The Watch - David Costabile Talks 'Billions' and 'Breaking Bad.' Plus, Reviewing 'Barry' and 'Trust' | The Watch (Ep. 238)

Episode Date: March 26, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the premieres of Bill Hader’s brainchild ‘Barry’ (4:00) and FX’s new series ‘Trust,’ about the Getty family (14:30). Later Chris sits down with actor David Costabile to talk about the fun of playing his character Wags on 'Billions' and the gravity of playing Gale on ‘Breaking Bad’ (28:00). Ringer Web Store Here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Hulu's The Looming Tower. Based on the Pulitzer Prize winning book by Lawrence Wright, this limited series traces the rising threat of Osama bin Laden and how the rivalry between the FBI and CIA may have set a path for the tragedy of 9-11. The Looming Tower is available now only on Hulu. Today's episode of the watch is also brought to you by Barry. Lights Camera Assassin from executive producers Bill Hader and Silicon Valley's Alec Berg. The new HBO comedy Barry centers on a depressed hitman who discovers

a new passion for acting while on a job in Los Angeles. Hader stars as Barry as he struggles to balance the responsibilities of the life he has with the pursuit of his dreams, hilariously misfiring along the way. This series also stars Henry Winkler, Stephen Root, and Sarah Goldberg. New episodes of Barry premiere every Sunday at 10.30 p.m. on HBO. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

And I'm editor at the rigor.com and joining me in the studio. He just got done doing Dexter's monologue from True Romance. It's Andy Greenwald. I thought you were going to do. He just got a Czechoslovakian, unregulated drug injected into his nether parts. Into his Netherlands? I just feel like I hope people watched either Barry or trust. That's always the fun part about those intros is you never know.

You never know. Andy, it's Monday. It's the watch. We got a lot of TV to talk about today. Barry, trust. Yeah. And then... It's Billions Island Day for CR. It's not an island. It's a continent at this point.

That's the truth, man. It's a flotilla of content at the ringer. We've got the recapables with Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin. We've got all manner of written blog posts. Yeah. And then today, joining us on the second half of the podcast, Mike Wags Wagner. In the real life, David Costable,

David is also... He's your favorite actor's favorite actor, man. He's in everything. He's in Lincoln. He's in The Wire. He's in Breaking Bad. Yeah, man. And he is the iconic character from Billions.

He is by far my favorite part of the show. I'm so happy he was on the show. I was not there. Yeah. Because I think we agreed that had I been there, we would have primarily talked about the bodegas on 7th Avenue in Park Slope, where he's been known to Rome. Do they still have bodegas in Park Slope?

I mean, most of them are Dwayne Reed's now. But yeah, a couple. And I don't know if people know this, but... He is the mayor. Park Slope is character actor central. because every day hopping off the F train I would see Costaville. I would see Corey Stoll.

I would see Steve Busemi. I mean, like, that's the spot. They just get there and talk about how they're just going to... The entire cast of the Death of Stalin is right there. Disappear into their roles. So we've got Dave Costable to do talk billions in the second half of the show.

We're going to spend the first half of the show talking about Barry and trust. Barry, the new show in HBO, kind of the brainchild of Bill Hater. Totally. And I definitely felt, especially in the pilot, which I think is definitely something, you know, like with pilots, they're like first albums.

And sometimes, and sometimes they feel a little overwrought. But this was one of those pilots that you could tell Bill Hader had been thinking about for a long time. I think he actually shot this quite a while ago. Well, in typical HBO fashion, their development pipeline is so slow that I think he first started to generate the idea. Like 14? In 14, 15, yeah, with Alec Berg, who has a great resume, but

more recently is the co-show runner of Silicon Valley. They shot the pilot, I think, in early 16, shot the series in 17, and it finally premiered in 18. And it has the feel of something that's been really, really thought out. Not only is the world really well-developed in a not in a very subtle way. I mean, it's a sense of place in terms of that North Hollywood vibe that the character mostly resides in is really excellent, but also tonally, which is probably the hardest thing to find in a pilot. Yeah, I agree with that. So to give a little bit of background, basically this is about an ex-soldier who has gotten back from Afghanistan and becomes a hit man working for one of his father's friends. And he seems to.

Which, by the way, is also in collateral. Yes, right. Literally a hit person from the army working for one of her father's friends. And frankly, there's a couple of beats in here where, you know, this show does remind me a little bit of gross point blank. Sure. Which is a pretty, I think, important movie in our high school days. John Cusack Mini Driver or college. Anyway, the 906.

Something like that, 97 maybe. Is that when you were in high school, Chris? I was taking some continuing education courses in high school. Moli Obama gap years. That's right. He's literally Benjamin Buttoning as we do this podcast. Why don't you tell me a little bit about how you felt about the pilot? I think you got it right when you talked about the tone.

This is an incredibly difficult tone to get right because I think it was clearly important. It's on the screen that it was important to Bill Hader to get the balance of actual hitman. and violent stuff right in relationship to the comedy. He's talked about this on various podcasts, including Bill Simmons podcast live from Austin. The pilot does a pretty good job balancing it and giving us the world that he wants the show to reside in. I've watched a little bit ahead.

I've watched the second episode. And it's one of those things that I think it's a little bit familiar from some other HBO comedies, and maybe this is reflective of their development process. The second episode, the seams showed a little more, but I wanted to keep going. And I think that speaks to, a potentially good to great show

where there are enough pieces there and enough of a world that has been considered that I want to stay in it, even though I'm not entirely sure about it on an episode to episode basis yet. The pilot, I mean, Hater is such a fascinating character. Well, Barry is the character.

Hater himself as a performer is fascinating. One of the, I mean, I would put him in, either in or just outside the top five of all-time SNL cast members. Yeah, and the SNL thing is interesting because in SNL, on screen for the most five minutes at a time. And often, you know, haters' characters, whether it was like Vincent Price or Stefan or

whoever he was doing at any given time, were these really, you know, either incredible impressions or really, really memorable characters. And in some ways, one of the most impressive things about Barry is the way in which he recedes into a role. Exactly. So I actually was almost surprised by how good he was since he wasn't that funny. And there's other funny things happening. Henry Winkler is just obviously like off and running as soon as this show starts as an acting coach.

But Hater, you're like, oh, is this guy been in like action movies and in thrillers for the last 20 years? It's really like he is at home in the material. Have you seen the skeleton twins? Yes. And he's talked about this in the press that that may have been the more important role. Because that's what HBO saw to be like, yeah, you can do this. Yeah, because, you know, you think about. the life cycle of S&L cast members, for the most part, they are either the biggest personalities

go on to trade on that giant personality, a laa. Will Ferrell. Or there are the traditional glue guys, like your Phil Hartman, who found a role that suited one aspect of his personality and allowed the other craziness to go around him on news radio, for example. Yeah. Hater was really fascinating because he was incandescent, but incandescent in character. It wasn't so much that you were excited about Bill Hater, you were excited about Bill Hader's impression or performance in. He is a glue guy who is also, underneath it all, a very good actor.

Right. So it's the right choice for him, I think, because he can play that sort of low base note in his own show. I think that they make a number of smart choices with the casting, as he said in the world. I think my only red flags going forward are,

one, the tone, because it's a comedy. It wants to be a comedy. And there are things like the Chechens, for example, the bald guy, who it's a great performance. Yeah. He's not done on the show. I hope that's not a spoiler.

And as he goes forward, you know, it's a broader choice and a broader performance. And sometimes I think that clashes as they're starting to figure it out going forward. The other thing is just, you know, actor, actors making shows about actors. It's kind of like when David Simon was making Season 5 of The Wire about journalism. Season 5 of the Wire has come up a lot recently. Yeah, I just, it's just, it's. It's always a, it's not a red flag. It's a tiny red handkerchief for me.

When people celebrate the quirks. A red pocket square. Exactly. Something classy. Yeah. When people make shows about worlds that they are particularly, and you should write what you know, but when you're like, it's sort of like telling someone about your dream. You know, when you find, of course, people who have been in improv groups or an acting

classes find the quirks of acting class is incredibly funny and fascinating. Yeah. Acting as a profession in general, probably like, journalism, too, that is prone to navel gazing. So while I liked the acting class in the beginning, I have some questions about its long-term viability just as something that is going to entertain everyone and not just themselves. These are small points. It's a interesting show, and it's an ambitious show, and it's worth pursuing. I mean, HBO hasn't launched a, have they launched a big comedy in a minute? I started to say it, then I started to walk it back. I guess Insecure

would be, if you call Insecure a comedy. Insecure was their last big half-hour I mean, sorry, divorce heads. You keep up with S2 of that show? How'd you do with that? I haven't really tapped in yet. I got three episodes in D. S1 of divorce. Oh, really?

Yeah, and that was it. Oh, I'm sorry, because you had the cape on for that show after one episode. No, all I said was it wasn't as bad as you said it was. You were like, this is about like how America has like a deep ulcer in the center. Yeah. And I was like, chill out. I don't think that's fair. I didn't say it's about that.

I said it's proof that it does. I'm glad we're talking about the HBO universe a little bit because I have, I do have one note. And this pains me because I don't like, I'm not in control of this. You know what I mean? And I know everybody has to work to eat. But I need us all to have a quorum. And we need to decide as a group how much, how many shows Glenn Fleshler can be in? Totally.

Because look, that dude is really cool. He's working. I love, he is routinely in the show. shows that I like. You want to list some of them? Let's just talk about. So, Glenn Flesher, you may remember him from Schmule in Sex and the City back in 98, right? You may.

Pops up for two episodes on Third Watch, a couple episodes of Law & Order Special Victims Unit. By the way, this episode of the watch brought to you by IMDB.com. Heat note. Now, it pops up his Milton Trammel in damages, which is where I think I first noticed him. Okay. A little bit of Good Wife, a little bit of

Borwalk Empire. Goes Pro in 14. Yeah. With True Detective Season 1. Ghost Pro. I liked him on Boardwalk Empire, actually. Yeah, and then since his 2014 on True Detective, he's been in the Nick, he's been in the following. He's been in Hannibal. He's been on Billions.

He plays Axe's lawyer on Billions. And then he did this run where he was the judge and night of. He's on Barry, and he was the head FBI agent in Waco. So I feel like I'm watching three shows right now that Fleshler's got a role in. By the way, you basically just confirm to me that he lives in Park Slope. They have a co-op open for him. He sublets Costabille's apartment? I think he must when he's filming.

I mean, these are, well, Barry. Do you think that there should be a limit on how many shows any one actor can be on at any given time for the sake of suspension of disbelief? I think this is what Congress just argued in regards to minor league baseball players. They're like the fairness of America's pastime act is you can't get paid more than like a barrel. a crackerjack in 10 bucks an hour. That's good. I'm going to say no. There shouldn't be a federally mandated

law against actors working. Are you having trouble? This seems more like a cry for help from you. You can't keep track. It's not cool if the Chechnine mobster is also an FBI agent in Waco. Well, what about... And then he's also Bobby Axe Axelrod's lawyer

and billions at the same time. I'm going to suggest a different way for you to look at it. I think you should steer into this mental skid of yours. I think you should embrace it. Okay. You know there's... So you want me to come up with a central unifying theory

of how Glenn Fleshler ties together the universe? No, I'm saying he's only ever playing one part. Richard Belser played Detective John Munch across nine television shows. Thus establishing... So you think he's still Aeryl Childress

in all of these shows? You choose the role, but he is. Because what I'm saying is that that proved definitively that 30 Rock existed in the same universe as homicide life on the street. Right. So you do this.

Well, who is... Who had the two? tweet the other day about whether or not, because if there is, somebody had it something where it was like, if the what are those meme exists within the Black Panther universe, does that mean that the memes from our reality exist in MCU? So, okay, so are there any MCU dependent memes that are thus rendered, like, you need, you need the cosmic cube to understand that. But that would actually be wrong because the people in MCU are theoretically famous. Right?

But there is no... Oh, so there would be meme... Oh, I see what you're saying. So there would be Thor memes. There's no sycovia here. Wait, what? Well, yeah, because Ultron fucking lifted it out of the earth and threw it back down again.

There's no sycovia anywhere. Maybe Fleschler is the key to all of it. Maybe he can explain this. He's the last infinity stone. Last point on Barry, before we venture two off of the reservation. Yeah. One of the reasons I'm optimistic about the show, not just the good performances and Bill Hater and Alecberg

and the pedigree of it, it's nice to see a comedy that is trying to do, trying to thread this needle. Yeah. The show, one of the things that is in its favor, you'll see, you'll see audiences that moves forward is that it's serialized. It's very much like cliffhanger into the next thing,

which is better choice, I think, than he's just hanging out in L.A. and a new mission comes up. It's all connected because, of course, it would be. I like that it is, we live in a world where a show about a Bill Hader character stumbling into an acting class in North Hollywood could get a two-season order at Netflix.

Yeah. minus the hitman component. Yeah. So while the hitman thing, you know, your mileage may vary on it, I like that they are trying something ambitious

with a serialized action dramatic element in a half hour 2018 comedy. So we'll see. We'll revisit. Okay, let's talk a little bit about the other show that debuted last night.

Yeah. Trust, which is FX's mini series. What a time to be a Getty, you know? Sort of. Well, it's always a good time to be a Getty,

I think, because you're just kicked. Well, as we've learned, there are ups and downs to being a, Getty? I guess so. That's probably pretty true.

So this covers familiar territory because it's covering the same. If there were two projects in 2019 based on the Ryan family legacy, would you be like, what a great time for me and my family? Because there's a TV show and a movie about these ill things that happen to my family? I guess so. Like, I actually, yeah, I can't really speak to like what the Getty fortune is at right now. What is the, what would be the inciting incident of the Ryan family story that would be like the Getty grandson

and heir being kidnapped by Italian Coke lords. What is the just slightly skewed art museum Philadelphia version of this? I don't know. Is it the time like I got my cleats stolen in baseball practice?

You tell me, screenwriter. Fairmouth Sports Association still owes me $45 for those. What's that? FX just gave that a three-season order. Yeah, exactly. Amazing.

So trust it has one of those strange development situations where it was probably the crown jewel of what FX was going to roll out alongside Atlanta for this season. They're excited. For this time period. And I never quite understand how when you have like such a niche story, two suitable, really wise companies will be like, I don't care.

Let's just push forward with it. Like I guess it's just a matter of nobody blinking. It's just deep impact in Armageddon all over again. It's the same movie as all the money. It's the same story as all the money in the world. which didn't do very well, but did Carter some Oscar nominations. Yes, and the movie version famously replaced Kevin Spacey at the last minute with Christopher Plummer. The TV version famously replaced Kevin Spacey with Donald Sutherland.

So Spacey got cut out of it. Am I correct about that? I think you got that wrong. It starts Donald Sutherland, Brendan Frazier, and in later episodes Hillary Swank. This felt like when they say that they don't make movies like they did in the 90s, this felt like very 90s to me. As a movie or a TV show? As a movie. As a TV show.

I mean, like, I reminded you of a 90s movie or a 90s movie? Yeah, it had a kind of, Danny Boyle directed all these episodes and it had a feel of... If you direct all of them, I wasn't sure about that. I'm not sure if he'd actually do it,

but I'm pretty sure he did. I want to know because that's going to, my opinion about the show may change as we move on. I'm going to look it up while you talk. But it has a certain dark sense of humor, a visual sight gag sense of humor, and an acidity that I associate with a couple of like,

lesser known 90s, kind of caper movies. Are you doing two days in a valley again? No, I was thinking more like a simple plan, like the John Cusack, Billy Bob Thornton movie. I really like that movie. And I think that was Scott Frank, wasn't it? Or Scott Burns.

Yeah, but it was Sam Ramey directed that. Right. Exactly. That kind of like slightly more pop version of Cohen Brothers vibe. And Danny Boyle trucked in that in the 90s. You know, like after train spotting, like he was a life less ordinary kind of thing. Yeah, and interestingly enough, the person who wrote trust is Simon Beaufort.

You can say that there are almost three Danny Boyles. There's John Hodge, Danny Boyle, which is this really, really, really, really dark, not a very high opinion of humanity kind of storytelling. That's train spotting. That's a shallow grave. Then there's Alex Garland, Danny Boyle, which is sunshine and the beach. And 28 days later. 28 days later, and that has an almost spiritual element to it, and it usually has a lot of twists.

And then there's Simon Beaufort, like Danny Boyle, and that's 127 hours and slumdog and trust, historically rooted, a little bit more. Somewhat more about the triumph of the human spirit. More open-hearted and open-hearted. I'd be curious to see where the triumph comes out of this story, because for the most part, it's about disgusting rich people,

and their harems. They have harems, yeah. First of all, what, I just need to know, I think the biggest question all of us have, how do you feel at this stage of your life about having, just retaining the services of an erudite gentleman to read you soft core literary porn? That's my favorite part, von Blanc. Just to get you. Yeah. Okay. I did a little research live on air.

Danny Boyle directed at least the first three. Okay. Which is great news. I was not looking forward to watching this show. I felt not only was it a little bit, you know, it's strange, much like that OJ thing a few years ago, where actually both projects ended up succeeding on their own merits, a little bit fatigued at the thought of the same type of story again. But more than that, after this run of history karaoke that we've been lambasting on the podcast

from the Looming Tower to Waco shows that sort of seem to be just mining the... They're movies of the week. Yeah, they're mining the IP of IRL. for, I'm just off the dome today, for, you know, an easy access to viewers, basically, to base, you know, there's no onboarding needed, like we were talking about with a pilot, usually, because at least the broad strokes of history are either well known or easily Googledable. So I sat down with zero expectations, and I got to tell you, I really enjoyed it. I mean, it's really well done. It's really well done. Now, just to provide a counterpoint, my wife didn't like it.

Because, for the reasons you said, she's had no interest in seeing disgusting rich people behave in disgusting ways. That's fair. What I really appreciated about it was something you alluded to a moment ago, which is it's pretty funny. And it's pretty cock-eyed and like a little bit to the side of the story it's telling. Danny Boyle directs the hell out of it. And to your point about there being multiple Danny Boyles. And it looks like a cost of billion dollars. I mean, the the depth in which they recreate the Getty, uh,

Sutton Place, the mansion in England. And all the sort of just absolutely almost garish amounts of wealth that he has accumulated, and all the art that he's been buying from, you know, he's raiding the National Museum for antiquities. Yeah, for antiquities, yeah. There is a element to the direction that reminded me of something that we loved about the Nick, which is where the curiosity of the director outpaces the curiosity of the script, which, and I'll praise the script in other places for sure. but we would talk about how in the nick

when the scene would be boilerplate or exposition or purely expository Stephen Soderberg would take his camera and spin it around the room and all of a sudden the world would be bigger. There are moments in this when contrary to some criticism of Danny Boyle and some of his other movies that he seemed sort of ADD that he just moves the camera to move the camera

there are these visual little jolt of electricity many of which involve bird slaughter because a goose gets got And then there's a lot of plucking at one point, too. To my mind, it was not too on the nose about captive animals or nature being trampled. It was just surprising to keep you, it was off kilter. There were moments in it where I was a little bit lost because there are a lot of people that kind of look alike who all have the same grievances against Donald Sutherland. But I thought there were some nice grace notes that, again, elevated what could have been boilerplate aspects of a script meant to humanize someone because there aren't that many human characters so far.

Notably, the cook who introduces herself as cook. By the way, you should just be like, hey, I'm podcast. Or whatever. But also the scene with the butler at the finale, at the near the end of the episode, is really interesting, well-played. Yes. And Sutherland, one of our great actors,

struggling sometimes with what I believe to be, some pretty blocky or British phrasing. There's a scene where he's very angry, and then the leader of his harem says, you're grieving, that all the dialogue, all his monologue, that speech that he gives. It just didn't make sense coming out of his mouth.

Yeah, it's a little on the nose. They open it up with King Lear as a framing device for the entire show. And I think that that is a bit on the nose. But this is an interesting conversation that we can have as we go through the season a little bit because I think I'm going to stick with it. I don't know. Yeah, I got to tell you, I just enjoyed it. I did the thing that I do that I can now say honestly because people know this.

When I fired it up, I was like, it's going to be 57. it's going to be 57. It was like, 108. 102, 104. And I was like, oh, God. Didn't notice. Didn't second screen it, guys. And also, I think that it's an interesting episode

because it's largely a character study of Getty, of Sutherland. They spend a lot of time with him doing things to himself. Many sexual things. Yeah. And also just getting into his psychology. And I think future episodes each have like a very different setup and vibe. So by all accounts, the next episode is the Brendan Fraser episode,

and it has, it's got a real energy that the first one doesn't. I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, we didn't go ahead on this one. I think that this is an interesting case of how this is going to play over week to week because when you watch this, if you were to watch three of these,

although that would be like four hours of your life, if you were to watch three of these, you might have a different opinion about how it than if it was going out piecemeal like it is. Yeah, I agree. The Brendan Fraser Renaissance was not something I was necessarily expecting or checking for. It started with our friend Zach Barron

wrote an absolutely terrific profile of him in GQ that I recommend everyone checking out really humanizes him. He's an actor I never really thought much about. Generationally, he wasn't my George of the Jungle. Every generation gets the one they deserve. But I didn't really see the mummy movies. I didn't quite get it.

When he shows up very briefly in this premiere, I imagine that has some impact. for people who used to see him in one role and hadn't seen him in a while, just because he looks older and bigger. Sure. And again, by all accounts, he's quite good going forward. For me, it was just, it was almost a Glenn Fleshler-esque moment

and that it took me out of it, you know? But where do you stand on him? I mean, I can't wait to see these future episodes. I mean, there's a real, like, he has, like, a certain gravity now that I don't think that we knew that he had. And so it's really exciting to see him. I, my experience with him is largely, like,

Encino Man and stuff like that. Just the last thing. If you were on the fence about trust, guys, if you watched it, I would just say maybe the rest of the season doesn't live up to this. But the way the episode ended with young Paul tripping in all senses through the streets of Rome and then having that interaction with the beautiful woman asking to kiss her and then basically bowing at a 2,000-year-old fountain

and getting kidnapped, yeah. Putting the hood on his own head was so... That's what I like in TV, man. Like, not those specifics, although they're pretty good. But that's the moment when the show, to me, kind of elevated. Yeah. And it was odd. I felt the same way about when the payoff for the Teresa invitation happens.

And the way that the different girlfriends react, and I really love the Penelope character. I'm really excited to keep watching the show. I'm really surprised. We should not have doubted. Anna Zanzler is the person who played Penelope. We should not have doubted that FX would be coming at this a little bit sideways. Yeah. It wouldn't just be doing movie the week here.

It's good. It reminds me a little bit of the fear. that I had when Fargo first started where I'm like, this is different. And I believe, and we can talk about this as we go forward, there is a plan for this to continue for three or four seasons, I think about different rich families? I don't know, not the Gettys. I had no idea.

But yeah, the reason why this is called... The Ryans? I'm setting you up here. They just called trust colon, Ragnarok. I'm sorry, I don't remember the full title. But it is, yeah, there's something anthology... The assassination of Chris Ryan's Little League career. You did that to yourself.

We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors, and we will be talking with Dave Costable from billions. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Microsoft Teams, your hub for teamwork in Office 365 with so much to look after. Wouldn't it be great if there was just one place to look? Teams is that single workspace where you can work, share, and connect with you people in your work life. Teams brings together your chats, meetings, files, and apps all in one place.

Take teamwork where you work with apps for mobile and desktop. So whether you're sprinting towards a deadline or sharing your next big idea, teams can help you and your team achieve even more. Microsoft Teams and Office 365, visit office.com slash teams to learn more. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the homies at Hotel Tonight. Again, I cannot tell you how much I've been loving Hotel Tonight. Hotel Tonight helps you book amazing deals at great hotels. And even though the name's Hotel Tonight, you can actually book up to 100 days in advance in top destinations.

And up to a week in advance everywhere else. They work with cool, top-rated. hotels and don't feature those long, endless lists of options you have to scroll through. Instead, they show you a select list of the best deals at the best hotels at any given time. So start scoring amazing deals at incredible hotels. Download the Hotel Tonight app now. I'm so excited to be joined by David Costaville. Wags from billions.

Maybe, I think, if we had to look at the data, the most beloved fictional character at the ringer, by a long shot, I actually think. Yeah. I mean, and it was a slow burn, but sometime around mid-season 1, and definitely throughout season 2, you became something of an icon for our staff. So this is actually a pretty big deal for us. Nice. I love it. Well, season 3 is going to really fuck you up because it's even, the show is growing and it's getting better. And, you know, there is a solidity to what, how and where wags fits.

Does it translate, when you say there's a solidity to what you're doing and the show is growing, does that, translate behind the camera or in production. Do you feel that when you're, you guys all know what you're doing? How does that work out? It's just, it's one of those things where the writers and the way that we're just telling the story is, it's, it's just jelling. And you know in the beginning, and this is true for most shows, but you just are trying to find the exact voice. Yeah. And the, the, the, the genre that they're, somebody we were talking about it last night and somebody was saying that it was, it was Elvis Mitchell who was saying it's like a screwball drama. And, and, you know, And that is a particularly weird and odd world.

How do you get it just in the right pocket? And it's like music. When you find that once you get in the pocket, you get in the pocket and you're just in it. And the writers have done that. And now as it's sometimes like I think even in the second season, you had to wait until you saw it. And then you're like, oh, I see. With the music and all of the pieces together that I get it. Like this is a solid, clear.

We're telling the right story. We're all telling the same story. But now while we're doing it in season three, you really feel like, oh, no, while you're doing it, you're like, yeah, the first episode, and this is going to go up Monday, so people have seen the first episode of season three. And I felt like, you know, it's interesting.

I was watching another show that was just starting at second season. It was actually sneaky Pete, which I really, really enjoy sneaky Pete. But it was clear that they had, like, a lot of plot they had to get through. And it was the way that they started their second season, in comparison to say what you guys are doing three, where I just feel like you guys are right out of the blocks so fast, where it's just like, yeah, you know what Billions is, right?

But at this point, there's so many reference points that are thrown around in the dialogue, and you guys get to have a lot of fun, probably, and I was wondering whether or not you guys get any input with that, but it's pretty rare. It's just like, Brian and David. Yeah, it's pretty much Brian and David. Yeah, it's like, say the Goodfell's line the way I tell you.

Kind of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But when you guys are on set or you're thinking about your performances, do you gauge your performance in terms of reference points? Like, I feel like I'm trying to do something that, wouldn't be out of place and say like the firm in the 90s or what's the vibe we're going through? I mean, you definitely do talk about that. You know, those guys love movies and they love being able to play with the characters moving in and out of, you know, not being in those worlds, but feeling like they can reference them with great ease and sort of slip into it and slip out of it.

And, you know, that is fun. And it's sort of, for people who are giant movie buffs, it's sort of like a fun Easter egg. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I know that reference. But also those guys just think in those terms. They really love those movies. And that the dialogue isn't driven by that, but it is, it's sort of like they're, it's like a parallel course. They're both, they're just in two lanes that are going forward.

I think that one of my favorite parts of the premiere of the third season is when you talk to Asia about the top, the top gun reference. And it's like, yeah, we all know that not only is it showing up in the show, but the characters in the show know it's showing up in the show. It's a great moment. You know, I just found out because I was listening to Brian is on Bill Simmons's pod on Friday. And I didn't know that you guys went to school together. Yeah, we went to college together. So did you, were you guys friends from first day, freshman year? When did you mean? No, I mean, he was the BMOC on campus because he had, he had discovered while we were there, he discovered Tracy Chapman, and then he was her manager and producer and produced her first album. So were you guys at NYU? Where were you guys? No, a Tufts. A Tufts. Okay. And then I went back and then after school I had gone to NYU for my graduate degree. Okay. So I knew him.

I think we had taken one class together, but you would sort of see him on campus and be like, oh, that guy. Yeah. He's the one. But then, and we weren't really, you know, we were friendly, but we weren't real friends and we didn't, we didn't maintain until Brian has always sort of said that he was, he felt like if he had watched my career and sort of watched what I was doing over time and felt for him. him that there was justice in the world if I was able to succeed. And if I wasn't able to succeed, that I was going to be one of the barometers of being like, there is actually no justice. There's no justice in this world. Which is nice. I mean, I was like, well, and I don't think that that's really the way it works, but it was kind. And then subsequently then called me years later and was

like, hey, we wrote this movie, Solitary Man, and we want you to be in it. And they were directing together. And it was great. And they are, they're incredibly loyal friends. And there. And it's very fun to be able to have an ongoing long dialogue with artists who are making something and trying to make something new. And they also respond to me. Like Wags was initially conceived was totally different. I was going to be a strong, silent, Upper East Side wasp that that is like the man behind the man that you, and that on some level, Damien's character was going to be the wild, you know. And you had to have to rein him in. Yeah. And then I would always be there to sort of hold him back or correct the mistakes that he made.

And then as we shot it, they were like, no, we've got to do the opposite. And so most of the shit that I did in the pilot was cut. And then. Yeah, I was rewatching the pilot the other day. Yeah. Just really not there. Clean shaven. None of the twirley mustache.

So then as we were reconceiving it, they were just, they knew that inside me. Because I also wasn't, I had never been cast as that guy. No one would ever cast me as that guy. Yeah. And they just knew inside that I had. had all the rage necessary, which I do. And so it was a great release, and they were just like, go. And they stood behind me and they just kept pushing me harder and just like, go further, go, go, go.

And it was incredibly fun to, it's an incredibly fun thing to do and to play. And then they write, they write accordingly and move the character. So you had input into Wags' development. In the very beginning, yeah. And I think that, you know, like even the mustache thing, like I had come to them. And I was like, what if I have a twirly mustache? And they were like, they're like, let's see. And I did it.

And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, he's like a guy. It does, you do have to, you do have to definitely pull on it for a while. It's definitely. Showtime should sell wags mustache pomade or something. Why not? You got to get points on that. Come on showtime.

Figure it out. I mean, they're willing to sell lots of other wags. They've got the cutout, right? They got the t-shirt. You have a t-shirt for yourself? What would wags do t-shirt? You guys are behind. I don't know what's happening.

We got to get the merch in here. You got to get that merch. Is there a Wags moment that you get stopped on the street? Or what's the sort of highest? I do. I think the sushi thing is that responds to a lot of people. And has it ever happened at a sushi restaurant? That I've done that?

That I've been, that someone did that to me. Or somebody did, no, I've never experienced that. Okay. Because it feels like at this point now. Maybe I should go to more sushi restaurants. You got to go to Sugarfish. Just go up to street and just say, hey. Come here.

Because I was wondering now at this point, especially after the second season, that you get such a huge amount of home run lines and home run parts. Like, is there a point where you're, you actually ever say to them like, we should probably. No way. There's never any. You don't want to hit the brakes at all. No way.

Okay. So what is it character? What's the fun of that? No. I don't. It's like people that like, they want to see him break good. You're like that, no way. You just want to see that.

And if that guy ever like at the end where, you know, he turns into a nice guy. Oh my God. That's the thing is because I think that the, aside from the lines, the mustache, everything, the thing I like so much about, about Wags is that he's kind of like

this Virgil character who is guiding other characters through hell. You get to go to all the cool places. You know, you get to go to the Turkish bats in the beginning of the third season. You know, and it makes it that much more of a New York show because you just feel like you're out and about.

And you live in New York? I do, yeah. So is this the side of New York that you've never seen, that you kind of knew some of those places? Yeah, when you get to some of those high-flying spots, you're like, I have never had the entrance card to this. This is the golden ticket where you really get to go into the bowels of New York and see some really awesome shit. Yeah. And it's really, I mean, I am not a multi-millionaire, so, or a hundred millionaires as Wags is. But it's when you get to go and hang out at some of these places, it's just really exquisite.

Like, you know, Wags lives at the Pierre Hotel. Your hotel is really lovely. And then when we were shooting on the 32nd floor of Wags's house, Wags's apartment, it was awesome. Did you ask if you could like stay over for research purposes? I kind of wanted to. I wanted to be like, what if Wags stays here tonight? What if Wags doesn't leave the hotel? By Wags, I mean me.

I read an interview you did about Breaking Bad actually with time, I think. And you were talking about how when you arrived at Gail's apartment on the set for Gail's apartment that there were details in the production design that, unlocked to the character for you. And I know we're joking about the mustache, but as the Wax character developed throughout the writing of probably season one, I would imagine, were there details about his character, like a small thing that, you know, I wouldn't have known about by just watching that you were like, that's this guy? I mean, there were things because it was a development and because it was a real collaboration between the way that, because they had conceived it one way and then started conceiving in another, there was an opportunity for us to

talk about it. So like, the mustache is a great example where I was like, it is a no thing. He's knowingly doing this. He's like, I'm, I am, it is a, it's a strategy, right? He's, he is, he is, it's strategizing about being a bad guy. Yeah. And there's, it's, it's, it's not that he's, he is, he walks the line between being, you know, being sort of drunk with this aspect of who he is. Sometimes literally, yeah, but also using it to his advantage and using it knowingly to his advantage. There's a great, that scene in the, in the strip club where they go, where they go, and he pulls a fast one. on these guys and you're like, do you really think I'm that stupid?

I'm just, you know, I always said, when we always, when we talk about like, when we talk about when you reach the limit, when, if the, if you, if someone comes up with something and you'd be like, well, I'm not a fucking animal. Like the answer is like, would you do that? And you're like, I'm not an animal. What are you, are you an idiot? You know, he is a sophisticated human being. He's an intelligent person.

He's an educated person. And you want that from him. And so something like even the pierre where I had pitched to them, I was like, I think that he lives at the pierre. because there is, you know, part of that backstory is, has not even been revealed to the audience. Like when you see who his parents are, when you haven't really seen any part of his family life. Sure. And on some level, it's better, right?

You don't want to. But when it is eventually revealed what that is and who those people are, it will also be even more like, oh, my God. So I had pitched to them, he lives at the Pierre. And then David Levine was like, oh, no, he had lived there. between his first and his second marriage and then kept the apartment between his second and third marriage. And I was like, that's genius. So it's so much more detailed and so much more than, then for me, that, just the idea of that really begins to deepen and expand and help you detail the way you see the world, the way he goes through life, the way he encounters

people, the way he. So even if you never, even if we never had shot that scene in Pierre, even and just knowing that as a, it's enough just as a single detail to be like that really expands who this person could be. Sure. And I think that Wags with two X's is completely different than Wags who's never been able to know love. You know what I mean? You know, I was curious because you're talking so much about this being part of this show, even, you know, from in some ways, since your college days.

But you've been a part of so many excellent. excellent projects and often jumping in midstream. How hard is that? How hard is it to show up on set of the good wife or set of the office and you're just like, okay, like, I mean, obviously there's different levels of like your guest starring run, right? But even for something like Breaking Bad, which was up and running and you come in and you're this huge, subtly, huge agent of change in that show, how do you find your way into the material when it's kind of like up and running like that?

I mean, that show, that show was, I was already a fan of that show. I had watched a good friend of mine was one of the writer-producers on that show. His name is Sam Catlin. And he runs, he's the show in an hour preacher. Yeah. So I had watched from the beginning because he was involved in it and was incredible and I was an enormous fan. So when I audition for it, the, the audition thing was the piece where I read the Whitman, I recite the Whitman poem to him.

And it was so clear to me who that person was. And the writing is so good. that on some level there wasn't, I didn't even, I was like, well, I know exactly who this person. Yeah. I know exactly how he fits in here, even though I don't know what the end game of where he's going. And I think on some level they did, which they didn't tell me. Yeah. Until later.

And then Vince came up to me, he's like, you know, we're going to kill you. And I was like, oh, no, shit. I like this TV. I want to be on this TV show. I don't want to die. But, you know, drugs don't pay. So, or they do until they really pay. So it was, you know, it is a cliche, but part of it because it's so true is that the writing really guided you.

So it was really very easy. And once you get onto those sets, you do have to kind of figure out how it all works. Like what's the style and what is the, what is the vibe on set? Like who, who, how does it run? And you really have to be, you have to allow yourself to be very flexible about, okay, you may have an idea about what this was or how it's going to work. And when you get there, you've got to just be like, okay, what are we going to do? How does this, how does this particular world run? And you just have to pay it, you have to really pay attention.

Like, for instance, I went on the wire. It was in the fifth season of the wire. And the first day, we had like a four page scene. It was all like journalists to speak. And we were shooting this long, long, wide shot from miles away. And I had to do all of this stuff that I was like, could barely get it out. I was like, because it was difficult. and I didn't know the world and hadn't watched that show,

which I was very glad I hadn't because I would have been way too intimidated to actually speak while I was there. So then the script supervisor came up and she was like, so in the third page, you changed this to that, and we're going to have to reshoot the scene. And I was like, I changed this to that and you're a mile, you're miles away from me. We're all like tiny little specks on the screen and I changed this to that.

And I was like, which this and which that and which is it? And I was like, and that's how you have to learn the world, that the words that David was writing are clear, and they were just like, it is set. There is no deviation. Don't deviate. And on that level, then you learn the culture of how to be there, right? Yeah.

And that's hard. If you're walking in and you're like, oh, my God, oh, my God, which is it, is it this or is it that? Is it this or is it that? So were you more, so with Breaking Bad, it sounds like you were almost less nervous because you had seen the show? No, it was more nervous than I had seen the show.

that I had seen the show. I was like totally cocky when I hadn't seen The Wire. And I walked in and was like, what the fuck is this? Are you serious? And then I started watching the wire as I was doing it and got like progressively more and more anxious during as the season went along. I was like, oh my God, this is one of the greatest television shows ever created. And I can't believe that I'm part of it. Is there something that is a consistent theme, whether it's Vince or David or Brian that you're working with on these incredible projects that these showrunners or these shows having.

common. I think, you know, I think in terms of casting, I think I've always described myself as as like side of the pot actor. Like, you know, when you make a sauce that the stuff that stays on the side is the, as the water evaporates from the sauce. Yeah. Like if you look in the middle of the sauce, you know what you're going to get and you're like, oh, I like that sauce. I'll have a light of that. But then if you look on the crusty sort of side that's sort of more concentrated and stranger and you're like, I don't know if I like that. I'm more on the side of the pot guy. So if you scrape me off the side, you're going to get something unusual. I have my own sort of way of looking at the world, and I want to maintain that, and I want to bring that to what I'm doing. And it's often to my

own detriment, you know, I'll get a script and I'll read it, and I'm like, well, I know what they want. I'm not going to do that. And you're like, but why wouldn't you just do it? Is there any time you remember getting a script that said that, and you were like, later on, you were kicking yourself, for not going. No, no. Because I'm just too much of an asshole. So I'm just like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to deviate from it. And when I have deviated from it, I've screwed myself.

Yeah. Like you get there and you're just like, you're not happy and you don't want to do this. And because you didn't, because you weren't as fully authentic as you want to be. Like I am my own person and I'm just like, I want to be that on screen as fully as I can be. Because then I'm going to actually bring life to what these guys wrote. And I think, you know, not to pat myself on the back, but I feel like that is, if there is a common thread between those guys, they like that. They want that and they are, they are each one of those people also their own person in a very distinct way. And their voice is very distinct. And I want to be able to engage with people who are as deeply authentic as they are. And they all have something to say really deeply. And I think it's. Different vibes? Different, like,

Oh, yeah, yeah, they're all totally different. Like how so? I mean, David is incredibly serious guy. And Vince is, they're all really nice people, but it's just a different, it's just a all totally different world. And when you find, so you were kind of alluding to this,

but obviously your character, Gail meets his demise, and one of probably the best episodes of television I've ever seen, at least not the 21st century. I mean, I mean, full measure. The half measure's full measure run is, I would put that up against most movies, I think.

Well, even the end, even Osumendius. Even the penalty. I actually, so I actually have a personal preference for that end of three beginning of four run, like box cutter two. I think that sometimes. Well,

you're really going into the deep dive with titles. Well, I just lost, Andy and I were just talking about it, but I actually think that sometimes shows become aware of their own finality towards the end. And even though Ozzie Manu's is obviously like just phenomenal. There's something about it being in, that's like peak LeBron.

That's like peak, Ken Griffey Jr. or something. It's like you're watching an athlete that doesn't, doesn't have an end yet. Yeah. So you're kind of, and when that happens when Gail, Gail dies, you know, it changes Jesse. It changes Walt, it changes, Gus, it changes Mike.

And I was wondering if you remember anything special about shooting that episode or reading that script for the first time or knowing if you, even if then you knew you were making something incredibly special like that. Yeah, I mean, I loved playing that character. I loved him. I just, I felt so, I felt so connected to him emotionally. and I felt like the sacrifice that Vince was going to, that the writers were going to do to kill someone like that is so strong.

It's so costly. You know, it costs them so much to have created something really lovely and then really brutalize your audience by taking them away. And that was, you knew that was happening. Also, in that, in that episode, that's the episode where I sing for the first time. So Vince had asked Sam if I had any talent. And he was like, does he have any talent? Can he do anything?

And Sam, can he, yeah, can he do anything? So he said, so Sam was like, yeah, well, he can sing. What if it was like, he can shoot three-pointers? They would have had to do that. They would have been like, that's what Gail can do. He's like, well, no, but he's an incredible three-point. He's got incredible range on the court. So they knew, so then they just gave me the tune.

And I, they didn't know I spoke some Italian, which I do. And I am a trained singer, so I could say. the tune and it was an incredibly complicated song and it is brutal to to learn because it's a powder song because it was in an in the neapolitan dialect which is a very difficult dialect we couldn't find they had to call the embassy to get the translation of the tune it was a song from the 40s um so there were some recordings of it obviously there was the recording we sang to and it was it was great and it was just like so you also knew that inside of this inside of this great loss that you had to do you also had to have this great celebration and the celebration of music and song in his life and for who he was

and that I loved I loved the tune and I loved how it set set it up and it's interesting because then the second tune is the one that gets more play sure yeah yeah yeah but and people forget about the first tune I really love it was it was it harder to do the the singing or the speech in the wire the first day uh well the the the preparation with them both are very painful probably this singing because it has to sort of be effort it has to make effortless yeah all right well I want to ask you a little bit

more about season three from billions not having too much away after Wags had such a I thought you know like very tumultuous breakthrough kind of like you know season two it does seem like at least from the first episode like you're going to get to do some stuff with Asia

yeah and I was curious if you could tell me a little bit about working with them and a little bit about the fun of being on a show for this long seems like you get to pair off with different people. And that's like, that's the real fun for me when something gets to season three. And it's like, oh, yeah, let's get these two together and have them go do something. So what can we kind of generally expect from season three? You will get some, you'll get some wags in Asia, wags and Taylor stuff, which is very fun.

And it's interesting to, he doesn't really take them under his wing, but he does give them a fuller experience of the world. And in like in that first episode where you see he takes them to the baths. Yeah. The Easter promises. Yeah. And it's fun. So we got to do stuff like that and I got to know Asia and it's really they're a very interesting person and they're a very interesting character in the show.

And I think it's a really, not only groundbreaking, but perfectly set for the world that we're making. And that on some level there is, you know, the proof is always in the pudding for it. whoever's working. Like if you bring it and you you you can do the job well, like you are accepted. And if you can't do the job well, you're fucked. Get the fuck out of my face. And so there is no, for WAGS, he's just like, great, you're in charge now. Yeah. Let's fucking do it. Let's go. And I like it. I like it would have been easy to be like wags. Just super suspicious of Taylor. And it's like, no, it's just like, let's rock. What fucking fun is that? There's no fun in that. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. So you get to see there's there's some slight openings that both of us

offer each other and it's good. You're smiling. I like this. I can't wait. All right. David Coswell, thank you so much for coming by to The Watch. Check out Billions every Sunday on Showtime. Boom. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Barry. As a reminder, the new HBO comedy series Barry premiered on Sunday,

March 25 at 1030 from executive producers Bill Hater and Silicon Valley's Alec Berg, the new HBO comedy star is Hater as a hitman who discovers a new passion for acting while on a job in Los Angeles. Don't forget to check it out.