The Watch - Breaking Down ‘The Mandalorian’ Season 2 Finale With Mallory Rubin

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

Chris and Andy are joined by Mallory Rubin to break down the Season 2 finale of ‘The Mandalorian.’ They talk about their initial takeaways from the episode (1:00), what the big reveal means for the series (14:24), and where the show, and the franchise, goes from here (34:23). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Mallory Rubin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he wants to know if Luke Skywalker is taking more daycare drop-offs.

It's Andy Greenwald. Listen, I just said this to you. I'll say it again. The only correct response to the season finale of the Mandalorian when he gives baby Yoda away is, thank God. Thank God. He could finally.

put on some cozy clothes and maybe, you know, do the crossword puzzle and relax. Andy, we are doing all Mandalorian everything today on this episode of The Watch and we are joined by a very special guest who we have been teasing for multiple weeks. Her very busy schedule has prevented her from joining us, but today you wanted her, you got her. It's Mallorya Rubin. It's all coming up on the Watch starting in just a sec. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to

severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of

interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. All right, guys, we are back, Andy Greenwald, Mallory, Rubin, the Mandalorian. And we might talk about all sorts of stuff on this podcast. It can go in a bunch of different directions. I know Mallory is prepared for anything. You know me. I love to wing it with no heads up. Greenwald, what's up, man? Happy Monday. How are you? Great, great. I, you know, I just, I take my cues from the stock market and nothing else. You know what I mean? And Vanden. And so everything seems really good. Malt, are you the same, right? You're kind of an S&P gal, if I remember correctly. That's me. My only stock is in Halo and Grogu. That's my whole life, you know? So what do I have now that Mando's over? I wanted to ask you just sort of a general question as we get into this conversation is we all have different lives right now and they're more separate than ever because of the pandemic and because we only get to see each other in these sort of digitally appropriate ways.

But one thing that I noticed on Friday, and obviously the episode of the Mandalorian, I've already spoiled it and a couple of the jokes I've made, but this is going to be a spoiler discussion of the episode. So if you haven't seen it, don't listen. By the way, people should, people listening to the watch, who listen to the watch exclusively, should know that you are coming into this the way I am, which is being like, hey guys, thanks for coming over to the dinner party I held. And both the guests being like, well, we ate twice already. Mallory is done binge mode. We both had dinner already. And we did a bite, and then I did a bite-sized TV concierge with Mal about Mandalorian. Just, just it's. But I think the warm takes that I'll be serving you guys will be, you know, typically bitter. Let me tell you something. When I ask Chris, what do I need to know to prepare for the watch with you and Andy? My dear friends and fellow lovers of content on Monday, here's what he said. Vibes.

That was the only prep note I got. Okay. And so we're here to soak up the vibes with you, man. That's it. That's great. I wanted to ask at the top of the show, was there a part of you that wished that this episode, which was so big and it had such a huge payoff. And I think it had been building up to something

for such a like these months. Did any part of you wish that this was like Sunday at 9 p.m.? That there was like kind of like more of a collective appointment viewing for something? I mean, when you think about what happens at the end of this episode and we can have all sorts of different opinions about whether or not it was technically executed well or whether it was like narratively justified and all sorts of things, but it was a fucking big deal. You're talking about the death of Bibb Fortuna,

right. Yes. I mean, like, I have a lot of thoughts about that guy. I've got a whole thing. It's a, it's a metaphor for the way Mitch McConnell is treating small businesses in this country. No, but I was like, I can't believe there are some people who got up at the crack of dawn. Chris, Bibb wasn't elected. You understand. He was appointed. He's an acting director of the enterprises. So, okay. But there are some people who woke up at the crack of dawn on Friday or stayed up all night Thursday to watch it. There are people who eventually got to it after they were done work on Friday or maybe when some point over the weekend. By that point over the weekend, you would have to be having your head in a hole to not know that something big happened in that episode. Was there any part of you that wishes

there was a little bit more of a scheduled destination for the Mandalorian? I'm going to say a definite yes, and I think that's probably in keeping with my old guard sensibilities here. Because, I mean, basically Sunday night became the definitive night for television over the last 20 years, primarily because that's where HBO staked its claim back when it was mostly competing with broadcast networks.

And they just kind of picked their night and they stuck with it. That ended up being incredibly helpful for those of us in the Take Industrial Complex because we are ready and fired up to go for the working week to carry the show aloft on her shoulders. Like that time,

there was one set of footprints in the sands of Tatooine when I was walking there. or someone else was more likely Mallory was carrying me at the time. The goal now of television and streaming whatever we want to call it is to basically take the place of the film business and to dominate your entertainment life. Weekend makes more sense for that.

Everyone's looking forward to it. The excitement builds over the week, and then you're ready to go and you've got the weekend to talk about it. That's not great for us, podcasters who may want to take some days off. So coming at it from that perspective, as someone who also generally watches Mandalorian on Sunday nights anyway, it's a little bit of a bummer. I mean, you could feel the excitement,

and I saw someone tweeting that Star Wars fans are a little more hasty with the spoils, smashing the spoils, than, say, like, people who watched... Because remember, like, Avengers Endgame came out, and people kept it pretty quiet. And then the Russo's were like, do people, the dignity... Do them the favor not to come out and tell them what happened if you see it on Thursday night at 10 o'clock?

there might be someone who doesn't get a chance. Mal, what do you think? Well, I think I'll just observe the obvious distinction between the Avengers comp and this, which is you can watch this at your own home, right? So in that sense, I think, the flexibility of just knowing that if you want to stay up late Thursday night or when you wake up Friday morning, it's there for you. And then you can kind of choose when is the right time in your Friday or your weekend to spend a few precious moments. with Dear Sweet Grogu, I like that part of it. I will say that Friday was very busy, and I was really terrified every time I had to go on Twitter for work that I was going to catch

spoilers. It was a real anxiety-inducing experience because I did not want this to be ruined for me in any way. And, you know, I tweet a lot about Star Wars. I follow a lot of Star Wars accounts. I think my Twitter algorithm is pretty firmly programmed around Lamar Jackson and nerd culture. So I like all of my trending topics for Mandalorian topics is a disaster. There's no way I'm going to go into this pure. And so sure, I miss. I guess I'm saying both, both things are true at once. I don't really fall firmly in either camp.

I enjoy the ability to have this to look forward to at the end of the week and to know that then I can spend my weekend revisiting it, thinking about it. But of course, I mean, especially like, look, one of the reasons I enjoy being here with you two so much is because it makes me think back to the times we spent together watching and talking about Game of Thrones on Sunday night, like a Super Bowl every week. And that aspect of cultivating or trying to approximate the monoculture, I think that there was so much time spent in the wake of Thrones talking about, oh, is the monoculture gone forever? Is there anything that can dominate the conversation to this extent? A lot of people watch the Mandalorian. And, a lot of people really like the Mandalorian. And a lot of people spend a lot of time talking about the Mandalorian, but it's spread out over more days, more hours, more parts of the week. It doesn't happen quite in that same moment where it's eventized in an instant. But it still works for it. And I guess that speaks to the achievement as much as anything else.

So let's do some general takeaways and some general feelings about the last episode. Good well, we can start with you because you watched it most recently. What did you feel at the end of it? Well, I should say this is also really, it's always good to have Mallory here, but it's particularly good because I think that our, we have different levels of midichlorians in our blood

when we react to this stuff. And so I think that we both felt, this is probably an understatement, very positively about the episode. It was a blast. Amazing. I should say, this was like, do you know the part in the movie Contagion

that no one's thought about it all this year for, when I think it's Jennifer Ealy plays the part where she like invents the vaccine and shoots herself up with it and then goes into a room full of the contagion disease to see if it works.

I heard dad's in there. Yeah. So this was my version of that because I have kind of realized about myself and listeners know this over the past few years as there's been a lot of Star Wars content after many years without.

That I think that my antibodies are built up pretty high. So this, this was the ultimate test and seeing Luke Skywalker didn't really have make me feel much of anything. I'll be really honest with you. It didn't. Wow. But it didn't make me dislike the episode. I still really, really enjoyed it because what I've realized at this point is I am tired guys. I'm tired of Skywalker's. I'm tired of all of that business. And one of the things that makes me continue to say that this show is a triumph is because it can have that. And I'm,

I can get it. I appreciate it. I thought it was done well. The part where he's just wailing ass on robot troopers, beautiful and cool. And exactly the opposite of what the beginning of the Phantom Menace was when we were like, we're finally going to see Space Nights in Action and their tax collectors fighting, like, you know, tiny fucking toys. So it was a great antidote for all of that.

But the thing that I realized that I like and respond to is, sorry, Chris, you were right to say it. Vibes. So the vibes of an imperial cruiser and the sound of the blasters and the docking bay and all the little details that the show gets right takes me back to a place when I responded to those things. And I said it from the beginning when we started talking about the Mandalorian, like the sound design. You know, they're following the footsteps of the great Ben Burt and like that gets me. That makes me feel like a kid again, more so than the specifics of we're answering questions you've been holding on to since you were five. And because of that, it's doing something at such a high degree of difficulty that it makes me like it more,

but it makes me respect it even more. I'm going to put a placeholder here because we are not ending this podcast anytime soon, but we're also not ending this podcast without talking about the music of this show and how after the beeps and boops, that's probably the greatest thing about it and maybe even more important to the show than Baby Yoda and it was never more evident than in the finale. Now that I've said my hearsay, Mallory, please take them to church. I have so many follow-up questions. I'm really interested in that answer. I'm curious with the Luke stance, how much of that is what you just hinted at, that you basically have Skywalker fatigue and don't want Star Wars to constantly go back. And that's,

direction. I think, you know, I personally wanted, as I mentioned, when I had the pleasure of joining, joining you gentlemen a few weeks ago and to discuss the Asoka episode, one of the things that I was so excited about, not only having Asoka in live action, which was amazing, and I remained delighted by. But the Thron mentioned, obviously the seeming set up for a spin-off that has since been confirmed. And what that indicated about the continuation of what I'll call the rebels plot, bringing Ezra, Bridger, back into the story, etc.

So I was in the camp of hoping that Ezra would be the Jedi who Grogu reached when he called out through the force on the Seing Stone. I did not think it would be Luke. I was not hoping it would be Luke. I have concerns in general after the sequel trilogy

about the Skywalker connective tissue and the constant need to return to that, especially in the context of a story that is so vibrant and innovative and fresh, often specifically because of the new things that it does. I say that all to say. However, when that X-wing pulled up, I was just floored and awed and absolutely delighted. And seeing Luke was a complete and total thrill for me. even though it wasn't necessarily the thing that I had been anticipating or personally hoping for.

And I think that that ability to execute one of the single hardest things in Star Wars when there is so much evidence, especially in recent years of how that can go wrong. And to absolutely knock it out of the fucking park to call the shot and then actually hit the home run is just an astounding achievement to me. And I think that's where I am with the show overall. I believe that Favreau and Faloni can basically execute anything that they decide to do and not only execute it, but do it at the highest possible level. And in a way that feels completely authentic to the essence of what Star Wars is, what it can be at its best, and what Star Wars fans want in a Star Wars story. I thought the finale was absolutely beautiful and perfect. And then you pair Luke with the Dengrogoo Farewell, which I thought was one of the most beautiful and touching things I'd ever. seen. And I was just absolutely, I was floored by it. I really was. This is cool. I'm right in the

middle. I thought, I didn't know that Luke was coming. I didn't see a spoiler about that. So I actually did say out loud, oh shit. When they were like, there's an X-wing here. And I was like, who's just coming with one X-wing? And I was like, no. You know, it's like, you think of a swamp with that X-Wing? You thought it was wedge? No, I just was like, oh, like, maybe it's the dude from like three episodes ago who was like, you guys shouldn't be on this ice planet. You know, it's cold out. You know, like, I thought, Kim's convenience. Yeah. That guy you eat. But to me, actually, like, I'm right where Andy, with what you said about the details. Like, the thing about this show that blows my mind and that makes me feel like a kid again is when they take the time to show

a tie fighter getting maneuvered in the launch bay. Yes. And being like kind of swung out with its, with its cradle. That to me is like what I used to think about when I was six. You know, it was like, what it's like to work on these ships or what it's like to be the guy who like hits the button very low life expectancy. You must have loved the scene with the angry Death Star pilot.

I loved it. Who just wanted to tell us how wronged he had been. So I think that this show actually has a lot of the same plot mechanics as the sequels, I realized. A lot of it is we have to go to this planet to do a side quest to fulfill a greater mission. But when you think about the difference

between the way the sequels were told, partially because of like the money that was put into them, the amount, like the fact that they were like, we have to make a big blockbuster. But just like the, how rushed it felt, how loud it felt, how busy every frame was, how every scene was somebody running already and shouting, no, no, no, we got to go, we got to go.

Like that was essentially the language of the sequels. When you think about all this space and quiet and economy of the Mandalorian, I just think that this is just way more of my wavelength. Well, but let me jump in there and say, this is not in any way a concern troll. But, you know, the reason why the original Star Wars trilogy works so well, there are many.

But one of the purest, simplest reasons is just as a storytelling exercise, it started from the lowest possible point with Luke as a nobody in a backwater and built him up, up, up, up, up, as he became more powerful and as he learned more and more about the larger world and larger galaxy. The prequels failed for a number of reasons. But I think their challenge was starting from the very, very top because we knew where the story was going and trying to cram it back down to the bottom and build it up again, almost like an accordion. The sequel trilogy was, and I'll say it again here for the permanent record, Last Jedi, really good movie.

But overall, sequel trilogy kind of garbage because it was doing something impossible. It was doomed from the start because it was trying to have it always at once. It was trying to start over from the bottom, but also remind us of the top with the old characters and try to kind of hang out in the mushy middle where the republic is there but the empire is back. And so there's no narrative. You're nowhere. You're trying to do 100 things at once. The non-concern troll, because I agree with both you guys, one of the things that is so impressive

and calming about this series, and maybe, we'll see, maybe Lucasfilm on TV in general, is that the People in charge seem to be proceeding in a very reasonable, thoughtful step-by-step fashion. But the Mandalorian worked from the beginning because that's the thing it stole from the original trilogy, right? Here's a guy at the bottom of the world, basically, in a backwater who doesn't know about Jedi's, doesn't care about the empire. He still doesn't. He was like, who's this guy? That was amazing. I was like, this dude blew up two death stars.

You haven't gotten like an email about this? Exactly. Yeah, he's kept a pretty low profile. profile. And so my, the thing that we're left with here, though, is, is this getting too close to that kind of galaxy brain, literally in this case, where God-like Jedi's are determining the future of the universe? Deus X. Skywalker, right? When the show works best, when it's just a guy in a grungy ship, Eaton Chowder. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think there's a little bit of that armor, for lack of a better term,

built into the plot anyway. This is already a guy who can get punched in the face a hundred times by that droid and just be like, you know, some TMJ, some residual headaches. I wanted to take what you're saying, Andy, and ask you both this question.

Because, Mal, I texted you, I think after we watched, we separately watched. And I was like, oh man, so is that it for Grogo? Is that it for Baby Yoda? They really, they maxed him out And now they're going to send him away for a couple of seasons or maybe he'll pop up here and there. Are you talking about him like he's John Wall?

Like they next him out. That's right. That's right. And then they just traded him away. He's like Kyle Kuzma. He is now eminently tradable because he's signed the extension. But Mal, you text it back, if you don't mind me saying, I wonder if now they'll make the show they always intended to make. Which was very interesting to me because I think on some level I know nothing is left a chance when it comes to a Disney.

plus show about Star Wars. But on the other hand, I don't think that they really had any idea that this was going to turn into the pop cultural phenomenon that it became and that Baby Yoda specifically would become this iconic figure. Even Werner Herzog is like, you got to use the puppet way into shooting season one.

And that maybe season two is a little bit more about like, dude, this thing is fucking adorable. We got to like hang out with him. but that the Mandalorian is actually about like the battle for the soul of Mandalore and the actual planet. And now that we've kind of done the baby Yoda plot, that will almost be like a prequel to what we're about to see. Yeah. So it's a painful thing for me to even contemplate because I'm so attached to Grogu that I don't know how to think about a future version of this show that not only doesn't feature him, but that isn't oriented fully around the bond that has sprung up between din and grogoe,

which again, I think is miraculous and beautiful and very special to me. You got to come to a preschool drop off with me. It's really, it's just a Tuesday, but go on. I've got my little Grogu here with me, you know, and I'll keep him with me always. I love him so much. I think that a few different things are true here at once. go back to the run-up to the debut of season one. Just the fact that baby Yoda was not known,

was not revealed in advance, that that was a complete and total surprise and delight at the end of the premiere, right? And think back to the fact that merch wasn't ready coming off of the premiere. Like, I interpret that in a couple different ways. They knew what they had, and they knew it was going to be special

and they had to keep it under lock and key to try to create something that people could all experience and share it once to the earlier point that you guys were making. But I think that given the way the Mandalorian was initially talked about Favreau's vision, this like grittier,

darker Star Wars, a lot of the different elements at play, even the kind of week-to-week side-quest adventure that's so much of the plot, even after the Grogo Emergences, oriented around. It feels to me like they knew they had something very special in Baby Yoda clearly, but also that he became such a sensation and such a force that even though the Mandalorian

is loved by many, Grogu was bigger than the show in a lot of ways. I think that if you also pair that with Dave Filoni's past Star Wars work, what he did on Clone Wars, what he did with. rebels, the mandolore-centric elements of the canon are his baby, just like Asoka is. That is something that he clearly is deeply interested in exploring. So now, in hindsight, knowing that they parted it at the end of the finale, I think back not only to the Bocahattan, Katie Sackoff elements of the finale, but to her episode, the heiress, the third episode of season two.

And actually when you're considering the math of the season, only eight episodes long, really quite a bit of time that was allocated this season to setting up her character, that simultaneous we can help each other out, but also you're holding the thing I need to rule and you're in my way now element. Mandelor, the stated intention to revive the planet, the culture, the Mandalorian way, not the child of the watch way, but the larger Mandalorian way. Leave our podcast out of it. the role that the Dark Sabre in particular played in this season and in the finale,

it feels to me like that now is where the bulk of the time will be spent, whether we shift to Bo or just to Dinn and Bo together. That feels like it's going to be the big emphasis. But I can't imagine Grogo not being a part of the show. I just can't. I mean, it was definitely intentional when there was an episode without him last week to see how the narrative would feel. I think it's worth noting. And this is the kind of thing that you can really only say in hindsight, but we love to do stuff like this, so we will.

And it reminds me of when we talked about like the flowering of great shows at AMC, like Breaking Bad and Mad Men, that they kind of only happened because AMC was desperate and willing to take chances. And once there is success, of course, you kind of, the mandate, especially in publicly traded companies, becomes just chase the success. Don't take the risk that led to the success in the first place. And looking back, I wonder if we can kind of see something similar. And I'm sure it's not because the, I'm sure this is not entirely accurate, because the machinations of something as large and multi-tentacled as Disney, it can't really be condensed into one medium-temperature take on a Monday podcast. But the moment when Favro was developing this was kind of a perilous moment for the Star Wars franchise and for Disney's investment in Lucasfilm as a whole. the movies, even if they made money, did not leave them in the best position going forward. And there was a lot of questions about what anything would look like.

And that was even before the pandemic made streaming the focus of the entire company, right? And so he could say, not only could he say, I want to make my own style of thing, get out of my way, I'm going to do it this way. Which worked, you know, and there are elements of that initial pitch visible. And I think they're less visible. It's not really a gritty show, but it is kind of old-fashioned in a way that I think might have been noted to death. But the other thing that I came to really appreciate, I think we all did over the first two seasons, was he just had free reign. So he could dip in and out of all the competing threads that make the large woven, I want to say, garment that is Star Wars. You could have the Chowder episode.

You could have the Prison Break episode. You could have Mandalor's rich tapestry of mythology. You could have Asoka. And then you can move on. And the sense that all of that is available for you to play with, especially when you have a central character, who by definition is mobile, right, and can fly anywhere and engage these people as needed. That's a really lucky thing

and a lot to harvest from storytelling. The difference from the last month is every single one of those threads is now its own garment. It is its own show. They are all spin-offs now. And suddenly, what is the show left to be? I was going to tell,

not that listeners need to hear it from me, but enjoy this moment. Because this is the moment where the show might feel the most significant it ever will Luke fucking Skywalker was just on a TV show. And it's the only thing we got in Star Wars right now.

This is it. And we have, that was Mark Hamill with ping pong balls and Irishman's moving and all that. And now and I were talking about this morning. You know, I watched Favreau and Good Morning America on tape. I didn't get up to watch it. But like he was talking about this. And he was more talking about like the secrecy of everybody

worked on the effects and everything being able to not spoil that. And he was like, you know, the fact that we've been able to do that twice once with Baby Yoda once with Luke is just amazing because all the other casting was leaked. It's unclear as to whether he voiced it and they ping ponged somebody else or what happened there.

It was a fully digital creation. I mean, it was spooky. It wasn't. Yeah, it was definitely not. Maybe it would have stood up and clapped if it was, you know, real looking. They did their best. So I will just say, though,

like this is the last moment that it's going to feel like this because pretty soon there will be 10 other Star Wars shows, including the Book of Boba Fett, which was announced this weekend, which Robert Rodriguez is going to do. And it's going to be like, you know,

maybe they won't be on at the same time. Maybe it'll just be there what never won't be a time where there isn't a Star Wars show on. But I think it's going to be a while before anything feels as singular and significant is this because there are no movies in the theaters. There are no other shows. And they took the most valuable, arguably part of those movies

and did a sweep sweep trick on it. You know what I mean? Like that was pretty, that was, that, I don't think they're going to do that again. Also, Mal, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because I think what we're headed towards is they are kind of reverse engineering and endgame here. They're going Avengers with this. Like, that's worked for them and they're going to do it now. But the way they're doing it is so interesting because what we thought was a really unique standalone story actually was just the on ramp to a multi-lane highway that I imagine will now separate for multiple storylines and then probably cross over again.

Like they will bring these threads back together. It does seem like the project isn't, as we naively thought, let's just keep the Star Wars ball in the air for a while and let people have fun with it. Or wouldn't it be cool if we had this side mission. Now the project seems to be the most fertile terrain in Star Wars canon is the 30 years between the trilogies. So let's take a decade and tell that story. I mean, again, Mal, you can speak to this better than I can. But Giancarlo Esposito keeps talking about bringing order.

It keeps saying order, order, order. So I guess we're going to learn why that stupid offshoot is called the first order when we get to the movies that nobody wants to get to. So that seems to be the project here. And I couldn't agree with you more, Chris, that I'm looking forward to many of these. And I can't wait to see what they do because of the sheer talent and vision already displayed. But I think you're right that maybe it won't feel as special as this going forward because Disney's got a Disney. It's what they do. Okay.

I have a few thoughts. In terms of the timeline. Manslorian takes place in nine ABY, right? Nine years after the Battle of Yavin. So we're a half decade after Endor, after the end of the original trilogy. The Luke that we see in this episode is five years older than Jedi. Five years older than he was in Jedi. Okay.

The Yub-Nub song still ringing in his ears. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Force Awakens takes place in 34 ABY. and the destruction of Luke's Jedi Temple, a very concerning thing now to think about, I think we can agree,

is like 28 ABY, all of which is just to say, we still have a couple decades of runway to play with here in the canon. And I'm choosing to focus on that instead of all of the very reasonable points you just made. And some of my own questions along those, lines. Like, it's hard at the end of this, at the end of this season, not to think back to some of the questions we had at the very beginning when Baby Yoda was first introduced. If there's

another force sensitive being, where was he when all of the events that unfolded in the sequel trilogy transpired? Is he dead? Did he turn to the dark side? Where was he when Kathy Kennedy had that successful lunch with Colin Trevereaux and the one with Josh Trank? Like, we need a force sensitive being in the building at Disney. But I think, so here's what I'll hold on to. Amid those questions and concerns. And the palpatine of it all, of course, with the Pershing, Gideon. Well, again, it's, I don't want that to be what the show shifts its focus to.

Certainly, it's, I think, impossible not to wonder when that element will come to play. They were trying to get that blood for something. That's right. They're harvesting that mid-chlorian blood because they're trying to create force-sensitive of beings. Think back to the fourth episode of this season, the mission on Navarro to destroy the imperial base and the tanks full of clone bodies and the pershing message about the body, would the body receive the blood? Would it reject the blood? Gideon's comments in the finale about wanting to study the blood. Like this, it feels to me like that has to be. Maybe there's

another cast of characters coming in that they're trying to give force sensitivity to, but it feels like it's heading that way. I want to say something, and I don't want to sound alarmist, but if this entire project is just to retcon the shitty decisions made and rise of Skywalker, I think I have to give up branded franchise entertainment forever. So what would you pivot to?

I'm just going to continue my descent into French cinema. And I think that the ringer will, I'm sure, support me, both financially and spiritually as I walk down that lonely road. So let me say this to try to calm you. While I think those are all

reasonable things to think about and even anticipate, hopefully on a long time frame. I say this not to shame you, but just to confirm that it's true. When I said to you guys the name Ezra Bridger, you did not know who I was talking about, right? No.

To confirm. Okay. So that's good. That's good news here. Because it's a reminder that the galaxy is really big, actually. And the stories that they can tell inside of it are just as colossal if they want them to be.

And if they are committed to maintaining that dedication to doing something new and original. And that's really, again, why I kind of admired the Luke decision because I think it was a way of saying we can actually do both. We can find ways to make this harmonious with the overall saga and still make something that is totally authentically its own new thing.

Ezra, I won't spoil Star Wars rebels for people who haven't watched it. I would encourage you to watch it is phenomenal. Is much like Asoka, a titanically consequential Star Wars figure. and a force-wielder who has not been brought into this larger story. That could still be the case, too, for Grogo. Maybe Grogo and Ezra are out there kicking it up to what? Who knows?

I'm sure we'll get the chance to find out. It doesn't necessarily have to be through the lens of what ultimately unfolded in the sequel films. That's what I'm holding on to. They are probably, I'm going to make a guess. Tell me if this is right or not. I think they're investigating what was really up with Snoke. Like when O.J. was saying he was going to spend the rest of his life finding out

who really killed Nicole. like that's what they're going to that's what they're doing and if that's what they're up to godspeed i'm going the other way i'm all in on palp i want to find out good that's a good pivot how it all came together for him what what like he eats for dinner on that like no prison planet Chris what you want is the disney pluse a pre-dark channel yeah that's kind of like cinemax that shows palpatine's kids just banging and creating ray like you want dark Sith sex that's cool that's cool Admit it. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul

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I want to ask a couple of questions just specifically about this episode because I have some. I have some questions I was wondering about. And Mal or Andy can jump in here. Maybe I would love to hear from both of you on these. Dr. Pershing. You're basically throwing the alley up to Mal

and my job is to comment like goal tend. No, because I think we have like a think tank and a populist here, right? So I want to hear from both the Academy and the streets. Okay. Dr. Pershing. flipped a little too easily like he was just like

oh am I captured let me definitely give you the layout for the entire ship and also his plan he was very helpful cold storage for the dark troopers so is he like a geneticist against his own will

I'm eager to learn more about him I think it's important for us to remember that we are still you know to Andy's point about the first order we're still waiting for a little more structure around this this whole endeavor and we're still in the moment of the imperial remnant, these little isolated factions.

Like, we don't, with Gideon still, we have a lot to learn about what Mof Gideon is doing exactly how much of what he's doing is for a master that he is serving, how much of it is for his own ends. Again, the dark saber comes into play there. He's kind of a Tommy Tuberville of space, if you will. You know what I mean? He's a conduit for forces that are beyond our recognition at this moment, but they're definitely dark. Pershing fits into that too because we have a lot to learn about is this somebody who is just driven

by the scientific pursuit of the old Camino cloning lab endeavors or is he truly loyal to the cause? Is he driven by ideology? I don't think we've seen anything from him that indicates that that's true. So maybe the second he gets out of the grip.

You know, he showed a lot of concern, actually, for Grogu and season one, if you think back to the moments when Mandoz sprung him on Navarro, he was like, he's just a child, you know, seemed despite harvesting his blood to the extent that you can express concern about a little 50-year-old baby when you're harvesting his blood, he seemed concerned about his well-being. So I don't know. The other question I had was, why is John Carlos Spizito's character alive? Why did they keep him alive for those last three seeds?

First, he has a Besscar spear pointed at his throat. And he's just like, ooh, you're going to keep me alive. Then they take him to the bridge. At the first chance he gets, he grabs a blaster to try and shoot the cutest thing in the entire galaxy. That was tough. They're like, don't you do that? Then he tries to take himself out. And they knock the blaster out of his hand.

What is the plan for this guy? And is this really just an insurance policy against not actually having an antagonist in this show? In each scene, you see, if you rewatch them closely, you can pause it and see the moment where his eyes have already started to make plans for the flight he's booked on to Toronto to shoot the boys. Or like to go back to Albuquerque. And he's like, oh, no, no? I'm still here. I, look, I mean, I've said this before. I think it's a bummer that he's a villain on three major shows concurrently.

It's just kind of not doing him or anybody any favors. The role of an antagonist on the show is very odd because no, and I think, you know, Mallory, you can speak to this. There's not a ton of genuine peril on the show. You know, our friend Mando has impenetrable armor. Everybody on the good guy's side who gets shot with a blaster seems fine. Everybody who is near a blaster on the bad guy's side dies instantly. So having someone who carries some weight.

A proud Star Wars tradition, to be fair. True. But also, as Chris, as you said, like, Moff Exposition is also quite useful. They still have, like, U.S. Civil War tactics for the stormtroopers. Just like, just run right into that. Yeah. They have Washington generals tactics. They just get dunked on repeatedly.

So I guess I would say that I wouldn't be sorry to see him go, but I think the show probably does need the embodiment of some antagonism to function. Well, the coolest step forward for the show would be if the Mandalorian himself was the antagonist. Or, you know, like if there was basically the conflict is between Bo Catan and Mandalorian. And they sort of set that up where it's just like you can't have this sword unless you beat him in a baton. this sword. How dare you refer to the Dark Sabre that way? Oh, my God. I'm appalled. I think that the reason they kept him alive in the finale was to stir the shit and do exactly that, to insert himself in between Dinn and Bo and then try to widen that gap as quickly and dangerously as he could.

You know, to do a very quick canon digest here to the extent that this context is helpful for, to the extent that this context is helpful for people. Bo Catan, when she had the Dark Saper before, which she has referenced on the Mandalorian, was given it by another person, received it directly from Sabine Wren who gave it to her

in Star Wars rebels as clan after clan of Mandalorians pledged their allegiance and she ignited it above her head and they all bent the knee and it was thrilling and awesome. But she took it from another person and was fine with it then.

So, Why is that not okay now? Is it because she has since lost it? Is it because she lost it to Gideon, a non-mandelorian, during the purge, this event that, while we still have a lot to learn about it, we know as this decisive moment in the history of Mandelor, perhaps, you know, we got that line from Gideon in the episode, right? In the finale, the dark tape herself doesn't have the power, though it is like very dope, to be clear. The story around it does.

So maybe she's just focused on exactly how she can call. cultivate the power of the story again in a way that works best for her, clearly taking it from Dinn, who pulled his best John Snow, I don't want it, wasn't going to work for her, right? So I don't know if we're now heading toward kind of a quintessential classic fantasy tale where Dinn has no interest in ruling, no interest in that kind of life, and ultimately finds that, again, in the mold of John and Harry and many others, actually what makes him well suited for it, or if he genuinely just...

Or Harry Giles, former Sacramento Kings, now Portland Trailblazers passing Big Man. Yeah, Harry Giles, that was who I meant. Anyway, you get the point. I want to talk a little bit more broadly to kind of circle back to where we were in the beginning of this conversation. And that is that, you know, we've come off the back of a couple of weeks of announcements culminating with the end of season two of the Mandalorian, the announcement that there will be another show with Book of Boba Fett

when that gets a blockbuster-esque post-credits tag. There you go. That was a guy that I always thought seemed pretty cool and also had a very definitive ending, had a cool cameo, and then has become like a supporting character on the Mandalorian, and now we'll get his own show. I personally do not know like what's at stake for that guy

or like what the unfinished biz is. It seems like he settled his gambling debts with Fandul there on the Tatouine and just got to take that seat. But it was like a symbol of an even more interesting thing. Over the course of the last 10 years or so as what we would sort of define as nerd culture has become popular culture,

has become mainstream culture. What do you guys think about the saturation factor? And the idea that, you know, we had already seen a lot of these movies, movies and a lot of these stories sort of take over at the box office and in mainstream and movie theaters. But I was looking at a list of of 2021 shows and Andy and I will get to that at some pod in the near future. And a lot of them, if they weren't specifically already tied to Marvel or Star Wars, could be. You know what I mean? Like in name, everything but in name only. It's like a group of

girls discover they have superpowers and a government agency tries to chase them down. Like it is, it is a lot of variations on these kinds of stories. For people who love them, which the three of us are, is there a point where like you need a little bit? Yeah, they seem super hyped. No, but I'm asking, is there a point where there needs to be more variety in life than these stories?

Well, I mean, yeah, and hopefully there will be. I think what's interesting about this moment is the first two seasons of the Mandalorian were kind of laying, a marker that they know how to do this. You know, it does carry with it. And I got to give more credit to John Favreau here because this is the same kind of marker he laid down with the MCU, although it took some time to figure it out. And I think the Russo brothers and what are the script writers, Yost and the Dukes-Roehl? Marcus and McPhile. Markis and McPhile, yeah, sorry. I was thinking

of another comic book writer, Christopher Yost. Anyway, they kind of figured it out and they obviously went to town on it. But there's something similar at play here, where do I think, am I personally interested in more Boba Fett stories? No, I'm good. I'm good. Because as we've said repeatedly over these weeks, he was a cool costume that over the years after the movie ended, I think fandom injected a lot of hopes and dreams into. Was I happy to see this return engagement? Yeah, it was cool.

And I was joking with Chris last night. I still believe it. I'm super into Tamir Morrison's comeback. I'm into finding out the timeline between when he was told he needed to get back to Tatooine and when he showed up to set. because he is rocking the most incredible return of the Jedi mullet. You know what I mean? In that he is just like all battle ready up top and pure Jabba below.

And it's kind of amazing. I think that we all should age as gracefully into middle bounty hunter age. But the thing at the end was such a perfect example of like what this project is doing and also the risks inherent in it. Because returning back to Jabba's den, having Bib Fortuna, a character that I've always really loved for no good reason.

Amazing. Getting fat and old because he's just sitting on the throne and is unguarded and unprotected. Fantastic. And then having Boba reclaim this throne and then having Ming Nguyen, who's phenomenal actors of a great career,

love seeing her have this. Top five ER character. Without question. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. Also underrated in Mike Figgis' one-night stand, I believe, where she was married to Wesley Snipes. But anyway,

what she did in that scene was really interesting because it was essentially fan service to all fans, right? She sort of is cool as F. She's like gun these people down. She's freed the slave girl. She grabs the space wine and she takes a big, lusty pirate swig. And I'm like, oh, is that who she is?

Because that's not who she's been. You know, this is not consistent with characters we've seen thus far on the Mandalorian, but is this a nod towards what this new Boba Fett show that no one really asked for, but we're getting regardless as going to be with Robert Rodriguez helming it. Okay, cool. But we'll have to see.

And they've earned our trust to see where it's going. But I don't think that was reflective of any show we've seen thus far. I have a lot of thoughts on everything you just said. The first of which is just that you are right to mention Christopher Yost, who wrote Thor the Dark World and Co-Roe Ragnarach. So just wanted to mention that. Yes, right. He did write those movies.

Yeah. To the Boba point specifically, it's another good, reason to go back to the pre-season 1 Mandalorian days and remember that there was a boba project that had been announced before it was pulled back and this was something actually that people were excited for. And I actually kind of think that's part of what makes it cool and fun that they did it in this way because it does feel like more. I mean, look, I don't want to be a naive asshole here. It's, they're generating a ton of IP and a ton of money. But within that, it feels like something that sprung up through the process of making the Mandalorian, like, oh, yeah, we can actually do this well.

And then if you think about not only how, okay, seeing Boba Fett, you know, learning how he had emerged from the Sarlac pit and seeing him pursue his armor again and then seeing him actually donned it and the thrill of that and then hearing, you know, and how fulfilling that actually was because it's something Star Wars fans have waited for for a long. time and wondered about. And then you pair that with the line that he uttered in the episode that centered around, you know, we caught a glimpse of his face in the first episode of the season, the Marshall, but centered around his return. You know, she was left for dead on the sands of Tatooine, as was I, but fate sometimes steps in to rescue the wretched. I'm kind of into that, actually, as the foundational idea for another spinoff. And I think that, you know, that gets more broadly to the point that is at the heart of Chris's question. The thing that you just described, like, well, what are the stakes really?

Right. What are we watching, really? Is also the thing that you loved about the beginning of the Mandalorian. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great point. That's a great point. That can still be really fun.

I don't think it's actually, I don't really need everything to end with the Death Star exploding. I'm just curious about like, it's just like any other addiction. You know, it's like, at a certain point, like, your tolerance for it becomes so high. So at this point, right now, I'm like, give me. Loki, give me Rangers of the New Republic, give me Cassie and Or, give me Obi-on, give me, I just saw a tweet that said, Kevin Feigey says the She-Hulk show is going to be a half-hour legal comedy. Fine. Do it, man. You know, like, whatever. But is, do you, do you run the risk of a little bit of an overdose? And do you run the risk of, like, constantly having to make these calculations

in your head where it's like, I like this because it is a samurai show or because it is a legal, comedy or because it is a Western. And it's like, well, maybe does that then come at the expense of all these other things? You know what I mean? Well, two quick comments. One is let me just for a moment be the prestige TV French cinema cliche that I am and say that the interesting thing for me about the Boba Fett series was contained in the moment when Bocatan's like, I've heard your voice a thousand times before coming from other people. So the idea of the dude being actually a dude, but there's thousands of him. That's kind of interesting. That's what the Clone Wars is. You should watch it. It's great. Can you picture him staring into a mirror in Boba Fett's Palace being like, I'm not a bad man, I'm a thousand bad men? I mean, this is this is like HBO stuff. That's great. The second thing is, Chris, what you're talking to, this is going to be the macro story to follow over the next few years. It was going to be the case regardless because of Disney's big push into streaming, but it's hastened by the pandemic, both because of the quantity of shows, the way we relate to them, the huge subscriber numbers, and the fact that all.

all the movies are now bottlenecked for the next year, which is when movies literally become TV, we have very different expectations for the delivery system and the frequency of the delivery system. There are financial reasons why Kevin Feige spaced the movies out as he did over the decade that it took to tell that story. But also, that was a good way to do it because there wasn't overkill. There was allowed to be sort of an engagement process, then a come down, then be the next hit. And he was a very effective stringer bell in that, in the way that he was.

he parceled it out. With TV, we're getting all of it all the time. And one of the reasons why they're doing it and one of the ways they hope to get away with it is to say, like, well, we're not trying to get the person who's the end game completis. We're trying to get people who like legal comments. And we're trying to get people who like teen shows. Or people who like cute baby yodas. But the appetite for, dare I say, at binging as a mode is buried deep now, right? That is implanted the same way that the, sort of the Bill Gates surveillance technology is implanted in other things, but that's for a different podcast, right, guys? Right, Senator Joni Ernst? The point being, how do they manage that?

When, and this happens in comic books, so people who read comic books know this. Like, you know, I was super excited for the new Jonathan Hickman run of X-Men until suddenly there's a crossover that's part two of 22. And I'm like, sorry, I'm out. And I wonder if the similar thing could happen when you're like, I'm here for Asoka and I'm here for She-Hulk, and I'm good. And then Big Papa Bear Chapx, like, nope, you're here for all of it or you're here for none of it. Well, I think that the MCU is still the best model and template off which to build in that sense. Because, you know, one of the things that FIGI has spoken about a lot over the years and really identified as core to this propulsive engine is that genre variance.

You know, Captain America, the First Avenger, is a period piece in a war movie. But Captain America, the Winter Soldier, is a political thrill. It's the parallax view, right, Chris? And Ant Man is a heist movie, and on and on the list goes, right? And clearly, like, how is Loki the Disney Plus series being presented? It's a spy thriller, a crime thriller. So you have the choice to opt into the part of that that is most interesting to you and that resonates the most fully for you.

It will be most rewarding probably if you're consuming it all. That's when all of the connective tissue will really not only attach in a line, but home, I think that, Andy, your point about not only do you reach a moment, but maybe how prevalent are those moments where you feel almost like the barrier to entry is just too high because of the stuff that the information that you're expected to absorb and hold on to the number of characters and timelines that you're expected to be familiar with. I personally, it'll shock you to hear. I'm very excited about all of this and am delighted, truly delighted, by. the prospect of not only more time with the characters and stories that I already am invested in and care about, but filling in a lot of these things exist in gaps. You know, the gaps in the timeline, the areas that are, you know, the Obi-1 show actually is like kind of, I think, most emblematic of this. There are a few characters that people know better than Obi-1 Canobee, right? As established as anyone in Star Wars lore, from the original exposure to Star Wars and a new hope,

to the prequels, to his role in Clone Wars, Rebels, novelizations, comics, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Ultimately, his spinoff is being set in a period of time that we don't know that much about. Now, it's going to be short, it's going to be contained. I personally still wanted to be set in a different period of time and a love story between Obi-1 and the Duchess Sotene, but it's not up to me.

I will consume... Mallory after Dark. Six episodes with gleam. in delight because I'm interested in learning more about the missing years of his life, the parts that we've only glimpsed and fits and starts. I think it's just been, it'll be an interesting case study of the two modes of attracting an audience that have sort of come into conflict each other over the last 10 years. I think you can either find success by getting a lot of engagement from a smaller amount of people, or you can find success by getting a small amount of

engagement from a ton of people, you know, and it's the difference between like a Big Bang Theory fan and a Game of Thrones fan, right? I mean, although Game of Thrones crossed over, I think, with more casual fandom ultimately. But, like, which is the better model for TV? And I think generally, with some exceptions that have been, you know, allowed to succeed because of the circumstances of a subscription service

or the cost of the episodes, the hyper-programming, micro-targeting just for specific engaged fandom can work. But generally, TV works, has worked best when you're just trying to cast as wide an editist, possible, right? And hope you can get some casual fans involved. And I'm really curious how this plays out. I remain hopeful. I think that this show satisfied somebody with this specific and deeply

rooted interests in the story as Mallory and people like you and me, Andy, who have like a passing awareness of what's happened outside of the movies that we've seen. But, you know, maybe moments like Boketan hit harder for Mallory. I still found myself like my favorite moment from this season, is still the Asoka introduction, and I didn't know anything about Asoka. So I think it can operate at a couple of different levels. We can wrap it up there. I think this was just a really,

really interesting show to talk about as much as it was a show to watch and to be entertained by. So just to check in, Mallory, can you help us with two points? Two things that I wasn't really sure about. One, before we wrap up, there was some confusion with the post-credits thing

about the Book of Boba Fett. Do we think he's a big reader? by the way? Or did he write the book? Yeah, that's a good point. Right. Like, did, I was, you know, is Boba still just plugging away at short fiction, even though the market seems to have been dried up and it's like, where there's not that we can go to plow shares, Paris Review. I think that he's resentful because he's like, well, you dummies were like toiling over MFA's in Iowa, I was inside of a monster's stomach. I mean, like, I lived life. But you guys were thinking about it. Yeah, that's right. Real fodder for a memoir.

But there was something. Kind of like his own left bank, right? I think so. Well, or his left ventricle, depending where he was inside of the creature. So this bubbled up on my timeline, and I'm not sure if it was verified, but I think there was some people thought

that this was going to be Mandalorian season three, that Pedro Pescal, maybe there was some sort of contract dispute, that that storyline was going to be sidelined for a year. Can you speak to that? Was there any truth in that? Was there any rumors about that?

And why was there any truth? there's such confusion other than the fact that it just was at the end of the credits? So I did find myself thinking about that a lot over the weekend, had a fascinating conversation with our colleague Arjuna where he speculated, this was his theory. Okay, well, they're calling it the book of Boba Fett and how is every episode of the Mandalorian title, it's a chapter, right? So maybe this is the next, this Mandalorian becomes an anthology show and the next couple seasons will be about Boba and then maybe after that we shift to Boketan.

I think that as of today, the official Star Wars Twitter account tweeted that basically this is its own show. The Book of BobaFat, a new original series is how they framed it. So it does seem to me that it's going to be its own show. That announcement also specified set within the timeline of the Mandalorian, which is the same language that we heard about the two other Mando spinoffs. So I think that the Mandalorian will continue featuring Dyn, Endor, Bogatan, and other characters and that Boba Fett's show will be running in parallel, but will be its own show.

That's my sense of it as of Midday Monday. And this won't be, thank you for that, and this won't be the last time we talked to you, of course, until then, but do you know what is the next Star Wars content being hooked up to our IVs? is it, do we have a, is it Cashinandor, is it Obi-Wan? Has anything been confirmed, or is just that we know that a lot of us... So apparently they have been shooting Book of Boba-Fet for a while, right? I think that was in the deadline piece about that.

Yes. So that's coming in December of 2021, right? And I wonder whether that was how Robert Rodriguez was available to come in at last minute to fill in on Mandalorian. Because that would make a little bit more sense than, I was shooting Spy Kids Five, and then they just asked me to do, direct the Mandalorian and I was like, sure. Like if he was working on Boba and they were like, can you come over here and shoot something

with the same characters? These things have a much longer lead time than they let us know about. I believe that at least based on currently publicly available information, it seems that the Mandalorian season three and the Boba Fetcher are going to release around the same time. In December. But is, do we have any sense if it's anything coming before that? I guess we don't have confirmation because because of the pandemics, Kesh and Endor was like supposed to start filming before. Now it just started filming in London.

They recently started filming the Obi-Wan show. That should have been done by now, but they had redone the script. So we don't know. Right. We don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if Cassie and Andor comes out. I could see something sneaking in. In the fall. Yeah.

Summer or fall. Yeah. It feels like December is a long time to wait for another. I think everyone just flew to London to film it. And from what I understand, no one is leaving London anymore. So they could really hunker down. That's another thing that worth mentioning is that we really do not. No, we have no idea.

Mal, thank you so much for joining us on the watch. Just an absolute delight to be here with you. And just know that through the screen, I'm reaching out with my little claw to touch your cheeks. To touch Andy's cheek? Yeah. And coo at you and let you know how much I love you and being here with you. Mallory, this is the way.

It really is. Bye, guys. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items, then review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver it in as little as 30 minutes. So you can feel confident it's what you ordered. Fresh groceries, your way with Ralph's delivery and pickup.

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