The Watch - Breaking Down ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 2: “Rehearsal”

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the second episode of ‘Succession’ Season 4, “Rehearsal.” They talk about the motivations of each of the kids (1:00), how Connor may be the sibling that holds the most power (27:14), and some of the funniest scenes from this episode (40:46). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to Harcrucks. Homework, the show. I am a bald man talking about NATO and joining me on the other line. He's a plant that grows on rocks and lives on insects that die inside of him. It's Andy Greenwald.

Is it bad that I felt personally seen slash triggered by this episode of Succession? Oh, my God. I felt like Chessie was describing my favorite television. Inside baseball? I felt like he was going after me a little bit. I like Homework, the show. Oh my God. Greenwald, we're so happy to be together. I'm speaking for you. We're joined by Kaya. We're recording this on a Sunday. So just pumped in Jack to be talking about succession. Season 4, episode two, the episode is called rehearsal. It's great to see your face, albeit on Zoom. This couldn't be better. This couldn't be better for me. Because, you know, Chris, like all great shows, this podcast teaches you how to watch it or listen to it. You know, so I feel like we're going to do a lot of learning together today.

You want to just do broad strokes and say, you know, I felt like in retrospect this episode wound up being maybe more usefully viewed in conjunction with the first episode as one big episode. I'm sure everybody involved with Succession would disagree with me. But I think it's helpful since the action essentially picks up the next day. You know, we ended the first episode with Logan at night watching his ATN news broadcast and with Shiv and Tom having that really tender moment. But the action pretty much picks up almost immediately. in the second episode with the Roy kids back in upstate New York? I believe they're in Albany, scenic Albany. Why? I mean, I know they made a joke about walking from Albany, but I thought maybe it was like a Catskill situation. It must be. Maybe they were, Albany was the nearest regional hub for them to have their PJ or helicopter.

Again, when you get into the weeds with the show, they're very expensive weeds, and I can't quite decipher them. But yes, they're in New York State. Yeah, and I thought this was an interesting episode in so much as it's an inversion of what usually happens in the succession where there is an event. It's Connor's rehearsal dinner, but that is only attended for about five seconds. The majority of the episode is these continue to be these little chamber pieces of the kids kind of huddled together in different interiors and Logan kind of ranging around and trying to decide who he is in a post, although not quite

post-Gojo world of the sale of Waystar to Gojo. So why just give me your initial reaction to the episode? Well, I think that it, I feel like this has happened before in previous seasons of succession, where in the early going, I am so impressed by the artful way with which Jesse and his writers undo things rearrange the board, so to speak. I mean, this is the work of television shows. And it's the kind of work that they do so well that does sometimes give you the sense that they could be doing this for 10 years, where every year could end with some, oh my God, he's really going to do it this time. and then they just reset everything. Because we are being manipulated in the way the characters are being manipulated. We're walking back from the ledge of the previous season,

but you don't really mind, right? Like, all of a sudden, the kids are doing this, and they've changed their mind, and now they're going to scuttle the deal, and the Gojo deal isn't a done deal anyway, and we have to get them back in proximity to each other. But the artful way with which it's done, it's almost a pleasure to watch,

because of course it's going to happen, right? So I thought that was interesting, just in terms of a structure and resettling kind of thing. But my main takeaway from the, the episode was emotional. You know, I feel like, again, this is something we've said in seasons past, but I like to reach for farming analogies because it's really a place that I feel comfortable. It's something I know a lot about, you know, in my free time. And I feel like they keep tilling the same soil and yet somehow finding new roots the deeper they go. And I thought that the

emotional stuff that was unearthed this episode was kind of unsettling. You know, and I think that the show is so brilliant. It constantly, there's darts, there's daggers, there's barbs. But for the first time in a while, I really thought that they drew blood this time. And there were moments, not just involving the family. There's the moment when Hugo and Jerry are laughing over the carry tape. And, you know, Logan sort of humiliates them and forces them into seeing what they were watching. There was the things that the kids say to their father in that karaoke chamber,

which is something I never thought I would say about this program. And I'm sure we're going to get to it. There's obviously the speech you're alluding to that Connor delivers where it almost made you uneasy. It was a little queasy making to me how much blood was actually being drawn. These are things they've said before. These are situations we've been in before, but it didn't feel so good and fun anymore. Like maybe we're getting close to bone in a way that we hadn't. So in my first viewing of some of the episode, I was like, oh, I'm not sure where to stand here.

I feel a little bit like seasick almost watching it. I re-ran through some of it and it kind of evened itself out. little bit. But I thought that was interesting because as we approach the end game, there's obviously we're going to get closer and closer to the heart of things. You know, I think that I've always thought of this show is about a father and his children and like the idea of what an inheritance is and the idea of like what did they inherit from him in terms of characteristics or I use this term loosely, but ethics. And then also about what did they inherit from him in a very practical financial and business sense.

And, you know, largely this show has been about this father figure abusing his children in various ways. And then this episode, as it ended, I was like, is this show about these children fucking one another over? Like, because

repeatedly, over the course of the series, but especially in the last two seasons, I think that we've been given example after example of thinking, okay, this like, rag-tag group of misfit toys has decided to pull together and recreate their

family and recreate their legacy and recreate their inheritance for whatever reasons. You know, not always like obviously good ones, but they do want to make something new in the world or make something for themselves. And I think I'm completely

make their own pile, so to speak. I'm dissuaded from that notion now because they can't concentrate on a single thing for more than 24 hours, as these last two episodes have shown us. Yeah, I I think that's a great observation because the other thing I was going to say is that this was a very Logan sympathetic episode in a surprising way, right? I think, first, maybe we'll get into the stuff later, but like Brian Cox is a Titan. This show doesn't simply doesn't work without him and his rage and fury and charisma.

And this episode did a pretty remarkable job kind of proving his point that for all of his major flaws and certainly, you know, still not winning parent of the month. He's got his wits about him. His instincts about business and about reading the rooms and the various rooms that he's in appear to be correct and intact, right? I mean, we could, the rug could get pulled out of him again, but broadly he does seem to be right. And his most devastating line of the episode, to his children, I love you, but you're not

serious people. Yeah. Is born out by the text, right? Yes. Now, is it his fault that they behave this way? that they can't quit him, that everyone grovels and wheedles and collapses and, you know, turns on each other in his presence? Yes.

Broadly, yes. But he is who he is. I mean, there is that idea that this constant through the series. He hasn't changed, right? And the kids certainly haven't changed either, despite many, many opportunities to get out and bring it all the way back to your point. Yeah, how long did the peer stallions last? I mean, they had to see one bald professor talking about NATO. The hundreds was a several-month plan that went up and smoke in one phone call.

the pierced dallions lasted for all of 24 hours until shiv decides to call sandy and i think this is an extension of some of the stuff that happened in um this third season it was the fifth episode the retired janitors of idaho one where essentially shiv seems to be negotiating for a board seat for herself or an extra board seat or something in those lines and by doing that she'll like you know it's it's essentially giving sandy furnace and stewie more power, herself more power, but also like stopping the acquisition of Waystar. And then as soon as sheves off the phone and not telling the rest of her family about what's going on, Logan gets a phone call in New York from Lucas Mattson, which is rather odd because he essentially, whether you say that this is part of, or sorry, Kendall, whether this is Kendall's self-sabotage streak or whatever you think it is, he essentially gets off the phone

with Mattson and does the exact opposite of what Mattson just told him to do. Mattson says, don't you, don't fuck this deal because I will walk. And Kendall immediately walks into the bar and is like, we should hit the breaks on this deal and trying to get more money out of him. Well, you know, I've never been in high leverage negotiations at any point of my life, but I do read the athletic regularly. So I understand the mindset of like the draft war room, you know what I mean, in the GM mindset. And my assumption here was that Kendall was like, if he's FaceTiming me, God knows what hour it is in Stockholm. It's because he's nervous. He's nervous. And so there's blood in the water. So I will look at the things that Stewie sent.

I think it's evidence that the kids, they see a shiny thing in front of him, and they react to it. They have no long-term plan sense. They have no, like, they're not looking at the whole board, right? They're not, and they certainly lack whatever their father claims to have in spades, which is just in his gut. He knows how to read this, and he knows what the deal is and the shape of it and the parameters and when to go. But I think the other more interesting psychological argument is they're all just

desperate for distraction. They just cannot stop moving. They cannot sit with anything because if they have, if they cash out with billions, then really all they have left is the hundreds. Right. I mean that literally and metaphorically, right? Like the great game is over and all they have left is themselves. And what you're seeing again and again this season is these three kids cannot be alone with themselves.

Particularly noticing it with Shiv in a way we hadn't before, right? Who seems just absolutely she's unhinged. She's really paranoid about her. Yeah. And for good reason. And I think that the final sort of betrayal, quote unquote, although in some ways I think he was left with no real other options is Roman going back to his father. you know, I was kind of thinking about this show in terms of its two major kind of missions, which is one is satire and one is this sort of family drama. And you watch, you know,

these kids who I think all the viewers, all the audience has like different emotional relationships to various characters on this show, but specifically the three main kids. And it's hard to view them satirically sometimes. You know, I often like think a good example of this would be say the big short, right? All the bankers. who aren't working for Steve Carell are complete caricatures. They're cartoons. They're there to be lampoon.

They're there to be laughed at. They're there to be disgusted by. But Steve Carell, and ironically Jeremy Strong and Hamish Link later, they're normal guys who found this disease at the heart of the American economy

and we're not supposed to laugh at them. They're not funny. They're white knights, even though they tell you they're not. Right. Succession shoots the kids like they're the white knights or like they're the normal people at the center of this, but I think that they're actually being lampooned constantly.

Logan's, uh, you're not serious people is like the total indictment of these characters that for four seasons now, or for by the end of this, it'll be 40 episodes of television more or less where they haven't really achieved anything. They haven't done anything. They blew up a satellite. Uh, they've,

they've destroyed, you know, however much like generational wealth with their behavior, whatever you want to say about it. But I was really. struck by it because the funniest, one of the funniest things I've ever seen on Succession is those guys watching Pierce that morning after they've basically bought it and like immediately losing interest in the project. Yeah. And nobody can sit still and nobody wants to do anything that has to

be. And because there is a, the 10 season version of Succession is an entire two seasons of them reprogramming the MSNBC that Pierce owns. Turn to get it to full clockwork orange at night. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know. It's like, it's like, It's not that I want that show, but I was really struck by what's the target of the satire. And it's really becoming apparent to me that it's the kids, at least for me. Yeah, well, they have, because they literally have nothing. I mean, I think that ties into my observation about Logan in this episode too, right, which is that for, again, a flawed character.

I think we could all agree, a flawed fictional human being. But absolute bedrock firm into who he is and how he fits into the world, right? and how he moves through it and what rooms do to him and what he does in rooms. The kids are absolutely absurd. When they are siloed together, the way they speak to each other, the way they interact with the world, the way they dress, which obviously gets outsized attention elsewhere on the internet as it should, but I was noticing it again this week with just, you know, the Buddhist and Tom Ford, but also just like what Shiv wears on a Tuesday.

you put that into planet Earth, like when they go to the dive bar, and you're like, this, this is absurd. This is completely absurd. They are not serious people engaged in the planet that we're engaged with, and it just simply wouldn't work. If they don't have each other, it fundamentally doesn't work. And yeah, it's kind of crushing, right? Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about motivations here, because he touched on it with this idea that Kendall has actually got good business sense and that when Lucas throws up that, that, that, panic call. At least he has the first, he has the right first read of the situation. But crucially does not inform the children of that. He's not like, Mattson just called me. Yeah, his siblings. Mattzen just called me and

he doesn't say, I think that he's nervous and I think we could, we can exploit that nervousness by getting, now it sounded like at the end of the episode, he was like another $100 million, which is pretty funny in comparison to the Pierce negotiation because they're just like, who cares? It's just

just another $500 million that we're throwing it. It turns out that they are over their skis and they are stretched thin now that they owe Pierce $10 billion. But let's just kind of talk through what you think is going on with the children collectively, but also maybe individually in their immediately like kind of like derailing this deal. Well, I think that it's broadly, it's what you said, right, that they are fundamentally unsurious and ungrounded people who have nothing beyond what's right in front of them. and the thought of agreeing and settling and being done with it is too absolutely existentially

mortifying to entertain. And so what can they do to throw in its path? And I think to achieve that, they each have their own ways of presenting it to the group, and they have their own internal combustion engines that are explaining things. And in moments like this, I think about the language and the way they speak to each other. You know, we've commented before, and others have as well that Jesse Armstrong is British, and a lot of the writing staff is British. And one thing that you and I both know, for me, from one way, from one way,

watching British shows and you from, you know, collecting viruses internationally, is that British people love to end sentences with questions? Right? Yeah. It's a bit sad, isn't it? You know, like, yeah? And these kids do that too. They're always like, yeah, yeah, at the end of each sentence as if they're building this idea out of clay and sending little like bat sonar pings out to make sure that we could do this right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're trying to build this sort of fragile house of cards thing together and the language sort of reflects their inner state piece by piece, right? So we should get into it. Like the Roman thing is the simplest and it's played out in the episode. He isn't an alpha. He actually just wants to be loved. And so, you know, and so is his,

is his verbage the most extreme? Yes. But are his motivations the most clear? I think yes as well. Is he going to get it from his siblings? Enough. Is it enough? No. Okay, back to dad. Or does he agree with my assessment of what's going on and his father's where it's like, these are not serious people? And for as unserious as Roman is, do you think that he's like looking at this at the end of the day and is like, so we've gone through three different business plans in three days? Yes, I think that this, but this is also the cracked kaleidoscope with which the show functions so well if you look through it, which is yes, that's true.

But also, Kieran Culkin's face, when his father says, I need you. is everything. That's the only thing that any of them need. Yeah. Yeah. And his brother and sister have never really said that,

you know, and so that just, it just the era finds the target. That's what it's looking for. The Kendall and Shipp, I mean, we could go piece by piece. The Shiv, who do you want to go with next?

Let's go Shiv. Because I actually needed to do, that almost pushed me as even somebody who was podcasted about succession upwards of two to three times a week for the last few years. I was like, what's she doing?

Like, does she get to run Waystar if this happens? Or I was trying to like basically go back through the various Sandy Furness because it was Sandy's father and now it's Sandy played by Hope Davis and Stews involved and what they're trying to do, what it would mean if Shiv got this extra board seat. But there's veto power over the children taking over. Like it's a little bit murky to me. Yeah, I would say, I think it is murky. I would also say, and I would love to be.

wrong about this, that if the writers have loosened their grip on anyone this season, it would be Chavon. Like, I feel a little adrift with her motivations as well. It seems to be, at least through these first two episodes, almost entirely an emotional unmooring, that the wedding and union with Tom provided her with at least some, like, wire, mesh monkey in the famous experiment version of stability. like at least there was something to tether her. Yeah.

And that not only becoming loosened, but also being corrupted by the Logan virus, has affected her in a way that is... I haven't had that yet. Is that good? The Logan virus? Well, as you know, I've been traveling, so I haven't swabbed myself recently,

but it's quite possible. Is that just a nice way of putting piss madness? I forgot about that. Yeah. That's actually... Don't worry about Dad. He just has a little Logan madness. It's just like actually...

His synapses are floated with poison urine. It's how Kendall explains it to his children, who we probably won't see again for the remainder of the series. Shout out to them. But anyway, but you know what I mean? Like that seems to have, but in terms of what specifically she wants, it's trickier to say,

and maybe always was trickier, because from the beginning, I think early on, at least in season one, you could correctly identify that Roman just wants his father to love him. I mean, that's what they all want, but that is specifically what he wants. Kendall wants his father to love him,

but he also wants to kill his father. in an edible way and take over the company and prove something to everyone. Shiv's whole thing from the beginning was that she didn't need it, right? Her coming back into the fold and then maybe becoming a viable candidate and her ego being both teased and stoked and then, you know, brought into full flower was kind of the direction of season two. Yes. And I would say that the, for as upset as she is about the divorce lawyers in this episode,

which she has every right to be, the most hurt I've ever seen her is in that episode of, of season three that we were referring to the retired janitor's episode where Logan has a UTI and when he comes to it's just like stop fucking buzzing around me to Shiv and just completely dismisses not only

her as a person but all the machinations that she put into place while he was infirm and you know we can go through that whole karaoke scene sort of frame by frame if you want to but yeah I agree with you that it's getting a little bit cloudy She also, and I think this is a testament to the way Sarah Snook is playing it, she just seems knocked off her square.

Yeah. You know, when she came back in, when she got the Tom call about Naomi Pierce in the season premiere, and she came back into the room and she's sort of holding her stomach, which is, you know, a place many, many people feel anxiety and distress. And her brothers are calling her on it, but they have nothing to say about it. I mean, that queasy feeling in her body has played through, including in that karaoke scene where she is dishing. out, but it's, when I was referring before to being sort of uncomfortable by the scene, a lot of it came from her line readings, you know. It's savage and it's noisy and it's uncomfortable. So in terms of what she wants out of this, it's less clear. I think more than anything, what I'm feeling is just the anguish and the frenzy, right? And she's, she's acting out in a way that I don't think we've

seen. The Kendall thing is interesting because, you know, I'm sure that, you know, the Times has their little election meter, which everyone loves, makes everyone feel good. Yeah, usually. And it's also down on usually, yeah. The Kendall meter has, you know, it has swung wildly over the last three or four seasons. Yeah, as his nervous system has as well. But he is relatively Zen thus far this season, not just in sort of the way that he's speaking about things, you know, what is it, your greatest adversary, might be your greatest teacher.

But he does seem to be comfortable in this place. Like this moment of absolute peril. and but but also action that is to coin a phrase, I believe, his juice. And this is maybe when he's at his best. So is his desire just to extend the drama, you know, because I, it otherwise it's sort of hard to tell. Does he just want to punt, basically? Yeah.

What does Kendall do, right? Like, I don't mean what does Kendall do next? I mean, like, what does he do? Like, what does this guy want to be doing? because it doesn't seem like he actually deep down wants to be in control of anything or in charge of anything. And he's taken on a couple of different guises, you know, this rebellious truth teller. He's been Logan's blood bag. Essentially, you know, he's been all these different things over the course of the series.

He's been fucked up. He's been sober. He's been a family man. He's been a playboy. He's been right wing. He's been left wing. He's kind of like run the gamut. and there was something almost melancholy in the end of that karaoke scene where Roman's obviously

reeling from like how that went and Schiff does the shot and is like, how was it for you, fucking dad? Yeah. And Kendall's like, yeah, like there's almost something like very empty and what they're trying to do. Not because it's ultimately, you know, stupid that these people are just trading back and forth mainstream media properties, but that also like it's never as bad or as good as you think it's going to be. And Kendall's somebody who's gone through that, right? Like, he's killed someone and there's been no consequences. He's had that murder revealed to his family members and there's been no

consequences. He's smoked meth in New Mexico. He's been sober. He's been everything and nothing really seems to matter. And so now the only thing that there is is that like five seconds of like, ooh, I got the phone call or Stewie came to see me or my dad looked me in the eye or whatever it is. And so it's really just small victories for him. But you're right. I mean, I don't really, I don't really know what that guy wants. Right. And here's the thing. thing. I think that sometimes you can look at, because Succession is so actively covered and discussed and passionately, like, enjoyed, right? There is an idea that only death will matter on Succession, ultimately, that it's either, like, Logan eventually passing away, or we were all jacked up

about Kendall possibly dying in season three. But I think that's, some of the bloodlust comes from what I'm talking about, where I don't know what matters on this show unless somebody dies because like everything else winds up working out in the end. Well, I think it's, I would. And that's not a criticism. It's just an observation. No, no. What I think is interesting and particularly interesting to keep an eye on for these last

weeks of the show is that episodes like this remind us that this writing staff has been to therapy. This writing staff has a pretty healthy understanding of emotional dynamics and mismatches and the peril and fallacy of expectations and is content to present it to us and let us wallow in it too, which is to say, Logan came to the children

in a less than ideal circumstance and said, sorry. That did happen. He did do that. And you could then deflect or judo, use mind judo and be like, well, it was a gambit. He didn't mean it, whatever.

He came to them and said, sorry. What they do with that is telling. And what they do with it is immediately brush it aside. They say it's not valid. It's not what they want. It's a mismatch. It doesn't fill the hole they carry around with them.

And what this episode does, and maybe it's one of the reasons why I found it, you know, relatively uncomfortable, is that it's like, guys, nothing ever will fill that hole. That time has passed. You're adults. Roman is 40. You know what I mean? Like you can't get that back. Right. You can't get that back from your father.

He's not going to give you what you feel owed. What you have to do is take it on face value. You're not changing your father. You're not changing your circumstance. You're not changing your past. What did he say to you? How do you feel about it? And then you choose to either move on or not move on.

And that's really heavy shit for life. It's not dramatic for a television show. But I really admire and respect that the show understands that and presents it to us unadorned. So we could see, like, this may be, I mean, we haven't, we're not watching ahead. We don't know. I assume the show will make good on. its promise of a title at some point, you know, in the next few episodes. This might be the last time Logan comes to them with any kind of humility. This might be the last time he says,

I love you, but, or just I love you, forget the butt. And this is what they did with it. Do I blame them? No. But it's not going to, they're not going to be satisfied as long as they carry this level of anger and resentment and need for something that's not forthcoming. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines.

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But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. The only one of them that's able to just go back to his own home and move on is Connor. This is, yeah, we have to talk about that. Which is hilarious because you can use Alan Ruck and that character as a punchline as much as you want and I'll be there for it.

he's just the fucking funniest. And then you can use him, this is why this show is kind of operating at a different level, is that you can bring him in at the end. And not only does he follow up Logan's assessment of the siblings with his own,

which is equally cutting, but then he's able to be like, I'm going home. And when he goes home, Will is waiting for him. And when he goes home, as ridiculous as a narcissistic and privileged as his run

for the presidency is for his, you know, cherished 1%, it's his. You know, and he's actually stuck with it, almost to a point of being like, I can't believe this guy is still running for precedent after two seasons or whatever. But, like, he has more of a sense of, like,

commitment to something than the kids do. The other kids do. Here's one of the secret special sauces that makes this show better than almost everything else that I think is overlooked. Everyone on the show is a target of ridicule, a satire. Everyone on the show can be funny.

and be absurd. But the show somehow doesn't really judge them. Yeah. You know, it certainly doesn't judge their internal emotional engines for being the way they are. And that's never more true than with Connor, who, yeah, in many ways, is a joke. And certainly is a joke to the 99% of the country that isn't supporting his presidency or his candidacy for the presidency. But his revelations about how he thinks about himself and how he thinks about himself and how he how he thinks about his siblings.

And the fact that all he wants, you know, is a quiet proletariat wheat beer in a bar filled with men who blood in their hair. Not a hog garden. But to come home. And, you know, I think it was very interesting. You said the thing about the episodes being well-matched, well-paired, the first two. The funniest thing about that is that, like, that bar is very normal. The most normal bar.

They're just like, there's, like, sawdust and teeth on. the floor. You're like, that's like the bar you go into on a Tuesday. Yeah, there are those bars. Fantasy said he thought it was a corner bistro or he thought it might be. Hmm. I, I, I didn't see them, I didn't see anyone ordering burgers. No, I know. They didn't see that. Did you say overrated burgers? Ooh, I just, I'm spicy. You took a shot at New Mexico a minute ago. I let that slide. My home away from home. You're like, he did meth in New Mexico. No, I just meant that it's, It does seem abundant there. It's true.

In the larger sort of prestige television universe, that's where you go. One of its great cultural exports, it's true. No, but I thought it was interesting that the first and second episode of the season ended with couples in bed, you know, lying down with each other. And, you know, again, in terms of like the show's careful, emotional storytelling calculus, is like people end up in bed with other people for multiplicity of reasons. but it is it is an agreement if you're both there you know no one's hopefully it certainly in these cases no one is making anyone be there and will have went on a journey deep to the bottom of the

east river apparently do you think the next episode is actually going to be her like all willa and where she went i wish but she but she came back now you know this is it's an interesting relationship to to base the um again the emotional core of of the episode on because this was purely transactional at the start. You know, I think so much of the show, you know, they said this in the karaoke, this isn't personal. This is purely business and they couldn't be lying more if they tried. But Willow, there was a transactional relationship that has turned into something that benefits

both of them to a degree. And it was weirdly sweet. Now, does that show how brainbroken we are by the show? Oh, no. I think that that's the, well, so it's funny that you're talking about that because I was just reading it at Kieran Culkin interview. where he was like, Connor is secretly the most evil person on this show.

He bought a person and like kept her against her will in this situation. But it just goes to show you that you can watch this show, be like, this is kind of obscene, but also heart. It's touching. And I kind of sometimes, I got to admit, I felt the same thing about Carrie throughout this episode, who is kind of like this new narrative element in the show is like kind of putting her in the martial role,

not the martial role, but as like somebody who is obviously the object of Logan's romantic attention, much like the Holly Hunter character in the second season. But to kind of have like a gag, that's like the carry thing is a gag to have her like her audition tape and everybody is watching it and laughing at it. And it is quite funny to watch her just be like, you know, a massive car accident in Missouri. You know, and that was great. but they don't let everybody off the hook for just the cheap laugh.

They make sure that they all make fun of her to her face and we see it and we see her face after that too. But what else do they do? She walks into that karaoke room and she's the voice of reason. Yeah. She has no place in that room, in quotes,

but she's right. You know, she seems to be objectively calling balls and strikes in that scene for as absurd as that is to say, which is also interesting that everyone gets their moment of perspective, especially in this madhouse that everyone else finds themselves in.

What did you think of... Wait, before we move on. Sorry, I just had one more thing since we were talking about Connor. I may have to say this every week for the rest of this podcast, or at least this succession-focused period of the podcast. But casting, man. Keep doing it for the next 10 years. Did you sign a 10-year deal?

Are you a promising shortstop? The CBA just went through. So, yeah. Like, do you think people are saying about you with the said about Trey Turner, which is that just because of body type, he'll age well even in that position? Like, we shouldn't worry about the length because he's, I just want to say fucking casting, man. Like, you know, we know from like when Casey Boys from HBO came and talked to us and from conversations we've had with him that he feels very fondly about the show. Of course, it's a huge Emmy winning hit for him. But one of the reasons I think that he and people who work on the show feel great about it is because it feels more.

organic, right? It's not the more contemporary way of building a show where it's packaged with big stars and then shopped around. Like this was an idea that they developed, then they cast and they cast it very carefully and specifically. And when the show was announced, I'm sure, I don't remember reading, you know, seeing it in deadline and having, I don't, I don't remember the moment. But I'm sure that I and many others saw it and was like, oh, Brian Cox headlining a show. I love Brian Cox, but like that's interesting. That's not eye catching in this era of true detective, et cetera, etc. This show works because it is not only

hit after hit after hit down the lineup, like the Phillies were supposed to be this year, but also... Relax, man, it's been two games. I like to be current. This is like a proof of life stamps. They know that we didn't record the six weeks ago. Most of the middle of our lineup is like massively

injured. It's all right, man. All right. I like this new Zen new. I'm like Buddha and Tom Ford over here. But, but, but like these are people who we now will only think of in these roles in a way, you know? And it's just, but it's like Helen Ruck, always good. Since Ferris Bueller's Day Off, always good.

He is transcendent in this part. And it's partly because he hasn't had the chance to do it. It's partly because the role built, he and the role grew together, you know, it's also because he's been doing it for four years and just knows it inside it out. And so the luxury of a show like this, you could look at an episode like this and you could think, oh, luxury in two senses. One, in the sense that the siblings move. through like 12 fully separate locations, including a car meet on the streets of Manhattan,

you know, or when Logan is just walking down Manhattan talking about the rats who are fat and were like, oh, they shut down the East Village for a night just for this one scene. So you could look at the show as an exemplar of luxury for that. Or you could be like, oh, they're going to end an episode with the tertiary characters played by Connor and Willa played by Alan Rock and Justine. I don't know if it's Loop or Lupe. I've never said her name out loud before I apologize. who are world-class actors

just playing a silent scene together. To me, that's luxury. Look what you have in the bank where you can do that. It's just stunning. They're all so good. I want to talk a little bit about the ATN part of this.

Logan's half-time speech to the players was when he's lurking like jaws of everybody in the town worked for jaws. And yeah, I love, that's another like kind of 10 year plan for this show is if the two sides of this, like, had rival cable networks during

an election year. Oh, my God. But, you know, obviously this is something where it's like, you get to see Logan actually be a craftsman rather than just this like art of the deal guy. And he's actually standing, what does he call the guy as to Conavite? Because he's like, he's written one email. He's like, don't tire yourself out. And, uh, yeah, there was a moment where I like when they put together the little platform of Xerox paper, where I was like, this would be absolutely amazing if this is how Logan dies, is he falls off this like fake.

Falls off six inch pile of paper. Yeah. In the middle of the AT&N. At that age, it can get kind of dangerous, you know? It's also another example of like, yeah,

this is, I mean, obviously a lot of the show is riffing on the Murdox, but like this is what happened when he sold the studios but kept the news organization and it was like going to roll my sleeves up and be a newsman again because that's what's in his blood and you know that's that's been really good for democracy but I but but but but the micromanaging and like is this a management style you aspire to or recognize the kind of like just hovering over people's backs and then like saying

they order too much pizza no I think I'm more like Tom where I'm like just to say that uh we are down 15% year on year, but that's okay. The other thing, and this is I promise, I did not intend to make this primarily a, this episode primarily viewed through a baseball lens, but you did share Chris an article in the group chat that I thought was great about Bryce Harper watching the greatest about my life when he hit the home run in the biggest moment possible. And I was thinking about this when I was watching the first 10, 15 minutes of the

episode before the knives really started going. where to be in a writer's room like this, where you just have scenarios like, okay, Logan is menacing the newsroom and Tom and Greg are going to be talking about it. Or Logan, Shiv and Roman are watching a progressive news network go. It does remind me of Bryce Harper,

like sitting on a slider in, you know, representing the winning run in a playoff baseball game. It's like sometimes you just want to hit balls off a tee in the biggest moment. And it's the, just the quality and the quantity of the jokes. But also that sense of having watched the show for so long

where you were like, there were probably 18 alts. Oh, my God. And 16 of them were amazing. I bet them sitting around watching what is basically MSNBC had like 10, 15 minutes of footage. It's just incredible. This is inside baseball, but it's about politics. That's so confusing. And also, let me just say again for the people to cheap seats.

Like, you and I don't have to do scene work or hang out of craft services. with Jeremy Strong. So whatever he's doing is amazing. Yeah, I don't care if he's difficult. He's fucking great and he's making everyone else better. Like, it really, really, really elevates because he's doing the things that he's doing. And by the way, it's not like he's sitting around being like, oh, you know, this isn't Caucasian chalk circle in the round. He's like, my lines here are describing things as dukey, you know, but he's fucking bringing that character and all the other shit he did in his trailer to it.

It's great. It's truly great. excited where you see Aaron more yet again. How excited were you? I mean, this guy, we miss this guy. Just him being like doing like cab driver voice was just like as like his returned to glory. He was amazing.

I really like when the show gives us different glimpses of different personalities adjusting to ultra elite wealth. Yes. You know, what's different about them? What's the same about them? What they choose to do? How they choose to enact it. even just the casual reference of,

we've reserved a suite across the street. Like, how much did they drop just to hold a room that they're not going to set foot in is pretty great little details on the margins. Although I have to say, I know both of these guys are, we love them. I think they both are having the past listen to the podcast.

I did see someone online being like, cast Jason Manzuka says Stewie for one episode, you cowards. But he has to be Rafi from the league when he's doing it. Yeah, I couldn't help. That was floating in my mind when I watched this. and I all respect to both actors whom I adore. Okay.

The only other note I had here was just that there may not be a funnier scene in American television history than Tom and Greg trying to decide who's going to tell Carrie that she's terrible doing television news. But it's like this is the same thing again where it's just like you see, sometimes you can feel when writers' rooms are writing themselves into a corner or they're like, ah, shit. We put these guns in Walter's trunk last season because it was cool. And now we were going to have to spend the next nine, weeks figuring out what to do with them.

And then there's whatever the reverse of that is. So he's going to die and come back to life and then go back and save Jesse. But instead there's like, oh, this is the reverse of that. It's like, wait, we seem to have written ourselves into a situation where Tom and Greg will be in a room forcing each other to do something either wants to do. Yeah. And it's like, what a gift. What a real Palestine, but harder and more important.

What a joy. What a gift. You know, I feel like we have not fully riffed on them just in a, you know, in a, in a a bar or in a karaoke room. I know. It's really, really funny. What do you think would have happened? Like, is there an alt of the scene where obviously Logan comes to see them?

Do you think that there's footage of Connor doing Desperado? I hope so. Although the show has always been very specific in the songs that it has characters perform. You remember Kendall performing last year? Yeah, he raps, yeah. No, he raps in the first season, but doesn't he sing at his birthday? party. I don't remember the song. So I imagine there might be some B-roll, but I also think there was intention behind this. I thought you were going to say, is there footage of Brian Cox singing?

Doing New York York and then fucking off. I mean, I did recently see a clip of Brian Cox and my old friend Alan Cumming doing carpal karaoke singing Wannabe by Spice Girls together. So I feel like Cox, Cox has it in him. Can you even off the top of your head think of like which succession characters would have done which karaoke songs? Off the top of my head? No. But give me a minute. I can get the charticle together for you.

With the ringer hasn't done this yet? Why are you giving these ideas away for free? Just an ideas guy. So, okay, so let's bigger picture. You know, the show exists on such an elite tier that you can say comments like the one I'm about to make. And I hope it can be understood with the intent that it's given, which is this is not a criticism.

This is just an observation. I think the show does need to end. I don't want it to, but I think it does. We said that last week. Continue to feel that way. I always admire the way they break up the band and bring the band back together, but it's going to have diminishing returns

if they were to push it past this point. So we were coming up to the wedding sooner than I thought. I think that this was the one spoiler that I learned about the season going into the season, I think because our buddy David Jacoby saw them filming this wedding. Didn't he post this on Instagram? Oh, did he? But there's the Connor Willa Wedding seems to be coming next week.

People listening probably have seen A next week on Succession. You and I don't watch those. So that's coming sooner in the season than I thought. Succession loves a big party, loves a big event. What have these first two episodes suggested to you about what the end game looks like? Because the Pierce thing does feel like a misdirection. The board meeting has now been punted. what is the shape of it.

I think they're lulling us into a false sense of either confidence or concern trolling depending on what you want to look at it where it's just like, oh, are you guys just going to have like three meetings where you betray one another? And then at the end, someone gets chosen or doesn't? I think that the decision

to make this the final season, albeit it seems like kind of like in production already, or at least in the writing of it, that decision isn't one that's just like, I'm out of jokes. Like, that's because he wants to say something. So I feel like these first two episodes,

and I, if I bet if we went back and listened to every podcast about a second episode of Succession of a Season, we would find similar notes of like, so is this what you guys are doing? That's cool. I like that. That's nice. And then something happens and, like, all of our eyelashes fall off, you know?

I think that you're right. I think this goes back to this idea of the show is psychologically sound and has correctly presented and diagnosed. these people, their traumas, their deficiencies, how they operate, their behavior, and continued to point out just the awful karmic feedback loop that they exist in, where what you do to be alive or to prove you're alive or to feel alive is you poke the bear

and the bear growls, or the bear comes to a karaoke bar and apologizes and you chase the bear away until you poke it again. The card that's left to play is what if someone doesn't growl? What if someone doesn't poke back? And that doesn't necessarily mean Logan. But, you know, they, going back to that idea of, like, the sonar pings between them, like they need each other to respond. Like, even Connor goes along with it, you know, like, I mean, if you could just see, like,

the list of the things that Roman says to Connor within the first six minutes of them getting together after Willa has potentially left him to go bathe permanently in the East River, like, they are so outrageous. They're so outrageous. but he does the same thing that Kendall does when he's sitting in the Italian dust at the end of season three, which he's like, okay, all right, not now.

He provides the feedback. So what happens if at one point one of them doesn't? I'm not suggesting it's because they're taken off the board, but what if someone does? And I mean that in both sense, he's taken off the board. So that is a card left for the show to play

and I'm eager to see them play it. Yeah, I'm in no hurry. And I also feel like there's just like, there's just, something is going to happen. I have not watched ahead. I don't really watch the, I haven't really read that much of the sort of season previews that people did when they were writing off of, I think, the first four episodes. Just because I just kind of want to see it week to week like this. I think that's sort of the intention anyway. But yeah, it's hard for me to imagine

we're going to do like six more episodes of people being on like speaker phone calls trying to negotiate a price. Like that's not what this is ultimately going to be about. I also wondered, and this isn't something I necessarily want to see more of unless they have something to say about it, but I thought there might be more political kingmaking. I think that the timing is intentional that there is an election and we're pivoting more towards ATN. We know Justin Kirk is still in play in the world of the show. And Roman has been, we sort of, we didn't specifically call this out. Justin Kirk and Hope Dave is currently pulling HBO double duty on succession and Perry Mason. Yeah, they are there in the club. Remember the first thing I ever wrote for Grandland was the HBO recycling program.

Like once you're in, with that casting department, you are in. And they're certainly deserving of it. But we didn't specifically call out that like, it's not just that Logan says, I need you to Rome. And he's basically like, I need you to turn this state Republican channel into Aiton, right? Right. Like that's what you're going to be good at. And what's that going to do to Tom, you know?

Yeah. So the political part, I don't know what role it has to play, but I feel like it has a role to play. Greenwall is great to see you. We can wrap it up there. I think we've covered this episode to... Should we do this again next week? Do you think we should keep this up? I guess so. Wow. No, we are. We'll be back next Sunday, obviously. We have a show on Thursday, though. So don't get used to us not being your ears. We'll be back on Thursday. It might be Friday. I should tell you in Kyya that. Oh, yeah?

I think it might be Friday this week. Everybody cool with that? For any particular reason? I have a travel day. I don't know if you've seen my schedule. Oh, I thought maybe it was because there was like something airing Thursday night that you really wanted to like just sit with Mandalorian for full 24 to 36 hours or something like that? I love watching television and talking about it on this podcast.

So it's purely TV based. Okay. Andy, great to see you. Thank you so much to Kai McMullen for recording us on Sunday. We really appreciate it. And we will talk to you guys on Thursday. I'll turn in my manager's card and then you can go over the lineup. Okay.

Thank you.