The Watch - Claire Saffitz of ‘Gourmet Makes’ and Episodes 5-8 of ‘Dark’ | The Watch

Episode Date: July 12, 2019

The trailer for Season 2 of ‘Succession’ premiered this week and we couldn’t be more hyped (0:30). The final episodes of ‘Dark’ Season 2 leave us with just as many questions as we started with (11:02). Plus, Bon Appétit’s Claire Saffitz joins the show to talk about her YouTube series, ‘Gourmet Makes,’ (29:23) and what she watches to unwind (54:13). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Jason Gallagher and Claire Saffitz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Miller Light. Did you know that Miller Light was the beer that launched the light beer category? Miller Light is the original light beer, and from the start, it has never compromised on taste. That's because it's always brewed to have more taste with only 96 calories and 3.2 grams of carbs. Miller Light hold true. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I'm Netta at the Ringer.com and joining me in the studio. Back off. This is executive level business. It's Jason Gallagher. Yes. What's up, man?

Jason, do you ever go to the watch Facebook page? Yeah, of course I do. People really want us to finish this journey that we started together. So Jason and I are here. We're going to talk a little bit about dark. Yeah. I know that we were going piecemeal, like, episode by episode. I think we did two at a time.

Uh-huh. This will be a slightly longer swath of episode. Larger swath of episodes, but the same sort of level of conversation that you've come to expect from two physicists like Jason and I. Jason and I are also first going to talk about the Succession Season 2 trailer that dropped today. So it's Saturday. And then after Jason departs, I will be joined. This is a pretty big deal by Bon Appetit's Claire Safetz.

Wow. Host of Gourmet Makes. She is in town and she was nice enough to come by. And I cannot wait to talk to her about how she means. how she made that twix because it was fucking amazing. She's pretty incredible. Allison and I have talked a lot

about the Bon Appetit videos and how meaningful they are to us. Do you ever watch those? No. You'd really dig them. Yeah, as a video producer. Oh, wow. You dig them.

Let's talk about succession. Dude, I've never been here for an intro. Have you? Not in the flesh. But this is, you're putting up incredible late season numbers. Sure. Right now.

You're like the Kelly Ubrae Jr. of the watch. Oh, no. I don't know if that's good. So succession is something very, very important to me. Very important to us as friends. Very important to us as ringer employees. It's a show that like even though I think it took a little while to catch on, I was like an early seed and angel investor emotionally in this show.

And my investment has paid off in a huge way. Yeah. And I think that it would be like good content to sound some like notes of cynicism about it for second season, but you're not going to hear that on this fucking podcast. Not here. Not here. You watch the trailer. The new one just dropped. They've had a teaser that was going during the Game of Thrones season. Yeah.

But it kind of sets up what the season's going to be about. It seems like there is going to be the additional, another plotline of King Lear and the dipshits going. Yep. Going. Where it's, you know, Brian Cox's patriarch deciding how to divide up his empire and if he's going to divide up his empire and Shiv and Kendall and everybody... angling for it. But then on the other hand, they're also going to be pursuing what sounds like a, I don't know whether it's the New York Times, like if it's the New York Times family or the Kandai Nast family or some kind of legacy, highly regarded, well regarded media brand that they

want to just become the biggest name of media. So what are your first thoughts after seeing the trailer? My first thoughts are, I mean, the opening line of the trailer is, thank you all for making it. And that just for me is like, hell yeah, they know. know that the gathering of the family is all that really matters. I don't even care what they're fighting about, what they're talking about. Yeah. This is, this show gets what we love about it. It gets itself, you know, in past trailers and stuff like that.

You know, I think us as a staff have kind of been like, we need a little more Tom and Greg. Yeah. And they just gave us just enough. Let's bone this turkey. Yeah. I mean. And Tom throwing water bottles at Greg. Yeah.

So that's like, I'm just like, this one felt the most like, we're going to watch this collection of people rather than like, the past trailer's been really heavy on Jeremy Strong and Brian Cox. Yeah, Logan and Kendall, which I think is essentially the spine of the show in a lot of ways, yeah. But I'm glad that that this one is more in the spirit. I personally am like really, I have like strong affections for Connor. I think Connor is so freaking funny. And so I could use a little more Connor in it. I think Andy's going to be able to really weigh in on Connor this year, now that you spend some time in New Mexico.

They've got pods in New Mexico? Yeah, some sustainability going on. So those are like my just very brief sort of takeaways. I mean, like all the storyline stuff is like shiv power moving, you know, so to speak. Yeah. All very interesting. But honestly, I just like all I care about is that they really, it looks like this is like they're, you know, back to sort of embracing this sort of like this.

this gathering, it's like a collection of characters in a weird way, like the Roy fan is a character of itself. Sure. And then they did something so smart in the first season. And I think it was something they, you know, shows teach you how to watch them. And I think over the course of the season, people realized, okay, each episode is going to be this kind of reunion of itself, whether it's a holiday, whether it's a bachelor party, a wedding, like a gathering at a hospital for a sick family member.

and that will be the impetus behind all these people being together. And I think that that structure really, really, really worked towards the end of the season as things got hairier and hairier. You know, you could make the argument that there are a couple of beats that they did in the first season, that it would be disappointing if they did them again, even if they were right for the character. So, say for Kendall and Kendall's dual paths of both ascending the corporate ladder, but also descending into addiction. That was played wonderfully last season,

and the way that those two things affected each other was amazing. I don't know necessarily dramatically how much it works next season, but it would make sense that Kendall is still struggling with substances. But yeah, I just can't wait, man. I can't wait. It's one of those things where you didn't know you missed it as much as you did until you saw the trailer. Totally.

And it's one of those things. I mean, I... Kind of like how you feel about Lion King. Wow. Just shots. That's fine. Whatever. I don't care.

I can't wait. You can't wait to watch a nature documentary with songs playing over it? Yes. Exactly. Planet Earth was great. What's the problem? I don't understand. It's not like I'm mad that they deviated from live.

Yeah. Like, what are you? Yeah. Anyways. So what I was going to say was that I'm very much like a, with this show, if they're like next week on succession, they go to New Mexico. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, all right.

I hit. There's certain shows that are like that. I'm not sure I can't. Like, I have this weird, like, I'm not sure I totally care about, like, sort of developing characters as much. I know, I'm probably not the guy to talk to about this stuff. But, like, I really, really care about, like, just any time Tom and Greg go out to different. Yeah, if I told you there was, like, a Greg Bachelor Party episode, you'd probably be like,

holy crap. I'm really just excited for August. We've got, yeah, this succession, righteous jumpstone. on HBO, the new Danny McBride show. Cannot wait. I think Danny's going to be coming on the watch pretty soon, so that's pretty exciting. And then Mine Hunter.

Yeah. And I just want TV to fuck me up in August. Like, I'm really, really, really, like, the decks have been cleared for Mine Hunter. All of these shows are all in my household are just Jason-only shows. So my wife and I aren't going to have a lot of conversations. It's going to be a time of quiet reflection in your house. It is. It's really going to mess me up.

Is there one that you're... I mean, they're also different. Is there one you're looking forward to more than... Mind Hunter? Hell yeah. I think I felt like Mind Hunter... It's really interesting. So I've been thinking, because in the wake of Stranger Things...

Yeah. And just the churn that we have right now, I think that there is a little bit of fatigue about anything past its first season. Because it's just sort of like, what are you doing that you didn't do in the first season? And is there a story that you're telling? that needed to be this long. And I think you could make that argument for lies that they're, it's a really cool,

like, it's really cool to have them, those characters back. But I think you could make the argument that that show should have been three episodes this season or maybe like 10 episodes and had just like a lot more soap opera and a lot more parent teacher conferences and a lot more like A, B, C, D plots.

Yeah. Or it should have been just like, basically a quick three episode. or three-hour thing to wrap up the story. Right. But this weird, it being six, doesn't make a ton of sense. And I think that I loved Stranger Things, but I thought that I wished it was longer or I wished it was shorter.

You know, like, there's a little bit of like a fatigue with building up to just to repeat the same dramatic beats from the previous season. Right. I'm not really worried about that with Stranger Things. And with Mind Hunter, I think where they took that show, they're not going to make that thing unless they have something to say. Like, I just don't think Fincher is not like, I'm so glad I finally got a TV show.

Right. You know? And the fact that he's directing it and Andrew Dominic is directing it, I just, I can't wait for it, man. I just really think they're going to go to some pretty perverse places. Yeah.

And it was, it's, it was weird. Season 1 was the kind of show that, like, the imagine, not a ton, like, you know, action-wise, like really happened or anything. And not that a ton will necessarily, but there was always, always like my imagination on that show, like, was huge.

Yeah. And when I think about what actually happened, it was still, like, super compelling. And, like, my chest was hurting when he was in the hospital, like, that whole thing. The Zeppelin montage, yeah. I mean, like, imagining a season two is just, like, my imagination, once again, sort of just, like, expands into this huge thing. It's cool. It actually has what we're talking about where, you know, the characters on Mine Hunter can actually go new places. Yeah.

And it's not like they're stuck in the same thing. And they're also tying the show to a sort of secret American history that hasn't, that they're telling in a very specific way that dictates that the show goes different places. The same way Mad Men did in a lot of ways. It's not unlike the way Madman went from the early swinging 60s into the summer of love and into like that kind of changed American history. I hope Mine Hunter does the same thing. It's a big fall for our guy. I know.

He's in Frozen 2. Big fall for Groff. Let's talk about Dark. Yes. So I would say that my after, so this is going to be a spoiler talk about Dark the last few episodes of the season. It's an eight episode season.

I definitely started episode eight not knowing it was the last episode of the season. The worst. Shout out to me. I would say that in concert with what we're talking about here with like seasons, I found this episode to be a little bit of a slog at times.

Never not interesting, never not smart, but just like a lot of Adam being like, it is an end of this loop. Yeah, the beginning of the end. But like it was repetitive.

I think intentionally so. Yeah. That being said, I thought the sixth episode of this season was the best episode of the series. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Maybe. Okay. That, the sort of confrontation between Jonas and his, father, Michael, was unbelievable where you get to the opportunity to maybe change the past and change the future. And then you talk yourself into the idea that maybe everything has to happen for a reason

and there's a reason while you're there. And then to imagine him being the reason why his father does that. Right. And you get into all these questions about like what would he have done if you hadn't been there because he always thinks that like he's supposed to be there to stop his father from taking his own life. But maybe his presence is what causes it. And that was, That was really an amazing piece of television, episode six. Yeah. I mean, yeah, and then it made me think, I mean, I think somebody tweeted us that had to do with a little bit of episode six, which was basically like, so are we led to believe

that Adam is lying to Jonas about the beginning of it all? There's a suggestion that Adam is lying to Jonas about something. About, well, yeah, I think that's, after the finale, it's kind of like. like definitely proven that he's not showing all the cards. But, you know, his whole case for him going back and, you know, going back and stop, or yeah, essentially stopping his father from killing himself is like, is this sort of like, this is the beginning of it all. This is what starts everything.

And that is very clearly not the case. And I think that it is once again, like a, from my understanding, an example of the bootstrap paradox. Where is the beginning of it all? It's definitely, I don't think it is where his, because there's so many moments where if so-and-so does something different, you know, speaking of the finale, if something else happens there,

then none of the other stuff happens. And it's just like this, ah, my head. I think the best thing I've actually like, when I was trying to explain it to myself. Do you got it? I don't have it, but I think almost, you can take the principles of the bootstrap paradox and apply it to this.

Okay. Imagine an analog clock face, basically. Yeah. Is 12 early or late? You know? Like, is midnight the beginning of a day or the end of a day? Is it late at night or is it early in the morning? It's like this idea of like circular time at any point in the time, it could be earlier, it could be late.

You could be late in a day, but is it, is it, you know, it's that kind of thing. It's definitely late. Midnight. I mean, for dad over here. Yeah, but it's the beginning. of a day. It's like it depends on how you're basically contextualizing what's happening at any point. Yeah. People

do that with the weeks too. Yeah. They go, it's Sunday or Monday, which is the start of the week? What about you? What do you say? I say that the start of the week is Monday, but I understand that it's Sunday. Like I understand we've all culturally agreed upon it being Sunday, but work starts on Monday. Sure. That's how I look at it.

We need time guy, Riley McAtee in here. So the reason why I thought 6 was also incredible was because it had a lot of the qualities that the first season had. It took place on a day where Catarina and Ulrich are celebrating their anniversary.

Yeah, that was wild. And the teenagers of the town were going out to the lake for the day. And so there's a moment where young Jonas, Martha, Magnus, and Bartas are all out of the lake.

And young Jonas in that moment is like, I have to go. I can't remember why he's like, I have to go. But he's like, I have to jet and show my mom, my grandmother, how to use an iPad or something like that. And Martha's like, okay.

And then old Jonas, but in, like, young Jonas, but from the future comes. And he pulls up his raincoat so that you can't see the hangman mark around his neck. A hangman mark given to him by Elizabeth,

the deaf girl who's Francesca's sister. And he sits down and he's like, we're a perfect match, don't ever think otherwise or whatever to Martha. And I realized that it was that the time travel stuff in the flow of an actual, like, lived in town was what was so amazing about that first season. And just a second season of people walking into rooms and being like, Hannah, show me how to use the time machine. No, I've absconded with it.

It was a little bit of slow sledding for a while. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I mean, it was cool. It was also like, it was a good reminder of some of the motivations and some of the, you know, and understanding Ulrich's, you know, affair and all of that and how it sort of originated. I was led to believe that it started at that anniversary party or the birthday party or whatever it was.

Yes. I think it's, I think they obviously have feelings for one another. But yeah, I think that that moment where he's like, my wife is kind of just obsessed with. their kids and Han is out here and I want to have that feeling of feeling like new and excited young. Yeah. It was just a, it was a good reminder of like what Ulrich was. Like it had been, it had been so long of like crazy Ulrich. Yeah. That it was just, it was, it was cool to see the, that family just like normal again. And like, like you said, it was just a good, refreshing reminder of these characters. So we get, endless cycle is episode six. Uh, episode seven is the

white devil, and I have to be completely honest, I don't know that I know what the white devil is yet. I still can't figure it out. Are we supposed to know? Is it Claudia? That's my impression right now. Every time they mention it, she is the person in the, at least in the stratosphere. Yeah, and throughout the season, there's basically, there are just conversations that happen, whether it's about Adam, whether it's about how all this started, whether it's about breaking the cycle,

a new cycle beginning, somebody will do something that seems momentous, and they're like, you were always going to do this. I knew you were going to do this. You've done this before, whatever, Claudia, getting shot, that kind of thing. Adam shooting Noah. That was obviously another one.

You get the feeling like, I think you just get a little bit like punch drunk as to like, wait, is this happening? Is what's happening significant or is it only because this is a part of a cycle that's going on and on and on?

Obviously every, in each one of these, I think in each one of the cycles, right there is an apocalyptic event. Yes. Especially in 2019, where this creepy cop, who's come from out of town, to investigate the disappearance of his brother

or the death of his brother. Which we still don't totally understand why. But seems to have carte blanche to just do anything he wants. Yeah. Drills into black matter, dark matter. Yeah.

Which is essentially like what makes black holes. Right. Blows up possibly the world. And then we get like this post-apocalyptic dystopia where Elizabeth is sort of the leader of the resistance, I guess. the show ends, the season ends with Martha's been shot by Adam, who's old Jonas, or is at least supposed to be.

Yeah, which is that, that's to me the ultimate, like... Question mark. Okay, well, you know, if Adam then is supposed to be sort of, he's telling Jonas that one of the bigger motivating factors is this painful experience, you know, we're, you know, I'm sure we're led to believe that it's the death of Martha. Yes. but it's Adam who kills. I think initially he's like to believe that it's the death of his father.

Right. And then it's the death of Martha. Yeah. But Adam kills Martha. But Adam kills Martha. Because he needs Jonas to become him. And the only way to do that is to sort of rid him of love. Now, this whole time we're hearing about this new cycle is going to begin.

So there's not going to be these loops. It's going to be something new. Yeah. Now, I thought, like, say, for instance, Hana going back in time, abandoning Ulrich in jail. and seemingly starting an affair with Egon Tiedemann, although that isn't completed, but it seems like she's like, I'm going to stay a while.

Yeah. Would make her Claudia's father, mother. It would make her Claudia's mother maybe in that timeline. Yeah. I think so. Right? But at the end of this episode at the end of the season, we are introduced to a new Martha

who arrives on the scene shortly after her own death and says, and he's like, what time are you from? And she's like, that's not the question. The question is what world am I from? It really was a,

when it rains, it pours. When we talk about this? When we talk about this, I'm like, does this show suck? Because it sounds so crazy. Like, I guess for people who like dark

and they like curious talk about it, I hope we're being helpful. We're really just sorting it all out. Yeah. I mean, that was the most, like, I legitimately, like, laughed and was like, this is a bit, because I am barely keeping up. I let a few days, I watched the finale probably about a week ago, and I had to do a full-on deep dive to, like, catch myself up for this podcast. And did you, did you discover anything in your deep dive? Not really discovered, but I had to be reminded of so many revelations that happened in the last three episodes.

It's wild. I mean, maybe the most crazy thing is that Charlotte's dog. is her mother. Yeah, that's fucked up. That's definitely the craziest thing. Charlotte discovered that her daughter Elizabeth is her mother. Wait. Yeah.

Wait, how? Oh, wait, really? Yeah. That was one of the things that I was like, right. Wait, what? Yeah. So, basically Noah talks about how he went back and, I have to go, I have to like go back to the scene to explain it, But basically Noah meets Elizabeth in the bunker where she was taken to hide out.

And then we're somehow led to believe that Elizabeth is actually Charlotte's mother. I didn't get that. I'm not doubting you. I'm not fact-checking you. I'm like, oh, I didn't even notice that. I know that Elizabeth reaches across time in the future to touch Charlotte's hand. And that's seemingly what sets off the dark matter. every, I went to a bunch of blogs.

I mean, like, I should have looked into it. You went to a bunch of blogs. I went to a bunch of blogs and I was like, what are the unanswered questions? And everyone was like, so her daughter's her mother. And I was like, oh, yeah. Were you the person who was like maybe there was only five people in this town? Yes. Okay.

That was my, that was my theory of like everyone is, yeah, there's basically like four characters and they're all like living in different. And every, you know, what I said in the, I think the previous podcast was like someone's, everyone's related. Someone's somebody's aunt, somebody's daughter. Which does bring up some difficult conversations about incest, but we've never shied away from those conversations on this podcast when it comes to Game of Thrones. Right.

Because like Martha and Jonas are actually, Jonas is her uncle, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, shout out Game of Thrones. Yeah. This, I mean, like this vulture piece that I was using to sort of like remind myself of what I've learned. I mean, it's pretty matter of fact.

Her father is a creepy time-traveling priest named Noah, and her mother is Elizabeth, who also happens to be her younger daughter. Younger's daughter. Let that sink in. Yeah, Charlotte puts her young daughter, Elizabeth, in Helga's bunker, along with her father, Peter, so that they can survive the impending nuclear apocalypse. Adult Jonas. Comes in, right?

Yeah. As the apocalypse is drawing near, young Noah from the 1920s walks into the bunker, sent there by adult Noah. Oh, right. Yeah, and this means that at some point in the post-apocalyptic, Noah and Elizabeth have a daughter, Charlotte. And that daughter is taken from them

and sent to live with 10. Old Noah back in 1980s. Yeah. Okay. There did it? I mean, like... I don't know. I mean, like, what do you want my conclusion to be from this?

I mean, the show is like, it is, when you look at the time machine in the briefcase on the show, and it's like this little thing of all these gears and that's what the show is. I don't really know. I mean, like, it definitely lost something from season two that it had in season one, which was the specific energy

of these seemingly normal people discovering an extraordinary set of circumstances. Yes. That was amazing. And as you're watching and you think, oh, is this like Broadchurch and it's just about missing kids? And it's like, oh, is this like lost

where there's like a little bit of a time travel element? Right. And then it now it turns into this huge interlocking, hard to understand. and you have to have a chart next to the computer while you're watching it thing. It's just a different experience. I am curious to see,

because it was announced when they announced season two, that this is part of a trilogy and that season three is forthcoming. And I would imagine, given the way people age, they need to, like, shoot this third season pretty quickly. I wonder if they shot it with the second season. What would you have wanted more or less of? I mean, obviously less Adam just doing his thing.

I think that the Adam stuff is just willfully confusing. Yeah. And it's, it's, they never really like talk about like, I guess is that Magnus and Francesca with, with him who are like his,

his homies? That was another big question for me is like, where's Bartas? Like, why is he? That's what you're really worried about. Where's Bartas? I've got some questions.

My guy. Where is he? Yeah. What, you know, what's his deal? Yeah. I mean,

like what has Hana doing? Like, there is a lot of big questions. I agree with you. I mean, there is like this weird feeling of like because of this show, I feel like I'm in a weird club of people, which is like kind of, of lunatics. Of lunatics.

Yeah. And it is kind of like that part of it's fun. And the more it goes down certain rabbit holes or whatever, like that are frustrating, but it's still like, I don't know, it's fun to be a part of a small club like that. It's really cool. I mean, it's obviously something that they've figured out a way to do this that really demands a lot of scholarship in a way people are happy to do. So I think it's.

really fascinating to see the community around this show, see the people talking about it. At this point, there's way more questions than there are answers, and even the answers, I think, are open to a lot of different interpretations. But I can't wait for the third season. I really enjoyed talking about it with you. I just think most of what our conversation has been about. I mean, look, I took from it, like, anybody who's gone through family loss and all this other stuff, like, you know that you have all these different regrets, and you wonder whether or not you could

have changed anything or gone back and done anything differently. And I think that the show is... I don't know if perceptive is the right word, but it does an interesting job of taking something that's like a very real human emotion and putting it into basically sci-fi fantasy terms. Yeah. This idea that you could go back,

but what if your involvement was inconsequential? And one thing that I think all the characters keep saying, many of the characters in the show are like, I think that I have a much bigger part to play in this, or this somehow is all about me. Yeah. Like Charlotte keeps saying that. And I think she's probably right.

I'm sure that's not like a red herring or anything. Yeah. But that is the great question we ask ourselves is like, what relevance do I have to the greater universe? And these people in a small town who all of a sudden find themselves in apparently a battle between good and evil that takes place across time. It's like pretty amazing to see them.

Yeah, and now we might get Earth 2. Or we might get like straight up outer space. I have no idea where this show is going. Yeah. Well, I mean, she had great bangs. So they, wherever they have. I mean, they have great, maybe they have great hairdressers online.

I, you know, if we're to sort of drink the Kool-Aid of the show, which we've been doing, you know, one of the things I kept thinking about was like, let's say I'm faced with a similar circumstance. Which circumstance? I don't know. Old you comes back? Yeah, a part of me is like, why would I ever stick around, especially if I'm on my third or my second iteration of myself, and I know all this stuff is going on? like why not go to Hawaii and just whatever. Yeah, where's the outbound flights from wind?

And so we've talked about that, but I think a lot of the motivating factors for basically every character is like a version of love. And, you know, everybody's reason for going back and doing certain things is because of love. Yeah, for their kids or for their kids or their, yeah, whatever, except for their high school girlfriends. Except for maybe like Hana, which we still don't know what's her deal.

Well, and she's been broken by that. Yeah, it seems as though. And so... Although she was already cheating on Mickle and before he does. That's what I mean. But anyway, so what I'm saying is that that's why episode six was so important, was to be reminded of the motivation. What the human consequences and the human stakes are in the show.

Absolutely. And that's why people don't bounce. I guess not. Why they're not like, how about I just go to Munich for the week? Exactly. Get away from this nuclear explosion. Okay, Jason, thank you so much for talking about Dark with me. I think we've both gotten smarter and dumber in the process.

100% the latter. I'll be right back with my guest, Claire Saffetz, to talk about gourmet, Makes, and Bon Appetit. Now I am joined by, I was just telling Claire here, Claire Safis is here from Bon Appetit, and this may be the most anticipated guest in Ringer podcast history, or at least this year. Like, we have a couple of really big names coming through, and when I, we send out a little alert that says, like, can we get parking for these people? The response was incredible. Really? Yeah. That's totally insane to me.

But very flattering, so thanks. So you may know Claire from Gourmet Makes on the Bon Appet YouTube channel where she just really like just fights the good fight against white sugar. The first thing I went to ask you is how you were feeling. Because one of the things that I think I first was like, man, I feel like emotionally involved in this whole series is like your battle against getting a cold. And then like seemingly like whether it was with Almond Joy's or I think in like Peep's episode, you were just like, I'm too congested to even taste this. this sugar intake is killing. Yeah. You can probably tell if you're paying attention in Gourmet Makes, I'm sick all the time.

And I determined that I, like, went to my doctor. I was sick for the entire month of March and just recently got sick again. And I was like, what's going on? I went to the doctor. She was like, you're fine. And I have, by process of elimination, determined that it's stress-related. And also, I do think it's because my diet is 60% white sugar. It's just unhealthy.

It wouldn't be. Well, ordinarily it wouldn't be, although I am. developing recipes for a cookbook that's about baking. So it's like, I get it from all angles. It's like gourmet makes. There's no off time. And like with recipe testing in particular, you have to sort of eat like a critical mass of the thing. Like you can't just take a little tiny bite and decide it's good. You have to like sit with it, try it over a period of time and like taste it and really get to know it. And so I mean, it does sound like I'm just justifying like eating sweets all the time. But it's not necessarily that fun. Yeah, it becomes work, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, a

funny thing happened. I was just explaining how I took kind of a month off earlier in the summer to really focus on recipe developing. And I went to my parents' house so I could get away from some distractions. And we were noticing, I was mostly just there with my mom. And we were noticing that there were like a lot of ants in the house. So she called an exterminator who came out. I was like, yeah, he got an odorous ant problem. And my mom was like, like, where do they come from?

Like, how does that happen? And he was like, well, well, they're attracted to sweets. Okay. Oh, my God. I gave my parents an odorous ant. frustration from all my recipe testing. Eight times more molasses that are in any other house on the eastern seaford. Yeah, and the exterminator, I was working on cookie recipes, so we had a million cookies around,

and the exterminator was very confused and was like, are you having a bake sale? Yeah, he's like, also, can I get a cookie? Oh, we send him home with all of them. That's great. We were like, first of all, we have an odorous ants, so we got to get rid of this stuff. And second of all, like, please take it off our hands. So you started at BA as like, it was as a recipe tester? Yes.

Okay. So for people who don't know, because I kind of want to like understand the trajectory. of how you wound up where you are, which is you're in town this weekend at video con or VidCon. VidCon. Yeah, which is like you're doing like essentially live performances of these YouTube videos that everybody loves and they've obviously taken off. And just as context, I mean, I think most people have probably listened. We've mentioned you guys a bunch this year because myself and Alison Herman, who often does

the podcast with me, then also Andy, who also does the podcast with me, when we talk about, like, what's our favorite things to watch? Your videos come up, like alongside Fleabag and alongside, like, of Thrones, and Gourmet Makes, you know, and there's maybe slightly less special effects going on in shows and Game of Thrones. I think it's a lower budget. Yeah, a little bit. But how does, how did this happen?

So you were working at BA, and what's a recipe tester specifically? Right, right. So I started working in a test kitchen at Bonapitie over six years ago, or just about six years ago. And I was a recipe tester, so I was kind of the low man on the totem pole. And so Bonapiti has this test, an actual test kitchen. in the office. And it's sort of how food magazines traditionally function, was they test their recipes on site with food editors.

This was their job to develop recipes. And there is that hierarchy that you get at magazines where you have like a senior food editor and then an associate food editor and assistant food editor. And I started at the very bottom, which was a recipe tester. So all the recipes get developed and tested and tasted. And then basically my job was to be like the last line of defense against any errors or inconsistencies in the recipe.

Like almost a food copy editor or something. Yes, yes. But like making the actual recipe. So a food editor would say, this recipe's finished, and they hand it up to me, and I would make it through just as I would if I were cooking at home and flag things and make corrections about, oh, you know, it took this long for it to bake or, you know, this was unclear or something like that. And that was a great entry into food editorial because you really learn how to write recipes that way and to develop recipes. You see sort of what is the decision-making process about. One ingredients to call for, and you know, you think a lot about like, how many pots and pans am I going to ask someone to get dirty to make this recipe? And you sort of really learn about those efficiencies.

So that was a great, I love that. That was like my dream job when I got it. I was so happy. And then I never left. That was it. And they just wondered, where they started doing video and was it like Claire's around or is it something that you had been like kind of interested in? Were you a big food TV person and we're like, this is where I'd like to go? Yeah, it was like Claire's here and she's already on staff so we don't have to pay her.

more. I never had thought of video as a goal. And I'm not like, I do not in any way consider myself a performer. I, it sort of like makes me cringe. I never, I don't really like the idea of being looked at or seen a whole lot. So now it's very, it's very strange for me then to be like at something like VidCon. And the exposure has been tremendous and that's really wonderful. But I've just never thought of myself as someone in front of a camera. So, so, But the video started because the test kitchen just felt like a really natural place to shoot video. And at some point we moved into a different office in downtown Manhattan. Yeah.

And they built a beautiful new test kitchen that also could function as a studio. So is that optimized for being able to shoot stuff in there? It is. We basically outgrew it almost immediately because of adding that video component and everyone was already in the test kitchen trying to develop their recipes. and it's, you know, they put that test kitchen through a lot. Okay. But there was probably, we did, you know, we had some early videos that, that sort of happened before the brand found its voice on video.

The cake ones were before Gourmet Makes, I think, were they? The baking school, the layer cakes. That was like during, that was more recent. Okay. So Gourmet Makes had already started. But I have some earlier videos that, like, really make me cringe. There's one where I'm making. soup dumplings, which is a great recipe and really fun to make, but they, like, put me in

hair and makeup, and like, I just look crazy. The makeup looks really weird. So Adam Rappaport, editor-in-chief, he was, it really, I think, came a lot from him. He basically said the test kitchen is a really fun place. There's so much interesting stuff going on down there. And it was true because we would, you know, all the test kitchen editors, all the food editors, I should say, as different from the normal editorial staff. So the people that worked in the test kitchen cooking.

Carla, Brad. Right, right. Chris Morocco, Andy. We not only were side projects tolerated, but they were kind of encouraged. Oh, cool. Yeah, it was a very creative place where I could do my like weird sourdough stuff and Brad could do this fermentation. And I think Adam one day just said it's really stupid that we're not capturing this stuff and making content out of it. Yeah.

So I think it also sort of came out of the need to like be lean and work efficiently with content. So, you know, the video kind of took shape and over time, and then gourmet makes happened. And it was just initially an idea for a pilot, which was the idea to reverse engineer at Twinkie. Right. And at first they were going to have, I think, an actual pastry chef do it, like someone in the New York area. And then they said, well, let's just have Claire try it. She's like already in the test kitchen. And that's where it started.

Did that first one go, like blow up immediately like that? Or was it like more of a slow build for those? because then the review numbers on those are probably pretty daunting. Yeah, I think Twinkie performed very well, but it was very well at the time for a Bonapitie video, which does not have the same meaning now. But I think they thought it performed well enough that they want to keep trying it.

Sure. And then it really snowballed into this sort of huge thing. Do you find that, I mean, it's interesting because you mentioned there's like a degree of anxiety around like both being on camera, but I think also like Gourmet makes itself is like a challenge. right? Like it's sort of a challenge-based video in the first place. Is it comfortable for you to be like exasperated? Like, or is it something where you're like, this is like, I would rather not be like tempering chocolate again kind of stuff? Yeah, I've had my own personal evolution with gourmet makes. And it did occur to me at some point that, oh, like baked into the concept of this show is me going crazy.

Yes. Which I don't, I didn't necessarily love. But now I've feel like I've kind of come out the other side. And now I have a better understanding of the process. And yes, I get very frustrated and I want to give up. But I also know that if I just step away and, like, go home, come back the next day, I'm ready to attempt it again. So the feelings of frustration, I mean, the feelings of frustration and exasperation, those are, like, feelings I'm more comfortable expressing on camera. I think the transparency also is part of the appeal, right? Like, you just feel like you're getting the real person. Yeah, like, I want to stop all the time.

And I always try to call cut, and the director is like, you can't call cut. Yeah. But I have just trust in the process now that, like, it will, we are going to finish this at some point. And it's kind of a secret, which I talk about all the time, which is sometimes they don't really actually do it. It's just like. We just end. We're just done. I don't want to do it again.

And they have to shoot something different tomorrow. And Kevin, who's behind the camera, has another shoot. And, you know, and I'm not scheduled to come in that day to shoot video. So it's like, we're just going to wrap it up. Yeah. So I did have a period where I sort of hated it. And now I realize, I think... Was that the three-month cold period?

No, it was before that. It was probably like episodes three through six or something. And I do think it also was a time when I was full-time in the test kitchen and was kind of doing video on top of all the other work that I was doing for the magazine and for digital. So now I don't want to say that I approach it with a Zen attitude because I'm not Zen at all. But I just, it's like I know I'm just going to show up and do it. So I don't have quite the sense of anxiety around it that I used to. It also seems like it is a, it seems fun to have those people around while you're doing it.

I'm sure you get this all the time, but you know, you just wind up feeling like, by extension, those are your friends by watching you guys all interact. Yeah, we've been working together since I started. Yeah. For most of the people, Brad was there on my first day. Chris Morocco wasn't there, but he had previously been an employee. and then came back. And so I felt like I had known him from just people talking about him all the time. Carla was like part of,

was sort of part of the team that like interviewed me before I got hired. So I have such long relationships with everyone. And it's wonderful to work with people who have sort of a taste that you implicitly trust and who are really smart and have great ideas. So it helps a lot that I rely on the feedback and advice from everyone in the kitchen. Right. And like also the comic relief or like lightning up the mood kind of thing. It seems like it's nice if you were just in there alone.

Oh, yeah. It would be, I would be miserable if I had to shoot that alone. Yeah. Absolutely. So I was curious about what kind of like, basically the intensity of the labor that goes into doing it. Because you were mentioning like some just end. They don't really like hard cap. They're like, hey, see, I did it.

So what's like the average one take? Like, is it a week shoot? Is it a couple of days? And then what's the outlier, like, worst one ever? Right. On average it takes three to four days. Okay. I think, and sometimes it's sort of like a half day.

It's like we wrap up. We really wrap up on day three, but everyone went home. And I'm not allowed to finish the show unless everyone tastes it. So then we have to carry it over. I particularly like the episodes where you're like, it's sunset in New York, and here I am by myself. Right. It happens a lot. And I also was like, please don't schedule any shoots on a summer Friday because no one will be here.

Yeah. So, but three to four days is average. Oreo took two days. And I think that I think Reese's Peanut Butter Cup also took two days. In those ones, I sense that the director was trying to, like, throw a wrench into it and make it harder to, like, because they were like, we need a certain number of minutes for the ads, you know? Like, go slower.

And then that major outlier is, for some reason, Kit Kat took me, like, five days. But I think that's just because I sat there and spun my wheels so much. I think a lot of the process of gourmet makes is battling the idea of, like, sunken costs. And really knowing when to say that this isn't working, and I have to back up. But if I've spent the entire day doing it, like, when do I want to get that? Right, exactly. That's a really tough pill to swallow sometimes. Yeah.

So I think, like, for Kit Kat, I just didn't follow that gut feeling that, like, this just isn't working. And then I just, for some reason, took five days. So when you have people in gourmet makes who are giving you loose ground rules, like it has to do this. You have to have it be like this. Is that, not staged, but is that sort of part of the conceit that you're like, okay, I'm going to do this thing? And then some people are like, well, if you're going to do that thing, you have to have the ridges on top of the Snickers or something like that. Yes, that's part of the kind of format at the show is asking sort of like crowdsourcing from the test kitchen and other editors who pop down into the kitchen. For us to make this thing, what does it have to have?

But sometimes I just ignore. Yeah. I ignore or I attempt it and then it doesn't happen and I just pretend like it was never important. from the beginning. Or just forget that first part. Right, right. Like, oh, you know, it doesn't have, like, so I just, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I just shot, like, peanut, I don't care.

I just shot peanut M&Ms. Okay. And I could not get, like, the shiny, smooth coating. And so it was just sort of like, well, I never wanted that from the beginning. We always wanted, like, a kind of gunmetal taste to the candy. Right, right. It always was going to look like a little pebble, you know. So there's a little bit of, like, revision at the end.

So I think my favorite thing about, The show. I mean, I, A, don't really cook that much. B, probably, I mean, I wouldn't even know how to start doing it. Like half of it. It's essentially like watching the NBA. I'm like, you're just so much better at this. Like, it would be, it's not even basketball if I tried to do it. And then also, I think probably at the end of the day, I'm probably like, I think I'd probably just get a twizzler. You know what I mean? Like, I'd probably just get the regular twizzlers. But obviously, I think you're just like an incredible personality. And then there's something about watching process that's really fascinating. But you, you can't. keyed in, especially in the, like, Almond Joy, I think Pringles, there's been a bunch where obviously there's like a nostalgia thing at work for you. Yes. And that's like the one of, like, that's the thing that I think you capture so well is like you outline like what relationship you had to this snack as a kid, whether you were allowed to have it or it was only special occasions or you would do this with your sister or not.

And can you tell me a little bit about nostalgia as a function in gourmet makes? Yeah, a lot of the people that work on the show are like kids. the 90s or growing up or adolescence in the 90s, me included. So a lot of them touch that nostalgia factor. Because it really is an interesting, Gourmet makes is an interesting window into the American snack food industry and the kinds of engineering that go into all these products and also marketing because so many people say like, oh, I would pack gushers in my lunchbox or we would have, this one maybe hasn't come out yet, but like we did Pop-Tarts.

Oh, cool. And I never, growing up, I fortunately had parents who cooked and didn't have a lot of sort of snack food type things in the house. So sometimes I have a relationship with the food or sometimes I don't. Often it's just a thing that I watched my friends eat at lunchtime and was like jealous that they had it and I didn't. Yeah. So there is like a pretty dramatic nostalgia factor and a lot of what I learn about the foods as an adult is that they were not at all delicious at all. And it also was like kind of makes me think about the way memory works. Yeah, of course.

Because you remember things tasting amazing. And then as an adult, or at least I as an adult, go back and taste them. And it's like the memory is so different than the reality. Just because our palettes change and taste change and things, especially in the 90s when sugar was fine and fat was bad. Like things are just so sweet. So I think the goal of Gourmet Makes is always for the recreation to be the way you thought the food, like the way you remembered the food. tasted and not the reality of how it tasted. So, like, texturally maybe, like, have something that's pretty close to it, but not, like,

because I think I noticed, like, a lot of the times you guys are like, let's dial down the sweetness. This is crazy. Always. Yeah. Yeah. Are you a nostalgic person when it comes to, like, pop culture stuff? Like, I get, this is, like, my segue to stranger things, sort of, but I was wondering

whether or not that's, like, a big thing for you or whether it's more, like, it's mostly through Gore-Makes that you sort of interact with that. Oh, it speaks to me in pop culture. Yeah. All over. I mean, Stranger Things, I'm a little young for that for Stranger Things, but I remember, I have older sisters, so I feel like that helps you, that helps me sort of. And you grew up in the Midwest, right? Yes, yes.

I think having older siblings makes you a little more, it like ages me a little bit. Sure. Like, it ages me down. Because their experiences are like a little bit handed down to you too. Right, right. And like what they thought was cool when they were a teenager, I watched maybe when I was like a little too young or something. So I love that sort of nostalgic feeling in Stranger Things. I think the Midwest thing for sure.

Yeah. Do you feel like, like, does gourmet makes, does it have to be related to, like, snack food? Is there, like, other stuff that you've got, like, kind of, like, thought about experimenting with outside of the prepackaged, like, here's this thing that you used to get. And, like, what if we made an extra special version of it? Right. The, I don't know. I struggle a lot with the word gourmet. Yeah.

What does that even mean? Right. So I think, I do think the show is contingent on the subject being considered not. Gourmet somehow, which was something I said about Ferreira Roche was like, this is a thing that people think actually is kind of fancy and like maybe serve at the holidays. So I don't know if that was the best subject. But it does feel like it has to come from, it has to sort of be this like industrial produced like mass marketed item. It's so funny though now because like with with restaurants it's like you will get gourmet chicken nuggets at places. You know like a lot of the stuff is kind of like being reimagined. Like I know it like a lot's like Dave Chang's restaurants do that where you're just like, oh yeah. Like this is. is like I'm basically having a dairy queen meal, but it's done at like this really high level of sophistication and like flavor. Right.

And one thing I like about gourmet makes is I hope that it shows that I think a misconception of people like us who work in the test kitchen or in food media is that we're kind of snobs about food. And it's not true at all. We have very strong opinions, but it doesn't mean that we turn our nose up at snack foods or like some things I don't like. like, but some things are great. Like a Dorito is like a perfect snack food, and it's great, and I want to eat them.

So it's not about... I always get the impression you're more like, crap, I have to make this now than you are like, I don't actually like the flavor. Right, some of them I love. Although peeps, it did seem like you were like, this is the trial of player. It's not a good food. It's not. Like, some of them are not good.

And so, and I know I'm very honest about that, but some of them are great. Has there ever been something that you've been interested to try, but either is like outside of your expertise or even like outside of the realm of science, like try to like make new Coke or something like that? Oh yeah. That's come up. And I think there have been ones, like I did think that, um, gushers, which was episode two or three maybe was going to be, I had all these ideas in my head about how I could do it. And then I realized like this is, once they stopped working, I was like, I have no more ideas. And now I have to make them. and I'm really not looking forward to it.

Again, I think this is like a, one, like, spoiling. These are all things we've shot that haven't aired, so I hope I'm allowed to talk about them. But we did pop rocks. And it's like pop rocks has so far been the one thing on gourmet makes that truly has to be made in. Like a factory. Like a factory or like a laboratory because it's formed under pressure. It's like trapped CO2 in this kind of like crystalline sugar structure that when you put it on your mouth. and that your saliva like melts or dissolves the sugar,

it creates this like release of gas that pops. And it's like it is literally impossible to make this in the test kitchen. And we talked about things like using a pressure cooker. And I was like, I think we just talked about making a bomb in a pressure cooker in the world trade center. And like this is not good. Oh my God. We can't do this. So that was, I mean, that was like pure misery for me because I just knew there was no.

Yeah. Yeah. Usually things fall into one of two categories. There's the snack foods that, that like, it is a thing that really exists. It's just a mass market version. Sure. So something like a Twix is a good example because it's chocolate and caramel and a cookie. And those are all real things.

Yeah. And then there's things like pop rocks where it's like this is not, this barely exists in the universe. Yeah. Like there's no real natural ingredients in this really. Right, right, right. Do you have any interest or ambition in doing stuff that happens outside of the test kitchen? Because the test kitchen is such a huge character. all the videos. And I know that Brad goes on the road a little bit, but I was curious whether or not

there's like a version of stuff that you want to do that happens out in the world. Yeah, my favorite kinds of opportunities for video are the ones where I get to learn from someone that's more skilled than I am and are masters of their craft and true experts. So that's always fun. There's some bakers that I'd love to sort of like pick their brain and watch work and learn from them. So we did that. We did a show called Making Perfect About Pizza. Oh, yeah. And that was really fun because we had Anthony Falco. who's like a pizza guru come in and sort of teach me about the dough making process. And I love that.

For that show, I got to actually leave the kitchen and we went to a couple of pizza places. He said like you got furlough of a place. Yeah. I got to leave the kitchen and go to Lower East Side. So my joke is that, like, I don't get to go above Chambers Street, which is a little New York geography, but it's like two blocks from the World Trade Center. So as long as it's a 10-minute walk from the test kitchen, I'm allowed to shoot there, I guess. But yeah, I mean, I love work.

working in the test kitchen because I love, mostly it's the people. Yeah. I love how collaborative it is. You know where everything is. I know where everything is, yeah. For the most part. Right. But yeah, it's always nice to get out and especially learn from another expert.

Is it daunting to have to consider? Because, you know, obviously, like, you're talking about, like, you got the recipe tester job, and that was, like, the culmination of everything you'd sort of work towards. And you're writing cookbooks, and I think, obviously, you're probably a big connoisseur of cookbooks if you're doing that. But it was like, is it weird? to have to consider like next steps in video as part of like a career plan or yeah i mean i'm fortunate that i found a place that really works for me sure so i'm not i'm not i'm here at vidcon with all these creators and they are individuals who like run their own channels and edit their

videos and do and involve in every part and run themselves like a business and i don't really want to do that so it's just it's like that's a lot of work yeah And it uses a lot of skills that I don't have. So I'm very happy to be at a place like Bonapetee where it's a wonderful platform and I have the whole engine of the brand making me look good. And that's great. So I'm fortunate that I don't really spend that much time, I guess, thinking about like what's the next step and the evolution of me in video because I have other people thinking about that. It's good. Which for me is great because I love that I get to focus on like this book project, for example, that is a very long problem.

Yeah, I mean, it's not going to happen for a very long time. So, this is a spoiler of your own cook then? Yeah, yeah. I think that the publisher is sort of like, unless it's within six months of the publication date, you don't have to talk about it, and it's like more than a year away. So, but it's a book all about baking. Yeah. And it's a nice counterpoint to gourmet makes because the gourmet makes is not about

teaching anybody anything that they're going to do at home. Yeah, that's the kind of, like, the fascinating thing about it is it's like it starts out And you're like, oh, okay, so temper chocolate, don't know what that is. And then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, fuck this. I'm not supposed to know how to do this. Right, right. Oh, yeah. I don't recommend that anyone try to recreate any thing from Gourmet Makes.

Although it has, I have, like, people sent me DMs. Like, I made this or something. My apartment sounds fine. Right, right. I had to buy a dehydrator on Amazon. So it's nice to work on a book because it's just a very different mode. And it's really about sort of like teaching and service for the reader. So it's great to have those two sort of parallel and complementary projects.

Do you watch stuff on YouTube? Like as a, I don't know if you say no, I guess you feel, is that weird to ask? I mean, the answer is no. Yeah. Like, I really don't. I mean, it makes me feel very old because I don't consume a lot of content on YouTube. Okay. And I don't really watch, I mean, I try to watch my own video sometimes.

And mostly I watch them because. the editing is so great, and I love to see the work of the editors and what they do with the tons and tons of footage that we give them. They're really charmingly edited. Yeah. The editing is so wonderful and complimentary, thankfully, because they cut out so much of my complaining. I complain so much sharing gourmet makes. Do you have someone there who's like your standing therapist during the show, or is it – are you complaining into the void and then you bring yourself back? Yeah, I mostly complained to the director who's this guy, Dan, who is great and is wonderful and has, like, learned how to deal with me and, like, handle.

Mostly what he has to do is wrangle me because I get really like talking to everyone in the kitchen. And he told me when we first started working together that it feels like being with his mom at a party. It's like, mom, can't we go? But I'm just like, I just have to talk to one more person. Yeah, I'm like, I'm just talking to Chris about something else. So, yes, it does. It feels like, I guess Chris is kind of like my therapist. That's nice.

He like, pats me on the back. I was like, it's going to be okay. But then we'll also be like, you have to make sure you have like three layers of wafer here. It doesn't, like, quite. Oh, right. Then he'll taste it at the end and like, be like, here's everything you did wrong, which I already know because I'm like very aware of all the shortcomings. And like to tell people about them is before they even eat them. I give them the spoilers of the finish quarry.

That's good. Because the reason I was asking is because I think that I obviously is a person who works on the internet. I have to, I use it all the time. I use YouTube all the time. But it was largely more for like. oh, I really either need to or want to watch this like Pulp Fiction scene and don't feel like getting the DVD out. It was like more like research or like for fun, I'm just going to watch this trailer. And then in the last, I would say two years or so, the two things that have really happened are one, I've tried to get better at golf.

So I watch a lot of golf instruction, which is like an entirely other podcast. And then just randomly will like let the algorithm do stuff for me, which obviously as we know from our political climate can be a dangerous escapade. but I've got some guardrails, obviously, emotionally, that I stay away from the bad stuff. But, like, you know, you'll just sort of be clicking around. And I can't even remember how I found Gourmet Makes. I think it might have been, like, a link to the BuzzFeed story that happened about the kitchen in general.

But it's weird how much more now, and people who I work with here are like, oh, yeah, and I really like watching Claire. I really like watching hot ones, or I really like watching, it's like any discipline, anything that's like targeted to like your personal tastes, there's probably something there that's like very specifically about that.

I've, I mean, I fall down the occasional YouTube rabbit hole. And a lot of times I think it's because I'm like looking up a song. I use it sort of like for like listening to music sometimes. And then it's like, oh, here's this really great like concert video of Bruce Springsteen in like 1989.

Two hours later. Yeah, right. Right, right. It's like that happens sometimes, but I don't really consume like series, I guess, on YouTube. And I think that I'm just such like a traditional television watcher. And it matters to me a lot. So I moved like I moved about a year ago and I didn't have cable. I didn't have basic cable and I just watched, did like a lot of streaming. And I watched television so deliberately because of that.

I would pick series and go through them. And any highlights from that? I watched like all of the Sopranos, which I had never seen straight through. And it's such a fun feeling. It's like reading a good book. It's so nice to like get, be excited to go home at night. Oh, yeah. I can watch three episodes before I have to go to bed.

Yeah. So I went through a lot of HBO because I got like an HBO go log in. Okay. And now I have cable and so much of my television watching is it's like a palliative. Yeah. I just, I want to like turn off my, especially after like a gourmet makes shoot day. Yeah. I just want to go and switch off my brain.

So what's the palliative? Is it food TV or is it? Oh, no. like weather channel or something. It's usually Bravo. Okay. Like very well versed in the whole Real Housewives. I'm pretty,

Kyah, our producer, can attest. I got into Vanderpump. Oh my God. On a flight, I watched like eight episodes and now I like I watch it pretty. Oh, I guess if you're in L.A., are you going to go to Sir? I really thought to myself like, should I go to one of... You're not that far from Tom Tom and Sir. I was like, I named all them.

I was like, should I go to Tom Tom, Sir, Villa. What is it? Villa. Villablanca. Villa, Vlanka. Thank you, Kyya. Or Pomp.

This is the convergence of Kaya's interests of having you here to talk about Svanderpump. Yes. It's, I mean, I would, I think I would be considered like a Bravo super fan. Because I really do, like, watch so many of the shows. And I just, we were in Vegas this weekend for the NBA Summer League, and we were at Cesar's, and there's the Vanderpump cocktail lounge is there. I know that because when Bonapete had their. Vegas and Corked Festival, which was in, maybe it was April or May.

Andy, my colleague from the test kitchen, got to go and met Lisa Vanderpom. Oh, no. Wow. And I was texting him being like, tell me everything. And he was like, it was incredible. I think, so, Kai, feel free to get on the mic here because you would know better than me. But if you go to Tom Tom, like, they're working there, right? Tom, Tom, I don't, the way I think about them right now.

And, like, we had the executive producer on another one of the podcasts I produced. and I think of them as like Disney characters where like if you go to Disneyland and you go to like Goofy greets you there. Yeah. Yeah. Or like you go to a themed restaurant. Like the characters are there and they greet you and they interact with you as they're eating.

But they're not serving your food. Oh, see, I thought Juliet said that sir, you can catch a shift with Katie there. I think that's how it used to be when like the show was like early on before like it got so big. Yeah, I think they're all, like, really rich now. Yeah, I mean, they do, like, a lot of, like, club openings and appearances and stuff. Right, yeah. But I guess I just hold, because, like, for some reason, like, still think of it as a reality show where, oh, yeah, so it's like, it's like, they're shipped. They're just at work.

Yeah, right? Yeah. I was, Jacks is probably on his honeymoon now, right? Yeah. I remember, I did see that he got married last weekend in Kentucky. Yeah. Well, I hope if you do go, you enjoy yourself down at Sir. I think it would be quite a pilgrimage.

Walking distance from here or no? No. But you want to, you should get yourself like the nicest Uber and drop you off like so that it's almost like a celebrity is getting out to go, you know? Uh-huh. But it's probably like 15, 20 minutes from our office? Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah.

It's not too bad. That's very exciting. I don't have a great like lay of the land for L.A. It's just like west of here. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Great.

I'm planning the seat. You should do it, I think. All right. Claire, thank you so much for joining the watch. everybody should check out Gourmet makes and is it starting up again soon like is in install season one oh that's the joke it's like it'll be like

it's season one episode 140 oh great so yeah we'll see I get very like conscious about seasons because we always have to talk about them I'm at the show I one time asked I was like so we're still in season one and they were like just don't worry about it you should get super like season two we really need to like have

something dark happen like Empire Strikes Back style I'll put in a word okay cool Claire thank you so much for coming by thanks for having me