very different equation as to in terms of how to process and how to comment or how to criticize or appreciate. art. That said, 21 movies of time and thought capital invested in this project

paid off. It felt like a really solid, really enjoyable return on investment. And that is a very specific feeling that is very hard to pull off and really remarkable and worth commenting on. And I don't know if you feel the same sort of thing if, you know, with New Star Wars,

Wars projects and movies, I don't feel that same cumulative build. I just kind of feel like I'm just being marketed to, you know, because they, because they have my cell phone on records from the last time I gave it to them. You know what I mean? And the same thing with Game of Thrones. Like, I don't, I don't know if I... Want to know what happened the first long night. If it's a good show, maybe I'll get on board. But for Marvel, you're like, there's a little bit less of like a bar to clear. Yes, although maybe even that's starting to fray, which is why they're adjusting. You know, you and I went to see Captain Marvel together, and for the first time we're like,

what are we doing with our evening? Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right, though. I was looking through all the different phases. Phase one, if you just consider it a kind of getting a building going, you can't really judge too critically. But even in two, which I think probably had my favorite couple of movies, like it has Iron Man three, which I still think is such a weird gambit to let Shane Black make an iron. was the kid from Iron Man 3 at the funeral.

Ty Simpkins, yeah. That's amazing to me. Winter Soldier and Guardians, it also says Dark World and Ultron. But I really like Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier, Guardians, and Ant Man. Those were really good movies. And then the most recent one, it's been Civil War, Dr. Strange, Guardians 2, Spider-Man

Homecoming, Ragnarok, Black Panther, Infinity War, Ant-Man Wasp, Captain Marvel, and end game. Some slight duds there. Yeah, I'll come down. But some real home runs in the most recent thing, too. So, it's interesting, but if you take away the critic hats and take away the word like logic,

I do, you and I have always enjoyed mass entertainment and shared collective experience. This was really fun. It's been the high water season for that. Yeah. It's been high season for that. All right, man. So you'll be with us Monday?

Yeah, talk to us. Okay. See you later. Can I get a coffee before Monday show? Sure. It works, right? It does. Apparently coffee works, guys.

Stay Grylo.