The Watch - Breaking Down Each Episode of ‘Black Mirror’ Season 5 With Creators Annabel Jones and Charlie Brooker | The Watch

Episode Date: June 7, 2019

Chris is joined by ‘Black Mirror’ creators Annabel Jones and Charlie Brooker to talk about some of the challenges of creating the anthology series (2:34). Then they break down each episode from Season 5: “Striking Viper” (20:50), “Smithereens” (33:46), and “Rachel, Jack and Ashley Too” (48:38). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Charlie Brooker and Annabel Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by True Detective on HBO. The third season of True Detective was hailed by critics as a triumphant return, exquisitely layered and mesmerizing. You know that I love that season, season three. I thought it was incredible. We did the flat circle about it. It was a fantastic show for your Emmy consideration in Outstanding Limited Series and all other categories. Visit HBO.com for more on True Detective.

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Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com. And today, a very special black mirror, all black mirror episode of the watch. So here's what happens. Charlie Brooker and Annabelle Jones, the mind's behind Black Mirror, were nice enough to drop by.

It was their second appearance on the watch. And we had a sort of general Black Mirror State of the Union conversation. So if you haven't seen Season 5, which is just dropped on Netflix on Wednesday, you can listen to that. And then we went episode by episode through the three episodes of Series 5. So what Kaya's going to do is you guys can look in the show notes.

You can see if you watch Striking Vipers. You'll see what time that starts, what time that conversation. I think we were pretty good about not spoiling anything from future episodes while we were talking about. At least we tried to be.

And then we went through each episode. So the three episodes from Black Mirror are all discussed in detail with Charlie and Annabelle, some really fun anecdotes, some really good insights into this series, the show as a whole. It's just so much fun to talk with people who are so smart about what kind of art they make. It's one of my favorite interviews we've done in a while.

So we will be back on Monday, probably some X-Men Dark Phoenix talk, although I will say that I appeared on the Big Picture, which should be dropping tomorrow on Friday. And Sean and I had a very, very fun talk about the X-Men and Dark Phoenix. So probably some talk about that. And of course, Big Little Lies on Monday. thank you for listening and we'll talk to you soon.

Here's Charlie and Annabelle from Black Mirror. Charlie Rooker and Annabelle Jones, thank you so much for joining me again on the watch. Thank you. The second appearance, it was almost a year to the day that you were here the last time when we talked about your favorite episodes of the show.

And The Ringer just put up our own ranking of the episodes, Sandra DeParo, winning. Is it a crowd favorite? We have a tendency now because we do a lot of rankings of stuff that's like a modified democracy so like people can vote

but then there's sort of a high council that starts to adjudicate. Are you the high council? Not necessarily. What you're describing there is a corrupt democracy. Yes, I don't know where we got that idea. Modified democracy is a sinister way of putting it. It's a superficial democracy.

So San Juan, San Juan, Entire History of You number two, be right back number three. That's my favorite. I think I talked to you guys about that before. Hang the DJ. four, Callister 5

and then we did... These are all very romantic or emotional, all relationships. That's the thing is that I have such a different relationship to this show. Metalhead would be

way higher on mine. I don't know if you call it Metalhead romantic so you'd have to... It's a relationship of sorts. A relationship gone wrong. Yeah. That is very interesting.

So, yes, a lot of the more emotional heavyweights in that top four. It's almost like people don't want to be horrifically depressed by the stuff they watch for entertainment.

Are we making the wrong show? Well, I don't know. But it's interesting in that Metalhead, for instance, is a very, very divisive episode because it's a very strong flavour and it's a very strong, it's quite a harsh biscuit. Yeah. I don't know.

A harsh biscuit? A harsh biscuit? Well, we have used, I'd say cookie, I suppose, over here. You don't say biscuit in the same way. I don't think you'd say harsh cookie. Yeah. If he was a harsh cookie, I think you'd have to be fletri-wired cookie. It's like, you know, it's a strong, it's a shot of poetry or something.

It's like, so it's a, that says a lot about you. Yeah. And what you like. So, yes, not for everyone. So, but we always, we always know that some of our episodes, some people are going to hate and other people are going to love. And that's usually better than everyone quite liking all of them. Yeah, I think that's the job of an anthology show, isn't it, to sort of present, different diverse films that people are going to love passionately

and as a result maybe not love other ones as passionately. I notice you used the word films there. Oh God, yes, sorry. Well, no, because... No, I have to stop saying it because I realize it sounds very pretentious to call them films. But it does suggest sort of like they're getting a little longer, they're feeling more cinematic in some ways. I mean, I think that they're always very distinctive visually.

Yes, and I think it's that because the reality, when we film them, that they are all separate films and they're totally autonomous. And so there's no one person, apart from Charlie and I, no one person is across any other film. Like a modified democracy. You guys are the High Council of Black Mirror. This is great. You get to finally meet. When do you know that you've got a series on your hands?

So when is the decision made that these three to five to six to two or a standalone is, that's the statement we're going to make now? It was a slightly different situation this time around actually because originally, so Bandersnatch, which came out in December, late December, was originally part of season five. Okay. So, for instance, Striking Vipers, which is the first episode of this three-episode season we just put out, that was the first, we'd shot that before Bander Snatch,

I think it was even written. I think I'm right in saying that, certainly the script was written. And so originally it was going to be, yes, it was going to be part of the season. And as the more we worked on Bander Snatch, the more we realized, well, hang on a minute, This is like doing a whole season in one go anyway because it's like five and a half hours of footage.

Yes, Bansnatch being the interactive. Oh, sorry, yes. Episode, I'm saying episode. Not a five and a half hour. Bandsnatch, the interactive episode. It wasn't heaven's geek. Yes, it wasn't low. It was like there was a total of five and a half hours of potential footage.

And also we weren't sure, we sort of thought, that's going to soak up, it's going to soak up so much attention and it's so much its own thing. We'll put that out as a separate entity and then follow it up with more stories. And we used to traditionally do, used to, back in the day, when we were on Channel 4 in the UK, we did seasons of three.

And we sort of felt like that was a good, they complimented each other. And rather than make people wait until we've done some more, we thought we'll put out band snatch, and then we'll put out this. So some people have been a bit sore sort of saying, oh, you've done three episodes, oh, you do six.

But actually, I would say to those people, I would take them gently by the hand, and I would say, look at the overall running type. Like we did bandes and bandes. If you add this to bandes, Natch, if you imagine that, then there's more.

Yeah. We're done more, actually. We've done more. And then... We've over-delivered. That's right. I wouldn't be that cocky to say that. I'd say, we've done more.

I wouldn't say we've over-delivered, you little peasant. Am I the little peasant? No, that's the... The black mirror superfan. He's just brushing them aside. No, I'm saying... I'm saying...

Headlines are you written. Brooker? Yeah. Slaps down. No! No, she's the one treat. You might as well call them Muggles. What? The way you're disdainful...

I'm saying to you, you and I, we have given more than a season this year. You said over-delivered. Yeah, we have, because we've said about seven, eight episodes in total. I admire our fans so much, it would be impossible to over-deliver to them. To those wonderful people. But when you... So what was the decision-making process then to assemble this season the way it was with striking Vipers coming back into this season then?

No, so maybe Charlie's misrepresented. Oh, wait, so maybe I'm misunderstood. So Bandersnatch was supposed to be in this season. Striking Vipers was filmed them. No. So we filmed them all together. Smithereens was also shot around the same time. The last three and Bander Snatch were all produced and filmed together.

I got you. And we carved out Bander Snatch and put it earlier. Okay. Let me ask you this then. So do you think about these things in terms of what's going to eventually wind up happening. Like when you're making series four, do you know already that there's a bunch of stuff in the pipeline? Without giving away what might happen in the future, how active is Black Mirror Industries where it affects what's happening with what you guys are doing? Sometimes there's

story ideas that are skulking around in the background for quite some time, and sometimes you're waiting for the right time to do it, because you wouldn't want to do, you don't want to present a selection of stories that are too similar. And I think that's one of the, most important things we feel with every season is that we want each story to be idiosyncratic and separate from the rest. So sometimes you sort of think, okay, I've got a really horrible idea, but we've got a really horrible story in this. So let's hold on to that until we... So sometimes thematically you sort of hold things back for a while. Yeah, we like to spread the horror.

And the joy. Oh, and the joy. And the joy. There's a lot ass in the season. This season is quite a few Again, actually I mean, you know, if you said one thing that we heard about,

we can't win because one thing some people said about Bander Snatch was, well, I just wanted to give him a happy ending. There were no happy endings there I didn't feel there was a single happy ending. Well,

that's because you gave them a choice. I would disagree. This is Black Mirror. What were they expecting? Well, then in this season there are some more hopeful endings and some people have said, well, I want a horrible ending.

Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. Well, you know, you can just click back a bit on the, click any episode you like then, mate. It's all right. Or switch on the news, if you want some horror.

We were pleased, actually, just to, you mentioned Bandsnatch there and Stefan. We were pleased that with that, when people presented that as a criticism, when some people said, I just wanted to give Stefan a happy ending, and I found that frustrating that I couldn't, we took that as a win. Because it meant you were absolutely invested in him as a character, which meant that hopefully it was functioning for you as a film. It was you were invested in the character and it wasn't just some gimmick. I just recently experienced this.

Did you guys watch, I assume you did, did you watch the second series of Fleabag? Yes. And you get so wrapped up in their story that even though you know what's going to happen, you almost feel like physically uncomfortable because of how much you like care about what happens these two people at the end. Yes, absolutely. So her breaking the fourth wall just lures you in even more. you feel like a confidant. You feel, it doesn't, you know, that worry that when you do break the fourth wall,

that you're going to break the concept and the conceit. And I think it was absolutely the opposite. You know, and I think that's what we were trying to do with Band Snatch, as you say. If the interactive element was ever going to force the viewer back and distance the viewer from the character, then why bother making the film? And so it was very, it was one of the key things. In fact, when Netflix first asked us whether we'd ever do an interactive episode, we said no because for that very reason

that you wouldn't have that emotional engagement and then when we realized that when we found the way of presenting the interactivity introducing it and then subverting it and exposing it to the viewer and exposing it to the protagonist so the protagonist was then able to, Stefan is able to remain a character,

a fully formed character because his actions are consistent and he knows that he's being controlled as soon as you introduce that element then you can have it all Sure, and it gets into the whole idea of whether choose your own adventure necessarily means choose your own ending. Yeah. Right. Because it's still the...

Yeah. We're more talking about things that happen along the way rather than what, like a happy ending or some sort of fulfillment for this. Yeah. It's interesting that some people, and some people, people came to that with different, people's reactions were very different. Sometimes depending on how they... Some people would say, I'm not very good at this. Like, I wish I've, oh, I haven't been able to win yet. which is interesting.

It was an interesting way to look at it. I mean, we did sort of slightly play into that because there was a character who was reviewing the game that he would produce. So that was fascinating. There's some people who try and play that like it's a game, and there were lots of people who just wanted the protagonist to have a happy ending and couldn't get that. I think there's going to be more interactive projects out there,

which will use it in a different way. We were using it in a very, you know, in a straight film and we were hoping to emphasize and enhance, rather, the emotional engagement and also the complicity with which you feel when you are forcing these decisions upon a character. But, you know, if the Kimmy Schmidt interactive will be very different and the interactivity will be used probably for much greater comic effect. Sure, sure. You'd hope, you'd think there'll be lots of, there's lots of sort of meta-gags you can do there.

My kids love the Bear Geroom. Have you tried the Bear Grills one? There's a Bear Grills one, you versus Wild. My kids, who are five and seven, loved that. And it's like, he's constantly like, oh, so do you want me to, well I, oh no, here I am. Will I eat this life, wriggling caterpillars, slip its brains out, or will I eat my own poo? Which am I going to do?

And, you know. There's really no good option there. No, and he does, he does it. Yeah. He eats a cat, he eats a big grub thing. It's rough. It is rough. The idea, like, I think that you're just worried that, I think that people go into that

thinking, how much danger can I actually put this guy in? Yeah. like physical danger. I was curious because, you know, obviously we just did this ranking, so I've been going back through the past seasons. And, you know, it's often been mentioned, like how unfortunately society is catching up with Black Mirror

and surpassing it in terms of some of its horrors. But I was also wondering whether or not, or how production on the show has changed over the years, both in terms of the writing process, but also the access you, guys obviously have to actors who are, I know Tofer Grace was like a huge fan of the show. You have people out there who know Black Mirror want to be a part of it. How does that change making the show, the awareness of the show out there? Hopefully it doesn't. I mean, well, because

I go back to my film thing, because they're all very separate and different, you approach all of them like they're their own individual thing and you are only ever trying to serve that script as well as you can and so that applies to the casting you are only looking for the person who is going to who one sort of reads the script and uh responds well to it and knows what it's trying to do and understands its tonal pitch because often with black mirror you could take some of these films and make it completely in a different different genre almost so finding an actor who really wants and understands the script and wants to play it in the same way as you do is is obviously key to some of them um we've just been you know we've just been so

lucky with our casting, whether it's Daniel Kaluer and Haley Atwell or Letitia Wright, but often it's about the timings being right in that sort of finding someone who is just, is always going to be a massive success because they're a brilliant actor.

We've just been lucky that we've been there. Exactly, you know, and but it's all about the actor's tastes as well because some of the shows are incredibly as Charlie saying idiosyncratic and not every actor will want to take that script. So it's about finding a like-minded actor who feels that that's a film that's worthy of being made.

You discuss them as films that, but, you know... Oh, yes, I'm sorry, I did that again. You keep saying the F word. Did I? Sorry. No, no, no, the film word. Oh, sorry, I'm an idiot. You could swear on this show. Oh, fuck.

You did exactly that last time. I swear. You were told you could swear, I'm sure, last time you were told you could swear. And you were scared by it. And you immediately said, fuck. What is wrong with you? Pottymouth. Pottie Mouth Jones.

My Mouth Jones here. you know, I was noticing too that even though you're saying, you know, like, oh, we try to catch these people on the ascendancy and that we've been really lucky doing that, you look at something like why Andrew Scott does in this season, Andrew Riceboro does in, I think, season four, I believe. There's so many examples. Haley Atwell, like you referenced, people doing things that are pretty unique these days.

I don't know necessarily that you would see Andrew Scott ever carry almost every single scene, every single shot of a 70-minute episode of television or short film, where he's got to be going at a high pitch for that long. And there's such unique opportunities for these actors. Yeah. And I think that's obviously, I think that's one of the things, hopefully, that appeals to them is that it's, it's a relatively short commitment taking part, because it's, because it's one film, episodes. thing. Flepest.

Flepest. Fepis. That's good. I don't know. Is it? Anyway, so it's a relatively short commitment because it's going to be quite,

it's, as you say, it's usually quite intense. Yeah. And hopefully, because we try, hopefully it's always surprising. So they'll find themselves doing, exactly as you say, things that might be on the fringes

of their comfort zone or are just so unusual and bananas, that an opportunity like that isn't going to come along very often. Yeah. And I think a good example would be Andy Mackey, Anthony Mackey in Striking Bypers, you know, taking a guy who's often cast for his masculinity,

his superheroism, or whether it's in Hurt Locker where he's the alpha male, you know, and just absolutely turning that on its head. And so when Anthony read the script and he immediately said, I want to do this. Really? Yeah. Because it appealed to the... sort of the side of him that's that I'm not going to get many

opportunities to be totally the opposite. Yeah. You know, and to take this and to say and to sort of just boldly. Because, you know, the striking vip is an odd film in that, you know, it's quite ambiguous what's actually going on in this unique sexual experience between this hetero couple, hetero friends, in this unique virtual reality sexual fantasy fulfillment world where they are having a unique, confusing experience

where sexual gender is totally fluid and they have no idea what exactly what roles they're playing. And so for Anthony, this was like, I absolutely want to do this. This absolutely turns everything on its head. So, you know, you have those unique little moments like that. Okay, we're going to get into some of the individual episodes of Series 5 of Black Mirror, Season 5.

It's on Netflix now. You can watch it now. So we'll go through each episode, episode by episode, and you can refer to the show notes to see where those conversations start and stop. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch

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and you can access DC Universe on your favorite devices. Join and get a year's worth of DC content at DCUniverse.com. Let's talk a little bit about the episodes in this season. Okay. So there's only three. Don't say only.

Wow, there's a whole three episodes. It's this bountiful delivery of a harvest of Black Mirror episodes. Over delivery. And let's talk about striking vipers first. Do you guys think that this is an optimistic episode or film? Ultimately, well, so the ending is, I would say, is bitter sweet, but it's quite pragmatically romantic in fact, the saddest aspect of it is probably what's happened to Carl.

Because Carl is lonely 364 days of the year, and he gets to sort of, he gets to go into the game with Danny one day a year. Well, it sounds like he practices a lot on the side. Yes, but then he says, but that's ultimately empty for him, he says. And he's like, Tundra, even Tundra, the polar bear. Yeah. It was just not enough. And, yeah, so it's throughout the episode, really,

and there's quite a few things going on, but the problem is that people aren't communicating with each other, actually. And by the end, they've managed to reach a compromise, by simply being honest and open. And literally Danny opens his mouth and tells Theo what has been going on. Yeah. And you see that that then presumably brings her to say, well, here's, okay, well, here's my fantasy. Here's what I, you know, and they reach a sort of compromise.

It's not a traditionally romantic ending to something, but it's like there's a lot of trust there and open communication. And it doesn't, we do end on a traditionally romantic image, but in sort of black mirror style, it is undercut by the. the unusualness of what's going on. I want to keep going with my line of question, but I did want to just digress. Did you guys shoot him telling Theo? Because you cut away from it, right? No.

Okay. So I was just curious whether or not there was a version of that where he's like, so here's the thing. No. It always said, in fact, you know what, we did cut one thing. We did cut one thing because it was, which was in the script, and it was in the cut, I think, the first time, which was it showed, it originally,

it showed him open his mouth, and then it cut to the exterior of the car and you saw the brakes slam on. And we took that out because it felt like it just felt a bit right. Well, it just felt like it was trying to be a comic beat at a point where you didn't want one. That episode is really interesting to me because,

and that was directed by Owen Harris, correct? Yeah, who also directed Sanju DeParo, among other episodes. Be right back as well, yeah. Of course, so two of my favorites, yeah. And then there's this really funny thing going on where I actually found a lot of the moments in striking Vipers quite funny, you know, but tonally, I think almost it's like, it's quite serious, you know, there's even like their

fight, their actual fight that they have is kind of got like the blade runner rain coming down. And, you know, it must be such a delicate balance when you're trying to figure out tone, visual tone, acting tone, and also, but we kind of also want to let the viewer know, it's okay to laugh at that. Yes. Yeah. But I think that you let the humor find its place. in the performance and you let the actors find that and let them, you know, it's sort of like

it's all played straight, you know, and because, you know, the themes in it are, you know, some quite weighty and serious themes. So it's all played straight and then let the characters find that level of humour and how much they want to play it. Sure. I think it's, well, it's interesting also, I mean, with something like that where there's a, there's a world in which you could do just a completely comic version of that story. The Adam Cedar version. Yeah, exactly.

That's just played for sort of laughs. I think I love my friend or whatever. Yeah, so it would be like, and that I don't think would be as powerful. However, if you don't acknowledge the fact every now and then, and we do this in other episodes, I mean, we do it a bit in B right back. There's a couple of moments of humor in that as well. It's a very sad episode overall. But occasionally you acknowledge the sort of absurdity of what's going on.

I think that is a little release valve. And it lets the audience know you're not just, you know, you're not just presenting this as like an absolutely harrowing sort of drama. You're aware that what's going on is confusing and there are elements of it that are amusing and awkward. Yeah, there's that moment in Be Right Back where they're at the cliff and she says, well, Ash, Ash would be crying and he would be so upset and he's like, oh, okay. Oh, no, please don't. Yeah. You know, and it's this really, like, funny moment in the most heartbreaking part of the episode. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, it's sort of, as in life, people use humour to sort of cope as a coping device, and that's absolutely reflected in the show. The line that, there's one line in Striking Vipers that I saw has become a bit of a meme, which is where I can swear, can't I. So he's sure it can. Where Carl says, I, out of context as well as sounds quite well. It says, I fucked a polar bear, and I still couldn't get you out of my mind. Yeah. Which is obviously...

How is this being used? How is this being deployed? So this is he says that a dinner party. Is it the dinner party? I remember the line. How are people using... How is he having sex with the project? No, how is this meme being...

Oh, the stream. Yeah. Oh, I see. It's more that people have been sort of putting images of polar bears around. I see. And I think screen capping that particular line. Okay. So it's just a very pro-polar bear kind of thing.

Yeah, just to kind of, whoa. There's a line. So it's, sorry, I thought you were asking me how to do it. No, I would do union with the polobell. I won't leave that to my imagination. That's the best place for it. Yeah. But yeah, and so obviously when you're writing a line like that, you know, well, this, I, and

at one point I said, oh, should we, should we cut that out? Should we cut that out? We left it in. I'm glad we did. Because it's there to, it makes you laugh. But it's also, it comes. in the middle of a delicacy. Yeah, and embraces the ludicrousness of the situation.

I will never play Street Fighter again the same way. I was wondering whether or not it had to be, was there something about the dynamic of a Street Fighter, mortal combat type fighting game that works for that sexual energy? Or is it? Because you couldn't really do it with like a Resident Evil, like a first person shooter. No.

Or like, I mean, we don't, San Junipero was sort of, in my head, I was thinking of Grand Theft Auto, and open worlds like that. Specifically, I was thinking of Grand Theft Auto Vice City, which were set in the 80s. But with this, I think it was because I liked the

thought that this was a, it's a world where it's not designed for freedom that they're going into. It's a world where you're supposed to be doing something else. Clearly the programmers have done too good a job but simulating reality and all sorts of things are going on. It's also the characters in those games tend to be hyper-sexualized.

They're like really ripped or they're really buxom or they're just... Not wearing the type of clothing you'd wear typically to do mixed martial arts fighting. They're wearing, revealing sort of like... Booby or chesty or abbey. Is that a flat like... Revealing clothing in beautiful surroundings. And alone. There's no one else there. Sure.

So there's only the two of them. And on top of that, one of that, one of the... One of the sort of starting points for the episode in a way was I was talking about how I used to play Tekken in the 1990s on the PlayStation. And that with my flatmate, and we suddenly became aware that we would play it until all hours of the morning. And it was the summer and the window was open. And I suddenly realized that for the last, however many hours, our neighbours had been hearing two guys in our flat going, oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, God, oh, oh, yes, yes.

And so they must have thought that there was an absolutely insatiable, like either there was some sort of sex dungeon going on, or an incredibly in love couple living there. And there wasn't? But we're into some sort of sadomasochistic, because there was often a lot of, like, because when you're playing those games, you go, you bastard, you bastard, you know, things like that a lot of the time as well.

And it's like, yes, yes! So it must have sounded nuts. And that's funny. You know, that's just funny. And so there's something about that, the sort of, and it is ultimately in those games, you are grappling. You are physically grappling with each other. So there was, all of those elements were what fed into it. And it just felt, it felt like it was unexpected.

If they'd gone into more of a sort of a second life or a GTA sort of like world, it might have come as less as of a surprise. Echo the dolphin could have been. Echo the dolphin. Well, that's something that Carl should try. If Tundra didn't work. These poor animals. What we're doing? Started with a pig.

I don't want to start looking at video games and trying to work out which ones. Like, I'm in this. Yeah. FIFA? FIFA. You could probably, well, in FIFA, they celebrate goals. They sure do.

They do a lot of sort of hugging and cuddling in that, don't they? It's coming home. so they could just keep that going. They used to be, can you still, I have not played a ice hockey game in many, many years. So they used to break into fights. Yeah, that was a big thing. Remember in Swingers? Did you ever see that movie?

Yeah. They do the fight. He's like watching them. Like NHL or whatever it was. Yeah, it was like 94 or whatever it was. Okay, so that's striking Vipers, such an interesting episode. The reason why I was asking about the optimism was because it does feel like a sister episode to Sandhudea Piero in some ways. Manjunapero.

Manju-Napiro. We jokingly sometimes called it that. I don't think in it. I mean, there are thematic similarities in terms of, well, not so much thematic, but in terms of the technology that's going on there. They both involve people going into a fantasy world. Yes, but Striking Vipers is more about, you know, a lot of it is about porn. It's about when porn becomes so sophisticated and personalized and immersive,

when does it become not a healthy distraction and it becomes a form of cheating? And so those questions are at the heart of it. Yeah, and that certainly is there. I was really more just thinking about it in terms of like if you find happiness, does it matter how you got there? Yes. Or does it matter what that happiness? I suppose the happiness in striking vipers is a sexual high.

It's more, you know, they obviously because they're friends and they have that camaraderie, there's a contentness at the heart of it, but it is about a sexual fantasy that they're living through. Yes. Well, for Danny, where's for car. Totally. I don't know. For Carl, it feels certainly more. There's more...

Well, he has an intimacy that he doesn't have in the real world. And it's more probably personally revelatory to him. Yes, absolutely. Whereas for Danny, it's more about his concerns about fidelity. Is he cheating on his wife? Yeah. And it's, you know, it's recognising that his youth has passed and he's not as virile and sexualised as he once was. So it's a wishful fulfillment in a different way.

Whereas San Juan Nipero, you know, is totally totally different. in that, not totally, different in that most of the film takes place within the VR world and these are two people able to find a romantic liaison free of all prejudices so I think it's dramatically they're different they're different I just

for a while there was workshopping a take that San Junipero is actually heartbreaking at the end you know it's just like because they're both dead yeah I mean obviously yeah I think it's I think there's a heartbreak to yeah but I mean it like there's almost there's something

bittersweet about, maybe it's the one to Carlhouse song, I don't know, but there's something about watching those hard drives get put away. Oh, that's definitely there as a, that is there as a, it's sort of weird one because it's sort of beautiful and even the

the winking lights on the hard drives are described in the script as beautiful. Yeah. That it's like a star field or something. Yeah. But there is a sort of cold practicality to the fact that they're literally, heaven is a place on earth and it's that place is a server farm. A cloud, yeah.

Basically, it's a cloud, yeah. And Gugu, you know, Gugu says, how can you make sense of forever? You know, the question is asked, but then she just and also that for her entering the world is sort of having to say goodbye to her daughter and her husband.

You know, there's a, there's a tragedy to it all. You can't just depress me now. Sorry, it's just, it's, let's talk about smithereens. Let's lighten the mood by talking about smithereens, yeah. So I'm definitely at the place right now where I would watch Andrew Scott read an IKEA manual.

Well, you're in luck because he's doing that. He's doing that on Broadway. I was going to say that's season six. This is IKEA. IKEA Furniture can be its own Black Mirror episode. I love this episode. I was curious, is this the only episode that's ever had a place and time card? Yeah.

Apart from San Juniper. Well, San Juan. Yeah, but San Juan, Cheats. It doesn't have a place and time card, but it says there's a right at the start the first thing you hear is a DJ going, that's the, heaven is the place now. The biggest hit of 1987 so far. Viewers, did that exposition go in? But we're cheating. I think it is the first time, and we cheat, actually, we definitely cheat at the end of San Juniperia, because when you see the gravestone, it doesn't say the years that anyone died. Oh, that's not cheating.

It is, because we didn't want to specify what year it really was. But it's not important to the story. It's cheating. Did the mason that you guys had hired to carve the tombstone to get off work too fast? We had a name later? I can't even remember what. There was something else that we, there was something, we tinkered with something on that. But I think so, and we deliberately, that was part. Now we've done other episodes that are set in the present day with that, like, shut up and dance was one that had no sci-fi element and was set just in the present day.

National Anthem. as well. The Waldo moment was not really sci-fi, particularly and there's a bit of, there was nothing that's impossible in there. This, we specifically I guess we specifically put a date and card time

thing up there for two reasons I think. One was we actually genuinely wondered whether social platforms would change the policy. There's a subplot in there that's to do with a woman trying to get into her daughter's account and she, they won't

it violates their privacy policy and we were actually wondering whether that would, that position would have changed by the time this went out. And then another thing that's probably even the bigger reason was probably also, it just says right at the start, this is today. So you're not thinking

you're not thinking I'm going to see he's going to, oh it's all, it's a VR simulation that's all happening in his head or anything like that. Yeah, I mean the reason I ask I guess is because there is a an industry out there of people trying to sort of assemble a chronology or a timeline among these episodes

and sort of projecting out as metalhead the end point or something or something. You know, trying to figure out what that is and where the Prime Minister and National Anthem because obviously he's... He's mentioned in Smith, The Reins. He's mentioned in Nosedive as well. Oh, right.

But there's a little Facebook update from him. Facebook style platform, I should probably say. Just saying, Blinkin, you'll miss it. It says in the background, got thrown out of the Zodagh. zoo today in a

happy face. But I would say that it's going to be very hard for anyone to actually construct a fully functioning timeline because although we do

explicitly say in quite a few of the episodes we nod to other things and when you watch the news tickers in episodes we're almost always

referring directly to other things because I decided it used to be asked is it all in one shared universe and I'd say no then I changed my mind and started saying yes

since Bander Snatch I realized why it's a multiverse Oh okay Because Colin Rittman who seems to be the king of this multiverse Who seems to note like And transcend time and space Knows that there are parallel realities

So I'm guessing it's there's a black mirror Multiverse which therefore gets us out Of any continuity problems Few So it's a four dimensional diagram It's okay So those people working on the timeline need a 3D printer.

They also did an advanced degree in astrophysics or whatever it takes. And a lot of time. Yeah. There's an element of smithereens that feels very like it could be in the Guardian Live blog on any given day. Is it the first time? I don't know if it's the first time, but did it feel more ripped from the headlines necessarily than other episodes than you guys have done? Necessarily.

Just because Tofer's character, obviously, I think, is like, it feels like a one-to-one to Jack Dorsey, sort of. Yeah, and there was actually, there was a line that was in there that we had to lose for sort of time where somebody referred to him, he's out in the desert, like doing this meditation retreat, because one reason is because he's depressed over all the political stuff that's been going on. So it's implied that there's some he's been taking flack for stuff on the platform. We were aware, we wasn't based on an individual.

Although, like, I can't remember if it was... In my head, it's before the script was written. Maybe it was after now. I'm not sure when it was that Jack Dorsey, the Twitter guy, went off on a... You went on a silent retreat? He tweeted that he had, and when he came back, he said, oh, I went on a silent retreat.

It was great, and everyone, lots of replies were going, what are you going to do about the dancers on the platform, Jack? It's all very well going off, and, oh, thanks. I'm glad you're mindful. Mind this! So, there was certainly an... And there was a great irony, it felt, in having this head of a big communications platform being literally locked away, uncommunicative, and also struggling with, like, the ethics of what he's created. Yes.

As out of control as Chris's. Yes. So we were aware, I think that stemmed from two things. One, we wanted to do a story that the subplot in that, which is where we meet Haley, the woman whose daughter committed suicide, and she just wants to get into her daughter's account. that had, we'd been obsessed at one point with turning that into a story idea and it felt like the problem with trying to turn that into a story idea

was it implied that when you open, on its own, I mean, when you open that inbox, when the character finally cracks the password or whatever and gets in there, you would expect some answer and I think that would be quite glib to suggest that there is an answer. There would either be a glib reason

that you were suggesting or it would turn into a mystery thriller. Oh, she didn't commit suicide. Yeah, yeah, some big melodrama. It would turn too melodramatic. So we were, we were like, I'm sure there's a story idea here. And also, then we were talking about occasions when, like one time I got in an Uber and it was just gawping up my phone, as I often am. And suddenly I was aware that the car had stopped and I looked up and I thought, I don't know where I am.

And the guy I'd got out and he was rummaging around in the trunk of the car. And I don't want the fuck's going. And then he came out, he had a bottle of water, and he went, oh, sorry, I was just thirsty. I didn't want to disturb you on your phone. And we were discussing moments like that. And similarly, we'd been having lots of conversations with people who were trying to limit who were concerned about how hooked they felt like

that they were just doing things like setting their phone screen to monochrome because that apparently makes your phone less seductive. There's all sorts of gimmicks that you can use. Yeah. Limiting the touch. Yeah. Kitchen safes, like people who put their phone in their safe. There's like you can basically start.

to get it to turn off its apps at a certain point, but you can also just say, like, give me 15 more minutes all the time, which just seems almost more cruel than just... You know what I mean? Like, you can have the screen time go down, but then you can just say, like, remind me in 15 minutes, and that makes you feel more like a mouse with cheese, kind of. Yes. But the irony of the drug trying to wean you off itself is a funny one. And, you know... What a cigarette saying? I think that's enough now. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we don't have enough self-control. We have a phone has. has to tell us when to stop using it.

Yes. It's just crazy. But I think there had just been little things like, you know, little ingredients appearing on the phone to keep you lured in, whether it's a number of emails now being a circle and telling you how many emails you've yet to look at. That's sort of, you know, teasing you.

All of these new elements that were appearing that were making people harder to sort of resist. And so it just felt all of those themes coming together. Yeah. It felt like everyone we spoke to, everyone we were speaking to if you'd go oh I've just tried this

I've just got this app called moment and it tells me how much time I'm spending on my phone and it's depressing they go oh I know I've got this and I tried doing this

and I switch it to airplane mode and I try and keep I can't stop so everyone going through breakups of the most important relationship in everyone's life was with their phone

and how to break up with it when you lose it or something you're like oh god it's like a limb's it's like a phantom limb syndrome where you're like oh Google to see where my phone

as well, oh, no, I can't. You know, it's like, you know, find my iPhone. It is like, like, you use that all the time. I have a, I had a really terrible moment this morning where I was coming into work, but I have this, I don't know if you've noticed these trees in L.A. They're called jaccarandas. Do you have those?

I don't know. If I saw one, I. It's basically the purple flowers. They rise in the end of May, and they fall a lot. And it's beautiful if it's happening somewhere outside of your, like, away from your home. Right. But they are basically, they turn into gum. almost as soon as they hit the ground

and they stain everything and they suck. The point is that I was sitting in my car outside of my house, supposed to go to work, Googling best way to clean up jaccaranda flowers instead of just sweeping them up. And I was just like, I really hope,

I honestly hope like my car explodes right now to save me from what I've become. Whereas instead of just like brushing these flowers up, I'm like Googling, I'm on message boards looking for best ways of cleaning them up. The best way. That's what you need to find. Not just the way to do it.

Exactly. The best way to do it. It's a weird way. We were aware in doing it. There was a slight risk. And we slightly steer into it at one point, which is that sometimes a criticism of the show is people say, oh, what if phones put too much?

It's somebody complaining. Well, it's people saying these kids today are on their phones too much. And in a way, like Andrew Scott's character, Chris, does deliver a rant that is sort of that. It's like almost a nice. unhinged version of that that he does at one point. But I think it's, you know, we're not saying that, and the episode doesn't say, oh, this is all wrong.

It sort of shows there, there's definitely an issue there, which is you've got, however many apps you've got on your phone, they're all fighting for your attention, they're all optimized to suck up as much of your attention as possible. And there is a strange, it must be, the growing trend for meditation and mindfulness and stuff like that must be related to this, that people are starting to feel like that. It's the addiction and the cure at the same time. The first thing I started using it, and it was, of course, the first thing I did was, like, Googled, like, meditation app. Best meditation app.

How can I meditate, like, quickly by pressing a button while doing something else? Can we just do a quick brief in praise of Andrew Scott moment? Oh, my God. Let's do it much longer. The amount of work we have to do in post to make him look less, because he's such an ugly man. He's so ugly. and... Don't objectify and...

I'm not. I mean, we would be sick. Yes, I know. How lucky were we? You guys caught him before. So a lot of people are saying, is this what becomes a hot priest? He gets his heartbroken

and then he becomes an Uber driver. I just thought he was remarkable in this. And it must have been... It's just one of those things where if you don't have the chops to pull it off, I don't know what that episode is. No, absolutely. You know, he's a great theater actor,

so he's used to working with a smaller space. And in this example, a car, you know, so so much of the film takes place with the two of them in a field in a car. Not the greatest pitch to an actor, but he... And it was genuinely, I think, during a heat wave in Britain as well, so it was like, really, it was uncharacteristically hot, you know, so it was like uncomfortable. So he was in shock as well as hot.

Because he was like, it's not... Oh my God, what's happening to the world. Sky is blue. Sky is blue. You have to change all the lighting. It's like, actually, his son. The DP was, what do we do with this? Bright ball of light.

But he is astounding. He's astounding in it. And like you say, he has to carry so many, like he's in close-up a lot of the time. It's very claustrophobic. He had to again and again and again get to a place of absolute desperation. I mean, it's just, that's one of the things that, I think that's one of those things that I did not appreciate until you start hanging out on set all day long. And being on set can be incredibly boring unless you realize it's a hive of activity,

but if you're sort of just sitting there waiting to see the next take, It can be quite boring a lot of the time. But then you're watching, when I used to hear actors sort of saying, oh, you know, I had to go to a really dark place for this role. I used to think, oh, yeah, okay, you're basically playing let's pretend. Let's be honest. Oh, boo-hoo. So you cried a bit like, oh.

And then you forget, when you watch it, when you're there and you watch it in person, and they're having to do that and channel that in front of loads of people. again, I did not appreciate, genuinely didn't appreciate, how many times they have to do it again and again and again from different angles and they've got to match and they've got to, and it's all, right, but it's sound,

I just genuinely didn't know until you see it and then you realise, oh yeah, actually that is really bloody hard, isn't it? And it's not just that, but it takes a, it has to take a huge toll on you. So to do that for that lot, I'm basically saying they are the biggest heroes in the world. Yes. Let's do a bigger award show, celebrate their work.

Should we do that? I'm saying this. Society clearly does not celebrate them enough. If only there was a city in the world that did celebrate them. People don't look up to them. They're unsunged heroes. Oh, absolutely. Just only want to be in the background.

I want to get to Ashley too, but I do want to say that one of my favorite things is whenever I fire up a Black Mirror episode is to see what the mini genre thing inside the episode is going to be. That you guys got to do basically an episode of, bodyguard inside of this, but bodyguard, if it was with conference calls, was really, really funny, as was Tofer Grace. Where did you find that house? Which house? The Tofer Greece. Oh, the Spanish.

It was actually in Spain. It says it's in Utah. Utah. No, it's in Spain. Yes, I know what is the great find. Yeah. Nice job. Apparently it was on an episode of George Clark's amazing spaces.

Why are you telling people that? Yes, massive ravine. It was, yeah, beautiful. That was gorgeous. Okay, so let's talk about Rachel, Jack and Ashley. Jack and Rachel and Ashley, too? Rachel Jack and Ashley, too.

Okay, the Miley Cyrus episode. Was this written with her in mind, or was it pop star, and then you kind of take it from there? Yeah, it was very much that we did not think, because it would be arrogant for us to think, oh, we'll get Miley Cyrus to play this one. So we, it was, so the script was written.

We could have just gotten Andrew Scott to play the role. Well, he's so, he's bloody, actually I would watch that. You know, that's the thing. Because we thought, who can we get to play this part?

Andrew Scum. Andrew Scott. But we just filmed smithering. We can't do that. So it was genuinely, we had a conversation. It was like, well, in an ideal world,

you'd get someone like Miley Cyrus. Right. But we're not going to get her. So who can play? Because it's not, it's always annoying. If you're watching a film or a TV show, whatever it is,

about a fictional, performer, be they a comedian or a musician or a performer of any kind, and you don't believe, you don't quite believe that the stuff they're doing would be as popular as you're saying it is in the story, which meant two things. One, it meant that we, early on, we asked permission from Trent Resner to convert 9-inch Nails tracks into pop songs, knowing that they were catchy songs first and foremost. they would work. And they had to be...

Because we're not saying that her music is shit. No. Like, we're not saying that the Ashley O character's music is shit. It's bloody catchy. Like, everyone was humming those songs. It's just that it's the character we show. It's not quite what she wants to do. She wants to do something different for a while.

Back to Miley. So we thought, well, who could we possibly get... Well, it would be great if we got someone like Miley Cyrus. We won't get her, but therefore we got nothing to lose by at least... Asking. Asking. Yeah. But we'll just get ignored, probably.

but we didn't get ignored. It turned out she'd heard of the show and liked it. And then so we sent her the script and she liked that too. And then quite quickly we were on a Skype call with her and it became apparent that she is, you know, she's just very funny, very smart,

very, has a good sense of, you know, takes her job obviously very seriously but also has a good sense of, a healthy sense of the absurdity of that world. Had some things that she, there were certain things in the script that she really responded to and she had quite a lot of feedback.

Yeah, so she had any input? Oh, lots of input, yeah. I mean, you know, given that she started as the Disney pop star and then, you know, tried to carve out her own identity and her own music and that whole journey that she's been on

to find her own identity, you know, quite a difficult one when all of the pressures and commercial pressures of an industry saying, this is what you do, this is the way to, you know, to maintain your mass pop stardom. So she's fought a very difficult, you know, had a difficult journey to get to where she is now.

So she had lots of experiences and comments and gave us lots of little ideas and texture that we put into the script. And then even on set, you know, in terms of coming up with the look of Ashley O' and how she would position herself and her attitude of whether it's on a talk show or how she'd deal with fans. It's sort of, you know, all of it was all rich territory. Music is such an important part of this series in general. I mean, just in terms of the way, I mean, especially the way it, you know, right, it weaves its way through Bander Snatch and Sandrine Naparo, obviously, this episode. Do you find yourselves still inspired by records from your life over the course of your life that kind of pop up? Either they pop up in the show itself or you actually draw like, oh, that one lyric, it's kind of like this. Because these songs pop up again and again, too.

Yeah, that is absolutely what happens. I mean, as in so, and I can give specific. examples. So in San Junipero, I was literally, I was in the, I think I was in the middle of writing the script when I went for a run, listening to Spotify, and I'd made a sort of playlist of tracks from 1987. And then it started playing, or the algorithm started playing, heaven is a place on earth. And I suddenly thought, oh my God, that's like the, it's, it's, this sounds to use a Britishism, wanky, which just means pretentious or, like, ridiculous. We've used that phrase over here, too.

Okay. Yeah. I sort of saw the ending. That's awesome. I sort of saw the ending and thought, oh, right, that was what gave me the image of the server farm. For instance. Oh, heaven is a place on earth, but it's that. Okay.

And so I was running. I literally ran home. So I was sort of typing that. And I was like, oh, my God. And then I was terrified we wouldn't be able to get the right. I'm glad you didn't start playing Tekken when you got home. That's what happened later, clearly. And then with Rachel Jack and Ashley, too,

I was like thinking, well, we need pop songs that say, and also what did, and head like a hole came on. And I thought, hang on a minute, this is both, like, it's a nihilistic sort of cry of like anger and rage and self-loathing and despair and, like, all so, you know, it's all of that, it's this industrial, you know, but it's also bloody catchy. Yeah.

And there's something oddly, you know, it's defiant and somehow triumphant. So I sort of thought I could see you could turn this into a pop song. Sure. And you could also have this at the end played in a triumphant grungy way as a sort of statement of triumph and freedom. So again, so sometimes those things definitely happen. I had exactly this, exactly this experience the other, literally yesterday. I went for a run here and something came up. And I sort of saw an entire episode.

Wow. So I got quite, and it doesn't happen that often. I wish it did because I'd just be, the problem is you have to be running, which is, I'd notice that if I don't go running for a while, not only do I expand in size, but. We have to keep you running. I keep getting these sort of, you keep getting these little transcendent. We're going to get a treadmill for the office.

No, I'm not on a treadmill. Never works on a treadmill because you can't, you can't escape the fact that you're running on a treadmill when you're on a treadmill. Do you, like, running through city or do you like going into some, some paths? I don't really like running. That's the problem. It's just that I sort of feel a desperate need. I'm just slowly expanding in size. So I need to, no, I honestly.

Hush, hush. Look at you. You look wonderful. I am nine kilograms heavier than I was this time last year. What's nine kilograms? It's probably over a stone. Oh, my God. We can use an actual measurement?

Get your trainers on. Yeah, a billion pounds. Now it's like 80, 80 something. Well, I need to go running more often because of, apart from anything else, every so often, you can sometimes solve a script problem. Because oddly, you're not thinking. Yes. You, and you're sort of dreaming a bit.

You can't do anything else. And if you're listening to music as well, sometimes it just, either it just evokes a mood or literally a lyric or something like that. And you go, oh, ah, right. And so you, something kicks in. Is there ever been a time where you guys wanted to use a song in an episode or either it didn't fit creatively or you actually couldn't get Jimmy Page to say yes. Yeah, there was a time we wanted to use the Smith,

hang the DJ. Yeah. And which I think is a great, you know, the panic. I think it's a great song. And then Morrissey came out in support of all sorts of far right groups in the UK. He's on a roll. And I thought, oh, fuck. But it was too late.

Do you decide? Well, I don't know. It's a tricky one, isn't it? It is. I mean, it's not. It stops me listening to one of his early music. Well, it stops me listening to his early music. music. It does. It comes up now. It comes up now on the playlist. And it makes me feel,

because it just makes me feel a bit bad. Yeah. And I don't, the songs are still catchy. But the songs are still enjoyable. But I might their meaning for me has, it just makes me immediately as a, oh. But it shouldn't because it should be if it's evoking a time when you listen to that music. But the time I'm listening to the music now is now. I know, but I think if it helps you elicits the feelings you had at that time when you first you heard that music, that's allowed to remain. I like that rule. It's slightly, it's heartbreaking really because of what his music used to sort of,

who it used to speak for and what it used to mean. I've taken up too much of your time. Thank you guys so much for coming by. Series 5 is available on Netflix. Now, I hope to see you here a year to the day. You know, next year we'll be going into the elections and we can talk about series 6. That's going to be an interesting time. Yeah, but it should be really chill.

You keep jogging. You keep listening to spot. Just running away from whatever's coming. Thank you guys so much for coming by. Thank you so much. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by True Detective on HBO. The third season of True Detective was hailed by critics as a triumphant return, exquisitely layered and mesmerizing for your Emmy consideration in Outstanding Limited

Series and all other categories. Visit HBO.com slash FYC for more on True Detective.