The Watch - Breaking Down 'Succession' Season 4, Episode 8: "America Decides"

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Chris and Andy break down the most recent episode of 'Succession,' "America Decides." They talk about if this episode—and show—can still be entertaining even when it gets too close to reality (1:00), how this episode really showed that the Roy kids have no moral bottoms (30:51), and some of the more light-hearted moments of the episode (44:33). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch, an insurgent podcast, Unfairly, maligned as extremists by the coastal masturbation factory. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, his digestive system is part of the Constitution. It's Andy Greenwald! You on the Wams Gans diet? That was amazing. Cocaine and wasabi, man. That's how we do elections in this country. In every orifice possible. Andy, I love this episode. I can't wait

to talk to you about it. You seem shook one about it and I love it. You know, we're just two snowflake libtard cucks. Brother, I'm like king eunuch of Cuck Mountain? What does he say? Here's a thing. Yeah. I'm the problem. Hi. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. Yeah. So

I found this episode excruciating to watch. Yeah. That is not a comment on this quality. Perhaps, actually it is. It's probably a commendation of its high quality. I am wishing a little bit. Like usually, you know, people, some people maybe tune into us as soon as they're done watching. That would be very nice. Yeah.

But often we record with a little bit of breathing room. You know, like we've walked out of Ringer HQ. Processed. We've declared some winners. You know, we've made the call. Mm-hmm. And then we sleep on it. And then we talk.

Sure. I watched this episode. We get Darwin in to crunch the numbers. Yeah. I wish we had a Darwin. What a name. That's kind of Kaya. Yeah.

Yeah, I just watched it this morning and I'm shook up. Yeah. I think that's the goal. This episode, America decides, which it did not, because it was decided by three maniacs with father issues is about the election. Just briefly to kind of give people a context, it's been a thread throughout this season,

mentioned a lot, but obviously in the third season, we had a lot more insight into the horse trading that goes into picking at least the Republican nominee. Remember what it takes was the sort of dog and pony show where we're sort of first really introduced to Mencken and Romans sort of disturbing, fascination with Mencken, who is played by Justin Kirk in an amazing performance, and is kind of

this philosophizing, uh, hard-right, like, professorial, but also like super racist guy who quotes H sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And Mankin is in the polls in the show. Professorial like Liberty U. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Um, University of the Streets. As we get to election night, Mankin is trained. the Democratic nominee Jimenez by a couple of points. And we could tell by his first appearance on the show that he would be back a lot. Yeah, right. And as election night starts, you know, all hell breaks loose, basically. We're given a very, I would describe this as the most, the thick of it episode of succession yet, the thick of it being the show about British politics that Jesse Armstrong worked on with

Armando Ayanucci before succession. And that series was very famous for a lot of, like, you just pandemonium in an office setting, people running, slamming doors, calling five different phones at once, having secret meetings, those secret meetings then immediately being divulged. And I thought that the mechanics of this episode of succession

were very thick of it in the best possible way. On the flip side of that, you are essentially looking at the nightmare that has engulfed our democratic system in this country. And I think it was also an amazing, Hey, just so you know, this is who you're, like, rooting for kind of episode from Jesse. Like, yeah. He wrote it.

And I thought, any residual kind of feelings people had about whether or not they're, like, cheering for or who do you want to have come out on top or who's kind of like your fave here? It's hard to get up in the morning and be like, I'm a Roman guy. I mean, you know, after Crystal knocked, you know, if all bets are off. Yeah. I mean, these are despicable, pathetic, weak monsters who are actively ruining the world. And they always have been that. Yeah, for the sake of good TV.

For the sake of one night of good TV. Yeah. This was in many ways what this entire series has been aiming for, and it's reached that place with two episodes to go. Which was to almost, and we've commented on it. this in terms of the aesthetics of the show, in terms of the production of the show, and in terms of the storytelling of the show, to take these characters who are so walled off and siloed from, quote-unquote, real life, that we can poke at them and laugh at them and examine them almost as if they're behind glass in a museum, because they are so far removed from anyone's actual life, and their

interests and their follies are just preposterous. But contra Roman, I don't think it's true that nothing matters. Things happen. And there is an effect. And there is a trickle-down effect. And you prove that by donating so thoughtfully to Amy McGrath's campaign. Yeah.

Well, I think we're still counting some ballots. You know? I just think Mike S.B. has a shot the third time. Sure. That's what I'm committed to. I'm sure I'm just going to get six more texts off that one. Look, it was really hard to watch, not because I had a particular rooting interest in America's favorite young fascist. It was particularly because, and I was thinking about this, like, what tends to be the trip-wire, what tends to trip things up in art or entertainment when it gets a little close to reality? Yeah.

I wanted to ask you about this. Yeah, and so one of the things that I think is the problem is when you have programs like extrapolations, on Apple TV Plus, for example. Or, I mean, we always pick the same straw men punching bags, and I apologize, because these are noble pursuits. You know, we often mention the last season of The Wire, too. And I think what we find a little bit jarring about those shows is that they are, they come, they begin from a place of earnestness.

They are, in a sense, polemics, you know, that some people are good and circumstances are bad, and why is no one paying attention to this? Why aren't we more aware? Why aren't we more aware of bad things happening and good people are being silenced? And I think that that can be jarring because in our lived experience donating to Act Blue daily. For instance. Just hypothetically. Or like being out in Maricopa and just making sure everything is going according to plan, right?

Just eyes on it. You know what I mean? Just watching. Arms folded from the corner. Just giving up very neutral vibes. We're wearing a crisp white shirt tucked into slacks. Yes, depleted khakis. It's fine.

Can it right be too, bourgeois? Who could say? That our lived experience doesn't often track in terms of pure good or pure bad or that there's forces who are doing their best with earnestness and malign forces. What this show does so excruciatingly

is just turn a camera on the rotten to the core cynicism of everything. That rings true. that there is this like, what is Kendall say? Does the poison drip down? Does the poison trip through? I'm misquoting it. But it's when he was asking,

and honestly, probably the most cliched prestige TV moment that the show is really done is this like, am I a good person, am I a bad person conversation that he has with the Shiv? Which is really saved by the fact

that they're both lying to one another. Yeah. Well, I mean, I want to talk about that scene specifically, and we'll get to it. I think when we talk about more of the emotional heft of the episode. But that really the way terrible things happen in the world is enough smart people standing around going,

that's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. All I'm doing is just telling another person something that someone told me to do. Or enough people who are in the situation that Jess and Greg find themselves in at the end of the episode, which is a really interesting scene, I thought. In an episode of brilliant storytelling choices, elevating Jess, who is played by a really strong actress, and Julianna Canfield is her name.

She was on Why the Last Man? She's been on a lot of things. She doesn't get scenes like that often. No. And what we did was we went from literally upstairs to downstairs for a moment. And these are the people who history will not necessarily remember, the books that Gabriel Sherman at Vanity Fair write about the infamous Minkin election, like probably won't talk about their role in it.

But that was a human moment. Right. And it's even that idea, it's like, I thought what they talk about in that scene seems to be like, you know, Greg is basically this bad man. He's not, yeah. Greg not going downstairs is not going to stop Minkin from winning the election or being declared the winner of the election. But they almost for a second are like, do we take a stand here?

Like, do we just sort of like, you could always wait for a minute and not do this? And you know, Tom's right behind him. Tom is... No, this is the modern condition. Like, if the wheels are greased, like, what does stopping, what does slowing things up do? What can any of us actually do? History isn't made... I mean, I feel like history isn't made by like Sienna Miller saying the right thing to a whale that talks in Merrill Streep's voice. It's not made that way.

Well, you know, we can circle back. That's TBD. But it is made by 10,000 seemingly banal or benign decisions, right, that lead to this suddenly inescapable moment. I mean, Roman is the famous, like William F. Buckley thing about conservative standing on the battleman's yelling stop. Right? Like he's standing up there with a bullhorn and a fire hose saying go, go, go, go, go. Yeah, I mean, like the actually, there's a great line where I think Tom says to the kids, the siblings, as they're sort of invading the newsroom. He's like, generals aren't supposed to be on the battlefield.

Like, you know, there's always like a rule that Logan had that we stay out of like the news gathering. Now, obviously that probably could be in Logan's day, switched by just calling Sid and saying like, I want this. I mean, we were in the room with them in what it takes in season three, where they essentially just pick Mencken. There's no democratic process. There's no, they're just deciding between the vice president and Salgado and Mencken. And he's just like, we're going to go with him because Roman has convinced me that he is a T-Rex. He's going to do blockbuster business.

And when they decide at the end to pick this guy, not only is it rooted in the trauma of losing their father, but it's also rooted in he's good television. And he'll do the thing that they wanted the deal. And, you know, they're just, it's incredible the weakness in these characters. Kendall especially, and we should go through the siblings. But like, they are like the rest of us being like, there are guardrails. The markets will hold the edge. Why?

Why? Right. There were guardrails at your fake news network that didn't even make it through dinner time. They didn't even make it through the first round of bodega sushi delivery. before being destroyed. It's interesting that you brought up this idea of the reality within succession because so much of the show takes place in these places that 99.99% of us will never ever even get a sniff of,

you know, these luxurious estates in Scandinavia or in Palo Alto or, you know, like Santa Barbara or, you know, Croatia or wherever they're going. It's just like no one's ever even going to catch a glimpse of this place. Yeah. But this is the closest, I think, that this show has ever been to and with the exception of some of the Ravenhead stuff in the past

this is like this is what it's like to work at Fox on election night but it's Jesse's vision of it so of course it's kind of the dials are turned a little bit you've got people doing cocaine behind the whiteboards you've got touch screens breaking and you've got these crucial

inflection points where actual real events are being processed and then contextualized to suit certain narratives, right? And that's how the sausage is made, but the sausage is being made by one crazy butcher in Roman. You know, I mean, it really is, he is just like a force of nature that's bowling over the entire process here. Yeah, I mean, also, it's a reminder that everything,

everything actually is a choice. It's not like there's just some tube of truth that you turn on, and what's on there is impartial and it's just being fed to you, and, you know, they report you decide. Every single thing that makes it in front of your screen is a choice. And I think for as much as, I mean, you're right to say this is Jesse's vision of it. And I think there are aspects of it that are tweaked. And there are some helpful and necessary respites of comedy, you know, with the wasabi and everything. But I think broadly, this is true. They are making, this is a sausage factory.

Yeah. And they're making the product that they want and how it gets covered and the slow drip of how it gets covered too, right? Like, I can't believe I'm saying this. As I'm talking to you, I kind of want to watch the episode again. Yeah. Just structurally. Because the first men, you know, it does. these little, it does these very smart things where it's a slow drip of, is there some intimidation?

Well, we're not sure. Is there some unrest? We're not sure. But it's rooted initially, once again, in Kendall's lived experience, his family experience. Right. Once again, Rob is like, I don't feel safe. Yes. But whose side is not making her feel safe? Right. Where is the unrest coming from? Who is the architect of it? And at the beginning of the episode, it's revealed that it's Kendall, and he's doing it for the good of something. You know, he's asking for protection. And we end the episode where the root of the unrest once again is ultimately going to fall on Kendall. Right. It is his fault.

But yeah, there's this sort of percolating feeling. What's the fire. Well, how are we going to report the fire? And oh, this is actually a democracy imperiling incident. Or it's an opportunity. Or it's a ratings. Right. And it just goes into the idea that basically these three, four, five people can be discussing

something in a conference room and then somebody can say it on a television screen. And then Macon can go on stage and say a news organization of. great repute has declared me the winner of the presidency, and we must so, so we must move forward as if that's the truth. And also, these little phone calls between people, between the people decide, people making news, the people reporting the news, the people deciding the news, the people in the news. This is real. This happens. This is not new. I mean, this is probably as long as there's been any kind of politics. Well, we just had it on somewhat of a, but it broke the other way, but they, Fox called Arizona for, sure. Yeah. No, I mean, but even before that, like,

This idea that there are guardrails that will protect us from some things, like, it's a slow erosion is what I mean. Like that stuff like, what you got for me, what can you do for me, the horse trading, the updates, the check-ins, the, this doesn't leave this room. And Darwin isn't finished saying that before it leaves the room. You know, it's, I think the show does a very smart job highlighting the fact that what happens on this particular election night is not necessarily a symptom of the fail-sun disease that has infected Waystar Royco. actually the end game of a much longer collapse. Although I would say that a lot of what motivates what happens is psychologically rooted in the multiple betrayals within that family rather than Kendall saying,

I reject pluralism for the shareholder value of this company. I mean, he does what he does because he feels like he's been stabbed in the back by Shiv. So he rejects the opportunity to pull back the Wisconsin announcement and pump the brakes a little bit. and he goes full on into what Roman wants, which is making the victory, and Shiv is left out. Do you want to do Shiv and Kendall's scenes?

Sure. Well, and Shiv and Tom scenes, and Shiv in general in this episode was fascinating. I think it's also worth noting... It's a punishing episode for that character. It was punished... And for Tom, or for Shiv. For Shiv.

No one comes out looking great, but I agree. I meant it was a punishing episode. Like, she has really put the ringer in this episode. Yes. And... Yeah, I was just going to say the difference between, it's worth noting, again, the difference between the kids and their father, or his father, the father's absence.

To your point, it's not like Logan was, you know, some great believer in the separation of powers in this country or anything. But we are reminded that the root of everything he did was his gut instinct for what was best. Yeah, I mean, they... It was savagely, unemotionally encumbered. He didn't care. He was out for what he thought was the best deal, always. without apology or taking no prisoners

and without any, any, yeah, I mean, you never deviated from that, whereas every single thing that the kids do is filtered through an Instagram lens called Dead Dad. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's go through the beats with Shiv.

She, at the beginning of the episode, is still double agenting with Mattson. She's had this huge fight with Tom in the previous episode, and then after Tom does, just a little pick-me-up of cocaine with Greg, as the election night starts, she has this incident with him

where she starts by saying, like, I'm sorry, and I wanted to give you an opportunity to say you're sorry. And this guy who's high on cocaine and bodega sushi. But he didn't touch the bodega sushi. It might have helped cut the high. He's just like, what do you want?

Like, what are we doing here? And she admits to him, she tells him that she's pregnant, and he thinks that she's lying. I mean, this is again, this is the genius of the episode, something has to matter at a certain point. There has to be a bottom.

There has to be a floor for these people. Not everything is a negotiation or an opportunity for advancement or a game. And this theoretically was that floor. Yeah. This is real. And that's what Shiv has been carrying. And that is, you know, again,

I think it would take probably a different voice and also maybe a lot more time considering it to look into this idea that like, shiv being pregnant has suddenly given her a different moral weight on the show. But I think it has because, if only for what I'm saying, that it does seem to have created some, there's a limit. There's a limit to what she can accept, to what she can maneuver and what she can do,

and to have it be treated like that, like another gambit, like being outfoxed. Yeah. It was pretty incredible considering we walked away from last week being like, this is the most savage the most savagery we've seen on television outside of mixed martial arts and the White Caps episode of Sopranos

and there's still more to go. It can get worse. It can apparently always get worse. So the reason why I thought it was really punishing to Shiv is her character has suffered the most because of the difference between time on the show and time in the real world watching the show. Right.

So Shiv finds out in episode 4? Her baby is past those tests. It's the opening of 4, the post-Logan and she hasn't told anybody. So that's now been almost a month in real time. For us, for you and me and the people watching the show, we're like, Shiv's been sitting on this news for a month. Like, wouldn't she be showing? And in reality, it's been five days or four days.

And so when she invokes her father dying, I'm like, are you kind of going back to the well on that almost? Do you know what I mean? Like that was actually my reaction in the moment is that she was struggling to like kind of gin up some sympathy from Tom or to win the argument and she goes to the dad card. I'm like, well, actually her dad's only been dead for like less than a week. So it's totally reasonable that she would be like, why don't you give me a fucking break for getting a fight with you last night?

Like my dad is dead. I'm fighting for this company, blah, blah, blah. But for me watching, I'm like, it's been a month of my life of her kind of doing this like this double game. It is also not to be a Tom defender. He's not wrong. It's a little bit bullshit. You don't want to be Team Tom here? You don't want to just be like Wham's Scams guys?

I feel like. Disgusting brothers for him? I feel like there's some potential legal jeopardy to align myself with Tom at this point going forward. I definitely think your act blue gets suspended. In the American projects that we're all working on. No, I mean, she's throwing shit at him as opposed to saying the truth,

which is that she is hurting, that she's in a devastated, injured place. My dad died is saying, like, you know, she's trying to cloak herself and things that will... What's the, you know,

it's like, what lever can I pull here to stop this train? Yes. Like, I want you to forgive me and now we are good and now we're going to be

on the same team tonight. And instead, Tom, coked out is like, like, you're telling me that you're pregnant and that you're trying to invoke your father. Like, I don't know what for you is a move. Yes.

A faint. Yeah. And that is not unfair because, again, instead of living with the emotional agony of literally everything that happened over the previous four hours, Shiv leaves that building being like, I will take this emotion and turn it into fissile fuel to destroy my brothers. To fuck these guys over. Yeah. It is. It is a ploy.

Yeah. It always is. And that's the thing that is just so incredibly savage about the show is that everything and everyone is tarnished. When Kendall says what he says to her, he's not wrong. He's not all the way right, but he's also not wrong. Yeah. So let's talk.

So basically there's two Kendall Shiv conversations. The first one happens in a conference room as Roman is trying to essentially close the ATN-Manken marriage and that they're going to basically like push him over the top by just declaring that Wisconsin is won by Manket, even though 100,000 ballots are essentially on fire in this Milwaukee polling station. And all the details do mirror the real world in the sense that the analogs to like Newsmax or whatever are out in front of this. Yeah, there's like a they're getting outflanked on the right. And that has always been Roman's concern. He goes to his father in in season three and he says, we can't be dinosaurs.

We're going to get out flanked. Like we need to keep the money machine going. And then we revitalize ourselves by getting behind this mankin guy and we go get Gojo and we go do tech. You know, like we go we're the T-Rex, you know? And this is this is also very much taken or at least skimmed from the top of Murdoch stuff. Okay. Right. Which is one of the

Murdochuns is just like, I've had brown shirts sized for all of us. Right. And the other one is like Avatar is a great movie. Yeah, because it's also about saving the whales. You don't speak like Meryl Streep in that movie, but should. Yeah. So Shiv and Kendall have a conversation that is probably the most tender moment

between the two of them since Safe Room, which also takes place at the ATN offices, if I remember correctly. And is this moment where Kendall comes to her and is pretty candid. He says, got to be honest, I've been thinking about doing this myself, but I don't want that ambition

to necessarily affect the family, our familial relationship. And on top of that, I feel like I'm getting railroaded a little bit here with the Mankan Roman fucking white power power couple. And it's really disturbing me. What do you think? And he really opens his heart to her, I think.

You know, I mean, he's being at least honest about what he wants, which is, I want to run this company. But I don't know if we can do this. If Roman's doing what he's doing, can you help me out here? And they have a conversation about whether or not he's a good person and a good father and whether or not his father has poisoned him. And I think it's that moment, which has always been something that I think I've struggled with with this show, is does anything matter?

When you're watching a moment like that, when you see Safe Room, when you see a moment like this, is it going to have a consequence in the next scene? Or is what the show is saying is none of this shit actually matters. People can be, quote, unquote, vulnerable with one another, and it actually has no knock-on effect because you can just keep bantering and keep running around and keep getting in private jets.

So to have the scene at the end of the episode where Kendall basically discovers Shiv's double game and in one of my favorite scenes maybe of the series confronts Shiv and says when I asked you to call Nate and what was going on with Jimenez you look like a goose trying to shit out a house brick I believe that's correct and then Strong you know I think Strong's best actor on television I think Kendall is one of the most

amazing characters we've we've ever had on television. The way he says you piece of dirt is like kind of going to like stay with me forever. Because you can see he almost wants to call her a piece of shit. Yeah. But calling her a piece of dirt is like even worse. And he's so fucking hurt. And Roman is so delighted. And that whole scene, I love this scene. That whole scene, Colkin is doing such an amazing job of watching them. and he's so titillated. He's getting off on it. Yeah, because he's winning,

but also because everything he thinks about people is right. Yes, at their core, everyone is just base. Yes, and he's like, I'm the only one who's honest about it. I'm the only one who's like, you know what? Like, this guy, like, what are we talking about? Like, this guy is us. And again, the show has it both ways in the way that only great art can, I think. I think Kendall wants a conscience, the same.

way he wants the latest supreme drop. You know, he would love that. If you go back, if you run the tape back over the preceding three-plus seasons of the show, what was the only time Kendall ever got what he wanted and was in some ways calmed or at peace?

And it was when he fucking killed a guy and his father hugged him and told him he was his number one boy. It's all he's ever wanted. And what's ingenious about about the show is that it does understand that when we come to people with vulnerability or we come to people with emotional truth or admissions or whatever we want to dump on them, it is also transactional on some level because we want to be approved of. We want it to be rubber stamped. We want to be told

it's okay or that it wasn't that bad, you know? And that's what was so interesting about those moments before that conversation where Kendall is completely spun out and undone because he has a vision of who he is and who he could be in the world and the type of leader he would love to be. And he's actually being forced with a moment. Like someone is leaning in his ear and being like, Mr. President, a second plane has hit the tower. Yeah, right. You know, it's like, I just want to be here with my pet goat and have the kids love me. Yeah.

Sorry, digression, but you know what I mean. Everybody knows what I mean. Just a cool 9-11 reference. When he goes to Shiv, he wants a soul band-aid, you know? Yeah. I love, I love, it remains my favorite running thing in the show when the siblings either talk about or do hugs. I know. Are we, should we do one of these?

You could do like basically a panel of all the hugs that they've ever had, you know, and when Shiv has got her eyes closed versus when she's got them open, when she actually like embraces somebody versus just patting them on the back. Yeah. It's like the story of the show is told through the embraces in a lot of ways. And for as complicated as the dramatics of the show are, these people are so desperately painfully simple. And everything is just an exposed nerve. And he gets what he wants from Shiv in that first scene. And then when she betrays him, nothing has penetrated.

Nothing has sunk into the soil. In a way, it's also what he wants because it makes it easy. It makes it animalistic and reactive, right? It was yes and now it's no. Easy. There's nothing to it. And then he commits the country on a downward spiral to fascism. Right.

Because his feelings are hurt again. On the flip side of it was Shiv in those scenes. I obviously have sympathy for her. Her brothers were trying to betray her as well. They made sort of this unilateral decision that they were going to shepherd the company through the merger and then they would go to Aetian or Gojo or some combination of the two or peers, peers, whatever, together. That there was going to be this family business that they embarked upon.

and they completely cut her out and kind of never really, like, got into why or what they were doing with that. But I understand her motivations for working with Mattson, and I understand and definitely identify with what she's saying in that conference room about America. But I noted with interest that this is the second time that she's when talking about the election just sounds like a resistance Twitter bot. Well, but that's also, you know, Roman to Shiv in that. scene is me watching extrapolations. It is. You know? And I wish it wasn't. But I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whales are good. I get it. Won't somebody think of the children? I mean, yeah. It's horrifying. Yeah. And she's like the Republic and there comes a time and he's just like, shut up. But it's just the framing. Like what makes Succession good is that it's about what Roman is doing and saying and how true that is, as opposed to what she's saying. Right.

Because how do you sit in a room? Because Aaron Sorkin's version of it is Shiv talks everybody into stopping this catastrophe. Yes. She breaks into just a brilliant one-woman performance of the first act of Hamilton. Everyone applauds. Right. And then they all go to Shake Shack, but the original one in Madison Square Park. You know, so it's like, it's cool.

Yeah. It's just who tells your story, you know? It's not corporate. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere? and realize you're missing something, like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike,

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Do you feel like there's a moment as they're sitting in the conference room watching making speech? And I want to get to Minkin in a second. Yeah. Where Romans kind of like, all we did tonight was make great TV. And that's when Kendall's like the market, the market will be leash and this is a guy we can do business with. and I think

Roman says something like nothing matters or something like that but there's like a cut and it's actually a not very typical succession cut. It almost feels like they don't really do inserts a lot where like the insert shot is like

essentially like when you cut to like somebody's hand touching something or whatever and it's not that per se but it is almost a typical succession shot where Shiv says essentially things do matter you know I can't remember the exact line

off the top of my head, but I should have written it down. And I thought that that was like a tone setter for that episode and hopefully for the next couple, where this isn't going to be at the next episode, everybody is just like, hey, so how are you doing since election day? Like, that was pretty wild, huh? You know, like? Well, what is insane is that the next episode is the funeral, which is the next day. Right. I do have some questions about the hangover remedies available the members of the upper class. Just questions about like, like, I understand it was a nutty week,

but could we have figured some different things out? Yeah. Could Logan have maybe laid in situ for a couple more days? I also would have, and maybe we'll have a chance to bring this up with Jesse. Like, nobody would have been mad if he was just like three days later. That's cool. I'm okay.

I'm okay not knowing what happened to them on Wednesday. Yeah, right. You know, let's rest. Let's take a beat. Yeah, the shift part of it is, really interesting because it also is so deeply connected to the show's, I don't want to say real theme, but one of its most persistent themes is parenthood and the responsibilities, generational responsibilities. I thought that her response to Kendall's prestige TV question of like, am I a good father?

She's like you're a good guy. He wants to be. That matters. Not that much. Well, he wants to be, but he's not acting on it. I mean, there's always a difference between intention and behavior, right? Like, you can't be judged. Kendall would like to be judged on the content of his character, right?

Like on his intentions. I would like to be a good father. I would like to be a good steward of this company and my father's legacy. I would like to be a disruptive force for good in the marketplace of ideas. Okay. But what has he actually done over these three and a half years? Seen his kids three times, had a few too many lemichelos and shown a disturbing proclivity for floating in dangerous bodies of water.

That's pretty much his... Yeah. Oh, and he killed the guy. Yeah. That happened too. So that's the difference. I think that if they were in any way self-reflective or self-aware, which would make for terrible television, so I'm glad they're not, you could articulate the idea that how could he be? What has ever been modeled for him?

So, you know, he's educated himself enough and moved the needle enough to be in a position of, I wish I could do this, but he has no tools. And he has no interest in acquiring the tools. So when she's like, you're okay, that seems fair. Yeah. And I think, do you think that when he comes to her and he says, I asked you real questions or like the first thing he says to her when he walks back into the room? So basically what happens is Kendall asks Shiv to call Nate and get Jimenez's promise that they will scutle. They'll also block the deal.

So then it's a pick him. Both sides will give him what he wants so he could be a good guy. Yeah. And then Shiv goes into another room, but within sight of Kenner, Kendall and pretends to call Nate but is on a, like, the line you have called is busy. Do you have to do that with a cell phone? Like, I would just hold it to my ear. Yeah, I guess that is sort of silly that she pretended to call a number. I think she could also have, like, legitimately called Nate and just been like, how's it going? Sure. You know? Yeah.

Whatever. I'm not quarterback in that. And then... What succession got wrong about lying about calling your ex-boyfriend? Yeah. And then they're in a conference room and Kendall's like, well, I'm going to call Nate. And I'm just going to just to kind of get some time with him. And Shiv has a world blown up. Sarah Snook's face in that scene as she's watching her brother discover not only that she's been lying about the Nate call, but then quickly put together that she's obviously working with Lucas because she's not trying to scuttle the deal. And where did that come from, though? Who betrayed her? Greg. I mean, Greg had quite a come up in terms of his influence. It was an interesting Greg episode. And then so Shiv walks back in. And the

first thing, or Kendall walks back in and the first thing that Kendall says is I'm a good guy. Yeah. You know, like you played on my heart, you know, like you tried, you made it personal by relating to me as my sister rather than as my business adversary slash partner. Yeah. And now I'm going to fucking destroy you. And now I'm going to destroy this country in the process. And I wonder whether we're supposed to think in Kendall's case, as he's sitting in that SUV on

the way home, and he says some people just don't know how to make a deal. Yeah. If he thinks to himself, like, the way I protect Sophie, the way to protect my kids, and the way I protect this country is by being as empower as possible, as having as much power as possible. Or if he just doesn't think about that at all, and he's just like, I win. No, he's a tiny weak person who's like, I'm going to be a big, strong man by doing the biggest, strongest, biggest, loudest, meanest things. It's like someone who, you know, has 30 guns in their house where their children

live because just in case. That's actually a lot more dangerous, I think, to have the guns in the house, but, you know, you do you. So I imagine, legally speaking, that's probably like the CNN building that Schiff walks out of because of Warner Discovery issues. But it sure looked like the Fox Building. It really did. It really did.

If you're walking up and down New York and Midtown, like up around there, you can, you just walk by these huge news corporations. The Kairons. Yeah. All hours. Yeah. I, you know, I guess retroactively, I'm a little bit Team Logan because, and I think the show, by the way, I think the show has also been surprisingly consistent in that. That I think the show's argument, such as it has one, is that he was phenomenally, consistently successful in a corrupt and inhuman arena.

But he was the best at it. And he never. ever, ever, walked into a negotiation and said, I'm a good guy. He never walked in or out of a negotiation being like, I was on it, you know, I was vulnerable to you.

Yeah. And you took advantage of it. That's just, they were always speaking a different language to him. And now they're the ones running shit directly into the ground because it is all, all emotional. Yeah.

It is all emotional vulnerability. Even when it's not, even when it's performed aggression, like what Roman's doing, I mean, that's, it's, it's just vulnerability. I want to talk about one more depressing part and then I want to talk about

how funny this episode was in a lot of ways. Okay. The depressing part is are we sure Mencken would get to that point in like national politics? Like that guy's pretty weird.

Fucking yes. What? Hello? Well, to me he like resembles Blake Masters a little bit. Yes. And that guy got fired into the sun. Like he got smoked.

I do, okay, I see what you're saying. There is a, there is a point. here, right? Where like, ultimately... I would actually find it more not believable and maybe this doesn't matter but if it was somebody more on the

like just really lunatic maga fringe kind of thing. But I think the one thing that we're beginning to understand certainly not too late. Like right on time is that, you know, the fringe fascism is, it's great, people love it.

You know, it pulls super well in some places. Yeah. But the mouthpiece matters. And people love a big brain showman clown entertainer. Sure. That's really, like if you take the same ideas and you put them in a super creepy, like, in-cell NRA slash MBA from Harvard body,

it's not going to have the same effect. You know, it's the sort of the DeSantis thing where it's just like the institution, the institutional party is just like, this guy's a better vehicle for our ideas. And then they trot them out on the big stage. It's like a Westworld robot, like malfunctioning. Just not ready for prime time.

I do think the show kind of gets that wrong, but maybe the- It almost seems like honestly somebody who would be, who would pop off. He seems a little bit almost closer to Boris Johnson than he does to a Republican who would actually win here. Well, I think it's interesting, right? Like, clearly, even though he has not a lot of screen time, there's an interesting thought process in the creation of this Golem, like, that he, he, you know, that he's a little wonkish, but like in the type of Christianity

where everyone had swords also, that I'm not really familiar with. That is an interesting choice that appeals to certain segments of America that I'm terrified of. But not like a plurality that would probably get you. I don't know why I'm like saying,

there's no way this guy could win the presidency. Yeah, no, I think, but I think we would... It's just such an interesting character choice, right? Like there's, I think that there has to be somebody the way he's written, the way Justin Kirk looks, the way Justin Kirk plays it, the ambiguously sexual relationship that he and Roman seem

to have, like, biochemistry-wise, where they're, like, communicating with their penises in in these small rooms. Like, all of that is, like, very, very, very awesome and provocative, and I love it. It's really more, like, I was just, like,

are we sure that this guy, like, talking about, like, the grace of of democracy, coming through him and stuff like that. Things getting clean. Yeah. Clean, clean. Yeah, yeah.

No, I think it's in fact, it's the opposite. I think, and this is interesting. I wonder, because so much of this episode was, I thought, correct, even though it came from a very distinctly British point of view. And some, in the same way that Veep, which was also a Brit who had worked on the thick of it, was, had kind of a necessary angle because it took none of it seriously in a way that, you know, American political shows prior to Veep tended to be. West Wing or House of Cards where everyone was either pure good or lawful evil.

Yeah, right. And it's like, everyone's a clown. So I think that it got a lot of the American spirit right in that sense. But I agree with you, to my mind, the character, and listen, we're not doing this. We're not like what succession gets wrong about Republican politics, although a little bit we are. I think actually what would have been kind of interesting is if the figure, not necessarily been Trump-like, but had been, like, you know, Richard Trumpka, the labor leader. Yeah.

Like who is going to win, who's actually going to have a chance in Wisconsin? Right. And it's probably not creepy professor. It's probably a guy who can capture the white working class vote, but then also be... Well, maybe he could. You know what I mean? But I feel like he's almost written to the point where it's like he's got to be almost attractive to Roman. That's the thing.

He's there from Roan. And I'm like, would Rome, the person that Roman is attracted to actually be a viable political candidate, even in a post-Trump? And I think we've answered the question because this show, as much as we've spent today talking about what it's saying about the, you know, the rotten core of America, the show is about this family. And it is about the characters. And that's what matters. And so you had to have a figurehead that would appeal to Roman specifically, like, who can crush his opposition with a smirk. Like that is what Roman wants to be. You can't have that person be the mouthpiece of the peasants that he, you know, that's literally what he calls the voters. That wouldn't work. It would be

interesting for them to try to corral a wild stallion and lose it. But I think ultimately, I think you're making the right point. It is, the show suggests that everything is just about A, relationships, and B, about fucked up emotional family vulnerability and what appeals to you and what turns you on and what, what empowers you. Like, even when Roman is getting his way at the end, And the first thing he kind of says to kind of usher Shiv off the stage is like your past doesn't even work in here, you know? And he's like sort of like you're not, you're out of the club, basically. Like it's almost childish. It's almost like you can't play with us anymore.

It's also doing the thing that I think only the elite television shows do, which is really get its arms around something that can be very problematic in storytelling, which is the engine of TV, especially serialized drama, is change. everything has to change what's happening next what's happening next but the essence of human beings is that people kind of don't change and they kind of are who they are and so the way succession has solved this problem i think is that it's just changed the stakes around the people so it's one thing for roman to explode a satellite and slink into his chair because he doesn't actually matter he's not empowered no one's listening to him uh he can't bend anyone's ear he just blew up a i believe unmanned satellite. Yeah.

Well, the guardrails are off and he just blew up the United States of America. Same person. Hits a little different. Yeah. It's a little different. Let's talk about, I would say,

the lighter moments. I don't know if you would, in the context of what happens in the episode, it's hard to say they're light, but I talked about the thick of it. I talked about the running around and the closing doors and the everything.

When Tom and Greg do cocaine behind a whiteboard on election night? One willingly, one unwillingly, one unwillingly. I'm just a simple guy. Yeah. That's funny to be. That was real funny. What was also funny, like, we've been, we've been really giving Matthew McFadgino's flowers

for his, like, profound, raw, emotional performances. But let's really crush the tape on his face and eyes when Greg is like, do you want some of the thing that you asked me to get? Like, when he does the face of like, how dare you, but

there are worse suggestions? Yeah. It's It's pretty amazing. What he asks for after they do cocaine is, I believe, microwave ginger shots, spaghetti with olive oil, and American bottled water. And I want to just say thank you to Jesse Armstrong. That is a very specific post-cocaine food order. Yeah. I think it's a little bit, maybe your eyes are bigger than your appetite in that moment.

Yeah, I think there's an essential oxymoron in the post-cocaine food portion of that sentence. You know, that doesn't necessarily track. I would like to, could we... The idea that he does cocaine and he immediately sits down for a meal is shocking to me. That's unexpected. Yeah. Could we CC this portion of the podcast to whoever provides the snacks here at Spotify HQ? Like, you know, just maybe just some little pasta, olive oil out there.

I think that would be a good bit for you is to start walking up to Bill and asking for American bottled water and spaghetti. with olive oil and seeing how he takes it. He's in a great place right now. Yeah, I think let's see. I mean, by the time this podcast airs, he either will be or he won't be. Either way, it's funny. Either way, we'll be,

we'll either want the pasta or we'll want the alternative, considering how the Celtic Sixers series goes. So, okay, fair. That part was very funny. Yeah. I want to give a special shout out to, well, this is a running thing.

I mean, one of the things that makes Succession the best in the biz is the Rolodex and who they call when they can call. when they can call anyone. Can you talk about my guy, Adam? Adam Godley, who one of the great British actors of our time, one of the great British faces.

He's currently in like this amazing play, the Lehman trilogy that's been in England and it's been in New York and it's, yeah. He's on the great as the priest. You've seen him in a hundred things. Here he is as Darwin. The aptly named. The aptly named Darwin,

head of the decision desk. And that, he's amazing at it because he at once embodied where I thought it was going to go, which was someone, has some conscience. Someone will do the thing that would make no sense to the Roy's,

which is to say, hey, hey, and then get fired or whatever. Yeah. It doesn't go that way because he gets wasabi in his eyes. No, it doesn't go that way because they offer to put him on television. Great point.

Yeah, they put them on television. They're like, what if we put somebody on TV to explain? And that's when he stops. And that's when he's like, I could do that. It's a great call.

I did want to make the pivot to what was also truly funny, which is. This is just like, because we're doing this, we're recording this the day after they put Trump on CNN, right? And it's just like, how could you do that? It's just like, all those motherfuckers did that. They all were like, I want to be on television. Yeah.

No, because it got ratings. Yeah. And because what's everyone talking about today? CNN. That's right. Good job. Good job, P.T. Barnum. There's no way the lions will escape this circus.

But I did want to say that Greg pouring slightly. lemon-flavored LeCroy directly into his burning eyes. It's one of the fucking funniest things. I couldn't believe it. Like when he he's like it's just slightly

lemon flavored. It's just a... He takes a sip. The best part about that scene is so Darwin has wasabi in his eyes and then he has

LeCroi in his eyes. And the entire time Roman's just looking at his phone. And this is a tick that Kieran Culkin, I don't know if it's like in the script

or if it's just like his thing. But he has a tendency to troll the shit out of someone. and then when they start reacting, just start looking at his phone, which is something I have to say my wife does to me when we fight,

and I don't love it. Wow, that's sad. So she's only there for the airing of grievances, not any sort of response or blowback. So she's a sports radio caller. She takes her answers offline. She takes it off air. Savage.

But Roman does that really, really well. Like when he's like, he's just looking at his phone while this guy's like, my eyes, my eyes. It's just like texting. To be fair, that's kind of what happens when I don't like a show you like and you check your email. Yeah. It's very similar.

I'm like, this show is bad for humanity. And you're like, oh, DoorDash has a deal today. How much is the pasta with just olive oil? All NBA came out, huh? Jalen Brown's going to get paid, yeah. Supermax. What else was funny about this episode? I mean, it was interesting.

This isn't so much funny, but again, it's just. just, it's just structure. And I, I still geek out on imagined conversations, which is, for example, they're in the writer's room and they're looking at their big board and they're plotting out this episode. And then if their writer's room is anything like most, you have headshots of your regular cast on the wall, both because they're looking down on you, but also so you can always just sort of think of their faces, think of them saying lines, but then also so you don't forget about them. Sure. And you're like, what's that person's business this episode? The entire C-suite, right, like the executive level,

like the Frank Tom Jerry's. Like I don't think Jerry's in the episode. No, it's Hugo, he goes there. They're there. And I think there's maybe a total two cutaways. And you have to imagine

they may have shot like a basically like running commentary from that group and they used what they needed to use. I thought it was really, that's fucking awesome. I thought it was really interesting to hear Chris,

I don't know if you know this, but I listened to two to three other podcasts. Fresh air. The Bill Simmons podcast. Yeah. What the fuck with Mark Marin? Yes. Although I also listened to the Philly Special

Thanks. With Chris Ryan, I listen to NBA show. You know, sometimes I sprinkle in a little Rosillo. Yeah. You know, because I just love sports. But J. Smith, Cameron, plays Jerry, was on Marin. Okay. And she was saying she was on Rissillo.

God, I wish. Ryan, make it happen, off-season. She said, we've heard this before, but it was interesting to hear it again. Just the degree to which they fucking roll tape. it's worth saying again this is the craziest flex that I and they shoot on film yeah which is just wild to me because no one does that anymore and if you do do it you don't shoot it the way they shoot succession

which is apparently we just roll morning tonight and then we decide what the episode is later yeah and they don't just roll because they give everyone like you know improv takes which they do and apparently you know that's where the jerry roman stuff came from was just kieran and j smith cameron riffing but it really shapes it so i think anyway all of that is to say, they definitely ran on that. But I thought what was used was so appropriate, because these are spectators with vested interests, kind of, kind of. And the most telling moment

of all that for me was the lingering on Fisher Stevens, on Hugo, who's also bored, because his life is public relations. Yeah, he doesn't care who he's doing comms for. No, but he also doesn't care who's leading the nation. He wants good content. Yeah. Which is pretty much what America Erica wants to, whether it's TikTok or whether it's, you know, in the White House. So that was artfully chosen and damning. What was funny about the episode, Chris, was the rise of the conheads. The fall, but also rise of the conheads. Alas, Willa.

Alas. Like, it's just kind of amazing when you have performers like Ellen Ruck who are like, get in the huddle with the coach. And the coach is like, here's the play I'm drawing up for you. and he's like, I got it. Yeah. I will run this. I'm alone on comedy zone this week.

So, okay, I'll just take that. I'll do that whole one. We don't know if we won. We don't know. And then he becomes... In Schrodinger's cat. He becomes also increasingly Shakespearean. Yeah.

As if he's performing for someone. But then his speech is also low-key terrifying. Yeah. The conheads will have, like, their revenge, basically? He's like, you're going to need another teat to sup on. What does he say? But also that they are all Roman.

Like, Roman is the most turnt of all this, the most, like, online, like, low-key fash, you know? Fascism is cool, but not. He's the most of the moment. All corinth. But this is the default place if you poke

them, right? Which is how fucking dare you, you peasant. Yeah. That's what happens if you put a microphone in front of these people. And that also is the, that's what gives the satire teeth. Greg's betrayal of Shiv to the extent that it is one, the most fascinating. First of all,

you know, he had sort of said, I mean, he had been out with Matson, he had sort of been leaning Mats, I think. He drank things that were not meant to be drinks. He had danced with an old man. And the old man did not want to dance. What does Tom say to him is like, he's like, it's medically good for your brain.

Are you saying that all Aztecs are, stupid. This fucking show, man. Oh, my God. But yeah, when he betray Shiv, I kind of like... Did he call him racist for saying Aztex are stupid? I'm sorry, please continue. I like the fact that he was like, you know what? I'm kind of tired of people coming to me and saying that they're going to remove my spleen with a butter knife if I do something wrong.

Yeah. And I've, I kind of, I'm going to short my Shiv stock here. And when he walks by her and he does the Jordan shrug... You know? Yeah. It's fucking, it's gutshot. When, when Tom fobs the phone off on Greg, and they're like, we're not, we're not talking to Greg and they all hang up. Yeah. That's another really great phone part is when he comes in and they're like, Mankin, Mankin, Makin.

And Chiv's like, no, please no. Yeah. And he's got three phones in his hands. And he says, it's not my call. Yeah. It's not his call. He's doing the Joe Dumars and one, right? That's three phones.

Yeah. That's a lot of phones. Yeah. You got to get a lot of pick protections. What kind of shoes did Sid need to fit her cloven hoves in? But also, I think you can really see the degree to which, I mean, I made a joke about this at the beginning, but like Jimenez shows up for the first time, governor. He's fucking boring. Yeah.

I noticed that he is not shot with much care or like charm. Charisma. Yeah, it's like, hey, Ken, well, I'm going to give you back to Nate, you know. And Jared is so much more. You know, he's in this lavish kind of, you know, romantic room. All right, let's talk. But also his thing, sorry, in some ways, I thought one of the most interesting in telling things is when he's like, we're going to pivot to losing, but it's not losing. Right.

You know, we're just not winning yet. Yes. Yeah. It's narrative. It's what actually has power in a world where the only thing of value is content is narrative. And by the way, is that going to be the new Spotify slogan? Do you take, Chris, take that to Sweden. I will.

Tell Daniel that was my idea. No, I would definitely say it was my idea. That's fair. Last thing before we go. Okay, so next steps. I love that when Shiv was like she's going to go to the press, Kendall just gives her two thumbs up, like, for sure. And then she's just like, I'll tell everybody, you know, I would try to save the country and Romans like, or are you mad about your boyfriend breaking up? with you. And I guess my question is, what does Shiv have left here? Like, is she, like, so obviously

she still knows that her brother killed a guy. That's still there. And she knows that her other brother sold out the country to block a major merger or acquisition. So those are two things that she could tell people. She also is still, I guess, on some level, the presumptive owner of PGN, a network that has pivoted to making Tom Wamsgans the enemy of democracy, Tom, whom she, currently loaths, but is still... It's up with PGN. You think they're like, father of... Guys, is the check? You guys are going to send the check soon? Well, it's only been four days.

I know. Nan is still swirling and spitting in Santa Barbara. You know? I was interested that like suddenly... When we were first introduced to the Pierce's, right, it was like Hearst family, right? It was like a Condé Nast type thing of like you assumed they owned that world's version

of the New Yorker. But then they have MSNBC too now? Mm-hmm. Or is that sort of of like PBS plus. I think it's supposed to be like they're just like a liberal ATN. We can wrap it up here though. Oh, so but for next steps like I think that as is often the case when talking about the show in terms of like wins and losses,

you end up realizing that the it's a feature not a bug, which is to say what the fuck does Shiv want? What does it matter? What does any of it mean? and you could look at that in sort of a morass of two episodes to solve it, or you could be like, well, that's actually what the show is reminding us. This is where we're headed. This is the future that they have now chosen.

The stakes got really fucking real in the span of less than one American work week. Yes. And that's kind of a wrap. That's on all of it. Kind of. Yeah. I mean, also not. Because remember the savagery of the satire,

that Jesse Armstrong pedals is they're still rich. Yeah. Well, that's the whole point. That's not going to change. When he's driving home in his secure car, and he's talking to his chauffeur, the same way that Logan ended his life talking to his bodyguard chauffeur,

it's just like it doesn't matter if you're alone if you're powerful. Yeah, he can't see his kids. Right. Can't talk to his kids. He's scaring the shit out of his kids. One of his brother scares the shit out of him and he's at war with his sister. He's pretty much alone.

Who do you think he voted for? Khan? I think you... Sympathy vote for Khan? That's right. All right. Let's wrap it up. All right.

Thanks for talking to me about Succession. Thanks to Kai McMullen for producing us. Thanks to Austin Gale for cinematographing us. Did you get any... So for you, I just got real bad November 8th, 2016 vibes. Like, it's still in my body. Yeah. It was just hard.

It didn't... I'm not diminishing the artistic achievement. This is a good thing. It fucked with me this episode. Yeah, it wasn't my favorite experience, November 8, 2016, you know? I think I have some distance intellectually from this show and what's like the real world. Yeah. And I thought that they're, they did some things in this show that were like, okay, like, it's almost like having guardrails up for the viewer.

And they're like, this is, this is about something else, you know? This is about these three people trying to, I mean, is that what happened on November, November, 2016? is like somebody was mad at their dad? Yes, and he was elected president. So, nailed it again, Jesse. What happened on November? It's 2016 again? I don't remember, but I had a nosebleed the next morning,

and it wasn't for Tom Wamsgams' reasons. I go to chat GPT and find out. Thanks to everybody for listening. We'll be back on Thursday.