The Watch - Breaking Down the ‘Top Chef: Portland’ Season Finale. Plus, ‘Loki’ Episode 4.

Episode Date: July 2, 2021

Chris and Andy break down the season finale of ‘Top Chef’ (1:41) and reflect on how COVID impacted this season as a whole (27:25). Then they talk about this week’s episode of ‘Loki,’ which might be their favorite so far (34:07). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he is top chef. It's Andy Greenwald. If only, if only. Wouldn't you love it if Padma said that to you just once in your life, even if it wasn't really for the show, if she was just like, Andy, you're a top chef, dog.

Chris, Padma, talk to me. And you last year, and I've been flying ever since. I don't care what she says. That's incredible. Great Walt, here we are today. You're going to be hearing this late Thursday night, early Friday morning, whatever your pleasure. It's a podcast, so it's on demand. You can just listen to it whenever you want.

But what we're going to be talking about today, right for the spoilers, because Andy and I are going right after the Top Chef finale. So obviously, if you are following along with Top Chef, haven't had a chance to watch it, we're about to spoil the ending of that. Sorry, Akaya, our producer, who is a victim of our. of our professionalism, candidly. It's just like, we like to get after it and it's just sometimes

Kai doesn't get to enjoy TV shows because of it. So first we do Top Chef finale, break, Loki, episode four, Nexus event. I recommend people also check out

some of the other great podcasts, The Ringer podcast Network is doing about Loki right now, Midnight Boys, House of Mal, check those out, Greenwald. So this is your 3-2-1.

We're going to start talking about Top Chef now. Andy, we have a new Top Chef. We do. congratulations to Austin, Texas as Gabe O'Rales, who won Top Chef 18. Moments ago, I guess, if you're the kind of person who fires up the podcast right afterwards. Depending on what timeline you're on, what branch. Exactly, the sacred timeline.

This was a interesting and compelling finale. It wasn't an outstanding finale. I guess I have some general thoughts about how it played out as well as how this finale fit into the context of the season of season 18, which I think overall has been a triumph. I think it's worth noting. Sometimes people like it when we give them a peek behind the curtain a little bit, that you and I had a kind of an interesting experience. Has anyone ever said I really love it

when we get to peek behind the curtain with you guys? One person in the tweet once. Ergo, it is now canon. So I can refer to that. I still have my sources. I mean, I came with the receipts, the one receipt that I can't specifically cite. So I fit right in on the internet.

Anyway, we got screeners for this finale. yesterday. But the screener we got did not include the last act of the show. So we watched up until the judge's table said, we have a lot to talk about. We have a big decision to make. Sure. And then the episode ended. And then we had 24 hours before they gifted us with the last six, seven minutes. And this was very interesting to go through it for a day. And not to say this as a humble brag, to say it as a complete and total brag. I'm going to stop you right there. Because instead of you humble bragging, I want to compliment you. I want to compliment you. I want to compliment you. I want to Oh, this is healthier. I appreciate this.

I'll tell you something. You guys, Andy's my best friend. I've known Andy for 25 years. Like, I give him shit on this pod and off the pod. But I got to tell you something. It's a pretty sharp guy. Pretty smart guy. So two times for this podcast, both about Loki and Top Chef, I mean, going back and forth. I'm a little scatterbrained right now. The playoffs take a long time. You're busy. A couple years off my life. I heard you on the Bill Simmons show saying that, you know, talking about soft tissue injuries. I feel like you've, you've suffered. for a couple recently. Nobody's load managing me. I'm just going for it, man. So, Andy, in two different conversations on text, I just got to say, and you guys are about to be the beneficiaries of this wisdom, but just a wise guy, man. And I don't mean that in the many sense of New York way.

I mean, really sharp. I don't want you to say, like, this is a humble brag, because, like, you, we were, we were like, he was like, who do you think one? And I was like, it's obviously showed her. Because I was kind of, I was watching and I'm invested and I'm thinking about it. But to me, I was just doing recency bias. I was just like, the momentum just seems to be going and showed his direction. And to me, Ed and, and, you know, a couple of the chefs being like, this, this is a side dish. This isn't a second course. Didn't, I didn't jump out at me. Like, oh, man, showed a fucked up. I guess the rice thing I should have thought about more. And you, to your credit, were just like, gave one. This is before we saw the last seven minutes, you were like, Gabe won. And it was

before we saw the judges starting to say, Shoda took the first one. And you, and you were just, you Gabe took the second one, Dawn took the third one, whatever. No, it was... So kudos to you. Thank you. You're a smart guy. It was clear, and again, the edit obviously helped me along. I wasn't present for any of this.

I refused to quarantine. I was invited, you know, but I was just like, I just can't. Portland Nightlife is calling to me. It was clear he won. And it was clear not just from the reactions of the chefs at the table, but looking at the meals that they planned, Gables was the only one that transcended. that seemed to both understand fundamentally what the assignment is, which is deceptively hard.

It's the same every year, but it is incredibly hard. And I think it was harder than ever this year. This ties into a larger comment I wanted to make about the season, which is, it was incredible that time and time again during this COVID-affected season, the producers, magical elves, Tom Padman Gale, all the brain trust behind the show, continued to turn lemons into lemonade, or even Limoncello, if you will. I think Tom would appreciate that. making choices that they could have felt forced,

like they were backed into a corner and turned them into something that was quite moving or surprising or outstanding, like the judging panel, for example, of All-Stars. The season suffered the most here in the finale for a number of reasons.

One of the biggest reasons, I think, that it suffered was that the chefs were burnt out. Traditionally on a top chef season... It actually reminded me of the NBA playoffs. Yes, it's true. As we've been saying these last few weeks, the challenges were outrageously.

hard these last few, you know, over the last few elimination challenges. The cheese one outrageously hard. Just the sheer prep work of the dungeness crab challenge. The amount of physical labor that went into clam digging and fishing for your own crabs and then cook, like that's nuts. Like doing three, four,

five, six jobs just to get something on a plate. And traditionally on Top Chef seasons, they finish filming the regular season and then they shut down production and then one to three months later, they ramp up production again at the finale site. Which is sometimes not the same as the host city. Generally, it's in a different country or somewhere exciting.

And then, you know, the final challenges usually take advantage of the new locale, the marketplaces, what have you. Obviously, they couldn't do any of that this year. So it ran right up to the end. So, yeah, I think fundamentally they were burned. They were also robbed of the chance to get any perspective on what they've learned, what they've accomplished where they are as chefs. It was really just like, okay, it's Thursday.

Okay, here's my dream meal. And you could see that very, very clearly in Shoda and Dawn's struggles. We can speak more specifically about her in a minute, but Dawn was played by the same problems that she's had throughout. She did not have a moment to pause, collect herself, and sort of not pre-plan, which she didn't do a ton of, but re-plan and be like, I'm taking this advice in. I'm not just nodding. Shoda absolutely peaked in the last three weeks

where suddenly he realized that these chefs were open to extremely complex yet subtle Japanese techniques. And Gail was like, please keep giving us this. And I think that he had not cooked that way. I don't even think he cooked that way in his restaurants, the one he keeps talking about closing, which I think were much more casual. He got to this finale, having shown us incredible things,

and was like, now I'm going to do something completely different and just be a sort of soulful Izakaya chef and do a tribute to my mom. Oh, and P.S. I boofed the rice. But it started off, I think the larger issue, though, and this was when I started getting nervous during the judging, was that they were starting to give one dish to this person

and one, like, Shoda gets one, and Don gets one. And I was like, what do you guys, but you guys are talking about progression? Does this is supposed, these are all supposed to interlock? So the majesty of Shoda's sashimi course that he served first, that was great, but then as everybody pointed out, the second course felt more of a side dish,

and then the third course felt like it was part of a different menu. It's so weird, and I should clarify by saying this. One of the things that I love about Japanese cuisine, about many people love about Japanese cuisine, is it is so, so, so specialized and diverse. You can't just say Japanese cuisine. There's sushi chef, there's Kaisaki chef, you know, there's many, many styles, and traditions. And that said,

Shota, up to this point, has proven himself to be wildly adept and not just the classics, but pretty intricate levels of seasonal Japanese cooking. I thought that he would, at least, even if he wasn't trained in Kaisiki,

which is the traditional, seasonal Kyoto-based, like all of these courses speak to each other in a rhythm and they begin with, there's an order to it. I mean, there's a fried course. There's a stewed course.

I thought that he would pull from that. But weirdly, it felt as if he had had the sense about him like, well, I've achieved this level of like transcendent dicon radishry and now it's time to just be more myself. There are times, it just was not coherent. Perhaps he was a victim of watching Top Chef. There have been times on Top Chef where I can sense the judges getting a little bit bored

with someone's execution or someone's thing, the thing that they do. I remember, you know, like multiple times it's been like, oh, another pasta, of course. You know, like with you, it's always pasta or whatever. And I felt like he spooked himself, even though I don't feel like I got that at all from any of the judges. I didn't get the sense at all that they were like, we're really tired of Shoda at a fucking elite level, you know, and making these sputes in a way that only he can make them.

Nobody ever was like resistant to that. And that was where I thought Shoda and Gabe got separated. It was like, Gabe achieved. self-actualization, chef actualization. He was like, this is what I do really well. And just to use an NBA comparison,

because I always say this, it's like, because I've been talking about this a lot throughout the course of the playoffs, there's this idea that coaches save certain plays for the playoffs, that they save certain lineups for the playoffs,

that they're going to, there's one thing in their back pocket that nobody is seen. And I feel like when the chips were down, Gabe had that. Gabe had that with the kombucha, you know, and the 20 ingredient mole that has feld, you know, sauces have felled other chefs in top chef

history where they're like, I really wanted to make this thing. It takes 12 hours to come to fruition. So I'm going to try and do it in an hour. And he just never seemed at all, he never sweat a single time during that, that competition. He honestly really has only fucked up once and it was when he burned linen into a tortilla. But for the rest of the time, he's been pretty flawless. I totally agree with you. I got a little trip to. up in my response because I was trying to imagine what Doc Rivers had in his back pocket other than lint and maybe like a spare buffalo nickel. Doc has his scorecard for a lovely golf course somewhere. That's right. He's doing fine. Gabe peaked at the right time. That happens. People catch

fire. But what you're speaking to is exactly right. What became clear as the season went on was that Gabe had either had or developed over the course of a season a complete synthesis of a of technical ability and personal story, which is what is required to win Top Chef these days, and executed it fairly flawlessly the last few weeks. You know, I mean, yes, they talked about his saucework, which is just incredible, but there was no competition truthfully.

I don't want to say that. I wish there had been. But looking at this meal, it really wasn't close, I don't think, at all. When they asked him how many ingredients were in that sauce, were in the mollay. And he was like, for this one, 20, the blaze in calico's faces were like in awe. And this is one of those moleys where,

I mean, we got to see it, but like you burn tortillas and use the ash as a flavor component in it. I mean, this is, it's awesome. Let me just say that the complexity and beauty of Mexican cooking, you know,

and certainly regional Mexican cooking, because Gabe's family and a lot of his recipes come from the Yucatan, which is, you know, completely distinct from Sonora or, you know, Sinolo or any other Mexican state, even ones that don't begin with S. It was really beautiful to see. And going back to your point, which I really appreciated, the assignment is a progressive meal as if the chef is showing you something and having a

conversation with you. And that gets a little muddled when there are three plates in front of every judge, which does make me think that you were probably right, especially after what happened in this episode that maybe we should have done the mercy kill last week and had two chefs in the finale. But he's the only one that served a progressive meal that told a coherent story and gained momentum and elevated. You know, what was his weakest course, the first one? And what was weak about it?

His breading choice and the fry on his Cochinita Pibille inspired head cheese. I mean, okay, that's a, that's, you know, as you said to me when we text about it, that happens whenever you make head cheese. Sure. It can happen. But that was remarkable. And I also think it's worth note. I can't tell you how many pig's heads I have in my trash can right now just from failed experiments that I've been doing today on a Thursday.

You got to. I mean, the temperature is 99 here in L.A. That's right. It's pig head season, baby. It was kind of lovely that Maria was his sous chef. You know, it wasn't set up that way necessarily, but, you know, the fact that two Mexican-American chefs were in such beautiful harmony. working on this meal was really wonderful to see. And I also do want to give Gabe a lot of credit for at the end, the very end, saying not only what it meant to be the first Mexican-American

top chef, but that, you know, the still often unsaid reality that most food cooked in restaurants from professional settings in America, I think, is cooked by people of Mexican or Latin American heritage. And so, you know, that's, it's incredibly important for this moment to have happened. So, so anyway, all of this, though, is kind of saying the, the, the, is covering over the fact that I think that it was not a particularly dramatic or exciting finale. Part of it is because honestly in Top Chef Finaleys never are because there aren't challenges other than yourself. Right.

And I think that I think there have been Top Chef Finallies that have been longer. Like they've sometimes done two-parters where, you know, somebody goes home and then there's the final cook or there's some added element. Obviously, you've referenced previously the- The Iron Chefy one. Brooke debacle and Seattle, or not even a debacle, but just like that twist.

You know, I think that there was like a faint towards that, although obviously they weren't going to have to cook against any of those people. Wait, can we just mention that?

Yeah, so this is like awesome. They come home from their day of shopping. They're all shook, completely shook. Like they obviously all are like, all nerves.

Not just shopping. They're six hour day of prepping. And prepping. And they walk in the door, the three chefs and a dozen of the greatest chefs to ever be. be on top chef and some of the greatest chefs in the country are standing in their kitchen.

And Dale makes a joke about how like there's another challenge. You guys have to pick one of us to cook against and the loser goes home or something. And then obviously they make a family style meal for them. But wait. So Dale has now officially revealed himself as that guy. Because that wasn't funny. You know what I mean? Like did you see Dawn's face?

No, she was fucking petrified. Yeah. Horrified. Yeah. I kind of feel like I would love to just have all of those judges in a confessional and just go one by one and be like, you said it was a bad idea, didn't you? Like, and he did it anyway. Like, which of you actually thought that was cool? I did think that.

My guess is the number is low. That meal was very, it was lovely. I want to talk to you about the components of that meal, which like just honestly, if I had eaten even like a rational amount of that food the night before, which I would not have been able to keep it rational, I would have just been like, we're going to just cram as much of this into me as we can and see what happens. I would not be able to cook my top chef finale the next day. So, like, I would just be, like, pure duck and bone marrow floating through the ether. Yeah. I'm right there with you.

There are many reasons why I could never successfully compete or appear. Didn't Richard make a pile of bones and bone marrow with, like, beef dressing? Medallions, yeah. It was pretty wild, and I can't, I do wonder how that takes. I go out now, I'm like, oh, that salmon was quite buttery. I might need a little nap. A million percent. Also, Chris, I don't know how you are, but like I, I love, I love food, like to go to restaurants, have a nice meal, et cetera, et cetera.

But if I have an event, like if it's a public event or if I have something the next day or if I have nerves or anxiety, your boys, tum-tum gets a little shy. You know what I mean? Like, I am very capable of barely grazing. even at a beautiful repast if it's a stressful situation. Can you imagine the vibes there, though, if you had been like, here's a pile of beef and bone marrow, dungeon is crab, Gregory's making food, Melissa's making food, Brooks making food, you're just like in the, you're really in the presence of greatness and you're just like,

I'm going to have a kind bar in a Topochiko. And then I got to go to bed because, by the way, I have to be at the breakfast table at 6 a.m. tomorrow for the biggest professional day of my life. I mean, just thinking about this scenario stresses me out, even though it was, jokes aside, I think that was the highlight of the episode because the community of these chefs. Yeah, and they were like, you're part of the family now. I do want to identify one moment from that meal, though, because I thought it was very, look, like, what they choose to show and what they choose not to show sometimes can be a function

of the footage that they have and sometimes can be a function of the story that they're trying to tell. And I think sometimes, you know, for instance, I wanted to mention to you like the quick succession of shots of Gabe Shoda and Dawn first sitting down with Byron, Jamie, and Maria at their little individual tables. And, you know, they've got their notebooks. And it seemed like, to me, at least, at some point, either before the competition or during the competition, based on what I saw in the frame, that Shoda and Gabe had already started conceptualizing what a final meal might look like. And I didn't know necessarily if had gotten to that point. Like Dawn had seemed like she was still sort of like, I kind of want to do this and I kind of want to do that, but I also want to see what we've got. And I also want to see what looks good. And I kind of want to let it come to me a little bit.

Whereas I felt like Shoda had drawings already as things that he wanted to cook. So that was one thing. We can get to that in a second. But there was a moment in this kind of ties together in that family meal that they have with the past competitors. Where Nina obviously like buttonholes dawn and is just like, you've got to simplify.

It's like the cover of a Robert Caro book, right? She's like, she like, she's just like, hey, Don, come here. And it's just like, you need to, like, whatever you got to do to make it so that it's like a, it's like the process is, the mechanism is clear. You've got to do it. She got to cocoa chenelle it. You got to remove something from every plate. And that you saw Nina's face when, when, when Don's first courseman came out. And I think that there were a few people at that table who were like, fuck.

Like, yeah, this was, this, I was, I was, I thought she. could do it. And even at the very end, I think Padma was still kind of like, I think she was like pushing the Dawn agenda. I think she was like, this could still like, I think that, I mean, first of all, you and I are both in the tank for Dawn. We love her just as a person that we've never met. Dawn game. I mean, like, it's not even, and I think that I would love to eat all of these chefs food and everything, but like, yeah. That said, I also think that Dawn is, and you could do a better sports metaphor than I could, so I won't try. But you dream on her and you fall in love with her based on the potential.

Now, that sounds belittling. I don't mean that because she can execute it at the same high level as anyone else on the show this season, you know, in other seasons included. But there, she was kind of feast or famine. She either transcended earth time space and taste buds and made an entire table of professional chefs and eaters false silence with, with ecstasy,

or drove them insane. with tiki-tack, like, what is this flower pedal doing here? Or why isn't this other element here? Why did you pickle five things or whatever? Yeah. And I think that that was deeply frustrating because you dream on her. If she had caught fire, she could have won. It seemed like she was, though.

It seemed like she was, I think she had the first initial miss, like early, early in the season where she didn't get all the first episode. And then I feel like she kind of put it all together for a while. And then there was the tofu. She cut her hand. the second of last episode or whatever the one where Maria went home, she misses a plate,

but it's still like, they're just like, she missed a plate, but it's still amazing. That was tofu. That was tofu. And then this finale, after coming out of that.

Oh, no, I'm sorry, Byron went home on tofu. I mixed them up, but yes, it was. Whenever, but whenever the one that Maria went home

and the subsequent week, yeah. Yeah, was like the one where Dawn made incredible food, but missed a plate. And then the next, you know,

obviously the finale, she misses a couple of components from her first dish. I'd love to, to get the chance to talk to her about this, but what I was, what interested me was what you pointed out, which is that she didn't seem particularly prepared, but she also commented that this is her process, you know, and she had said that before. I think it was in restaurant wars. Remember when she kind of fell silent and everyone was like, what are you even cooking?

How am I supposed to help in prep? And she's like, I'll find it. I'll get there. I wonder if it's a, I wonder if it's connected to her athletic career in the sense that I think that athletes and many people in many different fields, but you hear about a lot with athletes. become very superstitious about process and outcome. Sure. You know, I'm going to listen to this song before every game or I have to shoot these free throws in this way, you know, something I hope Ben Simmons takes to heart in the future. But, you know, there's a certain thing that they go through and then they don't want to go against it because they might jinx, you know, they might jinx themselves. And I think that

she may be too in love with the mystery. You know what I mean? Like I think that it has, you know, she feels some either, I got the sense that her relationship to her muse is not under her control always. Like she feels like, you know, sparks just fly, which is amazing. Look, and writers feel that way all the time. I was just going to say that. I just deeply identify with being either given 35 minutes to write something or a year to write something. It doesn't matter.

It's going to happen when it happens. And that's like I've learned in my life to be able to like bang it out if I need to. But if you're like, hey, man. so we're going to do this thing you pitched. Can you file it to me in two weeks? Can you file it to me in two days? Or can you file it to me in six months? It doesn't matter.

Like, I can't start to get ready to write it and then do the work. Like, it all happens when it happens. And that's why I honestly write relatively short pieces. Like, I don't know how to, I can't do it otherwise. Both of us have, you know, until recently, our careers were writing. I guess mine still is. But, you know what I mean? writing on deadlines and things.

Yeah. And I don't think either of us could compete on top blogger because there's a professionalization or a standardization that is part of it. And I think that's one of the reasons why Top Chef is so interesting because it does champion and celebrate that creative piece of it, the artistic piece of it. But it is also deeply connected to the very, you know, the argument that Tony Bourdain used to make too, which is that he's not a chef. he's a cook and there's a difference.

And being a cook means you just have to execute bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, the same way every time in a certain amount of time. And, you know, Don, obviously, is a successful restaurant cook. I don't mean to imply otherwise. Sure. But there was a time management thing and a strategic thing. And I think that, I mean, ultimately, I think Gabe won not just for his artistry, but because he was like, it's going to be a push to execute these crab fat tortillas.

But I'm going to do it and he did it, except for the linen burning incident, which wasn't a time thing. But I wonder whether or not he took what he learned from that crab fat tortilla incident and was like, here's how I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen next week. You know what I mean? Like, I wonder. And, you know, ultimately, if you watch the episode and then you go back to the beginning and watch through it again, the signs are there. Like even Maria is with Gabe and when Gabe is like, we're going to do delicata squash with Mexican cane sugar and a, and a, and a. that's basically a coffee ice cream that he made, right? Yeah, a cafe Mexicana, right?

Yeah. And I don't know if it was, like, there's Cafe de Oia, which is a Mexican preparation of coffee that has a little cinnamon in it. I don't know if that's what he was going for, but either way, it was essentially a coffee ice cream. You can just hook me up to an IV of whatever it was that he made there because it looked amazing. And also you could, I almost feel like if you go back,

you can kind of see Maria be like, wow, this dude's on another level right now. Yeah. A million percent. A million percent. And I think that it's also worth saying, again that just in terms of what they were showing us and what food was being centered and celebrated, like, what a great season of Top Chef. Great job by the producers.

Great job by these chefs. Because even in this finale, each of them did something with flavor, with presentation, with preparation that didn't just blow the judge's minds because they hadn't experienced that before. It centered, you know, a food way or a culture or, you know, or a food heritage. that traditionally hadn't been centered. And, you know, you think about Don's, Don putting yam in the dessert, a traditional African and then African American ingredient.

Or Gabe using tapace. I mean, he called it a kombucha, but a fermented pineapple drink or using squash in his dessert. Or the way Shoda did a Japanese curry, you know, and his beef tongue technique, which everyone dropped everyone's jaw. And he's like, oh, no, well, this is just simple how we do it. It's like, oh, that's simple. Right. You hand skin a beef tongue, lightly fry it, and then cook it in the oven overnight.

Yeah. Great. Normal. Very simple. What other things should we hit from this episode? I think I would only just echo what you've said, which is that I understand, like, there's usually an element of the finale where the chef's families are on hand when the judgment is given. They obviously, like you said, they get to go home.

They get to gain some perspective. There's like a moment to sit with it and think about it. It's kind of cool when they come back and you're like, oh, look, the person's hair's changed. or they've done like something else. Like, you know, that stuff is all neat. I did get the feeling like it was almost like the bubble playoffs, like where they were just like, these are the three people that we got to the end of this thing. And, you know, you could just tell with them just being like four courses, do your best,

you can go shopping. Like there was no anything, the Willamette stuff, like all the local produce, like I get it. Like it was all there and it was all like in the background of it. But I just did feel like there was sort of a lack of pomp and circumstance for very, very understandable reasons. I also want to just, in terms of the season, a total triumph, kudos to everyone involved in pulling this off. It must have been incredibly difficult and challenging for any number of reasons, let alone the quarantine. But I loved the All-Star judging panel. I loved the chefs. I loved the, I mean, it was kind of poetic that the judging table for the finale was Gail Tom and Padma,

who have been together since the second season because Padma wasn't the host of the first, but that's 17 seasons with the two Crem de la Crem winners, the two all-star season winners, Richard Blaze and Melissa King. That was awesome. And also, you know, felt really good in a rewarding fan way that, like, I know all these people, I've watched them develop, I get to see their interactions and this idea that they really are, you know, it's a little TV hokey that they are a family, but it's, they do seem to be very fond of each other.

other and it's very sweet and supportive and fun to watch. And I think it added. They literally were bonded together. I don't think that they got to see very many other people for quite a long time. But Nedley is like, oh, do we have to go home? Like, I really like this. Like, this is really nice. And his, you know, him getting emotional about the curry and then dropping the hammer was

an incredible judging moment. I hope he's, I hope all these chefs are brought back in some capacity. Maybe, you know, as, as we've said before, as mentors or occasional judges, I don't know. But Dale is doing top chef amateurs, right? It looks like a bunch of. them are involved in that. And I think they maybe double film some of it. Gail is hosting it, the great Tiffany Derry, who should have been part of this judging panel in my opinion, but was back just for this finale. And, you know, I just think it bears mentioning, again, that like a year or two years ago,

and then I think you, again, in the All-Star season, we were talking about chef Eric from Washington, who was really bringing African ingredients to Top Chef in a way they'd never been done before. And the show was open to it, but there were moments when it was clearly learning and educating itself, like so many people and institutions have been, you know, where it's like his season, like he walked so this season could run in a lot of ways because of this season, you have a more diverse and educated judging panel being like, well, this foo-foo is off as opposed to being like, explain to me what foo is. And the power of Eric in his season is absolutely significant.

But I think that it's in some ways pales next to the significance of this. You were talking about that sitting around the table scene. it's not just Kwame as a black chef in that room. It's Kwame and Gregory and Nina and Tiffany and Don, you know. And so you just see this panoply of cultural experiences and diversity in a really wonderful and exciting. And, you know, it's a TV cooking show, but it has been a pretty effective barometer of not necessarily culture in America, but food culture in America. And I find it incredibly important as a heavy word, but I find incredibly affirming. You know, I went out to dinner last night and I just got to say love restaurants.

And it was, it was great to see, you know, I kind of had thought, wouldn't it be great to have a top chef the way I kind of felt last spring when it was on for Los Angeles. You know, and it was kind of like a warm blanket as everything was shutting down. And it was kind of poetic that this show came out, albeit one that. felt like it was from a slightly other time because obviously the precautions were a little bit more stringent. But I was like, what a great, you know, grace note for like, hopefully the end of some era here, maybe a rebirth for the restaurant industry, maybe, maybe like a coming back out into the world and going back out to dinner and going back out and tasting this incredible food. I forgot how much butter is used in restaurant cooking. Yes, and salt. It really can,

when you reach a certain podcasting age, it can really tip the scales in a lot of ways. That first bite, you're just like, I'm in train spotting, but then the second bite, you're like, I'm the baby crawling on the ceiling.

That is 80% butter, my man. Yeah. But it was, I just wanted to say, I just wanted to kind of echo what you were saying, which is that it was a, it was like a real,

it was very moving to have this show kind of at the bookends of our time, at least strictly indoors. Obviously, we're not completely in the clear yet or anything. But yeah. I love the show. I thought it was a triumphant season. I love getting to talk about it.

Thanks to our listeners for coming along with us on this journey. We try to be new critics as it were. And we're just judging the text and we're watching the show and we're loving the show. I do think we'd be remiss if we didn't note. We're recording us on Thursday before the show is aired. We have no idea what sort of coverage this episode will get or the winner will receive. But we are aware that there was a report in E. eater about Gabe losing his job in Austin in December when he had, I guess, finished filming

Top Chef and returned to El Commodore a restaurant where he was not the owner, but he was the head chef and got a lot of a claim from it for unspecified reasons, but violations of some kind. A few months later, it was announced he will be opening his own restaurant in Austin later this year, early next year. That is the information we have. Yeah, the exact quote was Aralas, this is from the eater piece, Aralas head. had to leave because of, quote, repeated violations of our policies and for behavior in conflict with our values. Yeah, I mean, that's all we know. So like you said, you know, there's very little information, verifiable information out there. And we're just kind of like repeating that

because I think, I think it will come up. So it's worth noting. So, and that's, that's all we know. That's all the sort of verifiable information that's out there right now. So we'll leave it at that. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus.

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may vary. Limited time offer. All right, Andy, we're back. We're going to do the fourth episode of Look. You hit something else you wanted to hit first, though. I did. I just wanted to bring up one quick thing. I assume listeners of the watch and the strong and growing army of CR heads are already aware of this, but in case anyone

isn't this week, earlier this week on the esteemed ringer podcast, the big picture, you and our buddy, Sean Fennacy, hosted your buddy, Quentin Tarantino for like the third time. you've had him on a podcast, although those were rewatchables. He did three rewatchables.

One, he did Unstoppable, Duncirk, and King of New York with combinations of me, Bill and Sean, and then he just revisited. He came back for the big picture, and we talked about the novelization of his film Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. And this is incredible. And I tweeted this, but I just want to say it again. Like, you and I and Sean, we've known each other for a long time. And we've had some great times, great experiences.

A lot of, like, is this real life talking to our heroes and, you know, having people on the podcast or whatever. For some reason, this one just makes me crazy. I just love it so much. It just seems so improbable and it's so awesome and it's a great listen. But I did want to ask you just since you are my friend and the co-hosts of this podcast, like, what was this one like for you? Just because, you know, as you alluded to before, you and I have known each other for 25 years. So when we met at some point when we were done talking about pavement and Arches of Lowe for whatever, we probably started talking about Quentin Tarantino because that was a big deal in the 90s.

And you were like, I find the violence somewhat off-putting. I know, and weirdly you stayed my friend. That take developed later. This is like Jackie Brown era. Yeah. And now you're just chatting with him about movies for two hours on a podcast. I guess I wanted to ask you what that's just,

what that feels like. But also, if it's changed your relationship to his art, to his movies, now that you really have seen him take up close. Not that he's ever been a closed book. I guess that last point

is worth mentioning is just that, like, Quentin's a great talker. And I, Sean does such a good job preparing and creating an environment on that show where you can talk about

almost any aspect of movies you want to, and there's a way to feel very like, it's like a celebration of all the aspects of movies. So Quentin talked a lot about this very obscure aspect of the larger film industry,

which are these novelizations of films, sometimes novelizations of the screenplays, but often just these adaptations that he grew up reading out of like drugstore book racks when he was a kid and reading the, you know, the novelizations for eyewitness or gremlins or we joked around about the, there's a novelization for meatballs.

And there was a cottage industry of this stuff. So this is obviously a labor of love for him. And it's a very obscure part of the movie making process, but obviously it leads to a lot of different discussions. And I thought, the thing about Quentin is that like when you're that good at talking and when you're that in touch with not only like what you're doing and why you make the choices you make and, you know, all the other sort of large, the large wide angle like look at your own career and you're able to think about that. But at the same time, somehow not be annoying when you talk about it. It's kind of just, you just kind of let him go. You know what I mean? And every once in a while, like I actually did find myself in like the second hour kind of forgetting that we were on a podcast. podcast and I would just be like, I just always kind of, while you were talking, I just wanted to ask you, what would have happened if, uh, like, your career hadn't worked out the way it would? Like, would you have stayed making movies if like you weren't writing your own scripts and directing

your own films and getting Brad Pitt and Lee or DiCaprio to star in them? Like, what if it basically had been harder? And he had an answer for that. He has an answer for basically everything and really thoughtful. And, uh, it, by the way, if you liked, and most people loved once upon a time in Hollywood, the book is awesome. The book is a blast. It's very much written in the sort of Elmore Leonard vernacular. It's really propulsive. It's a quick read. It's a mass market paperback that you can put in your back pocket.

And it's not the movie, though. It's basically, like, I think two or three scenes from the movie are in the book, but some scenes are changed their setting. Some scenes are elongated. It's really cool. So it was obviously like an out-of-body experience to speak with them. Which, by the way, is a tradition of those books. I remember picking up some.

of them from like, I don't know whether it was Karate Kid or Star Wars or whatever, and then reading something that wasn't in the movie. And as a kid, you know, this is before the multiverse gang. It had that same kind of head expanding. Like, wait, there's another version of this. There's more to this. I think the novelizations were instrumental in the creation of like the extended Star Wars fandom. Because like, ultimately, yeah, the ones that were for a long time, we just had those three movies. You know what I mean? Like there was, so that the board games and the toys and the novelizations really did fill in a lot of that blank space. It's really cool.

And it's particularly, I found it, first of all, you guys were great. And you're right about the Sean runs such a, Sean runs a great shop legitimately. Like, he is so prepared and it's, and it's a very friendly room, but it's a very focused room when, when Sean is interviewing. And I respect it so much. And especially when you hear him able to gently and in a friendly way, corral someone who could just trample over everything and could just talk about anything in any direction. in any direction at any time and to keep focus on that is amazing. But yeah, I also kind of have been digging this Tarantino media tour because he's, you know, he's a 57 or soon to be 58 year old guy, new dad, but also just kind of.

Did you hear the part about his kid watching Despicable Me Too? No. It's quite, I would love to hear your thoughts from Datington Island on Quentin and his 15-month-old son watching Despiccable Me Too over the course. Well, I already have concerns. Because I listened to, it's Tarantino overdose over here, because I listened to him on Marin as well. And he, you know, this is not new information, but he does talk about, like, seeing deliverance when he was eight years old. Yes.

And knowing that they weren't being nice to Ned Beatty, but he wasn't exactly sure what was going on. So, you know, it all begins to answer itself. But anyway, it's a great listen. And that was so cool that you guys got to do that. I love it. So speaking of things I loved. Yeah. let's pivot to the fourth episode of the Marvel Disney television program.

I'm just throwing up an alley for you, DeAndre Hayden, because I feel like you want to flush this one home. Go ahead. Well, this, to my mind, this was the first great hour of television Marvel has produced. I thought it was fantastic. And I thought it was fantastic for a number of reasons, some of which we've touched on over the preceding few weeks. I just thought that the performances were delightful across the board. I think the production design and direction of the show is really strong and compelling. But more than anything else, it was an excellent standalone episode that had a lot of highs

and lows and surprises and twists. It also was what I like best about episodic TV, which is something that I think all of these IP-driven big franchise stuff has struggled with, which is pacing. And this so far has been excellent. expertly done. You know, there were slower beats, obviously, in some of the other weeks. The last week's episode was kind of the, you know, almost legitimately the before sunrise homage, where it was just kind of a two-hander, talky episode. People walking and talking, yeah. All of the emotion and character work that was done was able to be paid off here in a lot of surprising ways, you know,

and in subtle ways. If you think about like the Mobius Owen Wilson and Ravana, I did not know her name until I read it in Seppenwall's recap, the Gugu and Botha Rae character's relationship. Like, how much screen time if they actually had across four hours, six minutes? Yeah. Maybe. But this is what I kind of wanted to drill down on. Those six to ten minutes were so well chosen and so well curated and well executed that

the turn, the heartbreak of this friendship being revealed to be based on, you know, mistruths or lies or betrayal. lands. That's really hard to do to plant those seeds so that it pays off later. And the thing that I said to you that I'll repeat here that I thought was so impressive was how expertly chosen each scene was. And so this is a little behind the curtain too. But when you're writing a scene between characters, especially with good characters, it's so fun. Because if you like the characters, and especially if you have great actors and you already know those great actors, like it could go in any direction. I mean, a Loki Mobius scene, how many pages of worthwhile scenes could there be, right? I mean, it could go in any direction. It would be fun, delightful, twist, turns, and surprises. But this is momentum-driven, serialized storytelling. And so each scene can't just be delightful.

It has to be a means to an end. And it has to be the best possible version of that scene without fat that communicates the most important things. And in lesser hands, scenes that only aim to deliver the exposition or plot driving content feel as exciting as widgets, right? And there are many shows that, even shows that you and I like, have scenes like that. All shows have scenes like that, but some more than others.

And this show, it's not just that it celebrates conversation. It chooses the conversation so well. And that's what really impresses me about Michael Waldron, who wrote the show and the writing staff he assembled. In example being early in this episode, we are back on Lamentus, in many ways we've never left, not since, you know, that terrible game seven.

If we're going back for Top Chef Lamentus, that's actually next season, they announced that. Now, that would be an incredible elimination where you don't just lose, you get hit by a meteor. Really on the clock. But we're back there with Sylvie and Loki,

and the world is ending, and we understand the stakes, and it's kind of beautiful and sad. And that conversation they have in that moment is maybe loki's are born to lose. You know, it's a fundamental existential idea for a character and for a show, and now for characters. And in that moment, it's delivered expertly that not only affects us emotionally and gives

us a deeper understanding of these characters and allows them to share that communal moment that also maybe they're in love with each other, which is fascinating and weird, but it also sets up where we're going within this episode, not just within the series as a whole. it's really well done. You know, it's not everything I've just been saying in this long monologue. It's not sexy, you know, but it's just they did the work. And I really felt it pay off. And for me, that payoff was pleasure.

I agree with you. I thought it was the best episode of the season. And arguably, like you said, I don't necessarily have the list in front of me. But probably, if not the best, one of the best episodes that Marvel's done so far. if I had an issue with this series I was trying to boil it down since last week's episode I think it has something to do

with the character of Loki himself because if you are in some ways I find it more complicated to have in his case and there's not many cases like this a pathological liar as your main character is more difficult than having like an anti-hero or an unlikable person

because at a certain point, you just sort of lose True North with what a character wants or what a character is if they're just always going to just lie. And I think that's obviously also driving the characters around Loki crazy various points throughout the MCU,

but especially on the series. And I thought that this episode inverted the entire thing is like, what if everything else around Loki is a lie? You know what I mean? What if this guy, who is a mythological figure from a mythological land is now part of a piece of theater

where we find out that myths aren't real, that gods aren't real, that the people that were supposedly controlling time and space are actually just robots, you know, or just like basically, yeah, it's just such a great idea, obviously, like Wizard of Oz,

like we've seen that kind of notion before. It was also very last Jedi. Yes, but I felt like, that made the whole series click for me. To see basically the way you beat a Loki is to lie to him. Also, just think about this. And again, I'll put it back in those same. The way to make Loki look like a hero or a protagonist is to have him now be a truth seeker.

This is the hardest thing, I think, about successful screenwriting, especially in this elevated, serialized IP age, which is these almost simple, although clearly not simple, decisions that you make at the earliest possible stage of the storytelling that click things into focus. And you're speaking of it, which is how do we turn this villainous, complicated, villainous, mischievous side player, who everyone is always happy to see, into the compass for a series and just basically reimagine what the character will be because we wanted to do something different. Unlike Saul. It's not unlike Better Call Saul. You're right.

And what, and you hit the two building blocks of this right on the head, which is how do we make a God relatable? Well, we make him essentially mortal in a immortal structure. We invert that. And the second thing we do is we make him the last honest man in a structure built out of lies. Right. And that's very simple, but it's not really in execution. and it undergirds this whole enterprise. That's why everything, I think, feels of a piece,

not just a collection of great ideas, exciting intention, and cool, you know, accoutrement, like cool, look who we got in this part, look who we could cast, look how much money we spent on these special effects. It's more than that. And, you know, just take the prison that Mobius puts him in, and it's the scenes with SIF played by a bizarrely uncredited Jamie Alexander. I'm curious as to why that is.

that, you know, people recognize her from the Thor movies. I know that I did. I know that I did. Chris, more than anyone, recognized her and was thrilled to see her free of her. Speaking of blind spots. Anyway, the design of that, again, so simple and funny because it's just Loki getting neat in the groin over and over. But it's literally a device to break the character down and build him up again.

And it gets him to do the thing that is important for anti-heroes to do. but incredibly awkward to shoehorn into a script, which is to be like, here's why I do the bad thing I'm famous for. Let me reveal myself to you. But he does it, and he does it in high style, and it's in a funny setup.

And then when he comes out of that prison, different. And we feel differently about him, and he has a different energy. And suddenly he's a hero. And then he gets melted and zapped. And that brings us to the other piece of the episode, which is that it was genuinely surprising.

I, the Owen Wilson getting, you know, now I think we safe to do. assume that he's not gone, but getting pruned at that moment gave him a great, um, noble sacrifice. I really hope that the next episode opens with like an eastbound and down esch jet ski scene for that guy. Oh, God.

I mean, we know we're getting him on a jet ski, right? Like it's too, it's too good now. But it also, uh, but, but it happening to Loki led to the mid credit scene that again, everyone was aware of and everybody watched right away, um, both posts of this podcast for sure. And it has Loki opening his eyes not dead, but apparently in some sort of liminal space where other pruned variants exist. And he's greeted by three different loki's. The most exciting of which to me is classic Loki, played by one of the great classic actors of our time, Richard E. Grant, dressed the way Loki was dressed in Avengers number one, the comic book in the 60s.

There's actually four loki's, Andy. Oh, was one an animal? There's an alligator. Right. I know maybe you didn't spend as much time sort of thinking about post-credit sequences like I do, but there was an alligator there. So there's alligator Loki.

There's Kid Loki, which is canon. There was a Kid Loki in the comics recently. There's Swole Loki. There's like a real built Loki. And then there's Richard E. Grant's like, yeah. And it made me love the show even more. Because again, if you're making a comic book show about variants and time and multiverses,

you better have fun. You better have fun with it. And you better go for it. And they're going for it. And I love it. And I'm very excited for next week's episode. I'm very excited for what the show is about. And I just want to say, again,

my excitement has absolutely nothing to do with the man behind the curtain. Right. You know, there are, we say this every week. There are multiple ways to enjoy Marvel shows. But I promise you, what's so great about this show is that, You can enjoy it, whether you know classic Loki or Kid Loki or whether you don't because of how well it's being made and executed.

If your pleasure center for the show is, ooh, Mephisto season has arrived, or let's get me the Council of Kangs, or I smell a mortis around the corner, cool. Yeah. But you don't have to do that. I definitely have downshifted in the amount of online reading I'm doing about these shows because I feel like after going through. through is Reed Richards going to be outside the tent? You're never getting over. Never getting over that. Or is, you know, is the power broker, whoever. And now we're here on the third time round.

And obviously, I think a lot, if you've just done any reading about this show, like Kang the Conqueror is the sort of looming figure. It's going to be played by Jonathan Majors in the MCU. But allegedly his first appearance is supposed to be in the next Ant Man movie. So, and when they asked him about being on Loki, he was just basically like, what, what is what are you talking about? He might just be pulling a cumberbatch where he's just like,

I swear I'm not con, but, you know, we'll see. That being said, I think that this show really figured out how to make the most with what it's got. Now, obviously,

they looks like a billion dollars. I'm not trying to say anything like about like the production quality, but it is a little bit of a chamber piece. Most of the scenes I was thinking that too this week. Are two to four people. They're in rooms.

They're in hallways. Chamber piece or COVID piece? Well, that might be one of the same one might go hand in hand. It might be hey you know what, we're going to spend all this money on real to real tape recorders and all this

production design and all these set design and this realization of the world. And if that means that we can't have 10 more actors in certain scenes or that we don't do this X, Y or Z scene, you know, maybe like did I think that like are the fight sequences in Loki setting my hair

on fire? No, but that's okay. They're pretty easily to get. This we to navigate. Yeah, they're good. They're fine. But yeah, like, I think that they're doing

a really good job finding the, like, Wanda Vision almost felt claustrophobic at times. Falcon and Winter Soldier, I felt like,

was almost trying too hard to be bad boys and, like, do you have a set piece in every, every episode. This is kind of fine in the third way.

Have there been any exteriors other than the Roxon store in the rain in this entire series? Everything else is soundstage. Lamentous. Get your, Lamentus is a soundstage. I mean, Lamentus is...

You obviously haven't been to Scottsdale in January. Fair. But I mean, Lamentus felt like Mandalorian. That was 100% like LED screens. They have the two of them sitting there and then they're projecting stuff for sure. But that's kind of impressive too, that it doesn't... So you think that all the one-on-one scenes

are kind of a COVID thing? No, I don't know. I don't know how much shifted. It also could be this is the show they wrote. and, you know, it was well-suited. I don't know if they had a downgrade stuff. Is this what she thought the show was going to be based on the trailer? I thought it was going to be more like Man from Uncle.

I did too. Like adventures? I'm glad you brought that up. There was a moment early in this episode where I was like, well, here we go. It is, I, you know, I'm appreciating everything, but it is making the turn that Marvel movies make, even the silly ones, to swashbuckling hero stuff with emotional stakes. I mean, there is a formula. There is a rhythm.

There is a vibe that Kevin Feige has imprinted upon these films and TV shows that have been extremely successful. And I was worried, I was starting to lament us it a little bit because, yeah, the version I had in my head was a lot more like, you know, goofball office shenanigans of them investigating stuff. But the show is called Loki. It's not called the TVA. It is doing the character work that, I mean, these shows are like little workshops, you know, we can take. take a toy out of the main playpen and just tinker with it until it's the way you want it to be before you set it back loose into the wild. So this episode for me, maybe one of the reasons why I'm so excited about it was because I started to feel myself chafing against that, and then

I just went with it because it was overall so successful. I agree with you. I think that I rewatched the trailer and I was just like, oh, you know, I thought every episode was going to be like Loki on another caper as an agent of the TVA. And each week was going to be, you know, maybe we'd have like a Renaissance Fair Week or maybe we'd have like a airplane like DB Cooper situation like they show. But that's really like that was just a

brief montage. It wasn't, it wasn't obviously to be. What's interesting is... There's a pretty cool show in that idea, but still. So what's interesting is that, you know, the way this entire Marvel industry is set up now is that a good idea can spark something else. I mean, that's the Disney

model, right? Like literally every stray idea in the Mandalorian was greenlit as a series. It's true. Late last year. That said, the purpose of the show seems to be introduced this omnipotent organization and then tear it down because we can't actually tell stories in a universe that has something this omnipotent. It's fake.

It's a set up. And maybe its destruction will either prove that it was always a lie or it lets loose the Miles Morales and multiple Dr. Stranges or whatever. But I mean, a. workplace comedy set in the Marvel Universe where Owen Wilson and Pillboy from the Good Place investigate weird moments in the Marvel Universe history, like, you know, take my money. Yeah. It's there for them.

I'd much rather watch that than Young Avengers, probably. Well, it depends, you know. Like, young, like. Here are my power rankings. Alligator Loki Show. Right. Number one. Office comedy with Owen Wollinger.

This is a Catherine Hahn like show. And then Young Avengers. My number one is the Richard E. Grant, Loki one-man show. Yeah. Like the bitter I've been wearing Kelly Green spandex for 40 years, chain smoking, pouring something into his glass that isn't water, just regaling us the stories about disrespect and Asgard. That's my number one.

But your mileage may vary. All right. So Andy and I are going to take Monday off for the long weekend. Happy holidays. Happy holidays to everybody. Happy holidays to our producer, Kari McMullen. Thank you for putting up

with a spoiling top shop for you. We will be back next Thursday, I imagine. And then we'll do Loki. Maybe we'll do a mailbag. We got a bunch of shows coming up. White Lotus is coming up. There's a few things.

We may not always be on the show together in the next couple of weeks because Andy and I are both going on vacations at various points in the summer. But, you know, we still love each other and we still love you guys. we're going clamming thanks for listening

and we'll see you next week happy 4th July Buranskys