The Watch - Emmy Nominations, the 'Loki' Season Finale, and Where 'Black Widow' Belongs in the Marvel Cinematic Universe

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

Chris and Andy break down the Emmy nominations that were announced this week, including the very stacked Limited Series categories (1:39). Then they get into the 'Loki' season finale and what made the series click for them (27:18) before talking about the overall enjoyable 'Black Widow' and where it fits into the Marvel Cinematic Universe (46:59). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and joining me on the other line, my variance. It's Andy Greenwald. I feel like that. I feel like we're in alternate timelines right now. We're both on the East Coast, but we're not together. Yeah. We're out of our comfort zones.

So who knows what kind of show we're going to have? Who does? We're going to talk about the Emmys. We're going to talk about the finale of Loki, the season finale of Loki, because now we know that there's going to be a second season. And we're going to talk about Black Widow. The Black Widow and Loki stuff is kind of interlocked, I think. Greenwald, should we just jump right into Emmys?

Yeah, this is bizarre because, you know, people who listen to the, the show regularly know that you and I, as the co-host of the most consistent pop culture podcast on the internet, have our finger on the pulse. So we knew for sure both of us that the Emmy nominations were coming yesterday, right? I had it marked down in a calendar. I just missed, I misplaced the calendar. That's the thing. And when you discovered the calendar and I got a text from you at the beach with a list of Emmy nominations, I was like, bet this is, this is, this is right. This is what I expected. What a crazy thing this was, I thought. So I got. So I got. When I looked at the nominations, my first reaction was, am I looking at a list of all the TV that has come out this year?

Because there are multiple categories here where there's upwards of eight nominees. I think that there is some wishful thinking in some cases in terms of the designation of, let's see if we can get Hamilton in here, right? Let's just jam Hamilton in this one too. And then there is some pleasant surprises, some sort of thinking face emoji surprises. and all in all, I think a really, it's going to be a really quality night in terms of the kind of television that's getting celebrated.

There are a couple of UFC cage matches where I'm like, I don't know who's going to exit the cage standing here. What are your big takeaways from all the nominees? Well, I guess my first takeaway is that, and this has been true for the last number of years, I think that of all the major award shows, the Emmys remain the most responsive and relevant

to the medium that it, it celebrates as it is actually experienced and watched. And I think that there are, and we won't start here, but I think it's just worth putting down the marker that I think that there are lessons here for the Oscars. I think the Grammys are beyond teaching, but I think that there are lessons here for the Oscars, which very publicly and very dramatically and has sort of, we've been able to watch their torment as it's tried to comport itself to both changing times culturally and societally as well as financially for its industry.

and the Emmys continue to evolve and reflect TV as it is watched for good and for ill. I also was struck by the sheer number of nominees. And I feel like it's worth just beginning there to clarify because I think if you look at like the best drama series, right? Or best comedy series or one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight comedy series, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight drama series. That seems quite a lot. Yeah, I would actually argue that the eight drama series are the eight shows that are not limited. Like on TV. I 100% agree with that.

And we're going to talk about that too, because for as much as the Emmys have tried to keep up with the changing times, they are still slow in some areas. One of which is the division of ongoing series from limited slash event slash anthology series was, I understand why it existed. I understand why it's continued to exist. But they're going to have to figure something out. Because if you were to remove those qualifications, one is limited, one is unlimited or whatever, what would this category look like? how many of the currently nominated drama and comedy shows would even be there if they had to compete against Maravis Town or I May Destroy You, etc, etc. But I will just quickly just mention that the Outstanding Drama Series, as we talk, I'll try

to drop the nominees here. The Outstanding Drama Series are the Boys, Bridgerton, the Crown, the Handmaids Tale, Lovecraft Country, The Mandalorian Pose, and This Is Us. I mean, and to be fair to the Emmys and to the TV Academy, those are definitely television shows, all of them. I mean, there's no question. So they all deserve to be listed as television shows. Whether they are the best drama series, we'll get to it a second.

Or whether they are even being made anymore. Another great point. Thus, making them limited. So this began last year, and I don't think we noted it. I didn't really notice it. But so because there's just so goddamn much television, the Emmys instituted a sliding scale rule for the number of nominees within each category that is tied directly to the number of.

submissions it gets. And for people who, you know, who don't remember this or need to hear this every year, networks submit or performers submit themselves, basically, in whatever category they feel is both appropriate and that they kind of have the best chance in. You know, there's always things like Hannah Eindler on Hacks was nominated. Congratulations. Phenomenal. We love that show.

As supporting actress, she's kind of the co-lead with Gene Smart. Sure. But this was a smarter play, I guess, to submit herself. or have herself submitted as supporting. So the sliding scale is, if they only receive one to 19 submissions in a category, that means there will either be zero nominations up to four. 20 to 80 submissions equals five nominations. 81 to 160 submissions, six nominations.

161 to 247 nominations, 240 and above eight submissions. So there are several categories. They got 240 or above submissions. Or above. And you know who's happiest about this is the billboard industry in Los Angeles, because every one of those got a billboard for your consideration. Not for our consideration, but for whoever is voting. I'm going off of last year's info. Last year, there were, I believe, eight in both categories as well.

There were over 280 submissions in the comedy and drama categories last year. So when you say submissions, you mean different elements of shows submitting for... No, that means 200 for the drama, that just take best drama series. 280 drama series submitted themselves for consideration in that category. So I watched a lot of TV last year. Uh-huh. There were 280 drama serieses

who got up in the morning and said, you know what I am? A best drama series? I mean, yes. I guess what probably is is like literally every show that is a running drama. Like Virgin River or whatever,

like Big Sky, every single show probably was just like, we are sitting ourselves for Emmys. They 100% do. Yes, that's every, I mean, yeah, every Dick Wolf show submits itself for Best Rock. Okay, that makes more sense. No question. And so here we are.

So that's why there are just these eye-popping numbers. But I think that we should probably start here again. And why don't we go through this cage match? Like the absolute blood sport that is the limited series, because this is really where a lot of eyes are focused. And I think it really speaks to the issues that the Emmys are going to face going forward. to Andy's point, you know, if you were to put any, I think any of the drama series with possibly the exception of the crown and in some corners the Mandalorian, and in some corners the boys, up against these limited series, it would be hard to see which one, which there, no limited series. I would not lose any of these limited series against the drama series. I may destroy you. Mayor of East Town, the Queens Gambit, the Underground Railroad, Wanda Vision. So five limited series nominated. where it gets absolutely just, you know, two men enter one man leave, or two women enter one woman leave,

is in outstanding lead actor, an outstanding lead actress especially. An outstanding lead actor in a limited series. You got Paul Bettney for WandaVision. Hugh Grant for the undoing. The undoing show that, by the way, got pretty much otherwise snubbed, which is pretty remarkable, an HBO prestige show that did numbers like it did.

Ewan McGregor for Halston, Lynn Manuel, Miranda for a little thing called Hamilton, and Leslie Odom, Jr., also for Hamilton. This is where it gets nuts. Outstanding lead actress in a limited series is Michaela Cole for I May Destroy You, Cynthia Arrivo for Genius Aretha, Elizabeth Olson for Wanda Vision, Anya Taylor Joy for the Queens Gambit,

and Kate Winslet for the Mayor of East Town. I mean, let's say two things. For people who are still a little unclear on this, for many years, because of the way TV was, it was limited series or movie. That was a combined category. Yeah, which is I guess why Hamilton is in this category. because they have yet to separate the

individual acting awards the way they separated the series awards. That is something that they need to do immediately and they probably will do starting next year for this very recent. In the meantime, so when you watch the Oscars and as we've seen, I recommend people listen to Big Pictures, the awards show,

the Oscar show that they do where they just talk about the sort of nature of the awards throughout the year. One of the crises of the Oscars is what they're celebrating at that award show versus what people are actually going to see in theaters. And there's always this like spoonful of sugar with your medicine where should they nominate

the last Jedi? I mean, I know that would be controversial or something like that. Should these big films get nominated in big categories to draw eyeballs to the ceremony even if it's going to be these smaller films, these artier films that win? Now, obviously, like I think,

when they, when something like Green Book goes through, the idea is to thread the needle of popular entertainment and awards fair. And nobody had a problem with that. So that was a great success. The Emmys has seemingly solved this. Now, partially because TV, I think, is the popular and the acclaimed are a little bit closer together, possibly, at least, you know, I, and that's a debate we can have. I mean, if you look at the actual quote-unquote Nielsen ratings of like what people are watching. They're not necessarily on this list. But Wanda Vision is a big show, was a big show, and it is well represented here with upwards of, I think, 23 nominations. The Mandalorian might be the pop cultural event of the last 18 months. That got 24 nominations.

Lots of people watch The Crown. Lots of people watch This Is Us. I think lots of people still watch, you know, I mean, lots of people watch Mayor of East Town. So you have these shows that have relatively large fan bases with really big names, and they are all represented here at TV's sort of crowning crowning night. It's kind of amazing. I mean, first of all, I would say, to the comparison with the Oscars, one could envision a world in which the outstanding limited series nominees, and I'll say them again, Merivistown, I May Destroy You, Wanda Vision, Queens Gambit,

Underground Railroad. If those were the five nominees for Best Drama Series, I wouldn't necessarily blink. I'm not saying people, other things weren't snubbed, or you could make a case for the Crown or even the Mandalorian. But that's a legitimate list. I mean, that is not just a legitimate list. It's a legitimate snapshot, not just of what we cover on the podcast, but of where TV is right now.

I mean, the divide between Wanda Vision and Underground Railroad alone as both expensive, lauded passion projects by two of the richest corporations in the world. and the divergent responses they've gotten, et cetera, et cetera. That's in and of itself a fascinating debate. And then you throw in, as you said, I mean, I may destroy you, our favorite show of last year, Mayor of Easttown, our favorite topic of this year.

It's pretty thrilling. I would also say, when you go back to the drama series, if you were, Chris, if you were going to put on your Jonas Airoglasses and be the Hollywood fixer again, there is clearly, clearly a mark. market inefficiency here. And the market inefficiency is in ongoing drama series. Not just an opportunity to get nominated for Emmys because I think that this list, well, definitely, as I said, representing television shows, in no way represents a consensus of audience acclaim or taste. And

there's just a lane here. Now, obviously, the lane looks a little bit different because Better Call Saul and Succession both had their seasons delayed. And those are the two shows, not just that we love. And Stranger Things as well, which often gets nominated, I think. Stranger things as well. And those are three shows that more fit the mold of what we have come to expect, not just because of the DNA of Better Call Sol being related to Breaking Bad, but just the type of ongoing entertainment we've seen. But there's a market inefficiency here. And it also does speak to the changing marketplace writ large, which is as TV was moving towards a more prestige model and get eyeballs model. And particularly as the streamers launched and they wanted big, big, big ticket IP or big ticket star power. the difference between getting Kate Winslet on a one-year deal.

I mean, I know we do sound like baseball GMs right now, but getting Kate Winslet on a one-year deal versus signing a cast of absolutely outstanding, lesser-known people to seven-year deals, the economics of that start to come into play, and we start to see how it plays out in terms of response and awards recognition. And piggybacking off that take,

I would just say that if you look at this Best Limited Series with a couple of exceptions, there is a world in which any one of those limited series were once featured film developments. You know, those limited series are the long-term effect of people starting to take movies that they probably can't make in Hollywood anymore and saying, okay, let's tell this over six or seven hours

or 10 or 12 hours with a huge star, but with a limited commitment. And the split for that take, which I think is correct, Queen's Gambit, a book that's existed for almost 40 years and has been in development for nearly as long. When Scott Frank, the creator, writer, director came on our podcast to talk about it. He said, like, this was supposed to be a movie many, many times. And this ended up being the right way to do it. The flip side of that, and we'll keep patting ourselves on our collective backs here for people we've had on the show. But good friend of the pod, Ethan Hawk, who, to my mind is the biggest snub, at least in terms of headlines.

for his work in the Good Lord Bird. Incredible performance, really impressive miniseries overall. And just a sign of, as you said, the bloodsport here, that that couldn't find its way in. It couldn't find its audience when in the ongoing drama series or whatever. Like Penn 15 is really good.

And it got nominated because I feel like, you know, there was room for it. There was no room for the Good Lord Bird here. That's an unfair comparison between those two shows. But I'm just grabbing titles that I see at the moment. And anyway, Good Lord Bird, another project based on an acclaimed book that was maybe a movie.

And it's like, no, this will work better here. And it did work better here. But it didn't get the result that, I mean, everyone's proud of it. But I think they definitely wanted more recognition for it, if only because that would turn into more eyeballs. And that's a surprise to me that it didn't get anything. I'm going to fast forward ahead here a little bit because I want, and this is a tough question to ask, but the morning after the Emmys, if I had to, if you had to say right now,

who do you think the big winner will be? of of uh in terms of like networks or shows or anything a person a network a show yeah i think mayor is going to clean up and i think ted lasso is going to clean up i was going to say that ted lasso you know and and you know our buddy zach baron just wrote a really great profile of ted of tassad of jason sudacus in gq please read it's great and it it definitely sets the table for this for this victory lap that we're about to witness I mean, and I say this as someone, I know people don't believe me. The show didn't feel like it was for me at the time.

I'm not casting any aspersions on it. I loved reading the story. I loved what Zach got out of Jason Sudec. I love what Jason Sudecis is putting into the world. And what he's putting into the world is the rare thing where it's both genuine. In terms of an emotional story, it's genuine. It's reflected in the art in the show. And it's a great story.

And it also has a little bit of tabloidy piece because of his personal life and the upheavals that went on during the making of the show. all of that is going to come together for a big win. That's just the second season being released. Exactly at the right time. But I mean, the comedy series thing, you mentioned the drama series, and I think the main takeaway from the drama series is this is what the Oscars both want and are afraid of in that genres crash the party, right?

I mean, Game of Thrones winning multiple times set the table, but in this list, yeah, the Crown could still win for sure, but, and this is us, is still quietly representing. presenting, you know, just steady, old-fashioned broadcast success. But the presence of the boys is wild to me. You and I really like that show. I can't wait for there to be more episodes. I'm not sure I would have considered it an outstanding drama series, but maybe that's my old-fashioned brain.

Same with Mandalorian. Same even with Lovecraft Country, which I think is worth noting. You know, it is a highly genre show. It's also a very complicated and complex show, both on the screen and apparently off of it too because HBO sat on developing a second season for a year before just a week ago announcing that everyone was out of their deal, they were letting people out of their holds

and the show would not be returning. And then it gets this Emmy. Misha Green, the showrunner signs an overall deal with Apple right after that. Yeah, it's interesting. The backstory I would love to know about, that show just fundamentally didn't work for me, but I guess it clearly worked enough for Emmy voters. But anyway, this is what,

to a degree what the Oscars would look like if, you know, Endgame was nominated for Best Picture. Right. The comedy thing, maybe comedy has just always been incredibly subjective. And you and I, Chris, grew up in an era where there just weren't that many choices. So we had things like Friends or Cheers or Seinfeld to kind of, quote unquote, unite us, even though clearly not everyone was watching it. But I would, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who likes all of these shows. Do you know what I mean?

or at least finds them all funny. Because they're so deeply funny in so many different ways. I'll list them. The outstanding comedy series. Blackish. Cobra Kai. What a success story, by the way,

from kind of a... A YouTube show, yeah. A YouTube would felt like almost an inside joke to a huge success on Netflix and now an Emmy nomination. Penn 15. Emily and Paris,

a show I don't think anyone likes sincerely, but maybe that's just me picking up, you know, have you seen any of it? No. Okay. So I shouldn't...

No, I wasn't like you're missing out on on Ernst Lubbich movie. I'm just saying, like, I was just curious whether you would actually... Is Emily and Paris in the Libreau extended universe of Paris? Hacks, Ted Lasso, flight attendant, Kaminsky method? I mean, what a bizarre range of shows. Again, maybe you could look at that and say,

this celebrates the breadth of where television is right now and the options for comedy that a show like flight attendant and Penn 15 are even considered in the same category. I found it fascinating. I also found it almost, what do you think about this before we, and we should get out to the big Marvel stuff, which maybe says more about where the industry is than even us narrowcasting our thoughts about the Emmys. Am I still holding on to that monoculture piece that we often bump up against, that we're used to, you know, that this should somehow mean something or represent something. I guess I'm still processing my reaction to just how disjointed and digressive that, that, that, the drama and comedy nominees seemed to be.

A collection to my mind, and I say this with love and respect for a lot of the shows, a collection of Bs to B pluses with a couple C minuses thrown out. I don't know. I mean, I wonder whether there's something to... It's arguably a golden age of comedy

on television right now in terms of the variety of stuff that you can find in terms of the amount of formal innovation that's going on across the board. And that's whether you're... I think you should leave fan or a fan of something like Ted Lasso, you know, things on sort of polar opposites. But at the same time, there's a reason why you and I usually will just say, I really liked this and then move on.

And it's not because we're lazy. It's just because I think that the level of engagement that you have with comedy just differs than the one you do with drama. I mean, I think with dramas, people start to talk about their feelings and their ideas and their lives, and they start to see themselves in shows and they start to learn about themselves through shows. And with comedy, typically at least, like in terms of the public discourse, I think people will say this was great.

And I really loved it. And it was entertaining and I laughed a lot. And when it's something like hacks, you can obviously have like an emotional connection to it. But the second half of that hack season is essentially a drama. You know, and there's large swaths of, I would even say flight attendant, which is like a thriller.

It is a thriller. So it's kind of weird. It's like I guess in the same way that we have these sort of sliding rules for limited and what's a limited series and what's an ongoing drama series? I think with comedy, you're seeing in there a list of shows that are, comedy is just the first thing that they are. And then I would be curious to know what would happen if they somehow made a, that you have to have three laughs per page rule.

You know, would you see a different collection of comedies there? I think the other thing worth saying, or worth noting, probably two other things, and then we can move on, because obviously we'll talk about the Emmys when they actually happen. It's clearly an issue to represent an entire industry when there are upwards of four or five, six hundred shows per year. It's interesting to see the way Emmy voters, and they've done a good job trying to diversify the block of voters,

both in terms of age and life experience and profession. but they clump together too, right? There are shows that clearly, like with America, Emmy voters just really watched and others that they maybe did the polite one episode of or checked in or understand that this was an important performance but maybe not worthy of the entire series. But like the Ted Lasso block, you know what I mean,

is just really remarkable. Four nominees, I think, in the best supporting actor in a comedy, it's wild. So it's sort of, it is interesting as a case. study to see the shows that were considered versus the ones that clearly people fell in love with. I think it's also worth noting because this has been a struggle for a lot of award shows to try to reflect diversity in terms of talent, but also in terms of just the audience that might be watching certain shows or that might see something in certain shows. And I feel like the Emmys, at least in

terms of its acting nominees, did a really good job of acknowledging and noticing and celebrating the talent that's been on display this year. I mean, it is worth noting. This is a small thing. This is not a big thing. But of the outstanding lead actor in a drama series, six actors nominated, four actors of color nominated in that category. That's got to be a record. And it's notable. This matters. And it actually, you know, we can even use Jonathan Majors, who is nominated as a lead in Lovecraft Country, as a bridge maybe to moving to talk about Loki, because he shows up there, too, in a situation that I think a few years ago, he might not have been. put in and it was it made the episode that much better to see him it it feels a lot less uh labored over

in the emmys like i do think that a lot of these shows were the best shows and a lot of this work was the best work and you know i i i do it's it's it's the emies have always like throw me for a loop i think because of their uh the time frame which they operate and often what will happen is there are shows of the moment when the emmys are running that you feel like why aren't we talking about X, Y, or Z, you know, whereas you're talking about a show from like 11 months ago, but not 13 months ago. And it's just, like, it feels kind of random, especially since there are no more real, like, seasons of like, here come the fall shows, and now they're all going to go on hiatus in the spring. But that being said, like, this is a really great collection of work.

I love to use the word labor. I think that's right. I think that the thing that the Oscars may never be able to overcome is this self-regard, which is earned because movies, good job, good job by you movies. You've done a lot of great work, but that it is an art form that is somehow existentially artistic and uplifting and exhilarating and mind expanding. And TV has always had second kid syndrome. And it's just like, well, we're just TV here. And because of that, and, you know, it's worth noting the prestige divide that we're starting to see in the limited series. But something like Bridgerton, which is a show I have not watched and I apologize, we don't really cover. People love that show. That is a huge, huge, huge, huge.

success. Credit to Shonda Rhymes, who is brilliant at this and who just redid her Netflix deal, which appears to be finally putting her in the pay grade. She honestly deserves equal to Ryan Murphy or someone else in that Netflix stratosphere. But it's not debatable. Like, I get why Bridgeton was nominated for Best Drama. It's a huge show. People loved. Reggie Jean-Page gets nominated for lead actor and drama series. Yeah, because he was the star of one of the biggest shows of the year, and he became a big star from it. Yeah. Like, it's not that complicated. And I think that's when the Emmys really shine and allow us to sort of be slightly critical, but generally enthusiastic, because it does feel like it is trying, if sometimes clumsily, to wrap its arms

around a very contentious thriving medium. Yeah, and you know what? I think that there's like a, there's a wolf at the door feeling with a lot of the superhero stuff and a lot of the franchise IP stuff that's happening in Hollywood. I think at this point now, it's more rare to find somebody who doesn't work on one of those things or aspire to work on one of those things to then find somebody who turns their nose up at it. But there seems to be a much more like, hey, the playground's open, man. Like, if Wanda Vision is good and if Mandalorian is good and despite issues we've had with all these things, I think that those shows are very worthy. And in a lot of ways, represent the last vestiges of, hey, this TV show is important. Everybody's watching it and talking about it.

Yeah. In some ways, the way that Disney is doing this by creating this much attention for things, and releasing them once a week is about as TV as you can get. So I guess that's a perfect segue to get into Loki's finale and Black Widow. So we'll be right back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere

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Priceline. All right, Andy, I'm kind of glad that we wound up waiting to talk about Black Widow. Because, you know, obviously it's been out for about a week now. But we didn't get a chance to talk about it on Monday. That was a pre-recorded episode where we did our mailbag. And I'm glad we're going to get to talk about it in in conjunction with Loki because I thought

watching Black Widow I was reminded about how much I enjoy Marvel movies generally and in some ways maybe now I've found myself the pendulum is swung where I'm like is that my preferred model of Marvel

storytelling is actually like I get to see one of these every few months and it's two hours and it's a lot of fun and then there's a credit stinger and then I walk out and think about that for a while and get on with my life rather than the here's six weeks of constant speculation. Will they land it? Will they answer this question? What will it do to set up this next thing? And are these episodes successful? That would actually be a perfect conversation starting point

if I didn't also think that the finale for Loki was pretty fucking amazing. I completely agree with you. I was exactly ready to have that conversation too. And reality got in the way. And, bump me up. And what a weird, you being the prepared professional podcaster you are, you watch Black Widow well in advance of her recording time. I was harboring secret plans. You wanted to go to the theater. I was going to sneak into a theater. No, I was going to pay for a ticket. Pay for your ticket. But I sneak in the sense that I would be wearing a full like hazmat suit and sitting in the back row. But I was going to try to go see it because I wanted that. I really, you know, like many of us, I wanted that movie experience. But I also particularly wanted it for this because I like going to

Marvel movies. Watching it, as God and Kevin Feige intended, on my laptop at 9 p.m. at my in-laws, that wasn't anyone's goal. And that said, it was a fascinating for me viewing experience that I can't wait to talk about. I do think that, and then watching the Loki finale the next morning on the same laptop, did twin them in a way. And we could talk about the ways that they were both, you know, that maybe they were

successful or surprising, but we should probably start with Loki just because that happened more recently, right? And why it worked so well. And I'm excited to talk about what a movie even means in this context when I still just watch it on the same screen and the same streaming service. But what I kind of wanted to start with, if it's okay, is just to say, God, Loki was good. And now that we're done with it, it feels fantastic. I feel like a lightness and a looseness in my body because, and I think we've been dinged for this potentially legitimately too. We don't know what we're being given with these shows. It's too new. The Marvel, the MCU on TV is a new thing, what these shows mean, the stakes that they're playing with, how they're going

to deliver them to us, what it'll feel like, what it's supposed to feel like. So there's a tension in our coverage of it because we just don't see the shape of it. And now we've seen all six episodes of Loki, which is far in a way the most successful thing they've done to date out of the three. And it was a tension. TV show. And it was a really good one. And that, I feel, I feel fantastic about that. You know what I mean? We spent all this time, well, they're not going to drop a major villain reveal in a TV show. Like, Fagie's going to be too precious with his Infinity Stones. He's going to hold them back for the big movies. So it's going to be, it's going to kind of circle back internet self and it's going to be a power

broker thing again. Nope. Here's Kang. We got Kang. Yeah. And but also it's not. We got the nice version of Yeah. We got the nice gang. It's not just going to be, you know, it's not just going to feel neutered because at the end, it's a very, very long trailer for Ant Man 3. Absolutely not. It was completely about itself, its world, its stakes, its emotions, its themes, its characters, and doubled down on it by at the end being like season two.

We're just going to, we're going to keep building this story because we believe in this story and in this creative team. And I think sometimes we even we underrate how. important that is for a viewer because those early bumps when you're starting a pilot or starting a new series, look, it makes sense. If you get on a bus and the driver is somewhat, you know, it's reeks of pop off vodka and is chain smoking and looks like they haven't slept in three days, you're going to be like, I'm not going to relax during this journey. But then you realize, you know, maybe it's just a nice old Russian man who love, I don't know, I'm creating,

I'm stereotyping. I don't know where I am with this bus metaphor, but I I think you understand what I mean. Are you in deep Brooklyn? Like, what's going on here? I'm in one of the many locations of Black Widow. Yeah. The point is, I trust this creative team. And not just that, I'm thrilled by them.

And that is a very, it's not just a familiar sensation to be like, great, I love this. I'd like more. It really puts the whole thing in a different context and a different light. And I think ultimately it was a big triumph. Yeah. So speaking of that, how many sort of, how many fakeouts are really going to get? yet, like, how many times are we... Because now I think after three, the Marvel TV structure has been pretty well developed.

There is going to be some combat. That combat is going to feel, for me, like a little bit of an afterthought or almost something that's skippable, because for the most part, it's, like, it's basically trying to add some fireworks to what is pretty dense expository, either character work or universe building, which is totally fine. Loki did it the best out of all three so far. I think that in some ways, by going first, Wanda Vision had the hardest job, but also got like, not the easiest pass, but was like, wow, Wanda Vision's so weird and so different. Marvel TV is so wild. And I think now in retrospect,

like going back, like, I really appreciate what Wanda Vision tried to do. I think I probably enjoyed it the least out of the three shows so far. But it's kind of set up a model where, like, you're going to have like some central questions that sort of quote unquote need to get answered. But like you said, Loki is the one that actually went there. Loki is the one where there actually was something at the end of the rainbow. And I don't know. So when the elevator opens there and Kang is there, there's this really interesting feeling because I try to sometimes think about what someone

who isn't already a Kang obsessive thinks. when a character played by Jonathan Majors, who was an excellent actor, that I don't think a ton of people know. So there is a big difference between that being Jonathan Majors and say like if Josh Brolin was more recognizable as Thanos

or something like that. The elevator opens, this guy is sitting there in a cape. He's doing the most with his scenes that he gets. And for me, I'm like, I have heard about this guy, but I still need them to do the,

this is who I am, this is what I want and this is what you need to side work. And they did it. They did it. Like, I don't even know if he ever, he ever says that his name is Kang. I think he, I think he says I've been referred to as the conqueror or whatever. But I

actually thought he did a pretty good job explaining I mean, what is it going to be? Secret Wars, right? Like, he does a pretty good job being like, yeah, man, like there are all these different realities. I was partially responsible for discovering them. then me and all my variants basically fought

and I won and I keep a lid on chaos much to the chagrin of people like you who get their hearts broken at their lot in life. This was, I mean, it's sad that there will be schools for this, but there should be because this is where entertainment is going. But like the exposition scene should be taught in his academy. His speech at the desk where he's like, here's like a little animation of this, right?

Also, by the way, this is the little things that make me so impressed with this show that was an over 10-minute talking scene. But this has been a series of over-10-minute talking scenes with great actors and very light balletic dialogue, and it's a pleasure. And, you know, the little conceit of the little mole, the sort of Warhammer figures forming on the desk of the story,

great. It communicated the information, and it simplified it. And this is what, more than anything, what Kevin Feige has done best in this unprecedented run, which is take, find, And in a way, this is what does make him kind of the heir to Stan Lee, not just in terms of this position at the company, like a pure universal simple thing and communicate it. And then you can dress it in all the chaos of the multiverse and people will go along for

the ride. And doing that with Kang was amazing. I think what was also amazing, and this is kind of what I was referring to before, is that elevator opens any other time in pop culture, popcorn movie history. Jonathan Majors isn't the one in the Cape. Yeah. You know, it is a million percent Paul Bettney or Paul Bettany type, you know, mustache twirling British actor, white British actor doing that and playing that role.

It is incredibly liberating and exciting for it to be a different actor, not just an actor of color, but a young actor with serious stage chops. I mean, he, who, as you said, people don't really have a fixed opinion of yet. He was very strong in Lovecraft country, but he was the straight man. He was the lead, and he was sort of a muscular brooding figure in that. He was great into Five Bloods, the Spike Lee movie,

but again, a supporting role, and you don't really get a sense of him and how surprising and electric he is as a performer. And he was encouraged, as generally only the Gary Oldmans of the world had been previously encouraged to do. Eat every line of dialogue like it's that apple, dude. Go for it,

because you got Hiddleston, you got Sophia Di Martino there. This is a great trio. But they're like in the audience. Like they just sit there in those chairs and they're in the audience for him. And he gets that, yeah,

you're right. Like probably, you know, 15 pages of a speech to give where he's essentially explaining the last five episodes of TV that we've watched and probably the next five to 10 years

of movies we're about to see. Yeah, because by removing this benevolent, apparently, version of Kang, we are now going to bring down the reign of chaos of potentially, you know, thousands more.

And the beauty of it with this variant thing that they've introduced in the series is Jonathan Majors, you know, has already signed to play this character or different iterations of him multiple times, but there can be variants. This can just be a thing that keeps happening. And it suggests a way forward

for the larger Marvel storytelling machine in that now we see what a lot of this is going to be about, but we have also seen that it is possible to keep a lid on it. So it both blows out the idea of mistakes because now everybody can die and everyone can be a variant and anything is in play, which is important for comic book storytelling. But it begins from a place of, but it wasn't always like that thanks to this one character. So we could go back to that. So we could put a lid on it. So people could, I mean, it always comes back to living and dying, but characters could

die again. Like Tony and Natasha are still technically like they are dead and those character, like the actors who play those characters perhaps will not return to the Marvel universe. But I would be very surprised if in 10 years or whenever this culminates if before the end of this next phase of the Marvel, we do not see Scarlett Johansson and Robert Dandy Jr. again in some capacity. As long as

everyone gets along in Georgia as they seem to, they'll be back for something. Even if it's just a little stinger or a flashback or whatever, yeah, because the vibes and the paychecks are extremely good. And those are the two things that actors look for. Just in terms of this as a TV show, though, you know, just, I just, I hope we get to talk to Michael Waldron at some point because opening the gates to this evil, purple, glowing CGI, but on a soundstage in Georgia's

citadel, and then having it be the creepy animated clock, voiced by the Great Terrace Strong, like, yes, this is what I want. This is the big entertainment that I want. I love the sense of humor. I love the confidence. And again, I love that this was the show it was from the beginning. It went to a lot of different places, though never left Georgia. And yet it's, stayed true to its tone and its point of view. And a lot of the credit has to go to Kate Heron and I mentioned Michael Waldron and this incredible cast that they put together. But I also want to shout out Natalie Holt, who is the composer, who's a young British composer who you can read about her and variety I just did. Like the attention to detail and the character work that the music did

by combining these kind of enormous Norse choral pieces, but also theremin. Yeah. So brilliant. And so I'm not sure what the word even would be because there was just a consistency of the artistic vision and the chances taken and the tone that is incredibly hard to balance. And that's also what made this a successful TV series, not just because I think sometimes when we say this is a good TV show versus a movie or whatever is because we're like, well, they swung for the fences in episode two and that was so great. In episode four, they swung for the fences and missed. But that's what TV is. There was a consistency here to the artistic vision that allowed the discrepant in, not discrepancy, but the episodes were different.

They were, you know, there were some, there was the Lamentus one. There was the before sunrise one, right? And then there's the wacky Richard E. Grant and Spandex one. But it was all always the same show in a way that I really loved. Yeah, in some ways it kind of reflected the level of control that I guess Kang exerted over the bureaucracy and the TVA in the first place where I feel like this was one of the first Marvel productions, TV productions, that didn't feel in some way claustrophobic. Because I think that there's, the fact that they have such a great production line going

where they're shooting in Atlanta, and obviously they go to other locations. But like, there's something about the consistency of that that I think also sometimes can feel a little samey from show to show. And like when they're obviously like interior bound, it feels a little soundstaging. Now that was the point of Wanda Vision, but I thought sometimes when I was watching Falcon, I was like, this definitely just feels like the most generic, like, European street you could possibly imagine. That was one of the things I really liked to buy Black Widow is it felt a little bit more out in the world. They kind of inverted the claustrophobia with Loki. They were like, well, if it's all of this, you know, basically like purple mist tree branch off

of a timeline fantasy, we can control everything. You know what I mean? And we can make it look as crazy or as beautiful or as haunting as we want. And then when you get into what a bureaucracy that ran time looks like, it's kind of awesome. You know what I mean? It is kind of cool to have this like this sort of office comedy going on. If anything I have to say about Loki is I kind of wish there had been more case of the week Owen Wilson and Tom Hiddleston go chase down a variant and then come back and shoot the shit with a guy who doesn't know what a fish is kind of stuff. Like, they moved past that pretty quickly into Lady Loki or Sylvie and figuring that whole idea of like your variant out.

Yeah, I mean, I have to say that. I never expected to say this about a Marvel show is I kind of want to stay in this fishbowl. Like this idea of an evil time lord and then the two Loki is trying to get back together so that they can perversely what love each other. I mean, it's so bizarre and it's such a richly drawn ecosystem that now I feel stingy. All of these characters are, of course, going to be bound for other productions or even if they're just cameos. And maybe, as you said, like if Kang is the big bad and this is where we're headed in the MCU for the next five, ten years, it's inevitable. But I kind of want to stay here.

I want to stay in this particular version of it. And the other thing I think that's worth noting that one of the reasons why this show might feel a little bit triumphant and a little bit different is because the great success that Marvel has had, both in its comic books and in its film storytelling for the most part, I'm sure there's going to be an example that I, an exception that I'm overlooking. Generally, they are about, they are stories about ordinary men and women who become super, who become gods. And this was a really smart and fun illustration of the inverse of a god becoming a human. Yeah. And Hiddleston is fantastic at it.

but it actually felt like there was the space and the intellectual writing chops behind all of it to wrestle with those questions. So when they had philosophical debates or divides or whatever, it was both entertaining and it was thought-provoking, you know, about what it meant and what their fate was and free will. I'm so tired of science fiction shows where people just, you know, yell in capes about the importance of free will.

But at the end of this one, had those debates and those conversations. And our hero, who was a liar, was basically like, maybe we shouldn't kill the dictator and create a power vacuum. Maybe what we have is the best. Maybe this is like the best it's going to get. And maybe we should.

And he's a unique voice. He's a unique advocate for that position because of what the complications of the character have been. And I really enjoyed that. How worried should I be about Kang? Like how bad are the bad versions of King? So bad. Real, real, real bad.

I mean, I think that one of the fundamental things of what the character has become over the last 40, 50, 60 years of storytelling is that one line that is almost a throwaway where he's like, I've seen the alternatives and it's just fire. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's how bad it is.

And the thing about a character like Hang is that there's always another one. Always, it's built into the DNA in a very comic booky way, but it actually, it's not just Lex Luthor never quite dying. It's a character who is always 10 steps ahead. or 10 millennia ahead and flipping backwards

and then showing up when you least expect him sometimes informs you least expect him to be. So how different would you have felt if the elevator opens and Ravona's there and she's like, I have another file to show you and at the very last second, almost like in a stinger, there's a picture of Kang. Like how much of your appreciation for the episode

and I guess the show in general was because they actually were like, we are putting some chips down? It was everything. It was totally everything because what it was doing was saying that this show did matter as more than a widget. I mean, as much as I understand how foolish that sounds to a degree like this mattered. But in terms of this just being an extended trailer for Ant Man would have really, really been disheartening, especially considering what great work people put into it. You know, it suggested that there is a, there is not just a point to this storytelling,

but a point that exists within the world of the television show Loki that we will continue to explore and be a part of. I think it would have been a really, and kudos to everyone for acknowledging this and recognizing it, it would have been a really bad feeling to have laid such wonderful groundwork for, you know, just a punt in the final moments. Right. To end on penalties, if you will, Chris. Very frustrating feeling at the end. Let me reverse that question. Okay.

Did you feel like Black Widow was a trailer for Hawkeye then? in the end yes what I was that is it's a great to start at the end of these things

because I have a lot of very positive things to say about Black Widow many more than I expected to and I'm excited to talk to you

about it but it was very it's very odd that the end of Loki not to the Stinger which was only saying

there's going to be a season too which is great but that Loki felt like it had more to say about the Marvel Cinematic Universe ultimately

than Black Widow, which was a movie and used its Stinger to advance a TV show. Yeah, now I don't know what that Stinger may or may not have been had Black Widow come out when it was supposed to come out, which would have been last summer, right? So theoretically...

Yeah, I don't know what show it might have been, maybe it would be Falcon. I don't know, because that's obviously where we see the Julia Louis-Dreyfus character for the first time. but yeah, like I felt like for as monumental or, I mean, at least within Marvel terms, is the finally a standalone film for the Black Widow character is supposed to feel. The very end of it felt almost like clipped, you know, and it was odd.

It almost makes me think, oh yeah, well, in some capacity, she will definitely be coming back. Like, Natasha Romanov will definitely come back into the MCU because they didn't do. 10 minutes of teary tributes to her. You know what I mean? Like the way they do for Iron Man, the way they do for Captain America, the way they would do for any number of characters. I think that what,

well, I think there's, I think there's two things to say. And one is addressing your comment, but also inside of it is my larger complaint about the film. And again, I kind of liked it. And I will tell you why, I promise.

For me, what's always been the most appealing thing about the character, particularly when peeled away from the Avengers, a group that she is not the most natural fit for because she is a, you know, mostly unpowered, although apparently she's concussion-proof, a Russian spy who, you know, who has killed people and works best alone, et cetera, et cetera, when you peel her away, and this has happened in the comics a lot more recently, there's a great Mark Wade and Chris Samney series that I recommend people check out one of the greatest artists working, in my opinion, that really runs right towards the fact that she's a 60s creation, right?

Like she's just kind of pop and fun and espionage and style. And that's exciting. And with Scarlet's Johansson signed on to do it, that in and of itself is a franchise. And so I almost wish they had just done from the backfiles of, and this is something that she was up to and did in between Avengers movies. And you could tell a fun, tonally different story. And that's still on the table. And so my feeling is, to your point about whether she'll be back, this movie's doing gangbusters, especially in the still, you know, changed COVID. marketplace and landscape, it is hugely profitable and it's a big hit. And that's a, you know,

that's a credit to everyone involved and to Scarlett Johansson's appeal as the character. My feeling is rather than do the sort of, remember when Jeremy Renner was going to take over for Tom Cruise and Mission Possible? And literally within the movie, you can tell Tom Cruise be like, eh, I'm okay. So I think that's, exactly. And I think that's why, even though it's right they're on the table for Florence Pugh to be the new Black Widow in the Marvel Universe. And not just on the table because how cool we've come up with this clever fix. She's incredible. And I would love to see her in those movies.

I think that's why the end of this movie doesn't give Scarlett the sendoff. And it doesn't anoint Florence as the new Black Widow. And in fact, it shunts her over to television to say that there's more here. So I think that they're being smart with the optionality of we could have our born identity franchise and just tell spy stories as long as she. wants to do them. And maybe we could be more free to do it because we always, like they always feel they need to do, this had to be an origin story, even though the most labored part of the movie to me was, wait, where in the timeline is this happening? And what are we now retconning about this character? All that stuff was, was burdensome, I think, to me. Now, I do think that this was

handled way less sort of, I don't know, it was never dull to me for the most part, except for the, I feel like the last action sort of sequence and towards the end of the movie got really, really silly. But for the most part, I actually was pretty engaged with, um, with the entire thing.

And I thought it, they did, they did a really interesting thing where they, kind of treated the audience a lot more, uh, like they were a lot more intelligent that I usually find Marvel movies to do. Like, I think that they breeze through this idea that everybody knows what the red room is.

Everybody understands this is, everybody understands this is Drakeoff. These are moments that you may not have quite like remembered from past Marvel movies when they get mentioned, whether it's, I guess, an Ultron. We sort of really find out about what made Natasha, right? There's kind of a flashback to, yeah, to a training program. Obviously, she's on the run after, I guess, is it Civil War? Civil War.

There's a lot of stuff in here where I'm like, oh, yeah, right. That happens in that movie from seven years ago or nine years ago. Shout out to Zikovia Accord. it's still the most important piece of legislation. But I was so glad. I know, seriously. I was so glad that we didn't spend 30 minutes recapping that. And 30 minutes re-explaining this is this woman who is, you know,

she was put through these incredibly, like, traumatic training exercises to become the assassin that she is. And there was some mind control involved. Like all that stuff, I'm so glad that we kind of like powered through that. And I'm especially glad because I don't know if Ray Winston's very, very, very, very, very, very, fleeting grasp on the Russian accent would have held if he had had more screen time. Speaking of Gary Oldman, how many offers did they make? I mean, for a part, written for him.

The Ray Winston is just like, so you need me to do my depotted character. They're like, yes and no, but sometimes? Yeah. That was not the highlight of the movie. And I think that I agree with you about the balance they found between the homework and a new story. I think they found that it was the correct balance they were aiming for.

I did feel more so than in other Marvel properties, the competing hands of the creative teams. You know, three people credited for this, one person credited for the script, two people credited for the story. I'm sure many other people did drafts of it. There were moments that just shone and sparkled and popped, and there were moments that felt more like homework or drudgery,

and the balance between them felt more abrupt, the transitions than generally. I think it's worth mentioning at this point. You kept talking about a straw person who wasn't familiar, necessarily with Civil War or whatever. I would like to offer my wife, hopefully she is okay with this. This was the first Marvel thing she's ever seen.

Okay. And this is because I was like, I'm watching this now on the laptop, and she said, okay, fine. And did she ask every 30 seconds, who is that and what are they doing? No. In fact, I said, before we start, I said, I think it's worthwhile for the experiment

to see how this movie just hangs. If I say nothing, and tell you nothing. And she was thrilled because let me tell you, Chris. 44-year-old man explaining Marvel Cinematic Universe to someone, never, never a good look. I'll say her... Here's their controversial philosophy on reproductive rights in the Red Room. Wow.

Yeah, that speaking of scenes that just kind of came out of nowhere. I will say that her strongest reaction came during the, you know, I think to her felt like the interminable, the Marvel Studios thing is spinning and we're seeing the flat, you know, the thing that we're now used to of all the characters in it. And, you know, you see Captain America throwing the shield and Man Man and Black Panther and all this. And her response to that was, what's the movie with the bear with the gun? I think that's the one I'd want to see. And I said, well, I'm going to stop you there. It's a raccoon voiced by Academy Award nominee Bradley Cooper.

But so I guess we will be revisiting the Guardians of the Galaxy films in this household for the bear with the gun. But I think that her not just lack of familiarity with the characters, but with the cinematic language that these movies do, has worked around the world and which really popped to me, both in contrast to Loki, but also watching at home, which is the relentlessness of the fight language and the action tempo, especially in the first parts of the movie, until they settle down, I mean, basically until they start Natasha's dressing Yelena's wounds. Like, the movie kind of never stops again. And she's like, wait, what are they fighting for? I see, I actually read it more like there was like basically an hour and 15 minutes.

of almost nonstop action in chase, which I didn't mind actually. I thought they were really well staged. I thought it was like, for as much as you're just like, you have that block in your head of like, this person cannot be injured. So all these fights are essentially eye candy.

Like when you get finally to Rachel Vice's character, Melina's house and everybody is like, that's when it starts to calm down. Not only does it calm down, it hits a brick wall. And I think that it's a credit to the actors involved in that scene,

that they are able to get through about a half an hour of talking about feelings after you've been basically chasing Red Bull with trucker speed for like the first hour and 15 minutes in the movie. Yeah, it's not a natural cinematic language from people who have been watching players in the criteria collection. They have an issue with that where it's like, you know, there's the sort of Raiders of the Lost Ark idea that something like action has to happen every 10 minutes to re-engage the audience.

I think Marvel has a tendency to have that happen every 10 minutes, but then when they have any quiet moments, they are really quiet. They are really, really like four people sitting in a room talking about what it means to be a superhero, you know? And I think this is generally true. It's almost as if a different creative team is responsible for them. And creative team is a very fungible term. But I think it's well documented that when Marvel recruits and works with directors, particularly directors that they think, you know, are interesting or exciting or

have vision or work well with actors, they say to them as part of their sales pitch, we will help you with the storyboarding of the action stuff because we know how to do that. And I think that's worked for a lot of people. I don't mean that as a dig at Kate Shortland who directed this film. And I think by and large seems to have done a very good job with it. It didn't, anything that I'm, that I'm personally dinging. I don't felt, I didn't seem to me like to be directorial missteps. But let me give you one other way into this movie, which was my way into it. And I was very feeling very pessimistic and

negative about having to watch this on my laptop because I couldn't even watch it on a TV because where I'm at, that wasn't even possible. We do not have a device to do that. So watching it on my laptop, feeling bummed about it. And the experience I had, though,

for the first 20 minutes of this movie, left me feeling something very strange and unexpected and took me a minute to realize what it was. And it was like the experience last year when the world shut down and then all the best restaurants in LA were like, okay, you can just have our food

at home. Do you guys want to take out? Yeah. And so then you bring home these like unassuming, non-promising boxes and you open them. And then you have sensory overload of like salt and fat and flavor that you never have in your home. Yeah. And so I was staring at this movie on the same box

that I watch, you know, Loki on. Loki's not a good example because Loki's obviously from the same kitchen. Yeah, but then you get like mad over. overhead shots of European cities. And then when you get to the end of the movie, they're like, thank you to the people of Oslo and Budapest

for letting us film there. The opening, which is just like beasts of the Southern Wild or something, meets the Americans. And by the way, I felt like it was better than the Americans' final season, the first 10 minutes of this movie. I was like, I was so in. I was dangerously in. Like, I couldn't believe how transfixed I was by the opening.

The blue-haired girl and where are they going? now they're on a plane and what is even happening and I was thrilled and that was fun. That was honestly fun. And in some ways maybe it made me overrate the film to a degree because I was just so on board. There clearly is

and maybe it's location shooting, it's tempo, it's pace, it's budget, but there is a difference still. It was nice to see. There's also the difference for the fact that we did not spend four hours wondering who Taskmaster was. Right.

Which is exactly what would have happened if this had been a show. We would have spent a month of our lives being like, who's taskmaster? Who could be the taskmaster? Now, I don't know if in comics that's a well-known thing. When you're reading, you're always aware of that it's Drake off's daughter or whatever. But, like, when I was watching it, I was like, cool character.

Shout out Olga Karolenko. And then, like, she gets dispatched within the confines of a movie. Now, you may be like that now is like sort of like an afterthought. But if that had been a show, we would have had a very, very, very long debate about, like, how are they dispatching this person and who is going to be the taskmaster when they finally, like, reveal who it is? And it could be this person or that person. What will they mean for future episodes? Or, yeah, for future seasons of TV and the movies. What was most noteworthy to me, I guess, in the midst of this, in the fight scenes, and the

backstory and whatever, is that there was still room for two of the most noteworthy, memorable, and to my mind, fantastic performances in recent Marvel Cinematic History. And we've already mentioned Florence Pugh, we should circle back to her before we're done. But I do want to just take a moment to stand up and salute David Harbor.

I hope he gets to share a scene with Jonathan Majors at some point. It's a similar thing, right? Yeah. Just throwing ham sandwiches at one another. He does have a gravity, though, Harbor, you know, that like he's good at this in almost everything he does where he can be extremely broad in the margins

or in whatever the genre, you know, expectations are. And this is true and stranger things too. But because of the pathos that he just carries as a performer, you buy it and you feel for him. And I loved what they did with the character, the Red Guardian, which does exist in the comic books. I love the sort of just deep comedic sadness to him.

And I also thought that there were moments. And again, they just sort of bubbled up out of nowhere. And I don't know if these were revisions or like a script doctor or one of the people who worked on in particularly that was what they did. Whether it was Jack Schaefer, we should note who has a story by credit, who's the showrunner of Wanda Vision. But like the whole bit with the earpiece, right? There's the moment later in the movie where Rachel Wise is communicating with Florence Pugh. And then David Harbour decides that he also wants to speak to his adopted daughters. and says some things, and they're like, you don't have one.

You don't have a piece. It's just great business, and it was a lot of fun. And this idea of this weird, superpowered fake family, in and of itself is a good idea that got as much attention as it could in the midst of all the explosions and the larger MCU significance. But I thought that was great.

Rachel Vise getting to be a Black Widow is just awesome as a huge fan of hers. And Florence Pugh, like, it's one of those things where they were like, yeah, you're next. Sure. You are the next person who can do this.

And in some ways, they're betting right in a lot of ways so far. I mean, when you think about it, all these shows have sort of been, if not make goods, they're like, you know what,

we're going to spend a little time with some of the secondary characters that you know and love from these 10 years of movies. And in the process, they have introduced a couple of pretty cool new people. Now, whether or not

that carries over because somebody is like, oh yeah, Florence Pugh, she was in the second half of Black Widow or Jonathan Majors, right? He's in the last scene of Loki or whatever. Like, are, is Wyatt Russell going to, like, sear himself into people's consciousness as, as U.S. agent going forward?

I don't know. You know, I don't know, I don't know if U.S. agent and Kang and Florence Pugh's character from Black Widow are going to, like, ever rise up the way those first group of Avengers just seemed to completely take over popular culture in a lot of ways? It's all mixed up in terms of what's movies, what's TV, what feels significant,

what feels lasting, and I'm not sure which weighs up, and I think that's probably how Disney wants it, because they're just going to keep throwing content at us. Yeah. But the intentional mirroring of how the Avengers, first Avengers team was formed with Sam Jackson showing up at the end of

the Hulk movie and Iron Man and then putting these pieces together, I have to say that, and I love Julie Dreyfus, one of great actors of our time, certainly comedic actors of our time, it feels smaller. It just feels a little smaller. It feels like, and maybe it's because she's assembling the Thunderbolts, not the Avengers, you know, and she's particularly targeting the people who are like the knockoffs of the original heroes, and that's where we're going with the secondary versions, etc. But it doesn't

feel as auspicious. And, you know, Florence Pugh is such a rocket ship of talent. And I love the character and in some ways improves on, not Scarlet Johansson as a performer, but just in terms of her point of view and her attitude and her humor. She's so much looser, yeah. She's looser and she's livelier. So it's a chance to maybe correct something going forward. You know, it felt, it did feel a little bit strange to me to harness that electricity and then punt it over into the Hawkeye series. Because you and I, look, I've said it a hundred times and I'll say it again. It appears that they're basing the Hawkeye series on one of the great comic book runs the last 20 years, Matt Fractions, Hawkeye series.

Check it out if you haven't. Could not be more here for that. And you and I have had a long history with Jeremy Renner and liking his work. I'm finding it harder and harder to root for him as a performer and as a person and was honestly a little bummed when his face is in that picture because we're going back to that.

And as you said, Marvelous had such a great track record of betting correctly and playing the long game that all of this felt a little. And this is super concerned. I think by the end of the Hawkeye series, it's going to be Haley Steinfeld's show. And it's going to be her character. Yeah, and that is,

and that move towards the replacements towards the sidekicks. I mean, that happened in comics, and it's going to happen in the movies, too, as actors age out or are pushed out. But it's a transitional moment. And I guess maybe what was so striking, if we're going to compare these things,

before we wrap up, Loki felt whole. And that was a really satisfying experience. Black Widow is a much more interesting movie than I thought it was going to be. It is better by far than a lot of the mid-tier Marvel films. I mean, like, this was better than Captain Marvel, I think, by an enormous stretch. Yes. But it was bumpy in ways that spoke to the moment of where these movies are and all the things that we, that we and the marketplace ask of them.

That's really well put. We can wrap it up there. So just a little bit of programming, Andy and I are off next week. So we will not be doing new shows next week. enjoy White Lotus, enjoy the Northwater, because we'll come back the following week

at some point, maybe not Monday, but we'll see and we'll hit up all those shows. Greenwald, until then, man, have a great vacation.

We won't leave you for long. Enjoy your summer break, for instance. Bye, guys.