The Watch - Don’t Forget About ‘Hacks.’ Plus, ‘We Own This City’ Ep. 3, and Lewis Pullman of ‘Outer Range’

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the return of ‘Hacks’ for its second season, and why it’s a show you should make time for despite the current deluge of television (1:00). Then, they talk about the third episode of ‘We Own This City’ (28:28) before Chris is joined by Lewis Pullman, who plays Rhett on ‘Outer Range,’ to talk about the show's season finale (49:13). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Lewis Pullman Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward

and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com

and joining me on the other line. He just got his shit snuffed by Drew Holiday. It's Andy Greenwald. Sports and culture. You're doing sports and culture today? Sometimes I feel weird cursing so early in a podcast. podcast. But you know what? Sometimes we just got to let it ride. Maybe I'll redo that. Andy, it's beautiful to see you here on a Thursday. I always feel a little bit more chelaxed on

Thursdays because on Mondays, I know you're really regimented. You want to get right into Better Call Saul. None of that banter. None of that. What did you have for lunch? I love I'm the bad guy. What's going on with you stuff? But we can do that today. We have a ton of stuff to get to, though. So just to set the table, we're doing first two episodes of hacks today. We'll do a top chef check-in. We're just going to like shout at each other. about We Own the City briefly. I remember Jamie Hector was on the show on Monday. That was a really fun chat with him about,

mostly about episode three and about his character, Sean Suter, from We Own the City. And then in the second half of the show, I talked to Lewis Pullman, who plays Rhett on Outer Range, which concluded last week. And that's a spoilery conversation.

So I recommend it for people who have watched all of Outer Range. And it was fun to talk to him about it. It was fun to talk to him about going into the show and the preconceived notions he had about it and working with Josh Brolin and everything. So that is the second half. And we might hit some other things here and there.

Greenwald, how are you doing? I got to say, I am feeling guilty. I have not watched a frame of Outer Range. I really want to watch that show. That has been the casualty of this time. I think you would like it. I think you would like it. Yeah.

And as a dude who I, so there are things that I feel like I'm a really, really easy date on. You know, it's like if you have, I've talked about this, a lot of rewatchables. If there is a scene where bank robbers are screaming out how much time they have left in the bank, I'll probably watch 25 episodes of your television show. I think that you have a pretty large capacity for Twin Peaks ripoffs.

Like, even if they're bad, I feel like, I'm still feeling it. And Outer Range definitely, you know, did some walking with the fire, if you know what I'm saying. I'm excited. I'm going to catch up. and it's going to be a classic watch moment for all of our listeners where six months from now, I'm like, Chris, this whole show today is going to be about something that nobody else watched six months ago. And that I barely remember.

By the way, speaking of sports and culture, you know how, you know, especially when you get to the playoffs, there's a lot of X's and O's and like head hunting. Like if you're talking about the NBA playoffs, they're like, well, now we know who's a liability on defense. We're going to go right out and we know their moves. We know they like to go left or whatever, right? Yeah. Anecdotally, I have noticed this is starting to happen for us on this podcast. I have a friend who is high up at a studio who I said, are you going to share the show with me?

Even though you know because we're friends, I'm not going to, I probably want to talk about it. And she was like, yeah, this one's for Chris anyway. Like people know what CR like. You know what I mean? I think that you are affecting culture. I think that there are going to be more shows with bank robbers yelling at how much time they have left, so to speak. the Bob's like, Chapex in a room right now and be like,

I know it's not really on brand, but I really need a couple of guys hanging onto their bulletproof vests in this scene of Miss Marvel. I think broadly speaking, I think that's true. I think specifically Bob Chapec is desperately trying to hold onto the copyright

for Mickey Mouse. That's right. By the way, how much is Bob Eiger loving this? Because you know when Iger was like, I retire, but maybe I have to stay for a year and a half. You know he was signaling that like this guy ain't got the range, right? Like it's not going to work.

And then even in his most pathological, pessimistic, sadistic dreams about what would happen to his successor, I can't imagine losing the patent to your franchise character within six months was in the conversation. You know what I mean? Like that wasn't even, that didn't even come up. I'm not above taking advantage of this situation. You know, I've watched Michael Clayton enough times to know when to play my leverage. I do think that we should talk,

Kaya, maybe you and me and Andy, and Shoemaker, David Shoemaker at the ringer, could talk about a brand refresh for the watch. It's just Mickey Mouse. I think it's time. It's fair use. It's out there. It's public.

By the way, is this a hot conversation for us to have? Like, Mickey Mouse doesn't really have value as a character, right? Like, I'm sorry to go at your icons on a Thursday, but like as a corporate logo, come on. He doesn't know, but like, two enterprising guys, Like you and me, we look into what Mickey's original trauma is.

You know, a gritty reimagining of Mickey Mouse. He's this fucking rat. He's been chased his whole life. Like a Sydney Lumet, 70s, like rat on the run thing. Use the text. He's just, he's on a steamboat, right? Uh-huh. Like that's how he, that's his origin story.

A lot of black and white flashbacks. Yeah. Right. It is absolutely in the Sheridan version. And by the way, I love where we ended up here. I think that we are perfect for the grim and gritty reboot. It's called Michael Mouse. Right?

Yeah. He's a steamboat, like a guy working on a steamboat in the 20s, right? Yep. And he is bringing liquor in from Cuba up to New Orleans. Yes. Oh, I love the setting already. Yeah. I love the setting already.

Who gives him his nickname? Like a kindly old gambler, you know? Okay. Yeah. Who are we thinking? like John Goodman? Like who are we casting? Yeah,

Goodman's good. This is live action and anime. This is Roger Ravis. And then who play? Who do you, who are you seeing for Minnie? Um, or is Zendaya,

is, is, is, is, totally, would do that. Yeah. Um,

where do you want to start today? Because we have so many shows, as usual to talk about. Excuse me? We started. Um, why do we start with hacks? Because it's a show that we obviously both loved.

That was a critical, uh, darling when it first premiered. Was that last year? Hacks was out? Yes. It's really a tough, tough to imagine. I have to give Hacks some credit off the top. I have been worried that maybe my frontal lobe has been scooped out by a melon ball, like scoop. Because I just start these shows when they come back, and often now they are coming back to three, sometimes four years after they last aired.

And I'm just like, I don't think I'm smart enough to remember what was happening on this show anymore. Hacks, I did not have that problem. You know, it was like, it picks up absolutely, and we were going to be spoiling the first two episodes of HACS, which are up on HBO Macs. So check the timestamps if you want to skip around to our other conversations today. But Hacks picks up immediately after the action of the first season. And takes it from there.

You know, I think that I wanted to hear from you first on this one, because I know that you were feeling passionately about these first two episodes. I am. And I want to begin where all, it's just a classic beginning. I want to begin with an apology. In December, we had Sam S-Mail on the show, and as always, I get a little twitchy fingers right around the moment we're about to record our top 10 of the year, and I subbed out hacks. I took hacks off my list.

I mean, I think I just didn't have hacks on my top 10, right? Yeah, you can apologize, too, when the conk goes back to you. But this is my moment in the circle to be like, I. Let's make this apology about my failings. Okay. I took hacks off my list, and I replaced it with Loki. and at the time I felt decent about that. No, but now you feel like you really bent the need in, don't you?

I kind of do. I kind of do to Michael Mouse's house because, look, and this is no disrespect to that show, which I really enjoyed. And I feel bad jumping on Michael Waldron, who I'd still love to talk about someday, even though I really didn't like the movie he's credited with writing that came out last week. But Hacks is amazing. And Hax is amazing in precisely the type of way that gets taken for granted these days. And it's not just that I'm apologizing for taking it off my top 10 when it should have been on my top 10 last year. I'm also apologizing for something you guys don't even know about, which is the absolute minimum of brain space its return was taking up for me until I watched the first two episodes of the season two.

It didn't feel essential. And I think this speaks to something that you want to talk about, which is that with all of these giant shows returning and these splashy debuts happening, we are not tuned. into the frequency of TV the way we used to where a rock solid, warmly beloved series returns, and we're like, how great this is, how nice, I'm excited. My calibrations were totally off. And I just want to say, I love the show. I love the show, and I think it's back and it's better than ever. And it made me so, so happy in a way that I was starting to think I couldn't feel anymore, honestly, after these last few weeks of Deluge. Yeah, I mean, I basically wanted to set up this larger conversation while still talking specifically about what makes hacks so successful.

Because I feel my brain getting rewired a little bit. Obviously, we've talked a lot about the impossibility of keeping up with everything that's on right now. But I do think that there's something to be said for the amount of new stuff that we've been experiencing over the last two years. So, you know, today is cancellation nation day in network television. So, like, Mr. Mayor got canceled. I mean, like a variety of stuff is going off the air.

Frank Langela got canceled. Frankly. Was that also announced from the stage at the up front? I'm sorry. I don't believe so. That guy, did you read that guy's like not quite apology statement that he penned himself quite obviously? I did.

I would love to see the notes draft of his former publicist. You know, hey, Frank, thanks for sending below my comments in red. Right. Yeah. Amazing. If you could just put this in a Google Doc, I could just get to suggest mode. Anyway. So it does feel like TV watching in the last couple of years

has been more about embracing or processing or taking on new stuff rather than it is keeping up with the season 3, 4, 5, or whatever. And I understand that there is an entire planet of television watching that goes on. As I was looking through all the lists of cancellations and renewals today, there was plenty of CW shows and plenty of other shows that were coming back for season four, five, six, seven. But largely for the stuff. Sidebar, I felt big CR energy when I read that the Greg Berlante company tried to pitch the

CW on season seven of Supergirl without Supergirl because she didn't want to be on the show anymore. Just like, that is shoot or shoot energy, right? They're like, what if Supergirl was a show about the search for Supergirl because she's not on the show anymore? And they thought they could Galaxy brain that. I respected it. I hope they were like, who says no? And they were like, we actually do it.

Literally all of us. Yeah. There's a way in which you watch new shows. I think that there's also like a level of awareness that goes into it where you're like, okay, every next moment is crucial because it's setting up the tone of this show. It's setting up the long-term plans of this show. I'm sort of developing relationships with characters and often, with few exceptions, your characters are being introduced to you at a very like clear delineated starting point. You know, it's like here's this person's galvanizing kind of catalyst incident

that why you need to watch this show going forward. It's not the case for season three, four, two of other shows. Like, they've kind of established their engine. They've established their look, their feel, their tone. They can deviate from that. But television traditionally is like this, it chugs along. And once it figures out what it does, yes, you can have like Michael Scott gets nicer or, you know, like you can have these adjustments.

But for the most part, it's like, yeah, cheers works. Let's keep doing that. You know what I mean? And that goes all the way down to like hacks and Barry. That is still happening today where I think you realize what the thing is that the show is trying to do and you keep doing it.

But as viewers, you're starting seven shows when you're doing under the banner of heaven and shining girls and five or six other things and then you're like, oh, and in my brain, I'm also trying to remember

what's going on in Barry and what's going on in hacks and where Atlanta is and what this is happening. It does feel like two sides of your brain. And I do wonder whether the returning shows kind of get like, here's a 75 out of 100 for just being you, man,

but like we're going to turn our back on you and go watch the shiny new thing. Well, yeah, and that was reflected in, you were referring back to our end of the year podcast. I mean, there weren't that many returning shows on any of our list. I agree with everything you're saying. And I also think, though, that we're in an interesting moment. I don't think we, as part of the larger television structure, are really doing anyone any favors. You and me, you mean. Yeah, us, but literally everyone who works in television on any side of the ball,

including, you know, especially the people who make it and greenlight it. I don't think we're really long-term doing ourselves any favors by encouraging this pivot to TV as movies. And I don't mean TV as movies in the sense that a lot of hand-wringing articles have been written because Wanda Vision is a TV show that also leads into a movie. I don't mean in the sense of like Obi-1 is a sense. six episode event and that should have been a movie. What I mean is movies are really, really hard to do. Movies are really, really hard to do because you've got one shot to make a

first impression and land the plane. And not many things, as we've learned, should be movies because it's very hard to do that to have both a beginning, a middle, and an end and leave you feeling that kind of, you know, really just exhilaration that movies, and shout out to Sean fantasy for always beating this drum, but only movies really can provide because you've had a complete thought and you've marinated in it and it has an effect on you artistically in a different way. That's really hard to do, always. It's just as hard to do in eight hours or six hours or ten hours as it is in two in the movie theater. Do you know what I mean? And the pivot to thinking that that's a more important way to leave people being like, we're going to set you up and

we're going to knock you down in just one season of television. Yeah, the hype part of it has been working clearly for the marketing department's budgets, but also the award consideration and the attention garnered by the new streaming services. But it's also just moved television as an art form away from the thing that it uniquely does so well, which is what you're speaking to, which is the long-term familiarity, comfort with characters and worlds and vibes that develop over time. And that sounds like a really like Norman Rockwell retro basic thing to be championing. But it's unique to the medium and really special and also kind of hard to do.

And I completely agree with you that we are underrating what value that brings to our lives and to the discourse. Like I was starting to wonder if I was just like, what am I suffering from Anhedonia at the moment? Like I'm not really feeling engaged. I feel impressed and I feel admiration for a lot of things at the moment. And I'm glad we're going to talk a little bit about We Own the City in this podcast because that also makes me feel alive and I adore it. But I was a little concerned. I think the one exception to this recently has been Winning Time because winning time is expressly made to be pleasurable and to be in a world with a bunch of people for a while, even though it is not traditionally a long-running TV show or it doesn't look like one. Hacks is just made me really happy.

And it didn't make me happy. I don't want to make it sound like we're being like, oh, good for you, you know, like participation trophy compared to under the banner of heaven. Because what HACS does should not be dismissed as simple or trad or something, right? Because all of these shows that we're talking about as returning shows that are exemplars of this thing that connects us back to Cheers have interesting and I think relatively new relationships to change and how they develop over time. I think Barry specifically does, and that's maybe caused some people, of us included maybe to be both welcoming that it's welcome that it's back, but also like, wait, how long are we going to have this?

Because it remains on like a breakneck pace towards an inevitable ugly endgame. But hacks like, it blew itself up in one season and is rebuilding itself in the second season. But it's rebuilding itself with just the highest level of confidence and wit and brio and style and fun. And like Paul Downs and Lucia Aniello and Jen Statsky who created the show and who wrote the first two episodes and Lucia directed both of them are really sneaky geniuses, I think. Because, yeah, Gene Smart and Hannah Einbender are just awesome. Like that's something that was established.

But going right back into this world where they always give you the extra joke, where they always give you the extra layer of depth, where they run right at, especially in the second episode, the bur under the saddle. Is this going to happen or not? Yeah, right. With the lingering email of the first season, they don't just run at it. They're like, roll up their sleeves, take out the knife and fork, tuck the napkin into the shirt, because we're going to make a meal out of this opportunity, you know, and we're just going to use it to make the show richer and deeper and better. And these characters more themselves, you know, I just found it so, so satisfying. So I had a very interesting experience the other night that is not about hacks, but I'm going to try and use it to tie it back in.

next. And I was watching a screener for a show. I won't get too much into it, but it was this British show called This Is Going to Hurt. It's a medical drama starring Ben Wishaw. I thought it was amazing. We'll definitely talk about it when it comes on, but it was really a kind of funny moment happened where my wife and I were watching it. And Viby turned to me and was just like, this is really good. And it was like 40 minutes into the episode. She's like, I wonder what it's going to be like about. And she articulated something that I had also sort of been thinking in the back of my head. And meanwhile, a lot of stuff is happening and it's very clear what it's about. But you have this thing now, I think, where you're just like, but what is the big, the larger game that this

show is playing? And like, I hesitate to say, but I think some of the style of storytelling that we've gotten used to, which is very mystery box oriented or end game oriented, makes it so that you sometimes don't really appreciate the journey. You're just like, I got to get, I got to keep burning through cartel members to get the end of Ozark. You know, like we need to kind of keep this train moving towards its end point. And hacks, even though I love the fact that this is essentially a road show now, which is like a

sneaky genius thing to go away from one of the things that was great about the first season was the Vegas element, to put these two main characters on the road, which they do, especially in the second episode, is really, really smart. And it makes the show feel it has like a different color. It has a different tone. People are drinking and eating different foods because they're in diners, because they're in rest stops, they're doing whatever. And it just provides

like this whole new realm of comedy that I think they don't think, I don't think if they just stuck with Debra got a different residency in Vegas and Hannah is helping her or Ava is helping her would have been as fun. You know what I mean? Like I think doing that all over again would have been a little bit repetitive. There is a very specific kind of, and I think this word might be grandiose, but I kind of, having been in writers' rooms, I think it's accurate to a degree, which is bravery. Yeah. I think there's a bravery to committing yourself to an ongoing storytelling project without, you know,

if we get, if Lucia and Paul and Jen come back in the podcast, which I hope they do, and then when we're done asking Jen about why she named an episode of this season, trust the process when she's a Clippers fan, you know, I bet we could say to them, like, you guys have a sense of how you want to end the series, whether it's in, seasons three, four, five, or whatever, they'll probably say yes, because most people like to bat that idea around, especially when, you know, they get tired of ordering lunch in the room. But that's not what they're making the show for. They are not revving cars on the carpet to point them in a certain direction. What they're doing is just pushing past the obstacles that they

themselves have created with the purpose of revealing more about the emotional lives of the characters. And I cannot say enough about this scene in the second episode that I'm, I guess we're, I don't think this is really a spoily, spoil-a-triven show. We don't need to even do it. I'll just say that there's a moment at a diner when the thing that's been lingering comes as subtext becomes text. And it is a masterclass. Like, I just feel like everyone, even if you haven't watched the show, should watch

this scene. Because it is the show, first of all, in that it goes from excruciating to absolutely hilarious to then deeply affecting, all with a minimum of, you know, the camera barely moves and they're just talking at a diner booth. But the fact that, like, they went right at it. And then later, they went at it again. And they didn't do this to then back off and be like, well, this dramatic thing happened. But Deborah's now changed and she's going to hug, you know, her protege who's just been very incredibly cruel to her.

No, she goes bananas in a number of different ways, right? All of which tell us a little bit more about a character that was introduced to it. us as one loud blaring note that we understood. And to turn it back to Barry, that's, it's a very different show, obviously. But again, like, they set up, Bill Hader and Alec Berg set up a character, and I'm not going to spoil it for people who haven't watched this new season yet, they set up a character in a very, very, very, very heavy, complicated series character in a often light and sometimes surreal world.

And they haven't blinked. like almost to the point of making it uncomfortable that this character is a broken monster and not broken monster in like a, you know, Don Draver, yeah, or a low point of prestige TV like looking in a mirror and being like, God, I'm bad, well, I have sex with everyone. It's not that, and that's also wasn't Don Draper.

That's one of the greatest shows of all time. That was a cheap drive-by that I apologize for. But you know what I mean? Like, this is terrible, and they're going to own it one way or another. And I, look, we're going to rave about, before the month is over, I'm sure there's going to be a one and done event series that we're going to be raving about. But I just, it feels really good to be like in the pocket again with people who are doing this kind of stuff. This is quite a hurt thought was just more that like, I think sometimes you can talk yourself out of TV being more than spending time with people you were interested in a world that you're fascinated by.

That is enough for TV. and you can see in Barry and it hacks pretty expert level TV writing where they are slowly but surely being like to sustain this we need to introduce B&C plots that kind of can entertain while Ava and Debra are not in the moment

because like there's not going to be if Ava and Debra for instance stay on the road there's not going to be a ton of like let's all the group get together and talk about sconces the way they do in the first episode and by that same token with Barry you know the this see is a kind of classic season of TV

where all the main characters have now sort of spread out and are doing their own thing. And Barry is kind of this agent of chaos storming into each one of their sort of like their gardens

and being like, no, no, no, no, I still need redemption. So you got to fix this. You got to fix that. You got to fix this. And it's like, you're the only person that needs fixing.

Like all these other characters are kind of trying to do their own thing. No, it's an incredible thing that Barry's ended up in this place where it's not even arguing that every single living person on the show's life would be better if Barry wasn't alive. Yeah.

The show's name Barry. It is a major problem that he's ruining everything for everyone. That alone is pretty interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, is there anything else you wanted to say about HACC specifically? Or did you want to move on? I guess I just really, we can move on. I love it.

I'm so happy it's back. if people were remembering it fondly, you'll be thrilled. Two episodes are going up every week on HBO Max. I think, no, I just, I appreciate what you were saying about people being in different situations and being removed from each other.

And that's always been an issue with hacks because the Paul Down stuff with Jimmy, the manager, and Kayla, it's always been over the phone because they're in L.A. But even that just flowed this season. But I guess what I wanted to say was, again, like,

appreciating the work that's being done on these shows on a granular TV writing level because every decision is a made decision that has consequences. You put them on the, I mean, and to be in rooms and see this stuff get worked out, but then also to see it observed and attended to so that it works is really impressive. So let's do what you said. Like, let's put Deborah and why am I blanking on Hannah and Binder's characters. Because we keep switching. I think I did what I called her Hannah and she names Ava. Oh, right, I started calling her Hannah. Yeah, Ava. When Ava and Deborah go.

go on the road, a great idea. Probably is a great idea in the room, obvious. We'll mix it up. We'll put them in a car together. Like, because season one ends with her wanting to get away from her, nope, not going to happen. They're both vulnerable. But then, okay, what does that mean for everybody else?

We're carrying other cast members. There are other worlds we want to see? How are we going to do that? And how are we going to do in a way that feels true to the show and entertain you to the audience? And when you, I guess all this is to say, I don't think it's just me with a particular, you know, whether it's careerist or just meta interest in how TV. gets made. I think that people, even casual fans are interested in the cause and effect of this.

You know, no, you can't just make one decision and then live with it to the end of the two-hour running time of the movie. They're going to have to reel them back in. And was it worth the journey? And what did you lose in the process? So it's fun to watch that mechanism when it's really going. Was that W. Earl Brown as the, as the head of the agency? Sure was. Sure. So people from Deadwood. They also may know him from choking out Joaquin Phoenix and the master. Yes. Yeah. Big energy. Still a great supporting cast on the show. Lauren Weidman as the mayor of Vegas shows up in the first episode. Yeah. Caitlin Olson is really good. Didn't recognize Mingna Wen without her bounty hunter garb in episode two, but happy to see her. So in the same way they were talking about like there's almost like I would not really call hacks are very traditional in like the it's like mom on CBS way. But like there is some like traditional bones to those shows.

in some ways, especially in the traditional going back 15 years, I guess. There's something about we own this city that I wanted to chat about, which is like now that we're three episodes in, and I thought the third episode was just absolutely extraordinary. And I suppose I could hear

any critiques about it, about maybe being didactic, or it really, like, shunting off any, like, personal character development for, like, the pure, like, what is at stake in this city discussions that happened? but I don't really care

I just find it to be the most like a thought provoking and interesting show on TV but also at the same time so stylish in the way it's being told almost sometimes admittedly to the point of like okay so that's Sean Suter

in 2005 we're seeing him in 17 or 15 and like all that stuff that I know this is a little bit complicated but Simon and Pelicanos could have told this story straight they could have centered it around Bernthal.

They could have just made that the chase for Bernthal and they could have made him the way that they're using him as like the shark from Jaws is fucking incredible. Like the way that they are basically like we're going to hide it and hide it and hide it

and then in these scenes that you get him it just blows like the rest of the screen off. Yeah but I don't remember which Jaws sequel was just like, hey this is a fish. This fish is going to turn into jaws. You know what I mean? Like it's, it didn't do that.

And that's what this show is doing too. I can't get over the framing of it because it's not just complicated for complexity's sake. It is telling you the scope of the story that it wants to tell, you know, in its construction, in that it is almost aggressively, not confusing, but challenging at first. You know, it has an interesting framing convention where you see the report being written and it tells you what year you're, you're about to enter in. But yeah, like to your point, like John Bernthal or Jamie Hector,

like they don't look 23 in 2005, you know what I mean? So it can be a little bit confusing for that reason. But what it is showing you, right, is just as they always do so brilliantly, a snapshot of a city, of a society, of a culture, of an institution that is just, it's not even about it being in decline. It is just corroded, right, and impossibly so, with that same level of a complexity. and it is so enriching and rewarding. That's the main thing. This is not homework. I can understand that if you've been watching

a very different type of drama show for a while and all of a sudden you're back in Wireworld and after 30 minutes of the first one, you're like, this feels a little bit like eating spinach. Okay, but by the way, there's some delicious preparations with spinach out there. But then you let it sink into you. And speaking about pathways in your brain,

they start to wake up again. And you remember what it was like to care about 30 people and an entire city all at once. Across time now, right? Like fucking end game. And you're like, I miss this. And I feel alive with this. Yeah, I mean, the way that they have cast this show too,

where even the guy who Bernthal's talking shit to online for the evidence submission. And he's just like, Hunter's Hunt, you know? Like, he's like yelling at this cop and this cop's like, get the fuck out of here. Like, that guy seems like a cop. Like, I don't know who that guy is. Yeah.

But, like, they are finding all these people who feel, like, very authentically, like, of the profession that they are working. And nothing in this show for as, like, I guess, for lack of a better term, I would just say educational as it is. And for as sometimes no frills as it is, the kind of, like, I'm trying to articulate this. The creation of motive, like the motivations of the characters are never told in the capital letter style, like the headline writing style. this is why he did this capital T, capital W. Like, it's shown that Wayne Jenkins is hung up a little bit about like money. And, you know, at first it's just like these crabs were a lot of money, you know, and I had to really fork out 45 bucks for these.

And then later on, it's this contractor wants a lot of money. And I have to support that. And it shows the way that these things just like spiral out from you when you, you know, you first start and you've got like these. of concerns and then they get bigger and bigger. And that scene that I talked about with Jamie Hector on Monday that I want to chat with you about

this car wash scene. And not only because Rinaldo Marcus Green just shoots it in a way where action and drama is happening in three dimensions of the frame. So like shit is happening in the depth of field, in the far background, and it comes into the foreground. And it's not like a flashy one or necessarily,

but there's just so much going on in the frame at any given time. And how you can kind of see Wayne Jenkins get like triggered by this guy talking shit to him. You know what I mean?

And like the game that they're playing with these guys where it's just like, oh, if you help me out here and make this easy and we don't have to tear up your car wash.

And then it's like, you don't do that. Fine, I'm going to destroy your television and you're going to call me names. I'm going to destroy some more shit. And then when we find it, like,

you can just see like what's a motivation versus what's like a vice. I just think it's like, it's such high-level television making and like Jenkins is just a character that I'll be thinking about for years. Yeah, I got just a couple, I mean, I can't wait to finish out the series.

I love watching it. A couple points that I just want to hit on. I know I raved about Rinaldo Marcus Green's direction when we talked about the first episode. I'm not done raving about it. It's so exciting to see a director who wants to service the story in the best possible way

and can be stylish and be brilliant. brilliant in the margins and not just by like fancy framing or whatever like because there's this thing and I don't want to paint with too wide of a brush here but like there are a lot there was a generation of indie directors who are like auditioning for Marvel movies you know what I mean or like or that's maybe that's not fair maybe that's putting the cart before the horse but you know we're like my influences are Spielberg and I'm done listing my influences and I don't know this guy at all but I feel like you probably likes like Alan J. Pacula you know what I mean just like right

People who turned the camera on and told a good story and got down into it. And from King Richard to this, I just think it's so cool. And it makes me think also, and this is something I hope we'll get to talk to our old friend, George Pelicanos, about. And I got to be careful. I love The Deuce. I watch all three seasons of it. And I will stand for that show. I really, really enjoyed it.

I really admired it. But in some ways, I can't help but think that the things that not we are not necessarily HBO, although maybe some people of HBO thought, certainly this was a little. bit in the press around that show, thought we're going to happen for Simon and Pelicanos and their type of storytelling with that show are happening in this show instead. And what I mean is the Wire, one of the three greatest shows of all time, in arguably, not a show powered by fancy direction or even name brand direction, not a show powered by big stars. People became stars like Idraselba. And so when they did the deuce, I think there was a lot of narrative like, oh, Michelle McLaren

is going to direct the shit out of this. And we got Franco, we got Jillenhall, we got crumholts, Maybe only I said that. But Franco is really good on that show. Jillen Hall, amazing on that show. McLaren did a great job directing the pilot. But when I look at what Rinaldo Marcus Green is doing on the show, and John Bernthal is doing on the show as the star, not in a camera-hugging way, but just as you were saying, the jaws,

this is what happens when those two guys get to work with the right level talent. You know what I mean? Not the like level, but just like the right talent. talent in a way that is just unlocking something. This isn't better than the wire, but it is operating already three episodes in to me the way Better Call Saul operates with Breaking Bad. Like, okay, let's run it back and think about it differently. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic.

It honestly reminds me to Serpico. Like, watching these cop scenes where you're like, if you watch Serpico and you watch what Lembeth does with that, it just, even though like you'll recognize seven of the actors as like legendary New York stage actors from the 1970s, including obviously Alpacian. you know, it just feels like it's happening in real life in front of you. And it feels like the places that they are going, the sets that they're on or the locations that they are, feel like they are alive and you are getting a chance to see them.

This show is just so, it's so complicated, but he is not a static filmmaker. He is not a Master Shot 1-1, Master. You know, like it feels very like much, like the camera is as inquisitive as the writing, which I think is the best possible thing you can. could say about it. And finally, just how nice it is. Like, look, we are, again, we are, I feel, I do feel lucky to be, not just alive, but to be, have a microphone and talk about television

at a time when many shows, whether comedies or big budget dramas that we're talking about or ongoing series, are steering into thorny issues and challenging issues and ideas. Like, that's where we want to be as fans of an art form. But there's a difference between, to use, Pelicanos would appreciate it if I used a car metaphor since he loves them so much. But it's one thing to like idle the engine out in front of heaviness boulevard. And it's another thing to do what they do on this show,

which is just to run straight. Okay, now they're getting out of the car. I apologize. I've lost the metaphor. But run right into this stuff where you can't say, you can't articulate in a simple sentence what we own the city is, quote, trying to say about race.

in America or class in America or policing in America or toxic masculinity in America. It's saying a whole lot all the time because that's its beat. You know what I mean? It is patrolling those streets in a way that feels really, really engaging. I'm just, I'm so impressed by the show by the show. Yeah, I think it's my favorite show of the year so far. It's up there with Pachinko. It's just really, really, it's really been quite something. You want to talk a little bit of Top Chef before we go? Yeah, we didn't watch this. We're recording this Thursday. There will be a new episode. Thursday at 3, so tonight there will be an episode of Top Chef. I just wanted to take your temperature and see where you're at.

We were going to spoil up until tonight's episode. So if you haven't watched, what was the last one? The NASA Challenge, that was the last week's episode. So we're going to. Yeah, I think it was last week the farmer's market, Quickfire, and then NASA was the elimination? NASA was the elimination challenge. Right. And Buddha won, correct?

Yes. Yes, with his space dessert. I'm going to answer your question with a question. Okay. Why is Last Chance Kitchen a more pure distillation of what I think I watch Top Chef for right now than Top Chef? And I don't think that I mean that in any way other than it just feels like that's more purely about like cooking one-on-one. And I think, you know, I often will have issues with some of the wrinkles that they throw at chefs where I'm just like, you're not really testing like the top chefness of this person. You're sort of testing

like, can they read a recipe in a certain way or can they like do things quickly? And last chance kitchen is obviously constantly like a short order cook race basically. But the thrill of watching Sarah over the last few weeks on a program that I think is basically only available on Bravo's

website has been pretty amazing. Compared to, I think it's been like a nice but ultimately unfulfilling for me season of the mothership show. I think it's a great question. And I think we have to shout out, Sarah, this is a legendary goat run in Last Chance Kitchen.

And I'm really glad she gets to go back. So last time something like this happened, was it Brooke? Well, but did Brooke? But both Brooke didn't win seven, did she? No, that's the thing. Both Brooke and Kristen Kish fell to the underworld. And then, like, Orpheus climbed back up out of it and ended up winning the competition. Like Brooke only went out for like one or two.

Yes. She went out at the end and came right back. Other people have had, I think Tom said that this tied a streak, but I don't think whoever won that streak. Either was Kristen, which I'm not sure if it was, or it was someone who didn't ultimately win. I thought somebody on Denver was an LCK for a really long time, but I could be wrong.

Joe Flam, is that a guy's name? Well, there was like Pasta Joe. Yeah. That was Mustache, Joe. Look, we're getting off the point. You're making a very good point because, as we've noticed in Last Chance Kitchen, some TC hallmarks have fallen from quickfire to LCK,

like the blind taste test of ingredients that you then have to cook with. And I think they've fallen, they haven't fallen. I think they've been pushed out by the large corporate arms of Chipotle and trolls and Jurassic Park and all the other, you know, spawn con that I think is unfortunately necessary to mount a show like this. It's just unfortunate. And I think that what you're speaking to, look, we're at a good place. with the show right now, which is why I wanted to check back in with it. Because I think it has a really robust and strong final five, I think. I think that's how many people are left. I love

Damar. I love Nick. I think Buddha is sneaky, awesome and has a really good attitude about things. I love Evelyn. Yeah. Oh, and Evelyn is just a killer. But that Buddha is like one of those people who, you know, who studied the game and watched it and is bringing that to it as well. Also, very much have enjoyed Buddha's poised success and his facial expressions. when he's asked to cook soul food to celebrate the African Methodist tradition in the greater Texas area. Good job by him. I think that the disconnect has been how we got here, right, where it just, and I continue to think that, as you've said in past weeks, we've talked about it, COVID disruptions must have been bigger than we thought.

Possible that what happened last year with Gabe diminished their interest in personal interest stories, which made us feel less connected to people for a while. We don't know that to be true, but wanted to ask the question. But regardless, it felt very neither here nor there when a show ought to be very much there, centered in Houston and not talking about that great Texas food chain Chipotle or the Jurassic Park one, which I just thought was an abomination. So we ended up where we should be,

and the episode where they were cooking in the rebuilt church was a masterpiece episode, one of the, you know, an all-timer. The best episodes of the show, which may be perverse, but to me, they're always the ones where people do, everyone, everyone cooks out of their mind, generally inspired by family or heritage, and it's just like a celebration and everyone's happy. And those are great episodes, and we had one of those.

But it has been a weird season. And I'm interested in this idea, you're suggesting that it may be, because it's just moved off the mark of its core mission in a way. Well, okay, so there's a couple of general critiques that I've heard lobbed at it, which is that obviously not enough Houston, which you could explain away,

but weirdly I don't think that they did. You know, in Portland, they made it abundantly clear the sacrifices that were going into making the season, but also the limitations they were experiencing. And candidly, like I think Portland was pretty closed down. So it's not like they could have gone

to a ton of restaurants in Portland. I don't get the impression Texas is under those same restrictions, but that being said, I understand why they may want to put themselves in necessarily, like, compromised situations. So that's acceptable. there's also been some stuff about like is this show too nice and are these people too nice? And I think that I would take the kernel of that and say like I'm not really looking for like asshole.

I'm not here to make friends chefs kind of ripping up grass in the in the competition. But what I am looking for, I think a little bit is people cooking more against one another and not so much against the show. And the thing that I've sort of kind of settled on that I somewhat bothers me. And it doesn't really bother me, but I think it's like worth noting is. is it just feels like an absolute crapshoot what the judging is going to be on a week-to-week basis. And I think they've done a lot of really cool stuff with bringing in different perspectives and voices,

obviously, on this show. And I think you and I have commented on how Padman Gale, obviously, like, I think have had, like, more to do with how the show works now. I mean, just by reading about how Top Chef is produced these days. But I do feel like there, there is a world in which if you're cooking for a group of the same four to five people every week, there's a continuity to how the food gets talked about.

You missed from last season. You mean, you noted that last season. That is from previous seasons. You know, I think last season what they did was they brought in a lot of all-star chefs. So on any given week, it was a different group of people judging it. And, you know, Dale and you had, you know, Jeffrey. They all became familiar with the contestants. Sure.

Yeah. But like I think that there is something to be said for giving you an idea of how this person was cooking when they first got there, what challenges they faced, and why they're cooking better now. And that's typically like how I think of like the winners of Top Chef. There you sometimes you have wire to wire winners. But like for the most part, like somebody like kind of gets over themselves and starts cooking the way that they know they're supposed to be. And there's something about this like dealer like this like kind of wild card way of the, of the judging where on any given week, like, yeah, Tom and Gail and Padmer are there, but there's two or three other people. And then during the actual eating of the food, there are two or three other people who might be the most vocal, you know, you're putting down your dish, 10 people are sitting there, eight of them are speaking, and then four are judging you. There just seems to be like, I don't really have like a hold of like the basic like food

narrative of each episode of like this person cooked well, this person cooked poorly. You're really relying on them being like, I fucked up and didn't get stuff on my plate. Are you finding yourself surprised at how things are shaking out at judges table? Not necessarily, but I do think that, and I actually think you're right to say, like, we should check in now because I do think that the show is wound up in a good place with the right chefs. But contrast that to like Survivor, which I know you don't watch, which there are like four people remaining on Survivor. I'm just like, I have no idea about how the fuck this person is still on Survivor. Like, it's just absolutely a miracle that this person has not been voted off 18 times before. On Top Chef, I think they arrived at the right place.

I just wonder whether or not, like, you're losing out on being able to foreground, like, hey, Nick, you're winning a fair amount, but not all the time. And there's times where I feel like you're, like, in third gear. And he even said, I'm saving some stuff for the end. Oh, DeMar, I think, was the one who said that. And I'm like, Demar, that would be. fascinating if Damar was like, you kind of like leapt on that. We're like, oh, that's a strategy for playing top chef.

Like you are saving a recipe for the end. Does everybody do that? Is that a bad strategy? Apparently, because he really screwed up and made the worst food of the season last week. Right. But I think that I hear everything you're saying, and I definitely agree that it's worth considering as a cause for what has been a lackluster season. I think that just for the sake of argument, I will take the House position and say that

maybe the state of Top Chef is stronger than we think, if only for the fact that this is unquestionably the correct final five. Like, I don't, I won't hear a single argument otherwise, and I don't think there's one to be made. Like, these were the five best. And we'll, I think, because of that, we'll make for a great end to the season. It was a strange how we got here, though, and it didn't always feel narratively clear or linear and just had some, as we.

keep saying, just some strange detours that didn't feel like they were putting anyone in a position to succeed or to succeed consistently expressing themselves and who they are and what they wanted to bring to the show. And I guess we'll have to see. Hopefully we could have a marginally less COVID-affected season next year. We'll see. And maybe we could better understand what version of the show will come out of this time. Yeah, right. Right. I don't know. I'm excited for the last few. And I wouldn't have said, we took a break. I mean, candidly, we stopped talking about the show because I think both of us were bummed out by it, even though we kept watching. But now I'm watching every week. I just don't know that I had any observations other than I just feel like I'm watching like a made for TV version of Top Chef that's happening on a soundstage and is like, honestly, like I know that in the years past there have been minions challenges and stuff like that. It's not, I'm not like a shrinking violent when it comes to the corporate spawn stuff.

But like it just seemed like Jurassic Park was like 67% of an episode. And I was like, this is kind of weird. we can wrap it up there. Sorry about the audio today up until the last few minutes. I just simply screwed up. But I'm going to talk for a minute here about Outer Range

before I get into my interview with Lewis Pullman from Outer Range and also from Top Gun Maverick. We were produced as always by Kai McMullen. Andy and I will be back on Monday to discuss the latest episode of Better Call Saul and whatever else jumps into our brains

over the weekend. Thanks for listening and please check out my interview with Lewis Pullman, although spoiler warning it is about the entire season of Outer Range. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com. Actual prices may vary. Limited time offer. All right, gang. Before we get into my interview with Lewis Pullman, I thought I would try to share some thoughts on Outer Range. I had Rob Mahoney on a couple of weeks ago,

and we discussed the first few episodes, and I hope people are checking this show out. I'm going to give like a couple of spoilery thoughts, which are actually just sort of like me saying where I wound up with the show. It's not necessarily like explaining it or giving a critique of it. I really enjoyed it, obviously. So for the folks who remember, I think Rob and I loosely described,

this as true detective colon yellowstone and I think it it's stuck to that course but the thing I admired most about it over the course of the season was its willingness to abandon whatever it was that was making it good in the first place so by that I mean it just was capable of these tonal flourishes that you really don't often see in 60 minute dramas once those shows those especially those prestigious mystery shows kind of like establish a feel you're not going to get like Mayor of East Town also having like long lip syncing sequences or lots of like sci-fi elements or these sort of like mystical monologues that were going on in outer range. And I thought that the reason why the show was able to be more than the sum of its parts

and the sum of its parts were pretty significant, but even more than the sum of its parts was its willingness to sort of be anything it wanted from any given moment. I can understand if you were watching this, you might just be like, this was really jarring. It's really jarring. The characters maybe don't always seem consistent or it's hard to get a hold of what the show is about. I think especially the image in Pooot's character, Autumn, was a very mysterious chaotic force throughout the season. And I thought that was pretty cool. But I could understand why people might be like, what does she want and why is she doing what she's doing throughout the season. Gets me to my bigger point, which is something that sort of touches on what Andy and I were talking about

earlier with new showitis versus returning showitis, which is that I think that this show very smartly paste itself to be a multi-season show with the knowledge that it might not be. Now, I haven't seen anything about Outer Range being renewed. I imagine that if Josh Brolin signs up to do a TV show, he's able to at least get like a handshake understanding that if he wants to keep doing the TV show, he's going to keep doing it. I think that this show has a lot more on the table that it could still get to. So for people who have watched it, I'll be talking a little bit more specifically here. You know, we get some understanding of what this void, this giant hole in the ground in the West pasture of Royal Abbott's branch is, which is essentially a space time

portal, but that this black dust inside of this hole is time itself made physical and that that it has been there for however long that obviously multiple characters on the show have encountered it at various points over the course of their lives. The big, Reveals are obviously that Royal, in fact, fell into the hole in the 19th century and was sort of kicked out into his new life in the 20th century, which I thought was fucking incredible.

And also really spoke to why Brolin was carrying himself the way he was. And he does seem like an almost caricature of Cowboy Out of Time on this show. What I'm not so clear on is the Amy Autumn stuff, which is a little bit more like revealed in the final moments of the finale as Royal goes up to Amy or Autumn rather in this field where all these bison have just stampeded and his son, Rhett, has gotten into a car accident, which Rhett is played by Lewis Pullman, who's about to hear from.

And he realizes that Autumn is in fact Amy, his granddaughter. Now, you basically have to now go back and rewatch the series to under understand knowing that why Autumn says certain things or does certain things. And even then, there are some massive lingering questions. Number one, the mining corporation that obviously plays a huge part in the flash forward. That is sort of the Dr. Manhattan moment with Josh Brolin in, I believe, the second episode. And just in general, like why Autumn seems so adversarial towards royal and seems to be very set. on like stopping him in certain places because it's unclear as to why, like, whether or not

we're supposed to view Autumn as the like hero and protector of time or whether she's on a mission of some other sort, whether it's like to find her mother. I know she's reunited with her mother in some regards at the rodeo in the finale, but there's just a lot to unpack there. I thought it did a really good job ultimately though in picking a setting in the West, the modern West, that still feels out of time and that you could believably have people kind of almost emerging from other eras and existing in this one. And it's not actually like that hard to believe that they could pull that off. I mean, ranching is, I'm sure, much different now than it was in the 19th century, but it's essentially still pointing horses and cattle in different directions

and making sure they're eating and moving them. So I thought that was great. It was also really cool to think about like this fight over land essentially being one that. that's been taking place over hundreds of years, which I think Yellowstone also does very well. And I thought across the board, it just featured some remarkable performances, chiefly, Berlin, I loved Putes. I thought Lewis Pullman was fantastic.

In the limited amount of time we got to spend with Brett, but he essentially is, as I mentioned to him, in a Larry McMurtry novel that's taking place during Twin Peaks happening. So really cool show. Maybe I'll have Rob back on, and we can kind of go through some unanswered questions if people are interested in hearing more about how to arrange

but just one of those shows that I think kind of got lost a little bit in all the talk about everything else that's happening right now. And I hope once things settle down, people, you know, can burn through it because I think it's a really, really rewarding watch. And it has a real sense of its own voice that I thought was pretty unique and pretty fun to watch. Shout out to all the people who directed some of my favorite filmmakers on TV right now. Alonzo Ruiz Palacios, who did the first two episodes in Amy Simon, who did a block in the middle. But Lauren's Trilling, who directed the final two, brings like a completely different sensibility. And even at points has like a kind of kinetic, like Scorsese thing going on as Autumn is sort of teamed up with,

I believe, Billy from the other family to, and obviously like falls for him in a big way. So a confusing but beautiful and interesting and funny and moving show from the Outer Range. And let's get into my interview with Lewis Pullman, who plays Rhett Abbott. on the show and is also going to be seen in Top Gun Maverick coming up soon. Lewis Pullman, thank you so much for joining me on the watchman because I wanted to talk to you about Outer Range. There's a moment in like the,

I believe it's the last episode where you're getting ready. Rett's getting ready to ride his last bull ride. And his father comes up to him and he's like, I got to tell you everything. And your character is just like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I felt like that was a very like great example. crystallization of your characters, like, kind of role in the show where you're, like, the grounding

force of what is, like, a show that is threatening to spin off in all these different directions, but you kind of give it this sense of gravity the entire time. Did you feel that, like, as your purpose? I mean, that's well said. Yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. I think, you know, Rett doesn't really have many interactions with the, you know, the hole or the Space time continuum? Yeah. The space time continuum, per se. But he, I think, can sense it, you know.

I think his whole life is disintegrating around him in real time. But it's just too far on the peripheries to really be able to put a finger on what's happening. You know, I think he's never seen his dad with so many loose ends and kind of like, you know, just so frayed at the edges. He's always been kind of a totem of stability. and knowing what to do when and how. And so, yeah, it felt like in a lot of ways, Wrette, I mean, I tried to make it seem like, you know,

I feel like everyone in Amelia County has this thing, this sense of it trickling in, like slowly, like an IV drip. Like there's something different going on here. And I tried to include that. But yeah, he definitely is still sort of like, one of the one of the main characters of the abbots at least that that is still kind of in the dark about what how massive it is the massive themes that the story is dealing with yeah i was trying to like when i've been talking to friends of mine about this show i was like it's kind of like

a larry mcmurtry book but it's happening in twin peaks and there's this tension that's like kind of pulling it but i was curious whether or not like was your initial attraction to the role aside from the quality of the writing and getting to work with these folks, like the combination of those two things. I get to be a rodeo cowboy and work with Josh Bowen, but it's also like there is this on the edge of this show and on the edge of this story, this incredibly mysterious, mystical, spiritual sort of subplot.

Absolutely. I think, yeah, beyond all the obvious reasons that you stated, I think there was an allure, a really strong poll that felt like I might learn something about myself and about this world through the story and how well Brian Watkins tells it. I think that it explores such esoteric themes that, you know, if, you know, they're easy to kind of brush off in day-to-day life. I just don't know. I don't know what, I don't know what's happening. But when you, I think, are prepping for.

something like this, you have to kind of ask yourself questions that maybe are a little uncomfortable or a little daunting or terrifying. And so there were periods of, you know, I also wasn't sure where Retz's, where Rett's storyline was going to go. So I was really, even though he doesn't really, you know, dip his toes into that world or into the, into the hole. Yeah. I still was saturated in, in a lot of these themes of, you know, the spacetime continuum and what, What would it mean if you could go back, if you could go forward? And also just, you know, what it looks like to, you know, to be in the most, in an incredibly normal environment hit by the most abnormal forces.

What does that kind of like contact looked like? Do you think that Rett's desire to escape is purely based on his relationship with Maria? Like when you were sort of thinking about this character, because obviously she comes into his life again and is kind of this galvanizing force that's like there's a life outside of this family and there's a life outside of this town, there's a life outside of what you know.

Is that something you think that he was thinking and feeling in the early episodes or like before the show starts? Like is it a feeling that like, or did you find that was like purely like something like this hit me and it changed me? No, I think that that was always bubbling under, you know, in his character.

that was always kind of simmering. I don't think he ever had any sort of catalyst that was worthy enough to break him out and to actually make it a reality. You know, I think he is, it was definitely grappling with being under the shadow of his dad. You know, his dad was a great bull rider. And I think, you know, he's continually trying to, you know,

top him and be to be to, you know, best that he can be. But also, I think that there's a part of RET that feels like he is a little bit left behind in the family. He's sort of forgotten. You know, he's like the caboose. I think they, when they need him, he's always there. But I think he feels a little bit left behind in a lot of the decision making and like

what, who's actually, you know, who is going to run the ranch? Who's actually, you know, fit for that? And I think that he just maybe felt a little. bit like a black sheep, you know, in a family that already is sort of a family of black sheep's. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that was that, you know, Perry killing Trevor was sort of the catalyst of like, okay, now I need, now I don't just want to get out.

I don't want to have a life of my own and have some autonomy. I need to. This is necessary for survival. There's that moment where you're fixing, bending fence. is I guess with uh, Roland, uh, with Royal.

And he says, he basically is like, you're like me. You know, you're not like Perry. You're more like me. And I thought that was such a great, ambiguous moment between you two.

Because on one hand, it feels like, Rhett feels like I feel seen for the first time. Like, you know, I feel like affirmed by this guy. But on the other hand, it's like,

do I really want that as like my diagnosis? Is that I'm like my dad? I thought that that was also, just an amazing moment between you and Josh. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, getting to play his son and finding that relationship and finding that dynamic because I thought that moment was so, so wonderful. Yeah, that was a special moment in the script for me because it really does encapsulate

that thing, you know, that every father and son can kind of speak to, which is like that real thin, tightrope walk of wanting to emulate your dad and wanting to be him, while also all at once wanting to take the hardest right, you know, and be the opposite. And those things live in tandem. And they kind of just are always like creating this, this energy that will either make you or destroy you. And I think that, yeah, that that moment is really, really well encapsulates that. And it's really easy to work with Josh. I mean, he's such a giving, generous actor and really was, you know, had a real, you know, I'm friends with his daughter.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I did know Josh a little bit growing up, but it was pretty special to have him. You know, he's obviously, you know, really cares. so much about the whole cast, but I think he also did take me under his wing a lot. And he could tell when I was having moments of doubt or uncertainty with the story or my character.

And he would call me at night and, you know, talking me for hours, just being, you know, giving me absolute gold advice. And taking the time, you know, taking the time out of his busy-ass day to do that and make sure that I did feel confident and comfortable and, like, I could own RET.

And that I think, you know, bled on to screen with him. I really felt like because there's also that thing of, you know, even though Royal is, you know, tethered and kind of veering off center, there's, and there's a fear, there's a fear that the pillar of, you know, your home life is being derailed. But there's also a massive concern. All of a sudden, it's almost like the roles change. And I think that that kind of happens a lot in life. you know, there can be moments where the son can be the father, you know, and vice versa.

And I tried to, I mean, there's, you know, they're a lot more frequent in this situation, but I tried to, you know, pick those in there. Did you, I was watching like a couple of videos before we did this, like, of some of the top gun press and, yeah, I see you wearing your flight suit. And it kind of hit me. I was like, you've got this role coming up in the, in the theaters. but for out of range. And I know you spent like,

obviously I think you, I saw that you like spent a lot of time on a ranch in Montana. So this is not like a completely unfamiliar environment to you. But is there, is there something about like putting on the hat or like even the hat, like the ball cap that you wear when you're working like on, on like the fences and stuff like that and working out like on the,

on the range? Like that like just like immediately puts you in the place. You know, like is there something about like the like frankly just the costuming for a role like this that's just like, shit, man. Like, I just feel like this guy immediately because I've got these jeans on. Yeah, definitely.

I think, you know, Josh told me before we started shooting, he was like talking about prepping for no country for old men. He was like, I was terrified. No big deal. Don't big deal. I know, just casually sitting waiting for, waiting to roll. And he's like, yeah, I was working on, you know, getting ready to shoot no country for old men.

I was, you know, petrified. I was just like, how am I going to find this guy? I had these boots. And for the character, he was like, and I would just walk. I took him home and I walked around. I think he shot a lot in Las Vegas, New Mexico, where we shot. Yeah. And he was like, I would just walk the streets at night and those boots.

I wore him right on down. And that was just because his character is also just on foot so much. And it was just like a jackhammer burrowed its way into me. And it is true, you know, the power of something. simple like that, something tangible that you can touch and feel to ground you. And so I just robbed him with that and I

took my boots home. Did you? You know, ride my boots. And that really did help me feel like I could wake up and put them on and just sink right into red. Was there a lot of stuff that you learned about like the way guys you ride rodeo carry themselves

or just like what it's like before, what it's like after a ride that like informed your performance? Definitely. I really tried to study, you know, that's just all the traits of this guy, J.B. Mooney, who's in my mind, one of the most badass bull riders. He's like, you know, he is thin as a rail. He, like, he's always chugging down on cigarettes and he's one of the best bull riders out there. And he, he, yeah, so we modeled some of them by Rhett's tattoos off of him. and I just really thought that he was kind of a great example for RET

because there is something very kind of old school about the habits. And J.B. Mooney is, he's like, in this one interview, he's like, you know, you can work out all you want, but you're not going to out muscle a 3,000 pound bowl. It's all about balance and it's all about predicting the move right before it happens. And so the way he trains, I mean, he does, one of the ways he trains is he'll stand on a medicine ball in his garage, watching clips and smoking cigarettes for like the entire day. So I was like, I think that's... I missed that Peloton video.

I didn't see the stand on a medicine ball and smoke cigarettes. I would have signed up if I had known. I know. It's a lot more fun, right? Yeah. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of making it because one of the fascinating things about seeing shows like this come to fruition is that you obviously have Brian writing and you have like a kind of overall

aesthetic that flows throughout the show and it look. But then you get to work with like a bunch of really cool directors. And I was actually, I'm actually like a really big fan of Alonzo Ruiz Palacios's movies that I've seen. Yeah. And then obviously like I'm a huge Amy Simon's fan. Tell me a little bit about what it's like to work. You're doing this character across eight, nine hours or whatever of TV.

But then you get to work with basically different autores. Like how does that change your performance at all? Yeah, it was interesting. I think for me it was a real learning experience because I had only done a limited series. I've never done a, you know, TV series like this. So, yeah, it's, it's, I had to kind of learn to lean in. At first I was like a little bit like, you know, when Alonzo left or, you know, Amy left or or, or Larry Trilling left. I just, you know, felt like, or Jen, like you feel like a little abandoned.

You're like, we were just getting in the groove. We were just getting to know each other. And I had to kind of learn to lean into that. And it is in the end, I think, a really helpful thing because it keeps things really refreshing and it keeps you continually stepping, you know, to the left or right and trying to look at it from a different perspective. And everyone was bringing in their own versions of what, you know, what out of range is and what the tone is. Yeah, you know, Alonzo had us do some like rehearsal, like games and like almost like black box theater type

prep, which felt so it was a huge surprise to me. I was like, holy smokes, we're doing a prime video TV show and we get time to like play around with like a, we're doing this game where you like, it's a long stick and you one person puts their finger on the end of the stick and the other puts their finger on the other end

and the stick and it's completely silently. You kind of do this move and this dance while trying not to let the stick drop and this like kind of silent communication. And we did that, all the, all the members of the Abbott family did that. I think Josh and Imogen did that. And it was, you know, in some other, other, you know, iterations of that kind of technique, which was really helpful and also kind of a way to like, be like, okay, this is, we're just playing. Like,

I think Josh also is so adamant to remind everybody that, like, don't take it so seriously. We're all, we're all jumping into the abyss together. And so why not do that laughing and free, and freely, you know. And so that was a pretty refreshing. Yeah. Experience, you know. If you got to, if you've got like Buffalo winding or wandering around and Will Patton doing Will Patton things, like it's got to have like a sense of humor or a sense of play to it, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, pretty much after the first 20 minutes of this whole show, it just dives right into the drama. And so it's a pretty heavy headspace to live in for seven months. And Josh was really, you know, he really has maintained this kind of like childlike

sense of wonder and play. And he's just one of the funniest dudes I've ever met. Yeah. So that really helped to like, you know, inject some levity into the whole process. That's awesome. Well, I mean, I love the show so much. It was such a cool, like, like, unique vision of it. I have you got a chance to like, I mean, have you been, did you watch it like in a big chunk or have you been like kind of spacing it out a little bit? Or are you not, I watch my own stuff guy? I am, no, I'm not there yet. I still am like,

God, I got, you know, that's a great learning tool for me. Because I always think, it's always like the scenes that I think I crushed that I watch and I'm like, what, oh my God, what was I doing? I was asleep at the wheel. And the ones that I'm really terrified about, or I'm like, okay, it wasn't so bad. But, yeah, I watched the first two episodes and it took a little breather just because I was just, you know, it is a real hard thing to

spend so much time away from something and you have your own, especially something that's so specific like out of range to, you know, to kind of just like let it have a life of its own. And so I'd watch the two, that first two episodes took a little week break. And then I dove into the rest of them. And yeah, it's, I always say like, this is my ideal show as an audience member. This is like, when I got the role, I was like ecstatic and absolutely petrified because I was like, now it's only up to me to find this up, you know? Like, this was going to. I could have just sat on my couch and really enjoyed the shit out of this show, but now I'm going to have to really like make sure that I'm not the weakest link.

I don't screw this up. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. You certainly didn't, man. It was a great season of TV. Good luck with all the top gun stuff. Not that I don't think that you need my luck for that. I'll take it.

I'll take it, man. Thank you so much for talking to me. Thank you. Thanks for the great questions.