The Watch - ‘Dune: Part Two’ and Denis Villeneuve’s World Building. Plus, Mailbag Questions

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Chris and Andy give their reactions to ‘Dune: Part Two’ (1:00) and talk about whether or not the movie cemented the next generation of stars in Timothee Chalamet, Zendaya, Austin Butler, and Florence Pugh (30:38). Then they talk about some other things they are watching like Richard Linklater’s new documentary ‘Hometown Prison’ (41:36), before opening up the mailbag to answer a few questions around the state of the tv industry (48:54). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio with a Stanley bottle full of the water of life. It's Andy Greenwood! A day late, a few dollars short.

It's my B, honestly. So just a shout out to the watch listeners. I'm so sorry for us not blessing you with your usual Monday episode. I just straight up, I fucked up. I just double booked. And it's rare for me. I'm usually pretty, I try to be on top of my schedule. and I just had a rollicking weekend of stuff

and was sitting here ready to record the watch and then I looked at my schedule and I was like, I'm supposed to record the watchables right now. So I had to go do that and Andy was very accommodating with his schedule as it was Kaya. But here we are a day after.

This is amazing because I feel like unless you are a voter in the state of Arizona, you're not used to accountability like this. Like just standing up, come and clean with your voters. That's right. That's right. I appreciate that. That's really kind.

Kirsten taught me well. civility, working with other... Reaching across the aisle. Andy, it's great to see you. A little bit of admin. So today, obviously, we're a day late, but we're going to do some talk about a film Andy saw, not on an airplane.

And it's called Dune Part 2. Then we're going to talk a little bit of other, like, trailers, stuff we've been watching, a little bit in between stuff. We've got a ton of mailbag questions, which I solicited from our Facebook group on Sunday. And they were so generous, they gave us hundreds of questions.

So we're going to split that. We'll answer some today. We'll answer some on Thursday after we're done talking about Shogun episode three, which will be airing last night tonight, Tuesday? It's Tuesday. It's up now, I think. Yeah. We wanted to tell our listeners, no one has asked us to do this.

We've got no feedback, but apparently we've been saying Shogun goes up on Wednesdays. Now, you know, you and I, we stand a network that doesn't mind when podcasters get that wrong. Yeah. And we got it wrong. Yeah. Well, like, it's fine. It's cool. You just admit defeat.

We're wrong. on Tuesdays. I think we should lean into the bit and just be like, House of the Dragon now airing on Wednesdays on Paramount. Oh, you think we should

just actively get things wrong? That becomes a little bit more like sabotage at that point. A couple of things. What's on Stick the Landing this week? This week is a very special one. They're all special.

But this week, we did my favorite television show of all time Twin Peaks. It was me, Joe Roe. And... Shout to Joe Roe. The best to do it. Honestly...

And listen to check out Joe and Rob doing showgun recaps. They're doing great job. They have known for months that the show airs on Tuesdays. So I think that's the main way to differentiate between the two feeds. This was something I've wanted to talk about for a while. I think we talked about the season two finale from the early 90s that affected every moment of my life since, as well as the finale of Twin Peaks to the return.

Two things that I took away from this. Did you talk about the last few minutes of Firewalk with me? No, but would you like to? I'm always available to talk about that. I didn't know that about it. I love everything about Twin Peaks so much. And my takeaway from the experience podcasting is, I wish I could podcast about Twin Peaks more.

There was a lot there. And also so much that I walked away being like, that was great. We always do a Twin Peaks rewatch, man. No one better to talk about this with than, I guess, you. I was going to say Joanna, but maybe all three of us. But also that I feel like there was just so much left unset that I just didn't quite get to. but that was... So did you prepare some remarks you'd like to...

Kyya, who was sitting in, feels that there's no way that we didn't get to something because it was a very long way. I can't wait to check that one out. That was fun. And yeah, exciting stuff coming from Stick the Landing industry soon, right?

Oh, yeah, you think? Maybe. Who knows? We'll see. I mean, I was excited back when I thought someone was a reliable scheduler, you know? And now that the first chip in the veneer has appeared. Bro, I'm sorry. You know, I don't like it. I don't like not being on my square.

It's tough to balance. the watching and the rewatching between these podcasts. I get it. You had some fun stuff happen today. Oh, yeah. I also just want to say if I'm particularly zinned out today, it's not because of the nicotine needles that are jammed into my gum line. I had the most fun morning because, Chris, speaking of a day late or 1,000 days late, a USA original show called Briar Patch is premiering in Latin America. That's awesome.

So I did 13 interviews in two hours with all sorts of new amigos from, Colombia to Argentina, Uruguay, Panama, Brazil. It was really, really fun. So if you are in any of these countries, it was just, it's such a, you know, I love making that so much and I loved getting the chance to talk about it. So if we have listeners in these countries, you will get to see this show in June, I believe. Awesome. By the way. Is there a Latam overall platform? There's like a USA, there's a, there's a, there's a melange, if you will, of like USA, Latin America. There's Universal Plus streaming service, I think. Whatever your local version of that is. I'll be signing up for all of them.

You know, via VPN, just give me all these Latam peacocks. One last bit of just, you know, really relevant Briar Patch admin for the diehards. I was just thrilled. I just feel like most people who are really fans know this, but prior to this big launch, the show was only streaming in what I termed, market. I'm sorry, key market. Yeah. And I don't want to embarrass it. I mean, you know that Breyer Patch has been airing to great acclaim in the island nation of Mauritius. Oh, I didn't know that. I mean no disrespect to the people of the beautiful island nation of Mauritius.

But I think of, I can think of no better just avatar of my experience in the streaming economy than having a show that is available in almost no part of the world. but really available in a country smaller than East Los Angeles. Is, Marisha supposed to be pretty, where is that? My favorite thing is that if you Google Maricious, you get a picture that is primarily Africa, secondarily all of Madagascar, and then like Jimmy said to Karen and Goodfellas, keep going. It's down there. A little bit further.

Keep going. No, no, no. What you want to be airing in is a country where they, The name of the country on the map dwarfs the landmass of the country. Yeah. You know, so, you know, the way some people are here for a good time, not a long time, I'm not here for everyone. I'm just here for Mauritians.

Greenwald. Yeah. You want to talk about Dune? You don't want to put this off any longer? No. I mean, I'm very curious. You paint me a word picture. Talk about the experience and then we'll get into your feelings on the movie.

Obviously, I went on big picture right the day the movie came out. So I've shared my enthusiasm for the movie. It'll come as no surprise. Because you also, you wanted to make clear that you saw it before the movie came out. Just a day or two. Actually, the Gen Pop could have gotten in. They just had to be on top of their business and get those first screenings. Is that what you were?

You were just like smashing Fandango? No, Mallory did all the hard work. So I just, I got a ticket via Mal. Oh, so Mallory invited her friends. And then I don't know if you know, but me and the Midnight Boys sat like in a row. Yeah. Should I check my spam filter? Is that like...

Oh, for the invite? Yeah. I invited you. You did? Yeah. I was like, you want to come to the last second, yeah. Did you send that to me or to my people?

I said it to your Latin M reps. What did you think of the movie? Come on. I thought you wanted me to paint a picture. Okay, paint a picture. I don't need to be coy about. I am a dune head. I've been dune-pilled.

Okay. I'm so into this. whole thing. But I have some, I have a little pushback on some aspects of it, but I had a great experience. I love how fucking weird this movie is, and how big it is, and how

all of the algos are now just pumping me just joke content. You mean your Facebook news feed? Yes. I mean, I was, no free ads. But... You advertised your... I was actually thinking about you today because Meadow was down. Oh, my God.

And I was like, I wonder, Andy can neither post noodles or read about fantastic forecasting rumors. That's true. Yeah. You know, I, luckily, I have a VPN in Mauritius where I can kind of like, you know. Backdoor into Palo Alto. Yeah. I, it's so crazy to me how big this is. And it was really fun.

I went to the new, the vista theater. Yes. For LA Heads. This is an old theater in like Silver Lake Los Angeles. Fulis that Quentin Tarantino has purchased and turned into a repertory house. Gorgeous. It's actually

mostly first-run stuff. That's true. They were doing the IB Tech Festival there, so they had some rep stuff, but for the most part, they've had It's not like the new Bev then. Napoleon's zone of interest and now Dune, I think, has been so far like there. So it's like a showcase place to show movies that he proves of on film. It's got to

be on 35 film, I think. Or 70. This was 70. Yeah. So, a great a great experience. And I, for the first 90 minutes of this movie, and we're going to talk about the movie, we're going to, to people, just like, do you want to warn anyone? Oh, spoilers for Dune. Yeah. Thanks, pal. I was. Can you see Dune? Unfortunately, no, I was visiting my parents.

They didn't want to see Dune? They're not like theater people. It's not a musical. It's not a musical. I asked my dad. I asked my dad, I asked my angels in America. I asked my dad, I said, are you interested in Dune? Oh. And he said, yeah, I just watched the first one a couple weeks ago. And he said, yeah, second one's out this weekend. He's like, oh, wait. That's my mom, too.

That's awesome. But I did, I did watch Napoleon with them. Oh, fun. Which was surprisingly good. Oh, good. I thought you were going to say to your dad, are you interested in Dune? He would have been like, Dune what? Am I right?

Classic Dad joke. Classic dad. Okay. So for the first 90 minutes of this movie, I was levitating like one of those moth copters. Yeah. Like, I cannot stress how fucking rad it is to see a filmmaker so in his bag, making, doing visual storytelling, like the way all other big budget movies have been attempting to do for the last decade, but making you feel something, making you understand the artistry, making you not notice the seams and be like, holy shit, that's big, that's loud, that's heavy, the gravity of stuff, the artistry of it, the conception. The level of detail from what must have been storyboards years ago to pulling it off with CGI that you don't even notice the CGI is so jaw-dropping and so honestly inspiring that the level of commitment and craft and just all the little details. I just love that he only cast freaks, just like absolute just like weirdos in these parts from walking to your guy Austin Butler, who we're going to talk about.

I was thrilled. I have to confess, and I don't know if, I haven't done a lot of deep reading about other people's reactions, so I'm curious, you know, you're Vox Populi over there.

If this is in any way, if this is a shared opinion, after the Harkinen, Lenny Reefinstall, after Austin Butler's Arena. Cannibal corpse, yeah, right? That whole thing, the black and white,

incredible showpiece. The movie kind of jumped a track for me. Okay. And it was hard for me to get back into it. And I started to watch it in a way that I didn't love, which was kind of bumping on the just breathless plot churn to get to where the movie needed to go. So, like, is that before...

I think it's Chani and Paul, like have a bunch of second act scenes where they're kind of like, kind of, obviously, like, their relationship blossoms. Right. That's like before or after the Austin Bulls stuff. I thought that was nice. It's the second act stuff where it's like we have to get south.

We have to go south. I won't go south. I shall become a Messiah and kill everyone. She's like, no, you won't. Come with me. He's like, I will. And then he does. And then she's mad at him.

He's like, girl, I told you I was going to become an evil Messiah. Did you not get the, like, you were C-Ced on that email. Come on, man. You know what I mean? She's all mad. You can't govern the human heart. Why she's so mad? He literally.

told her what would happen if he went south. Because he also takes the other woman's hand in marriage. We're getting to that. Listen, the fact that this entire movie... The one-day morning quarterback, my guy Paul? The fact that this entire movie leads to the ultimate meta inside joke

where he's just like, yeah, I'm in Dune 2 into Dune 2 chicks at the same time. And that's the plot of the movie. Applaus. So you liked the fact that it became a love triangle. Well, look, have you been, polyamory is in. I don't know if you've been reading the New York Times.

I get New York magazine delivered to my home. Okay. Yeah. So, we talked to the big cat cover. My children are like, this is the best magazine cover ever. Can we put this on the wall? You're like blacking out of the cover lines. Can we?

No, no. So I want to be clear. Like, I fucking love this. Yeah. I was. Sometimes it's more interesting to talk about the issues that you have in the movie that it is like, just be like, Denny in his bag. Yeah.

And my thing. was there is, so there's, there's two pieces here. There is a plot churn. Now, I want to be clear, like, the fact that he is so faithful to the book, from what I understand, and that Paul's turn is not necessarily a traditional heroic turn, and that that's complicated. And I think that I would understand if some audience members are bumping on that. And I kind of love that, that this is not just a, it is, in essence, from what I'm understanding by the plot here, this is Superman, but it turns into the boys in a way. Yeah.

And it's a depiction of sort of cult-like fanaticism and power and the accumulation of power and the means to get power. The fact that Paul can almost take it or leave, take or leave the fact that he is potentially actually the Messiah and is using all of this for political aims. I think it's so fascinating. And it helps me understand why Denis Villeneuve and all these other great artists like love the story and have for so long. Yeah.

And like all the questions about whether Paul is still in a. Trades or he's a Fremon or is he a god or like what is he right and can you manipulate or basically can you like play into the role that you get so can you can you decide like yeah if everybody believes I'm a messiah I'm going to start behaving like one my problem if I had one was really getting everyone getting all those ducks in a row getting everyone into that final battle scene that's when I started to finally feel the pace and momentum churn of a movie start to come into conflict with a 600-page book that gives every detail of everything.

Sure. Because all of a sudden, we are spending a ton of time with, you know, sort of like prenatal conversations where there's a lot of, we have to go south, we can't go south. Suddenly we're all riding worms. How did we all get it? Why did we get an entire community on a worm?

And then we're going through storms. And then three weeks passed. Then he's drunk the water. And then he's woken up. And then the tears. Like it was such a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad rush. Yeah. to get there that I actually, and I'm not saying that this, I reject the idea, I did see some people

being like, oh, there's so much story here. This should have been more movies or a TV show. Like, no. What makes this good is the he had to choose. Yeah. And he went for it. But I felt myself cleaving away from this sort of like absolute joyful exhilaration of living present in it and starting to be like, this is all eight months. She hasn't given birth the baby yet. Josh Boland's hair doesn't grow that fast. Why are you the Iraqis OB-GYN? Well, first of all, I have a lot of questions about just all sorts of like birthing. Because they have a lot of, okay, they have a lot of opinions about water, right? They live in the desert.

And then they're like, don't vomit. That is special to keep you alive. Okay, speaker of house, Mike Johnson. But for real. But then they're like, ah, but the water we took out of our friend is special water. And we keep that water here. and if you can't touch that water even if you're dying. And then in the south

they're like, we keep a special jacuzzi for the worm to just kind of barf into sometimes. Yeah. And look, we just came off of True Detective Season 4 where there's like a whole birthing center in a similar pool minus the worm. And I'm like, is that where... Talk to me about what's happening here.

Do you think they tell baby Anya hey, so I know you're real up to date with the maneuverings of Parishah, Saddam, whatever his name is. Uh-huh. Just some, like, more micro-intel for the next six weeks. Maybe that was on the left on the cutting floor. Were they...

Yeah, more arachist birthing techniques just didn't make it in a longer timbreclay. Here's what's going to happen. Just kind of the TikTok of it. We're going to play some music. I think what you're reacting to is that the second act of the films, like the middle stretch of it, is dedicated towards establishing the relationship between shallow man Zendaya. Yep.

Giving it real emotional heft and making people invest in these two in a real like, fuck, am I watching Titanic kind of way? Yeah. And then you give them, that's what makes the turn so effective. So I think if he wants to make this movie

for less than two and a half hours, if he wants the runtime to be around two and a half or less, he's got to choose. Either I give short shrift to the relationship, building, or I'm going to have to count on people being like, I get it. Like, they got to go south. And we don't have to do like 20 minutes of negotiating and whether who went south when. But I agree with this.

I think that he's making these choices wisely and well. And that is also the spirit of this whole project. And that's what last week when we were sort of previewing this. Because isn't this kind of what happened at the end of Thrones? Isn't this like? The yada yada. Well, all of a sudden at the end of Thrones, they were like, and now this, you know? A little bit of that feeling.

for sure. It also, I think I'm a little bit bumping off the fact that what felt so amazing about the first movie plus half of this movie was that it was like free jazz, but someone else knew all the notes. Like they were following something. And I don't really have any familiarity with the subject matter. So I was just like, I was just getting what I needed to get. And I kind of loved that. There was more for me there if I wanted to read a book or Wikipedia. The last part of this movie felt kind of jammed up in a way that suddenly, and I know this is not. the antithesis of what this project has been, like late period marvel to me. I know what you mean.

In terms of, no, no, there's just so much that you're going to have to take our word for or no. And you start my, I don't want to say you, but like my eyeline started to wander because I'm like, what am I supposed to be focusing on here? What is the story versus all of the stories? I personally just felt so rewarded by the experience that I really do see the 10-hour version of this movie. that is like we can take painful steps

to explain the strategic approaches to attacking. Like even I would agree with you that like the raid on the Emperor's Fortress Globe orb seems to be pretty much like they go on like a, it's like Drew Holiday, Chris Steps, Porzingis, Brown Tatum.

Are they basketball players? I'm not familiar. They put together a hell of a performance against the emperor's forces. Is Bill paying you more? Like... Than you? Do I get a bonus?

If I start being like, they got to take a quarterback at three. Like, if I say that. I did actually... I never mind. My point being is basically, like, I think that they probably could have made a lot more out of,

like, we blew up a mountain to let an electrical sandstorm in. Yeah. But like, I'm glad that they didn't because I didn't want to sit there for three hours while they were like, oh, the sandstorms... It's not.

so much of that. It's that, and again, I just want to stress how much I love this whole thing. I just found it really interesting to basically be just high for half of a movie being like, this is so deeply weird. And it is so weird in its origin in terms of the depth of world building and what mattered to Frank Herbert and all these little details. And then also Denise Villeneuve's devotion to bringing those to life and then bringing them to life with such deep specificity and and I was like this is And his affinity for design I think he's affinity for like if you've seen other

films by him like especially like I think Sean and I were talking about enemy and like the arachnoid kind of gods that are floating over Montreal in that movie like that they have some influence on the harkin and stuff. The vehicles, the harkin and stuff alone. I mean this is a four star film and a 10 star exercise and imagination and visual storytelling.

It is beyond, beyond, beyond. But the feeling that I was getting of like, this is the opposite of group think. There's no fear, because that's the mind killer, in the executive boardrooms here on big-ticket entertainment. And then we get to the part of the movie where it's like, Brolin is alive and there are smugglers. I'm like, since when have, okay,

I didn't know there were smugglers and he was alive. But this is really interesting, because this is a little bit of your TV brain talking. No, no. But I feel like you're not fully getting what I mean because then him showing up and being like, I'm alive. by the way, your dad left you

nuclear armaments in this room and that it's not, I'm not advocating for more detail in the explanation. I don't want that. I love, love, love that all of a sudden Paul's like, they're like, big day for you and it's like, oh really? Yeah, you're fucking swag surfing on a worm today.

Great. I didn't need to see his practice runs. I don't need to see him playing Tony Worm pro rider. I was thinking about that actually because it's like, how do you practice that? Well, you could do some kind of like body flexibility Pilates stuff to like be like, I've got balance. But can you really practice, you can't know what worm riding is like until you ride the worm. What's the really expensive golf simulator that Tim Simons is always trying to get someone to give him for free? Because they have a lot of really fancy technology and then also none at the same time.

So I feel like they could have a worm simulator. It's not out of the question. But I want to be clear. I am not saying I wanted every single T crossed. I just, when it suddenly started moving along the lines of a more engaged TV show type thing. Now we have to go here, he's here, he'll bring you there, and you'll go there. Some of that high-flying magic. The compression bothered you a little bit.

Yeah, it just knocked me out. What do you think? You know, I've thought about this. I haven't read a ton about it. How much do you consider this one long movie, which with one and two? Obviously, they're divided not necessarily as Dune to Still Dune in, like. this is very much made with the same... I'll laugh at any one of those.

They all make me laugh. It's very much like the visual language of the film is lockstep. Greg Frazier shot both films. I watched one again before watching two and two picks up literally moments after one is over. So in some ways, like, you could... You almost have to reassess what the middle act of this film is because it's in fact all the third act of...

I disagree. Okay. I think one of the great things about this series is that I think they are distinct movies. Very, very distinct movies. I think they have different aims. I think they have different influences. I think they have different tones. Like sometime in the minutes between part one and part two, Stilgar got jokes.

Yep. Like he became funny. That wasn't the part that he was necessarily playing in the first movie. Do you think John this was like holding him back? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Oh, my God.

Yeah. I do. Stelagar was like, I have like a tight 10 I'd like to work on. No, it was like Tyrese Maxie during the Hardin season. What's up with all the spitting? Am I right, guys? I think, um, Tyrese Maxie. I just, I had to counterbalance the just really Seltics reference he made a minute ago.

Um, I love that about these movies. I thought that like the storytelling of the action was, was different, you know, and the scale of it. I really like that they seem to have been. different in a way. But you want to talk about some of the performances? Yes.

Last thing though, what might be a tweak on your question is my understanding going in having tried to stay away from a bunch of it was that this was this was Denis Villeneuve's dune.

He was due it, if you will. And that would there be more maybe, you know, the kind of things that people always say. I think they've been very savvy about doing that. I think that there's

some probably anecdotal evidence that people have gotten a little tired of feeling like everything they see is part of a larger puzzle. That's wonderful. And that they, that the stakes are kind of low when it comes to this stuff. I'm talking about like IP Blockbuster's comic book filmmaking. And I think by kind of being like, if you want another one, if people come and see it, we'll make another one.

And I think he's even said with Messiah or the third one, whatever it winds up being, he's going to wait a few years. And it's good because they all are older. I mean, I think it's like 10 years go by. 12 years, I read when I have some late cursory Googling. Yeah, no, I love the fact that he was just like, yeah, I'm making this. But there's no like, well, it could be an ending. It could serve as a series finale.

No, that is not the case for these movies. That said, all of a sudden when this was over and the way that it ended really leaves no doubt that there's a lot more story. Yeah. So that may affect how I was understanding of it because I guess in my mind I was perceiving a little bit more of a concrete end here. here. And maybe my expectations, maybe that's the way I, maybe, you know, you know when your internal odometer is out of step with something when you're like, you're like, oh, when you're like, oh, I thought, there's 10 minutes left.

It's going to end. This is the New Jersey term pike and then it's 7A, you know? Yes. Exit 7A. That's the one for great adventure. I thought we were almost at six. Yes. Yes.

Exactly that. Exactly. Couldn't be better. You've nailed it again. Let's run through some of the cast because I am curious to see what the Hollywood fixer thinks of our generation of stars that are being minted in this movie very much. Tim? I thought he was great.

Yeah. Thought he was great. Convincing physical presence. Sorry, what? Did you think he was a convincing physical presence question mark? As a kangaroo mouse? As a guy who could win a desert war. I think that he is at his worst when he's yelling at people.

Because when he yells... He's using the voice, though. No, when he uses the voice, yeah. I respect. Respect the voice. Got Rampling calling him an abomination. God, she made him, though. Wait, so wait a second.

Hold up, back up. What? You're like, Chani should have known that Tim, that Paul was going to go for two, so to speak. Patrick Mahom style. Yeah. And Charlotte Rampling has like,

your, you're like sympathy for the Benny Jesuit because they made this dude. No, opposite of sympathy. I don't understand why everyone's surprised. Oh, okay. When people tell you who they are, believe them. Okay. A great Benny Jesuit once said that.

Okay. I think, I'm just saying... Who did say that? I forgot. Michelle Obama. She said it on Leap Day four years ago. I think that I just feel like in an era where we are prioritizing direct and honest communication. Are we? Paul, no, Kaya and I are.

Paul is like, let me be clear with you. if I travel south, an interstellar genocide will launch. And she's like, come on. You know what I mean? She's like, get in, loser. We're going swarming. Yeah, right. So they go, and then she's mad.

Similarly, rambling is like, for 90 generations, we've been tinkering with the bloodline in pursuit of a Messiah. The Messiah shows up, and she's like, gross. She's never been, she is not a day one, though. She's like, I'm not even sure I believe in all this stuff. Who? Johnny.

Oh, no, Johnny, yeah. I thought you were talking Reverend Rev. Oh, yeah. Rev. Mo is like, she's got factions within factions. She's like a Redmo underneath the Benny Jets. Chris, you spend more time in the men's rights online forums than I do. Jesus Christ, Greenwald. So I wondered.

Sorry. Is anyone watching this movie being like the lesson of this movie is? Got talked to four Latam journalists. I'm global. Okay, this won't change me at all. Is there an interpretation of this movie where there are like 90 generations of making females magic

and then like gives the water to one man once and he's like, it's a rap? What's the critique? I feel like there's a very strong like men's rights version of this movie that I'm afraid of. Yeah, I'm sure there is. I mean, I think that the political

and social underpinnings of this film are very interesting also since the source text is from the 60s. Yes. And he was, Frank Herbert was clearly a high AF. Yeah. And I think that it's fascinating to think about like both Villeneuve's depiction of frankly, only thinly veiled Islam.

You know, it is, they're using much of the language from it. As did Frank Herbert from what I understand. Exactly. And then, and how much sigh he's putting in his fie is interesting. How much, how much of like otherworldly experiences is this

versus one that has... And just this idea that's like you get everyone in the theater with beautiful stars and an understanding that we all now collectively watch this kind of genre entertainment and it's just like

talking to babies and worm gods and maybe power isn't cool and we can't control radical arms I mean it's heavy. Yeah. I celebrate this. All of this was an answer

to your relatively direct question. Did you like Tim Chaleney? I thought he was great. I think there were a couple times in the movie gets mad where I'm like he's still a little... I think he's supposed to have

some more camel though. Like I think he's supposed to be like are we sure this guy's got the goods? Yeah, I thought he was great. What about Zendaya? I felt like by the end, I love Zendaya, but I feel like she was a little limited

by her still suit. Like not just physically in terms of playing the same beat. They do put her in a spot where she has to stand up and then kneel like 15 times in the last 10 minutes. And kind of make a... You were serious face? Like she's sort of, she's kind of stuck. but considering the movie ends on her

I'm very interested to see what else she can give us Austin Butler So I don't think I'm a fan Is that Is that outside the mainstream? You know it's been an interesting experience with me with him I really like his taste I think he seems like a cool, nice guy

Did you see the clip where he's like I really like listening to In Rainbows? And I also was served and have been sent multiple times a Twitter video of Austin Butler firing a semi-automatic weapon and reloading it at a gun range with an instructor and it's pretty much the scene from once upon a time in Hollywood

where the person helping him is like that's the best acting I've ever seen and the consensus is that he is training for heat too where he will play the Val Kilmer role that seems inevitable that's cool how are you good for you good about that? Yeah everything's coming up Chris

We did it. Are you happy about that? Yeah. It's just a, it really is, it is pretty amazing. I was a little bit skeptical, especially after Ferrari's box office, but it does seem like this is something that a lot of people want to have happen. So maybe it will happen. My thing about him, and I don't have a lot of, I don't, I haven't seen everything that

the guy's been in. And he does seem like he's making really good choices and who he's working with and the types of movies he's doing. The vibe I got was, it was, it felt a little. tryhard to me. And because I don't... I think you have to be try hard in that role. I think so. But here's the two reasons why I was kind of critical of it. Like, the... The way that Villeneuve wanted this character to be is really on tilt and

really, like, perverse and... He's not exactly like a... Psychopathic and shrinking violet in the David Lynch version of it either. No, but it's sting and he's just smirking a lot. This one is much, much darker. and pretty wild. And I think that he was doing the signifiers of it, but I didn't feel any perversity or menace from him.

It's like he was performing it. And the thing that really kind of took me out was that much like he was sort of celebrated and then mocked for doing Yelvis voice, so accurately all the time, he just did Scarsgarde's voice, which I get Stelan Scarsgarsars. He did the exact same voice and accent.

With it related. That's his uncle. Yeah, but he's, Batista's his nephew, too. He didn't do the voice. So this seems like a really weird nitpick to say that just felt like a idea, placeholder of a character cobbled together

from some moves and someone else's voice that lacked, that then robbed it of what I thought it needed to be the villain. And the Benny Jeser were betting on him, too. It was like Caleb Williams and Drake Bay up there. Let's talk about Leah Seidu's role in this, okay? Because she's just like, I accept my assignment.

Like she's like an LBS missionary and she's going to the, she got the worst assignment. Yes. And she's just in the MMA arena that is their everyday life there. And she's hanging out and she's got her little opera glasses,

right? And then later that night, she's like, hey, how are you doing? And he's like, hello, why are you here? Want to put a baby on it? Yeah.

But yeah, she's like, I don't know. It's really cute watching you come to this with seemingly zero knowledge of the Dune story because you're just like, just so, befuddled and charmed by it.

Listen, I am. That's why I kind of love it. I'll say that in Dune, much like life. Because even with the comic book stuff, like, while I think you find it stupid at times, you're like, but I actually know all these different storylines and like what drugs that comic book writers were doing at the time. Look, Dune like Life is really all about worms and boxes. You know what I mean?

Like, that's what it all comes down to in the end. And I can relate to that. And the comic book brain is firing. Like, and maybe that's actually going again. my engagement because I have Googled a little bit because the scariest cover in my spinner rack in my school library was God Emperor of Dune. Oh yeah. With the worm. And then I'm like, oh, I wonder what that is. Is that the next one he's doing? It's not. But if you read it, it's like the fifth or sixth book. And it's just like 10,000 years after the messiah ship of Paul

Atreides, a half Atreides, half worm god rules the universe. And I'm like, oh, okay. I don't think We're going to get many more than three. I think three is fine. I don't know. I realize that we focus more on my criticisms when I... Give me this. Give me more of this. Get fucking weird. The fact that this is, at least so far,

on the same financial performance track as Oppenheimer, I think is a great thing for the movies. I totally agree. I hope that... Obviously, it's Dune. Oppenheimer is Christopher Nolan doing the invention of the nuclear bomb. There's hooks to these things that are huge. But these are the kind of reasons

why like when Warner Brothers is giving Paul Thomas Anderson $100 something million to make what is or may not be Vineland with DiCaprio, I'm like, who cares? It's not my money. Like, you know what I mean? Like it better, I'd rather see that happen than spending $200 million once you're done promoting it on Adam Webb. Two things before we move on. Wakan. Emperor Wachan. Yeah. How many days you think he was on set?

Fewer than Pew. Pugh literally looked like she might be shooting her. stuff in Notting Hill. A hundred percent. But in a cool way, but I was just like, did Pew go to the desert? I don't think she did. Well, I don't think Wachan did either. I think they had a great experience.

I was like, how did he fit all these actors? It's like, well, he just did a day of pickups. Did you, I think that it was a warm laughter, but when when walking, anytime walk and talk, the audience was just kind of laughing. I think, I mean, our audience was very, we're, very psyched for him to be there and be like, ah, you. Yeah. He's just from Brooklyn.

Yeah, I think that before moving on, I think the thing that is really interesting to me about this, not just from an artistic perspective, because Jesus Christ, this guy could cook. And like, that assault on the sand ad at, basically, the spice harvester where they're hiding. And then they throw all the fucking plates at it. Or are you talking about when they're scooting around?

When he saves her before he gets his third of his nine names, that's my other note I do want to come to that he this guy just because when I was Googling like the plot of the book and what he cut and what he kept

and like he just does have a remarkable sense of how to communicate I think he's I think and also I think his relationship to the source material seems to be a really healthy one of like

I obviously have been dying to make this this is a dream project but it's not so close that I have to I can I can manipulate it the way I need to to make the move

I want to make. So there are characters who are cut. The Anya Taylor, Joy, Aaliyah thing is, like, she's much more present in the book or the movie, even in Lynch's movie. That character is 10th.

Yeah, Alicia Witt plays the character. So, yeah, I think Deni is, like, an incredible story. I rewatched the David Lynch version, and I totally forgot that it, that he looked at the same text that DeNe looked at, and he was, like,

the most important way for this movie to begin after Virginia Madsen explains the plot of the entire movie. is to just have a floating space pig barfing spice. It's so wild. That's the Melange, right? That's the, he's the dude that fold space.

He's the navigator. Oh, that's right, the guild navigator. Last note, Chris, like, genuinely, if I was the Hollywood fixer, the only thing, I mean, like, Deney love this, love the vision, love what you've done with the shields. It looks different this time. It's really cool. Can we just talk about names?

Because Paul has nine names, and could we, maybe that could be six. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like as a branding. I think most people know him as Paul. Paul, sure. But they also know him as Ussel. They know him as Maudib.

They know him as the, and I had to Google this, the Kuisat's Hadarak, which sounds like to get Yiddish at the end. They know him as the, what does Javier call him? Well, they call him Mahdi, which is sort of, you know,

the Monsieur Spadeheads know. That's exactly where it comes from. It comes from Monsieur Spade, season one. What does Stilgar call him? He calls him the something with an L? Lisson Al-Galib. Okay.

So, do you think that's a lot? It's a lot of names. I mean, this kind of happens in these stories. They called Duke? How many fucking names did DeNaris have? Mother of Dragons? And like first of her, like, De Neres are. Okay, right.

But that was like, every time they saw her, they would announce them and then they'd move on. Yeah. I feel like we got factions calling him different things. And just on a branding perspective, you could streamline that. Who doesn't like Pulse? You're like so close to being like, what I need is a Vox Explader instead of going to see this film. I'd love to get an efficient piece or like the Wood Stilman thing where it's like I only read literary criticism.

I can't believe that this is my role with this. I love to do it. No, I love to do. And I'm glad to have a healthy debate about it. It's what Kirsten Cinema would have wanted. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the. action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes,

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I think we should just say that we, let's just, let's tease something, and we can talk about it more fully later in the week. Yeah, okay. So Richard Linklater has a documentary on Max right now. Well, if I may, he did only part of it. Okay. So Max has a documentary series called God Save Texas, which is based on a really good book that I read and enjoyed.

By the great nonfiction writer Lawrence Wright. He wrote Going Clear. He wrote The Looming Tower, Longtime New Yorker staff writer. This is a wonderful book that's basically about his chosen home state of Texas both history but also perspective on why it remains fascinating and is much more complicated than many people might think it is from the outside. Because Lawrence Wright's such a creative figure, for this doc, basically, they opened it up to other, to Texas filmmakers to tell their versions of what,

what it is, what Texas is for them. And you and I watched the first episode, which is almost feature length, Doc made by Richard Linklater. In collaboration with Lawrence Wright, he shows up with him, and it's about Linklater's hometown of Huntsville, Texas,

which is also famous or infamous for being the home of many prisons and where Texas executes prisoners on death row. Yes. And has been the setting for fictional and really the setting for several of, of Linklater's most beloved films and you'll see

he basically does a tour of the town where he talks about Dazed and Confused and Boyhood and everybody wants some so yeah that part is incredible but what I loved about this first episode and we can keep a brief here is just it's an incredible marriage of the subject matter which is super serious

and incredibly complex and Linklater at his best but almost pretty I think regularly and routinely has a humanity and empathy that is pretty much going extinct, I think, and is just curious. And you can see him, he plays a huge part

in this episode of the documentary series or in this particular film where he's on camera a lot. He's the narrator. He's driving around Huntsville with Larry Lawrence Wright. He's talking about his mom. He's talking to old friends and teammates, some of whom were fictionalized in his movies. Some of whom have spent time

inside of correctional facilities. And it's just like, it's just an incredible pair of eyes through which to view the world. And so the first one, Hometown Prison, there are three episodes. They're all up on your max service. Hometown Prison is the link later one. We watch that.

There are two subsequent episodes. The first price of oil is made by Alex Stapleton. The third, La Frontera, is made by Ilana, Ilyana Sosa. So we're going to check those out too, but put it on your radar. Yeah, I would definitely recommend it to literally anyone. A couple of bits and bobs. sounds like House the Dragon is coming in June.

I didn't know that. You said on Paramount Plus? On Wednesday's a Peacock. So yeah, House the Dragon returning in the summer. I think it's shaping up to be an interesting, like not quite as Madcap as the past Emmy runs that we've had before where everything is trying to fit in

under the May 31st wire, right? But it's still a busy late spring early summer. Boys, Bear, HOTD, a lot of stuff coming out. Yes. Sugar. Sugar, which we can talk about. That's the Colin Farrell Private Detective Show on Apple. Did you like that trailer? So, I feel...

I think I'm out on trailers. Yeah, I'm on the fence. On trailers. It's nothing to do with the show. I just think that they... I need to accept the fact that, like, the artistry of, like, making trailers... Yeah.

Has... I get fewer and fewer... hits from them and more it's like this is for somebody who leads like literally the entire show explained to them before they even consider watching it. I agree and I think that the sugar trailer

it just puts me, I'm just right in the middle of it because all I want is a modern noir. All I want is an LA private detective show starring Colin Farrell and I love the colors. I think the Brazilian director Fernando Morellis directed the show. I just, I'm in on the visual language and everything.

But there's something I don't fully because like is he a robot or something? I feel like because this is a modern show sold to Apple, it's not going to be okay just being that. There's going to be like a, at the end of the pilot, you find out that, oh, it's, he's escaped from Westworld, or not really, but, like, you know what I mean? Like some, there's going to be some extra.

That would be dope if that happened all the time, even if it was outside of Westworld. Oh, no, it got away from the park. I just feel like, that's how hacks ends. I'm scared there's just one extra ingredient that might set the flavor off of the whole dish. But I'm Otherwise like...

We'll know before. I mean, the whole thing I'm saying is like, I don't think they're really like doing a lot of series now where it's like you have no idea this twist that happens.

You know, like it's pretty much like they have to like be like... You think they're going to tell us? No, but I think the idea is that Colin Farrell maybe is like really good at kicking ass and tries to keep that inside. I mean,

I can relate. So finally a way to like connect with a character. You finally feel seen. Yeah. Sugar's cool. We're definitely going to watch that. But yeah, it seems like there's going to be a glut of stuff. I noted with interest that the first season of House of the Dragon was put up against Lord of the Rings.

The first time you mean? Yes. No, the first season of House of the Dragon that came out like two years ago or whatever. It didn't come out last year and I never said it did. It was up against, it was like sort of purposely put up against L-O-T-R. And now this one is up against the boys, pretty much, I would imagine. I think I feel like you were making a point that I just glossed over which was an important one which is that the past few years were used to no I mean I ran I hit the end of my feed just on meta you know

I was just scrolling scrolling and then I heard you you got to look how many names does Paul have you're like I already know nine does like this guy's got some really dangerous ideas I think he gets a follow um you know many times I have to check it because my my older daughter's on YouTube a lot now and I'm like I'm like, oh, what are you watching? She's like, oh, someone did an animatic of the first song from the musical six. I'm like, great. And does it have an opinion on IVF? She's like, not all the internet is like that.

I'm like, you never know. Because I'm just always, you're told that, like, they're going to get redpilled all the time. Oh, that's what you're worried about is just the red pilling? Yeah. But to be clear, I don't think IVF is a controversial issue. I just mean that, like, I'm worried that they hide. You're worried that it's just going to get slipped into what you think would be normally, like, pretty family-friendly content.

Yeah, like, you know it killed Henry the 8th's wives in musical fashion, like a hordes coming over the border. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Like, that's what's... Anyway, your point was that we got used to the last few years with this glut of shows, all of which we're trying to hit the Emmy window. And while that still exists when possible,

we are at a year instead where people are like, they just got to get the shows out because of strike push. So it might look a little different. Why do we get into some mailback questions? I thought you'd never... Do we have it? I don't think we... So, I mean, this...

is actually a good transition because a healthy chunk of the questions that we got were kind of asking for a little bit of an industry check-in. I'll try and synthesize some of these. But the first one just came from Adam and is like, I'd love an industry check-in. Maybe it needs a newspaper. Adam, you haven't been listening long enough. Sometimes it just doesn't need a newspaper. But how are people feeling? And I'm directing this towards you, Andy. What impact has the continued rise of fast services had, et cetera? I think people are just curious whether or not now you guys have been back at work for a while now. Oh, from that perspective. I think for the purposes of this podcast, you're probably the best person to speak to like the vibe within the industry. Yeah. I mean, Kip also said between COVID

delays, strikes and scheduling, it feels like the length of time between seasons of non-broadcast shows are getting longer than ever. You know, like what's a returning show that you would fast forward production of? I was going to say and or for that. But we got a lot of questions along these lines. I mean, I think it's, it's tough because like the last time we talked about this, I don't know if I was clear enough because I feel like I may have been, I don't know, I feel like it may have been inarticulate about this because there are a lot of good shows coming out and we are going to have things to talk about. And I know we've been, and so sometimes when we bemoan the state of things, we're talking behind the scenes or we're talking like, you know, in a longer window

of time that like we still have a lot that was on the runway and we'll get to enjoy them through the next 10 months, but then what's going to happen in 15, 20 months? Because behind the curtain, it is catastrophically bad. Like, this is not me. spilling personal grievance. This is everyone that I talk to at studios, other writers, whatever. No one has experienced things the way they are experiencing them right now. A mix of instability on a corporate level and fear on a creative level, reduced budgets to order things, and also a very strange recoil from the effects of the strike where this is a lot of this is anecdotal, but people heard us talk about how one of the reasons that the WGA went on strike

was the abuse of a practice of mini-rooms, which is like a pre-greenlight room, which is like, we used to say, go make a pilot, now we'll say, get two of your friends, sit in a room, we'll pay you scale for a few weeks to do more work ahead of it. Those can be really productive. I've been in a few of those that have been some of the best professional experiences I've ever had. They were more codified in the New Deal, and a result of that that I've heard is that they're just not happening anymore. That like now people are saying, if you're lucky enough to have a deal with the studio,

they're saying, well, just write more scripts yourself. Delay it further. Give us more to make a decision on, both so we can get that work more cheaply and so we have more time to understand who we are working for in the next three to six months. And also just the continued like algorithmization

and tech broing of the industry where it's hard to talk about this, because anyone who works in this business is almost by nature, if they're working consistently or doing very well by like American standards. But when you think about who's making money off of these things, how much money they're being made, the decisions made by some of the more tech-oriented companies to just break from decades of tradition,

which was like, you made something good for us and did a good job, you're getting a rich deal to reward you for the work you gave and the profit you made us. And I'm saying, you know, actually we think the IP is more valuable than you are. so someone else will do it. Yeah. If you were a shareholder, would you applaud that decision? Maybe.

But I guess I would just say, everybody should read Mark Harris's thing in the New York Times. He wrote a guest essay called How Bad Can It Get for Hollywood that I think kind of expresses a lot of this in a really fantastic general way. But there was sort of, there was language I was hearing from people who are much more senior to me, like veteran people, studio people, my older agent, all of whom are saying, this is a year of uncertainty. I love the idea of you having like a kid agent too. Oh yeah, like a 30 rock.

Like older agent and then you got like. Well, I, in a tribute to like my stature in this town, I actually have an agent that's three kids standing on each other's shoulder in a trench coat. They're at the Ivy right now having a pudding cup. Saying that 24 is a year of transition and that this town is built to buy and sell and will be back to business as usual in 25. And I've heard other like more veteran, like real veteran

and showrunners saying, like, yeah, there are these moments like this, and there have been two or three before. But then you read these stories, and all of a sudden this idea that 25 is back to business has now, I think, been codified, is everyone just off of the text that I got from? Like, I don't know if this is true.

I just feel like everyone has heard this from someone they trust. That it's like, see in 25. Yeah, great. Okay, we're back. Are we? Yeah. I don't know. There were two things that jumped out at me

from recent felony newsletters when I'm hearing, which you should definitely be subscribed. to via Puck, and Matt obviously does the town podcast for the Ringer Podcasts. And two things jumped out. One, he talked with Ben Thompson recently, I believe, on the town. Ben does Tretaquery. He is an incredible thinker when it comes to the merging of technology with practically

everything else. Ben talked a lot about Apple and about what the fucking point is of them making shows and movies when they kind of don't need to and they're not actually like making much money from them. And Ben was like, it's broadly part of their services strategy so that they're not overreliant on hardware. It allows them to sell people things within iPhones as the iPhone purchasing arc flattens out a little bit. And he was like, look, Vision Pro is coming and watching Apple TV in Vision Pro is actually a pretty interesting step forward in the television experience. And so I took that piece and then a piece of feedback that I believe was in the column.

this last like maybe on Sunday night which was somebody writing in somebody who's in the industry anonymously writing in and talking about Dan Lynn replacing Scott Stuber at Netflix and I think it was basically kind of and if I'm getting this wrong

and it was in something else I apologize I'm just sort of going this off memory but it was essentially about like you know Netflix's relationship to like quality programming and quality films and they're like you're kind of misunderstanding like

a corporation they don't think about it in terms of like quality. They think about it in terms of success or not successful. And it's like, it's qualitative character is sort of besides the point. And you can't assign like aesthetic values to something that is like so purely almost mathematical essentially. And it's like,

and don't take it personally either. I mean, like it's giving people what they say they want. And when you look at the whatever version of the Nielsen ratings or like the analytics of what goes, does, well on Netflix, it's not dark. You know, it's not any of their complicated prestige programming that you think it might be. It's the stuff that would have been, you know, a network procedural five years ago and is now on Netflix. So I tell these two basically taken from Matt Bellany's work anecdotes to say, I think the thing that I've noticed the most is that, like, we are essentially talking about technology companies.

Yes. And the idea that there would be levels of contraction or expansion. but that ultimately, like, creative executives would sort of have the quote-unquote town's best interests at heart and are thinking about continuing a legacy that goes back 100 years and is basically the bedrock of the California economy, to say nothing of American cultural soft power and all this stuff. It's not really, that's not really happening anymore. Yeah. I think that's incredibly depressing, very well said, and sadly likely true. It's about making content for a vision pro or continuing to like stop churn. and stop password sharing or whatever it is.

Yeah, I mean, the greatest artists of our time, and as well as the greatest executives, because there are incredibly creative, committed, brave executives. What makes them great is not always their highs. It's the chances they took on what might be uncharitably considered their lows. And if you look at that on an efficiency document in Palo Alto, that's an inefficiency that are a redundancy.

Like that's not worth it. So that is trickling down. There's no question about that. Now, still good things can be made. And there are passionate people who are convincing their bosses that, you know, that actually what we get out of this might not be quantifiable in a familiar way, but is adding value, blah, blah, blah. We just spent however long we spent talking about Dune, which is absolutely a triumph of

artistic expression and risk-taking and also probably meets the, the bottom line of the larger company. So this isn't all doom saying, but I think that your point is right. And I think one of the reasons why I recommend the Mark Harris piece is because the spirit of it is right, which is to say, instead of saying,

are we ever going to get back to work, back to the old way, look at it, and I think he's quite optimistic in a way that I really wish that I could share, look at it the way people looked at American movie industry in the 60s and 70s and was like,

well, what's going on here? Let's just do this instead. And instead of following and pining and looking backwards, grab the reins and try to take it in a different direction. Yeah, there's a couple of other interesting, more granular questions about the state of the industry. For instance, I thought this one from Aaron, just because it's also Shogun related, was kind of interesting. Do you think that the belt tightening going on will reduce the number of expensive limited series

we have been inundated with during the streaming big spending phase? Somewhat related would great numbers for Shogun make them more likely to try and continue that show in a second season. Now, I have not watched ahead on Shogun, so I don't know how Shogun ends, but Shogun is working from clearly established source material. And source material based on history. Yes. So I think the Gambit was we are adapting the James Clavel novel and somewhat nodding to the miniseries, right? So I don't think they would – I don't know what Shogun would have to be to make them do more Shogun necessarily. I think that they're trying to tell a very finite story here.

But it's relevant to the previous question, which is to say that FX has a deserved reputation for being creative executives and being good at both halves of that statement, that sentence. I think in a perfect world for them, they would take the lessons of Shogun's success. And again, we don't actually have hard data as to how successful it is or what even that means in 2024. But anecdotally, everybody we know loves it. So it must be a... No, but honestly, anecdotally, everybody we know does love it. It's true. And I think that's significant.

and I think that was significant to the bright boys and girls at FX. I think that their preferred method of processing that data would be, okay, we've connected with something. Our taste has connected with what the audience wants, and this can lead us forward as opposed to just spiraling and staying here. Does this mean more historical epics? Maybe. Does this mean more massively invested in big-ticket event series?

Yes. But what do I know? I mean, FX is a doing its best to stay afloat artistic subsidiary of the Walt Disney company. Right. And if there is a spinoff show about the ways of the samurai warrior post-English whatever, like, I'm sure they're going to at least start to walk down it. They're going to start to explore it. So FX was the first thing that I thought of with this next question, which was from Tracy.

What do you think of as a must-watch show that came out between 2010 and 2020, which is roughly the amount of time we've been podcasting about television that given the current development landscape you don't think would get made now. I had a quick answer for this, some of which originated from FX, but, and I could be wrong.

This was actually just my like snap reaction. I do wonder whether or not we're going to see any more like it's always sunny in Philadelphia, workaholics, Comedy Central stuff like Detroiters and Broad City, Max. I think, you know, Southside was maybe the last

of this kind of show, which is a sitcom, a cable sitcom or a streaming sitcom that is pure vibes and doesn't have like a hook or a narrative. Like even Hacks has like will they or won't they like energy to it of, you know, is, is this relationship going to keep going with this writer and this comedian? And the shows that I just listed are open-ended, more or less episodic. pure vibes kinds of shows which I fucking love

like it's always so much fun but I almost go as far as a curve is like this you know like it curb is perhaps the apex of this but I do feel like more and more now like shows even comedies seem to need to have like

a very durable hook beyond just like people being funny hanging out but what's a successful comedy right What's a successful comedy? Is it the bear? The Emmy winner for Best Comedy? So I think your point is very well made. And I think you're right.

I also don't think Broad City, Detroiters, Southside, or workaholics were especially big hits. I mean, Sunny, I think, has obviously become this behemoth and is essentially like the live action Simpsons of our second half of our lives here. But, you know. I love the examples that you brought up. I would bring them up as well, but from a different perspective, which is to say that one of the last, One of the absolute biggest boneheaded blunders of the last decade is certain companies, particularly paramount, complete abdication of its successful cable channels and brands. MTV and Comedy Central meant something to our generation and made good content and good quality. And we understood what it was.

And in a crowded landscape, when messiahs have nine names, like, that's not a small thing. You know what I mean? The fact that MTV is just ridiculousness for 24 hours, and I don't even mean that as a joke. That's all they air is a crime. But one of the things that was a success story, truly, I think it was a success story in the last 15 years, was when Kent Alterman was running Comedy Central, and he was running it with an eye on market inefficiencies, the same way that John Landgraf has run FX. And by that, I mean, he was scouting, rabidly scouting, the next generation.

of very, very funny people who might have something to say and might not cost so much and could build an audience as opposed to bring an audience. And that's how you get Key and Peel. That's how you get Kroll Show. That's how you get Amy Schumer.

That's how you get Detroiters. Everything, Broad City, everything that you're mentioning. All of those are successes. All of those were successes when they were on the air and they were long-tail successes for reruns and YouTube clips and streaming. And then obviously...

And influential to another generation of comics and writers. We didn't suddenly stop producing funny people in 2018 or whatever, when Comedy Central stopped doing this, it just became not a priority of the company. And so now we're in this place where, again, I think a smart or nimble player in this world might say, hey, we can't compete gun for gun with Apple and Netflix,

but we can be smarter and we can be more creative and we can be more in touch with the creative community or the community community and give them a chance to make something. But everyone seems to be in this zero-sum arms race. Yeah. I mean, I even think Gemstones is a good example of this where I love Gemstones and it is very funny, but Gemstones is equally a family drama and also has like elements of action. Oh, yeah.

So like it's, I almost think it's very educational to look at something like Genstones is just clearly successfully for HPO. And a lot of that has to do with price point and stuff as well as anything else. But is like it's not just those guys like jerking around like pretending to be. Like, they take it pretty seriously for a comedy. And the filmmaking, for sure. Yeah. But I am stuck on this idea that, like, Tim Robinson getting the cynicure to do, I think you should leave just somewhere in a corner, an unattended to corner of Netflix,

is silly when there should be a whole ecosystem of brilliant weirdos making something. But I don't know if Paramount's global. But I don't even know if I think you should leave if it doesn't, if it's not the engine of five of the most used memes of the last 10 years, if that stays. Like, I think it's social, like, applications are almost more valuable than, like, the views it gets. But this is what I mean. I just, I think that, what are the goals? I don't know. And so if the goal... Obviously, not just, like, five characters who are really funny who hang out a lot. Right. But also 15 years ago, the goal of a network would be like, we want to be in business with creative good people that can grow and grab an audience and give us an identity. And that community and our goodwill with them will open up doors for other people to be in business. with, like AMC being like, hey, geniuses, you've got scripts that HBO won't make, we'll make

them. Yeah. And they did. And it changed everything for them as well as the people involved in those shows. Paramount Global's current strategy seems to be like, let's pour all our money into big, big star things so someone will buy us. And so being like, let's go down to the Elysian theater, you know, in Frogtown and be like, and scout the three funniest people.

I don't really see how that translates to the, the service. Did you see Shari Redstone at the May Martin show? Right. You know what I mean? Again, I'm not saying that that pipeline was like one of our most natural and precious resources. Yeah, I know what you mean. But what does that, what does that have to say to these companies' goals anymore? That's out of whack.

The FX piece that I was sort of alluded to, the FX piece. And Sunny was really what I was thinking of. But also wonder about the sort of viability of stuff like Sons of very. Anarchy, Americans, the original conception of Justified. Yeah. Shows that don't necessarily have a screaming train coming down the tracks that is the endpoint and is like the like... No, these are valuable. You think they are?

So we had so many questions about multi-season... No, no. Guys, people only want hospital shows and cop shows. The TV industry is Jack Donegie in the first season of 30 Rock. that they're the best idea is to make it 2007 again I noted with interest that Justi Machado is doing a Netflix hospital show for Carlton Cues. This is huge, yes. You correctly pointed this out. Carlton Cues is making Netflix's

Grey's Anatomy. Is it Netflix? Yeah. It's Netflix. Their first kind of like, hey, we're just making Grace Anatomy. And that's what everybody wants. And we're not, I'm not just saying like Peacock. I'm saying FX wants this. I'm saying HBO wants their version of this. We're bringing it back, baby. People just want TV to be TV. And I like TV.

I think that's fine. But, yeah, that's... The examples you used are a little more complicated because they weren't just... I mean, the Americans came out of a time when... And we were still interested in ongoing series and getting people to sign seven-season contracts at the beginning. But it was defiantly being like, no, no, but we are not a cops and robbers show. This is a show about the robbers. Right.

And why they're married to each other. That's a little bit different. Why don't we put a pin in it there? Because a lot of the rest of the questions are a little bit more fun. They're a little bit more scattered across our tastes and personal lives. Are you going to ask the one about which one of us would win in a race? You coward. Ask that question.

I think you're better over distance, but I don't know. No, you win. That's the beauty of it. Yeah. I think in a 40 I might beat you. You would beat me. Yeah. But you could run then for another five hours.

I would die. Your heart would explode with little nicotine coming out of your ears. Your understanding of Zin pouches is my favorite thing. It's like, is it like a tea bag?

Thanks to Kaii McMullen for producing us today. We're going to be back in just 48 hours where we will be recording about Shogun episode three, have a lot more questions to answer from our mailbag

and maybe we'll talk a little bit of like just where A.G is on the Oscar race because that's coming up this weekend too. Let's make this the number one podcast in Mauritius. We can. Talk to you guys soon.