The Watch - Chris Ryan’s Top 10 TV Shows of the Year | The Watch

Episode Date: December 6, 2019

2019 was defined by two TV shows: ‘Fleabag’ and ‘Succession.’ We debate which one was better (2:43). Plus: other favorite shows of the year, including ‘Russian Doll’ and ‘Mindhunter’ (29:25), and some honorable mentions (54:24). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Juliet Litman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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coupon on your next cold remedy purchase. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, I wouldn't say it's my OTP podcast partner.

But you're close. That's Andy, right? It's Julietette. Hi, Chris. Thanks so much for having. me. It's TV after dark. Oh, wonderful. You want to goss? Well, you know, it's been a weird year where it's like all Bloomberg. It's all business, man.

We're just talking trends, acquisitions, and mergers. We're not really talking gossip this year. Okay. I guess you could do that. I can get down whatever you want. I'm here. I'm engaged with the culture. I love TV. The idea for this pod is to just basically go through my top 10 and to have some debates about it. So Allison Herman and I published our collective top. top 10 on the ringer.com. What was the biggest compromise you made in that list?

I think it was really more where we very quickly came to our compromise top 10. It was a few for her, a few for me, and a few we agreed on. A lot of it was like, where do we place these? There was some debate about Mind Hunter versus Tuka and Bertie about where to put it. But I'm going to have Allison on to, because I think she has a much different and much more like, you know, a very interesting list to talk about. So I'm going to have her on soon to do that. But today I just wanted to go through my 10.

Nice. It's you time. It is my time. It's very Tom Wagstams of you. What's his last name? Waggms. Wams. Wamsgams.

When you do like a list pod, do you like to start at one or start at 10 and count down? I don't know. I've spent so much time around Sean Fantasy. I've been brainwashed just to count down. Start from the top. So start at one. Start at 10. Start at 10.

I'm not going to do that. We're going to zag. I love to zag. I think that this is a year of two shows. you know, it's Succession and Fleabag. Allison and I put that as tied number one on our list, partially to get some more titles in there. We also did a ringer poll,

kind of like a bracket of like what's your favorite show of the year, and it came down to Fleabag versus Succession. What's the voting at? Succession 1. Did it? By a landslide, or was it close? It was like two to one. But that's like really, I think,

partially a reflection of our Twitter audience. And I think also a reflection of the reach of the shows, right? I mean, Succession is a Sunday night HBO show that had like week-to-week coverage and was built up a lot. And Fleabag was released quietly and was more word of mouth. It's just a really... Even though she's on the cover of Vogue and everything. Yeah, she's on her way to extreme stardom.

And, like, Fleabag will be like this quaint thing that she did. What do you think her ceiling is for stardom? Feeves? Yeah. I think it's really high in the UK. Like, I think, like, in the UK, she can be, like, a real household name and, like, a, like, a Jennifer Hanson type there. Hmm.

Who do you think of the most famous British actresses right now in England? Helen Mirren? I guess, but you think it's like Kili Haas? No, I don't think it's Killy Haas. I think she's really famous to us. She's on the most famous show. She's on the most popular show last year. Bodyguard? Yeah. Maybe the downed abigals, that show's really popular.

Dockery can't go anywhere in London. Yeah, seriously. And also she had like, she had like a tragedy to befall her. Did she? Yeah, a couple years ago, her fiancé died of cancer. Oh, my God. Yeah, horrible. I just feel like they're really, really famous there.

I think Olivia Coleman is also incredibly famous. Oh, it's got to be Olivia Coleman. What are we talking about? Because it wasn't she, she's been on everything. She was on Broadchurch. Yeah. Broadchurch was like one of those like everyone in England watched the show. Like every once in a while you'll get the like the ratings come in and it's like literally

three out of four houses watch the show. And Broadchurch is phenomenal. Yeah, that first season is incredible. It sort of started a wave of imports, I think, that made, that also gave Netflix a currency because it was like the place to see Broadchurch. She's never done a black mirror, has she? No, she hasn't. But was she and Dr. Hoose?

or did I make that up? She was not. I don't believe. She was considered to be a Doctor Who, though, wasn't she? Yeah. And the most recent Doctor Who's... Jody Whitaker? Jody Whitaker.

She was on Broadchurch. Right. Olivia Coleman was on. She was the mom. Right. So Olivia Coleman has just had like an absolutely stunning year. And I, we've already discussed it and you've discussed it at length of Amanda. I fucking love Olivia Coleman as the queen.

I wish that Olivia Coleman and Tobias Menzies were the actual monarchs. It would be so much better. But that would be bummers for the... them because then they would have all the baggage attached to it. Totally. So these people that you love would actually be like possible. Yeah. But I think back to Phoebe Waller Bridge into your question, it's such a crazy testament

to her charisma and her talent. Like, she's the definition of like she has prodigious gifts. It's like her and LeBron James. And Olivia Coleman is sensational on a fleabag and it's like almost an afterthought. Yeah. And like I like, like you kind of forget that she's on half the episodes. And she kind of like makes the much vaunted season premiere. season two really saying Olivia Coleman, she's excellent in the restaurant.

Yes. Let's talk a little bit about this in relationship with Succession. I think in some ways, this is a conversation about two different ways to appreciate television. Like Succession is, to the extent of a 2010 show, is a very old school show. It's very much in the classic mold of these HBO Sunday Night dramas that have conversation points, like, they have real momentum within the culture it feels like. and then you have something like Fleabag that's almost completely opposite in terms of its

formal innovation in terms of it's being like this 25 to 32 minute show that gets put up at once you can watch it as like a novella you can watch it in these little installments do you have a preference between the two or is it like picking your favorites? I don't have

necessarily a preference between the shows I could rank them I could rank anything but I do think I have a strong preference for week to week viewing versus binging, especially with a 30-minute show, like, Fleabag, I think I would appreciate it way more and have more affection for it if I had watched it over the course of six weeks. Do you think it works as well? Versus, you know, I think it does.

I do. I mean, Atlanta does. Yeah. And I've always watched Atlanta week to week, and it has that shorter form, you know, runtime. I particularly could have gone for more psychic time with the hot priest. I feel like the run of the hot priest was too short. And not even because I'm like, oh, he's so hot. But that's just like probably the most charming and enchanting love story that I can think of in a really long time.

Yeah, it certainly feels the most original on television in a long time. Yeah, and it came and went too quickly. Imagine if you had spent six weeks building up to the Fox moment at the end of the show. Yeah. I think that was an amazing payoff, and I know that you really loved it. But I think it would have been even stronger if you had to wait week to week to see it. Yeah. Do you think that it's, I was, we were having a separate conversation today about television, me and Andy, and, uh, I was, I was like, you know, Fleabag in some ways was the most talked about show of the year. Like, I felt like the most people were like, I couldn't, I can, I can stop, I can talk about fleabag all day long. But the things that Fleaback were about were a little bit still out of touching distance in the conversations. Like, do you feel like you had more conversations about people's relationship to religion around Fleabag?

No, definitely. Yeah, right? No. No. It was like more like, I love. I loved Fleabag. I loved what it said about, like, the human heart. Yeah, and I think him being a priest was almost like a gag. It didn't really sink in that he's a priest. And, like, I don't think his, well, I guess the end is a little bit up for debate, but I interpret it as him choosing his faith. And I don't think, like, the conversation about what it's like, what it means to choose faith has really penetrated very far. I don't think people are really talking about that. Yeah. I mean, I think the parallel between the impossible. ability of knowing and loving God and the leap of faith people take to do that and the sort of

leap of faith that's necessary for the Fleabag character to find some sort of inner piece, which is to like allow herself to love and be loved by anyone. Yeah. Is like the kind of mirror image that we're asked to see. But yeah, it also ends with such like sort of an ellipsis that it's not final. It doesn't feel like there's like a closing sort of epilogue on it. But this is like my own fault. But like I feel like I didn't get enough time to like let some.

some of these things sink in. Like, the show is such a revelation, and the physical comedy and physical acting of Phoebe Waller Bridge is, like, on the same level as Michael Richards as Kramer, I would say. But, like, I mean, that is a true compliment. Sure. But, like, it just went by so quickly because each episode, to its credit, is, like, a really tidy, perfect 25 minutes, and then it's kind of over. So I think, like, you were saying, like, it does really go back to, like, how do you consume TV? And I, I think I'm leaning towards picking succession as, like, the show of the year because of the way it was rolled out and the way that I was able to like live in that world for a longer period of time. Yeah, you know, at the end of succession, I didn't really,

I wouldn't, in no way am I calling it like I caught some flack, but I, a couple of people were like, don't try to yellow king this bro, like basically don't have, because at the end I was like, oh, do you think that Kendall and Shiv are working together and that like we're going to kind of see the grand plan revealed here? And that was largely just based on like what transpire between them and the safe room episode, which is, I think, my favorite episode of TV this year. But, you know, the way people enjoy and interpret Succession is interesting. Some people really like it just as like, I like the one-liners, I like the vibe, I like the jokes. And then there's like the more of the family stuff, or they're just like the more of the billions kind of rich person 1% porn that can happen where you're watching like Turnhaven and watching the Pearses and the Roy's interacting.

Why do you watch Succession? What do you like most about watching it? I think my favorite thing about Succession is its ability to surprise me still. I don't know if it's my favorite scene. I think my favorite scene was when Tom and Connor are telling cousin Greg that $5 million is bad. That was just like so funny and like really on the nose but without being too meta. I just really I really liked that. And I actually didn't really like the bore on the floor episode that much.

It was sort of like too garish for me and like too aggressive. I'm not really into Logan. But what I was going to say is, I did not see Kendall's rap coming at all. And I was like, this is so out of character print. This is so weird. And I thought about it. I was like, no, actually, it's not out of character.

No, it's James Murdoch. Yeah. And like, part of the problem is also that Kendall is like, just flies off the handle. He's out of control. He's erratic, blah, blah. And I just didn't see that coming. And it was so fun.

And like, that is an awesome, awesome episode. Yeah. I loved it. And there just is like a little bit more frivolity, I think, in Succession that I really. enjoyed in this current moment. That's the line it walks. And I think that when you watch

Veep, which is such a perfect show and came to a close this year, and I recommend people check out Allison's piece about shows coming to an end on the site because it was a really excellent survey of a bunch of things that I didn't even realize that many shows ended this year. When you watch Veep,

sometimes like the quality of one liner supersedes the quality of the character. Not necessarily in the way that the characters are written, but that at the expense of having an amazing joke, kind of like, no character has any actual, like, compass, moral or otherwise, but, like, Dan on Veep is just going to always go for the joke and do the most fucked up thing. And even though that sort of fits for his character, it sometimes pushes beyond the point

of believability. Right. Did you ever feel like Succession had that? Yeah. I mean, some of the logistical stuff, like, the fact that they're basically always traveling to a different place. Sure. That, even that to me, seeing, like, I know that rich people do that.

Like, there's, like, always, like, there are actual jet-setters in this world. world, but some of the sort of like extreme decadence of like also, oh, Stews and Greece, let's just go over there. Or it's like, we have to go do this meeting in London. Yeah. Because I say so. Yeah, definitely. Like that kind of stuff I thought was like a little beyond the pale.

Also, I think the constant, like the kind of constant convening of the family is also a little, a little out there. But what I really love about both these shows is they feel like theater and in like the literal sense of being in theater. Are, well, I mean, at least, you know, Phoebe Waller Bridge comes from theater. Yeah. Andrew Scott does theater. You know, obviously, Karen Colkin does theater.

Jake Cameron Smith, obviously. Obviously, yeah. Brian Cox. By the way, okay, we just do a brief aside. Of course. Did you ever see this is our use, but this is our youth with Kieran Culkin? The Kenny Lanigan? Yeah, because it's Lonnergan.

Yeah. I was just in that theater last week seeing Darren Brown at the same court theater on 48th Street. Oh, yeah, 48th. I never really put it together until recently, and I was like, oh, right. Like, there's like all these connections there. Yeah. When Jay came on, she talked a little bit about how wild it was to watch the show with Kenneth and also with her daughter. So crazy, because they know Karen, obviously.

But anyway, I think the way that both shows are ultimately, and you guys wrote about this in your piece, like how they both are tragic comedies, basically. But to me, they're both ultimately tragic. Yeah. And they're just so Shakespearean. I think one of the reasons they're so celebrated is they have a lot of really classical tropes in them that have been really really. well-interpolated for the 21st century. Of course, yeah. And it's kind of like, I feel like moved talking about both of them.

And they're both like huge triumphs and feats. And I think like just the craft that goes into them is apparent when you stand back, but it's just so purely enjoyable when you're watching. Yeah, they both provide such multifaceted levels of enjoyment. Like you can watch Succession as a drama. You can watch it as a comedy. You can watch as a piece of theater as a piece of filmmaking. It's really, it's so rewarding.

What do you think about the idea? You know, succession, if it was 2009 or 10, would be expected to last for six years, seven years. How many are they going to do if they said? I have no idea, but I think that there is something of a ticking clock on it because I don't know how many years you can have Logan in decline or... I was going to say someone needs to die. So the first half of the season, Logan's obviously in a coma in the first season,

comes out, regains the strength is it full strength in the second season but is obviously teetering throughout the second season. Kendall has now done two coups, basically. How do you avoid repeating yourself? Because I don't think that this is a show

that A wants to do that or B feels the need to do that because TV now I don't think people are like, yeah, you know, we just got to run this trope back because people love this show. So dial it up again, Brian Cox's fourth heart attack for Logan, you know? I don't think they're going to do that. I think he has to die.

And I've said this for a while. Do you think the show ends if he dies? No, I don't think so. I think there's just a different level of infighting. I don't know. Like, I know that Brian Cox is an excellent actor, but I just don't really enjoy Logan that much. It's not that interesting to me.

I think he's, like, in many ways, the most predictable character. And he's also mean. I think, like, I think when people are like, why one of the critiques of succession is, like, you can't root for any of the people. Yeah, I know that critique. That's like, that is the critique.

And I think it's because of Logan, like, honestly. Yeah. Because I think, like, should you be devoting your energy to be rooting for Kendall or Tom or Shiv or whomever? I don't know. But, like, you could. I think you could make the case. It's hard to make that case with Logan.

To answer your question, though, I think someone has to die. And in season three, I think, like, they're... I think that one thing that's amazing about the show is, like, in some ways, the stakes are, like, they're so high that they're low. It's, like, for Greg. Like, he's still going to be rich. no matter what. Yeah.

I'm kind of curious, like, how do you impose, like, really life or death stakes? Well, they've inoculated the show somewhat from real world. Even though, obviously, the real world influences the show quite a bit,

there's a way to watch it and not quite see it as a one-to-one Fox News situation, even though they make explicit connections. Yeah, and, like, is it weird that we just kind of moved on from the death at the end of season one? Well, I mean, I think that that goes

into your understanding of the Kendall character, right? and just the sort of the amount of crap in between him and his father that's still not out there. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's definitely it's hanging over it. That reminds me of Breaking Bad where I was always waiting for Jesse to find out that Walt killed Jane. And he never really did. Yeah.

Like that's like acknowledges the moment where Walt really turned, of course. But he never really did. And I wonder if this will hang over Kendall is like just he'll never be able to like. Like does he try to basically keep it a secret or does he own it? Yeah. Yeah. Basically. We can talk about some of the other shows on my list.

I'd love to hear the list. I found that my top 10 is pretty... It feels like it's in an aquarium. It's like it's almost behind bars somewhere because the top 10 is like... These were, with a few exceptions, I don't think particularly like debatable shows. The only two on my top 10 that I think people would probably be like, what the fuck are too old to die young. Well, can you just give your full list? Yeah, sure.

So Flewback and Succession. I have... I think you're more of a fleab bag guy. I'm going to be honest. Fleabag as like an experience and as like a note perfect show with the understanding that they took less shots, you know? Like so succession is definitely like, well, you know, you put up hardened numbers like you're going to miss them, but Fleabag went out there and went, you know, 10 for 15 and scored 25 points and 10 rebounds or whatever. The next three, the next batch is, and this is like,

for sure, is Mind Hunter watchman and unbelievable. Mind Hunter, I think at any other year would be the show of the year. I think that it got better in its second season, which is sort of amazing to imagine because the first season was so good. This season focused more on Holt McElheny's character from Jonathan Groff's character in the first season. Did you watch any of mine, Hunter? I haven't.

But I'm definitely going to because I fucking love Groff, obviously. I'm just trying so hard to see him in a little shop of horrors, TBD, fiddle workout. And, I mean, it's just amazing that Groff and Fincher on Netflix. Yeah. It's just wild. So Fincher directed the first few

Andrew Dominic came in and directed one episode in the middle of the season and then the last four episodes are all directed by Carl Franklin who's a veteran director who directed one of my favorite noir movies called One False Move that came out back in the 90s.

He came on the watch a little while ago and he basically does a suite of episodes that's more or less Groff helping investigate the Atlanta child murders in the early 1980s and even though it was shot in Pittsburgh like the recreation of period detail in Atlanta

I was talking with our buddy Rembert about it and he was like it's amazing like what they did with the Omni Mall and everything. So I highly recommend it if you haven't seen it. Okay. I was kind of wondering, though, like, the reaction to Fleabag and Succession has been so passionate this year. And this might be like a false construct.

Do you think that people have a little bit of period piece fatigue? Interesting. Like, as our own time period gets more and more, not only chaotic but seemingly like crucial. You know, sometimes you can go through years of your life. You're like, oh, we're just kind of like moving through it. And then you watch Mad Men and you're like, wow, it's like really you can just see modernity being explained here. Well.

But I wonder whether or not Fleabag and Succession say something about the modern psyche that some period pieces don't. I think that's interesting. I think Fleabag and Succession offer a really helpful frame and prism to understand life day to day, whether you're rich or not, whether you are a sex addict who led to the death of your best friend and opened a hamster cafe or not. Right. Flewback should get together with Kendall. Oh, my God. That should be incredible. I think they just, they help you understand things that you feel and that you see that maybe you weren't able to process or just sort of recognize.

And I think that's why one of the reasons why they're both really powerful. I know that seems like perhaps a ridiculous thing to say about succession, but I do think the family drama and just the sort of really classic tragedy of it is familiar in a way that people like might not. recognize. And so I think that's one of the reasons those shows are so popular. I think, I mean, I think the people's love of the crown is kind of a counterpoint to that. Yeah. I think it depends on the show. I think that in some ways, doing a period piece is almost like a cheap way to like go for prestige. And so to that extent, it's not helpful. But I think the recent history hits really well. Like unbelievable is recent history. Yeah. Well, I mean, unbelievable would go into, I could even throw into that category of the upper two where it's like not

only is it recent history, but it actually also, you know, Kaya was talking about this day, it actually has a very 2019 perspective on the crime show tropes that we've kind of come to really like, especially on this show, like treated a sacred text, you know, like whether it's true detective or mine hunter or whatever, where it's just like all about the investigators and the people who are victims of the crimes are kind of like besides the point because it's all about the psychology of either the criminal or the investigator, but the victim is kind of pushed to the side. And, you know, Unbelievable uses the victim,

not necessarily as this like manipulative, exploitive part of the show, but as like the sort of source of all the energy and fury and anger and also like the what makes these detectives persist with things. Right. It's by going through that Caitlin DeVie character. Right. I also think, I mean, I sound like just like,

old Luddite, and actually Allison and Miles wrote about this too, but that's another show that if it had been parceled out week by week would have been so much bigger. Like, there's nothing, particularly like this is true with, like, you can see it with the popularity of the podcast, my favorite murder. Like, I think there's a specific female audience for like that kind of show that just moves on quickly or misses it because it doesn't have time to build like a ground swell, you know? The wave crashes so quickly. It doesn't even really, like almost like the crest is so short, you know?

Kai, you might be the biggest unbelievable fan in this room. Like, would you have been, do you think you would have found it as, like, compelling if you watched it week to week? Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't binge it all in one sitting. I kind of spaced it out. Did you? Over a couple weeks, yeah. Because I find that, like, I wonder if they would have redone parts of the pilot, if that was the case.

Because the pilot is definitely made in the Netflix mode of you immediately start the next one because you're like, wait, I got to find out. Like there has to be some... It lays out a lot, right? Yeah, but like, I don't even think Tony Collette is in the first one. She's not. I don't, yeah. I don't think Merritt Weaver is either.

Yeah, she's not, right? I think they both show up in the first scene of the second one, so... And that's... But on the other hand, it's such an affecting show because you get a lot of time and you really have a front seat to the pain,

like the literal pain of Caitlin Deaver's character in the first episode. And it's so procedural. Everything about it is so, like, this is everything. that this girl is experiencing, and it's like you're kind of being moved through it. And it's not as highly stylized as Mine Hunter, but in some ways, it's, you know, in many ways, it's just so much more human than Mine Hunter. Because, like, even the detectives in Mine Hunter are intentionally

holding themselves at a distance because they are thinking about the people that they're investigating and that they're interviewing as data points within this research that they're presenting about the behavioral sciences of serial killers, essentially. And also, is it Mindhunter like a pretty dark show? visually? Yeah. It's very moody. So, yeah, it's very like, it takes the sort of, like, at the time, modern architecture and interior design of the late 70s and 80s and like all the browns and yellows and desk lamps and kind of, you know, leans into that really hard. Because one thing that I found really striking about unbelievable was when Merritt Weaver goes to team up with Tony Collette. She goes to her office in Colorado.

And there's really tall windows. and it's really bright in our office. And that's like really unusual look for a crime show. For sure. Like even Dexter, which I loved, was a real contrast between like the oversaturated sun of Miami and then like the really dark spaces that Dexter inhabited.

It's not like light to be shining through is really not common. And it's like a very bright show. And it's not like really interesting kind of like head to head. Like where does your sensibility lie between Mindhunter and Unbelievable? Yeah, they could have made a version of Unbelievable that was like Mindhunter

or was like True Detective. and it was like every frame is completely composed out of its mind symmetry and like, you know, crows flying around in the background. But they kind of make it seem like this is what like it's a little bit frontiersy, but it's also a little bit ex-verb chain malls and like, you know, office parks. The frontier note's a really good one. I was going to say it's very small D Democratic. Like there's the one episode that goes out of the way to give credit to the intern for like having a break in the case.

Yeah. And unbelievable. And I think it emphasizes. how the teamwork of the two female detectives leading that team really triumphed over the two men who just sort of went off on their own or whatever. And it was really about like, this is how the work is done. It kind of in some ways reminded me of Hurt Locker similarly,

where it was a lot about like the very small day-to-day minutia of doing a really hard job, essentially. Well, both Mind Hunter and Unbelievable are true crime in the sense that they don't do a lot of overriding outside of what you think is basically like in the case files. So Courtney Miles, who wrote a lot of the second season of Mind Hunter, and I know that Michael Chabon and I at Waldman worked on the season of Unbelievable. But you wouldn't think that there was a lot of like quote unquote screenwriting going on,

even though they feel note perfect. It feels like this is realistically what this cop would be talking about at this given moment. There's not like a speech about like justice. There's not a speech. I mean, if they are saying those things, they're saying them as part of like their daily dialogue. Right. Right. And it's not like showy in any way.

There's no like, showy and homologues. Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we'll be right back to keep going through this top 10. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order. The new action-adventure game from Respawn Entertainment available now. Jedi Fallen Order is the Star Wars game that you've been waiting for,

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Watchman is available on streaming and on demand and catch new episodes Sundays at 9 p.m. on HBO. Then listen to the official Watchman podcast, available on all major podcast platforms. All right, we're back with Juliet. We're going through my top 10, but we're also having a, just a general conversation about TV. It's just a wonderful format, wonderful medium. So far the top 10 I have here is Flewback Succession, Mindhunter Watchman, unbelievable. We talk about watchmen every week.

So we don't need to go too far into that. I think it's a remarkable show. Unbelievable, we just talked about. 6, 7, and 8. I have Too Old to Die Young, Russian Doll, and The Crown. I think four people have watched Too Old to Die Young. One of them might be the person who made it. Then me and Miles Surrey, and I'm sure it's some other, like...

Zach Barron? Film Twitter. He's watched some of them. I don't know if you finished it. It's a singular, singular show. I don't even know if I recommend it. I don't even know if it really belongs this high. No, because the thing is,

is that everything that we kind of think that we go to pop culture for, it tests. It's beyond boring. I mean, scenes that should take 27 seconds, take seven and a half minutes. There are often long panning tracking shots that go up and down a street

just to come back to watch Miles Teller spit and then he gets in a car and drives off. like it's profoundly anti-entertainment in places. I think it's also very much a commentary on the cinematic excesses indulged in by filmmakers when they're making art about this kind of stuff, namely like cops, cartels, drugs, crime, law enforcement kind of thing. Then the second half of the series gets pretty psychedelic and almost sci-fi in certain places. There's a lot of mythological stuff going on in it. if you for some reason have the patience to try and rock with it,

like I would say like if you got through Twin Peaks to return, it might not have as much to say about loss and pain. But it is a pretty profound show. Like I did find it to be the most beautiful thing that I saw this year. And since we've kind of gotten into this place where a lot of directors are making the move into television and using it as their canvas, it's a remarkable thing to watch.

Raffin, baby. Yeah, Nicholas Wending. Is that, did he drop the ref in? No, it's, because every episode, it goes hashtag NWR. Oh, I see. That's how he introduces it. Oh, my God, that's really, that's interesting, though, because you just describe someone who is a complete, not even an icon class, but just sort of like an anti-director. Yes.

Who is so disdainful that it's hostile towards the world in which he operates. Well, it's almost like he made drive and he's like, he's like, he's like, just. trapped in that world or something? Did he make another like horribly depressing Ryan Gosling movie as well? Only God forgives. What about the place beyond the pines? Did he make that?

That was Derek C. in France. No. Two Grantland heroes. Nicholas Wending, Reffin. Ruffing Wendon. Wending Ruffin, yeah. And Derek C. and France.

Yeah, we love. We stand. I think I did not read those articles on Grantland.com. But I know they existed. Yeah, but I think that there, a lot of it is like he's both capable of doing almost this like Tony Scott thing where he makes almost everything like erotic and beautiful, but almost like loads it as well.

He must have been furious when he saw that his network, Amazon, right? Put a hashtag on his episode. No, I think he did that himself. I don't think that anything in these. This man is sick. That's just like an insane thing to do when you're so disdainful of your own culture. And then you're like, hashtag, that's me being, that's like me being like, Twitter is bad and we need to get rid of it. It is enabling our president.

He is dangerous. and I cannot believe... That's like half of Twitter right now. And if you agree with me, respond by saying hashtag, get off Twitter. President Hatch. Yeah, exactly. It's sort of like... It's a lot like the embodiment of Louise Mench.

But like, it's just unbelievable. That's really, like, actually an insane person. So it's also an interesting... The Too Old to Die Young thing, I kind of mentioned this in my blurb about it in the top 10, is the too old to die young thing is, even though it was greenlit, I think, three years ago or something. It is actually like It was probably greenlit on like October 31st, 2016 and everything changed 10 days later

It's like it's an artifact in a museum now Like Amazon will never let Nicholas Wenning Ruff and make something like this again It's going to be rare to see any director Get this kind of creative leeway Like I know Netflix like the rap with like them It's like oh yeah you can just do what you want You don't get any notes but like A sometimes that's bad

And B I don't think that's the case And I don't think it's the case at Amazon anymore I think that they're moving much more into a safer zone where they're trying to find either big blockbusters like Jack Ryan or beloved critically claim shows like Maisel or catastrophe. And the bag, yeah. Yeah, right. So Too Old to Die Young is just like there's never been anything like it.

I don't know if there will be anything else like it. And that's why I recommend it. Russian doll? Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. Why not? Cannot stand in Hashley-One. Just too much downtown New York for you.

It's just a lot of like that. You're an uptown girl. A lot of bad hair girl. I am an uptown girl. I'm also Manhattan girl. I'm proud. Like Manhattan's a great place. So she though.

She's alphabet C for life. This is good because I really want to talk about orange as the new black. Okay. Which I also watch some of this last season, and especially the finale, and it was amazing. Oh my God. Amazing. I was saying Shikaya, I think it's like the most underappreciated thing of the year. The finale?

Yeah. And Natasha, major spoiler alert. Major, major, major, blah, blah. If you're going to watch it. Skip. We'll tell you at some point. when you can come back in. Natasha Leon's death is the second most upsetting thing

that happens in that season after Blanco being deported. The ice stuff in season seven is probably outside of all the devastating, amazing, and crucial reporting that's been done, like probably the most compelling piece of creative work about, I think, the immigration crisis in our country. It's absolutely devastating. But the heart of this season,

it's sort of like two stories that then sort of diverge. One is Tasty, and the other is Natasha Lill's character. Tasty who's kind of like descending back into criminality. Yes. I skipped all of the seasons that had to do with the riot. Oh, because there was like an entire season set during the riot, right? Yeah, there was basically like there were like three seasons that I think the fulcrum of which was this riot, which Poussay died in jail. And that's done Tasty into like this just absolute fugue state.

She just comes out of it in the final season. She's starting to get her GED. She's like engaged in being alive again. And it's really moving and that a lot of stuff happens with her. And then ultimately, and she's supposed to get out and she does in all this stuff. It's just an amazing, like, tying up of stories. And I think this relates to what you're just saying because, first of all, I really can't stand Natasha Leon. However, I do like her on this show.

I think the writing just really suits her strengths. And when she dies, it's genuinely devastating. It's really sad. It's like a character that the amazing thing about the show is it sort of created a world. and the people who populated it were, you know, you ziggged around with different people. And when she leaves, it's sort of like, well, and actually the show does need to end now because she's gone. And it's really sad. That show has always kind of like had an interesting thing for me where it was obviously built around Taylor Schilling in the early seasons.

And then it just, it did the thing that you kind of want to see from more shows, which is, doesn't always have to be about this main character that we started out with. Totally. Not only does it not really support it for her to always. be going back into like these longer prison sentences. She still feels like the least likable character. But yeah, once you find an ensemble like that, there's no reason you can't explore it with a lot of depth and care. Yeah, and they do really a job.

But what made me think of it, not only Natasha Leon, it's totally a relic of a past. Like, Netflix will not make a show like that again with like this huge sprawling cast that's like based on a niche book. Like that was real to use some MCU terminology phase one. Yeah, it's over. It's the catch-22 of, of successful shows is that, and you and I have seen it,

how many times with shows that we love, you're the big proponent of recasting roles. But if a show is popular enough to keep going, you're just going to find that the people on it want to do different stuff eventually. Right. And I'm actually like pretty, I wish more things were like Sherlock.

I wish more things were like, we might just take three years off. I know, and it's like Phoebe Waller Bridge. Don't go back into the well. Stick to your guns. Well, I actually, I'm actually anti-Bringing Flea Bag back. Yeah, me too. that's what I'm saying.

And she's saying no. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that just with a show like, you're right, Orange is the New Black is the kind of thing that we're not going to see like, this has been on for seven years. People have long-term relationships to these characters that are like have been evolving over like almost a decade.

And then when you watch that final episode and that epilogue of the sort of goodbye shots of all the characters, you're like, holy shit. Like I've like basically had these people in my life for most of this decade. Yeah. Also, like, on a personal level, I really remember our moment at Grantland when that and House of Cards dropped. And we were like, holy shit. Like, this is different and new. And I hate this Regina Spector song. But wow, like, every episode I need to keep going. I know. I feel like, I felt like so cracked out the weekend that House of Cards came out. And I was so skeptical about it. I was like, come on. I mean, like, it's like, even though I love David Fincher. I'm like, how good could this be? And then like seven hours later, like, I was like, oh, I didn't get out of bed today. And they have, like, the viral marketing where they had like the lawn signs in L.A. and everything. Everything, Orange and the New Black and House of Cards were like a real thing. Obviously, House of Cards has really been complicated by the Kevin Spacey illegality and everything with him.

But that was a real TV moment. And I think, and I also think there's something really ceremonial about Natasha Leone moving on from this phase one Netflix show to like a real, like, whatever phase we're in now, Netflix show. I think it's the, I have a, I already have a plan slash Bible for this. Yeah. So ordinarily, like in years past. you would see people be like, pitch this show, we all joined it, it was a success, we just want to keep doing it for as long as we can, and then maybe that has some attrition. I think that they've been pretty clear, if I remember Leslie Headland when she came on, they were like, there's a three-season

plan for Russian doll. We have it mapped out. And that's kind of hard to fathom right now because the first season feels pretty, it ends like pretty, it has some finality, but also I'm like, I don't really know how far, much farther you can go with this without it being like high, high key, like sci-fi of like timelines and stuff. But for the most part, I think that the thing I really responded to about Russian doll was that it felt like it was the show that Natasha Leon had been waiting her whole life to make. Like it had so much of her love and affection for the area, the New York City, that area of New York City and the kind of characters that you find in bars and in bodegas and in parks around there. And she is the kind of person who's just like smoking a

cigarette with like anybody on the corner like it's it's not weird to see her out in new york city like she's like a real new york character and the show really represents that so unbelievable to old to die young russian doll at seven let's talk about the crown okay i've talked about the crown a lot already so i just want to open up the floor how did you feel about the season three this is by far my favorite season there's not there's nothing i have no desire to go back to the clairfoy era whatsoever my only problem is i'm a royal watcher as discussed at length on the podcast jam session part of Bringer Dish. And I know that Charles and Philip are two crazy philandering egotomaniacs that are assholes.

I know that about them. And Tobias Menzies is so captivating as Prince Philip. And this young lad who has name I haven't cared to learn. Josh O'Connor. Josh O'Connor is so committed as Prince Charles. Tom Holland, watch your fucking back. Yeah. His fit.

Josh O'Connor's facial expressions. It's like, I can tell he sat down at his. computer and just watch as many videos as Prince Charles as possible on YouTube. I hope that Josh O'Connor just does like a Kingsman next so that we can see how good he is in the crown. Yeah, I mean. Like, I want to see him do something that doesn't involve, like, whatever work he obviously put into season three of the crown so that we can be like, holy crap, that guy like basically

became Prince Charles. Those two dudes were such revelations to me that I feel bad because I know that they're playing assholes. And moreover, Olivia Coleman is just like the best working actress right now. I think there is no one else on her level. Force of fucking nature. From her run from the favorite to Blebag to everything else she's been doing, she did something else that was really big. I can't remember. To now being another queen. She's played two queens in the span of a year and she's crushed both of them. She is a real charmer in person. She seems like the kind of person that her coworkers love to work with based on

how much Emma Sown, Rachel Weiss and Phoebe Waller Bridge all love her. And we haven't even mentioned Helen and Bottom Carter, who kind of overdone at the beginning of the season, but then her final episode where she's separating from Lord Snowden and just the way that she and Olivia Coleman play off each other in this season finale. They have an incredible chemistry. It's just so beautiful. I loved it so, so much. I think it's sort of like what a great show should be, and I don't care that they've taken

liberties with history. I was going to ask you about ethics and crown watching. Sure. So, you know, she's, there is some documentation. Manda and I talked about this a lot when we were recapping the show. There's documentation that she obviously had a lot of regrets, for instance, about how she reacted to Abervan. And then, like, even something like Margaret's speech at the end where she basically explains,

she makes a case for the monarchy, you know, to, before the Jubilee and the end of the season. Those are obviously moments where Peter Morgan's editorializing to some extent. Yeah, it's a dramatist. Yeah. But those are the kinds of moments that make this show more than just like recreations. Here's what I'll say about that. My mother is an amateur Elizabethan scholar. Okay.

And it's not like Henry V. 8th or Queen Elizabeth or any of the Catharines. We're like keeping copious notes, you know? Sure. And yet people feel like they really know a lot about that time period, which is like probably outside of the current monarch, like probably the glorious revolution, probably the richest part of British history, right? And like we're just kind of like, I would just say we're kind of ahead of the game and it's weird because they're still alive. But like there's an appreciation for history where historians and dramatists and people like Shakespeare have always filled in the gaps. Like the way that we understand, I think a lot of British history is heavily informed by Shakespeare and the way that he tells stories or whoever Shakespeare may have been. I subscribe to the theory is more than one man.

Do you? I do. Okay. But it's weird because they're still alive, but at no point in history have we've just gotten like one clear version of a historical figure, you know? Okay. And so it's cool that town and country played the SEL game. And any time you Google a crowd episode, the first thing comes up is the town country

article explaining to you what really happened. Like we've all been there, right? Yeah. So you can fact check it. But I also think that probably the source. spirit of like the middle-aged male crisis in 1967, or 69, when they have to come to grips with the fact that they will not be the first person to walk on the moon or do something nearly significant.

Yeah. Yeah. Or Ms. Armstrong or Buzz Aldrin's second dude is like probably real. And I think that the way that the queen had to negotiate the meaning of the monarchy as the prime minister became even more crucial, which is a big part of season three. Yeah, it's really well played. It's real.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think that is like a meta, it's a really good image of getting older anyway is that you sort of slowly feel yourself slipping into spectatorship rather than participating. Yeah. And also like. And that's that speed. That's the conversation between Alice and Mountbatten. Yeah. When they're like, you know, and she's like, we're old.

We're not, it's like, what do we? He's like, I still feel like I need to do something. And she's like, you don't do anything. We're just going to sit back and watch until we die. I don't know. Like, is historical fiction irresponsible? I don't think so. I mean, Yale Doctor is one of my favorite writers,

so it's easy for me to say, and Ragtime's one of my favorite books. But, like, that's not the final word on, you know, turn of this century race and Emma Goldman. So I don't know. Like, I just... It's interesting. It's like, I was, because of Irishmen,

and no spoilers, but Irishman is a major part of it is the assassination of JFK. I was re-reading parts of Libra by Don DeLola, which is his book about Oswald, but is also about the assassination. And, you know, obviously he takes, you could say he takes some liberties. You could say that he's doing like a slightly fictionalized idea

of what a lot of people believe that it was this combination of sort of nefarious forces in the world that led to Kennedy's death. But what he's really trying to articulate is a way of understanding why this, how this possibly could have happened and what the world's reaction was to it. Yeah.

I also think this is like a particular hobby horse of mine and just a pet interest. I have spent, you know, the last 18 years being very interested in the ways that 9-11 has been memorialized in novels. And I've read basically every novel that incorporates 9-11 and disaster fiction in general. And I think that... Did you read Falling Man? I did. Yeah. I loved it.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've really read pretty much all of them. Again, no spoilers. but when I was reading, well, this is kind of a spoiler, sorry. But when I was reading one of my favorite books of 2018, my year of rest and relaxation, it starts basically in the winter of 2001. And I was like, oh, this is leading off to a 9-11 set piece.

And it's just these famous people and famous events become frames for everyone to understand the world they're in. Yeah. The crown is just more overt and it's in the way it incorporates history and everything. but I just think it's a more like obvious example of editorializing recent history. And it's just weird because all these people are still alive and there's all, and there's people who. And the actors are too fucking good, so we wound up liking these people that maybe we should put under more of a scrutiny.

I mean, shout up to Albert. Yeah. Or Andrew, rather. But it was just such a beautiful, magisterial show that is certainly very pro-monarchy. But, I mean, how much do you just love Prime Minister Wilson? I mean, what a beautiful character and their friendship is really beautiful. And I think the way that she kind of interrupts everything that's happening in the home when Winston Churchill dies is also a really beautiful moment. And, you know, it's very respectful of the importance of the prime minister, which is cool.

And I don't know, it's just a really beautiful show. And the costumes are so much rich fabrics. Yeah, you really do get the feeling when you're watching it that you're watching it like best in class. Like best researchers, best set designers, best production designers, best. best, you know, director of photography, the direction, the acting is they're like, oh, God damn it, you British people. Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing.

And I think that Olivia Coleman is just the, like, she's in a class of her own. I can't think of a better working actress right now. I think she's like the next Merrill Streep. I think you're right. My last two on the top 10, Barry talked about a lot on the show. I thought it was an excellent, Second season.

I think that Barry is a really interesting case study in what Juliet and I've been kind of talking about a little bit throughout this episode of the pod, which is a show that maybe is bumping up against its conceptual ceiling, but I have every confidence that it could break that ceiling. So this guy, who's an assassin, who wants to become an actor, and then what? And everything for this show is, and them what?

I felt like season two was in some ways very much an extension of season one like it was the second part of that story. I think they could very easily make an incredible season three that was still Barry kind of trying to obscure certain parts of his life while also trying to engage in like this fantasy world that he's going to become an actor. But I do wonder whether or not

it could use a kind of a kick in the pants psychologically of like what if this guy has to go on the run and you shoot it in some different places in the valley or something like that. like getting Barry in a different world. Because part of what made it so exciting this season, aside from Ronnie Lilly, which is probably, you know,

the top two or three episodes of the season in any show, is the flashbacks to his time at war. And that just felt like we were getting like a different, a different feel for the show. So I don't know if you did you get a chance to see Barry this year? I've watched some of it, not all of it. I was, I'm glad you brought up the Valley thing because I was going to say outside Tarantino and PTA,

it's like probably the best depiction of California in Los Angeles. that I can think of. And that's such a big, like, it's like a real cliche to say that New York is a character and something, but L.A. is, like, definitely a character in Barry. Yeah. And it would be interesting to see what they do when they have to take it out fully. Yeah, right. So Barry number nine,

and I'm going to put True Detective number 10. Wow. Partially because I feel like I was very engaged with it. So we did an after show about it, and it got me thinking about a lot of the time period that it's set in and the local area it's set in, but I also just think that

Marcial Ali probably gave the performance of the year in this in this show, and I think it's actually quite underrated at this point. You know, I was thinking about it more because of watching in Irishmen, the de-aging stuff and some of the sort of across-the-decade stuff that happens in Irishmen, and in no way am I saying True Detective Season 3 is on the level of Irishmen, but I think it grapples with some of the same themes and grapples with some of the same ideas about aging. and considering the sort of cynicism that people probably had for that show

skepticism going into season three after season two and the fact that they were able to remount this thing and make it kind of unique and separate from season one. It wasn't always successful, but I thought it really, really was powerful at times. So that goes on my number 10. We're going to take a quick break, and then Juliet and I are going to come back and talk a little bit about some of our honorable mentions from this year.

Okay, since we are officially in the first, the holiday season, let's talk about our favorite holiday movie and debate why it's the best holiday movie. Hey, Google, set a timer for one minute. Okay, one minute starting now. Okay, Kaya, you know, one of the things that gets debated a lot around this office is whether or not home alone is a Christmas movie. And that's just a stupid conversation because that's just Bill. Bill's the only person who doesn't think it's a Christmas movie. But let me ask you this. Have you ever seen Die Hard? I haven't. Okay. Well, let me explain to you. Die Hard is the perfect example of why a Christmas movie does not need to be about giving presents. Okay. Because if you have Christmas hashtag

vibes, if you've got just a little bit of sleigh bell going, a little bit of decoration, and a little bit of that, like, anxiety that comes along with the holidays, it's like that really great mixture of elation and depression. That's where I think you get the peanut butter and jelly of a Christmas movie. Okay. So even if the movie is about a New York cop trapped in a skyscraper being taken over by German bank robbers slash terrorists,

it's like a bit of a point of debate in the movie, it can still be a Christmas movie. Okay, your turn. Hey, Google, set a timer for one minute. Okay, one minute. Starting now. All right, I'm going to go a little bit more classic for my favorite holiday movie, which is elf. Well, that's, yeah.

And there's no debating if it is, is not a Christmas movie. It certainly is a Christmas movie. The only thing left to debate is whether it's the best Christmas movie. And you think it is? Yes. Okay, tell me why.

So many Christmas movies are so, like, oversweet and so, like, they want to put out a message, Christmas is about love, and while this is, the message of Christmas is about love

is in this movie Elf. It's also extremely funny. And honestly, watchable at any time of the year, which most Christmas movies aren't. I think the thing that we both know is that if it's a real Christmas movie, it can make any time of year feel like Christmas. Exactly.

Christmas, as you mentioned, is a mood. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, all-star performance from Will Ferrell. Shout out Zoe Dashnell. Yes, great, looking great, blonde. And it's great. All right, that settles that, Kaya. Let's get back to our episode with Juliet.

All right, Juliet, we're back. This part is maybe even more fun than the top ten, because this is the honorable mentions. This is just rando shit that I liked this year. Do you have some rando shit that you like this year? Yeah. Just a couple of shows that I really liked. Then we can also get into some more internet fare.

Loved the boys. Watch that all. Yeah. That was great. We discussed it. We have a really cool video on the channel, on the YouTube channel about boys. You should check out. I really liked that.

That's the opposite where I'm just like, I don't wish I had spent any more time than I did on this show. It was appropriate. I'm happy I could watch it all over the course of a few days and then just keep it moving. Absolutely. wonderful. My number one hate watch of 2019 is a million little things on ABC, which is an absolute trash show. Like, it's completely trash.

This is the This Is Us kind of riff. Yeah. It's like the only good part about it is James Rodei, who you might know from Syke. Okay. He's actually really good on it. Everyone else doesn't make sense. The writing is terrible. I'm like, why is a show set in Boston?

No one's been dying for a Boston show. And it's like not even like real, it doesn't have like a real flavor of Boston. And it's just, it's so bad, but I can't stop watching. This is us is, like, way more redeeming than this show. Right. But I, like, look forward to watching it, like, when it's on. I'm like, okay, great. Like, how long, 20 minutes in, okay, hit the DVR, let's go.

Yeah. I, like, can't stop, but it's also trash. Okay. Pure trash, Grazenet and Madamy deserves a better Thursday Night Partner. Oh, my God. That's quite an insult to say that. Yeah. What else besides a million little things?

I mentioned Orange is the New Black. I really just urge people to watch that if they have. haven't. I'll shout out a show that you and I both like Fossie Verdon. Oh yeah, I loved Fossi Verdon. I thought stronger maybe in the beginning part of the season and then had a couple of really standout moments in the second, but Michelle Williams, Sam Rockwell. Michelle Williams is up there for performance of the year. She was really, really, really good. And also just that was a real mood and also like some great sweaters. Absolutely. I have what we do in the shadows. Very funny FX comedy based on the Tycho Watiti movie. And it's

It's just an excellent, excellent use of intellectual property lying around. There was no reason for them to make a show out of that, but it's fucking hilarious. Have you watched The Morning Show? I have. Do you consider it? Like, you're just meh. You don't even feel strongly about it. How many have you watched?

Three. Okay. Do you want to know what? 55 minutes is too long for that show. I'm sorry. Let's get it down to 40 and maybe I'm back in. Okay. There's a lot of fat there.

I also can't. We should do like the way they do the baby Yoda edits of Mandalorian or just the gifts. Like, you should just get the 40-minute, the 30-minute version of morning show with no overhead shots of New York City. I don't enjoy Reese Spouterspoon as an actress. I like her a lot as a human. Jesus Christ. But I found big little lies, like impenetrable for me. The whole thing? Yeah. Wow. I really did not like it. Kai's ears are bleeding right now. I'm so sorry, Kai. I found it impenetrable, and I didn't finish the season, even though there's only seven episodes. I just was sort of like, I'm done here. One thing I want to do. One thing I wanted to do,

to ask you about, may I? Stranger Thanks. Yeah, sure. Was it ever a top ten show? Yeah, the first season, for sure. It was very sweet. Was it because it was... The second season, I have a lot of affection for, even though I think it's a little bit of a minor step down.

The third season, I really enjoyed vibes-wise, but it's like, it's just an example of, like, I don't think that they started that show knowing the mythology and narrative structure of, like, what the world was that they're doing, and now they're kind of forced to. to make it into an amusement park and also like a Thrones thing where they're like the upside down has this logic and here's the big bad

and here's what these guys are, here's the stakes of this show and it's probably should be closer to like dazed and confused and diner at this point but it's just they've got to make it into like a fantasy show. Diner.

No one's talking about diner. Yeah, what's up with that? Barry Levinson, we see you. I think a problem with Stranger Things is those kids got too famous because per the hottest take I would have recasted that show.

I would have been like, this show is always about seventh graders and about like getting to becoming friends and getting familiar with like the source text of Back to the Future and all this different stuff. And I think that the fame

of Finn Wolfhard and Millie Bobby Brown who's like literally one of those famous people in the world is crazy. Really like ate the show. I also think that there are practicalities that go into making TV shows especially when people get more famous in terms of their scheduling

and stuff like that impact that show. I have no background information about that, but it just feels like they had Millie Bobby Brown for X amount of time. And they shot all her stuff. And if it didn't line up with another... So they, yeah, they're all paired off in this season.

Yeah. For like... And then they all get back together at the end of the season for like the big fight. But I thought that the mall stuff was really adorable and like enjoyable. The American Mall is like a really rich text. Yeah.

And there's an abandoned mall and too old to die young. Oh, is there? Yeah, FYI. And you mentioned that. with Mind Hunter as well. And I do think that, like, mall programming is something I'm, like, actually really interested in. Yeah, let's get a mallathon going.

Just, yeah. Let's start with the Safe By the Bell mall episodes. I mean, there's some really good ones. Have you ever seen those? I have, yeah. When Zach dates the homeless girl, which is, like, really not aged well. And also, when they think they're... Ever.

When they think they're... That's definitely out there. Prince Philip. Prince Philip. Zach dating the homeless girl from the mall and TBD. But I just think it's interesting. Stranger Things also, to me, feels like... It's time. It's so popular. They won't stop making it, but they probably should.

Yeah, I think they're going to make five if they can. But I don't know if that's possible. I know they're making four and they're going to try and get it out faster than they did three. But I think that they were hoping to make five. Speaking of Netflix shows about teenagers, I really like the society, which is essentially like a post-apocalyptic version of party of five. Made by the guy made party of five. Fossy Verdon, we said, what we do in the shadows, we said, Morning Show, Euphoria. I liked Euphoria. I had a weird summer, so I was just sort of like, meh. No? Okay.

I, as you know, I was waking up Wednesday, 6 a.m. to watch four weddings and a funeral. That's right. I was busy. Undone, a really, really cool show on Amazon. I love Duned. You know, I feel like deep underrated at this point. Somehow, we've gone from just a given and overrated or with Julie Lou Dreyfus to like, actually we're not discussing her enough. She's a gift.

And I think that that show obviously was the perception of that show changed a lot in the Trump Barra, but not in any fault of that shows, but it was just like when you're trying to make a satire of Washington, and then Washington becomes more satirical than your show, it's a problem. I felt like that also happened a little bit with Good Fight this year, which I know is a very niche thing. I know that you, I don't think you've messed with it, right? You watched the whole thing. I skipped parts of season one.

I went straight to season two. And it's still excellent routinely, but is also like something. Sometimes if you want to break from the Trump stuff, it's not the place to look. Yeah. Also, weird use of Audrey McDonald, in my opinion. I think they could be doing something different with her. I don't know. I love...

Like more stage stuff? I just think she's really, like, not... Her character doesn't really make sense. And I don't know. I just think... I miss the sort of... There's no, like, Tette on the Good Fight, which was a hallmark of the good wife. Right.

And I missed that a lot. Damn, Free Margulies. I don't know. Everyone hates Marguerlea. She's coming for billions, though. I can't wait. I have to say I love billions. Billions is just really fun. I came late to it, and then I really enjoyed it.

I really like Mandalorian, as you guys have heard on this show. I wanted to shout out two things on YouTube. One is Gourmet Makes, which made me in Alice's top 10. It's like a beloved Bon Appetit show, obviously. Shout out Claire. And the other is No Laying Up Strapped, which is a golf video show on the No Laying Up channel. they're a podcast and this really fun company that does all this like cool stuff around golf which obviously I'm obsessed with but beyond that Strapped is a show where these two guys Neil and Randy I think I've talked about this before the show are given a very limited amount of money like I think 500 bucks

and they have to go play three rounds of golf in a city somewhere and use their money is like all the rounds all their meals and all their lodging has to come out of this $500 so they'll like stay in an Airbnb eat a hot dog go play around a golf at a public course. But it's really more like in the tradition of Anthony Borden shows where it's about like the towns and the areas that they're visiting. And they did Reno this year,

which is a city that I literally like can't wait to get out of every time I'm in it. And it made me be like, should I be spending more time in Reno? Oh my God. Wow. Fantastic show.

That's on the No Laying Up YouTube channel and Gourmet makes us obviously on the Bon Appetit YouTube channel. I just want to shout out a few of my favorite James Corden sketches of the year. Please do. Actually, that's not true. I just want to shout out one episode of Carpull karaoke, which was a Celine Dion one in Vegas.

And she's having a little bit of a renaissance because she's on tour right now. But Celine Dion is like just otherworldly. She's also like a relic of a different time. Like it's really hard to imagine a French Canadian becoming world famous for her music going forward. For power ballads. Which is not even primarily in English at first. Yeah. And hearing her talk about how she didn't even know like what kind of shoes she was.

had and just like giving away shoes because she's got so many. Just around people on Vegas was like really amazing. And that was really dope. I have to say having, I'm, believe it or not, you probably won't believe it because I used to watch it all the time and we shared an office. I've kind of moved on from carpal karaoke emotionally. Do you think that it's become too like commodified? Too many assholes on it. I'm just like, I don't want Kanye West on this. That's an absolute pass for me. But that was like a highlight. If you had to do carpool karaoke with Prince Philip or Kanye, who would you choose? Prince Philip. No, there's no question. I know thank you on Kanye.

Also, Kanye wouldn't talk. Prince Philip probably would talk to you. Okay. Or he would at least get into a car accident. He'd be like, did you ever see the moon landing? Yeah. I pick Menzies, though. Tobias Menzies, like, let's just, sorry, this is not how you want to end this end of the year podcast, but I just want to mention it's kind of end of the decade content.

Yeah. We got Honorable Woman. Yep. Edmore Tully and Prince Phyllis. Is he on Outlander, too? I think he is, yes. Yeah. Didn't watch that, though.

What a run for him. What a run. I love. He was the fucking man on honorable woman. He's incredible an honorable woman. He's like, that's probably his most, like, straight up, likable character, and yet he's still an assassin. I mean, it's just great shit. He's so good.

It blows me away. Like, obviously, Olivia Coleman wins the show. She's the fucking queen. But you would say Menzies and Olivia Coleman may be your favorite things are the decade outside of Adele and Carbill. And Carbill karaoke. Foof. And Lin-Mindwell, Miranda. Yeah.

Those are your five. You're starting five. It's a good five. Remember we did that? Yeah. That was an early ringer bit. Yeah, I mean, it was a good one. I think, yeah, I mean.

It was like, who would you ride or die for no matter what? You're five. And it was literally most people were just like, you're like five of my favorite people. Yeah. Tate Frazier had the best one. I can't remember who it is. It was Daniel Craig, Christopher Nolan, like Vince Carter. Yeah.

Who's an Allerringer podcaster and two other people that I can't remember. The thing I've learned about myself, particularly this year, is that my real heroes I don't want to interact with. And that is definitely true of that five. I don't actually want to hang out with Menzies. No, not really. I'm just like, do your thing, man. Lynn Manuel Miranda, I fucking just love his work more than anything. And I don't want to meet him like person.

I mean, I have met him, but I don't want to meet him again. I don't want to have coffee. Like, I just, I just want to love your work from afar. Sure. Let the work stand for itself. Okay. Juliet, I think our work stands for ourselves. Thanks so much for having me on.

This is really fun. Thank you so much for doing it for Juliet, and I'm Chris. We'll be back on Monday. Greenwald and I have a very special guest coming after Sunday night's episode of The Watchmen, so make sure you tune in on Monday morning. Today's episode of The Watchman was brought to you by Watchmen. Can't get enough of HBO's Watchmen. Now you can go deeper inside the critically acclaimed new series with the official Watchman podcast,

hosted by Watchman executive producer and writer Damon Lendeloff and Craig Mason, the creator of Chernobyl. The new podcast explores narrative choices, uncovers Easter eggs, and examines the show's connection to the groundbreaking graphic novel. Stream watchmen now and catch new episodes Sundays at 9 p.m. Only on HBO.