The Watch - Build Your Own Night of Television, Plus an Interview With ‘Russian Doll’ Director Leslye Headland | The Watch (Ep. 328)

Episode Date: February 12, 2019

We build our ideal night of network television from a landscape of streaming comedies and network dramas (2:50). The director of ‘Russian Doll,’ Leslye Headland, joins the show to talk about her personal inspirations for the show (39:50) and creating the loop timeline (52:58). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Alison Herman, Andrew Gruttadaro, Leslye Headland Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. The Ringer's YouTube channel is nearing 100,000 subscribers. So make sure you check us out on YouTube.com slash The Ringer to keep up with the latest NBA desktop with Jason Concepcion, slow newsday with Kevin Clark, and tons of Ringer original videos like Halliluca or Kobe come back. Also, be sure to check out all of our NBA trade deadline coverage. Kevin O'Connor wrote about the ongoing pursuit of Anthony Davis. Dan Devine wrote about the five biggest questions after the trade deadline,

and Bill Simmons and Ryan Rusilla recorded a live trade deadline reaction podcast, which you can watch on YouTube.com slash The Ringer or listen to on Apple and Spotify. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and I have no Andy Greenwald today. That's okay because I was joined by some really great guests today.

First, we have Alison Herman and Andrew Grosadooro who joined me. to conduct a little TV experiment. So basically, I was thinking about what Andy and I were saying last week about the landscape of television, the 385% increase since 2014 in scripted TV. And it made me a little bit nostalgic for the era of when you would go home, you'd kind of maybe grab a slice on the way home, maybe you'd get a little dinner, sit down on the couch, 8 p.m.,

turn on your TV, and then you'd watch TV until like 1130 or 12, and then you would go to bed. Now, that might be an extreme version for some people. Maybe you watch just an hour of television or 90 minutes of television a night. But there was a world in which the major networks were trying to program nights to get you to do that, to do the 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. 11.30 p.m. even 12 a.m. night in front of the TV. So I wanted to try that with Allison and Andrew. Can you program a night of TV from all of the streaming networks, from the broadcast networks,

from the pay cable networks, the premium cable networks, that goes from 8pm to however late you want to go into late night of shows that have premiered since December 1st. So we're going to do December 1st to now. We'll do this again in a couple of months. And I think it's like a really good way of kind of cataloging what's on TV at any given point, but also what kind of shows people actually want to watch on any given night.

So we're going to do that with Allison Andrew. And after that, it was my pleasure to welcome Leslie Headlin, who is one of the showrunners on, Russian doll, a show that Andy and I adore, and we talked about before. And Leslie also directed a bunch of the episode. She was a fantastic hang. So she called in from New York, and we talked about

Russian doll and the amazing reception that Netflix show has gotten. So we'll get to Leslie after Andrew and Allison. Let's get into the show. All right, guys. So I'm joined by Allison Herman. Hello. And a little bit, we're going to be joined by Andrew Gruderdaro. And I wanted to do a little bit of an experiment. Andy

and I just talked last week about, like, the streaming wars and the 385% jump in scripted content that we've experienced since 2014, which is kind of like I can't even wrap my head around it, but it's really interesting to think about it in the context of you, Allison, because that you essentially come in on that wave. Like you are becoming like a professional critic during this time period of incredible increased production, like almost industrial revolution production within TV.

I mean, that number literally sent to chill down myself. fine. Right. And that's like, but as a critic, you don't necessarily know differently. But obviously as a TV watcher, you remember the days when it was, you know, at least basic cable or premium cable along with the networks, if not only networks back in the early 80s or whatever, like when I was first starting watching television. But what I wanted to do was try to think about TV now the way we used to think about television, which was essentially taking shows any show that's on now, whether it was streaming, whether it's on YouTube, whether it's something you watch on Instagram regularly,

or whether it's on CBS, and breaking it down into a one night, 8 p.m. to 11 p.m. primetime block, and then a late night block after that. Yeah, I run all of television. It's all my network. Yes, you have one night to make your must-see TV. Yeah, so this got me thinking,

as it is clearly designed to do, and mostly got me thinking in the context of something that you guys talk about a lot on this podcast and I write about a lot is how there's no such thing as monoculture or programming for everyone anymore. Like, theoretically, I could have gone into this and thought about like, you know, I want a little bit of this and a little bit of that so I can get this demographic and that demographic. But in my, you know, monarchy of one, I just decided I was going to put together all these shows that I am genuinely excited about watching. Like, not even in a professional context. When I am completely left to my own devices,

I have no deadlines. What am I actively looking forward to just like putting on? Right. It's a somewhat antiquated version of watching TV, but rather than, you know, you get home, make yourself some dinner, and then you watch three or four Riverdale's, you know. It's like, and that's sort of what. Which is full disclosure or something I do on a regular basis. Sure.

It's like, and I do that with old Bordane episodes. I do that with my wife and I will just like watch a couple of modern families, you know. Like there's lots of stuff where it's like, Because of streaming libraries, because of the lack of temporality, I think, that television kind of has now. There is no such thing as seasons anymore when you break it down that way. And there's no such thing as like artful juxtaposition, which I think was something that I tried to take into account here. And that's what I wanted to get at. So the inspiration for this project, this experiment, and the reason why I'm going to put parameters around it,

I'm going to say we're talking about shows that have premiered since December 1st, 2018 to right now, which is February, what is it, the 11th? I think so. February 11th, 2019. Time isn't real, it's fine. And so I wanted to give it that time period because otherwise, as we noticed when we were walking out to do this podcast and we stopped by Amanda Dobbins's office and Amanda's like, so can I just do the crown in mine? And I want to do this more than once per year.

Like I want to do this a few times this year so that we can kind of use this as a filter through which to talk about what's on TV, quote unquote, now. Now, the inspiration for this, obviously, is the famous must-see TV block that was NBC's block. And that kind of, at least from me, shaped my idea of what a TV night is supposed to be, right? So this was largely anchored by Cosby in the 80s and then Friends kind of in the late 90s. And during the Friends period, it was Friends and then another sitcom, whether it was like, Just Shoot Me or Suddenly Susan. Seinfeld, another comedy, Veronica's Closet, a bunch of other stuff, and then ER. Yeah, I think for me, the Platonic ideal was like that one season where it was like community 30 Rock Parks and Rec.

And like, I forget the fourth. But yes, I know exactly. We've tried doing stuff around Shonda Nights on ABC. I think there was a couple of things around Lost. Yeah, right. Lost had a kind of pretty strong block for a while on ABC. But for the most part outside of HBO Sunday nights, we don't really. have this. And HBO is really the closest thing we do have where it's typically Thrones and then

two other shows with two comedies with Thrones. And that, that's hell of fun. You know, like when that's happening because you can kind of decompress from Thrones with stuff. But I wanted to try and recreate that. So we're talking shows from December to now. And I guess why don't we just give me your block and then feel free to tell me why here, where whatever. Okay, I think I'm just going to try to walk you through it from the beginning. Right. So I am not a person, as you know, who regularly keeps up with or watches sports. That is a void in my life.

Okay. And that void has been filled by my first entry, which is like a full hour and a half of my programming block. It is the show that I think I genuinely feel the most affection and passion for. It is one of the only shows that I watch in a communal setting, which definitely contributes to that. It's Rupal's Drag Race. So Rupal's drag race is 90 minutes long? Oh yeah. They're doing the whole, like, VH1 is really milking it.

It's a huge moneymaker. They're doing like The Bachelor thing. Okay. It's relatively cheap. It does really well for them. And so they stretch it out. And especially right now, they're in an All-Star cycle, you know, which I can share my opinions about that in a separate forum.

But yeah, it's truly an incredibly made work of television. Okay. And that actually probably would be fun because you've got like probably you can watch along on Twitter as well and see people commenting on the competition. Okay. Exactly. And it is both funny and dramatic and tense and there's an incredible amount of skill involved. And it's just like over, it has literally been on as of this month for a decade and they have just turned it into a machine. It is so well done at this point. So from 8 to 930, we've got Rupal's Dragway Space on Allison TV. Yes. So you are in this hypothetical scenario,

you are in a bar, and then at 931, you are teleported onto your couch. Okay. And then my sort of attempt at catering to monoculture slash basically the only even vaguely, like, heavier dramatic selection from my lineup, which I also think is very telling is Russian doll. Okay. Which you've talked about. It is just an incredible show. It is both. Russian doll is on my slate as well. Yes. I think that's, if I had to guess, that's probably the only thing that's going to be on all three. Okay. And is the only thing that's really approached not even probably definitely because it's on Netflix.

It's just like the one thing so far this year that I see everyone talking about. Right. Which is actually something that I wish applied to my next element of the block. Okay. So it's nine, so it's 10 o'clock now. It's 10 o'clock. And I tried to go for a pretty old school piece of not counter programming, but like a complementary block where there's like a handoff and unity between the two halves of it.

Yeah. The first half is the final season of Broad City, which I think is being done. Also on my list. Yes, which is being done, I think, incredibly well. They are balancing, I think, both the humor and specificity of observation that's defined the series. But they're also very aware of the amount of emotional investment a lot of people have. And they're not being, you know, treakly or tacky about it. But they are putting in, I think, a lot of effort to show that these characters have grown and they're saying their goodbyes.

They started she work. Yeah. I was really disappointed that that wasn't like an overt wing parody, but the WeWork shots were worth it, I thought. And Comedy Central, actually, I just transplanted this intact. They're juxtaposing the final season of this beloved institution of a show, which is a callback to, you know, back in 2013 when we actually used to watch things together. Sure, yeah. To a show that I really wish we're getting more attention, so I'm just gratuitously going to plug it right now, which is the other two, which is by Chris Kelly and Sarah Schneider, who were former co-head writers of S&L.

Chris Kelly used to be a writer on Broad City, so there is a very shared sensibility. And Paul Downs and Lucian Yellow, who are two of the primary creative voices in that show, are also in the writer's room of the other two. It is a show about two young people, two siblings in New York who were kind of late 20s, early 30s, and they're much younger, like 14-year-old brother suddenly becomes like a giant musically slash YouTube tween pop star. Yes. And the show, I really love it because it basically zigs where you think it's going to zag.

Like when you think like 14-year-old musically star, you're definitely picturing like a monster. Sure. And they very deliberately make him like a kid. He's a sweet, vulnerable, you know, prone to getting caught up in the excesses. But like they love him and they want to protect him as opposed to being like, who is this creature that we suddenly have to babysit. And also like Molly Shannon is in it. And she plays like the mom. Amager, but instead of being Dina Lohan, she's also got her own stuff. And it's just both incredibly

funny and like joke-centric in a way that not a lot of TV is right now, but also is serialized and like builds to some really good payoffs. And I was so impressed by it because I watched it all in one sitting. I think it's been a little ignored because it's almost hurt by like how well it targets younger people. It is very literate in like how people who are aware of the internet like talk to each other, but it's also airing on linear television, which means that that entire audience doesn't engage with that style of content anymore. Would you say that, see, what's kind of interesting about sitcoms right now, if you want to just like broadly call that a sitcom, is that they were, I think, really helped by exactly

what we're doing here. Like it was more easy, it was easier to sort of sit down and watch a sitcom in a block of two hours of sitcoms rather than DVRing one episode of Parks and Rec or whatever and then be like, okay, that was 22 minutes and it was pretty good and now I'm going to go off and do something else. NBC, to their credit, has kind of like

rebuilt that from like the demolished ashes of the early tens, but now they have, they have good place, they have Superstore and actually my next block is an NBC sitcom because once I got in the rhythm, I was like, oh yeah, like when I'm watching a bunch of like 20 minutes super fast episodes, like what I wanted to just go to another snackable thing.

Yes. So I actually put what I, what my vote for the best executed of that lineup is Brooklyn 9-9, which feels like one of those shows. We have a lot of overlap. Yeah, we have a lot of overlap. I'm so shocked because like I assumed

that everyone would kind of have a private idol. Because you thought I would just have true detective and slow motion for three hours. Every timeline gets its own hour. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that show was on Fox for the first five seasons, was canceled, but it's made by NBC Studios. So they just brought it on board,

and it feels immediately at home. Okay, so yeah, that segues, we can do late night next. So I'll just run through my primetime block then. So mine starts with what you were talking about, with Brooklyn 9-9. It seems like a classic 8 p.m. Thursday night show in another world.

I paired that with Black Monday, which I was going to do Broad City, but I had a feeling you might, so just to mix it up. What would give you that impression? That I might pick Broad City. I figured Black Monday is kind of like where Brooklyn 9-9 is like super affirmative and everything is basically okay. And the people on the show essentially care about each other very deeply.

Black Monday is kind of the inverted version of that. There's just like a lot of cocaine and a lot of like really, really like elaborate dressing downs of people going on. And it works, I think, as a comedy, like an 830 type comedy rather than any kind of person. prestige TV thing. Like, I think it ultimately, and we've talked about this before with Black Monday, and this, if you don't know, is the Don Cheadle show on Showtime, also starring Paul Shear and Andrew Reynolds and Regina King. And it's about the first, the Wall Street crash in 1986. I do love that in this alternate universe, we're in a world where Brooklyn 9-9 and Black Monday would be on the same network. I know. It's like clouds of cocaine show with this like happy work family

show. Yeah. And then so for 9 o'clock, I thought I would I picked Russian doll as well. I think it's good to have a puzzle box show. And I paired it with something a little bit more, I think specifically to my tastes, which was friends from college. So, uh-huh.

I, generationally, I have a predilection for friends from college. I also like the fact that it bridges comedy with like a sopier aspect so that it feels a little bit more like I'm like, waiting out of sitcom and into drama over the course of the night, which I, for some reason, as a kid, feel like that's what Nightcourt was on Thursday night.

So, like, even though Cheers also had some darker moments, but I felt like Nightcourt was like, it's happening late at night, and it's 9.30 right before L.A. law. You know, and so, like, that would be kind of, like, getting me ready for the drama. Interesting. I have a question about friends from college. Sure. I'm just going to come right and ask it. Yes. Did it get better in season two?

Well, it got I just really enjoy the performers on it. I like Fred Savage is very funny on it. Billy Egnor is really funny on it. Like any ensemble, there's going to be parts where you're like, I don't really want to watch this particular subplot. It's hard to explain, like it's not just like shared play jokes.

Like it does actually have like a little bit of a real like kind of way of looking at turning 40 but still kind of hanging on to being in your younger more virile years in a good way. I personally really enjoy the show, but I understand. I wouldn't say it's like an example of like perfect television. I just remember if we're sticking with like the comedy drama framework, I remember watching it, watching the first season and I did not give it the kindest review, but in part

because it felt like it was, it didn't know whether it wanted to be sitcomy, specific, jokey humor or like kind of a dromedy where it's in relationships. And so it ended up like in the worst of both worlds where, where, you know, if I'm building a light up, I think if I could go from like hard drama to hard comedy, that's a better contrast for me. I know this isn't going to sound weird, but like it's basically like indie rocker Riverdale with jokes. Like in so much as like how much people sleeping with each other happens and also like everybody now seems to like somehow work together in various capacities, you know? I mean, if it were Riverdale with jokes, it would have. Let's see, I'm just going to like pull a random detail from the last episode of Riverdale because this is my favorite activity.

We learned in the last episode of the Riverdale that Cheryl Blossom wants to go to High Smith College. We've never heard of it before. Is that like Mount Holyoke or something? Maybe, but it has a headmistress Patricia and then in the episode they also have price of salt and talented Mr. Ripley references, just in case you missed it.

It's somewhere in Western Mass. I just can't decide between Smith and Holyoic. Well, I think it like it appears to be within walking distance of Vancouver because of how everything is in the Pacific Northwest and Riverdale. But yeah, so that was kind of the end of my, I stretched the definition of late night and put, basically did like a four hour primetime block.

Okay. Yeah. So my late night-ish programming starts at this point in the evening. And so it's 11 or 10? I think it's. So you've done, we're in the final hour. So you've done 90 minutes of RuPaul. 90 minutes of RuPaul, half an hour of Russian doll.

Broad City and the other two are a full hour combined. So that's-and-9-9 is like an extra half hour. Right. So now we're at 1130. You didn't watch the news. No, because part of, part of my point with the late-night- thing was kind of, I don't think most people, or at least certainly most people

of my age, are really in the mood to watch, like, a full hour of late night. Yeah. And the way late night is made now, because they totally understand that, is they tape them at, like, 4 p.m. Eastern. And then when they get something that they know is going to blow up, they have released a 90-second clip. Like, the

most recent one that I can think of was Stephen Colbert and Ellen Page. Okay. That, like, this has to fucking stop moment. And they, you know, the producers were smart and they broke that out and it totally went viral on its own. But that's like how most people on the internet at least consume late night. Okay, so you went to 11.30. My 10 o'clock show, no surprise, is true detective.

So that takes me to 11. Uh-huh. So now we're both at like, my late night starts at 11. I'm going to push out, you know, Jake Tapper to be like, tonight on the news. So now we're both at 11.30. Yes. So my 1130 is just like a half-hour YouTube composite of whatever collected late night has decided to deliver that week. Oh, that would a good idea.

So basically just like a bundle. So it's maybe like a closer look was really good on Seth Myers, so you do that. And like Colbert had a really good interview and Fallon had a really funny bit. Or, you know, maybe you just are in the mood to watch a whole episode of either last week tonight or Patriot Act. But like, I basically just reserved a half hour for like late night melange of your choosing. Yes. Because I think that's certainly how I consume late night now. So like I basically I basically said Patriot Act and MBA desktop would be my late night.

Ah, some SpondCon. Some SpondCon, but also, like, that would basically be the SportsCenter thing for me. So I would have watched SportsCenter at 11, 1130 at some point in there just to catch up on the night. But I love how Jason just kind of, like, sums up the week in Twitter and offline or online NBA life. I mean, as someone who does not practice the not offline, or I don't pay attention to, like, the other part of that. The basketball part, yeah. Yes. I find it very useful in terms of the part that I have the most like ready access to an ability to understand is exactly what Jason does a great job of breaking down. Okay. So let's just to recap, Allison, 8 o'clock to 930, Rupal.

Yes. Then we're going to go with a block of half hour shows of Brooklyn 9-9. Well, sorry, what's the order you had them in? I had drag race, Russian doll, broad seating. The other two is kind of like a mini, like actual programming block. Brooklyn 99. And then my late night YouTube. compilation than my final entry. Yes. The like full transition between like actively paying attention and just like drifting off to slumber

is bon appetit YouTube clips, baby. Okay. So I am as you know a passionate home cook. I'm one of like a few at the ringer. We have a recipe slack. It's wonderful. It's my, it's my retreat. It's my oasis.

It says you speak very highly of the rest of our slack. You know, there's the part of slack where you actually have to like pay attention and offer opinions. And there's a part of Slack where you're like, I love. like this. This is good. There's a part of Slack where an unnamed podcast producer might come in and go, who the fuck is Casey Musgraves?

Do we want to ask? I think we'll spare him. Just know that an employee of the ringer.com, one of the foremost Casey Musgrains booster sites. His name rhymes with the schmizemeck shee. Please add him, everyone. But Bon Appetit is they have this really fascinating

YouTube presence where basically they've turned like their not unlike us. Like they've turned their editors and writers into like on-camera personalities. Their test kitchen director, Brad Leonie, is a really fun series called It's Alive, Claire Safetz, who is now like a, she used to be on staff, but now she literally like just has a freelance thing for these videos, has a gourmet make series where she tries to recreate like Twizzlers or whatever snack food.

They have just a bunch of test kitchen ones where it's just like a 10-minute video of someone like making a recipe. But it's the perfect, like kind of brainless, but like really well made, really aesthetically pleasing. And like they, it's been so successful that they actually are spinning this off until like a proper over the top, like TV-ish thing. I don't fully understand how that's going to work. But like, at least once or twice a week when I'm kind of like, you know, it's like 1130 and I'm like kind of tired, but I don't want to watch like a full hour of television right now. I'll just like pull up YouTube.com slash bon appetit, which like literally my browser auto-crow. I hit why and it's just auto-fil.

That's where you know you have a problem. Do you get hungry? when you do this? I think like at that point my stomach is kind of turned off for the evening. If I do it in the middle of workday, that's a problem. Okay.

So we'll put Allison's block of programming for Allison TV up on the Watch Twitter so you guys can see that. Maybe you can try it at home one night. Try putting it together

one of Allison's nights. Oh my God, please. That would be so flattered. We're going to talk to Andrew Gododaro about his night of programming in just a minute.

Today's episode of the Watch is brought to you by Bud Light. Did you know not all alcohol products are required to list their ingredients? This was news to me, but Bud Light is changing the game. They believe that we deserve to know our beer's ingredients. So they put an ingredients label right on their packaging. Bud Light, brew with hops, barley, water, and rice. No corn syrup, no preservatives, no artificial flavors.

Find out what ingredients are in your beer, Bud Light. So now I'm joined by Andrew Goddaro, one of our culture editors. and culture writers over at the Ringer, and a multiple-time watch guest, and Andrew also participated in this building a must-see TV programming block out of the impossible to keep on top of television landscape. Andrew, thanks for joining me today. Hey, Chris, thanks for having me.

So what did you think of this project? Yeah. I thought, I mean, it's super interesting to think about, especially just coming from, you know, this world we live in now where everything comes out at all, all the time. Yeah. Yes.

You know, it's like 600 things a week just to try and pair it down and also try and figure out what might flow the best, what might make the most sense. You know, I, you're going to see in mind that, you know, maybe things don't really match up or I'm not exactly doing like comedy from NBC Thursdays. Sure. Yeah. It's not tonally maybe like the way we're used to it. Can you even remember actually off like off the top of your head?

like when the last time was that you watched a three-hour block of programming, like that you sat down and were like, I guess it's HBO Sundays, right? I mean, HBO Sundays are still pretty much the only thing that exists. I would say maybe like 2008 when NBC had like Steve Correll still on the office. They had parks and rack and they had community. Yes. Like that

that stretch was something where I would sit down and just watch it straight. God, is it 2008? I think it was. Oh my God. It was maybe the last time that I watched TV like that.

Okay. I mean, that's so fascinating to think about. I mean, that really should like kind of send shivers down the spine of TV advertisers, honestly.

Totally. Because that's like it's, It's so far off from, I mean, when I watch shows now, like, if I'm watching, like, a movie on FX, I just, like, I'll basically realize that the movie is on, hit record, and then come back to it 30 minutes later so that I can skip commercials in real time. But yeah, it's such like a daunting experience now to the amount, to imagine yourself, like, kind of leaving yourself up to the gods of TV instead of having complete control. Yeah, we've just. become more adept TV viewers at this point. Yeah, all right.

Well, let's start. It's 8 p.m. It's Andrew TV. Yes. What are we watching? So we're starting off with drunk history. Okay. Comedy Central.

It's just like, it's still so good. I think they're in season five now. Okay. But, you know, the premise is still the same. It's still comedians getting wasted, talking about something that happened, you know, in history. and doing an okay job, but while very famous people, you know, lip-sync their stories. It's still really funny.

It's just an easy watch. Yeah, it's a nice post-dinner watch. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not, like, definitely do your Wikipedia after you watch the show. Don't go retell these stories. But, like, at the same time, it does teach you a little something. Okay. So 8 p.m.

We got drunk history. What's on it? 830. 830 is Russian doll. Nice. This is the half hour, half hour hour. Yeah. So Russian doll made you, me, and Allison's programming block.

It's just, I mean, I will say I came into the show a little, a little salty. Just because this was the show where pretty much every TV critic who got screeners of it at the end of 2018 basically was like, this is the best show of 2019. So I was going into it with this like, I don't know, I was just doubting it a little bit. But man, it is good. A little skeptical. So you were skeptical at first, but it really does play off. Yeah. Yeah.

I would say within the first two episodes, I was like, all right, I'm in. I mean, it's just like, it's just a really well-written show. I wonder how that would have played, I wonder how Russian doll would play week to week. Because it's like those 30-minute dramas, like, which I think essentially, even though There's lots of funny stuff in Russian doll. It's essentially still a drama. It would be weird to get like a 30-minute show and then be like, now I have to wait six days or whatever to get, you know,

I have to wait a week to get like my answer to the question. I guess, I mean, it's like, I guess it's the same thing with like lost, you know? Yeah. It's like that you have so much time to really fold over on this. But yeah, it's just, you know, the plot is super tight and the characters are really good. like Maxine, even though I, you spend probably like all of five minutes with her throughout the whole show. It's like a great character. Sweet birthday baby.

Sweet birthday baby. It's just so good. Great 30 minute. Okay. 30 minute show. It's 9 p.m. So 9 p.m. I'm going true detective. Nice.

That was on my list too. Yeah. You know, super strong. This season has sort of been a return to form for for Nick Piz. I'm all the way in on on the story you know, Meherchelow and Stephen Dorf are both just going hard in the paint. Yes. Same with Scoot. I mean, it's incredible. Scoot really went for it last night. The Scoot Emmy Reel. Yeah.

I heard Jason Concepcion yelling on the podcast. Oh my God. But it's, yeah, great show. So it's interesting. You and I are obviously pretty attuned to this, A, because I'm obsessed with True Detective and B, because we work on a website that cover so much pop culture. True Detective is just like weirdly run the gauntlet in this season of going up against like huge, huge draws away from it in terms of programming. So they did, they came out, put two episodes up immediately. Cool, I understand trying to get people into the story, you know, after a down season two.

Got it. Then they went up against the Super Bowl. They went up against the Grammys. and now their finale will go up against the Oscars. Real bold move. Kind of an amazing, like, I mean, I saw Casey Boyes. It was at TCA's last week, and he was saying, you know, a fair amount of people are watching this.

This is creatively and commercially done exactly what we wanted it to do. So I'm kind of impressed. It does seem like a show people are finding on demand after its air time. Yeah, it does. I mean, we're so far beyond this idea of, like, monoculture. You know, Game of Thrones is the last bit of it. but this show does kind of have a feeling where you go to a bar, you can find like 50% of the bar will have seen it.

Yeah. You can kind of talk about it, which is pretty rare these days. Okay, so it's 10 o'clock? Yeah, 10 o'clock is where this takes a real left because 10 o'clock is the Masked Singer. And we're just going. So out of the pink room and into the Masked Singer.

Although if you walked into a pink room, it wouldn't be crazy to see a Mask singer in there. Yeah, there's just Antonio. Brown taking off a helmet. I mean, this show is just so weird. It's just so weird. All right. For anybody who made me, we haven't talked about this on the watch.

Can you explain the mass singer to people briefly? So the gist is there, I believe it started out with 10 people. They are, you know, like from C-list celebrities to Z-list celebrities. And they are all in the most elaborate costumes you've ever seen. And they're just singing pop songs while Robin Thick, Nicole Scherzinger from the Pussycat Dolls, Jenny McCarthy, and Ken Jong tried to guess who they are. That's the show. And then once an episode, someone has to take off their mask and be like, the first one was Antonio Brown. In the middle of him basically staging a mutiny against the Pittsburgh Steelers.

and you know like the judges are like Jenny McCarthy's out here guessing that Barack Obama is on the show or that Kendall Jenner is doing the show and it's just like high comedy in that regard and then it's just one of the trippiest viewing experiences out right now where you really do feel like you've you've been laced yeah it's like so it's basically like if they had this on black mirror you'd be like, wow, the future looks pretty weird, but instead this is our reality. Yeah, it's just bizarre. It's a great watch. You know, if you want to make fun of it or if you want to just like actually get into it and actually dive into the theorizing as to who is behind these masks.

Yeah. It offers everything, yeah. Okay. So is that an hour long or a half hour? It's an hour long. But they really stretch it out. That's great. An hour or a mask. Believe me. Okay, so you've gone from True Detective to Mask Singer. now it's 11 o'clock. What are you watching for your late night stuff?

So I might be cheating here a little bit because it premieres next week, but I'm giving half an hour to Deezis and Mero. That's perfect. Yeah, that's a perfect call. They, their show is so good. They, I feel like them above anyone else, they're sort of speaking the language of comedy right now is their voice. You know, just comedy is so based on internet speech.

these days and they are that and they kind of are the leaders in that genre and they're just so damn funny. Yeah, it's basically like pop culture part in the interruption, spoken in the voice of hip hop and online. So it's just like kind of the perfect show for right now. I really hope that

the Showtime version of it like catches on in a big way. Yeah, yeah and it's, you know, they're smartly they don't seem to be deviating from what they're good at. So that, I'm going to give a half hour to that. With my late night, I kind of am just picking out segments of late night shows. Yeah, that's what Allison said.

She'd like to bundle together the viral clips from that night's late night. So we've got 11 to 1130 is Deez's Samarro time. 1130, I'm going to give a half hour to the Graham Norton show. Awesome. Great shout. Oh, great call. That couch is just the best couch in late night. Yeah.

They, I don't know who's responsible for it, but the people that they, put together is just astounding. Like they have Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper paired up with the woman who's playing Doctor Who. Yeah. And it's like this doesn't make sense. And then they know it doesn't make sense. And they kind of just subject everyone to each other and sort of just let it happen.

So if you guys have not seen the Graham Norton show, you can find it really easily on YouTube. And my favorite segment, at least recently from this, has been, I think it was like in 2016 when nice guys came out and it was Ryan Gosling Russell Crow together then Jody Foster was also there and this comedian named Greg Davies who I think used to be like a schoolteacher in England and then like basically did like a TV show based on his experiences as a school teacher and he tells this absolutely bonkers story about being hung over at school I don't want to ruin it but it's like one of those things that like

you know the celebrities just like us like you can tell so much from Joe first of all Jody Foster seems like a great hang she cracks up with the story but Gosling is crying like he it's like the funniest story Gosling has ever heard and you got it you gotta watch this clip

yeah the show produces so many moments like that where it's like it actually seems like they're having a good time and it actually seems like they're you know coming out of their shells a little bit So that's, you know, that's, that's going to be my celebrity segment of late night TV. At midnight, here's, so I have 30 minutes left, right? So at midnight, I'm giving 15 minutes to John Mullaney and Pete Davidson to just review movies. Wow, you're genius.

Because of their mule thing? Yes. Yes. I just need that. Like, give me more of that. Like, talk about, you can do movies that came out this week or you can do Oscar movies, like, whatever. just talk about, do jokes about movies. That's perfect.

That's all I want. Okay. And then the last 15 minutes, I'm just going to give to Julio Torres for now. Okay. So just to do what? To do anything? If he wants to do stand-up one time, he can do stand-up. But yeah, just here's a production budget.

Like, go make some weird skits. Amazing. And it's just a 15-minute short story. Andrew, I think you should be in charge of late-night television. Sign me up. Yeah, I think I love that list. So Andrew and Allison and my programming blocks are going to be up. We can send them out via the watch Twitter feed.

I'll also post that Graham Norton, Ryan Gosling clip because you've got to see it. And the John Mullaney, Pete Davidson reviewing the mule thing because you got to see that. So that's a really, really, really good programming block. I don't know why aren't we in charge of TV, man. I don't know. Like, please. Okay, we'll bring America back to their counter. Andrew, thank you for joining us.

Talk to you soon, next. Okay, thank you to Alison Herman and Andrew Grotidaro. You can see all three of our programming blocks. We'll put that up on the watch Twitter feed. That's at the watch pod on Twitter. We're going to get into my interview with Leslie Headland from Russian doll. But first, a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by To Kill a Mockingbird.

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mockingbird Broadway.com. So, Leslie, the first thing I wanted to ask you about is, yeah, I have so many questions about the making of this show. And then one of the greatest things about Russian doll is the amazingly passionate conversation that has come out of the show. And I feel like everybody I talk to has a completely different read on it. What's been the experience of people coming up to you or people calling you or people writing you and saying, great show, here's my take on it.

And it seems like there's so many wildly divergent readings of it. Yeah. No, it's, first of all, I want to say this is like a dream, dream, dream come true for me. Like as somebody that loves, you know, I mean, name a show, like lost, twin teeth, the twilights, own black mirror. Like, this is like my dream. When we initially pitched it to Netflix, I remember Natasha described it as an existential adventure show,

and I would describe it too as an emotional puzzle box show. Yeah. That's like, it has all the makings of those shows that I absolutely adore and watch, you know, would watch religiously. But like, at the same time, it's kind of more concerned with, the EQ than the IQ, and you have to tap, you know, the audience has to tap into their emotional intelligence in order to solve the problem of the show,

as opposed to, you know, guessing the correct theory, if that makes sense. Yeah. So it's really fun to have people respond to the show and the way you're describing because inevitably what they have to do is talk about themselves and open up emotionally to talk about it. So it's like, it's just twofold of just the most exciting, feedback of like, you know, I enjoyed it and

congratulations, but then there's also that like, here's what I thought. Like, here was my emotional Roshak test. Like, this was my result in your emotional Roshak test. It's different than True Detective, right? Because, like, in True Detective, you're using your kind of background, whatever background you have in watching crime shows and you're like, okay, they wouldn't have shown this person if he didn't have something to do with that, but then I'm

still trying to figure out like why the Yellow King drawing is in this person's room. But then, with Russian doll, it's almost this kind of people are putting their own stuff onto it, right? Like, I watched it and I was just like, well, this is just about, this is about drugs. Like, this is obviously about what it's like to kind of get out of or be in the throes of addiction. And I was deeply fascinated by that part. But then, you know, Jason Zineman wrote about the Tompkins Square Park riots on Twitter. That is obviously kind of become a viral theory about the show.

For you, how much of you is in there, right? Because, like, if so many different people put their stuff on it, is there any sense of possession that you have over the show? Oh, no, not at all. Like, nothing makes me happier than, than, like, reading Jason's thread and being like, oh, my God. You know, it's like, because all of those things we talked about. You know, like, we did discuss all of the things that he, like, even before I came onto the show, it took place in Tompkins Square Park. and Natasha had talked at length about the history of the area and what part of the area she wanted to shoot in and where she believed certain characters would live and, you know, be in and all of that kind of stuff. So it's like, when I hear something like that, I'm like, yes, you're right.

And also you're wrong. Right. It's like it's also not just about that, you know, like it's also about trauma. It's also, to me, a ghost story. You know, it's about being haunted. it's kind of an amalgamation of, you know, three of my favorite movies, which is The Shining, It's a Wonderful Life, and Back to the Future.

Like if you just put all of them in one movie, in one four-hour piece of material, it would be Russian doll. You know, like, so to me, that's what it's about, you know, like, or that's what I think or hold on to while, you know, I'm collaborating with, you know, the other creators and the cast and the designers. But does that mean that Jason's wrong? Like, no. Like, I think that everything he said, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is great, you know. This is all really rad, you know, like, but I think metaphor is a tricky thing, you know, in literary terms.

Like, I don't think that, you know, one thing means one thing. You know, you look at something like war of the world, you know, like, and you can read that and at the time that it happened and you can read what H.G. Wells said at the beginning, his quote about, uh, um, mania and colonization and all of those things and you can read one reading into it and then you know Stephen Spielberg can make it a gillian years later and it can mean something very different you know like it doesn't necessarily carry a one-to-one uh in the same way that I think we'd like it to sometimes and and I'm also like a big fan of letting the audience you know decide those things for themselves like I answered the questions for myself when I was working on it with the writers and the directors and thinking to myself, like, this makes sense for me for this reason. But I can tell you, like, Jamie Babbitt, you know, our amazing director, Natasha, who directed the finale. Like,

I'm sure they had different reasons. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like in their head for why something was happening, you know, like, um, the writers, you know, Alison Silverman, Choraco Dunlap, Chaucon B.O, you know, like, these are people that I think probably knew what they were writing when they were writing it and at the same time would have a different answer than I have for why somebody says something or behaves in a particular way on the show. So I think that's kind of a fun of it. Like I said, it's an emotional puzzle box show. It's like you have to access something inside yourself to solve it. And what that is, for some people, will be the Tompkins Square riots. Yeah. And for other people, it will be something else altogether. And there's one thing I think

everybody could agree on is that this show couldn't be set anywhere else but New York. You know what you mean? Like, I mean, it could be, you could try. But, you know, one of the things that I, it was really fascinating is, you know, this show came out, I guess, two, a week ago? Two weeks ago now at this point? I can't remember. Is it, are you? No, I think it's only a week.

Right. I know. It feels like it's been out for a month. I know. Yeah, I think it is only a week. Yeah. And then I also saw High Flying Bird this week, which is also on Netflix and is coming out, came out on Friday. This interview will go about up on Monday.

And I thought that they actually went together very well because they both were basically the first, truly like post-2008 New York things that I had seen that I really connected with that kind of but they kind of like got at what happened in that city after the crash and after kind of you know you have this changing of the guard in New York City and you still have these little pockets that were being ardently defended but then there's it and I thought that that was so fascinating that you guys were able to get at that and I know that it's notoriously difficult to make stuff in New York now can you tell me a little bit about the character that New York played,

but also, you know, maybe some of the challenges of making it there? Well, I think that, like I said, you know, this was Natasha's, you know, mandate and dream from the beginning. She's lived in the East Village for a very long time. And, and, like, you know, even when we were, like, looking for locations, it was just incredible.

Like, she would just know where some, she'd be like, we should take a look at that, at the deli that's on this street with this thing, you know, like, or there's a synagogue that's over here. Like, one of the inspirations for me, Maxine's apartment was the Talmud building, which is an old Giuseva that is now an apartment building that's on the east side of the park. We ended up shooting on the west side of the park. But yeah, it just, it always felt like that was the snow globe or the Bedford Falls that we were

going to be in. You know, like that was our, that was our hill valley, you know, like that was where, you know, like any of these stories that are about what the show is about, like usually you have a locale that's kind of fixed, you know, whether it's fixed emotionally or physically like the shining, you know, like where you just kind of can't escape because of X, Y, and Z. But also coming from being a playwright, that's usually the case anyway, is that you're usually stuck in one location. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and you have to kind of figure out, even if it's more than one location, it's still. one location, which is the stage. So you have to kind of figure out what story is going to play out on that stage. So it was always a huge role, it was always, it was always going to be there. It was helped immensely by Natasha's knowledge of both living there and the history of

it. The challenges of shooting in New York are, I mean, listen, I've shot almost everything I've done in New York, meaning, you know, I've done some episodic elsewhere, but like both my films were shot here. I do a lot of my plays here. It's a place that I've had the pleasure of working in and have kind of figured out the ins and outs of what it's like to shoot here. What's fun about shooting in New York and also kind of challenging is that New York doesn't care that you're filming. Yes. If that makes sense, like no one in New York cares that you're filming, except when you're making too much noise and they want you to go away. You know what I mean? But insofar as if you're trying to get a particular shot or, you know, you want to go on the subway or you want to do this, that, and you have the thing, like, and you need to have your permits or you've got to like, like New York is not that interested in helping you out necessarily.

Right. But that's kind of what's fun about doing it is that it does feel like you're getting away with something, even if it's all on the up and up. You still sort of feel like, I can't believe we're shooting, you know, I can't believe we're shooting in Tompkins. Like I remember, you know, one of the first days that we went out there just being like, I can't believe we're here. Like, I just can't believe someone let us be here. Yeah. How long have you lived in New York? I've been here.

I came here to go to Tish in 1999. And then I moved to L.A. for about five-ish years in the 2000s. Uh-huh. But I've been here for the most part for about, oh, that's 20 years. Yeah. I know. That happens now. I was like, Jesus, that's 20 years in New York

with like a nice little pit stop in L.A. when I was first starting out. Yeah, because right after, like in 2001, I started working at Kim's on St. Mark's. So I was like very fascinated by how Natasha's character has these kind of like almost home bases, like the bar bodega apartment runs that she does where it's like you just always, even though New York is this sort of never-ending

maze, you wind up creating like these safe havens within a six to 10 to 20 block radius that you're just kind of like doing this loop of. I thought that's, it almost like lent itself really well to all the chronological loops that were happening. Because in her daily life, she would just be doing these five to seven same things anyway. So it kind of like completely, it was like a perfect setting for this kind of like, okay, now we're stuck again and we're starting over. Because it always kind of does feel like that. I love that you say that because that's exactly how we felt shooting it. You know what I mean? Like we were just like, you know, this is exactly what, this is exactly what it's like to be in New Yorker. You have like your snow globe that you live in and like, yes, you venture out every once in a while.

But you figure out your corner of it and then you hang out there. And it's funny, it does lend itself actually to that narrative device of a time loop or a looping day or. you know, for me, I mean, we, we called them loops when we were making the show because, you know, it's not a day. It's not a, it's a, it's a, it's a reset that's triggered by her death with a little bit more of a video game. Sure. Then, you know, she's repeating the same day. Like, I also didn't think of, like, the other people that lived in her world as being like, to use that, you know, a video game term, um, NPCs, non-playable character. like they are their own people

and like whenever it starts like they're going to do what they want that's not necessarily based solely on what Nadia's behavior is which I think is nicely summed up in the pilot when she asked force if they know each other and he tells her to fuck off like it's like

I feel like that's like where we were telling the audience like yeah these people don't care whether she's looping or not yeah that's the thing that you can't explain to anybody who hasn't lived there is that it's this city with all these people and when you bump into somebody like on a subway car or if you like decide randomly to go down 4th Street

instead of 5th Street and then you bump into somebody or you see something that you're like, wait a second, like of all the decisions I made in this day, how did I wind up outside of this store on 5th Street? And then I saw this moment. Or when you run into someone that you haven't seen in a long time and you're like, you're like, oh my God, all of the stuff that I had to do to get to this moment

where I'm standing on 14th and 6th Avenue. and I'm running into like my friend from high school. Like this is crazy. You know, like, it's like, you're right, it's like if you haven't lived here, then you don't know that, but I do think the show does a good job of, because it's, you know, got all of those dashes

of magical realism. I think it does a good job of kind of giving you a sense of what it might feel like to live here in that, in that way, I guess. Absolutely. Now, I read an interview that you did in Gothmas, I believe, and you were talking a little bit about the assembly of the writing style that you guys employed here,

that you were thinking of this season, almost the way people might assemble an album, like a musical album. Oh, yeah. I imagine that it must be, what was it like to basically have that feeling and want to have that kind of vibe, you know, for a show, while also obviously having a lot of rules and chronologies

and a lot of like, I'm sure, geography of like, okay, well, if this person's here and this thing, then they have to be here and this thing. Oh, yeah. And, like, cork boards, you know, you were probably going full, full Carrie Matheson at certain points. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How do you balance the both sides of your brain there?

What's that meme from It's Always Sunny? Oh, it's when he's like, he's trying to figure out, like, there's like a mail room, and it's like, this guy is getting mail, but he doesn't actually work there. And so he just decides to stop delivering mail, and he's like chain smoking. It's really funny. Yeah. That's, like, that's how I felt, and I think everyone that worked on the show. show probably felt like that every day.

Like every day we were just like, wait a minute. So, okay, it's not, you know, like, it's everything from, I mean, you're absolutely right. Like, we had, God, we had like a whole wall as we were moving into Pratt, a chart that was each loop, like, if you can imagine, like a horizontal vertical, you know, like, it's like, you know, vertically it was like, this is what loop, Nadia is on. You know, like this is loop A, this is loop B, this is loop B. You know, A, she gets hit by a car.

B, she falls into the East River. C, she falls down one of those hatches. And then horizontally, it would be the time of day. So it would be like Sunday night into Monday morning. I think she might make it to Monday night. I think that might be the furthest she gets. Yeah. So it was just this big table of like, that's what's happening there.

So each loop had a name. So in the script, it would say which loop we were on in addition to what, like, time of day it was. Or, like, it's just, like, it's just insane. You know, like, and then you started going into, like, our production designer Michael Bricker created an, like, I don't know what you would call it, but like a diagram that was essentially kind of a Russian doll where the party was the middle. And then as the further away you got from the party, like the colors that we would be used. using and utilizing would change. And so that's, so you would,

so the party was the center of it. And then as you moved out to different locations, they kind of meant different things. And the further away you got from the nucleus, like the more, I guess like darker and more natural things became. Holy shit. I'd have to look,

I'd have to look at it again. But it's like, so we had that, you know, I remember having a, what was called a loop meeting. During prep. We had a loop meeting with Natasha and all of the designers and all the department heads.

And we went through what happened in each, like, kind of like, okay, this is when pets disappear. This is when, you know, things start rotting. This is when, like, this stuff happens. This is when people start disappearing. Like, you know, like, it was all planned, you know, like it was all, you know, a very intense experiment of with all these limitations can you still make. great emotional art. Yeah. And the answer was yes, which I'm shocked by.

To be honest, like, you know, I was, you know, definitely a part of me, you know, while we were making this where I was like, this is just crazy. You know, like this is just insane. Right. Like, I really hope it works. You know, I understand it.

I'm not sure anyone else is going to. You know, like my collaborators understand. Like Natasha is totally on board. Like Netflix was on board. You know, like, but I just was like, I have not. no idea whether or not an audience is going to like notice and or care about all of this, all of this thought and planning that we put into this.

And so that response is overwhelming to see people noticing all of these certain things. Like, you know, there was, like, I remember one day when Alison Silverman, one of the very talented writers on the show pitched that like they're, the three guys in the deli that, that asked her for directions, like, should show up in other places. and, like, be other characters. And so, like, we hired three guys, I think, that we're all on the same UCB team to play these trio of guys. Who keep popping up, right?

Yeah. It's just, like, I mean, and just thinking, like, that is such a brilliant idea. Like, I don't know how we're going to do that. And then we figured out how to do it. And then, and now there's, like, a whole ride on Reddit about it. It's awesome. It's so cool. Before I let you go, I just wanted to ask you, we try to ask people pretty regularly when they

come on the watch, what are they watching right now? So I would just be curious to know, like, now you're out of the Russian doll kind of production cycle. What are you doing to, like, kind of decompress? Like, what are you doing to distract yourself from Reddit? Like, what's, what are you watching right now? Well, I usually decompress. When something comes out, I usually like to rewatch something I really love, because it is really stressful, even when the reception is really great. So I'm rewatching Venture Brothers right now, which I do probably like once a years. I also find YouTube

film critic essays to be really soothing like Mikey Newman movies with Mikey folding ideas Lindsay Ellis. So I watch their stuff. I kind of rewatch them if I've seen them already. I like to rewatch stuff when I'm stressed out. Yeah, like because you can turn like the one part

of your brain off that sort of like needs to know what happens next. Yeah. Yeah. And I get to like notice new things that maybe I didn't noticed before and like, like, you know, especially with something like Venture Brothers, like, you know, there are jokes still that make me laugh out loud that I've forgotten happen, you know, like that's a show that continually reinvented itself so often that, you know, it's just super fun. And that's what I'm doing right now.

I feel like I should tell you something cooler. No, not at all. I don't know if there's such a thing as like cool TV anymore because there's 400 shows on. So it's kind of like. Yeah, there's a lot of content. There's a lot of content. It's almost like if you go to a high school. with 1,500 people, and then you're like, oh, well, I just didn't know everybody, you know?

Like, yeah, I just didn't know everybody there. How could I know everybody there? Yeah. No, I, I, I also think that there's just something very soothing about the stuff that you love and rewatching it. And, um, 100%, I remember when we were shooting a Russian doll saying, like, um, you know, Natasha is so detailed, detail oriented and I would always joke like, gosh, you know, Natasha, only the people that watch it like two or three times are going to notice that. You know, like, and she's like, yeah, but put it in there anyway. Like, both on now, I'm like, thank God we did that. Oh, yeah.

No, I think that that's actually, I wonder if that's almost like a new responsibility for people writing shows now because basically it's the first past people do on shows seems to be, I'm trying to crack it. I'm trying to figure out, like, what their drop, like, what Easter eggs are there and what threads they're leading me down. And now, and then they go back and kind of get the emotional beats. It's kind of fascinating to watch how people kind of get into stuff now. Yeah, yeah. No, it's so true. It's so true. And it does make me feel like, you know, I always thought that about my films, for sure.

You know, like, the films I love are the ones that you can watch over and over again. The three that I mentioned are all movies you can watch are just as enjoyable to second or third or fourth time around as they are the first time you watch it. So, you know, I feel that stuff that way about the stuff that I love. And I'm glad that I was a part of something that people feel that way about now. Yeah, I think people will be rewatching Russian Doll for a variety of reasons for a long time. Leslie, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Hope to have you on again and take care. Yeah, thank you so much

and I'll talk to you guys soon. Thanks for having me on.