The Watch - Breaking Down ‘Succession’ Season 4, Episode 6: "Living+"

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the latest episode of ‘Succession,’ "Living+." They break down how each of the kids continues to deal with their grief (1:00), the surprise success of Kendall's pitch for "Living+" (23:06), and the appearance that Logan Roy sort of makes in this episode (36:34). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessey, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season. And that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hater to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends. So make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one in three?

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I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch, a warehouse for the elderly. I'm Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Ringer.com. and joining me in the studio. Caviot, some are saying these two young Turks might just have what it takes to turn things around. It's Andy Greenwald! Ooh, that stings a little bit, though. Oh, man.

Andy, I have a pitch for you for this pod. Okay. Unbelievable growth. I'm done. I'm in. What else can I do? Because here's the thing about me. I live my life a certain way by a certain code.

And there's only one way to improve it. Make me feel like I'm on a cruise ship. Breathe Legionnaire's disease and or COVID into my feet. We're here to talk about Succession, Episode 6. Have you ever been on a cruise? No. Nor will I ever. I'm saying this on the record, on video.

If there's any indication that COVID did not happen really on this show, do they acknowledge COVID on this program? I don't think so, right? I thought you meant on this show. We've been doing our own research. We've got some questions. But they're just going all in on cruises and cruise-like opportunities in real estate. Yeah, because if there's a problem on a cruise ship, you toss it overboard.

That's been established. Very, very good episode. Yeah. Living Plus. Do you want to give it a, like, would you have a capsule review you'd like to throw out there before I recap it? You're limiting me to a capsule? A pre-capsule? A pre-capsule. Do you want me to just to recap it and then you could jump in?

I thought this was an outstanding episode. I thought that this episode was bitey, bitey for 60 minutes. And what's really remarkable about a show going all in and pulling out all the breaks in its rush to the finale is that bitey, bitey, draws blood. Yeah. And it draws blood that a longer running series or a series concerned about renewal or playing the long game could not do. And I thought some of the places that this episode went emotionally were not unexpected,

but kind of shocking and very affecting. So that's my tease from my feelings. Okay. Does that work for you? Because as we're learning from the characters of succession, emotion is a multi-pronged process in terms of expressing it and processing it. I know. I need to go schedule some.

grief right now, actually. I'm crying. I'm going to recap this episode. So Logan shows up, just as Hamlet's ghost is telling people to fuck off. The Roy's are in L.A. and the C.E. Bros. are still trying to fuck the Matson deal. And Shiv is playing

the middle between her brothers and Lucas. Waystar is introducing a new product called Living Plus, aka land cruises, a place to warehouse the elderly, as we said, Shiv accuses Ken and Roman of taking the deal, which they cop to in a really great scene in that conference room. As Ken and Roman

prepared to present the plan to create this integrated living situation, Kendall has a moment of manic inspiration. He doesn't see it as a retirement home for conservative news addicts. He sees it as a ramp to growth for the company, a way to bring in tech and pharma, et cetera, et cetera. The problem is nobody

else shares the vision, or maybe nobody gets the math. Either way, while Kendall is trying to break death, Roman is firing women left and right, first joy, the head of Waystar Studios. And then Jerry, after Jerry upgrades him for firing joy. He says, I need you to believe I'm as good as my dad.

And Jerry responds, say it or believe it. Dynamic Waystar duo shake up their leadership team. Grumble, grumble, quote, caveat. That's how Kendall spins the Jerry firing. The other half of this episode, outside of this sort of living plus element, is an incredibly affecting portrait of a marriage and crisis between Tom and Shiv. And they emerge on the other side of betrayal. as a power couple, maybe?

We can talk about that. And is this because of Tom's new radical honesty? Or is it because Shiv is looking for a port and a storm? I think it's because Richard Yates and Tom Wolfe were added to the writing staff this season. I just think they kept it really low pro. Speaking of warehousing the elderly. Speaking of Living Plus. Everything culminates with Kendall's big presentation.

I say Kendall because Roman Bales on Kendall at the last second. at Shiv's urging, by the way. And they are foreseeing a classic Kendall flameout, and it has all the makings of an L to the OG moment. And then Kendall fucking... He's Jimmy Butler's. He just sends you on his packing. He does a great job with this presentation.

He's honest, he's vulnerable, he's mildly funny, and he's quick on his feet. I can't believe he stepped on my Jimmy Butler thing. Did you have a Jimmy Butler? Well, I was like Logan is Jimmy Butler, and everyone else is the rest of the heat. Oh, okay. Yours was better.

No, but I'm trying to think of who's who on the heat now. Carl is Kevin left. They just brought him in from the cabs for the playoffs. Not even a troll job from Lucas Mattson can knock Kendall off his square. The crowd loves it. The press loves it. The street loves it. Roman loves it but hates it.

It's another opportunity pissed away for him. And we end with Schiff and Tom playing Kingmakers. And Kendall finally floating instead of sinking. First of all, I just want to tell our listeners that I thought that those were all, I thought your recaps were just from the dome, like Jay-Z. Now I see the penmanship. Well, you see me reading. I like it even better.

Well, no, I was checking my email. But I was very impressed by that. Did you mention Lucas Mattson's little Nazi tweet? I did. I said his troll tweet. I didn't identify it as Nazi-leaning. You know, I think I know ATN, our friends at ATN would disagree, but I think it's important to call out things like that.

Sure. You never know what would be found in discovery later on. I think that's right. I thought that this was a pretty conventional episode of Succession that was elevated to the upper upper atmosphere because of what this show is capable of on a week to week basis with the cinematography and the direction,

the music, the production design, the locations, and then, of course, the performance. The music was really, there were some different keys, different riffs on the main succession. Yeah, I mean this week, they're really nice. The last shot with him, with Kendall walking on the beach in Malibu, and just this swelling Nicholas Brutel theme

playing underneath of it. That is in 99% of shows just like a static shot with like maybe a needle drop or whatever and it just, it's frankly cinematic

and it makes this show when it's at a 75, it's at a 95. Jeremy Strong, like Ethan Hawken Training Day, isn't afraid to get wet. You know? He went right into the ocean.

Yeah. I was joking about Carl being Kevin Love because obviously Carl's been on the team longer and his offensive rebounding numbers are still strong. But I did want to start with Carl intentionally because I really want to examine what this show is doing in terms of taking advantage of the time that it has left, Living Plus. Yeah. There is a version of this show, just like there is a version of any highly successful

prestige drama, where Carl as Carl, as reliable punching bag, as funny cut to, is enough. and then there's a show that has no more fucks left to give or fewer fuck-offs left to give with Brian Cox mostly gone. And suddenly everybody has teeth. Everybody has agency. Everybody has a stake and everybody's fighting for their patch. And the scene where Carl grabs Kendall... He's like, I have your dick in my hand.

Yeah. And he begins with his usual, this is how he interacts with people. And then there's something behind it. Oh, yeah. And what's behind it is 40 fucking years of getting shit on. in the trenches and wanting your own pile and suddenly being bossed around by Kendall Roy. By Kendall Roy. And I was really struck by it, not just because, again, that's why you cast David Rashi or any

of the amazing actress, Jay Smith Cameron, who in, you know, 30-second facial expression deserves an Emmy, I think, for that scene. I do give Emmys away like Oprah gives away cars. But it's deserved. I want everyone to be happy. The comparison I was thinking of, and this isn't fair, because just because something is good, it doesn't mean you have to denigrate something else. But ATN would disagree.

But if you think about a character like Roger Sterling on Mad Men, who because of the, I guess we're going to do this another season, nature of that show, which, to be clear, is the nature of almost all television until relatively recently. Yeah. Did have some growth. We did get some emotional pathos. We got more levels to him, certainly as a relationship with Joan

and everything else went on in the background. But was pretty consistent. He was a role player character. He was there to do something every episode that was reliance. Yeah, and it was funny and it was charming and it hit and it always hit. And I was thinking about Roger Sterling when you saw Carl bear his fangs. And what's just below the surface of all of these characters who I think we get lulled into the same sense that the kids have been lulled into, which is that their job is to eat shit and get Advil for them. And it's not.

These are living people. Right. And Gatekeeper is gone. And Daddy is gone. And there's no protection anymore. And to do that in an episode. where Logan continues to be proven right that they are not serious people,

that they are essentially clowns driving this enormous corporation into the abyss was, I found it really powerful, I found it really striking, and I found it really affecting, in addition to being hilarious. Yeah, it's a Kendall episode, it's a Tom and Shiv episode,

but it's really an episode about grief. Dude, it's a Roman episode, too. Yeah, it is. I did not think it was a coincidence that in the days before this episode aired, we learned that Kieran Culkin and Sarah Snook we're changing their any eligibility to leads.

And you see that and you're like, okay, yeah, go for the breast ring. You know, throw your hat. Be like Tom Wams. If there's a ring, my hat is in it. Yeah. And then you see this episode and you're like, oh, they are the stars.

Yeah. And there's just more real estate for them because you're not doing half the episode or third of the episode with Brian Cox. But to the point about grief, you know, Shiv schedules are crying and is obviously in this very like

vulnerable place, but is probably doing, the most compartmentalization because there are so many shots of Sarah Stuck where she's making one face when no one else is looking and then makes a completely different face when she kind of emerges back into public.

There's a couple of shots with her with Tom where he says something to her and it really hits her as she's sort of staring into his chest. But when she looks up, it's like, oh, now I'm pretending to be a Hollywood kind of screwball comedy, Rosal and Russell Russell Vixen again. And it's like,

that's not who you really are right now, but it's because you're somebody who needs to grab 20 minutes in a dark conference room and cry is because you can't really show the world your face. And I think there's an extra level to that, too. I think that we've long thought in the show has borne this out that she is

smarter than her brothers. Like if they did the NFL draft test, you know, that like she would excel. Oh, yeah. Is that the S2? The S2? I don't think that she... It's come under a lot of criticism. I agree. No, it's problematic. Yeah. But again, I only watch ATN sports.

So for me it's pretty... So they're just like S2 results are in. And he failed. But that doesn't mean she's more competent at this. But I think that one of the important distinctions between her and her brothers is that they have, you know, a fucking Washington monument-sized tower of problems inside of them. I don't think they have secrets.

I think she's self-aware enough to compartmentalize and be aware of the secret she has, not just literal secrets like her pregnancy, which continues to exist, but her... As does her... her imbibing of alcohol. It does. Which is, you know, very European.

She could probably get away with that. It's fine. Her obstetrician is French. It's fine. But also that she is deeply sad about many, many, many things. And I think she knows that. Where I think Kendall thinks he's going to beast mode sadness. And Roman is so fucked up that he doesn't understand what's literally pouring out of him

in a almost hideously vulnerable way is this unattended stuff. I think that I do think this was an exceptional. Ayr Snook episode because of the mastery of the levels to do it. I did also want to ask, you know, yesterday when we recorded our pod with Damon Lindeloff and Tara Hernandez about Mrs. Davis, when we came into the studio, we were supposed to record, and Sean Fennessey was alone in there. Do you think he was scheduling his grief for the Aaron Rogers trade? For the end of the Zach Wilson era? Yeah. We should check in with him after we're done recording. Friends reach out to French. I think Roman also was obviously grappling with his grief by firing lots of people.

and essentially when he fires joy, it's partially because she's not showing an appropriate amount of deference and partially because she obviously senses the vulnerability or the kind of the opening to just twist the knife a little bit and be like, well, I can't really make hits when the most talented people in Hollywood don't want to work with this company because of your ties to Jared Minkin, right? And the conservative nature of this company in general.

general. And then when Jerry hits him with the you're not your father bit, he fires her. So he's basically reacting constantly to anybody questioning what his father would have done, whether or not he's his father, whether or not the thing that his father built will survive. It's also on a really deeper primal level. I mean, I'm sure we all have experiences either with people we knew as kids or even ourselves that like there's a moment sometimes in childhood games when everyone's playing and then suddenly someone isn't. Yeah. It's like, get the fuck off me. You're like, you know, Like there's something that's deeper that's not about that moment that comes roaring and pouring out. And it is pure it.

It is pure childhood. And that's what we've seen now three straight one-on-one, well, to what Kendall was there. What does he say when she's like, you fired her? And he's like, I didn't fire her. I said you're fired to her. Yeah. So we can put her in global. Yeah.

I mean, because it's also always worth saying that the satire of Holly Weird and how the business works and how people and the entitlement and the assumption. What does he call it? Fuck he would. But, I mean, he has this run where he's just like, basically you live in a segregated city zoned on top of a fault line. Good luck with that. Yeah. Clearly, he's not supporting Nithia for city council. Like, if he got into the weeds, he'd see if we've got a lot going on here.

But I've got a chuckle of all the kaya for that. A little L.A. City Council joke. Did we get a chuckle? Yeah. Okay. All right, we got a good one today. I think, yeah, it's an incredible satisfaction. of that and also of like Hollywood's just sort of,

we have a seat at the table with you to express our personal grievances and he's just like Macon's another piece of IP. I mean, it is cynical and it is, I think, disturbingly accurate. But in terms of how thin-skinned this boy is, how ill-suited to the rooms he's walking into and storming out of he is, it really messes with the viewer and fan of the show. Because, and I think we've alluded to this before, TV is a hypnotizing trap.

Like, you root for people that you spend time with. You just cheer for them, whether you like their stories or you like the actor or you like the lulls, whatever. You find yourself saddling up. And I don't think I'm alone to say that, like, you wanted better for these people, even though they're all monsters. You want better for them. And to see Roman flame the fuck out like this. Yeah. Was jarring, even if it was never surprising.

Isn't this also kind of the, I don't know if miracles is the right word, but isn't this sort of the, this is what I would say as like the benefit of why you would make a long-form prestige television show instead of a feature is that. So take, for instance, Wolf of Wall Street, which is almost as long as long-form television show, but Wolf of Wall Street faced similar criticisms that Succession sometimes faces of like, well, we're actually like almost like lauding and falling in love with monsters. I didn't personally have that problem with Wolf of Wall Street. A, I just thought it was like an incredible, like satirical comedy, but B, like, it moves so quickly that I don't think I was ever just like, I'm so into Jordan Belford. I hope he comes out on the other side, okay. But with succession, I think the reason why you have these moments of, against my better judgment, I am rooting for Roman to be okay, is because we spent so much time with him. And we've seen him in so many different kinds of moments in his life that it does give you the totality of a fictional person, right? Like, you kind of do see this guy.

He's the one who goes and looks at his dad's body. Like, we have seen him at his lowest. We have seen him at his craziest. We have seen him at his highest. And we've seen him at his most honest, which is when his brother sends him a deep fake of their dead father. And he starts listening to it like it's like, yeah, a message from beyond the grave.

He's touching the stove. Yeah. He's touching the stove. That's the only thing that makes him feel anything, and he's listening to it on a loop. Yeah. I mean, it's awful. It's awful.

And, and I, I, to run it back. It's like, he's like, Roman Roy has a little dick. Is that like, micro dick? Yeah. This is what Kieran Culkin has been building towards, you know. Yeah.

It's, it's also, this is something you sort of said at the beginning, right? Like, you have a long-form show where everybody has been by nature of the power structure a beta. And now everybody thinks they're in alpha. And not necessarily the case. No. Not necessarily the case.

The Roman one got me, the Shiv, should we do, which, Which sibling do you want to do next? I do think it's worth going through... The third one, Kendall. Connor. Yeah. Kendall.

Kendall used his Living Plus presentation as a eology. Yeah. And you could say it was an insincere one, or you could say it was an opportunistic one. Both of those things, probably Logan would have respected. He did cringe stuff. He did his weird offbeat, you know, keywords all seemed to click. Big shoes. And he went off script, but he found something on that stage where it was,

both, you know, he was able to convince people about his importance. And I think that more than being his dad, like he's always wanted to see himself or be seen as an important thinker and like an idea, a guy who like disrupts and changes things. And, you know, as soon as he starts talking about like, it doesn't make any sense when he's talking about it when he's like, this is it. We have to get our tech guys to look at this and the hockey stick and brings that poor accountant Pete in. and it's just like, we can double it, we can change the numbers, we can change the numbers. And, you know, I think at that moment where he's like, if I could have had another year with my dad to say what went unsaid, that's priceless.

It's like, well, there you go. You know, like people get that shut up. It was also incredibly sad because he's wearing a little flight outfit. Yeah. Like a real boy. You know, it's like going up to see the pilot and getting wings and thinking you're ready to fly a plane. It reminded me a little bit, too, of like, this is, there's many examples. of this. But like remember when when Tiger Woods decided to become a Navy SEAL? You know, it's just like I'm gonna

remember that. I'm gonna go do this now and it's totally chill and cool and I'm fine with my father dying. Like it's all fine. Yeah. A lot of that energy. Also the really fucked up codependence of their psychological traumas in the sense that Roman is behaving like a lunatic. Roman needs to be removed from power immediately and maybe hugged. Like he even asks to hug his family, which was unprecedented. And he refers to it as the, what is it, the grabby, touchy huggy thing? Cool.

Totally fine and normal. And when he is called on it or caught or talking to Kendall, Kendall's response, like if you could do a super cut and if you want to do the Logan deep fake technology on Roman, you could just take everything Roman said about firing people and how he's just behaved and just replace it with the words,

should we get some more Coke? Right. Like, that's Kendall's response. Yes. It triggers everything Kendall wants to hear because it makes him the big boy, the bigger brother, who can tell him it's okay. But it also plugs into what you're speaking to, which is not that Kendall wants to be a steady steward of his father's legacy or this company.

He wants to be radical. He wants to be dangerous. Yeah, every decision can be spun into this idea that it's like, you know, exactly like the joke that I made earlier about how they're going to spin this. It's just like leadership says this, but, caveat, caveat, could these guys do this, you know? And all of this, with the goosing the markets and tricking the numbers, it is all a game. Yeah.

And it's a, in that, Kendall and Lucas are similar because he's just like, oh, I have an atomic bomb in my pocket that can move markets. It's called my phone. I'll make a little Nazi joke and then I'll delete it. Like, it's just a game. It's just a game. But I think that, you know, the emotions that run through the Roy is a little bit different than, what's going on in Scandinavia. I thought that with the C. Bros.

I thought it was pretty interesting how Roman is acting almost more erratically than Kendall throughout this episode. And then gets to that point where Shiv is like, don't you want to back away from the bomb before it goes off? And I think Roman's always looking for one of the two or both of them to accept him and to bring him in and be like you're on my team. It's all he wants from anyone.

Yeah. Jerry could have done it. She'd played that moment differently. And so Shiv being like, you can see the look in his eye, this is going to be another classic meltdown. And then the really brilliant part about that whole sequence of Kendall doing the presentation is that it plays not only on the fictional characters' expectations of what's going to happen to Kendall when you put him under the spotlight, but ours.

Because we have seen multiple times, with the exception of the press conference, when he shows up and Shiv's his dad, you know, at the end of, was that season two? almost any time Kendall's had to make any kind of public appearance or statement, he goes down in flames. And this time, he almost used his downward velocity to bounce back up and go up, you know, up into the atmosphere. It was maybe the most human moment of his fictional televised career life when he's just like, wouldn't, doesn't that sound good? I know it does to me. He did the thing that public speakers are supposed to do. Big shoes. He found empathy. He found a human angle into it, even though this product is in.

sane. Yeah. And hilarious. Like the scene where he and Roman talk about how they should maybe like, you know, disrupt death. Like it's like one size fits all. This isn't really working for them. I don't you want to come back as like a turtle.

It's a masterpiece of the type of writing that happens on the show. But like that. So, yeah, so he succeeds. Although what that means at this point is a little bit obscure. the sense that he moves the markets for the company, but Lucas Madsen, who's paying a premium for the company, doesn't want this. Well, I think what he's trying to do is price the stock too high for Lucas to afford. Yes. Right. Right. So, yeah. So he succeeds potentially under his own, his own plan with fraudulent numbers. He then goes to Malibu. And a fraudulent doctored video of

his father. Yeah. Yeah, that too, that people seem to love. You know, as someone who's been in the editing room with like hardworking editors. I've never tried Greg's method. Yeah, but you have to do it. The technology won't allow, but you have to. Yeah. I should try that next time. Um, so he ends up, you know, there are a couple times, one of the major successes of the show is that it makes being super rich look kind of banal and dumb. I will say that the idea of speaking, doing some sort of public speaking on a studio lot and then just being able to be in a private beach in Malibu, like, made being rich seem pretty good. Yeah.

That was the first time I was like, oh, okay, maybe there's a little walmscans in me after all. So he uses his actorly foot to dramaturgically write number one. Right. I actually did not understand that. I don't know whether I have Kendall's symbol of dyslexia, but I was like, I don't really see, you know, there's a brief moment. I'll say very, very, like, split second brief.

I was like, suicide note? In the same. I mean, that is, I don't think it's going to last. No, but Kendall being in bodies of water does not usually bode well. Right. Did you think for a moment he was drawing like the eye of Sathulu and it was a true detective? Dude, if it was a tie-in? Come on.

Come on. It's all one shared universe. Yeah. And yeah, but I think the twinning of him in water was intentional. Yes. The last time we saw this was the penultimate episode of season three. Yes. Crucially, there was a lack of Limoncelli.

this time, which I think really is what swings the dial in terms of whether it's a successful swim or not. It's interesting. He did succeed by his own standards, right? Like, you know, there's that moment where he's just like, oh, I don't remember any of it. It was a blur. Then he has this moment on the beach and, you know, traditionally in film and in, I guess, cultures and religion, washing yourself, like purifying, like you've being reborn. That's all there in the water and in the waves. So what are we going to see from Kendall the next episode? Where does this... I've learned not to count on it.

I've learned not to assume that anything that happens in a single episode of succession dictates what's going to happen for all future episodes of succession. Although arguably we are getting to the real home stretch here with the final four apps. 7, 8, 9, 10. Yeah. So I just wanted to mention one more thing, which is the way that they shot and orchestrated and cut between Kendall's on-stage performance. and the reception of that performance among the family members.

You know, and they're all sort of be willing, they're all willing at first to just be like, this is so bad, I can't even watch, oh, you're watching, and what does Greg say?

It's like you're not going to have to follow him at all. You just have to clean up the blood. Yeah, everybody is ready to bury him. And then as he pulls out of the spin, everybody is like, this is being received really well. And Roman realizes that he lost his opportunity.

He missed yet another. other opportunity. Yeah. And a series of missed opportunities, including going to his father the night before his father's death and being brought back into the sort of inner circle there, where it's just, he's always a day late and a dollar short. For all of it. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. He never, I mean, none of them get what they want, but that was particularly brutal. And then meanwhile, Shiv's sort of orchestrating, she's communicating with Lucas, who's tweeting about this performance that Kendall's giving. and first she's like if somebody wants to throw a spoke in the wheel that might work but then she goes back out and is like you may be drawing too much attention to this was that a protection of Kendall or was that because you're actually now everybody is watching this and talking about it because you tweeted about it.

I think also you know I'm not sure like calling in a fake bomb threat or having the lights go out is in some ways more tame than having the potential buyer of your company just lightly drop some Nazi stuff. Yeah. I think that might have been it. Like that that's, can't really walk back the cat on that one so much. So I also... He's very European. He's very European.

Also, just a cool move for CEOs to be just checking Twitter. Yeah. Live from the stage. I bet Elon loved that content. I can't get over the arc of Kendall in this episode because we were talking about Roman's repeated internal satellite explosions throughout. The coming in, like the flying to L.A. and having the senior staff gather

and like, did you see the room that Shiv was weeping in was called the Palo Alto room? I didn't. I really hope they were in like Sausalito or something for the big confab. Just to show up and be like,

that guy's crazy. Yeah. We don't like him. And like, it's so bad. They're so clearly lying. It's such insane, fail sun shit. I love how the end of almost every meeting

or conversation, they're just like, well, it's just basically like, let me have a think on that. Yeah. Or it can be talked out of anything or just lie at the end of it. It's just so good.

But they're just lying, and Kendall is complicit. And then at the end of the episode, suddenly he's writing number one in the sand, and Roman is just left in the dust. They both fucked that up. Yeah. Like, horrifically so. And Sarah Snook's, I mean, the first moment I remembered she was going to be elite actress was her face in that scene.

Yeah. When not only is it just clear and she's having the time of her life, but that, like, it's not just because Mattson crashed and criticized her PJ in the opening scene, it's that they've been doing this shit since she was a kid. She knows intimately how fucking stupid they are in a way that even like Jerry and Frank and Carl can't imagine. So let's, she calls him on that. That's a very good entry point into talking about Shiv and Tom.

Yeah. Because Tom says at one point to her, like you're basically, you're playing all the, all the sides here. Like, are you sure that's going to work out for you? I don't know that she necessarily ever pays for it in this episode. I don't know if she ever will. or if that's really like more indicative of like this new language that these two people speak with each other,

which seems to be just this like kind of radical transparency to some extent, at least with Tom. I find it fascinating that Shiv always seems to be coming in at the end of or catching the back half of the disgusting brothers conversations. She's never there for like, oh, this is what you're really like. So she's left to sort of imagine Tom as this like dashing playboy. And then Tom's just basically like, well, I'm an open book. What do you want to know about?

You know, what do you want to know about me? And they have basically these escalating levels of intimacy where at first they have a kiss at a drinks, a cocktail party. Then they sleep together. And then at the end, in a weird way, I find that the SUV and them sort of making plans for hosting an election party and deciding strategy is the most intimate thing these people are capable of. Tom's speech or, yeah, kind of soliloquy to her. about money is the single most honest thing anyone's ever said

in four seasons of the show. And it was striking not just because it took this long for that to happen and what it means and how revealing it was. But it was striking because I think that Shiv's armor

has been what she thinks is honesty. But it's brittle and it's gamesmanship. And it's a language that she was modeled for her by clearly every rich old fuck in her life, maybe even her mother too.

And she defaults back to it increasingly because it's sexy and maybe a little fun, but it's also safe. And it gives her the power because she thinks that Tom can't hang. Because fundamentally, right, Tom can't. She's wealthy. He's maybe has reached the level of rich. He's not comfortable in it. He's a few stock mistakes away from being Hugo.

Yeah. So she's playing 3D chess, but he goes 4D. Because what he hits her back with is actual honesty. And it cracks something open. When they laugh about whether she would follow him for love, we've reached a new country here. We're past all of it. We're past the like, could we have an open marriage?

You know, could I be a little less sad? We're not negotiating anymore. They're Thelman Louise and they've just jumped off. Yeah. Sorry, I won't spoil. that. They didn't jump. They were safely seatbelted. But they are now pushed by the patriarchy, actually.

Thank you. Is this rewatchables? That would be amazing if Bill went sudden death with Van Dam to Thelma Louise. We are now in a different place with them. I've never seen characters like that. And also just that characters behave that way.

Everyone's like, oh, it's so gosh to talk about money. And I think people with money think that. But Tom being like, I like my watches. Yeah, because she's essentially saying, how could you have betrayed me with my father at the end of season three, essentially. And he's like, basically lays out the scenario in which, you know, Shiv has nothing but safety net.

Yeah. There's, Shiv can be completely, like, you can be Connor and be completely outside of the family circle and still get hundreds of millions of dollars to run a vanity presidential campaign. Tom doesn't have that luxury. No. If Tom gets divorced from Shiv or if he gets fired from ATN or whatever, And the funny thing is is that like, Shiv's just sort of like, why did you betray me?

This is a guy who offered to go to prison for Logan Roy. Yeah. You know, this is a guy who'll do anything to stay that close to the flame. And honestly, though, what I saw in that moment

when she joins him on the bed and they're laughing was for the first time I saw them as two individuals, not as an entwined set of pre-nup and expectation and disappointment. They were meeting again

as kind of equals for the first time. And that potentially not to be the guy wishing for romance here on this very, very bleak and cynical show, but that could be a real foundation for them. It's not to everyone's taste, how they do it, but he didn't need her anymore. And he admitted that. And maybe that would allow her to admit that he offers something that she might need to,

which is there is no entanglement. Yeah. Maybe there's freedom in her not needing him. Maybe that makes him the most valuable thing in the world to her. Well, then there's a thing that's unsaid, which is the fact that she is carrying his baby. And she hasn't... This is one of the funny things that's a little bit of a side effect of the way that they've chosen to roll this season out or at least structure this season where every episode is a day. Yeah, which was clarified for us.

I think we were talking around that last. I think I was like, oh, I wonder when... They're very jet lagged, so you have to imagine that they're very tired. It's like, well, this is going to be the seasons or get used to it. Yeah. But for some reason, having a full two episodes, because she finds out at the beginning of five that she's pregnant, correct? Uh, was it five or four?

Well, she's known for a day or two, essentially. I think it was the beginning of four. I think it was before they gathered at the apartment. Okay, so it's three days that she's kind of known that she, well, she knows she's pregnant for a little while, but she's known that the baby is, you know, doing okay. Yeah. So it seems almost in the experience of watching the show

that it's been in eternity since she has gotten this information and still not told anybody and this is a show where nobody keeps any secrets but I guess like I wonder whether you do you think that her also like maybe opening the door back up to Tom also has something

to do with the fact that they have she has she's carrying a child well again I think that she's holding something for herself is a generous way of looking at and I was saying before I do think she's the only character capable of keeping secrets or compartmental And I think that also has to do a lot with being a woman in this in this world of the show.

She's not going to give this information to anyone as long as it's currency. You know, this is a pie in the sky. Maybe there's some humanity in these people take on this. This might be proven totally wrong. But I think the best case scenario is she is keeping this unborn child from the battlefield of this family. Right. And of the marketplace writ large, you know. And in a way, the place that you, metaphorically speaking, the place that she would like this baby to be born into is the trailer park that Tom is talking about, maybe a bespoke one, like glamping.

But you know what I mean. Yeah. So I don't think you can disentangle her steps back towards Tom from the pregnancy, but I do think you're right to point out that she is keeping that for herself, as is her right, as she should at this moment. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Van Duol, predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points,

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But I want to bring Brian Cox up because he does make an appearance in this episode. The green screen, yeah. He had mentioned in some interviews that he had done some stuff. He did interviews? You have to look really hard. They kept that quiet. You have to have a J-Store to find them. You know, like you really have to get into the libraries.

But no, he talked in some interviews about shooting some flashbacks. scenes or that he was going to make another appearance. I don't know if this is what he was referring to or not. But, you know, it was funny to have him emerge as this spectral presence and not miss him, per se, although I do as a performer and as like a character on the show. But it was almost strange to have like, that's, that is the foil. You know, he is still the tension because I do think that. these kids and their relationships with one another,

the siblings is so fluid that it's kind of like, it was almost like going back to a world that didn't exist anymore to see Logan kind of hovering over these people driving them all insane. It was really interesting, and in some ways it could have been kind of a risky choice

to bring him back relatively quickly. I mean, he's not back, but to even have his face and presence on the show. I thought it was really successful because it communicated what he has become to these people, maybe what he always was, which is not a real person. Certainly not like a potential source of emotional reprieve or hope or anything that Roman is still carrying inside of himself about his father.

It felt like, you know, what is the name of the character in the Parks Division that they have the like, it's a Roderick or something? It's like they're Mickey Mouse. Oh, it's Dodderick or something? Yeah, right. Right, because it's in the tweet. And there's a clip of, there's an image of like one of the posters of like some movie. That was his role in the Investors Day of like, a beloved piece of IP.

Yeah. To say, fuck off or ha ha, or like, let's make money. And that's the engine for everything that they do. And I thought that was really interesting, how immediately reductive it was.

There was no attempt. And this ties in, I think, to the overall storytelling and psychological project of the show. But, like, it's not any ghost in Hamlet.

He's not some major driver or orchestrator from beyond the grave. He's reduced to tropes and to, he's IP. Yeah, well, for pretty much this entire show, especially after the first season,

maybe midway through the second, because Kendall's really, really attached to him for much of that post-wedding time after the end of the first season. I feel like these kids don't really get to spend very much time with him.

You know, like, I don't really get the impression that they're like, they have like these awkward family functions and these meetings and these meetings and these gatherings, but they have been in so much turmoil over the course of this series, whether it's these hostile takeovers, what's going to happen with this deal, that deal, this person's flying here, what part of the Balkans is he in today or Croatia or whatever? And you get moments like the boat episode or whatever when they're on the yacht. I mean, that's not pleasant.

They're all trying, they're all singing for their supper and trying out for their future jobs. No one still living on this show, whether it's one of the children or whether it's one of the trusted C-suite executives for decades, ever had a moment as casually intimate with Logan Roy as Colin's security guard did at an Upper East Side Diner in episode. I don't think he's ever been as nice to anybody as he was to Colin. Not in years. And that sucks. I think it also is true that when someone is that powerful or that rich or that much the center of, gravity, no one ever has any real time with them. Even if you think that's your old friend and you haven't seen them in a while or whatever,

that's how it is with Sean now. I know. That's why I didn't walk into the room. We just closed it quietly and backed away. The polarity is forever change, right? But I think it's a really good observation because every single thing that they think they miss about their dad is imagined. Everything is what they always wished would happen.

And they were playing out the string. And then he did a very undead thing and fucking died. Right. and didn't close the deal with them, let alone with Matson. And, you know, the only thing that they can do is to do things that they think their father would either do or approve of. And that ultimately amounts to fucking each other over or fucking over the American public.

Add one more piece, because you've got to play a little bit of Oedipus as well, which is or to spite him, right? Because some of it is, and it's a pretty toxic brew, but it's the two things you said plus and or, poke the bear, piss him off. Shock him. That actually does sort of dovetail nicely into the sort of more predictive part,

which is, I think that the coming episodes are pretty clearly going to be about the election. You know, we haven't seen Justin Kirk on yet as Jared Mankin, but he's been in like the coming on succession this season. And we've been talking about it. Yeah, exactly. And I note with interest that the seventh episode

or the eighth episode is called America Decides. Hmm. Yeah, it's still unclear what that's going to be about. But thank you for that. So I think a lot of that stuff will come into play. And what, how much do these kids who probably, well, Romans mildly fascist, but, you know, or he looks at everything as content. But Kendall and Shiv clearly see themselves as a little bit more. I don't know what Kendall does. Kendall's like, yeah.

You know what? I think Kendall would be really interested in Andrew Yang's candidacy. Like no labels, man. Yeah. That's true. Shiv thinks of herself as a more progressive human. Sure. in some level.

So how does Shiv manage the ATN debates, you know, in the ATN election? I'm really curious about it because it's a huge opportunity to do what the show is doing anyway, which is can any of these people be human, is being human incompatible with being a business person? Yeah. Similarly, like, what does this mean to them on some level? You know, it's something, this show is not one where you watch and you're like, I wrestle with that in my daily life. too, I mean, except for the interpersonal stuff, which, well, not a one-to-one is relevant to all of us.

But the idea of like, I recycled, man. Chris, I recycle. I separate plastics, you know, I do that. Do I think it's making a difference? I don't know. I'm going to ask Nithia Ram, you know, I'm going to ask my city councilwoman, but I don't know. You think she has the answer? I hope so.

But my point is that feeling. Do you want to explore this a little bit? No. Where do you think it goes when you separate it? I think it's just something I should tell the people who listen to the podcast, they'll think I'm a better person. But you're worried that it's just like, am I just putting this in a different? No, I mean, because I drive an electric car unlike you, so I know I'm going to heaven.

So I'm good. But the reason I bring that up is because like that's small. For supporting the people of Texas and West Virginia. And gas prom. Yeah. I think on a small level, that feeling of like, what am I contributing? What am I doing? Yeah.

Is when you're at the complete private jet level. that's how these people feel, right? Like, it doesn't really matter to them as president. It's why COVID wasn't on the show. That's why Roman doesn't care what the movies are. He's just like, I'm just going to dump a ton of money on you. And all I need for you to say back to me is, thank you, Roman, may I have some more? I'm going to make hits.

None of it matters. And when you're at that velocity, how far do you have to dip before the first thing matters? Yeah. Before the first thing stings. And maybe losing the father was the first thing that matters. And that there's a ripple effect from that. But we're not sure. and, you know, that's one of the interesting things about the show

anytime they interface with people who have any muscle memory at all of things mattering. And, you know, heads of studios are in a different stratosphere than podcasters, but she's closer to planet Earth than Roman is. Yeah. So it's interesting. By the way, we should shout out to Annabeth Gish. Great. Just I don't know if she's coming back, but that was, if not what a Dionne Waiter's performance for her.

It was a great performance. And also, you know, there's a... When people write what they actually know, it can go one of two ways. And you and I have talked. Wire season five. We didn't love it for some of those reasons. But having the one-on-one in the studio commissary that has been completely emptied out for this one meeting where they're not actually dining was so good. He does a hand gesture during that meeting where he is essentially saying with his hands and face, I'm done here.

I don't want to eat. I'm not going to go through with the sort of pageantry of us sharing a salad together here. Like, I'm getting up and all you have to do is just like kiss the ring. Just stop this. Yeah. It's so, what is, what does Jerry call him? She says, like, you are a weak king in an interregnum? Yeah.

And she's very candid about the idea that your father saw the comet coming of tech. And that this is like, it's like make your arrangements. Here's the thing about Jerry. But I don't know if Logan thought that. It does, I don't, we don't know. It was telling, and maybe we'll never really fully understand, that he did sell his company. He agreed to sell his company, the thing that he was never going to do, something made him feel old. And whether it's like Mattson's, you know, kind of like weird, sad boy in cell energy, or it's like just looking at the numbers, something did.

And something profound happened. Regardless of his intention, Jerry's generally right. It doesn't matter. She's now been fired twice in one half season. Yeah, exactly. But she's right. But, oh, well. Anything else before we go?

Lorene Schofaria directed a really good episode. She always does. That shot of Roman on the back of the golf cart, and then it looks like she's shooting it from the front of a golf cart behind. It's just, those are like little transitions. You don't need them to be that good, and they're just great. Did you see she was in the episode? No, what did you play?

She was the director stopping Logan on the tape. Oh, was it? Asking him for one more. I wasn't sure if that was supposed to be Kerry. I thought it sounded like Carrie, but it was Lorene Schafarian. I didn't know that. See, this is why you get from E. I'm here for value.

So in minute 53, you're going to drop that IMDB factoid. How did you get that? So what I did, and I realize most people don't have access to this, is I watch the credits after the episode. And at the very end of the guest stars... I have to stop. As soon as... As soon as it says Associated...

by, I start fucking writing my recap. I'm coming up with all these prompts for you. How many drafts do you do? So many. I perform them for my wife.

She says, do you have a podcast? Like Gene Cousin out? You do the whole thing. Like three hour, one person, one person show. I get it.

I get it. You know what? Here's my take. You want me to wrap it up in the last minute? Sure. Pretty good show. Yeah.

Good show. Yeah. I like talking about it. This thing is really, you can tell it's really, it's in control of its instrument. And even when it has an episode like, like this, which I think all succession episodes are capable of like just going up up a level

on the third act of for the fifth act of their episodes. Even when it's like, hey, wouldn't it be funny if Roman had to run a Hollywood studio? It's like, dude, I would have watched 10 more years of this, but I'm so glad that we're like ending on such a strong, strong note. Yeah, because there's no comebacks from this. I think, I think your point is exactly the right one. Roman's Holly Weird Follies is a season of the show. Oh my God. But it never could be a series. But it never goes to that place that this went to in one scene.

You can't come back from that. I mean, obviously, there's episodes to come. But it's playing with real stakes. It's throwing real blood. It's cool. All right. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing us today. We'll be back on Thursday with a trip through TV. Yeah.

Yeah. We're passionate about TV. So you feel you're a little nervous about all the TV? No, I'm not like on top of most of it. So we'll do Barry. We'll do... I want to talk about Dead Ringers with you.

I haven't finished it, but I want to talk about that. How far into it are you? I mean, as of taping time, I've watched one. Might watch more. You never know with me, though. You know what I haven't watched?

How many Emmys you've given it so far? Oh, tons of Emmys. Mostly the ones they give out the night before. Yeah. But, you know, they still count. They look good on the mantel piece. Can you give Retrovis two Emmys for this show? She deserves 10 Emmys for the show.

Oh, 100 foot weight? 100-foot wave, Barry, which is the best thing on TV right now, I think. Damn. Drop it in the 59th minute. I don't know where we're at, Kaya. And I haven't watched that Apple show about French and Japanese people drinking wine. It's like I'm saving that for myself. Yeah, you should. I should treat myself better.

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