The Watch - Creator Brad Ingelsby on the ‘Task’ Finale

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the season finale of ‘Task,’ discussing why the ending was so satisfying, the constantly evolving nature of the show, and whether they want more of the HBO crime drama (1:00). Later, they’re joined by series creator Brad Ingelsby to discuss what inspired him to make the show, its significant religious through line, Mark Ruffalo’s finale monologue, the chances of a second season, and much more (27:42). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Brad Ingelsby Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producers: Jon Jones Additional Video Supervision: Michael Delgado Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, Unselfish with his love. It's Andy Greenwald. That's the nicest thing you ever said about me. Andy, we are recording this for Sunday night release

after the task finale. We have a wonderful, nice, long, healthy, thoughtful interview with Brad Engels B to share with you guys. So we're going to talk a little bit about the task finale and the series finale. we assume maybe series finale, maybe just season finale, who knows. And then we'll get into our interview with Brad

where we got into a bunch of stuff from this last episode as well as how the whole thing made us feel, which was quite a bit. It's great to see you. I really can't wait to talk to you about this episode and sort of the end of this season. Let me just start here.

We'll start broadly. Do you find it satisfying? I found it insanely satisfying. I mean, I feel like it's worth noting, right? That like eight-hour time delay between us, I'm watching this show, these last few episodes, perhaps in kind of an emotional trans-oceanic haze. I'm willing to accept that may be playing into it.

But I found this show to be magisterial. I found it to be deeply, deeply affecting, deeply moving. I thought the ending was more or less no perfect in its, in the way that it balanced fate, justice, outcomes that were predictable, you know, and in ways that felt acceptable. And also some really, I think,

surprising moments of sacrifice and grace, especially in the very end moments of the finale. So I'm really, really affected by the show and I'm excited to talk to you about it. I wish I could chart, like, the finale script and the finale script in the finale episode, like a piece of music, because I think the things I felt like in the last 30 minutes, I have no doubt are somewhat shaped by like my personal experiences and maybe where

my head is at right now. And I think that that might be like an individual thing. I'm sure people could have critiques of certain aspects of this show and certain aspects of the finale. But I think that there was some kind of like beautiful musicality. to the way this season ended and the way the Cota kind of took 35 minutes or however long it was after the last shootout occurs

and you kind of get this look into what these people's lives are like after all the guns are done shooting and all the cuffs have been put on wrists and all that and I just found it profoundly satisfying but also

like deeply moving you know the moment where Mave and Harper are looking at Billy and Robbie's house for the last time and they're home for the last time and are like, you know, I'm worried I'm going to forget all about this and she's just like you won't like, I thought that too, but you won't forget it. And it's just, Inglesby has like a real affection for the people he writes about. And I think you could say in some ways that that's like, does he cut Grosso too much slack? Does he, you know, Does he create sort of safety zones for these characters where maybe they don't have to deal with certain consequences or certain things don't happen? I don't know. I mean, at the end of the day, I get to the end of this season, and I just wind up feeling real gratitude for the show itself. There's a couple of things I wanted to bounce off of you, but what did you want to... I just want to respond to something specifically you said, which was you were talking about a moment that stuck with you of Maeve and Harper looking back on the house.

The moment that stuck out to me is something that you just sort of alluded to, which is the end of the previous episode, there's a phenomenal, I guess, in a weird way, although we didn't expect it coming between these two characters. The closest task actually came to the heat diner scene between Tom and Grasso, where he's like, I'm coming for you, and he's like, well, come at me then. Big Dog's Got to Eat kind of scene. We were on this podcast a week ago saying, oh, okay, so the show put one over on us two different ways. it's not actually a two-hander, and that's something we talked to Brad about, and you guys will hear it soon enough. But also, maybe Grasso is the big bad

at the end of the tunnel. This episode, Grasso goes to visit his sister. Yeah. And we see him bantering with his nephews. And we understand, you know, in beautifully drawn shorthand, why he is the way he is.

Yeah. Why he does what he does. And I find that to be very affecting. I think that Brad writes from a position not of judgment, which is a theme in the series, but one of grace and giving people space to be fully alive. And again, this is something that we talk about when we have Brad on the line. But I find his incredible thirst, similar to Tom's thirst for vodka in the first few episodes, his thirst for life, for more life, for more stories, for more context, for more richness, for more reasons to be really, really compelling and really moving. honestly, in a way that a lot of television shows just aren't these days. And I'm not trying to do a drive-by on other TV shows. You can watch procedurals that will give you definitive answers. And you can

watch prestige television shows that are awash in very heavy questions. But what this show does is kind of quest and hope in a way that feels very relatable, if not necessary, at this particular moment in time. I thought, you know, we talk a little bit, we talk quite a bit with Brad in the upcoming interview about God, which is sort of funny. Kind of a first for us. Did you not do that with the guy from drug church last year? I haven't gotten back to it. But it's one of those things where I think it's a more useful reading of this TV show to think about it in almost these, whether you would want to say biblical or mythological terms to imagine this is about, you know, these people who are like kind of fallen and trying to redeem themselves.

and if you want to look at the evil on this show or the heavies or the antagonists, they're not called the dark hearts for a reason. You know what I mean? Like there is a demon to an angel. You know, there is a counterbalance. And I think it's a very useful way to view the show about, I think you would go into it and you'd be like,

well, it's going to be a gritty South Eastern PA crime epic about the drug trade and how it moves. from Reading through the cities and, you know, the bike gangs vying for control of different, and it's like, no, it's not about that. You know what I mean? It's about parents and children, and it's about whether or not you can break cycles of of misery and pain and being trapped in your own circumstances. And it's a version of religion that I find from my other kind of church across the street,

maybe in Gladwin, like very, very compelling. there is no room in the mythology of task for an actual God or an actual devil, because look at the shit we have to deal with here. It's not really worth wondering about eternal damnation and hellfire when you can have the kind of experiences that Robbie and Tom have had in the last 18 months, right? And I think it's worth noting that for as much as Brad shows this and Marevistown are set in Delco. Yes, that is very, very, very much true. Maybe what's worth saying instead is, these shows don't go anywhere but Delco in Pennsylvania. There is nowhere else in the same way that I think,

you know, Grasso expresses that view that maybe there's no place other than this. We get views of quote-unquote heaven, and it's a bunch of trees in Canada. We get views of hell in terms of other people's behavior, but what the show is ultimately about is the choices we make right here. Right here happens to be, you know,

in places like Radner in other places where we spent Bernie. birthday parties in our youth. So obviously we're a little bit predisposed to be, to be viving with it. But I think that it's a very compelling vision of just how we fucking got to do our best. Yeah. And the fact that it was so artfully evolved into, well, it's not even right. I was going to say evolved into a show about one man's journey towards forgiveness. It was that from the beginning. Brad talks to us about that. But like the way that we came to accept Tom's journey as the primary focus of the show I thought was just so subtly done and so artfully done.

Well, it's the twist of the show, isn't it? It's the twist of the show, and yet it still had one last card to play with the Sam business. Yeah. Which I think I didn't see coming. And I think that's interesting because you and I really, really vibe with the way that Brad Engelsby writes television. I think we probably both and many other viewers probably were like, oh, I see maybe there's a Grosso Redemption arc of sorts brewing here.

I think last week I was patting myself on the back for saying, oh, Sam's going to get adopted by Tom. I wish I had seen it sooner. I also felt confident, even though it was quite stressful, that Harper was not going to catch astray. Like that in this world, there are certain rules. Like, awful things happen. Sure. I did not think that was going to happen. The one thing that I did not think was going to happen, and I want to know your perspective on this, whether it is because of my preimagined rules of television or my preimagined rules of television or my preimagined rules. rules of the television of Brad Inglesby, which I clearly got wrong, I did not see that we were heading towards the great gift that Tom is giving to Sam is letting him go. I did not expect that. I didn't expect that. I didn't expect this being a show. I thought this was a show about two guys on opposite sides of the law. You know what I mean? And then I thought it was kind of like us. And then I thought it was a show about criminal organizations and law enforcement organizations being undone by moles and people working at cross purposes to them. And it then became about a guy who learns to forgive his adopted son

by letting his other adopted son go have a life free from everything that kind of has any connection to his damaged parents and the incredibly traumatic way that he came into his adolescence. It breaks a cycle. Yeah, right? And it's the same thing with Mave and Harper going off to, I guess, Canada or wherever they were six hours north or whatever. Well, they go somewhere else, but they don't go somewhere else in this lifetime. And by this lifetime, I mean our lifetime of watching the show.

Like, it's off-screen, it's beyond history, it's over. Yeah, it's such an interesting, it's such an interesting thing, this idea that he would let him go in a way. And I think there's something profound about the fact that Tom's ultimate journey is not just towards, you know, sobriety or making amends or whatever. It is actually accepting life with the son that he has. You know, I think that that's kind of a powerful thing because even the most, I don't know, empathetic viewers probably like, what a beautiful thing to have a second chance. Yeah.

But Sam was Tom's Canada, right? Absolutely. He has to stay in, fortunately, like many of us, he has to stay in the United States. Let's talk really quickly about the crime stuff. Let's do it. Because I personally liked it. It all falls into place in a way that I think some people will find a little convenient where multiple times in the last couple of episodes, everybody is converging on the same place at the exact same time. It's true.

A lot of the, let's just say, like, narrative rushing attack, where it's like, let's hand the ball off so that we can get three yards, is progressed by, we've triangulated his cell phone, or a source told me that Shelley is doing this. And it's like, who's the source? And like, what are you talking about? Did you find it too convenient or did you find it to be exactly what was supposed to happen? because it's got to happen to have

the desired effect for the characters. Well, I think the best case scenario in crime fiction is subject you and I are very passionate about is when you feel that inevitability of page turning, of plot advancing, but it also feels thematically relevant to the material that we're dealing with. So conceptually, the idea

that you cannot escape these perpetually repeating systems of violence or fear of pursuit of money or whatever the case, Maybe you simply can't escape them. Everybody's living on top of each other in this place. That's one of the themes of the show. The idea that everything, literally the chickens, shut out Gertie, come home to roost, is baked in.

I mean, it was made it evident the moment the show revealed that Mave is not only the daughter of Billy who was in the Dark Hearts, but was sleeping with Jason's wife and everyone in the Dark Hearts remembers Mave and Crazy Robbie. like it's not that far-fetched at that point to me. Yeah. That said, I am a proud leather jacketed member of the soft hearts. And I proudly tell you on this podcast, proudly tell you on this podcast that there was a part of me in the previous episode where when Maeve seized the bag of money and I was like, thank God we won't see Maeve in the finale because they're all worked out.

Yeah. I had a feeling that was going to blow up in Mave's face a little bit when they were just like, just hide it in the one place. No, Pery has definitely seen you hanging out. For what it's worth, that was fairly good advice from her Norm Corps friend. Oh, she's a ride or die. Was there her name Bridges? Yes.

Yes. For what it's worth, I thought that was a pretty savvy read of the situation. Because I think you and I, due to the entertainment we consume, have definitely spent considerable amount of Malcolm Gladwell hours, just wondering how we might respond in certain situations or like what the only good thing to do if blank is, you know? and head on a swivel of that one. I thought it was a good plan. What do you think about my idea of we freeze time before everything goes wrong and we do a spinoff show of Perry and Jason,

but it's like waiting for Godot. It's just like they're stuck in that cabin, making different trout preparations. First of all, I'm in London, so I have to say waiting for God. Oh, sorry. Just FYI, yeah. I'll let you get away with it once. The second thing is a great poll by you.

I thought of a different, recent entertainment. I got real mountain head vibes. Yes. From that, that I feel like if this had had like a two-hour runtime, there could have been a lot of similar, like,

we are going to kill a guy in this house, kind of comedy antics. But that is a well-traveled boning knife. I will say that it is. And I just want to say for any motorcycle gangs that are listening, I would recommend that if you have bike chains, not to put your initials on. them. That was a, that is a really smart call. You know, I think in this day and age, granted,

we live in a surveillance state, perhaps we can find you in other ways. But, you know, if it's, it didn't take a lot of thinking through to find who's PD who might be in the dark hearts, huh? I mean, it may have been, as they say over here, over-egging the pudding a bit. Sure. Because I do think when they pull her body from the quarry and she has a bike chain, Like, again, I feel like there was, it was a relatively short path. Yeah, I mean, I personally just liked the idea and I was okay with the idea that everybody sins, you can't watch them away. They're all following them around. Jason was going to find that out.

You know, Jason. And Perry on some level was, I think, okay with him finding it out. Yeah, because obviously he has like this father-son relationship with Jason. I just want to say briefly with the Grasso thing. I had kind of in my head, if we didn't get a backstory to why Grasso was doing this, sort of written a departed style. Grasso is always like a child of the dark hearts

kind of friends, lifelong friends with Jason, although I don't really know if that's a very rewarding relationship. I mean, Jason doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has lifelong friends. I think we all could imagine what he was like on the playground. I can see Jason being a cool guy to hang and play Halo with maybe, but as soon as you kind of introduce any outside of influences, I think it's pretty bad.

But Grasso has a very, I guess understandable. You know, I needed to move my mother into a nursing home. I needed to buy a house. Listen, this is the right podcast for that kind of conversation. And that in itself, you know, you can't forgive him for like Lizzie getting killed, basically because of his actions. But at the end of the day, he's given this sort of a narrative

that makes a little bit more sense as to why he would betray his fellow law enforcement. But what did you think of Frankl and his performance and the sort of Grasso arc here? I do want to say, just before I forget, before we move on from the Perry and Jason

and Aaron of it all, like I think that, you know, sometimes people throw around when they're talking about a show, they're like, oh, well, it's just because it's HBO, it's blank. And often they're like, it gets a pass because of the

starry actors or just even the way that it's shot. Like, the moment that stood out to me is like, why this is an HBO show is the fact that they had the resources to do a splinter unit to film police divers retrieving Aaron's body. Yes. Like, that is something in a script that nine out of ten networks and streamers are like, do you need it? Like, we, there's no one in this shot. They found Aaron's body and she has Perry's chain in her hand.

And it would just be like, all right. Exactly. Or you do it in the morgue or something. Like it's an exterior shot. It's a location shot. There's no one in the scene that you know, unless Margarito LeVava really just lay flat for a couple hours. But it's worth it. Like that's the time. That's worth the spend. Yes. To, I said this last week, I'll say it again. I owe Sir Kristen Cole an apology. I was not familiar with the true extent of your game. I think Fabian Frankel was incredible on this show. I think he was completely believable. I think he was completely alive in the character. I think that he was playing the version that we saw in the kitchen with his sister the entire time.

You know, like it's sort of an abstract comment to make, but especially because often actors don't know what's in future scripts. Now, I think all the scripts were written for this, so it's possible that he knew the backstory. But it's very rewarding as a viewer when you feel like the actor. has been playing something, has been holding a card and it makes sense if you track it through the performance

that he has people that he thinks about that motivate him. I thought the performance was really vulnerable. Me too. In a way that I thought was really, really affecting. I thought the way that he delivered before the bullets start flying, the speech about how he's going to turn himself in,

it tracks. to me. I loved the explosion of like, I don't know how you did this for 20 years. Like, I can't, I can't sleep. My stomach's all messed up. And I was like, buddy, fly to London seven times in a year. You know, it's the same thing. It's basically the same thing.

I'm going to go turn myself into the embassy. What embassy? Well, Wind horse fingers. I don't know. I heard there's some nice land up in Canada. What do you think of it? He was great. And,

it's it's just really the idea of making an emo vulnerable sweet rat is a really cool wrinkle on that storyline you know what I mean like there's other versions of this show where you know the twist is that he's been the bad guy the whole time and he runs fent in

in Philly you know or something and it's it becomes a little bit more demonic it just felt like it felt consistent and in tune with and in the same key of the rest of the characters' journeys, even if it didn't feel like the most pipe-hitting, hard-ass crime shit that we like. Look, there are, tropes are real for a reason, and some of our favorite shows,

including in certain ways this one, like fall back on them, whether it's just the mole or the villain with the one Achilles' heel of emotion or whatever, the case may be. But there's a tendency, I think, in the TV shows that you and I like the best that brings an almost like journalistic sensibility in like, not in the sense of like Seymour Hirsch uncovering uncovering like WMDs, but like Joseph Mitchell or like other New York writers being like, what's your story man on the street? Like there's such a deep, deep well of curiosity within the writing of this show that, you know, in real life, I was about saying, in real life,

people aren't just pure evil, but maybe I'm starting to reconsider that phrase. But like generally, people are the main characters of their own story. Yes. And they have reasons for what they do that are not entirely Machiavellian. And it's difficult and sometimes not warranted to find space for that to be given voice in cop shows, crime shows, the TV shows that move the needle or get us talking week to week. I'm very grateful when we see that. And so whether it's, whether it's Jason having real anguish over the discovery of Aaron's body or whether it's Kathleen downing opioids with white wine at 10 a.m. Everybody has a little bit extra and they found the room for it and they fought to have the room for it and kudos to HBO for giving them the

room for it. It made it a richer experience. Martha Plimpton as the tool for this shit captain is that's also an HBO hallmark is like, hey, let's get this incredible performer. or do something that we've never gotten to see her do before and watch her slide into it like she's been in Sydney LeMette movies for most of her life, you know, like, she has been in some, but I mean, like, I think. There's no, and just to put a bow on it,

like, there is no better avatar for the type of humanity that we're talking about here than Mark Ruffalo. Like, do you remember, do you remember the way people talked about him when you can count on me came out? So that movie came out, he was relatively unknown. and anyone who saw that movie or anyone who read about movies fell in love with him, right?

Like it's such a deep and intense way. Not necessarily because he was the character that he played in that movie and he played him brilliantly, but because it was just like watching an x-ray of someone's emotional system. Yeah. He's completely alive second to second with the kind of emotions that usually just pass over people's face like, you know, like fucking wind going through the wheat and gladiator. And this isn't necessarily his best performance, but at least in my recent memory, it's the most Mark Ruffalo performance since then.

Yeah. Because the other thing you and I didn't see coming was that it wasn't just about the steady drumbeat of his humanity. Like, as it backdrop to all the crime shit, it was all building towards his scene of forgiveness and his speech. And we talked to Brad a lot about that, so we don't need to like, bring it down again. We can talk about that because we get into the last shot, we get into the, to the beach, a lot of stuff with Ingleby.

It's just incredible shit. I'll talk to you next week. It's great seeing you. Wait, I got to get you on the record for... I got to get you on the record for one more thing about this. Again, we asked Brad about it, but like, do you want more task? At the end of mayor, we were like, why can't we have more of this? And I think they went a little bit down the road.

And I don't know the details. But I feel like the takeaway was it would have to top the first one. Maybe we just leave it alone. I want more Ingallsby Delco stuff. Yeah. I am very open to ruffle it. Like Tom takes McGinty's job when she retires and runs a new task force or whatever. I do think that one of the things that is amazing about Mare and Task is the completeness of the story.

like I want to leave Tom in that bedroom you know I don't want him to then be like Emily's been kidnapped you know yeah I think that's legit I want my own version of that story and I feel the same way about mayor honestly

for as much as I love it I'm like the things that happen in mirror the craziest things that would ever happen in somebody's life I don't know if you want to do season two of that now that being said it's right there to have mayor

and to have Winslet and Ruffalo in a show together and to do a crossover of some kind. And if this is like a Delco Crime universe, you know that we'll be the first ones in mind. But I think you're right that maybe the actual way to do it would be Freddie, you know, is still,

is the guy doing the drugs? Because for as much as the word, like, you know, during the rise of the prestige television era, there was a lot of talk about like novels and books on TV or whatever. and it's like David Simon saying, each episode is a chapter, not the whole book.

Okay. Task and mare are novels in a way that I really, really appreciate and that obviously resonate with us. And part of the beauty of a work of fiction at length, right, is that the characters can go on journeys, but have like symmetrical or complementary arcs. And what's beautiful to me about Task, among many things, is like Robbie's story is rich, profound,

and as you said, complete. it's also, you know, fine. I mean, he's dead. Yeah. Tom is not dead in the narrative, but his story is equally profound, equally complete, and complete because of its relationship to Rarabi's story.

So I'm kind of talking myself into agreeing with you because they did it. They, if I could quote a dormant podcast, they stuck the landing on this. Let's get into our interview with Brad Engelsby and Andy will be back later this week. to chat with me. I'm sure. Thanks to everybody listening to our task stuff. It's been really fun talking about it. Greenwald, I'll see you later this week. Do you want to just say overdosed or

homeowner? One more time? No. Okay. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly. what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime.

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Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. Want your kids to learn and play every Sunday for free? Plenty kids is using sports and evidence-based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities. Every Sunday from April 12th to May 10th, We're running free sessions at the Boys and Girls Club,

New Rochelle, for all children. Tap the banner or visit clinickids.com to learn more. That's Clinic with a K. Clinic Kids is a registered 501c3 nonprofit. Andy and I are so honored to welcome Brad Ingallsby, the bard of southeastern Pennsylvania, the creator of task, the writer of task. One of Andy and I's favorite shows of the year,

and you've just watched the finale if you were here because we are going to be talking explicitly about stuff that happens in the finale and this season of task. Brad, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, my God. I'm honored to be here, guys. I always love talking to you. First of all, I just got to say, I found myself, like, pretty emotionally overwhelmed by the finale and in very unexpected ways. I went into this show.

Really, you know, obviously, like, expecting this. amazing prestige kind of crime drama and I think I walked away with something much different and I wanted to kind of ask you about why did you do this show and what were the things that you were kind of working out

because obviously you like this kind of stuff and you love like crime TV crime stories but it felt like there was something much deeper at play here for you. Yeah I think I really started with you know the Tom's character the character of Tom and the journey of forgiveness.

And that to me, and it goes back to mayor guys. I really, really can say that mayor was the story in my head from the earliest, earliest seeds was about a woman who wasn't going to confront the death of her son and quite literally has to go up to the attic at the end. And that, to me, was what that story was about. There were a lot of other developments along the way and it became a whodunit. But that, to me, was really interesting. And the same for task.

It really started with Tom Brandis. I had gotten into this idea of a caretaker and how hard it would be to take care of a child with a psychiatric disorder. And I started to go down that road and ask how it would question my faith and my ability to get out of bed every day. And so that was really what I was interested in

and then exploring how that character in some way, in this case, through interacting with Rob, in the task force, has to let go of the anger that he's been holding inside and has to forgive his son. And that to me was like the simplest seed of a story. And that was my interest in it, was a guy who's lost his faith at the end, has to come back. And I always felt, which I don't know if you, I mean, I hope it resonated with you, but I always felt like at the end of the story, his act of faith was letting Sam go, that he was going to, he allowed Sam to go. And he had faith that he was going to be okay. And that was his act of faith at the end was letting Sam go and

believing he was going to be okay. It wasn't that Tom was going back to church and kneeling at the altar or saying mass or any of that. It was his act of faith was having a belief that Sam was going to be okay. He wanted to keep Sam, but he had to let him go. And so that's what really started the story for me. And then I had to fill in all the other action beats and plot beats along the way, guys. So, Brad, first of all, because my mic wasn't really working, I haven't spoken yet. So thank you for the show and thank you for joining us. I'm interested to hear you say that your relationship to the show was Tom's journey. And I think that one of the things that was really rewarding and surprising about watching the series week to week was the slow reveal that this really was Tom's story, that what we thought was a two-hander ended up being a one-hander, if you will, that the log line that we got excited about, this is Heed in Philly.

A, it wasn't really in downtown Philly. and B, wasn't really about two guys running toward each other. It was about one guy moving forward. So since you've known that from the beginning, I'm curious what your logline was when you spoke to Mark Ruffalo about joining the cast. When you talked to Tom Pelfrey, how did you communicate the show to them in a way that you could tell us now that we've seen it all? Yes.

Well, look, I did say to them, listen, it's a collision course of these two guys. But I always knew when Robbie was going to die. said that, you know, what always, you know, what I always felt strongly about was that a part of Tom's own journey to, you know, releasing the anger was meeting Robbie and seeing, and seeing Robbie's sacrifice, right? Realizing in the end when he sees the picture that Kath gives him is like, oh, wow, he did have a plan. He knew what he was doing going up there along. He wasn't going up there to get away. He was going up there as a sacrifice, you know, some way to better his family. And so I always said that to those two guys. I never shied away

from the collision course. And I do think, and look, I'll also say this. On the page, it was probably more Tom's journey on the page. But Tom Pelfrey was so good that, you know, and I'll also tell you another story. He was so good that I got done editing the sixth episode and it always ended with Maeve, you know, with Mayne getting the money and I thought, wow, we're missing something with Robbie. We have to give him

a moment of triumph or something. And then I went back into the dailies and we found this random little eight second clip of him laughing. I think Jeremiah, our director was off camera, you know, making a joke or something. And it's why that episode ends

with Pelfrey instead of Amelia was because I just felt like the audience had become so attached to him. And look, it's the same problem I had with Evan in Mayer. On the page, Evan's character was good, but it wasn't that good. I'll be honest. And Evan came in and was so charming that when we got to editing the fifth episode of mayor, I went, dude, we're really in trouble. An audience is going to hate us.

They love this character so much. And I felt the exact same way about Robbie, that he was a very compelling character on the page. but Tom just elevated this character and he was really in everyone's heart. And so I think sometimes, Andy, and you're a writer too, you know this, that an actor is able to bring out a character

in ways you can't expect or predict. And Pelfrey really did that. And so it's one of those worries that I had when I actually watched the episode six is like, Tom is such a compelling presence. What is an episode without him going to feel? and look like and how are we going to carry it through? And it's why I hope that ending sequence in the courtroom

and the stuff with May that there's still enough of that emotional investment and attachment to carry the audience through. It's also a testament to Mark Bruffalo's performance and just the innate humanity and humility that he brings to every performance because you watch this first few episodes and you're like, well, this isn't a movie star performance.

This is like the bass drum, the heartbeat of the show. and then it's only when the snare drum drops out of the mix that you realize that that's been keeping you alive the whole time and he somehow coaxed that, I don't know if you coaxed that performance, you encourage that performance or he just found the rhythm

to realize that the star of the show has been here the whole time, the main character has been here. You know, I would always say to Mark, it's such a humble performance. I think if you look, as you said, if you look at the early episodes, he's really letting everybody else shine.

Allison's, you know, all of her humor and Kathleen. and Martha, he allows them to shine in a way. And like you said, he's sort of almost very quiet in those early scenes. And only then does he rise up? I think only when I always said that I think he's only activated really when he thinks he's going to die and he says, I need to call my son. And I think if you look at his performance after that point, he's way more active in a

way that we haven't seen. That's a turning point when he thinks he's going to die. He then says, I have to call my son. I have to say something to him. And that's the turning point. And every scene with him after that, he's more activated, he's more aware, he's more present. And so that I felt like was the turning point in his character

in those moments with Robbie when he's starting to feel like he could die. He starts to get activated in a way that we haven't seen before. Yeah, it's awesome because I think a different performer, well, I'm guessing, but I think a different performer might be like, I need to do something pretty cool in these first few episodes. And I don't know if he did this on purpose or if this is just a trick of the light and I noticed it or what. But I feel like I may have even mentioned this to you when we did the event a couple of weeks ago. He acts the first half of this season up through five really with very heavy eyelids.

Like his eyes are almost closed. And it's like his eyes open after. And even the last shot of this show is him looking up. and finally seeing like life again. I don't know if he was like, I have that in my back pocket. I'm going to break it out for the last shot of this series, but it worked, man.

I was like, holy shit. I can't believe this just happened. No, you know, and I also think he acted with like just the, you know, I always,

especially in the early episodes, could feel the weight of the world on his shoulders, the way he walked around. And like, he was able to bring all of that. that trauma and guilt and regret and pain into those scenes. And so every scene, even when he was, you know, even when it was a procedural scene,

you felt all the family stuff on him. And that's what's so great about the release, I think at the end is that it's sort of, he's able to let go of all that stuff. And as an audience, we've experienced it with him just in the way he walks around, interacts with people. And so I'm really glad you felt that way, at the end that there was some kind of release or letting go

or, you know, I think that's what we intended it to be. It was there, you know, I wanted it to be a hopeful ending. Yeah, I mean, I was, so I wanted to ask you about six and seven, but especially the mechanics of some of the more crime fiction genre aspects of it. Because I think one of the things that was liberating about watching this was letting go of, you know, being a little bit of a granular, realist about everything and like what is the exact kind of like procedural doctor and these guys should be following and yeah almost feeling like this was more like a bunch of people

that were not in control of their own lives and something was pushing them to these locations and having them collide and yeah how much do you let what you want to say about human life dictate the crime stuff and how much do you let the crime stuff and how much do you let the crime stuff dictate what you want to say about humanity? It's always, it's always the, I'm always interested in a group of characters and then the crime is just an excuse. It's just an excuse to get them together. I mean, true. And I think every time I get to writing a procedural scene, I cringe and go, oh my God, what can I do to possibly make it interesting? Like, these scenes kill me. I hate procedural scenes. And if you,

If you look at task in particular, I think my remedy is always to add some humor. Like, you know, Martha Plimpton. So they're getting these like procedural beats, but they're always a laugh or a joke. Because I'm really, you know, I hate to say this, Chris, I'm really not interested in the procedural stuff. I mean, I shouldn't say that. I know an audience needs to follow a story and you need to move the ball down the field. but I'm really, really interested in the way these people interact and the way an incident changes their life or situation,

how they react in the face of suffering, how they react in the case of Tom in the wake of losing his faith. Like those are the things that get me out of bed every morning. The procedural elements, I'm telling you, they're always hard to write. And yet I know there's a need to have them. But the thing that gets me excited and the reason I got into this business, it was to write, I wanted to write characters. I wanted to understand how they interact with each other, how they respond in the face of losing someone they love. Those are the things that get me excited.

And the other stuff is just an excuse to spend time with them. And I really truly feel that way. And I think that's why what you're getting at is that even, when we had those procedural scenes, like they're quick and fast, and we don't go into the computer screens or laptops or cell phones. We almost just, like,

I'll just quickly snatch the clue that gets us to the next scene of interacting with these people I care about, you know? We get it. You love the beauty and the poetry of the game. You're not an ex-as-and-O's guy. You're like Kevin Petulow. Right?

You just like the assortment of players on offense. The over-under for Kevin Petulow references was seven minutes and Andy. You don't need to get them to run in the same direction or in opposite direction. So a lot of the conversation about the season, obviously circles themes of forgiveness. The word penance comes up specifically in this finale.

Tom does not judge Grasso. He leaves that for himself to do. He forgives Ethan. But Brad, you're the creator of the show, and inevitably, you doled out some justice, especially in the finale. Some fates felt like you're balancing the scales. Aaron's bodies recovered.

Perry dies in the water as well. Others are surprising. The dark hearts did not get forgiven. I would say that. That's fair. No, we let them go. They had some heavy losses. I guess the specific question is in the role of creator and judge jury and executioner,

why is Grasso left alive? Why was it important for you to give him that arc and even to give him the chance, give us the chance to understand him more this episode via the introduction of his sister? Yeah, well, I thought that scene was really important. And that was one we, and that was one that we had planned. And Lily Kay came in as a wonderful actor. Great. And she, and God bless her, she came in, did one day of work.

And that scene was always in there. Because one of the things we talk about a lot on set is, hey, we don't have to agree with the decision these people make. We don't have to agree with a Grasso or a Robbie. But I feel as a writer, it's my responsibility to understand why. And that's what that scene with Grasso and his sister did, I think, was to at least understand why, how he got in this situation in the first place. And the shame he feels about his decision. And I think, you know, one of the things my uncle, he was a, you know, he was a priest and he would hear confession. And one of the things he said to me was I'd be in the booth and the same people would come every single week.

And they would say, you know, I cursed it my mom or I lied to my spouse. And he would say, you know what, I'm not going to give you any penance. I'm going to talk to God on your behalf. I don't want you to worry about these things. I'm going to talk to God. And while they came back every single week with the same sins, it was they wanted the penance, right? And the shame was so overwhelming and corrosive. And, you know, I grew up Catholic and it's still something I deal with.

And I feel like I was exploring a bit of myself in Grasso and trying to just understand things. I think that's a part of his journey along the way. He's asking Tom these questions along the way. He wants to believe again. He wants to have a faith. And I think what I was getting at with Tom is that almost the worst punishment that Grasso could have is, is to have to deal with it on his own. It's almost worse than death in a way for Grasso,

is to have to live with the consequences of his actions. I'm not going to let you off the hook, Grasso. I'm not going to give you, I'm going to let you sit with what you've done on your own. And I think that's something that I learned from my uncle is that the people, they were always beating themselves up. It didn't require him to have any penance

or dole out any pen. They were doing it themselves, way worse than any penance he could. could give them. And that really resonated with me. And I felt like that was something Grasso, who I felt grew up in the Catholic Church in South Philly, had that experience, that institution that he felt had let him go or had let him down. I felt like that would be a punishment worth than, you know, I think it would be worse than him actually passing away in that last scene. It's just the ability he has to go on with his life and deal with the consequences of what he's

done, you know? I did want to ask you specifically about Catholicism, because while I may recognize the Delco accents. That is not a church I'm familiar with, certainly growing up in. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your experiences like young Brad, if you will, like were there elements of growing up in the church that excited you or surprised you or intrigued you in the same way that the comic books maybe you were reading did or books? Like, is there something that lit you up with questions or the size of the world or the beauty in the world? Because yeah, I just love to hear your thoughts on that because it's baked into the show in a way that's fascinating. Yeah, it really is. I mean, it was something that, you know,

that was the one role my father had. He wasn't a disciplinary. And basically, if you're going to live under this roof, you have to go to church every week. I don't care if it's Saturday night or Sunday morning, you are going to go to church. And so it was such a part of my upbringing. And what I loved about the church was, you know, the compassion, the inclusivity of the Bible. And yet what I couldn't understand, it just felt so inconsistent to me, right? That there were passages that I could understand as being this all-merciful God. And then there was Job and this, you know, and then there were other passages that I couldn't make sense of. Like, how can that exist and that exist? And I don't think I've ever gotten the answers. But I, you know, what I always say

to my uncle, and there's a great quote by a rabbi, I think it's Herschel, I may have mentioned, to you guys before, but he said, I'm closest to God when I'm asking the questions as opposed to when I think I know the answers. And that has been my journey, is I don't know, I don't have an answer, but there are so many things I love about the church and so many things that make no sense to me. And I think the older I get, you know, there's a distance between those things, but I feel like I'm always on the journey. And that's why I meet with my uncle all the time. So there were so many things about the church, Andy, that I loved. Oh, my God, there's a sense of kindness, take the poorest among us and bring them in and care for them. And then there were other passages I would read and go,

wait, but that doesn't seem like the same person, right? And that's the magic and the torturous nature of the Bible. It's all interpretation. I could read a passage and think one thing. And it's actually a quote we used in Mayer. I think in the opening episode, the priest says, our idea of God, it tells us more about ourselves than it does about him. I think that's so true. Like, I want to believe that God is all merciful. And so that's how I think of it. But that, but I have a lot of friends and my father has a different view of things. And so it's just always really intrigued me. And there are so many things I love about it and so many things that still to the day make absolutely no sense to me. But I'm on the journey always. And I love to ask the

questions. And I think in asking the questions, there's a reward there, you know? to keep it. If you did find the answer, would you announce it on the watch podcast? Could that be a watch exclusive? I think that would be great for our numbers and our lives. And our salvation. I don't mean to keep us on God corner, but I wanted to mention to you that one of the things that early in the season,

we got an email from a viewer who talked about Richard Rour to us in this email. And, you know, I bought falling upward and started reading it and was obviously struck by the heavy use of the word task in the opening passages of it. And frankly, like, Roar writing about storytelling, but also, you know, this idea of the two tasks in life and the two halves of your life, I thought served as like an incredible lens through which to view the series. I wanted to know if you could talk to me a little bit about Roar and whether or not, like, that was kind of like a structural thing, or was it just a reference? Because obviously a character brings it up. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question.

I mean, I really know Roar. I really know his work, and it was recommended to me, I'm my uncle. I really know his work through the Universal Christ, which was my experience with Roar. And I think I know what you're getting at. There's like the task of understanding your place. Yeah. It's like you build up your identity and then you have to figure out what fills up your identity. You like what fills up to your heart basically.

Yes, exactly. Well, you know, I think the reason we put Roar in there is because I, it's, it's a conversation I've had with my uncle a number of times. And this idea of Christ is being almost like the love that exists between people. And that's always really interest me. As a kid, I was taught one thing. There's this guy in heaven who's waiting to judge you, the ultimate arbiter, right? And what I found so appealing about Roar was, wait a second.

what if that's a very myopic way of viewing God? What if it's a much more inclusive Christ? And that it's almost sort of the love force that exists between all these people. And I just found that to be such an interesting idea. And it's something that I've had many, many conversations about with my uncle. And I really think it's sort of how he views God now. And he was raised in the church that believed, hey, if you sin, you go to confession, and there's someone keeping track in heaven,

and you're going to have to face that person eventually. And so I've always been eager to learn about other ideas of God and see how it lines up with my ideas over the years. And so it wasn't that task was born out of Roar. It was more that my experience with Roar was something I felt that Tom would have explored as a character, that I really felt like just given his identity as a priest. And I always felt he was a very inclusive and progressive priest.

I felt like, oh, that's something that he would have read. He would have read Richard Roar. He would have listened to his things. And so it felt like it was in the zone of what Tom would listen to. And so that's why I put Roar in there. And so it wasn't as if Tass was born out of Roar, but it did feel like I felt strongly that Tom would know Roar's work and be someone that read his book.

Either way, the best art is the art that makes you read other stuff and go look for other stuff. So I just thought it was really cool because the finale to me was as much about kids as it was about the characters that were having gunfights and going to jail. And you wind up at the end with Ethan, Emily, these very obvious shots of these people, Sam and Mave and the kids. all starting kind of like a second half of their life in some ways. And I just thought it was really fascinating that even with, you know, Robbie going down and Lizzie going down and the dark hearts going down and Grasso's going to prison and all these people, but there is this like rebirth at the end of the episode. Yeah, well, I think that was like, I'm really glad you said it because it was so important for me to have,

it was really important to really give the kids a voice. And that was something that like, and I can tell you, There were many times, just to give you a peek behind the curtain, where I felt like, you know, we could have, in the edit, we could have gotten rid of some of those scenes, you know, that Emily with the guidance counselor and, you know, just little scenes like Harper asking Mave about the date. And there were so many little scenes that if I would have submitted the episode to HBO,

they probably wouldn't have missed it. But I felt like if we're going to talk about the actions of the fathers, well, we have to give voice to the kid that have to be a part of it. And they have to speak with honesty. And we have to see the impact these actions have on the kids. It's just so important. And so that was something we really, really were constantly trying to keep in the show. So I'm really glad that resonated with you.

And I thought one of the most meaningful scenes in the show was when Emily said, like, all I'm ever supposed to feel is gratitude. I'm never allowed to have an honest emotion. I'm just supposed to feel one thing all the time. And God forbid, I feel something else. I'm not grateful anymore. And that was one scene that I really was like, we have to keep this in the show.

It speaks to what the show is really about. And I know the plot stuff needs to be there, but in the end, it's my hope that the aggregate of all these little things that we're trying to keep will have an impact at the end of the show. So we really, really wanted to keep the kids scenes in there. I think they're incredibly rewarding and they're incredibly important.

And like a moment ago you talked about how you're torn between the prose of the investigation and the investigative beats and then like the poetry of the deeper meaning. But let's make this a Trinity. I don't know if you've ever heard of that arrangement of things before. But like I think the third piece is what you're talking about, which is that every

time you set off on a journey as a writer, what I'm really responding to is that the car just swerves like a misaligned whatever towards more life. And I find that so rare in the way TV is made these days. Those scenes do get cut. And sometimes I feel like it's almost like it's like an extra course in a meal that like you can't help but introduce Sarah the daughter and oh, we don't like her. Oh, but now she has a backstory. And now she has empathy. And now

she has nuance. And now we, she's a part of the fabric of the show. Like I think one of the most, if I may, like Brad Beats of the finale is that the fucking magician kid is now babysitting. like it's it feels good you know to see the depth of this and I I wonder there's sort of like two parts

but you totally could have cut that I know but you get this this lovely moment and I think you guys that actually means a lot to me because I like there are battles we have

and I'm so it makes my heart warm that you guys like had picked up on the magician being in their babysitting but I just wonder if like in your writing like do you trace

that to some innate curiosity, advice you were given once? Are you just a misaligned chassis that's driving off the road? Do you digress in your office, like giving us these writing backstories that even that we don't even see? I wonder how you calibrate that interest. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's always like, you know, one of the things that I like to say early in the process is why everyone needs to earn a seat at the table. Everyone needs to be here for a reason. And it can't just be a funny line or a funny scene. Like, if we're going to have Leo, he needs to pay off in some way. If we're going to have Sarah, she needs to pay off in some way.

And it's important to me that that payoff is unexpected. It's, you know, it's, oh, we thought you were one person. And then we learned a little bit more like you were saying, Andy. Oh, we hate Sarah. She's so nasty in the second episode. Well, and we learn a little bit about her. We understand her a little bit more. And suddenly we look at her a little differently.

And so I love just trying to I love trying to understand or expect what an audience expects and then subverting it in some way. That isn't cheap, but subverting it in some way that feels earned and surprising. And it is important to me that at the end of the show, I could make a case for every character having been in the show. Well, they weren't there just to give us a laugh.

It was like Leo was there. And the reason I love Leo is, because what I always said was important about him and why we fought to keep him was he lets us see Emily as a kid. Every other scene, she's just with her dad. She's working. She's taking care of her dad, yeah.

Yes, and it's like she lets, he gives us access to what she might look like if she was a normal team not dealing with all this crisis. She smiles, she giggles, she gets drunk, she throws up, she gets asked on a date. Like, it allowed us the glimpse of side of her that is the what could have been if this family. And so I really want to be able to say at the end of the show,

everyone had a reason. They all gave us something. And it's really important to me that I can say that at the end. And sometimes they do lose a bit in the edit or the payoff isn't what you imagine. But I really try. And I think it comes from a love of human beings. I really love these characters so much.

And, you know, I want more Leo. I wanted more scenes with Aaliyah. I wanted more scenes with Alice and Lizzie. And, like, you know, ultimately, I didn't get to have all those scenes. But if it was up to me, it would have been like 18-hour show. And there would be scenes with Lizzie and Alia hanging out and getting to know each other. You know, I love that. I feel like you're triggering, Chris.

You keep saying more Allison and more, Lee. I'm watching him just bite his cheek. Chris, you just want to go ISO on this for a minute? I mean, she was just too beautiful for this world, you know? She was too. It was, it is what it is. Like, you know, I don't think I'm going to handle it. if she'd found out Grasso was the mole, you know?

But like, Brad, legitimately, you have Amelia and you have Allison and you have Fabian, and they're none of them, they're not just not from Delco, they're not from the United States of America. And yet these are three of the greatest, I don't even know the word, inhabitations of people that we have all met or known that I've ever seen on the screen. The only question is how. And yes, they are amazing actors, but if you could do. just talk about like the initiation process, the hazing, like the moment behind the monitors when you saw Allison do that scene at the bar that Chris is now tearing up thinking about.

It feels like some sort of like wizardry. Well, listen, as you said, Annie, a lot of incredible talent there. But I think a couple things. And I think we talked a little bit about this when I was on the panel with you guys, is, you know, after we hire the actors, we immediately bring in the dialect coach, Suzanne, who they all know, and she's just wonderful. And so that process starts really, really early. And we usually identify one person or one voice, really,

that an actor can attach to. And Amelia was able to, I forget her girl's name, but it was a woman from Ridley and Allison had one too. And the other thing I think is so important, guys, is like, we shoot the show here. So Allison is here in Delco. She's driving around to bars. She's going Fabian and they're going to bars.

And I think I can't quantify how that, how that, you know, how much that means. But it means a lot. And so it's a mix of incredible talent. And like, I mean, I mean, the crazy thing is that all three of them could speak in the Delco accent and for Fab, like a South Philly thing. And then the minute you said cut instantly go back into British. And that was Kate's gift, too, just instantly go back. And I don't know if it's a part of their training. But it is a gift.

And, you know, I can bring them into Delco. I can drive them to the bars or get them set up with people I have. But I think I just am always amazed at, you know, at the ability to switch on and off that quickly. I don't know. I mean, I love them all. Well, now that he's come out of retirement, I would love to see Daniel DeLewis in one of these shows. but not turn the switch off. You know,

and just be like walking around being a guy from Philly all day. Dirtbag guy. Yeah. Also, I'm just watching, while you're answering, I'm just watching Chris, and I just feel like there's like the gears are turning that like there are intimacy coordinators now

on like sexy movies and like, could there be a regional coordinator? Or like just like smoke one cigarette outside of Bad Brother like once a week with these guys and like just to help keep them focus, you know. I got you, Chris. I got you cover, man. We're going to bring you in the next one. You know, this is a good actually opportunity to ask you about this where, you know, it's a Philly show.

It's broadly a Delco show. I think that when I've talked to people about this series or before it came out or when the trailer dropped, the one with G&R in it, like there was this anticipation. At least I had this anticipation. It's like, oh, this can be like an urban thriller. Like this is, we're going to get. And it is pastoral, you know, like most of the, I would say, second. half of the season is in the woods, you know? And all of the most important moments happen in nature.

Aaron's death, Sam's swimming lesson, you know, Robbie's quarry jump, and obviously the huge shootout up at the summer home, the cabin. Like, that is an element of Philadelphia that I don't think people really know, is that like you go down a block and you're in the middle of the forest? But could you talk a little bit about exploring the more, rural parts. And then also working with Jeremiah and Sally, because I feel like they really leaned into

the natural beauty of the city, but also like the poetry of like seeing wildlife, seeing foliage, seeing like all this stuff. Yeah. So it's funny because I would always say like, hey, it's a Delco show, not a Philly show. Like I think

you know, I think there were like so many of these log lines I think were written and it was like, it's Philly and I was like, oh boy, if people come into this thinking it's going to be like a urban thriller like you said chris this is going to be a huge disappointment um but i always felt like you know again it was born out of character truly i i i can i'll be honest and say i never really started saying i want to make a show about about the woods in delco and and in the same way i never wanted to tell a story about vagrants in the fifth episode it was

born out of oh my uncle he's an ex priest he's a bird watcher now right it's it's it's starts with the character and grounding that character in a way I can understand. And then out of that character, only out of the character, am I taking the themes and stretching them? And the same with Robbie, I felt like, okay, who is this guy? He's a trash man. He kind of lives out in the woods. Oh, he has a quarry. He swamming with his brother. This was their place of heaven that's been snatched away from them, that he's always trying to recreate in some way. And so it was only out of that idea, Chris, that all the wood stuff came into play. And I think I'm always operating out of a place of character. You know, again, I truly never said to myself, I want to, I want to make a show

that's out in the woods. And it was like, where would Robbie go that I believe? Oh, he'd have a little, like a little swimming hole where him and Cliff would go. Oh, that's cool. Oh, it's a place of lost heaven. Well, that's where Aaron could die later. Right. And so everything is born out of me trying to understand a character in a very granular way. And then only when I have that character in my head, then I'm stretching all these themes out. Like that's where the vagrant came from. Oh, what if Tom saw this bird?

It wasn't supposed to be there. Oh, now I can use that as an entry point for him to bridge the gap between him and Robbie. And then I could use it again. And then it was the same with Robbie. Oh, I love this quarry. How can bring the quarry back? Oh, that's where he used to go with Billy.

Oh, that's where Aaron goes to meet him, right? And so I think when you're starting from a place of character, all those other elements kind of, it's like a snowball. They start to come into you, but it's all coming out of the character. You know, I rarely start from a place of, oh, I want to tell a story about this place. I always say, I want to tell a story about this guy or this girl. And then what's their life like? And how do I use those things? But I do have a question about the place, specifically because this was true in Mare as well, but it's something that I kept noticing and thinking about while watching task.

was you and Jeremiah and Sally's camera specifically really showcased the relative age of this part of the country, right, compared to certainly where we live now in California and that the houses and the towns and the streets have a certain look that is almost unchanged. So like Ray and Shelley's house in California, that's like $1.2 million. Like that's a beautiful house, you know what I mean? Not that I've lived in California too long. Don't tell Shelley. She might have done some things different. Exactly. It's like fentanyl. Just dress it up a little bit. Dassey's in two, Shelly.

But just knocked down these connecting walls and you've got it. But what's changed is, you know, to go back to the Richard Ward, the content of the vessel, right? Like people are still yearning for community, still living in homes, but now there's fentanyl and now the middle class has been destroyed. And there is a, your camera doesn't flinch from showing that contrast. And, you know, you, in between making these series, I think you moved back home full time and you live there now. And so I wondered just what you feel, or if you feel, like, a responsibility to this place, how to depict it, how, and how you choose to depict it. A hundred percent, Andy, it's, you know, it's, you know, honestly, people say, oh, did you have a, like, a tough time doing a follow-up to mayor? And I said, yeah, because I'm telling another story about Delco.

It's not that I feel the, you know, there's obviously the burden of mayor, but also it's just a responsibility. I have to live here. I have to walk these streets. I have to bump into these people. So it's incredibly important to me. And I think what I, you know, truly what I, the most important thing to me when I write these stories about this place is that I hope the people here appreciate them. And I think what I'm always trying to do is give a voice, a tool. to a very specific community of people

that I don't think we often get to see on screen. And to show the kind of, I said, the heroism of the day-to-day life here, right? Like what I always admire, and it's really the character of Robbie is like, I just love this idea of he's living a life. He never imagined. In some ways, hasn't asked for.

But he's getting up every day. He's going to work really early in the morning. He's doing a job he doesn't love, out of a sense of duty. And I've always, that seems really simple, but I've always found that to be like incredibly heroic. Like I'm going to get up. I'm going to tie my shoes. I'm going to go to a job I don't love. I work with people I don't like.

I'm going to do something over the course of the day. I really don't want to be doing. And I'm doing it because I love my wife or my kids and I want them to have a better life or at least a life that's a little bit, a little different. And like, I just always loved that idea. And I've always just, I've always found that simple idea incredibly heroic. And I've also always thought those lives are as complex as other lives that get depicted on screen. And I always want to try to try to give those lives the dreams and the fears, the anxieties, and the complexity and the layering that I think they deserve.

And so it's really important to me that I can give a speech here in Delaware County and not have, you know, and not get up and get, you know, in some way harassed or like, I want people to feel proud of these shows. That is incredible. I think it's probably the most important thing to me, truly the most important thing to me, is I want people to feel like I've honored this place and that the characters do justice to them. That's really important to me.

I was wondering, you know, some of my favorite moments of this season of the series was moments that were unexplained or moments where I feel like you didn't overwrite it. And the thing that kind of haunted me was Aaron looking up at those kids partying up on the ledge. And obviously, like, it becomes a moment of like, you know, I need these kids to recognize that I'm being attacked by Perry. so hopefully they'll hear me. But before that, it seems like she's remembering being with Billy and Robbie as a kid. And there are a bunch of moments like that

where you don't have somebody go back and say, like, Sarah and Emily don't go right up to Rob, Tom, after the sort of sentencing hearing and say, what led you to that statement, Dad? And how are you feeling about it now? Like, do you let these things breathe? But as a writer, is it hard? to edit yourself?

Or do you look to maybe cut in post and say, okay, this doesn't need this extra beat? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a great question, Chris. I think some of it isn't editing and going, okay, I think we achieved it without having to say those things. But I also think some of it is like, you know, setting yourself up in the right way.

Like you were mentioning that scene with Aaron. Like, you're exactly right that she's looking up and remembering a time that might have happened there. and how much it's changed now. But I think so much of that emotion that you're so rightly getting out of that scene is that we laid in the backstory of these people. And if you've done the backstory

and you understand how much Billy meant to her and to Robbie, then you're able to get away with saying so little. And it's the same thing with Tom and his family. It's the layering you do even before you bring the audience into the story. You know, like that's what I love about task in mayor is even before the story, even before you bring the audience in, so much of the story has happened. You know, in mayor, oh, well, it's Dawn's daughter's been kidnapped. It's been a year. I haven't gotten any clues. The town that embrace me as a kid is turning against me. All that's already happened. And that's before we even jump into the story. And the same with Tom Brandis. Even before we enter the story, Ethan's been in prison for, I think he says, like, you know, 12 months or something like that.

And so I think you can get those emotions if you've done the backstory and you've layered it in. And the interactions so far are packed with all that backstory and pain and trauma. So when you get to those moments, a look can say a whole lot, you know. Okay, yes. And I completely agree with you. You do the work. We fall in love with these characters slowly and then like going broke, then all at once, right? And so that I don't even so that suddenly Mark Rope-

Or in some cases instantaneously. In the case of certain cops. So all of a sudden, Mark Ruffalo is making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and I don't know why I'm sobbing on my couch. Like, I don't know how you did that alchemy. But there is another example, just to bring this conversation back to the finale, where you did lay down a marker, whether we knew was coming or not, in terms of how you set out to make the show.

And at some point, you must have realized, in order to pull off this thing, I'm going to have to write this statement. I'm going to have to write the speech for this actor, and it's going to have to anchor the entirety of the series. Let me step on your answer by saying, you fucking did it because that was awesome, and it was incredible. And maybe I'm jet-lagged and miss my kids,

but that hit like a sledgehammer. That said... That means a lot to me, man. How did you prepare for it? Did you agonize? Did it flow? It was all heading to, towards a speech and you've you've backed yourself into that quarter.

Can I also just say I always love, I love the fact that Tom reads it and doesn't have some prepared memorized monologue or pretend to throw away the statement. And like, he's a guy who would not be able to do a three minute monologue. Like, yeah,

right, they're that. You know? That's funny you say that, Chris, that's exactly what Mark said to me too. I would have, I would have written this down.

Yeah. And I said, oh, yeah, I mean, 100%, you know, And so that was a decision we both made. I think it was very, I mean, it was really hard, Andy,

for all the reasons you said in that you, as you said, I've been walking myself into a corner this whole time. And now I have to pay it off. And I thought what was my way into it as a structure was that I wanted Tom to be, I felt like it was very important. It was important for him to acknowledge how hard it was first. That was my way in was for him to be like, I'm going to tell you how incredibly hard it was.

And I felt like because he was honest about that side of things, and there were some really painful moments there, I didn't put the name tag on because I didn't want the parents to think that was Ethan's dad. And some of that was just reading testimonials from parents and snatching those things out. I think there was another part of the speech where he says, you know, the hardest part was the weekend,

or we had them on our own. We couldn't drop them off to anybody. And that was something that I read. And when I read it, I thought, oh, my God, of course. Like the weekend would be the scariest. All these parents were coming to pick their kids up and saying, it's Friday, guys, let's go home. And then you get Mark Ruffel going, holy shit, I got to go home. Yeah.

I got to go home for two days. And you read some of those things that just instantly hits you in a way where you go, oh, my God, that is like, I can never write anything that good. That has to be experienced. And so I thought for me it was really important to be honest at the jump. And so that when he says, but there was also so much joy, that part, it was able to resonate as well. And so I really thought, well, let's let's have him say how hard it was. And let's have him be really, really honest about the experience of being Ethan's dad.

And we're going to get, and we're going to hear the truth in that side. So that when he says, but it was also so beautiful that we also believe that equally. And when I got that in my head, I felt like I could write the speech. And it was even longer on the page, because it's long in the show. But it was even longer on the page. But as you were getting at earlier, Chris, I felt like, well, let's do longer and let's get in the edit. And we'll see which pieces can be trimmed or. And then you have an actor like Mark, who's just so honest, who can get up and deliver a speech like that and be on camera for that long.

and the whole scene's about him having to give this speech. But yeah, I felt like it was what the show was about, you know, that if I could, if I could, if I could ask myself, what is the show about? It's about a guy who can't let go the anger that quite literally has to open the door to his house and let his son in. And that to me was what the, and that to me is what the show was about. So I had to land that plane in the last episode. And thank God I had Mark Ruffalo there to do it with me, you know? The show taught us many things. I feel like we learned about Canadian real estate.

We learned about how not to have your heart explode when you jump to a freezing quarry. The other thing that I did learn, I have to say, is I learned that task forces happen quite frequently. I mean, Grasso's whole, the whole betrayal is revealed because he was on another one. So inevitably, we have to ask you, is there a chance of another task force? I mean, they do get, they do happen in the wild. We asked you this about mayor, but we have to ask you again. Not even so much as HBO going to say, like, do more, but do you want to do more? Do you feel that there is more here?

You know, I do feel like I could tell another story of past. Again, and I think it's, as I was getting out of, it's less about the plot and me being excited to get to know another task force of people and getting to spend time with them, Andy, and getting to create new characters that I can go on a journey with. The idea that, wait, I get to build another task force, like Allison Oliver and Favb and, and, of course, Ruffalo and Tussow and Martha, like, and the idea that I would get to bring them back is really exciting to me. And, like, it's my dream to write these characters in this play. So if there was an appetite, like, 100% I would do it because it's my, as I was getting out of it. It's why I get out of bed every day as a writer. I get to write characters. And this story specifically allows me to introduce another,

like a completely new set of characters that we have to have to live with and experience a case with. And so that really gets me excited. Coming soon on HBO, Mother Club, the story of the dark hearts after they've been decimated by. They don't make it out too good here. No, I mean, yeah, those guys, because Vincent goes too, I don't even know what their leadership structure is like anymore.

Brad, thank you so much for joining us, man. Thank you for this series. Thank you for mayor and for tasks because they've been really fun to talk about, really fun to interrogate. And even though Andy and I would have season tickets anyway because of where they're set, like I think they're some of our favorite television in the last few years. Oh, thank you guys.

So appreciate you having me on the show, man. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items, then review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver it in as little as 30 minutes. So you can feel confident it's what you ordered. Fresh groceries, your way with Ralph's delivery and pickup. Get free delivery during online deal days,

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