The Watch - Ebon Moss-Bachrach on 'Andor' Episode 5

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Chris and Andy check in briefly with how they are feeling about 'The Rings of Power' (1:00). Then, they talk about the latest episode of 'Andor' (17:08), before being joined by Ebon Moss-Bachrach to talk about his role in the show (27:48) and his other breakout role this year in 'The Bear' (41:54). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Ebon Moss-Bachrach Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He won't stop. showing me his tattoos. It's Andy Greenwald. You're one to talk. You're one to talk, young man. I got a couple of imperial jailhouse tats, just like my guy, I've been Moss backg. Who is on the watch podcast today? We're going to be talking to him about Andor. We're going to be talking to him about the bear. What a great hang. It was really nice to talk to him. He's having quite a year. Yeah, and he even talked about Serpico. He did. Great guy. He was not in Serpico, although a boy can dream.

Andy, it's fantastic to see you today. Let's run through a couple of things before we get into the fourth episode of Andor. First of all, are you now willing to apologize to the dragon community for your takes on House of the Dragon? Just kidding. Don't want to talk about House of the Dragon. No, I wanted to chat a little bit about...

Do you think the dragons are mad at me? I don't think the dragons are mad at me. I don't think that they're real, so I don't think that they're... Whoa. Does Mallory know you don't think they're real? No, I don't think we need to belabor house of the dragon, but I did want to mention, Yeah. Did you know that the sixth episode of Rings of Power is a fucking banger? Yeah, I've been told that.

It's a big battle, right? I'm going to check it out. Yeah, it was real good, man. Like, I see, one thing that I wanted to mention to you, and this is really a spoiler, but I feel like in the Hobbit movies, like the later joints, like I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I like going to the movies and seeing hobbits. I don't know what it's up with me. It's not like a really big point of scholarship for me,

but like I find those movies entertaining. In the later Hobbit movies, I feel like... The later Hobbit movies. I just need a second. Yeah, God. Legolas, like his, his like battle technique

started to like really divorce from reality. That like... Right. It used to be a really grounded elf, you know? And then I felt like he started just like surfing on elephant tusks and doing like zero,

like 4G kick turns in the air and shooting four hours at once. So it was really cool to see Galadriel get back to basics. You know what I mean? And just be hanging off of a horse in a weird way. Like that's enough. Yeah. Frankly, that is enough. We have really...

Like, no one can do that. So go ahead and get your rocks off that way. Was Legolas in the Hobbit movies too? Yeah, man. They cut the check for Orlando? Orlando did like just 15 straight years of Legolas. He had like one, he did Elizabeth Town, and then he just was like an elf for 15 years. That is, that's a tough beat.

I mean, I think he's well paid for it. He's a very handsome man. He's, I hope, having a happy life with Katie Perry, but that is a weird career. But I know I sometimes write you letters from Taboo Island. Consider this a sort of scroll from Middle Earth, just letting you know the water's still warm. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. As you know, that my thing with the Tolkien verse was always versimilitude.

You know, where I was just like, my understanding of elves, great, great bowman, you know, good at hanging off of horses. But that's the extent of it. And fashioning jewelry, right? Oh, did they make the rings? Is that what the show's about? Yeah, I think that they wind up being the chief architects of the downfall of Middle Earth because they built, made those rings, right?

That's a bummer. They seem really invested in cultivating Middle Earth from my understanding of three episodes of rings of power. I know, I just, I'm springing this on you. I didn't mention it, but I just got done reading this Hollywood Reporter article. Did you read about, did you get a chance to check this out? So it's a THR article that's essentially about the bakeoff that led to Amazon getting the show, but has some cool tidbits about HBO essentially pitching or reportedly pitching.

We would just, their pitch was we would remake the Peter Jackson movies. Like, we would just do that as an HBO show. The Rousseau's pitching an Aragorn show. Netflix pitching an MCU-I's like every character gets their own series and then they come together for adventures so get like that worked great for the defenders so no notes go on

and then and then these two guys JD Payne and Patrick McKay come through and they're like this series the five season pitch is the five minute monologue that Kate Blanchet gives in the beginning of the first Peter Jackson movie that that whole age so it's just kind of it's kind of an interesting

behind the scenes look they're already well into second season production, I guess. Do you know the times, I know that people are mostly work from home these days, but you know when you're like, worked, did work in an office and you get there a little early and you're like, I'll be the first one there, it'll be quiet. Like, I can get some stuff done. Yeah. And then there's someone who never has a case of the Mondays, who has the pot of coffee

already brewing and wants to chat. That's what you're pulling on me today. Yeah, that's because Chris had the opportunity to like watch and or early, not from a screener, he just woke up and watched this morning. and so I've been watching it, and now we're going to do a podcast about it. But during this hour, I guess Chris was just reading the trades. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like getting a shoe shine? Well, I also, can I mention one more thing? Because I don't want people to think that we've just thrown our lot in with big fantasy here. You know, I think that's not people's concern, but please continue the bit. There is a show right now on a, I guess, relatively obscure streamer called Britbox, which a lot of people may have not heard of, but it is essentially like a streaming platform where you can get first run BBC shows show up there when they first come to the States.

Sometimes there's also a lot of library stuff. So one of our NFL writers, Danny Kelly, made a comment last night that this is where he goes to watch Shetland. You know, like there's a lot of good British mysteries on this streamer, but they just put up a show that I had noticed a couple of months ago when it was airing in England getting really astonishing reviews. So I was very excited for it to finally come here. It's called Sherwood. and god damn if those those crazy kids over in the uk just still make make really good mysteries this is about a murder that happens in nottingham in the in contemporary times that echoes back to the 1984 minor strike which is weirdly like a historical pet project of mine like i'm very fascinated by

that strike uh david peace who wrote the red riding trilogy and and a bunch of other great books has a novel called Gb 84 that I think is a masterpiece. And so I was very fascinated by the subject matter in the first place, but this has David Morrissey, Leslie Manville, who people may have seen in Phantom Thread. And Joanna Frog from Downton Abbey plays a Tory counselor running for election. And it's basically like murder mystery, historical drama, political thriller, all rolled into one. Like it's really great.

Six episodes, it's on BritBox. I watched the first one. I thought it was fantastic. So is Britbox, this is just me being servicing, and I actually don't know. Is Britbox a subscription service? Do you get an app on your Apple TV or whatever? It's like eight bucks a month. And, you know, but like I think you can get it on your Apple TV or you can watch it on

your desktop. But, you know, I just want to let people know. I'm out here scouting. I wish it was a box. I wish it was actually a box. Oh, like, stuned with a union jack. Of like biscuits and you open it up and like, yeah. Yes, it's a biscuit tin that can also give you crime serials.

I think that would be great. Since we're doing some housekeeping stuff, I realized we last week passionately cheered on and celebrated the release of our friend Waugh's book. Yeah. I feel like we said it quickly. So I want to say again, our friend Wasu, H-U-A-H-S-U, New Yorker writer, great guy. His book's memoir, Stay True, is out now. Read the New York Times Review. It's a rave.

We loved it. I realize when we toss off things that we recommend, we should say it slowly. It's like when you leave a voicemail and you repeat your number, but then I also just outed myself as a sociopath because I leave voicemails. That may be the most dated thing that I've ever said on this podcast. Please start leaving me voicemails where you also leave your number with me. Yes. Well, look, like, here's what's crazy.

This is not crazy at all. Let me walk that back. You don't know my number. Yes, I do. I actually know it right. I would have Kaya beep it out right now. You have had the same number since college? No, no. I didn't get my first cell phone until after college, which is dating me almost as much as voicemails.

You've had the same number since early BK. I've had this number since probably 2003. I know your number by heart. You do? Yeah. Am I your emergency contact? No, I just do it. It's something. Because I think we used to talk on the phone more. Like back in the early 2000s, I think you would just holler. And I would have to like, sometimes I'd have to do that at a pay phone, you know? Well, you used to, will you change your number when you moved to L.A. You got a new number. You have an L.A. number now. at that Cheapack number still. Actually, it was a Bobby Eiger number that I got when I first meet there. Do you think, no, that was like an ABC Capital Cities number. That was like before the Disney acquisition. That's right.

Steve McPherson, bless me. It was Steve McPherson number. Chris, I'm not going to put you on the spot too much as much as you just did me with your deep dive into the history of Lord of the Rings as an IP for sale in Hollywood. But okay, so you're at the doctor, not like major surgery, you know, but like you got to fill something out. And obviously your fantastic wife is your emergency contact. Like, how far do you scroll down before you get to me is the guy that you want to call in case something goes wrong? Top three.

That's nice. Yeah. Top three, excluding wife. Okay. I appreciate the caveat. Yeah. So I probably maybe top three, top four. You know, but you're a busy guy.

Like, I don't want to like, I don't want to like, I don't. want to, I don't want to weigh on you, you know? I can imagine my, my dilemma when I'd be like, oh, Chris is in cardiac arrest, but taking a general. Yeah. I've got six more episodes of the patient to get through. Yeah, plus chatting with the gang at 824. Yeah, you know, I'm going to call fantasy. Yeah. I'm going to see if he's avail. And then Sean's like, I'm in 824. Exactly. Sean's the one really having that meeting. Can I just, this is also kind of a later gram of a news flash, but I did have a very nostalgic and invigorating experience last night. You seem invigorated.

I saw Nas and Wu-Zang clan and Buster Rhymes at the Hollywood Bowl. You need to not use NPR voice when you say that. How am I supposed to say it? Like they're selling Rose. Like, we have to lean into this, you know. Nas and the Wu-Tang clan. We're at the Hollywood Bowl. God's Son performed a stirring medley, including the street classic major look.

Did he play the underrated hit Thiefs theme, which I've always enjoyed? You know, what really connected with the crowd of 40-somethings was his stirring rendition of Uchiwali. Oh, oh, yes, of course. This is good for us. Uchi bang bang, yeah. I just, well, yes, that's the call and response. It was pretty incredible. It was pretty awesome.

I am not a good authority on this because I haven't gone to many concerts in the last few years, certainly, not even pre-pandemic. But I have to say, seeing these like absolute titans of our youth, like high school college, become these like esteemed legacy acts was kind of moving. Like everybody looked incredible. Like good. Everybody in Wu Tang looked fantastic. They've been moisturizing.

They seem happy. You know, they've really figured out, like the last time I saw Wu Tang Clan, there were 45 people on stage. Right. And I believe only some of them were in Wu Tang Clan. And I'm not even saying like Shahim the Rugged Child was there. Like, I think it went a lot deeper than we ever realized in the credits on stage.

For sure. But, you know, they run a tighter ship now, and they have like, there's video stuff, there were bees. They've updated, like, yeah, was there a lot of footage played from, like, King of New York and Scarface? Yes. But also, a little Walter White, I'm the Man Who Knocks, which was a nod to the way prestige television is kind of taken over from crime cinema in a lot of ways. Chris, the guests they brought out, Jada kiss was there, Mary J. Blige was there, L.L. was there. Red Man came out. Red Man looking fantastic. I just, I'm so happy for these guys.

I was really happy. I wonder, does Red Man live in Los Angeles now, or do you think he still stays in Jersey? I would say he 100% stays in Jersey. I would say he was enjoying, you know, he got the John McLean call, come out to the coast, have a few laughs. Oh, yeah. And I think it was like a one-night thing. But it was kind of amazing to sit there and being like, wow, like, oh, okay, so here's another flex that I would never do. All of the rappers on stage, including Buster Rhymes, who, you know, has, he's not as nimble.

as he once was, let's say. Sure. Who among us? Yeah. But his friendship with Spliff Star, really an inspiration for men aging, you know, into their 40s and 50s and staying true to each other. Wow. There was a moment when Spliff Star was like, I love this man Buster Rhymes. And I was like, yeah, you do. Yeah, your mortgage broker does too.

Just that they performed, like when Nas was playing tracks from Ilmatic, a record I remembered I was given by my parents for Hanukkah, 1994. They went to Sam Goody and bought that for me. So shout out to mom and dad. They performed these tracks in front of video footage of them in the 90s. And I feel like that's tough. But it was okay. Like they still look pretty good.

And in some cases, people look better than they did that, you know. Veganism is a hell of the thing. It was delightful. The only other note I have is that, you know, one of our favorites, the Wu-Tang affiliate, Capadana was there, which is great. Little gray in his beard. but otherwise fine. Most of the clan had costume changes.

Like they all began in like leather woo-affiliated jackets, which were for sale for probably like $2,000 at the merch stand next to the rosé counter. But when they returned, they each did a, you know, more like appropriate to their own personality. Individually tailored outfits, yeah. Change, which included Ghostface wearing at one point a white fur-lined bathrobe and then later came back with like a bejeweled red Michael Jackson

jacket. It was terrific. But Kappa, he didn't get the memo about the wardrobe changes. He just stayed in his jacket. Oh, okay. And I kind of respect that. Like, if I, you're talking to someone who, if you get, like, on a plane, if they give you something, you know, like, if you're, like, in premium plus and they're like, here's an eye mask for if you fall asleep, I have them still. You know what I mean? I feel like that's, that's kind of a healthy way to live life. Like, if they give you a jacket or anything, take it, because they might not give you another one, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I think Capit, like, also like, Capadonna probably, with all due respect, is the guy in the Wu-Tang Clan that needs to wear a jacket that identifies that he's in the Wu-Tang Clan. Do you know what I mean? I would recognize Rayquan and ghostface a method man on the street. Inspect the deck even, but like Kappa, I might need a little help. Last thing. Did you know, I feel like everyone knew this, but I didn't. But like, obviously, the gaping hole, the center of the Wu-Tang clan is the loss of old dirty bastard.

Yes. Did you know that his son is touring with the group? I didn't. His son, young dirty bastard. No. Who looks like him and sounds like him. And I was going to say had more energy than everyone else, but that's because he is half the age of everyone else on stage.

YDB? Yes. Wow. How was the traffic getting in and now Hollywood Bowl? It's always the hurdle for me. It's always the obstacle. Thanks for asking. Well, on the plus side, I called an Uber quickly and Spliff Star was already there.

So he got me. Sorry. Okay. Sorry. That's not okay. It was as expected. It was as expected. But it was a very pleasant, I don't know. There's a version of the world where you're like, where you see a punk band play a festival or a seated thing and you're like, oh, man, everybody gets old. But then when you're also old, I was like, it's so nice that they got to get old and age gracefully. And they seem very happy about everything. It was a very nice evening. Should we talk about Andor, the fifth episode? Speaking about things I'm happy about that are graceful. So last week when I talked to you about four, I was like, what do you think it is like for people who saw the first three and then had a week because we were media elites and we got to watch the first four. But we waited with everybody for this one.

And I fired it up this morning. You fired it up. This is not unlike what the second episode was like in its relationship to the three episode arc that those first batch of episodes told. I think that it is very much a setting the scene for what I would imagine is a large set piece happening in the third episode, which would be the robbing of this garrison. Spoilers, obviously, for the fifth episode of Andor going forward. That being said, just like, they're still just flexing out here. Like, it's just like the scenes between Evan Moss Backrock and Diego Luna are fantastic. Evan, who we have on the show, has just got like two or three great scenes. I love that they're still. with this guy, this disgraced security agent who's now living with his mother and trying to get a job from his uncle. Like the amount of like long-tail storytelling that this show does is still like jaw-dropping. Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right to mention the structure here because one thing that Tony Gilroy and now, you know, including his brother Dan Gilroy, who's a great filmmaker in his own right, who's writing, who's the credited writer on this, this run of episodes, although I'm sure Tony touched everything that went out.

Like, it's a masterclass and structure, too. You know, they are not reinventing any type of wheel or even a hollow wheel or space wheel. Like, we know what the show is, you know, in a way that I find very comforting. You're right. Like, it's just going to be these three episode arcs of different moments in Andor's life and, you know, the slow build towards what will inevitably be some kind of giant explosion or release. But, like, the style and the intelligence and the thoughtfulness that goes. goes into it. And you're mentioning our time with Cyril, right, is the name of our... Yeah. Yeah.

This is a triumph to me that he spends this episode being browbeaten by his mother eating space cereal with blue milk. Like, it is so psychologically revealing. It's also incredibly funny and unexpected and unlike anything else we've ever seen in Star Wars. And you think about the various things that the Gilroy brothers, let's say. say, are maestros of. And when we talked to Tony the other week, we were like, you're the poet laureate of jargon bullshit, which is still true, 100% still true. But he is also so keenly locked in to what motivates people. And that's not limited just to the heroes. Because as you said, like Eben's character has a fantastic origin story that's really just a few sentences

that tell you everything you need to know. And as to why he's doing what he's doing, Alex Lothar's character has a similar thing where you can understand that he's approaching rebellion from an almost intellectual and moral standpoint which is not something we've really seen before. He's like occupy the empire.

Slash Alexander Hamilton without the rapping and although I would also want to watch that show. But on the flip side of it, there's a moment that might kind of be a throwaway and I realize I said this to Evan too and I'm going to continue with this. I'm having trouble with the Star Wars names.

I've just seen the people and the actors. But the other, Denise Goff is the blonde-haired security person who is sniffing out the rebellion, her rival, you know, they had kind of a standoff within the thing, he's now gone down to Phoenix. He has a relatively small scene where he's like, do you want to stay in this hotel? And the guy that he's talking to is like, could I, I will, but could I be a prefect? I know you're not going to pay me more, but that's a better title. And the kind of corrosive and omnipresent nature of ambition here. Yeah, and he's like, go ahead and wear a ball gown. It doesn't

matter to me as long as you do get this all set up. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's a, it's a masterclass of scene work because it's just A, B, A, B, done. And it's kind of, you get a little personality. It's fun. It's punchy. But it's also a window. Everything is an opportunity to have a window into what makes people behave in certain ways. And this guy who wants to be a prefect, he doesn't want to be a Sith Lord. You know, he just wants to be. Yeah, let's get a promotion. He just wants to have more standing that he has. And I am not, we're not talking about House the Dragon, but I will say that the way that ambition for power is allowed to play out here in small human moments as opposed to, hey, it's been 10 years, still want the throne is telling.

Don't even have to compare it to that. You compare it to other Star Wars. So the thing that leapt out at me in Evans' two sort of major scenes. One is when he's showing Cassie and his jail tattoos, essentially, like the places, like the different facilities he's had to stay in and then basically a gang tattoo for the hand. And he says the line that winds up becoming the title of the episode, which is that the Axford gets the tree remembers or, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and then he has this speech a little later on after he and Cassian have had a conflict and Val tries to get him to, you know, she's like, she's like, you have to basically make this right before we go into this major operation. And he goes up to him and he get, you know, you're waiting. You're waiting.

you're like, okay, here comes the personal trauma at the heart of this guy joining the rebellion. Everything in Star Wars, in most storytelling, but in Star Wars especially, has to be rooted in like what this place, what they took for me, I was just a simple farmer and then blah, blah, blah. And it is that.

You know, he is basically like, they hounded my brother into suicide. And we were just farmers. And the way he even says that, where he's just like, for centuries, we were farmers. And they took that from us. And he's like, I think,

what does he say something? like it's hate, but it's beyond that now. Yeah, he doesn't have a word for it. That's fucking awesome. That's great. It's three sentences. We don't have to do a whole preamble. He doesn't start getting choked up while looking at a campfire. He just goes over to this guy that he has to go apologize to in some capacity and explains just enough for the viewer to kind of get that outlines of who this character is.

And it's just great writing. Everything is just a little bit smarter than we're used to seeing. Like the moment when the lieutenant, the inside man on Aldani. Yeah, Gorn, yeah. basically, you know, marionettes his men into asking for what he wants them to do anyway, you know, that he's giving them extra work. And then they're like, please, sir, like, it would be good for morale if we could just see this famous interstellar light show. It's really the only reason why we're here.

And he grudgingly says, fine, but get it together. And then, you know, you see his face as he walks away. There's, you know, there's a simpler way to do that scene or not even to show the scene at all. But giving us that detail gives us insight into the characters, into the stakes of what we're dealing with, and just makes us feel connected to it. Because that's the other thing. The great writers, especially, and not just the great writers, the great screenwriters, can do micro and macro at the same time. This show is about the rebellion. And there's these little moments like Denise Goff's security character, you know, figuring it out, that scene with her lieutenant, who's also a great character.

And they're like, it's too random to be random. and she's clearly popping space amphetamines to get through it. Yeah, she's doing space Adderall. But she's like beginning to see the broader strokes here. And there's the great line that Val has about like everyone has their own rebellion. You know, so we are telling the story that was the log line in the Walt Disney company's earnings report that the show is going to be. It's doing it.

Yeah. But I am so dialed into this Aldani mission. I really, really want everyone to survive and do not believe that they will. and that's harder to do than you'd think, you know, to be able to advance both stories at the same time, to be minding the larger store, but really paying attention to the individual transaction. And that's why you feel so, I feel, so locked in episode after episode of the show. Should we get into our interview with Evan Moss Packer? Yes, I did want to ask one.

I did want to just say one last thing. There's one other plot line that we haven't mentioned today, which is, you know, I was going to say our century, but this is still a long, long time ago. But a century's great love story between Mon Mothma and Perrin. Oh, yeah. Like, if that was just a show on Britbox, I would watch it. Yeah, a senator and her, and her, like, playboy husband who doesn't really, like, want to be in this marriage anymore, yeah.

There's just a tendency in all of these stories, whether they're IP stories or prequels or what have you, for heroes, certainly not the primary hero, to be good. You know, or just to be, it would be so much easier to have presented a Mon Mothma that was still the hero that we saw in the background of the other movies and leave it be. But Genevieve O'Reilly's phenomenal in this. And like giving her so many small complications, so many frustrations, quotidian frustrations, marital frustrations, family frustrations. It just makes her a fascinating character. And it turns those scenes into scenes I want to watch, not just exposition.

But yeah, we should get into this interview because in addition to being a great guy and giving us a lot of stuff about the bear, I mean, there's a Star Wars Easter egg in this interview that kind of blew us away. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's like, I don't think, I don't know that we get aggregated very much,

but there's an incredible little tidbit coming up. So I hope everybody digs in for this Evan Moss backrack interview. He's obviously had basically the best 2022 you possibly can as a working actor. Him and Aaron Judge. Him and Aaron Judge. That's right. The New Yorkers of the year.

But he interrupts my television a lot less than Aaron Judge. We're always happy to see him on TV. Andy, we will do, are we going to do Monday? We're going to do, even though it's a holiday, we could do Monday or we could do Tuesday. It's really, the world is our oyster. It's great to see you. This is what happens when we're left to our own devices. Well, I'm going to be in Philadelphia, so it's just like, I let it rip when it's there.

You know, it's East Coast time. Okay. And you know what? I'd love to do a podcast with you on Monday. I'll just say it right into the mic. I'm not, I'm not scared. We were produced as always by Kai McMahon. Thank you for listening to the Watch Podcast Incorporated LLC.

And we will talk to you next week. Do I have shares in that? Or am I shorting it? You've been, what's it called in the social network when they're like, your shares were reduced? Yeah, my shares have been reduced over the last few years, but I'm still showing up to work. Talk to you later.

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Evan, thank you so much for joining, man. You're one of our favorite actors. We've been having such a blast watching you this year. Gosh, I mean, I even forgot to mention the dropout, which is also this year, which is like, you're like, did all this work pile up at once for you? Like, or had you been, has this been getting parceled out from years of work because of the pandemic and stuff got slowed down? No, it's not like there was really a glut.

It was sort of, I had a good, I had the, like a good, strong, like, working pandemic. You know, things were released in sort of an unusual way because, like, the entirety of the bear getting shot from pilot to getting picked up to shooting the season to coming out, like that all happened in the span of probably the shooting like two episodes of the star. I mean, the Star Wars is such a slow machine and there's so, I mean, it's so massive that I shot that before I'd even, like, we'd even started with the bear. and that's just coming out now.

And then the dropout happened, I guess, in between the pilot and the season of the bear. So, no, yeah, it's it all. And then, yeah. And, yeah, it wasn't like a buildup. I just have been busy, you know? Well, we want to chat with you about all of it, but Andy and I are kind of,

I think we fashion ourselves like amateur Gilroy scholars. Like, we just, and just the fact that he's doing a Star Wars show and is still able to imbue it with his, his inimitable style. But for an actor, what is that style? Like, is there a rhythm

to Tony Gilroy dialogue? Is there like a, is there a way of the force to doing his writing in particular? I mean, I don't know. Like, this is a very particular prism

through which, like the Tony Gilroy stuff happens. You know, it does still feel like him to me, but the Star Warsiness of it all is really like front and center, I guess, foremost.

I mean, for me, the reason I wanted to do it more than anything was Tony 100%. But when you get there and it's like, oh, you look up and there's like two moons in the sky. And, you know, you're talking about, you know, Parsecs and, you know, like imperial credits and stuff. That immediately eclipses any kind of like Tony Gilroy, like sort of, what would you call it? like sort of cagey machiavellian Tony kind of dialogue. Even though that's there, it gets sort of like subsumed by Star Wars.

So that was kind of, I remember the first, like, my first night shooting was a small scene with Diego and, oh man, it was like, and I'm not a huge Star Wars guy, but it was like, and I'm not a huge Star Wars guy, but it's just like all of a sudden these words were in my mouth that I kind of grown up seeing and just this sort of like, you know, yeah, talking about a moon like a few thousand parsecs away. And it was like, I was like paralyzed. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, I was like there was so much like myth and legend sort of on my back in a way. And it took like a little bit, I had to like sort of like pause and walk away and kind of get my shit together and come back and like, okay, we can do this. You know, but it was.

It was, like, surprisingly powerful, you know? It's kind of amazing because I think we're used to either talking to actors or at least reading interviews with actors who say, you know, as part of their journey, if they're fortunate enough to have a long career, you strap on the lightsaber, you put on the cape, you play with the toys that you played with as a kid, and maybe you do it for your kids or to be part of the larger story. But in this unique case, which I think has resulted in a totally unique and amazing show, you get all that.

You got the parsecs. But you're also showing up to this beautiful sense. with apparently Tony Gilroy telling you you're in a Ken Loach movie, and Alex Lothar and all these other amazing stage actors are around you. So how did you navigate those two polarities? I mean, talk about two moons. Those are very different things that are resulting in a great show, but usually aren't together.

Well, I mean, very quickly, you know, like, you know, the first day of school, you know, like always when you show up to the set, it's always like a new job and it's always like the first day of school. So this happened to be like a very insane school to have their first day, you know, particularly strange school. but you know that has to go away so that you can do your job so you can be relaxed and you can be in the moment so that quickly you know goes away and then it became quite you know i guess terrestrial in that way you know with working with all these wonderful uh english actors and you know the art direction is so incredible and vast and you know the things have way what what i one thing i really loved about our star wars was is was it was it was it It was the opposite of the Mandalorian in the way that there was none of that. They all shot,

they shot in the volume. Is that what it's wrong? Yeah, the volume. Where nothing is real. And it's, it's, it's kind of incredible because it's literally like, it's like shadows on the wall.

It's like, it's a bit's projection. It's amazing because you're sort of in a meta way part of like the like film history in a kind of cool like hitchcocky and sort of throwback way. But for, for me, as like an actor, it was so much nicer just to be,

first at Pondon, which is such a historic place yeah yeah historic place with like pictures of like tally sylvallis on the wall it's so great so um but they built such an immersive set that you know every button did something everything did something and then then when we were in scotland for two months i mean you don't need to do any acting you know we would we would we would drive we'd be in the middle of nowhere and then we would drive 45 minutes and then we would take small, you know, little off-road little four-by-fours for another 45 minutes, and we'd walk for 20 minutes up to, you know, you're just like on the top of the world.

The wind kicks up and, you know, it starts to blow, you know, our little, like our little shepherd gowns or whatever the hell we're wearing, and, you know, everything's whipping around and there's mist rolling in. It's like, you don't have to do anything at all. I was just, like, kind of try to keep my mouth shut and just not screw up the beauty of it, you know. the cool thing about the four and five, I get the impression that in six, you know, the guns of Navarone happens.

But like in four and five, you guys are almost doing like black box theater because you're just like standing on a hill in an ensemble, like talking to these fellow actors and just kind of like, you know, you get this moment in five where,

you know, we learn a little bit more about your character's backstory, who he talks about, you know, his brother and why he's there and how he feels about the empire. But even that speech was delivered

with such economy. like even the writing and also just like there's a real purpose to all the action and all the dialogue in this show. I really respond to that for some reason. I think that there's a lot of, I don't know about waste, but there's a lot of exposition in any of these stories because you're building up this new world. But there's something very like elemental about the story you guys are telling. Well, you know, I respond to that too. First of all, I love the idea of it being like a black box theater thing. I would just like to see like, you know, schools across the country doing like small, all done.

like two music stands, two folding chairs, like in the high school cafeteria. But that's that, I think that economy is a lot of Tony. One of the issues I have with sort of recent sci-fi and recent genre stuff is you have all these characters that are supposed to be really tough and their setup is really tough. and then they sit around and talk, they start talking about their feelings. There's like too much talk about feelings, and Tony issued anything,

like all that kind of stuff. It was like pills. Pretty, pretty lean, Spartan. You know, I was watching, I was watching Alien recently.

And those scenes, you know, Harry Dean Stanton and all those guys like around in the mess hall. Like, I wouldn't say that those are like lean scenes. They're actually like, they're really like shooting the shit. But,

but they, there's such, toughness there and there's such a sort of like people in a submarine. And I think that's what Tony got, this very muscular dialogue, you know? There's a version of your speech that is like twice as long and is like twice more detail, but instead you're just like, it was pepper trees and it was centuries of them and it's like, oh, that's like this dude's whole family history. And like it was just, it was like the perfect crystallization of like why this guy is wound up in this place at this time. Yeah, it's perfect.

It was so simple. And I think it was maybe two sentences longer and then we got there and he was like, no, no, let's just, we get, we don't need this and we don't need this. But I also think it's to do with, he gives you things to play that teach us in a way that feels intuitive and not like, overly instructive so that we meet your character and Alex Lothar's character in such a specific way before Diego arrives in episode four, right? Like, uh, I'm, and I'm using your real names because I don't remember your Star Wars names. I apologize. Chris probably does. But, because Chris has already back-ordered the Funco Pop action figures of everybody. That's how DP is into this. But like, Alex Lothers is asleep and you're like, you're dead. And so now we get this dynamic. We understand who

these people are. We understand they've been together in this tense place. And then you can just play the scenes. And I wonder also what it's like on set in your proverbial Scottish black box. with these actors, many of whom are like, you know, cream of the crop, British stage actors, and you're no slouch yourself, finding, working together with language that doesn't necessarily feel of your world and finding the truth in it,

you know, because I think it's a truism for genre storytelling in Hollywood. If you cast a Shakespearean actor, they're going to sell Klingon. You know what I mean? Like they can play Iago and then they can play the Vulcan or whatever. There's something about that that works. I wondered what that was like,

being an American actor in that atmosphere and then all finding the truth in it together. Yeah, I mean, I don't like to support the cliche, but that definitely the English training and the Shakespeare training does align really well with this and their ability and facility with language. Certainly Alex and Sulei and Faye Gershwin, I mean, every, like those guys, they all had such facility and ease. I would like to think that my training is not a Shakespearean training at all. I mean, I've certainly worked in the theater a lot, but I've never really done a Shakespeare play. But I would like to think that it kind of just, they sucked me up to their level, you know. There was no transition, really, between us just sitting around and talking and then action was called, and they could just segue seamlessly from a, you know, just from, you know,

bullshitting literally around the campfire that we had going there into this kind of heightened stylized language of Star Wars. I think Diego and I are probably from a more similar background in terms of the kinds of things that we've done. But also fortunately, like Diego is playing somebody who's very reluctant to speak and I was also playing someone who was pretty much, I was not verbose or particularly wanted to talk. So, I was looking up interviews with you on YouTube just out of prep for this and one of the first things that came up

was like a video interview you're doing with Peter Sarsgaard from like 2005 from a short you guys did together but you look like a baby you know what I mean? And I know this is a sort of strange question to basically be like, so you got older because I'm the same age

but man like your face now looks like the face of somebody who could be in the dirty dozen or be in the professionals or be like you have experience in your face and you're older. And it's kind of awesome to see you because I've been following your career for such a long time to see you in this kind of role that, you know, the John Cassavetti's character could play. The Telly Savalas character could play and like, you know, the war movies I used to love. Like do you ever look in the mirror and say, oh, cool. Like I get to, I get to do those parts now. Like, yeah. I mean, well, I've been like waiting, you know, to do it because like when I

with younger and was like much, you know, younger looking and kind of in that kind of ongenoo period. I don't think I was ever, I don't think my heart was ever really in it. And I, you know, I didn't really, it's not like I had some huge career playing leading men when I was in my 20s and 30s. You know, I just always saw myself as not that kind of a person like who fucking cares who you fall in love with and who hurt your feeling. You know, I just, I didn't, it wasn't me, really. So I was always kind of looking forward to a time and place when I could kind of, my face grew into

my old soul or something, if that doesn't sound like horribly pretentious and narcissistic. Not at all. Yeah, I just, I just knew I was like it was going to be, you know, I had time to go and forge, you know, and it's as it's

definitely easier as a man, you know, as a man to work later. I mean, I think those things are changing, but yes, certainly I was like, you know, I knew that it was going to be easier for me later on. We don't want to read too much into our meta understanding of you as a person and as an actor from the fan perspective. But one thing that I think struck both of us...

You're just projecting your own age. Yeah. As soon as the Zoom ends, I'm going to look in the mirror and go, cool. Which I've never done. But I think that if Chris and you are doing it, maybe that's the move in the mid-40s. One thing that really struck me, and I did want to pivot to the bear, is watching the first episode of that show and not knowing anything about it. And one of the great joys of the bear was just the way it hit everyone completely by surprise. And it just felt like collectively everyone was so

excited together, which is a, you know, a really wonderful thing that can happen with TV, was watching your performance and feeling like what was coming off the screen was hunger. You know, this was such a juicy part. And it was so thrilling to watch an actor that I admire be like, oh, I'm going to eat today. Now, I know that eating metaphors can suggest overacting and some acting circles. That is not at all what I'm saying. I'm using food metaphors solely because of the beef sandwiches. It just felt like you knew what this, you knew what this fastball was and you weren't going to miss when you swung. And I wondered if that was, if that mirrored your experience getting the scripts and getting to set. Yeah, 100%. I mean, absolutely. I mean, I've been around a long time and I just

those kinds of parts. And you don't see very much. And B, I haven't been asked to do, you know, very much at all. And I mean, within the range that we saw and the behavior that this guy could hold, his need and his level of expression and his physicality was so dynamic and strong, even within the first two episodes, which is all I read, you know, when they first sent it to me, I was like, yeah, I was so in, you know. I think that when I was younger, I was really interested in a kind of precious honesty and nuance. And I don't, and as I've gotten all, I'm sort of tired.

I'm like, let me see how far I can just push. Let me see how far I can push something and still stay truthful to the character and the story. And this felt like something where I could really get to levels of like absurdity almost. That was not, that was not lost in me. In fact, I remember, like, being out at some diving bar in Chicago with Maddie and the rest of the cast and, like, taking Maddie aside. Like, these kids, you know, they don't know. They don't know how good these parts are, you know.

Maddie was like, okay, sure. I don't know. This is the first thing I've ever done. But, yeah, I'm so grateful for that part. was it like, I mean, you know, what I was just saying about how it sort of hit the audience, you know, with such like no one knew was coming, no one was checking for it, you know, people recognize you or, you know, or they recognize, I mean, they recognize faces on the show, but I don't think people were ready for what the bear became in the best possible way. What was that like just as a participant? Because as you said, I didn't even understand, when I heard it filmed in February, I assumed it was February 2021. And they had been like whittling away and post for months and months. But this whole thing came together. faster than almost anything I've ever heard of in television and then exploded. What was it like on the inside? You know, making it was really fast and furious. Everyone was there. It was a small stage. Chris, Joanna, the writers were there all together. It was an incredibly like dynamic,

awesome set. Chris really just valued everyone, let everyone know that they were, you know, everyone, cast crew, everybody that they were, you know, it was just a big collaborative. process from the beginning. He trusted everyone. It was really inspiring. And then they cut it together so quickly. And then it just came out. And I think I'd seen maybe the first couple of episodes.

And then we left. My family and I, like, we went to Europe on June 25th for this really great two-month-long vacation, which we'd never had anything like that. It was really so special to get spent all this time with my family. But the thing came out and just took off like crazy. here and we were in Europe where it wasn't released. So I was sort of finding out about all that stuff, to people, friends texting me and then Twitter and Instagram.

But I was happy to be away from it part of the time I was missing. Like I was like, oh man, if I was back home, I'd be walking down the street and people would just be like high-fiving me. You'd never buy another drink again. Yeah, right. So I kind of missed that initial. I mean, it's still really nice. People come up to me all the time.

But I missed that, like, I would get text from Jeremy and I. It will be like, it is crazy right now. So I missed if there was like a kind of like a Beatlemania sort of thing. That kind of subsided. And I think the half-life of how these things catch on and then go away and the next thing comes. I think it's pretty quick these days. And really, I feel like everyone tore through that show and watched it. And now it's, you know, they're on to the next thing.

So I missed a lot of it. I think that that show has like staying power in a way that a lot of TV shows don't. You know, like, I feel like people, people have like revisited it or like, you know, and weirdly like it's funny that you came, you came back to the States. I think a bunch of my friends in England are like, fucking hell, the bear is intense. Like I, like, they're just now getting into it there because I think it's just airing in the UK. And I would imagine most of Europe. But like, yeah, it is funny though that like I was like, did the customs guy when you came back from, from Europe say like, cousin.

And you were like, I can't believe this is happening. No, no, no, no, it wasn't anything. It wasn't like the Beatles when they land to do the Ed Sullivan show. And like, no, no, no. And the customs guy was like, I think maybe we got like a welcome home kind of thing. No, there was nothing. There was no fanfare. But I feel like you've been doing it long enough to, I feel like, appreciate the difference between, I think people can love a performance or they can love a movie and they can talk about it.

But people love to love TV shows and characters in a different way. And this really ticked both boxes, I think, in the way. I mean, we were thrilled to be talking about it, watching it, covering it. It felt celebratory, right? Because we loved the show in the way that we love prestige things. Like, it hit. There were eight episodes. They were short.

They were punchy. It was new. But also, we were like, I kind of want to move to Chicago now. And I reconnect with my weird dirtbag cousins. Like, this is something that I want for myself in a way that is extra, you know? And I hope you do get to soak that up a little bit. And certainly in seasons to come, which seem inevitable now. Yeah, well, I mean, it's like an underdog show.

I mean, everybody's a fucking. up on that show, you know, there's nobody who's, like, well-adjusted and, you know, it's just, every, it's like a mess, you know, so I think people can, you know, it's easy to root for these guys, or maybe not. I mean, I know there's a lot of people that were like, God, you know, I just want to punch Richie in the face. I just want to punch Carby in the face, or I just want to shake Tina, or I just want to, you know, punch Sidney in the face. I'm like, wow, there's so much punching in the face. Can I ask you specifically about your relationship with performing relationship with Jeremy? Because one of the things that really

sparked the show is you're just both exceptional actors and the the tools you were using from your toolboxes were so different and complimentary in such a fascinating way. He is ostensibly the lead of the show and yet he's the quietest thing in it at times, you know, and people are orbiting around him. And I remember watching these first two episodes being like, I thought this was a comedy on FX and Ebens and Serpico, and I love it. You know, and so the push pull of the two of you guys, just energy-wise, how you figured that out, how you staked out your time. territory and how you made it so, you know, you're not dominating him and he's holding his own and it's working. Or is the secret to just always be in Serpico? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I always want to try

to be at Serpico. I mean, God, what a great, great movie. I saw that movie recently at the Quad Cinema, they had like a 35 millimeter projection of it and the colors in that movie, the reds in that movie on that like old print, restored print was just like, I felt like I was like looking at like jolly ranchers projected up on the screen. It was so lush and fucking incredible. I mean, it's funny you bring that up because I do think that, you know, Jeremy does remind me of Al Pacino in a way. I mean, he can, it's a quiet.

His performance is quiet. But I mean, you look at like Godfather. I mean, Michael Corleone is the, is also like the quiet. I mean, he barely says anything in the first Godfather. And like he says maybe a few words more in the second one. I mean, he's just such a quiet. And that's so hard to do to have the trust in yourself and your own inner life that the camera and then the audience is going to find that compelling. I mean, for me, I mean, I was just screaming and smoking and throwing stuff.

It's much more fun to do that. And then you have to obviously, from my perspective, you have to like trust. I just kept saying every day I would come up to Chris and Joanna be like, you guys, I'm trusting you so much because this feels so big. And I feel like this would definitely work if I was doing a play. But like I don't, you know, you guys, cameras like right here. Like is this just absurd? Is this working for the medium that we're in? And they said, yeah, it's fine.

And they kept promising me that they would bring me back. And they never did it. I think it does work ultimately. But it was, had I not trusted them as much as I did, I probably would have self-censored and exercised a lot more restraint. And it's really nice to be able to. trust and to be free that way. It felt really, really, really free. Were you constantly pulling Chris and Joanna aside being like, guys, I just wrapped this small

kitchen sink drama in Scotland and the experience there doing something so intimate, you know, with Shakespearean actors? I know what it's like. So, you know. Yeah, I was just, I've just been doing the Altani plays. Yeah. The Aldani No, the Aldani Diaries. Yeah, exactly. You know what though? I mean, like, I had read some, stuff where you talked about, like, what you kind of imbued on Richie in terms of, like, the fashion sensibility and, like, having input in that, you know,

and I would imagine in Star Wars, there's, that's like a little bit more walled off. They're like, these are the things that these people wear. These are these things that this guy would have done or not done. Or, you know, there's limits to what you can do in sort of playing. But I thought it was kind of cool in this latest episode. You kind of do a little show and tell with your character's tattoos,

which didn't seem that was like that seemed like something that you would be like happy to have happy to do like you were like like input on like the kind of character like what would this guy have like on his arms if he had spent time in juvenile

that was a really collaborative yeah I mean like you said like a lot of it is sort of prescriptive and they start working long before like Michael I said Michael Wilson God I can't remember his name but our great costume designer oh my guy's such a genius those guys have to begin work well before like I'm even cast, you know, those drawings and starting to build all those clothes.

That happened so long before. The tattoos was something that was really collaborative. It was important to me that they have a kind of, you know, that we see like, you know, the history, the story that they tell. And I'm not sure that we, I think it was the first time that there were ever tattoos in the Star Wars universe. You could, you. Tony had told us that there was a bunch of stuff that, like, they'd be.

basically have unwritten some rules that they had for, for Anor that he's like allowed to do certain things that they, in the past haven't done. Yeah. I think I'm like half naked. I think I'm probably like showing more skin than anyone's shown, human skin. Yeah, Jabba was all.

Yeah. Jabba was out there. Yeah. Full Monty. Full Monty. But, you know, one of the, I wanted a really institutional, something to convey institutions and being to this.

system. So we have this kind of barcode tattoo. And then underneath a barcode, you know, there's no numbers in Star Wars. They have, there's like a rubric, a way that they kind of convert numbers and letters into different signs. So they actually say things. I'm not going to share their secrets, but they do say a couple of things. And they asked me what I wanted them to say. And so I told, I told them that the man who designed the tattoos. And then we also have, so there's the, so we see that he's through this, gone through the system, these two like different kinds of supermax prisons. And then there's also then gang, like prison gang tattoos. That's the hand one, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my God, bless me. I can't

remember his name, but the guy who like created that tattoos was a huge Star Wars nerd. And he was like, this is how I think they would have done. There was like a one kind of creature in Star Wars who's like a kind of porcupine looking kind of thing. And he's like, I think these tattoos would have come from pulling one of their, they're like spines and dipping that in a certain kind of ink and then doing a kind of stick and poke. I was like, that is, thank you. You know, like, I mean, to get that kind of like history, like, think about how that these, I have so much respect for that level of commitment from the art department to say, like,

okay, well, we'd like to make tattoos, but let's justify how they could even be made within prison. What would that prison be like? Who would you be there with? I have a blaster in that. is the blaster from in the one of that first scene with like Han Solo where it I can't remember where he is but he sat that great bar at Masa Isla and the guy that he you know draws on faster under the table I have that guy's blaster no and they're saying you have Grito's blaster I think so I think so

and they said okay well we could figure out a way for him what's his name grito yeah Grito we were way too fast with that, by the way. That was embarrassing for us. You are much cooler. That was, maybe we can fix that in post. Yeah, what bar was he in? And we're like, oh, yeah, I don't know. That was not a win for 245 year old men. I'd have to go back and watch it. It's been a minute. Yeah, you might want to put a pause in there. But yeah, so they figured out a way for the blaster to get from me to Grito, which will never really see and which will never materialize in any way. But it was really. important to everything is kept track of you know that's incredible did you ever feel like suggesting to them that like maybe if they had numbers they wouldn't have had so much trouble with fascist regimes that like maybe they spent too much time developing hyper stellar travel but maybe like you know

a way to write numbers might have made things smoother maybe that's too big a pitch for the star world universe we should call the mouse we should call mickey and Sure conference, Bob Japecken. Evan, I do want to ask, thanks for all your time, by the way. Really appreciate it. My pleasure, guys. So nice talking. We're talking to you.

Bear Season 2 is happening. Is that something, is that soon on your horizon? Have you had conversations with Chris and Joanna and things? Or do they keep things quiet until the restaurant opens? I'm seeing them on Saturday, and I'm hoping that they'll let me know a little bit, because I don't really know much. I know we're, I think we start shooting in February. Because that's when you want to be in Chicago.

That's prime time. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. We insisted. But yeah, I don't really know. I don't, I would imagine that it's not smooth sailing now. If I had to hazard a guest, you know, they try to reinvent the restaurant in some way. And it's even more of a shit show than it was before. But that's just a guess. But yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. So that's February. And just, you know, as we said, we're just fans of you in your career. And it's exciting to see you in all these different projects. Like, are you feeling good at this moment where you can pick some stuff? Like, is there stuff on the horizon that you're excited about, that stuff you want to be able to do that maybe there are different opportunities now than there were two years ago, five years ago? Yeah, it's really nice.

I'm in a really nice moment, like professionally. It's like I'm reading things that I'm really excited about. I just finished a movie in New Mexico with Sarah Paulson, which is kind of Dust Bowl era psychological thriller for Hulu, for Searchlight and Hulu, that I think is a really, really strong movie. She's such a great actor. And that was just, I don't know,

like a very evocative, epic kind of environmental. horror movie that I was, yeah, I mean. Then I just did a movie with Jennifer Lawrence. So, yeah, I'm definitely doing things that I probably would not have been doing before. It feels nice. I mean, listen, to be honest, like, I've been doing this for a long time and just being able to do it for this amount of time and not have another job and to be able to support my family and spend time with my family

and get to do such diverse projects over the years. I've always felt very, very lucky and fortunate. But this feels different and, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, well, we can't wait for, for more bear. We can't wait for more Andor and thanks so much for coming on this show, man. My pleasure, guys. So nice talking to you.