The Watch - Breaking Down the Penultimate Episode of 'Succession'

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the penultimate episode of 'Succession,' "Church and State." They talk about Roman's breakdown at the funeral, the use of language in this episode (1:00), how the kids continue to grieve Logan by trying to become him (26:34), and how this episode is similar to the "Ozymandias" episode of 'Breaking Bad' (39:01). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew,

the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

And I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he's got some good hard takes. It's Andy Greenwald. I was hoping you'd call that out. I almost screenshot it and was going to talk about how the show was going to pivot to podcasting. That was a great reaction to you in Zulogy. Andy, today we were talking about the funeral episode of Succession, the penultimate episode of one of our favorite shows of all the shows that we've talked about on this podcast.

I believe Succession would be pretty high up there, hence why we dedicate so much time to it. As a penultimate episode goes, I would say the ending of this series hit me in a way. In this episode, the way it didn't when Logan passed away. I think that there was something a little bit like, where could this thing go and what's a foot? And as we wound down this episode, I was like, oh, man, this is the second last time I'm going to see most of these people in one room together. Was there a moment when you felt keenly your George Pelicano's damage from five seasons of the wire where you thought that Roman wandering into the riot was going to result in some sort of like shock death? You know what? There's been some Roman's going to get killed or Roman's going to die chatter.

And I was just like you guys aren't watching the same show. And then he hops the barricade and I'm like, this dude is going to back the blue into oblivion. Is this really going to happen? but he just kind of like staggers off like the Joker. Yeah, but it is again, it's a sign of how expertly this show plays off of our TV brain and our expectations and even our late game understanding of what the show that we're watching is and has been. For me, like, look, there were, I was clearly shaken a little bit last week.

You know, I redoubled my commitment to supporting moderate Democratic candidates throughout the deep south. A lot of attorneys general races that I've been following now that have really leapt up in my email box. But broadly, I don't think I was as... Look, I like everything about the show and I like everything about the season. I don't think I was as bullish on that episode

as some of the post-Sunday-night chatter seem to be. For me, this was the one. I loved this episode. And partly because it was more in tune with, I think, the emotional currents of the show, which is what I think Jesse Armstrong really excels at, other than finding unique ways to put interrogative fucks into the middle of American sentences. I just thought this was a stunning gut punch of an episode that continued some of the, like, deep,

disquieting feelings of last week and really the whole, the season as a whole, but brought them to roost in the core of the characters in the way that I was really struck by. Yeah, if last week was about, this is what's wrong with America, this week is, this is what's wrong with these people. I thought it was among the more probing, maybe not probing, but explicative psychological episodes of the show. Because I think we, if you were ever like, why Shiv like that? Yes. You get to find out when she talks to her mother. As it turns out, the call is not coming from Michigan or Wisconsin. The call is coming from within inside the house.

And it's not great. And I'm interested to hear you say that you felt the ending of the show because for me, I think I agreed with you. and obviously we'll get into the specifics of the episode. But my strong feeling from this episode was two-track. One, these characters have a lot more in them. And this could go on, this actually could go on for much longer. Oh, yeah. But this is a moment where I think that Jesse made a really interesting decision,

which is he's not making a show about the full scope of the lives of these characters. He is making a show about a particular cultural and emotional moment on earth. And he's going to be content, I think, to walk away with it as that, you know. And the perhaps labored analogy that I would like to offer to you, Chris, and I know that we're recording internationally, you probably only had two or three cups of tea and the sun is setting. It's a question of how to use your ingredients. He has, in his larder, some of the best ingredients,

you will ever get in Hollywood. Like these actors, these characters, this writer's room, this production design, this budget. And he's choosing to just cook them. He's making a meal. And he's going to serve the meal

and then he's going to walk away. He's not going to let the ingredients wither in a bowl on his counter and be like, boy, I really bought good produce this week and then not do anything with him. He's going to do it. And it's going to be final

in a way that does feel jarring because, God, there's depths. There's still depth here with these people, even after four years. You know, Kieran Kolkin gave that interview a few weeks ago, maybe after the Norway episode. I can't remember exactly which one.

And he was like, we didn't really know it was the last season. And then Jesse was like, it could be the last season. And then at the table read, he basically apologized that it was the last season, but was also like, here's the pitch for season five, but never mind. You know, like that there would be, it was actually a very succession-y conversation the way it sounded. Yeah. And, you know, there's this crucial moment in this episode that we're talking about

where Kendall comes up to Roman and Logan's him. He's just like, you fucked him. You fucked it. And he basically, like, you wanted your dad to come out of that coffin. Surprise, bitch. Here I am. You know what I mean? He's like, I did.

I jumped up out of it. And he's like, you fucked it. And now you're going to be, honestly, the same thing he says to Hugo. You're going to be my dog. and he rubs him on the back of the head like a dog or like a child. And he's just like, why don't you go clean up partially the mess that you've made and you're out of the big leagues now. You're getting yanked.

And there's a version of that where Roman goes, fuckety, fuck, fuck, and then does a dance and slides over to Mankin and tries to do something or kind of just exit stage left. But the following Roman out the door and following him into a, oblivion to me is like where we get into endgame here and where we're like, okay, you don't want to just constantly yakety yak it and have these kids start from zero only to get to a point of betrayal, only to go back to a point of trusting one another, only to go back to a point of it. Like we're going somewhere here. And, you know, I don't know if we're going to go somewhere

where someone has to die for it to feel final or for it to feel momentous. I have a feeling of where it's going just because of what they're setting Kendall up to be. But I also am willing to be surprised. I'm certainly open to being surprised. I think it's your right to focus on the Roman stuff even as we get into the beats of the episode because it begins with him and it ends with him. And I think one thing that his fuckety fuck-fuck-fuck-isms have obscured, not just for those around him in the world, but for the audience that have grown to love

what crazy thing he's going to say. next, like jerking off to his sister breastfeeding as yet unborn nephew. What all of that obscures is that he's the baby. He's the baby of this family. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way, but like he is the youngest. And, you know, this is two only children just talking about stuff they know super well. But I think that, you know, stereotypically, the youngest can be the most emotionally tender or most emotionally vulnerable in a family, maybe without a fixed role to play.

and you can see that going down that row at the funeral that Connor kind of knows what he is. Kendall, it's getting uglier, but it's true what Kendall is and always has been and is becoming. The Shiv piece, the Missoula piece, we're going to pause, we're going to separate for a second, because I do want to get more in depth with that because that was the other major plank of the episode. But Roman, you know, it's pretty, consistent. He wanted to be loved by his father. He wanted something so badly that was never going to come and was utterly impossible. And he wanted to be loved by him so much. He installed a fascist as the president of the United States. And what did that get him? You know, it was pretty brutal. It was very hard to watch, you know, in a different way. When I say it, it, I mean, his emotional breakdown was brilliantly played by Kieran Culkin. bravely played by Kieran Culkin because you just got the sense

that they just ran tape, you know, that they just kept it going. Yeah. In that big room in front of a lot of people, including like noted New York stage actress Hope Davis, who's just in the episode, Wheeling noted stage actor Larry Binds.

Is Stewie not in this episode? Was he the only guy who wasn't in this episode? That is such a great. But like, who was the line producer who was like, you know what, I'm sorry? Like we just, you know, we're paying. Was Adrian Brody still doing reshoots? an asteroid city or something?

We couldn't get him in there? It's a great question. Anyway, it was hard to watch in a very different way than last week was, I think, even though it felt earned and inevitable. And it's just the damage done, you know? What would you have done? This episode was a lot about the family damage that passes down, and it all dumped in the youngest's lap.

Speaking of family damage, what would you have done if, like, camera pans left or a little, like, handheld zag left? And it's like Sandy and Sandy and the C-suite people, Mattson, and then it's like James Dolan, Tom Thibodeau, Julius Randall, Jaylon Johnson. Just heads bowed,

Obie Toppin. Yeah. There's one thing we can't defend and that's death. You're pitching a very, very strong alt. I feel like Derek Rose is available for this, right? Like there's definitely some... He knows all about sitting on benches, you know?

Okay. All right. All right. I have no reason to take it. Just what are we slandering the Knicks to... feel a good story for a city that just lost a tight name media. Look, I'm bitter. I'm deflecting. Do you want me to run through this episode a little bit here? I do. First of all,

great setup, though. I really thought you were going to start naming people who we thought were going to be on the show more like Sanah Lathan, you know, and be like, does she checking back in? Holly Hunter? She get an invite? No? She couldn't get on the ex-wives club pew? That was a great pew. We got to talk about that. All right. So despite the election night backstabbing, the kids are due to the kids are back together due to the circumstances of Logan's funeral. Roman is preparing

to deliver his keynote speech at the funeral. Shiv is plotting to get the Gojo deal through with Matzon. Some call it a eulogy. In the world of business, we call it keynote. Yes, please go on. And Kendall is dealing with the professional fallout from his personal decisions or the personal fallout from his professional decisions. He's also

feeling some abandonment as Roba skips out on the funeral for security reasons and Jess requests a job change for fascism reasons. Pretty much every cast member of note is president at the funeral, including the president, Mattson, Sandy and Sandy, all of Logan's exes, except for Holly Hunter and the whole sweet. Shiv and Kendall are maneuvering to find the favor of president pending elect, Jared Mankin. Yeah, maybe. With Schiv hoping to become the American CEO of Waystar, Gojo, whatever, because Mankin wants

to buy American, I guess. He doesn't trust Europeans. Yeah. Kendall is kind of lining up the Logan Roy All-Stars with Hugo and Coms and Colin, I guess literally and figuratively back in the driver's seat. And it turns out Roman's not ready for his close-up. And he has a nervous breakdown during the eulogy. Kendall again steps up and like the Living Plus presentation, uses his father's death as a bridge to his own future, very much carving a great man image for himself as he's celebrating the quote-unquote great man that was his father. father. Shiv speaks from the heart, but who knows what that means anymore. By the way, it is amazing that the kids, even in that moment of intense grief or whatever it is,

are trying to both sides. They're trying to run oppo research on their uncle. And at a postgame drinks, Kendall confronts Roman and tells him he's busted back down to private after fucking up both the funeral and the presidential election. Shiv locks down her job offer from Mattson to become the CEO of a prospective new company. And Roman reacts to everything. by running through a gauntlet of protesters and hobbling into the night like the Joker. There are lots of good little moments that we're going to be discussing here,

including Tom and Shiv, and, you know, all the ladies sitting together, Carrie getting her moment with Marcia. But where do you want to start? Do you want to start with Shiv? Actually, I have something I'd like to bounce off of you. Yeah. Did this episode sound like any other episode of Succession to you?

In terms of dialogue or in terms of... I thought that the language, used in about 35 to 40% of the episode, largely the public speaking moments, was strikingly theatrical and almost anachronistic in terms of its vocabulary and its delivery and its staging. And I had a couple of ideas about that. Some are obviously like, it's always been called a Shakespearean show. I think that Kendall's, the opening line of his eulogy is almost a word-for-word rewrite of, I guess you can't have a word for a word for a It's a spin on the eulogy of Caesar from Julius Caesar, essentially.

You know, Shiv says something like, but when the sun did shone... When the sun shunsh, yeah. Yeah. And Ewan's eulogy was obviously, like, basically like a 19th century political oration. What did you make of the language of this episode? Well, when you first asked that, I actually was thinking something different, which was there were some pockets of silence in the episode that fell. It felt noisy to me.

Usually this is a show, look, it is written by writers who love to write, who love to write words for these actors who are so brilliant at performing them. And, you know, the role of language on the show is currency when you're that rich and money is meaningless. Whenever they look at the mausoleum, it's like 5 mil, good deal. Yeah, I love that. The actual world. A pet, an online pet store delivery guy? Yeah. So there were some moments, particularly I feel like when Marcia took Carrie's hand, it stood out to me, that the show let the silence win, that that are actually were these bizarre, considering the pairing and the usual lack of humanity in a lot of these characters, it just let the humanity be there for a moment.

And I thought that was appropriate and kind of graceful, but also significant, right, that the words had fallen away. And we've talked about this throughout the season when we thought in three they had reached the limits of their language. It turns out there's a different, there's another level that I think we could talk about when we get to the eulogies. Because I think there was a really interesting mix of the Globe Theater and the therapist's office at play. And one thing that is true, Chris, and I say this to you, podcaster to podcaster, is that talking is very, very seductive. it is very hard to stop when someone asks you to say something, you know, or someone asks you how you're feeling or ask you the right questions. Like, people want to talk to someone else.

And that's what I thought was so interesting, contrasting the kids, well, not when I can't say all the kids, Kendall and Shiv's speeches. Because Kendall took the opportunity to be in a big room in front of people who expected something from him and were looking to him to perform. And it was absolutely Shakespearean. And I think that that, you know, you could say, like, well, would this guy who doesn't read any books that aren't about how to murder your business enemies

would get access to this kind of language? This is the same guy who was like, this is just to say, yo. Exactly. So was this out of character? Maybe. But I also do not begrudge Jesse stunting a little bit because he's been building up to this moment

and he has this in his tool. Well, it's just like, you know, you see all sorts of situations where public figures that you wouldn't normally consider the most learned or maybe most well-read, probably have somebody write their speech for them. And when they deliver a eulogy or they're quoting ecclesiastes, like, it's the back of their hand. And you're like, is that one really right at the top of the dome like that for you?

But this one, like The Living Plus, was apparently improv. So he always has a backup career, you know, working in Boom, Chicago and Amsterdam or something. Well, I mean, another example of Sean Carter being a huge influence on Kevin Roy, just puts the pen down. Indeed. And it flows. But so he looks to it as an opportunity to be, to perform. And I thought Shiv looked at it as an opportunity to dump, to confess, to, you know,

it was so interesting watching these kids be unable to avoid the truth when they are not speaking in their club of coded fuck language. You know what I mean? Like the picture painted of Logan by all. of these kids and his brother is pretty brutal. And, you know, I don't know if, like, there were some New York Magazine Society reporters in the back of the room, but I'd be very curious what the coverage of the event would be. But, yeah, the way she talks about him is right. I bet there would be an Olivia Nuzzi piece about, you know, the real scene at the Roy funeral.

But, but she, so Schiff's speech begins with, like, them playing outside of his office, right? Yeah, I mean, it's just like she, like how the kids were always on the outside, you know, but everybody was on the outside, but when you got let in and the sun shined, like you would feel special and he did okay. I mean, that is the maybe in the top three most self-aware things anyone on the show has ever said, and it's not what she thinks it is.

So I was really struck by that in the sense that we joked and we've not joked about how unsuited to quote-unquote real life these characters are. You know, they're in their hermetically sealed bubble, just dining on Orde-on and fucking each other over. But anytime they're thrust out of that, whether it's speaking to people who are quote-unquote normies or getting elbowed in the face by an Antifa protester, they don't do well. They don't do well at all. And just the broken pieces just come pouring out.

Yeah. So let's talk about the three different speeches briefly. I would just say about you, and you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong, because we do operate a little bit on short time when we're doing. these reaction pods somewhat. Has the story about Logan's sister dying of polio that he thought he gave her ever really been stated on the show before? No, I think the lost sister has, but the guilt. That's who he's calling for when he has his UTI, right?

I believe so. I believe so. That would the cat. I prefer the medical term piss madness still, but no, thank you for. Yeah, we hadn't heard it. I mean, it was so, again, my main takeaway from these last two weeks is Jesus Christ, ATMTP, like AMTP, fucking pay for writers rooms because this is what you get. Not that you get speeches, because I think that's pure Jesse. What you get is the structure of last week, and you get the structure of this week.

And just the Lego block building here of Ewan's coming back. And now also all thanks to HBO's budget, which is like, yeah, we got Cromwell on Speed Dial. He's ready. He's ready to come in and just burn the house down with one speech. It's like you can have Cromwell or you can have Brody. But you can't have them both. You can't have them both.

And often they compete for roles, you know, in most things. So Cromwell was the backup choice for Pat Riley in Winning Time. People don't really know that. Obviously, the reaction to you in speech is pretty much, you know, we get Greg being like that. That was a good heart take. But also they try to take him out Before he gets up to the lectern

No, but like So you have an opportunity To do something that I think lesser shows Would have devoted episodes to or flashbacks to Which is what's Logan's trauma And this show isn't about that Or you get Logan Logan would have the moment

To tell that story himself To be like And that's why you should feel sympathy for me And I think is That story becoming a posthumous anecdote Is like Maybe it's a reason for why he was the way he was, but it's not the only reason. And it doesn't really matter,

frankly, in the grand scheme of things, if one guy's sister dies of polio, if he's like, well, I'll just crash democracy then. Also, he didn't investigate it. He took whatever was what that created in him, and he used it to flatten the earth like a pancake. You know, that's, it's fuel. It's not necessarily an empathy play. And, but I thought it was noteworthy that it suggests that he was a human being underneath it all. And the reason I'm talking about the structure is not just because we get that at all, because it was really incredibly done. It's that that, I think, is what breaks Roman more than almost anything else,

that Roman has to follow that, right? And so once, when you see him practicing at the beginning in the mirror, and he's just like, great man, blah, blah, blah, and he's just doing his usual, you know, I mean, he used to jerk off onto windows, and now he's essentially doing the same thing, even though his pants are on. And he, but once the idea is on the table that his father was once a scared boy, like he was a scared boy, you know, something snaps and something, some damn breaks, you know. And man, I mean, it was, it is a testament to this show that we can see what he did last week and then feel, I imagine I'm not the only one saying this, like deep anguish when he says, is my dad in there? Can we get him out, please?

Yeah. The awesome thing, though, is that people laugh at him, because that's what Roman would do to anyone else. Yeah, and he went viral. Yeah. That, to me, was like, the show is the fucking goat. Because it was like, Roman would be the first person, just like Mankin goes up to him and he's like crying little tears, you know? Like, Roman would be the first person to start sending around anyone else muleing at their dead dad. Just like he says to his sister, like, you know, he immediately starts making sex jokes to his sister. when she says I'm pregnant. You know, like, he's not, he's the least appropriate person in the whole world.

So, like, it was such a perfect succession moment to have Jerry and Carl looking at that video of him crying on a loop. As far as Kendall's speech goes, like I mentioned, like, that had some echoes of Shakespeare, which I think this character has very many echoes of Shakespeare, and that can be very indicative of where the character is going. I certainly think that Kendall is assuming his final. form in a lot of ways. And the abandonment that he experiences over the first half of the episode, especially from women close to him, first from Shiv, obviously in the previous evening,

and then fully from Rava, fully from Jess. And, you know, he's starting to move into a colder and colder and darker world. But it still looks like there's one head and one crown in that world to me. It's not predictive. It's just like that's where this feels like it's going. Like even hiring Colin is indemnifying him against people being like, but he killed a kid. Everything is Machiavelli and everything is plotting. I also think his arc, even within this episode, let alone in the whole series, and this ties into what we were just saying about Logan, too, really highlights the level of thought that the show operates on. It's doing two things that I think often TV shows struggle to square, which is having a very clear. Having a very clear,

clear-eyed look at internal emotional anguish and trauma and people's, you know, justified reasons for feeling things and behavior. You know, you, you are not responsible for your thoughts and feelings and things that were done to you, but you are responsible for your behavior in the world, you know? And so we keep the camera tight on Kendall and we see what Rava, what Rava's choice in this episode does to him. We understand it. We have empathy for him.

but he acts like a fucking abusive monster on the streets of Manhattan. He's terrifying his children. He's not listening to a word she's saying, continuing to not listen to a word she's saying. She has come back on the show to be like, hey, you've broken the world that your children have to live in. And he can't hear that. Speaking of the children, why is Iverson the snuffel effigus of this show? Well, I think there are a number of reasons. I did appreciate the fact that, look, they're not even pretending that they're kids in that car, you know, which I think is good.

It doesn't help anyone, but it also really would do these things that you don't. Look, I've long been of the opinion that if you don't have to have children on a TV show, don't. Do you think Jeremy Strong was like, it's okay, we don't have to have kids in that car? I think he'd be like, find me two children. I need to see the whites of their eyes. I think that's a great point. I wouldn't be surprised if, like, some crew member had to, like, take their kids out of school for a day, just so Jeremy Strong could be. I could see as crew member having to wear a Sophie and Iverson mask sitting in the back.

Also true. Also true. Yeah. But the timeline of this episode being, of the season being so crazy. Like, and then those kids show up two years after we less saw them, you know, I think that wouldn't really, that we might bump on that a little bit. By the way, speaking of things we might bump on, I, you know, I'm, I don't know if I've mentioned this in the podcast, Chris, but I don't.

I don't go to Twitter anymore. That's not something I want attention for or applause. It's just something I just say casually as a point of fact. But the only kind of quasi-spoiler that I remember emerging from the filming of season four was that Connor and Willa were getting married. And maybe that's just because our buddy Dave Jacoby saw the sign and took a picture of it, put it on Instagram. But the fact that they were filming political and civil unrest on the streets of Manhattan,

I'm surprised that that didn't get picked up. I wonder if they did that under, you know, under fake names or something. Just during any other moment of political and civil unrest. And they just had Kieran Kolkin and going to running around being like, fuck you asshole. It's a great point. It's a great and humbling, frankly, and humbling point. I have to say in retrospect now looking back on the scenes from the season in succession that aired, you know, after the first episode or, you know, coming this season on succession. Just Mankin showing up a bunch was just probably like, oh, yeah, this guy's going to probably be president.

I mean, the biggest one was, who's Mankan running against? And why are we only going to see him for five minutes in one episode? Yeah. So the other point, I mean, you mentioned it that I think we should, the other scene with Kendall was the Jess scene, which I just thought was phenomenal. I think Julianne Canfield is great. And I love that the show knows that she's great and gave her something to do here. But, you know, it's, this was more than a, it's lonely at the top scene.

right? Like it's just a continuing sign that this is, he's not listening. It's, he's gone too far. You know, he has gone too far. And the way that she played that scene was a carryover from the way that she played that very brief scene with Greg in the previous week, you know? Yeah. It's one thing for Shiv to say, things matter. And it's another thing to know on this show that regardless of who is president, no one in the main cast and no one in that cathedral in their fictional universe will have any aspect of their lives changed whatsoever. I also thought it was notable. There's some people who might.

And totally, like, logical on the character of Jess's part, that it was transactional. She wasn't quitting. She wasn't resigning in protest. Yes, she kept it 100. But then, you know, she was like, can we talk about it next week? Can we talk about it next week? And then he walks away being, like, real nice to do this to me today. Yeah.

He's not good at boundaries, I would say. Is that fair? Yes. But I thought when he goes up to Hugo, big age. and he says, life isn't nice, it's contingent. People who say they love you also fuck you.

Yes. It's pretty much an explanation for the dramatic logic of this show, which sometimes I bump my head up against, which is essentially like Kendall, Roman, and Shiv can literally decide the fate of the nation and cut each other's throats in front of one another and then be like,

fuck you, no fuck you, no fuck you. and then the next day I get no car together and be like, by the way, I'm pregnant and by the way my wife left me again. And I thought that just that note to Hugo is this is Kendall's reality, is that he and everybody else is living in a viper den where people are like,

you know, I love you, but now I have to take you out in some capacity. Well, it's also that, you know, and this is kind of therapy 101 stuff, but like the familiar, we gravitate towards the familiar. We don't necessarily as human beings gravitate towards what's quote unquote good for us or might advance us or allow us to evolve or change. We gravitate towards the familiar.

Sometimes that's good. Sometimes that could be comforting, you know, like a nice pasta meal or something. Like that's okay. But gravitating towards like really dysregulated or dysfunctional abusive family patterns that make us feel bad, that might be worth investigating, right? And so these characters are bound together. I mean, that is the thing that I've always thought,

it's one of the many clearly things that I've always thought was so brilliant about the show is its understanding of that and its framing of it in a business and personal context, right? That, like, you could watch a few seasons of the show casually and be like, why are these people always in rooms together? Why is week after week a different party or gathering?

It's like, because that's the only way they feel alive. they are unsafe. It's not just what I was saying about how they can't function in a fucking karaoke bar on the lower east side. It's they can't function otherwise. They are not Logan, as told by Kendall, who can walk into any room and be comfortable. They are only comfortable in these rooms. And what I thought was so like powerfully illustrated in this episode is that these bonds that feel so essential to them, whether they're bonds of hatred or love, which are kind of just pull back 10,000 feet, it's still just bonds. the bonds break when someone dies. Yeah. The old ways go. The connections start to fray. They're not forever. And you could look at that in a positive way for a moment.

Like Marcia embracing Carrie and then having that interest. I thought that was a bizarrely lovely shared moment that they were like, yeah, that guy really ground his teeth. Yeah. Everyone in that aisle is. And she was like Logan would have hated this. Yeah. It's chuckling, right? Like that is an example of what can happen and what life can feel.

feel or look like when you just drop it. You just drop it. Because everything that, the hierarchy of those women and what they meant to each other and what they meant to him, the sun was snuffed out. It doesn't matter what the orbit is anymore. That can be a good thing. But I think we're seeing how absolutely catastrophic it can be for people who are just not prepared for it to change like that.

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Save. at Whole Foods Market. What did you think of, I want to move a little bit to the post-funeral moment because for as, you know, enormous as that scene seems, dramatically,

I think most of the important stuff happens in the drinks and convoy after, in the party afterwards. What do they call that? Reception? Sorry? You call it a post game. Uh-huh.

Do you think that the president of elect would just be chilling solo at like a high table with an amstel? Like is he that accessible? Like where like Greg and everybody is just like sidling up to him? That did seem like a bit of a stretch. I do think that the impression was given that to be in that room you can be free. That there is enough security and everything around. I glad you pointed that out though. I do think that the scrum was a, you know, dramatically heightened, let's say, because it did look like a high school cafeteria, you know, and I think it was meant to. And then what did you make of, or how did you feel about the kind of open warfare going on

between Shiv and I guess Kendall in so much as Jared is being traded back and forth or Jared is running these two teams back and forth against one another? Well, I mean, one thing that's, I mean, you start with the Jared. Chris, let's start with the Jared piece. The Mencken piece? The Mencken piece, a two-way player, you know. Minkin never goes into the end of a game with a... He always takes his timeouts with him, you know?

He sure does. He's just available. He just bounces from offensive defense. One of the things I really like about Justin Kirk's performance is that he looks like the cat that just ate the mouse. You could look at it in this, even just in the vacuum of this episode, it'd be like, well, who is this guy? What does he actually want, care for, or believe?

And what the show is reminding us is, it doesn't matter. He wanted power and he has it now, and he's beginning to like... he's beginning to savor the taste. And he's realizing what his just being in front of people means. And what is scariest about him, if you are a citizen who voted two or three times thanks to the Democratic machine in Chicago against him, is that he's not saying a word. No. He doesn't need to.

And so it's crucial to go back to what it takes that, I mean, which now seems like one of the central episodes of the show. with Mankin saying that like, you know, when he's listing off like Franco, Travis Bickle, H. And he's like, I borrow from everybody. I'll steal from anybody, you know? And it's like actually what you're saying is Roman, Shiv, Mattson, Kendall, Logan. Like, I'll take, I'll tell people

what they need to hear to get through a certain moment, you know? Yeah, it's not, it's interesting seeing him and Madsen share a scene, not only because they were loving it. Like, Scars Guard is just great in that scene. What's his, what's his, What's his big three? It's a pussy pasta and what?

I missed that last one. I'm sure it was privacy. I think that's probably what he cares about in media. That they're both, what was interesting is that they both did seem to speak the same language, which is this, if you get the right vantage point, is just kind of a laissez-faire libertarianism, right? Like, we're just going to let this machine go.

We're going to let it run and see what happens. I found that all very interesting. And I thought it was interesting, too, that Kendall is just like, I had a successful interaction with Mencken and I can work with him, you know, whereas Roman, you just got steamrolled by him. Like, I don't think, I'm pretty confident considering how much they got rolled by the Pierce family that they cannot handle going up against the White House, you know, if that's really where we're headed. But it was interesting to see everyone think that they had a leg up or had something to do with this or that you can stop a snowball once it's going down one of the fucking mountains near the Norway retreat where those guys were just a few episodes ago. Does Shiv's adaptability or leopard changing her spots kind of behavior towards the end of the episode when she gets her eyes on the CEO prize and her, you know, basically being like, those are just feelings, you know, like about her political beliefs? Does that change how you view her from the previous episode where she's the last, the last person standing on the battlements for pluralism? No, I mean, it's consistent. Chris, the Shiv piece. Let's come back to it.

Sorry, I'll stop. You don't have to. We're only four days on from Game 7 in our world. You guys, you're a week on by the time you're listening to this. I really, I'm not really a big like can't wait for the think pieces guy, but I really would like some, I would like a variety of think pieces about Shivroy at the end of this season. I keep Mitt bringing this up week to week.

and I still feel like an imperfect vessel for mentioning it, but I am curious about her role on the show as someone who is playing the power games and is in over her head and is transactional and has fungible morals, but does still seem to have at least one appendage. Maybe it's just a little toe at this point on the third rail of humanity or decency and what that has to do with her pregnancy. You know, I'm curious about that and I'm very curious about how it's going to play out because in the same episode where she goes super macro and is just like, look, you know, everyone has feelings, but we have business to do, we have work to do. She does that on a macro level, but on a micro level, she shows Tom like the single purest gesture of kindness that maybe Succession has ever given us where she's just like, you are tired, be on tired.

please come home and sleep. That feels, not Shakespearean, that feels biblical. You know what I mean? Like I just come back to the manger. Yeah. And it's so kind, he doesn't have anything to say, you know? He doesn't even pretend to hug her like they're better. He just stumbles off and stupefaction.

Yeah, but dude, like what happens 1.6 seconds after she, like, welcomes Tom back into the manger. She gets a phone call from Matzid and, you know, her eyes pop out of her head like a cartoon cat. I know. Well, so I think that like... The juxtapism, the compression of those kinds of moments of incredible tenderness with these moments of such like naked self-interest or betrayal or, you know, abandonment of quote-unquote principles, which I don't necessarily think any of these people have anyway. But it's very striking in this episode, right? Like, it's very like you are confronted with somebody at their lowest and their highest in like a minute or two of screen time. And I think for as much as I'm pointing out the significance of Shiv being the only sister, I do think her place as the middle child is significant going into the finale too, because you alluded to kind of having a sense of where Kendall is going, and we should probably talk about that. We are shown where Roman is going, whether he comes back from it or not.

I don't mean like he's dead, but like just as an unbroken shelf of whatever he is, I don't know. I don't think he comes back because I don't think he has Mankin or Matson's respect anymore. I think both of those guys watched him cry at his dad's funeral and we're like, eh. Not someone we can work with. But Shiv's future feels the most uncertain and the most wildcardi in terms of just how things will work out, you know, both as a person and as an expected mother and also as a potential CEO. That, for me, is the biggest question going to the finale. And I feel like whichever way that tips is where the whole series goes. It's so fucking sad, though, too, because she's just, like, openly saying, I will do to my child what my mother did to me, which is essentially hand them off to a nanny for their childhood for my own self-interest.

And she's just going around telling, like, random executives that, you know, not randomly. Again, in the spirit of, like, what I was saying before about, like, feelings and behavior, like, she hasn't done it. She hasn't done any of that. I'm not saying that she's going to have a change of her. But what's the say is it like broken people, break people? Like this was very much an episode about the generational transference of trauma and how to create dysfunction and create, you know, like, dysfunctional people. Like, you know, just the fact that you've got this old man talking about his young brother believing that he's responsible for essentially the murder of his sister. And then decades later, like he lords that same sort of power over.

his son, you know, being like, oh, you killed a kid and you let him drown, and now you're my blood bag boy, basically. And, like, these people who just, like, repeat the same mistakes of generations past. And the other half of it being, I think, that it's not just that Logan brought the polio, felt he brought the polio back, it's that he was weak, right? Like, he hated being away at school and wanted to come home. Yeah, and, yeah, exactly. And so he, he, that's connected to it, too. Thus, there was never another ounce of softness in him again. Look, to your other point, you don't think it might have been the

coming over on a ship across the Atlantic during World War II. You don't feel like they were following like COVID protocols back then? No, but I just mean like, you and then that's the day that Logan got hard. I'm like, he got hard when he was like four years old and they were like, don't make a peeper a U-boat will sink you. We'll end

you. I'm sure that was fine. To your other point, look, the alt title for the show has always been inheritance, right? Like, that's what it's really about. It's about the sort of like bullshit business framing is like, no, it's what we're going to, first, it has the word success in it. But second, it's like, we're going to take over and we're going to continue to push forward.

You know, we're going to take the reins and the horse is never going to stop galloping. But it's actually what is being handed to you? What has already been handed to you? What have you not dealt with? What are you, what is your entire life built on top of? And that piece of it is devastating and I don't expect the finality to let up on it. I'm really curious if, and I don't mean to create like a straw critic argument, but I do wonder if there will be anyone who came away from these two weeks of succession being like, this was interesting, but it didn't match the intensity or the highs of the previous week of America decides. You know, there were people out there being like, or at least I saw one mention comparing America decides to Osamandias, which was also the third to last episode of Breaking Bad.

and it's considered to be one of the, not going to say, it is. I'll just objectively say it, one of the best episodes of dramatic television ever made. My take? You guys listening for my take? I know I've been shy about it up to this point in minute 45 or whatever we're at. This was Osamandias. This was look upon my works in despair, except it's not from the perspective of the king. Yeah, the king's dead.

Like Walter White, it's everyone fucking stumbling around in the dust with sand, their eyes. I think that the reason why, if I sound slightly more reserved on this pod that I did last week, partially it's because I'm jet-like, but partially it's because there wasn't a very funny episode. You know, I didn't think there were some good, cool lines and the mausoleum was funny, and, you know, it's always fun to see Harriet Walter kind of in her husband in a pile of senators, like a Labrador or whatever. Like, you know, there were lots of amusing moments. But there was nothing like, you know, wasabi in the eye with LaCroix-as as a chaser.

There was nothing like as sort of like comedically, architecturally, beautifully constructed as Tom running around these offices. It was a very, it was a funeral procession of an episode. But it's a funeral procession that's being interrupted by the occasional Molotov cocktail. I mean, it's such an interesting perspective that what they have wrought is now banging

at the bulletproof windows of their SUVs. Like, they're still, until the very last moment, they are still inoculated from it. Yeah. But it's beginning to chip away. And the vibes, the vibes are different. The vibes are very queasy Gonzalez. Did you enjoy the,

I thought this was a nice little thing that they haven't done too much of in the past, which is there was the shot, the insert shot of Tom looking at the New York Times, which had done a deeply reported TikTok of what it happened. You know, this is, by the way, 12 hours after it happened. So, kudos to the-

Maggie Haberman. Seriously, kudos to the National Desk, but also the design department who really pulled an all-nighter. It's so funny when Tom is like, there's fires in Baltimore, and, you know, it's just like, make sure they know it's me, though.

Make sure I did it. That, like, you know, what was Diana Riggs character? Like, let her know. Let's make sure Sersie knows me. Anything else you wanted to bring up before we go? Any feeling about where we're going for the finale? It's interesting.

Again, I imagine it was an austere next week on succession. We don't have access to that. We haven't seen it. I guess I'm curious about a couple things. I am curious if they are going to stick with the season-long commitment to every episode being a day or a subsequent day. not saying I would expect like a 30-year time jump, like the end of Parks and Rec, but like... That would be sick.

I do wonder, it's possible, you know, or... But I also think it would be pretty interesting to push us right up to the brink of the world that these kids... They had a world that they inherited and then the world that they've just very, very quickly broken. I mean, they've made their own pile. It's a pile of shit. And they did it in five episodes. So interesting because, you know, it's getting pretty hairy out there. Maybe we're about to find out who really built the silo, you know?

Maybe we're about to get into a dystopian sci-fi, you know. Do you know the other thing I thought about, like the politics are clearly pushing their way into the show. They've always been there, but they're much more front-centered last week this week, both literally in the text and then what's going on around it. And even the way we're talking about it and the way the last week was received. one thing that I feel like is kind of under-mentioned that I'm really appreciating is that, and again, we haven't spoken to him about this. I hope we'll get the chance sometime to talk to him about this. But Jesse, like, there's been an understanding from the beginning of the series that it was being written from a perspective of not the super rich, right? Like they are not in these boardrooms and they are dragging them and roasting them and satirizing them and psychologically picking them apart.

but it is also not written from the perspective of the Antifa guys in the street. Which isn't to say they aren't closer to the writer's political leanings. But it is probably, right? I mean, like, there was a pretty broad spectrum. Sure. The NY Times needle is a little bit more Antifa than it is. That it is Jared Minkin. Nazi, right?

So I think that's a safe, I think that actually is a relatively safe thing to say. But kind of written from this middle place remove of, you know, chin scratching and being like, this is all unsettling. You know what I mean? And I think that that is actually helping the show tightrope walk what it's trying to do at this moment. It is not a polemical show. It is a deeply, deeply observed and disappointed show. And I think that's the place that we're pulling up to in the finale.

where are you with it? Like you, what do you think? Because I'm curious what you think about Kendall. I think that Kendall is going to destroy everyone. I think that Kendall is very much lining up. And maybe that's not consistent with his character or maybe no one ever really changes. And Kendall will also, like, Matson or Minkin

will just cut this guy's throat or, you know, shove him off a balcony. And that'll be that. But I just feel like he is now insulating himself in a way that he never did before. and he completely big brothers Roman. He now has his father's bodyguard and secret keeper. He has essentially a guy who's willing to do all of his dirty work

and start leaking things about people on the board not liking Mattson. He's even using Carl's language now where he's like, he has our dick in his hand and we should have his dick in our hand. I think he's just like actually like starting to believe, you know, And maybe this whole note about it being this Richard the third character who gets where he wants to go, but at the expense of everything that made him human is really where this show is going. I don't know. It's a Godfather 2 ending.

He's going to close the door. Yeah, that's right. It is all set up for that. There are a lot of other things in play, but maybe that is where the show always was going, which is that everybody up to this point failed because they wanted their father's approval, which would require their father to change. maybe the only path is to just become, become him. You know, he has, you're right, he has systematically alienated siblings, which is what

Logan did. He has broken almost entirely from any meaningful relationship with his children, which is what Logan did. He has cast off exes, which is what Logan did, and he will choose the deal and the chasing of the deal and the manipulative. He's very little left to choose from. It's not like he has a family left, you know? It's not like he has a father left.

He's not like he really has a solid relationship, but the siblings left. He doesn't have Rava. He doesn't have a girlfriend. He doesn't have Jess. He doesn't have... He's now getting into a very samurai, like, relationship with his life.

I am excited and will celebrate any choice that comes next week because it will be an aesthetic choice made by the creator of the show. Unless it all winds up being taking place in a snow globe being shaken up? Yeah, at this point, I would make the argument,

for it probably. That's how in the tank I am. But I think I think there is something very appropriate about the show just look we have said from the beginning that like I've always felt that the narratives of like who's going to win is kind of not reading the show that's being put in front of us. If it's the person who is always supposed to but what did it cost and what does it mean for all the other people we've come to be invested in? Like that's that's a good landing place I think.

Yeah. All right. We were produced by Kaia McMullen today. Thank you to everybody listening. We will be back on Thursday with another episode of The Watch podcast. Andy, great to see you, man. You enjoy your travels, Chris. Are you going to go out and hit the town? I think so, yeah.

Maybe stay behind the police barricades.