The Watch - Breaking Down ‘Game of Thrones,’ S8E2 | The Watch

Episode Date: April 22, 2019

Chris and Andy break down the second episode of ‘Game of Thrones’ Season 8, “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” (1:00). They make predictions for who is most likely to die (17:36) and talk about the theme of "afterwards" throughout the episode (32:17). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Bud Light. Bud Light is all about bringing friends together, and we're wondering which unlikely pairs will team up this season on Game of Thrones, seeing so many old friends and new come together in the last episode, the second episode of the eighth season. For example, the past episode we saw, I mean, there was basically like a happy hour where everybody was hanging out, but my favorite sort of reunion was the Brienne and Jamie stuff with the nighting.

It was just so emotional. They would definitely be having Bud Lights together. Enjoy responsibly, 21 and up. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at the reuter.com.

And joining me in the studio courtesy of Giants Milk. It's Andy Greenwald. I just got a coffee here at beautiful Sons of Goward Studios. Did you say add Giants Milk? Well, they only have, this is a pet peeve of mine, they only have half and half and almond milk on display. I want that pure flowing giant milk. Do you drink oat milk?

No. Oh, because I had that. And I have to say, that tastes like barn. Like barn? Like straight barn. You know what? You know how when you walk into a barn and you were like, I get what's going on here? You know what I'm saying?

If these walls could talk? Uh-huh. I don't know when's the last time I walked into a bar. That's what everyone's asking. Guy walks into a barn is my sitcom. Chris Oatsbane. Guys, we're really excited for a couple reasons. Reason number one is Game of Thrones.

Reason number two, Chris today is wearing such a great ensemble. He's wearing a shirt that I couldn't pull off, but apparently I've already discussed that on the pod due to its bright colors. But he's also wearing like a Frenchman's working jacket. It's not a yellow vest, though. It's not a yellow vest. It's not a yellow vest. It just looks like he's going to leave here, walk into his barn, set up his easel, and just ponder.

You look great. weird thing about what I'm doing today is that a shacket? Yeah, but it's thinner, it's lighter than the shirt I'm wearing. But that's not how it's supposed to work and I stood in front of the mirror for a minute this morning. Drinking my oat milk.

Letting it foam down your beard like torment. Then I had to change because I got oat milk all over my top. No, I just understand the mechanics of whether or not it's okay to have a lighter shacket over a heavier shirt. It's 60 degrees. You can go any direction.

It's going to be 80 in a few minutes, so I'll just have to take all it off anyway. We're just stalling because here's the real thing, Chris. I'm so happy. Game of Thrones is good. I was a little worried last week, guys. You were, I thought you got unfairly dunked on, roasted. Maligned? Marinated in a rue of oat milk by people.

I thought that you were fair. Fair but balanced. This word sounds so good together. But after watching the second episode, the first episode, you're kind of like, oh, okay, like this is what it's really got going for it. This is what this show can be. Last night was a tremendous Hall of Fame episode of Game of Thrones. I loved it. I loved all of it. And look, I think it's really interesting to compare to the first week because both weeks were essentially throat clearing. You know, if you think of television as I don't as a zero-sum plot game, right? It was rearranging chess pieces, throw-clearing, setting up for what probably will be arguably or inarguably the most insane hour plus of television of this era of television, if not ever. And that said, though, it was so much better across the board. And maybe this is one of those things where, you know, we are, I can't tell if we're out

of the habit or if we're getting spoiled in terms of reviewing TV week to week the way we used to, I don't know if you can get an episode like The Night of the Seven Kingdoms without Winterfell. Winterfell, yeah. So I would actually, let me throw this at you. Okay. What if they're supposed to be the same episode? Well, they were block shot. They had the same director. Yeah. And Cogman wrote two, Dave Hill wrote one. But given what we had heard earlier on about the different ways that they were conceiving of this last season and the possibility of it being three movies or something like that.

Right. I think if you look at Winterfell and Seven Kingdoms together, they form. a pretty complimentary piece. I think that's right. And then I think the Battle of Winterfell will be its own thing. And then I think basically, I bet it's another two one come down.

Another two episodes that feel like they go together, even though they're supposed to be pretty long. And then the one will be a quota. But I felt like there was a lot. It was like this was about reunions, the first week. And then the second week was about closure and resolution on certain things.

Emotionally, if not obviously physically, because I think we're going to get into that. I think you're definitely right. And I think that it's funny, eight seasons in, I am still sometimes fighting at the nature of this show, right? Like, I marvel at its structure, at the organization, at the, honestly, at the economy with which they do things. But sometimes I also chafe against it because it feels either unsatisfactory or unsatisfactory in the moment. And so last week, to your point, you're right. Last week, they had to get through a lot of initial reunions before they could deepen the relationship.

relationships before they could either resolve them or give us some sort of payoff with them. So we had to have Aria and Gendry make eyes at each other last week before they got to forge Valerian Steel in a very special way. Dragon Glass. I could have workshops. The sex-forged joke a little bit more. Too bad, Mal's not here. I think it's actually good, considering some of the texts she sent us last night. So you're right. I think it's better to think of them that way. the other aspect of last week that I think I was having some trouble with and I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on this

was last week because it was the season premiere because it was resetting the stage spent a lot of time on what I think are essentially our main characters and I think our main characters aren't as interesting as our supporting characters I don't think that is a radical statement I think the thing that has been brilliant about the show

and has made it so great over eight seasons is the just wildly, unprecedentedly deep bench. We all have our favorites, and then sometimes, like, when there was that dirty dozen mission last year, I'm like, oh, those are all my favorites. Right, Barrack and Thoros and The Hound.

And the Hound and all these great characters just all interacting and surprising ways and being funny and being supporting, being the supporting scaffolding that a show like this needs. I think that John Snow brooding, while compelling, and Kit Harrington is really,

I mean, he's really given a performance here. I mean that sincerely. I think it's pretty amazing the arc that he's had and the weight that he has to bring to every scene. He doesn't get to have fun like the other people do. I find him and DeNaris less interesting at this moment. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, since Tower of Joy,

you know, obviously that was a huge turning point for his character, and we knew, as an audience, knew more than the character himself did. Right. And that went on for a while. But even last night, if you would have told me that there would have been

a bunch of scenes of people drinking wine and screwing in forges. You prefer Barnes. And then the episode would end with John revealing his true identity to the woman he loves and thus changing the sort of stakes of the game.

What up I'm your nephew! And that wouldn't be the emotional high point of the episode, that the emotional high point of the episode would be this Jamie and Brienne thing that had been kind of brewing over three or four seasons. of their interactions.

Longer. That may have been the third season. I don't remember. Yeah. And that that would be the emotional high point. Just like this person getting knighted. And that for this show that's so cynical, or not cynical,

but to show that is so subversive about mythology to indulge in... It was season three, by the way. Yeah. But to indulge in what is basically a... The most classic swords and shields kind of thing you can do. You know what?

mean to bestow honor onto somebody else and a title and to like to like talk about the qualities that make a hero? And she is the most heroic person on the show in a lot of ways, like the most purely heroic person. She is the most uncorrupted character on this show. The true gift and pleasure of the show has always been its cumulative nature. And it allows Game of Thrones to play with a well of emotions and emotional investment that other shows could only dream of.

And so to have a scene where characters that we have, we have known for eight seasons, some slightly less, I guess, unlikely characters to be together, unlikely friends, unlikely companions, all of whom are scarred in multiple ways, whether they physically lost a hand or they were nursed by a giant widow.

Or they lost something else. Or they've all lost some stuff along the way. But no, but particularly I'm talking about the characters in that Brian scene, none of whom I believe had been castrated on camera, and honor bestowed only on Theon, I believe, of the main cast. To have them just be around together and feel the weight of the moment, but the audience also feels the significance of the moment, because we know this is our last time with some of these people as well.

It's really wonderful, it's really rare, and I think that Beniof and Dan Weiss and Brian Cogman, who's been there, with them almost from the beginning, really lived up to the moment. Yeah, I think that one of the themes of the episodes we talked about this last night and talked to the Thrones, but the word got uttered a couple of times throughout was afterwards. You know, Danny and Sonsa having this conversation

that kind of gets derailed when Sazza's like, what happens after all this? And this concept of, well, let's say we live. Let's say we make it. But the episode itself was fueled by a kind of last night on earth, urgency. And I couldn't help but think about some of the meta-commentary of like these characters are also, and these actors who have spent so much time together are also kind of, you know, separating from one another professionally.

And there was a lot of really touching moments in between people like that. Even when they were only, you know, Sonsa and Danny have not had that many, I don't think any one-on-one conversations like they did last night. By the way, ever since Sonsa took over as the lady of the rhythm nation. She has not looked as fine as she did last night. The large, like, the large chain.

Yeah. It's Circe's outfit. Chain hang low. Like, that was incredible. Yeah, but also, it's funny. It's really funny what the difference a week makes. And now you've got in my head with this idea of thinking of them together.

But, you know, on the podcast last week, I was talking about how I felt almost rushed with some of these encounters. some of these reunions, that they felt just, they felt economical, a word that I've used now twice, but once in a positive context and one in a negative context. Then you get to this week's episode where the Hound Aria scene is certainly shorter, I think, than the one the previous week, but it was terrific. It struck the right balance of sentimentality and reality is a funny word to use in this context, but knowledge of the characters, appropriate knowledge of the

characters. And also created an interesting dynamic between old and young, which has been a steady drumbeat through the series. And I'm not really sure how we're netting out on that. You know, the older people whose fight is nearly done, the younger people who are willing to challenge tradition. And then now, in this episode in particular, we find the people, the characters who more than any other, John and DeNaris, who have represented the, the young viewpoint, suddenly the past is yoked around their necks like an anchor. Right.

To screw up everything. So, I mean, like, we can talk, let's talk a little specifics about the episode itself. Obviously, the easy way out on that one is a marriage power sharing agreement. Right. If people will accept an aunt and a nephew being together. The alternative is a brother and sister being together, I suppose. What if, I mean, that was a, we've really come a long way in eight years, both as a show and as a country. Right.

Right. Now there's just some, like, tender thoughts about the time that Jamie just fucked his sister on the rig. So, he's just like, well, I loved her. I want to talk more about, we can even save Jamie for the second half. The heart wants what it wants. The Jamie Reclamation Project is one of the great, like, achievements of this show, aside from, you know, 1-1. At, at, uh, we, we attended a Seder together the other, the other night, and you were, by the way, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

You were letting my wife know that she's become a more frequent mention. Well, it's not like she's listening. Well, that's why I felt comfortable. That's why I mentioned my life all the time. She doesn't listen. No, there's no question about that. But now you told her. But anyway, she wanted you to know that she did not watch the show last night.

She made it. She's like, I just can't do this. And I said, okay. And I paused it. And I said, really, you can't sit through the next 48 minutes and 59 seconds? You're tapping out? Because she was, it's too emotional or because she finds it? So boring.

Okay. So boring. But she didn't put in the work. She didn't put in the time. Of course, yeah. I did call her attention, though, at one point. I did pause it to say, look how good his hair looks. Jamie?

Look what they've done with his hair. Jamie looks like he is standing stage left at an oasis gig in 96. No. Jamie looks like he is standing in front of the fucking camera wearing a jumper zipped up to his neck in the Ginoid I Mean video with a fucking helicopter named... No, a dragon landing behind him. He's feeling supersonic.

Give him gin and tonic. I, yeah. I mean, we both relate to that look in an aspirational way that has not dimmed. Yeah, sure. Has not dimmed. No, he was great. I was kind of like trying to remember when I started being like super team Jamie, which I think was pretty much eight minutes after.

The minute he threw a child out the window. You're like, that's my guy. And then he has a couple of moments of, you know, he basically relapses into bad behavior a few times. My personal favorite is when he goes up to Edmure, when he's got Edmert Tully chained to a pole and he's just like, I'm a catapult your baby? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that was, you know, things are said in the heat of combat. It was like, I felt like that was like Russ Westbrook rocking the baby on Dame Lillard. It's like, I don't know that he was necessarily going to do anything about it. He was just using it. Right. So you don't think if push came to catapult, he wouldn't actually preload the baby. That's a lot of logistics just to catapult a baby.

You could catapult any baby and be like, that was your son. I'm gonna... Wow, that's where you went. I was gonna walk it back and say, catapulting a baby seems pretty straightforward. Yeah. It's not heavy. I get it, but like the amount of work he would have to do

to get that specific baby. Oh. Oh, I see. So you're saying he could just borrow a baby or even, dare I say, like a sack of old clothes and be like, damn, your baby! And then if he figures it out, he can be like, well, imagine next time

when it really is your baby. And then the next time it's what? It's what? Like a small forest hair that they've captured? But his sort of redemption arc is pretty amazing. I do find it fascinating that I think that the only thing where it's not plot armor, it's not the definition of plot armor,

but his presence in Winterfell, it's really about Breien and he says as much me. He says, like, I came here basically to serve under you. But throughout the entire series, he's always just maintained, he doesn't really give a shit about anything but Sersey. And I guess her flaunting the year, on stuff in his face and just kind of double-crossing him at her leisure has driven him to this.

But, you know, that was his whole speech to Edmira, is that, like, I will do anything to get back to her. Right. Yeah. I'm glad they gave, first of all, I'm glad they gave him time to sort of clear the lane at the beginning of the episode and just sort of reset where he's at with things. I thought that was really appropriate. I did wonder, one of the most, you know, this was a very emotional episode as a talky episode. There wasn't that much, you know, oh, my God, what's going to be? happen next.

Tension. The one moment I felt that tension was when Tormond got Jamie's nickname wrong. King killer. I was like, is he going to correct him? There was a whole thing on Twitter the other week with people misquoting the wire. Yeah.

It kind of reminded me of that. James Woods misquoted Omar in a tweet. What did he say? He was like, if you shoot at the king, do not miss him. Yeah. And so what do you do when someone, like if you have, if you cultivate a nickname for a decade? Yeah.

And someone gets it wrong. Do you have to fight the impulse to correct him, or do you think, like, that's what your guy steps in? Like, that's when your hype man comes in. Also, the thing is, is that there's probably is a guy in Game of Thrones named King Killer. And James is like, no, that guy, you know, he wouldn't go as far as to catapult a baby. Yeah. That's what separates me from that.

Yeah, that's a slayer and a killer. You know, one of the things that I often turn to you for is the examination of tropes in writing. And last night was one of the all-time McBain episodes. I was going to go there. So for people who don't know the reference, because I'm not using it in a column every week anymore, one of my favorite Simpsons moments was when there was the show within the show, movie within the movie of McBain, sort of the Schwarzenegger movie. And there's the footage of the classic McPain movie is when his African-American partner meets him at a bar

and shows him a picture of the boat that he recently purchased ahead of his retirement. And the boat is called Live Forever. Needless to say, my man cartoon Danny Glover does not. Indeed, live forever. Uh-huh. He is shot 600 times. So there was some major McBaining last night, and I think that I ranked them. Oh, you did?

I was hoping you would. I have a, I have a, I have a McBain rankings coming off of season 8, episode two of Game of Thrones in terms of who showed everyone their boat. Number three. Yeah. And we just mentioned him, and it pains me to say it, number three is, is, is torment Oat's Milk

because... Because he really got to be like I suckled at the teat of a giant... He also... I love him, but he's also the kind of character that has thrived with low minutes. Like he has a great...

What's the P.E.R. Like, player efficiency rating? You know what I mean? Or is plus minus. His plus minus is absurdly high. Okay. But he's rarely on the court that long. So I think he's...

No one's noticed that he's survived inexplicably long just playing his role. as a ginger manzukas. Okay. All of a sudden, last night, the camera, like, settles on him for a minute. He's like, let me tell you the story of me and my life.

I'm like, oh, boy. So, I have a counter for that. Okay. I actually think he's going to make it. Really? Because his... This is number three. We're going up to number one, so I'm willing to accept some pushback.

I think he's going to make it through all this. A, there's something about his wildling, you know, background that I think makes him suited for what's happening, what's going on. be his death wouldn't really do anything you know what i mean like it would be kind of like somebody's got to live here and it can't just be john no i totally agree with you but i think the show like that was comic relief there were so many other oh we're getting there way more intense big bain moments we're getting there okay but remember when at the show's height of i mean the silliest thing the show ever did was the whole dirty dozen mission.

I just references enjoying the characters, but the frozen, let's go get a dead body so Circe can betray us. Right. Nonsense. Yeah, by the way,

that entire thing, like three episodes of Game of Thrones have just been written off. Yeah, they're like, nah. She was never going to do it. And they're like,

huh, wow, what other than literally everything would have led us to that conclusion? I actually thought DeNus was not pissed enough about that.

Yeah, that was stupid. I mean, at least, I actually, I appreciate it that they ran right at the fact that she's like, everything that I've ever done in my life

was to get that throne and then I fell in love with your short brother, and now here I am, dying in Belfast. But I mentioned that episode from last season because after all of that, after Gendry just run in that quick double marathon, Thoros of Muir is the only one who dies. Right. And that was not a important death, no offense to a character that I loved. So I feel like... Well, you can't bring people back to life.

Well, I get what... Why? But at the same time, there's going to have to be some bodies. and, you know, I don't think Davos is dying, for example. Well, that's brave of you. Yeah. Oh, do you think? I think it's on the table.

All right. I don't think he's dying next week. Okay. Let's go number two, McBain. I also want to say, like, low, low, not even ranked is someone like Barrick. Oh, he's dead. Yeah. Of course.

I mean, even he's just like, I'm done making speeches. He's also a candidate for some mystical shit to happen to him, I guess. Well, that's a side conversation that I have. actually wanted to bring up with you, which is, are we done with the red lady and the Lord Lights up? I want to talk about what could happen and I want to talk about Arria. All right. So let's put that to the second half. Okay. Number two with a crossbow bolt, Sir Brienne of Tarth. Oh. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Wait, do you mean crossbow bolt? Because you think she's going to jump in front of... No, I just was going to say with a bullet, but they don't have bullets because it's a medieval.

Because Braun is like, I guess I got to go... Yeah. No, that's coming later. Okay. No. I, I, I, I, I, I think Breanne is a tremendous character, a tremendous arc and a tremendous journey. I don't know what's left for her to do. She's leading a flank against an army of undead zombies. And they're playing prevent defense. There's no plan other than like, let's hold them off long enough to bait the Night King into this garden. Yeah. Side note.

You know what's really dumb on television shows? Plans. Plans. And I say this as someone who recently in a writer's room tried to have our character. come up with a plan for two weeks. Plans are fucking hard. There's a reason we don't sit around and make complicated plans. But that was the thing is like the 11 of them are sitting in front of a map.

Some of the great military minds, like they've won all these battles, lost some. But they're all standing around and they're like, let's have the guy who got his pee-p chopped off, guard the dude who doesn't have emotions in a wheelchair next to a big red tree. Yeah, that's the plan. And everyone else is just target practice. I have nothing but empathy here. because I don't know what allowed me to think that me, someone who cannot reliably keep a dinner plan

with one to three people could pull off a heist scene in a television show. It's ridiculous. We don't make plans. So I don't blame them, but not the best plan. So I do think that... It also just seems like something that should have gotten decided before the night before the battle. That's true.

Like they get there, they're like, the army of the dead is coming. Yeah, but Davos was showing them. his onion soup. You know what I mean? That was cool, by the way, for demand. Finally, it's like they've got the chess board laid out, and they're just like, let's send Theon into this little greenhouse.

Like, we know there was one thing we left for the last minute. There always is. Oh, the plan. Oh, the plan to defeat the undead army. No, I just think that it's the opposite of what you were saying about Tormann, which is next week has to have real stakes. We also know that there are three episodes left. Not every character is making it,

and some significant characters. are going to die. And I'm not looking at this with emotion. I cannot, not letting emotion cloud my vision. Leanna Mormont could go in a catapult as far as I care. That's how cold I am right now. Okay. Okay. What I'm saying is her storyline is done. Liana or Brienne? Brienne. Yeah, right. I think her storyline is done. Okay. So I'm not saying there's not going to be something epic and emotional and gutting, but I do think that she's number two on me on my McBain list. Okay. I have, I have a reason why I think she could live. Okay. But, keep going. I think number one

is this is like this is like you got to draft Anthony Davis first. There's no question. This is the Zion Williamson of the McBain draft.

Number one on my McBain chart is a character who's been around for a while who has had a slight injection of personality

in the last one to six episodes across two seasons and who literally promised his girlfriend that he would take her sailing on a boat

called live fucking forever. And this is, you don't want to talk about the Walking Dead, shouts to my man, gray worm. Yeah. The deadest dude who has ever not yet been dead. Yes. First of all, I think his military value is literally like,

we're going to just offer our bodies up to the zombies. Like that's our job. Second of all, he didn't just say like, man, I love you. Like, if we make it through this, I'm just really going to appreciate you every day. he's like, here's our plan. First of all, never make plans. Here's our plan.

After we defeat the Army of the Dead and Circey Lannister and the Golden Company, you and me, a little crab shack and essos. That's right. A little VRBO. We, you know, only a few customers, you know, because it's bespoke. He was pitching Miss and Day on the opening, of the second born film. Yeah.

He's basically saying, You and me in Bali. We're going to have billowing shirts. I'm going to drive to town to the market once or twice. Because just to get what's fresh. And no one's going to come looking for us. Maybe it'll be Grupper. It could be group.

Everyone loves Gruper. Have you ever tried Arata? It is a flaky white fish. It's delightful on the grill. Yeah. And I will cook it for you every night for the rest of our lives. And we will never, ever be in a story. snowy plays again.

Rough. It's rough. It's rough stuff for my guy. It was really tough. Yeah, I think even Natalie Emmanuel, the actress who plays Miss Andes, has been tweeting, like, can't wait to see you on the beach. Yeah, that was a rough one. Is there anyone, that's my list.

That's my top three McBain's. So my argument against people like Torman and Breyan dying is that in my mind when I try to figure out an idealistic. happy version of the ending of the show, which is hard to see. Is it essentially part of DeNaris's dream comes true?

Maybe she does get to sit on the Iron Throne. Maybe she shares the Iron Throne. I don't know. But her whole idea of breaking the wheel. Like Little Johnson sits on her lap. I love that they went right at that. They really are chopping at that dude with his height.

It's hard to chop at a tree that's small. You know what I mean? Yeah. With a butter knife. Is this idea that there could be basically they disassemble the seven kingdoms that they do break the wheel that there is like a new vision of

government and the way that they break up Westroos and Esos maybe in kind of like nation states or something like that. Because that was sort of what Sansa was getting at. It was like what do I basically I run the north like I'm not giving up the north after this. What if she doesn't have to? What if

there is basically she gets the north, Brian gets apart, you know, Jora gets apart, I don't know. Brin gets apart on the beach? Brian is the matrietye at the crab shack I thought Jora was pretty high up there on the McBank rankings that was the only one I thought you missed Sam being like Take my sword

Because you deserve it Jora had a great He had a great last run reminiscent of Dirknovitzkies I feel like Winterfeld There was a lot of presenting him with jerseys Winterfeld put up a tribute video Up on the big board

Of all the times He'd helped out our friends Sam being like, your dad helped me be a man. You're not wrong, but weirdly I felt the sword bought him a little extra time. I do think that he has

to die in the service of DeNaris. So if we get to a moment next week when she is in jeopardy, then you're right. For whatever reason, I feel like someone else's... The sword is too significant.

In as much as something that was introduced late last season. And everybody's been trying to give him a sword. Like they, because John tried to give him a sword back last year. Yeah. I just can't imagine this sword falls on the icy battlefield and no one else picks it up. So either he brings it back or someone else picks it up. Okay.

It's an interesting call. All right. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. And when we come back, we're going to talk a little about Aria. A little bit about what might happen next week. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Oreo. The most epic cookies of all time are here. cookies are coming.

Brace yourselves. Oreo Game of Thrones Limited Edition packs are in stores now while supplies last. Where does your fealty lie? To whom are you bending the knee? Look, he's a complicated guy and he doesn't necessarily represent a family right now,

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Watch the series premiere of Portals to Hell this Friday at 10 p.m. 9 p.m. Central, only on Travel Channel and stream a sneak peek on the free Travel Channel app today. Okay, we're back. Before we get into the ARIA stuff, I did just want to pick up one thing which you said, which I thought was really interesting, which is this idea of afterwards. Mm-hmm. The show has, as it's steered more into the specific endgame of these characters, and this world definitely leaned away from some of the things that I think brought in a wider audience, not necessarily a wider audience, because people love swords and dragons. But during the first few seasons, when it was more diffuse, and we didn't all know exactly where it was going or at least expect

to understand where it was going or who mattered, the beauty of the show was that it allowed these pockets for conversation to develop about what it might be saying about power, what it might be saying about our own world analogy metaphor, et cetera. And now it's just a tightened ship in all ways. And even I think last week. Game of Thrones is about Game of Thrones now. Yes, and almost commenting on itself at times. The one place where that might not necessarily be true is this concept of afterwards, which I really,

really like. And we joke a minute ago about how these characters are bad at making plans, but these characters who have lived in a perpetual state of crisis for the entirety of their lives. And in fact, the crisis predates their birth. And certainly in the case of DeNaris, everything that she does

is about the death of a father who she didn't know, who was killed by a guy that she just forgave, by the way. That was kind of a good one. Two other people on the, I think she got outvoted on the panel there. But, you know, this seems like a wide-ranging reference to make, but, you know, when they do, when they did a stress test on the people of Cambodia, people who weren't even alive, the Khmer Rouge, like, they're stressed, they elevated enough to think that people who weren't even alive when the horrors were happening have PTSD. Sure. Now we have a fight that is truly an existential fight, almost absurdly should so. They are fighting against death, right? They're fighting, as Sam said,

poetically, they're fighting to preserve memory and thus keep their story, which is being alive. What does happen next? How does a group of people who have never known the, they've never had the possibility of planning very far ahead, who've never actually considered what could happen, figure it out. How do you make peace with peace? How do you get? get past the uncomfortable break in the De Nairis Sonse conversation. I was going to joke about how many crucial conversations are interrupted by, you know, people blowing on horns. That was the only critique I had of last night was the amount of interrupting going on. I think I agree with you, but you could also, if you're going to spin it into this far-fetched thing that I'm trying to piece together on the fly here,

we are reaching a crisis point past crises where there won't be a timely chauffeur blown to interrupt. these conversations with something more important. It's life for death. And now you're going to have to figure it out. And which characters are willing to have those conversations, which characters are equipped

to have those conversations? We joked about Davos dying. Davos is someone who can have those conversations. He's seen it all, done it all, and he's pretty chill about it. Yeah, well, he doesn't have any ambition. The people who have the most interesting conversations

are literally the people who have the least amount of ambition towards how the world works out aside from survival. So who is willing to bend towards, I mean not bend towards justice, but bend towards some version of new thinking, towards fairness, you know, and John does seem to be the most flexible of the powerful people. He's consistently said, I don't care about being king.

I just want what's best here. Except for the last scene of last night's episode. Which was very interesting. I felt like he was a different person when he said that. And Dineris also, this idea of, you know, breaking the wheel, that's, that, I don't think she's doing that anymore. She still just wants to sit on the top of the wheel, you know. She wants to restore her family. Yeah.

And so I'm very interested in how much space the show gives towards that after and what it means and what we can draw from it. Because, you know, the people have used many times a metaphor of like existential crisis. is the show really about global warming or something of climate change. I guess we'll see what it's really about, because there's only four episodes left. But I am curious how much of the show ultimately will feel like it was about the show and how much it will be about setting up a new paradigm for the fictional world of the show that might leave us with something to consider. I certainly think that there's a lot of credence to the idea that the earlier seasons of the show

when they were more about palace intrigue and more about political maneuvering, that they felt more reflective of our... of our world and then with the increased presence of the Knight King it became more of the world of Game of Thrones and in some ways I wish

there had been a more explicit or I think you could have had a more explicit conversation about afterwards when it was just DeNaris versus Sersey and it was just these people choosing sides and thinking about because there is that moment

I think even Tyrion says it to both of them he says it to Circe and DeNaris separately, where he basically is like, the upside, like, the version of events here where she just flies her dragons over King's landing and just melts thousands of people to get what she wants, isn't going to change the world. It's going to kill a lot of people, but we're just going to keep going through this cycle of unbearable violence. And what he was trying to do was think of a

third way, a different way. But the emergence of the Night King and the White Walkers makes it more dystopian and more kind of fantastical because it's just about pure survival. But it would have been interesting to have the conversation of what are we doing here? Well, that's why I wonder, and I bet Jason Mallory have many theories about this, probably the right one as well. The season is structured in a way where Circe is the final battle, right, where the Iron Throne is the final battle. The Golden Company and Your Ron and Circe are like still waiting.

Now, does that mean, and again, I'm sure there's much wiser thinking about this than what I'm about to offer, but either they defeat the army of the dead next week and then march and deal with the next problem, or probably more likely, right, they lose and retreat somehow. To the Iron Islands or Dragonstone is what people think. Yeah. And then the final battles are kind of merged again, right? Yeah, I mean, do you save Circe? You know, maybe that's the question that they have to ask themselves. It's like if once those, once the White Walkers get south and maybe there's a way to to defeat them, you know, they realize how to defeat them again, or they make another run at the Night King or whatever.

But the problem is that I think that we're still, it's not a problem, but we're still learning what the White Walkers want or what the Night King wants, which is apparently Brandt. It's so weird that, like, he has an unstoppable army of the dead that can kill everyone forever, and no one really has any chance to stop him. But his one flaw is that he is essentially swiper from the door of the Explorer, and he just can't help but swipe.

Like, that is pretty interesting. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like if only he had one glaring flaw, like his desire to sneak into places to get one boy. Yeah. That's just, he just can't help himself. I really don't get that plan.

I don't get his plan either, to be fair. No, I mean, I don't get them being like, let's use one of the lesser mobile people as bait. I know that that's like what they need to do. But John being like, we just need to kill one person. By the way, Theoon doesn't even make them like that. rankings. No. No.

Like, Theon's first name is going to be revealed as McBain Ironborn. Theon is like the Mark Wahlberg character who got to walk on to the Eagles. He's so... Vince Papali? Siked to be there? Yeah. He's just like, I can't believe I made it this far. And thus knowing that he's going to be gang tackled.

Yeah. And pulled to pieces. You know what's interesting, though? It's like they've given so much time and so much really beautiful writing to these reunions. I, the deaths are not going to be very, the deaths are going to be pretty savage. There's not much time for them. I know.

They've said goodbyes. And I think that's the other piece of watching a show incrementally that feels very different. And I, and we should talk about the aria stuff and Sansa stuff quickly before we're out about what might happen. But I do just urge everyone listening, everyone who's watching this season, really enjoy this week. like really take pleasure in this week and obviously read all. The second episode. After the second episode, but before Sunday. Like, you know, read all the coverage you want, rewatch all the stuff you want to rewatch,

listen to binge mode and all the other great content that's out there about the show. It's not going to be like this again. Yeah. Every other generation of people who watch this show. We'll know that this is what happens at the end. Not only that. They will end, last night will end, and they will immediately watch. Winterfall?

No, the next one. That's what I mean. There will be Battle of Winterfall. Yeah, whatever it's called. They haven't revealed the title yet, right? No. I thought you were going to say they're going to start watching backwards.

And I'd be like, let me stop you there. That's not how TV works. No, I know what you mean. They'll binge it, yeah. We don't get many moments like this anymore. And it does make me think about like those last six episodes of Breaking Bad, which were the last time TV felt this breathless

and what's going to happen, but something has happened. They've already made these decisions and they're waiting for us. And we can't know. And there's so few things anymore that we can't know that it's kind of delicious.

It's pretty great. I hadn't thought about it like that. Yeah, I mean, I wonder, so I mean, like we could talk a little bit about episode three. Do you want to talk a little bit about the aria scene? I thought it was really well written. I got to say, like, I really liked it. Yeah. I really liked it because it took something that they had been setting up for years.

I don't think this aspect of that relationship or the potential of this relationship was a surprise. But, again, to take advantage of the character building they've done, the time spent, the changes that we've observed, that we're not just being told about in who they are and how they are. The way that she just disarmed him in all senses was terrific. And I'm not the person to be making these judgments, I don't think, but for all the flak the show has gotten, often quite rightly, for its treatment of women, I thought the fullness of the arc of Ari, obviously there's more to come that they've given this character is noteworthy.

I was trying to think of what Gendry could have said that would have been a buzzkill. Okay. All right. Like, when she's like, how many guys, girls have you been with? If he was just, like, just tons. Like, so many. Like, literally incalculable. Yeah. Think about King's Landing.

It's not hard. A guy like me does very well. Or if he had been, like, really kinky. And you've been like, so the Red Woman puts all these leeches on me, man. And I love it. Yeah, exactly. If he's like, let me stop you there. It doesn't matter who I've been with.

It's what's been on top of me. Literally removing my blood. And if you've been like, I just honestly, I don't even get into bed unless somebody's got a jar of leeches with them. So unless, if that, I see you taking your gloves off, unless the next thing you do is remove a packet of aquarium-grade leeches. I'm out. I'm not familiar with the flora and fauna of the north if there are any sort of attaching insects. Any sorts of bugs that I could plausibly put on my body to recreate the feelings of that one magical night with a character who seems to not be on the ship. show anymore. That would be best.

Jacobi texted David Jacobi, who we used to work with at Greenland, obviously, is basically the reason why we have a podcast. He emailed him. He was like, I think that the Shereen doppelganger who comes up to the suit line, he was like, that's the red woman. She's like, put herself in that person's body. I don't know if that's

possible at all. She can put herself in the bodies of small children? I mean, anything is possible in this show, I suppose. But I think I was more of just like, Gilly and Davos get to have, like, a moment with this character. David Jacoby woke up in New York before heading off to his wildly successful

radio and TV show. Yeah. Before even like greeting or spending a quality moment with his three beautiful children. Today's his wife's birthday, by the way. Facebook let me know that today's Jacobi...

I think it's a family affair for them. I think they all like... I mean, I don't know if his younger children liked... I hope not. They're very young. I'm just saying, of all the things for King David Jacobi...

It's the momoculture, man. What do you want? Everybody's watching. Everybody except Kaya. It's not like he was writing us and being like, what do you think giant's milk tastes like? Or I think grayworm's about to get got. It was some obscure side theory.

Well, she's not, she says she has to die in Westeros. Where the hell is she? Maybe she died. No, she's coming back. Nobody goes, I have to die in a specific place, BRB, and then they don't come back. I think lots of people say that. Oh, on TV shows? Yeah.

No, no, they don't. I thought you meant just a just a job. general. So that's the aria stuff. Glad we got that out of the way. Yeah.

What else do we have to hit from this? Are people shipping Sonsa and Theon? Yeah. That's weird. Is that weird?

That's weird. I've been talking for like eight years about how I like watching these twins bang. A couple things. I'm not going to share

with everyone the texts we exchanged with Mallory Rubin last night. Let's do it. This is about radical transparency. Haven't we learned anything from our surveillance

state? Let's do it. Fine. Let's say what we should You and I were texting last night when I got home. You were like, great episode, blah, blah, we're going back and forth. So then I, so right, so I said, so I wondered about that love affair and you wrote,

that will be a somewhat chaste love. And I said, we all thought the same thing about gray worm and Miss Enday. Yes, that's true. But Unix are DTF. Right. And then you, you jumped in, you wondered what Unix have and didn't have. I didn't want. I think Unix have no, um, what?

Marbles. Marbles. Right. Well, Theon has no... John Thomas. Terrific. Right. And then you said, right? Is that right? I don't know. Let's bring Mel into this chat. That's what you said. I was willing to Google. So I sent her a screencap of that conversation and her response, within seconds.

After a full day of filming and talking, LMAO, thank you for coming to me with this. So this is just... I feel like you're right. We should help people. They might not know. So this is a direct quote from Mallory's text. Unsullied to borrow Danny's phrasing, have neither the pillar nor the stones, as we understand it. Okay. Same for Theon. All gone.

Nothing to wound by kneeing as we saw in the season seven finale. Not sure. I feel like getting neat anywhere post-op would hurt. We talked about that recently, because we did a rehearsal show about the season seven finale. Right. And there's just like, Theon just gets knead in the groin like eight times.

And he's like, it only makes me stronger. And it's just like, that would still, is it just all dead? it's like no feeling down there. Can I be clear? You could knee me anywhere on my body and I'm done. Anywhere. My calf?

Yeah. My foot. I don't know how you get your knee down there, but like it would hurt. Yeah. It only makes him stronger? I don't know. He just got up out of the sand and was just like my bloody face. Now I'm your leader.

Yeah, that's not me, man. That ain't it. Anyway, what Mallory deeply believes is that when Missande and Greyworm experience with each other was... I don't know if you should see it. Non-traditional. Non-traditional love. That's all.

I'm not kinkshaming. She was just saying that... Look, we just talked about leeches for like five minutes. That's cool. Everybody likes that. This was outside the realm of the Seven Kingdoms. Anyway, not everybody has to be in love.

Not everybody has to be romantic. That's fine. I think she just trusts him weirdly. That I like. I only brought it up because it was the romantic part that didn't make sense where it's like there is something that is wonderful about this, all the various reunions, especially in Winterfell with the stark kids, who were not all stark kids, as it turns out, and had complicated relationships within the family. And it kind of

challenges this notion of unilateral, like, I fight for my family, I fight for my house. Now Jamie is broken, which is actually another thing that the show articulates in an interesting way, which is true to our own psychology, which is family is just like, family just happens. You don't have to. Well, it's loyalty. That was the whole thing. Fuck loyalty was what Brand said to him. Right. And it's ultimately true. Like, and we were talking about, this in the writer's room the other day, just about like sibling relationships and how this is probably interesting to you as well, because we're both only children. But like, I definitely grew up thinking people who are siblings, like had this magical telepathic bond and had to be

united in everything and all things. And then I watch a show like Catastrophe. And Fergal and Sharon, not on the same page. Yeah, I mean, you also met people with brothers and sisters and they were like, I don't like that guy. No, but then I thought it would click. You know, I thought like something magical clicks. And it's actually, you're just people and you have to learn to love people as people. And especially on this show, especially the Stark Kids, each one of them. them has gone through significant trauma and each one of them has come back from that trauma completely different. So Aria is now a faceless assassin. Brand is an all-seeing, all-knowing demigod. John is a Messiah and Theon is a, let's just say he doesn't have a ton of fuels down there.

And Sonsa shops at Asian provocateur. That's right. That's cool. Okay, do you want to say anything about next week? I'm excited. I'll just reiterate what I said a minute ago. Like this is going to be an epic battle. It's going to be unlike any episode of television ever made.

Miguel back. Sepachnik back? Yeah. Longest battle ever filmed longer than Helms Deep. It's great. Yeah. It's really exciting.

What do you think is like the... So, Circe was like, they didn't have any Circe in the second episode. Yeah. And I mentioned this to Malas and I was like, I wonder if Circe's just not going to be in two straight episodes. And she was like, I bet what they'll do is have like was for the battle in the past.

where there was like a bit of King's Landing stuff before that. Oh, it might start there. Right. I was like, that's such a bad beat. It's like the Battle of Winterfell and Circe's like, hmm. Part like sparring with Uron about what to name the baby. She's just sitting by the window, like sipping wine, like the Kermit Sips Tea gift.

That's not that interesting. Yeah, I just, let's get right into the crypts. Let's just. Also, that was the other thing that was really funny on Twitter. It was just everybody being like, man, the crypts are so safe. If you just like to think or you can't fight, seriously, go down there where all the dead bodies are buried underneath. I got a text last night. I just finished watching the show.

We had just determined who was smooth like a Ken doll and who wasn't. Old pal friend of the watch, Damon Lindelof texts me. And he's just like, I'm halfway through the episode. So maybe they mention this. But why are all the women and children going down to the place literally full of dead bodies who will reanimate like Ray Harryhausen models? That actually does not bode well for Tyrion. No.

Not at all. Yeah. I mean, like, Sean Beanback? Like, just skeletons? Can he reanimate? I was wondering, is there a statute of limitations? Can you bring back dust zombies? Yeah.

From like pulverized bones? Well, I mean, like, I think that the idea is this is more that I don't think that the battle lines will hold very long. Right. Like, I think that pretty soon it's going to be close quarters combat. Did you see the bridge, the collapse? that Grey Worm was observing? I think that's going to work pretty well.

So many minutes. How long would this episode have been? I know you guys think it might be a little premature for me to be investing in Mayorka real estate. But have you guys seen this fucking bridge? You could be on it. It doesn't quite collapse, but it goes up on both sides. A little bit.

A little bit. How long was the running time of this episode have been? If you had just snipped all the scenes of people walking around... Don't say snip around Greyworm. Good call. If you had lightly edited all... the scenes of people like Greyworm walking around, looking at stuff and nodding.

Yeah, I know. It's a 30-minute episode. You're in your out. Come on, Dave and Dan. Shouts to Greyworm. Let's wrap it up there. Greenwald, thank you. We'll be back next Monday for the Battle of Winterfeld post-game show.

Enjoy this week. Enjoy the not knowing. You can watch Talk the Thrones on Twitter. You can listen to us now. You can listen to binge mode on Wednesday night, Thursday morning. You can listen to the precapables, Riley and Zach on Friday, I believe.

And also, you know, there's tons of other stuff on the ringer to check out. We're writing about it all the time. Allison Herman. Riley, Zach, everybody's writing about Game of Thrones, so one-stop shop. Later. Oh, remember, don't watch the episodes backwards. That was a bad suggestion by Chris.

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