The Watch - Emmy Winners (and Losers) With Mike Schur, Amanda Dobbins, and Alison Herman (Ep. 186)

Episode Date: September 18, 2017

The Ringer’s Andy Greenwald, Amanda Dobbins, and Alison Herman rehash the highlights and star power of Sunday night's 69th annual Emmy Awards (1:00). They discuss the best moments and speeches and the big nights for ‘The Handmaid’s Tale,' ‘Big Little Lies,' and Hulu (10:00), while also attempting to understand the 'Stranger Things' shutout (15:00). Later Andy is joined by comedy writer and cocreator of ‘The Good Place’ Mike Schur to discuss Emmy topics including the Sean Spicer’s surprise appearance and what it’s like to see your friends win awards (36:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Go to beautiful places. Travel, live your life. Download the Hotel Tonight app now. to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the Watch, part of the Ringer podcast network. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no official title at the Ringer.com.

My good friend, Chris Ryan, who does have an official title, is on vacation. He's swanning around the continent somewhere, which means he missed the 69th annual Emmy Awards, which is a shame. He's also missing the chance to talk to other Ringer colleagues and good friends who are taking his place today to pick up the slack to talk about the Emmys. Amanda Dobbins and Alison Herman, welcome. Thanks for having me. Andy, I'm so excited to be here on this day, of all days, and to talk to you about Big Little

Eyes. You mean the day the Crown didn't win? It's fine. It's fine. You're okay? As long as Andy Greenwald's favorite show on television swept the category, we're all good. We have a lot to talk about, guys. I should also say that later in the show, I will be joined by Mike Schur, who was an Emmy

nominee last night as executive producer of Master of Nun. You talked about the experience at the award ceremony last night, award ceremonies in general, and the second season of The Good Place, which is premiering on Wednesday. Do you guys like that show? Allison, you're a fan. I'm a fan. I'm also a fan of the second season. Oh, see, see, this is the thing. You get the screeners now. Hashtag screener privilege. Season two is very good. Like season one. I'm glad to hear it. Look, we're breaking news here on the show. Okay, gang, Emmys were last night. Let's talk about them. Obviously, we want to start with the only headline that matters to our culture. Amanda Dobbins. It's not the only one, but it's the one that matters most for our relationship. Our relationship? Yes.

Because you, Andy Greenwald, did not enjoy Big Little Eyes. Here's the thing. I have had to do this first with Allison in front of these same microphones. Yeah, it's great. And now you're here. It's not that I didn't enjoy Big Little Lies the series. It's that I didn't enjoy Big Little Lies the first hour, at which point I abandoned it. Yes.

And having accepted your apology on behalf of the entirety of the series. television-moving audience. And the Academy, apparently. It's true. Yeah. This was, look, it clearly was, I said this to you then, a high-quality, well-received production. Even I got a little thrill seeing those five ladies up on stage together, the gang back together.

Absolutely. Tell me, bring it. Well, I think, no, we don't need to relitigate it. You've been properly shamed by everyone here. Now that I just, I've associated myself with the group of people who want to shame me. you and we can move on. But no, you made a good point, which is that the thrill of seeing those five women together on stage was kind of the thrill of the show. And I think Allison wrote a really good piece that was about kind of the star power of last night. And that is what made Big Little

Eyes great. And it was very fun. You know, it was entirely replicable at an awards show that I thought kind of needed it. So that was fun as well. I enjoyed Nicole Kidman learning what television was for the first time. Yeah. Because the acceptance speech for the best drama, or I'm sorry, Best Limited series.

Yeah. She explained the concept of having Big Little Eyes in your living room as if she had literally never considered that that is what TV could do. No.

Which is amazing. She's never seen television. Yeah. Although my favorite TV, What Is That Who Are You? Peon's moment was definitely Shailene Woodley on the red carpet

being like, actually, I read books. Yeah. Gross. Also, I voted for Bernie Sanders and E. Clay. That's like the three facts about her you need to know. So I would say, we buried the important point that Shalene made, which is who has the time? Great point.

And, you know, I kind of felt, I thought the awards show overall was fine. I think shows that we like won more than shows we didn't like. I think there were a lot of, oh, that's great moments. Hey, look at that. Donald Lever won. And Lita Wath one. Like, that was nice. Riz Ahmed.

I think that there was no center last night. There was nothing, there was no one show that everyone was really excited about and rooting for. But that's like TV itself. Yes, because there's so much. And really, who has the time, as Shailene Woodley asked, to watch all of it? Here's my feeling, and I want to know your thoughts about this as well. I feel like last night television finally became president. And what I mean is, and here's what I mean, in covering the show in my previous life as a critic and obviously having watched it before that,

there was always this air to the Emmys of Redheaded Stepchild, where movie stars who dared to show up having made a window in their schedule to parachute in for an HBO movie that maybe was supposed to be a movie movie, but then financing got messed up, and then they win just by showing up, that movies were somehow doing TV a favor, that they had something to apologize for. And that narrative ran counter to the fact that TV is completely dominant. Last night felt like a victory lap in that people like Nicole Kemp. Kidman and Reese Witherspoon, whether they had ever watched television before or not, didn't feel almost like awshucks embarrassed to be there. This was an exciting room to be in.

This was a creative community that was vibrant. And also, the story that the Emmys told us about TV is a story that the TV industry wants to tell. It was a very diverse group of winners, both in terms of obviously the actors, but also in terms of the services and networks that were represented. It was a fairly wide net cast. And to me, that unified it more than any one dominant program. There was a lot of, to be perfectly blunt, self-satisfied backpadding in a lot of different respects. There was that entire bizarre montage applauding the Academy for how diverse television is. There was a lot of the political humor, basically saying, you know, we're subversive or standing up to power.

That was completely undercut five minutes into the show by the presence of Sean Spicer. Yep. But I actually found maybe it's coming as a critic where I have a running list of like maybe, 50 notable shows this year. I found that this Emmys was almost uniquely centralized in that, you know, the big story going into this year was Game of Thrones wasn't eligible, which leaves this big vacuum. And I think there was at least some optimism via the various networks competing for scraps that there would be a little bit of well-sharing and a little bit of splitting that monolith, and then it all went to the Handmaid's Tale, because the Handmaid's Tale is important.

That was really interesting to me. I did not see that coming at all. I thought This Is Us would win because the network's thought broadcast networks would think this is one last chance. I also thought that, you know, the trades always run before every awards show the clueless old white voters anonymous opinions. And, you know, not to generalize, but I will because those anonymous voters always do. This Is Us is an easier watch than Handmaid's Tale. But I think, Alison, that's a really good point because you would think that with Game of Thrones obviously going to dominate next year again. Maybe the Americans could win for writing and Better Call Saul could win for directing. and maybe it would be a little bit more democratic.

But no, it was Handmaid's Tale. So, Amanda, why? Why do you think this won? Because it won every category it was nominated in basically, didn't it? Well, obviously politics are the through line of the show. And I think we can talk a lot about all the interesting shows that were nominated and the Academy is really evolving and recognizing writer-driven programs and things we really care about. But it's a large group of industry-adjacent awards voting people.

So everyone is just ticking boxes at some point. You know, and I think that's true. They don't all watch all the shows. Yes, exactly. How many people who voted for a Handmaid's Tale for Best Drama actually watched past episode four? It's a valid question. You know, and we can admire the ambition of that show, and obviously the craftsmanship and the acting. There's a lot going on.

But I think everyone at these microphones has agreed that it was not perfect. No. Yeah. So, you know, it's like any other, it's the same big little I swept that category because people, like to vote in blocks. People actually... Although I think people really like Big Little Lies,

and I'm not saying this just to make you guys like me more. I think that is... That was a crowd pleaser. Not this crowd, guys, but most crowds. I mean, also,

the flip side of the Handmaid's Tale totally sweeping drama was all of a sudden SNL is winning Emmys again. Yeah. People who are not actual employees of the show are winning Emmys for S&L.

You're right, Alec Baldwin winning Best Supporting Actor in a comedy for a show that he is not in the cast of is remarkable. It's preposterous.

Although he looked great, By the way, he must be doing the right kind of yoga with his wife because I thought he was, do you see his insistent lean when he was giving the award? Like the angle of his body was like a feral catch. But yeah. Tough speech, not great. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting because it is obviously a very rich time for television. There are a lot of shows that everyone feels passionate about. I thought last night was a great example of kind of no one feels passionate about the same shows. And so I thought last night was everyone. trying to come to a consensus and trying to do the awards thing that we do of agreeing, this is what we're passionate about. And it doesn't quite fit with this moment of television, totally, because there were great moments. There were a lot of things that we liked that won, like Master of None, or, I mean, big little eyes, sure, but. Or the crown in your case. John Lithgow.

Yeah, that's true. John Lithgow did win. Shout out Winston Churchill. My girl, Claire, was snubbed, but she has a golden globe. But, you know, it was interesting. It didn't totally feel, it felt a little force sometimes. The S&L, the Handmaid's Tale of just kind of like, the television can still produce dynamos.

I agree. My feeling about award shows in general is that they're ridiculous. I think we all agree about that. But I also think the way to judge them is often by their best moments and not their worst. And in this three hours of highs and lows, Black Mirror won two. Charlie Booker and Black Mirror won two Emmys, Donald Glover and Dowell. part of the Handmaid's Tale collective, but in my alternate universe,

she won for the leftovers and quarry. Mine too. There's this world where if the biggest complaint we have about the ceremony is either about the larger meta-narrative or about people winning who maybe were tired of them, like Veep, it's hard to argue against Veep

other than it would be nice for other people to win, right? The same with Julie Lerifis. Likewise. I have this sort of grand unified theory of the Emmys that I'm debuting on this podcast. But, you know, there's long been this recognized category of Oscar B, which is sort of this middle brow, not the best, not terrible. And even, you know, when I go into a given cinematic year, I generally expect that my top five favorite movies, maybe one of them will get a screenplay nomination, but the things that I consider genuinely, always that, but always, you know, the things that I consider the most subversive

and interesting are not going to win Oscars, and I have long made my piece with that. And I think TV for a while actually did a pretty decent job of recognizing the peak because it or this is the sort of cream of the crop because there was a finite amount of shows worth talking about. And now in the past few years of peak TV, I think we've seen, there's not only a category of shows that are too bad to be recognized for Emmys, but there's also the young Pope, the leftovers, halt and catch fire, probably next year Twin Peaks the return as much as it pains me to say it, but just shows that, you know, I've sort of made my piece in advance with the fact that they're two weird and too niche to actually catch the attention of this body that is instead going to

seize onto big little lies in the Handmaid's Tale and SNL. But it is a funny thing where, and I think it's a sign of the glut and the bounty of television right now, that the shows were sort of rolling our eyes a little bit about, like, VeeP Handmaid's Tale on Saturday Night Live, like these are not Transformers 4. You know what I mean? Or those aren't even middle brow Oscar bait. You know, I think they are all interesting, worthwhile things in their own right. I feel like we're operating from a position of strength as fans.

Totally. I mean, if the middle is Handmaid's Tale, I totally agree that's a good place. But the Handmaid's Tale is also something where it's like if it were a movie, it's a high-profile topical adaptation with a star of the medium and really high-calibre source material. Like that is something that, or, you know, big little lies is something where I'm sure if it were cut down to two and a half hours, it would have swept the Oscars in the exact same circumstance. And so I just think it's very interesting to now I've adjusted my expectation where even, you know, in the animation category, something like Bojack Horseman doesn't even crack that because that's also very, you know, enclosed. And it's something that's almost made me more, I'm so much less invested. I'm not furious than And Dow didn't win for the leftovers because I had checked my expectations. And now I can kind of approach the Emmys as a, okay, this is a temperature check.

This is what the Academy thinks of itself. I mean, it's just, it's an interesting time because you don't have to have to have. consensus in TV anymore, which is great as a viewer because I get the crown and you get chef's table and Allison gets her animated shows about depressed dudes. I actually think chef's table's overrated. Okay. Is that not that, I'm sorry, what's the show about? Samurai Gourmet. Yes, I'm sorry. I confuse the shows about people. The Ivan Orchid episode, however, was fantastic. That was good, but the tables are turned now. And so we can all watch those on our own time and that's great. And I think we're all much happier as viewers. And it's just when you try to come to

and agree on what's the best. Yeah. It's a little underwhelming, which is not to say that DMEs did a bad job. As you said, they did a pretty good job. It's also always, I think it's always important for us to note that, like, the quote-unquote, problems of this are especially problematic for those of us on this side of the ball. Whereas if you're a viewer and you have all the shows you like, it doesn't matter. But if we're trying to, like, divine some larger industry motive or make a top 10 list or something,

it's, or review all of them as you have to do, I mean, it's very challenging. But also, if you're a viewer, or more importantly, if you are Hulu, it is good to watch something like this and be like, okay, I've gotten a unified message as to what should be at the top of my queue. I will pay this monthly fee much to Hulu's satisfaction. They are going to get so many subscribers out of this, which is exactly the calculus that they had. If we do, I didn't ask you to prepare for this, and I am, nor am I prepared for this, but we could try. We would do some sort of winners and losers separate and apart from the people

who actually got trophies, the easy number one is Hulu. Hulu already was sort of sneaky coming up strong because they have this incredible backlog of not just reruns, but recently rerun shows. So you can subscribe to Hulu. You have no ads and you can just watch last night's television, basically. I recommend the bold type on Hulu. All the episodes are there. Having a great time.

They also have original shows. Me too. And for them to basically say, like, okay, we like all these networks have over the last few years, we need to take a big swing. We need to get people to notice us. They went all in on Handmaid's Tale, which is not an obvious pick for that slot. And they were obviously developing other properties. This is beyond anyone's wildest expectations for this show.

It already ticked every box and needed it to just by getting the response that it got. But now they're players. They poached Joel Stillerman, who ran AMC during a lot of its peak years to run their programming. And now they're off to the races. So now there's another competitor out there. It's totally the best case scenario and something that was flowed. in our internal conversations last night is it's not the worst case scenario for Netflix, but it's definitely less ideal than they had in mind.

Yeah, they're not happy today. They are. I mean, you guys know this. We all live in Los Angeles, strangely, but we do. And Chris and I've talked about this on the show. The for-year consideration season is officially a season here. There's, well, there's only two other seasons, right? Summer and not quite summer.

But then there's also for-year consideration season where it's just the town is blanketed with billboards and bus ads. and panels trying to get Emmy nominations. Netflix rented a mansion and just ran it. Like, constantly events for their shows. This matters to them. This is their, for their shareholders, for their people where they're literally buying stock in them. Emmys matter. And the fact that they were not the first streaming service to win Best Drama Series,

I'm not saying heads are rolling. I think, you know, and they picked up Master of Nun and The Crown and Black Mirror, which was on Netflix. So they didn't have a bad night. But I suppose what do you make of the Stranger Things kind of shut out? I am weirdly relieved by it. Not that I didn't like the show, and I'm looking forward to the second season, but that seemed to me it didn't fit because Stranger Things, I don't know. I mean, I'm curious what you guys think of it.

I think it was entertaining. I think it was well done. And I think it was popular. Those are great things. The phenomenon such as it is felt very manufactured. first by fan intensity, which was last year, but then over the last year by literally Netflix carting those kids around in a sack and just pushing them out under red carpets whenever they could, it didn't have the range to use an internet meme.

It just didn't belong in that group. It felt very analogous, kind of like the flip side to the This Is Us gets an upswing because it just proves that broadcast TV matters again. And obviously, Stranger Things serves a purpose in terms of establishing streaming, but at least it proves like there can be a consensus hit still. There can be a thing that everyone likes it as entertained by and no one is mad at. I personally am kind of a Stranger Things hater in that. I also had it perfectly entertaining but found the like phenomenon of it baffling

and in the case of the kids getting trotted out a little grading. But I, you know, I was like you a little relieved to see that just the pure strength of this is popular and we need our own relevance affirmed was not enough to bring it over the finish line. Another thing that's interesting, Stranger Things was so clearly a blog hit. So you could kind of argue the internet is a little bit of loser. You know, your tweets are not doing as much as we thought they might be. Your Barb memes. Right, which is interesting.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think another winner, HBO, in a year without Game of Thrones, who knows what they were expecting or what they thought, but to dominate with big little eyes and then in the night of doing very well as well, Veepe winning again. Julia Louis Dreyfus, who is 56 years old and looks astonishing. I think because she actually takes the gold from her trophies and applies them to her face every night. There's something. HBO winning, and I think FX, I mean, Atlanta is incalculably huge for them on a number of levels. But Fargoa got drowned out. Americans had an off year.

And the Ryan Murphy machine was just buried under the avalanche of Star Power. I mean, it's sort of funny because Ryan Murphy, like, single-handed, jump started the limited series category as something that is now like the most crowded out of any of them because he came up with the whole American Horror Story gimmick and feud is in there. And then Big Little Lies basically just like beat feud at its own game. I mean also on the HBO note, they won Big Little Lies in a bidding war with Netflix. God knows how much money like not just the production but just that, you know, tuss what cost them. But it was clearly money well spend. And in some ways, it's kind of a case for week-to-week event TV that is not streaming. So, like,

Stranger Things was something that got kind of dumped and then slow-built over summer. And then Big Little Lies was something that was like the thing to watch on Sunday night for seven weeks. And that was it. For most people. Except for Andy Graham-law. I felt, no, but I love that you made that point. I think that's exactly right. And my, what regrets I do have, and I'm, you know, you guys know, I'm very forthcoming about my regrets in all areas of my life. The Paris period, you know, I don't think I'm. I think that was a mistake. Jazz wasn't for me.

But I missed that part of it. The fact that I misjudged, I didn't like, as you know, I'm not going to say it again. I didn't like the first episode. I did say it again. But I missed that all of a sudden everyone was having fun without me. And that's one of the best things about TV is to be able to jump on that train early and be on it with all your pals and your pal Reese. As sort of my come down viewing, I did rewatch the first episode of Big Little Lies last night. And that's exactly the thought I had.

It's like, this is so fun. This is so pleasurable. The clothes are so nice and the houses are so expensive, but also just like watching Reese Witherspoon wild out is so pleasurable. Let's talk a little bit about the show as a show. I was impressed that Stephen Colbert brought the ship in on time. Usually these go much longer. I think they started to feel themselves when they realized they could end it in three hours. And thus, these speeches were aggressively rushed.

And I think that's a bummer because why do we watch these things? Except for Nicole Kidman, who just definitely thought she was at the Oscars. She was definitely giving an Oscar speech. Like, she was flashing back. So, yeah, that was very unfortunate that they cut off Sterling K. Brown. And he got to finish his speech backstage and you should go watch it if you didn't. I mean, he won the night, for sure, in terms of speeches. Because he prepared also.

It was a beautiful speech, but he was ready for it. Also, just the power of his charisma is such that he was basically like, I am winning at life. I went to Stanford. I'm just like Andre Brower, and it did not come off. It's a great point. It's a really great point. It was entirely charming. I didn't even notice that.

He's bragging about his college. I mean, wow, good work by him. It was just like a checklist of dick moves that was insanely compelling and only made me like him more. Other speeches that stood out for you guys. I mean, lead away for sure. That was really, really moving and great. And that episode of Master of None, whatever you think of the season was fantastic. Riz Ahmed.

Oh, that was amazing. Also, I will never not be surprised by the Riz Ahmed accent. I know. He needs to be able to be allowed to do it. That's my thesis. This is a great point. I would also add Donald Glover, hashtag the great algorithm. Yeah.

It's also funny that Donald Glover made this point in his speech that I don't think was true for him at all, but weirdly ended up being the theme of his night, which is he was like, I'm going to think Trump. I think he's part of the reason I'm up here right now. Yeah, that was interesting. Atlanta more than succeeded at some terms, but he ended up inadvertently commenting on this theme that we. We've covered already, but politics won the night. It's true. But the thing about Atlanta, well, Atlanta and I, you know, this is true of Handmaid's Tale, too, things that are made in one universe and then were born into the world in a different universe. Atlanta was made during, not when Trump was president, came out.

I guess it spanned it, right? Didn't the show premiere last September? Yeah, I think it must have ended just after the election because it was 10 weeks in a premier. That is a show that, well, it's a brilliant show on a number of levels, one of which is that it is essentially. a political show, but it is not a political show in quotes. You know what I mean? And so the engagement and the enthusiasm and the emotional effect of that show was amplified. Also, he looks great in a purple tuxedo. So great. So great. I loved Ann Dowd's speech. I loved seeing her win. I mean, you think about when she's just kept saying, for this to happen to me now, it was really wonderful.

I was thrilled to see Lizzie Moss win. She is, I think, the MVP of television and had not won. an award before. It's interesting that the Emmys are now doing kind of the consolation awards in the vein of the Oscars, where people win possibly not for their best performance. And that's not to diminish Elizabeth Moss's performance on Handmaid's Tale, but just to say that Peggy is an all-timer. And she never won for that. And Dow, as you guys mentioned, kind of had overtones of winning for leftovers and just

for being endowed as much. So that's funny. I would also like to recommend there's an incredible conversation. that Vulture did between character actresses and Dowd and Margaret Martin Dale. That is one of the most pleasurable reads I've had in the last year. I also think while we're talking about the show, I think Colbert was exactly the right choice. That was my next question. I think there's sort of this boring slash frustrating trend of awards hosting right now

where the network that gets it just picks whichever late night host is more suited to that particular moment. But I think I found the opening number about how TV is escapism and everything's better on TV was so good. And honestly, if it weren't for that incredibly ill-advised by Sir Camio, I would have given him a much higher grade. It was exactly the right overall sentiment. And then he just torpedoed himself, which was so frustrating. Almost everything right. But that almost is, we'll probably stick with him. I agree.

And just as we've been talking right before we sat down, that was the thing in the times about how that was Colbert's idea. I mean, it wasn't like forced on him by CBS trying to both sides it. But if we can excise that one false note, and I don't know if we can. I thought he was generally great. And I think that it was a culmination of a year in which he has figured out how to be Stephen Colbert, not in quotes, and be a performer and keep the parts of the comedy central character that we love. That opening number was terrific. He is a song and dance man. The Westworld thing was really funny.

He didn't, and he was present, but he didn't seem overbearing in those parts of the night when it's two hours in. There's nothing more for him to do, really. I was impressed by that. I think he's sort of perfect in that he is an incredibly old school showman who looks like your dignified uncle, but he is also so good at being of the moment in progressive. And weirdly, like, one of the most charming bits of the night for me was when he announced, oh, I've landed this exclusive interview with Emmy. I just rolled my eyes and was like, this is going to be the dumbest sketching world. I'm going to fast forward two minutes. And then the Emmy is RuPaul, who was making jokes about drag and tea and like all these slang words on CBS, which has an average.

viewer age of like 72. I mean, I was just watching it. And Colbert is so willing to play the straight man and be sort of amusingly freaked out or weirded out. And I just couldn't believe that I was watching this on like a national awards broadcast. It was so charming and it was so interesting that Colbert presents very small-sea conservative in some ways. And yet he's very willing to bring things into 2017. Let's wrap up by trying to pitch forward a little bit. Obviously next year, Game of Thrones will probably win everything, so this conversation may be rendered moot.

What happened, Amanda, what things last night, what happened last night in your mind that is predictive of either TV trends or of people who now will dominate in the way that Julie Lui-Dreyfus has dominated or what can we take away from this? the show. Well, I think Allison made a very good point in her piece that on the ringer.com. On the ringer.com, if you've ever heard of it, that movie stars are here to stay and that TV is now where everyone wants to be for a lot of reasons. And so you'll probably see more Nicole Kidman's. Reese Witherspoon will be back. Maybe she'll actually win this time. Maybe Nicole Kittman will talk to her. Though I would like to, no, I'm sorry, it was Laura Dern who snubbed Reese Witherspoon. But I... Did she? Yes, there was video of it. But I think it was honestly that Laura Dorn was overwhelmed than I believe in their friendship.

They've done two projects together. Yes. So I... Shout out to my wild hive. So it was called? Yes, exactly. So I think there will be more very bold names is kind of what I would guess. And then I think also I don't think Hollywood's obsession with politics is going to and political shows is going to change anytime soon.

In fact, I think we'll get more of it. That doesn't, that makes me worried. think that I'm not thinking it's a good thing. Yeah, no, the shows that are political shows without intending to be are usually the best shows, you know. Right. And, you know, say what you will about Handmaid's Tale, but it was certainly timely. It was not intentionally timely. Exactly right. That was in the works while before Donald Trump won the elections. So when people are actually trying to reckon with it via art, it gets, it gets. But low-key, one of my favorite moments of the night was Handmaid's Tale winning Best Drama and then Bruce Miller waiting as long as he could to avoid

avoid the optics of the man taking the award for Handmaid's Tale and like trying to literally just basically fold Margaret Adwood into him so that maybe they could accept it together. I will say that strenuous ever decide. The optics of Reese and Nicole jointly accepted for Big Little Lies followed immediately by a man giving the speech for The Handmaid's Tale was not the best look in the world. No. I mean, what are you going to do? I mean, Bruce Miller did, was the showrunner of the show.

But I was happy to see Reed Morano certainly win as well for her. Oh, and by the way, that was another piece on The Ringer that I think people should check out, was your conversation with newly minted Emmy Award winner Reed Murano, director of The Handmaid's Tale. Alison, same question to you about predictive trends from last night's show. I don't know about predictions, but on my wish list is, like Game of Thrones this year, Atlanta, I don't think will be eligible next year because it's taking a buy because Star Wars. And turnover is always good at the show. I agree.

That is their biggest pitfall is that because the same thing. are up every year unlike any other award show, the same things tend to get nominated. And obviously drama is a lost cause because Game of Thrones is going to be Game of Thrones. But I would like to see an equally new, transgressive, interesting, what have you, take the comedy categories next year. That's like my dearest fish. I would like to see that too. I think we're one year away from that because Vip will be on its victory lap for its last season next year. And we'll probably go out strong.

But in general, I have to say my takeaways are just positive. I feel very optimistic about it because we have fully switched over the economies in television, which isn't to say that they aren't the way they always were for the broadcast networks, but the economy of the streaming services, which is to invest in properties that get attention, get Emmys, which translate into subscribers, which translates into good buzz, which supports shareholders, which is a completely different economy than we need a million people, you know, a million, 20 million people to watch this on a Tuesday night, so Procter and Gamble will give us the money to make it. The shift into that has produced high-quality shows that really aren't as concerned with market testing.

And so we get Atlanta and Black Mirror and even Big Little Lies is a celebrity slam dunkathon, but they went for it. And Procter & Gamble wasn't going to underwrite it, but AT&T, HBO, you know, Shineheart Whig Company will. So that's a good takeaway. Handmaid's Tale, we didn't love it. I think, can I speak for us when we say that? But so that's how you're going to win is by adapting Margaret Atwood novels? Okay. I will say the only award I was truly giving some side-eye that the Handmaidstale got was the writing for a pilot that was mostly airlifted from Margaret Atwood.

Obviously, Margaret Atwood writes better than anyone, but that means, you know, the effort it takes to crafted original pilot's stripped is perhaps less than it was for some other nominees. Yes. Yes, and I also, in the same way that this was one of the funnier bits, the Colbert and Kimmel drinking the British cocktail that's only served once a week. That was very good. Very good. And I also, in a lower key way, I feel that way, about pilots winning versus episodes of shows that have been running for a while because pilots are completely different animal and are honed over months or years,

whereas episode 11 in season five is a very different thing. So it's weird that they're always up against each other. Does that mean that you will watch episode two of Big Little Eyes? Do I have to? No, I'm just asking you. You guys were generous enough to come on this podcast and speak to me about the show. If all I have to do in return is watch an hour of what purports to be deeply pleasurable television, I can probably find time. I think that's a great challenge.

The wine enthusiast in you, I'm sure, can find a way. Follow up. Do I have to watch any more of the crown? Allison. Oh, wow. I'm just kidding. I already know your answer. I should maybe not say this in front of my editor or highly edit myself.

I think you should maybe watch the, is it the ninth episode that was nominated when they finally fight? Is that the one where they're trapped in the super lab with the fly? Yes, exactly. Yes. Bottle episode? Love it. I mean, there are a couple episodes of the Crown. I have my issues with the overall series, but I'm glad that John Lithgow got a trophy.

Do what you want. That's the lesson of last night. Watch whatever you want. That's the lesson of TV in 2017. Yeah. One thing that you should all want to do is stick around for my interview with Mike Sher. We'll do more Emmy Talk, and then we'll talk about season two of The Good Place, which premieres on Wednesday. My good friends and colleagues, Amanda and Allison, thank you for joining me.

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Yeah, that's how I like to be introduced is multiple time Emmy Award Watcher, Mike Shore. Congratulations. You just introduced yourself. Mike, you're such a podcast veteran at this point. Yeah. Thank you for being here. It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

I know you know that we, that I will say the words Reese Hoskins at some point during this conversation. Great. We shouldn't start there because it is Monday morning. The 69th annual Emmys were last night. And the Good Play Season 2 is premiering this week. So I have something I want to talk to you about. about and then you have something that we both want to talk about. So I'm just, I apologize.

I assume you are not, you don't wake up the Monday after the Emmys excited to vent about what happened the night before or am I wrong about that. You know, everybody in who's a writer or a performer or a producer has their own, his or her own sort of specific relationship to the Emmys. And there's always venting. There's always discussion. It's hard. part of my personal problem with the Emmys is that it sort of co-ops you into having to discuss it.

You know what I mean? Like none of us asked for this. We didn't get into writing or producing or acting because we wanted to win an Emmy usually. But it's sort of it's the system that exists. And you're sort of, it's like it's a, you can't opt out. You are in the system and you are forced to care about the system at some level. and anything, any approach you take towards the ceremony, towards the decisions that are made,

feels like a kind of stance. Even if you say, like, I don't care. I'm not going to watch it. That itself is a stance on the Emmys, you know? It's a no-win situation. So, yeah, there's always a little bit of discussion, griping and complaining and whatever the next day. But it's best usually to keep it to a minimum,

or else it'll drive you crazy. Well, I will keep it to a minimum, I promise. But I must say it, I think it's a little hypocritical, but I think it's also valid to say that a word ceremony are generally arbitrary and ridiculous. And yet, because we live in the world we live in, it is also an acknowledged crime against humanity that Steve Carell and Amy Poehler did not win Emmys.

For both on shows that you worked on. Just as two examples, yeah, off the top of your head, just as two examples you can think of. But those are important examples to make. I think, you know, it didn't affect their careers, their happiness, the legacy of the office or parks and recreation. But it's a bummer. Yeah, it's a huge bummer.

I mean, this is the problem, right? is there is, especially in a world where there's 450 television programs, which I think is the number that gets bandied about. Yeah. Okay, so the Handmaids Tale won the best drama. You can't make an argument against that. It's a wonderful show.

It's timely, zeitgeisty, it's impeccably acted, it's beautifully directed, it's wonderfully written. It's, of course, of course that's like should win an award for being the best show. But you could also make that argument for like 11 other shows. And the same is true of Veep and the same is true of Julie Louis Dreyfus, a generational performer, one of the great comedic actors or actresses of all time,

a first ballot television Hall of Famer. But she's won six in a row. And it's like it causes you to have this thing where you're like, yes, it's not, you can't argue she doesn't deserve to get that statue every year. But also she's won six in a row. And I kind of wish other people had gotten some, like for example, Amy Poehler. So that's part of that. The problem is that there's too much TV and there's not enough awards give it out.

I totally agree, but I must say, and I want to talk about your specific experience at the awards last night in a moment, but let's just start since we were going there anyway, talking about the winners. And because these ceremonies are always so arbitrary, I sort of try to look at the good as opposed to the me. And in this case, you know, I'll just say it. I think last night it was the night the Emmys became president. because this is my operating theory. Because I know these things are voted on. They are not sculpted, hopefully, in back rooms by PR consultants, but I thought it was a pretty remarkable night where nothing made me angry,

nothing made me upset, even shows that I don't particularly watch. Like, I don't watch This Is Us, but I think Sterling K. Brown is an incredible actor. I'm thrilled he was recognized. I know people love that show, so it was nice that broadcast networks got some recognition. Donald Glover, Black Mirror, for God's sake. Some Riz Ahmed, some wonderful excitement, you know, on the margins. And Nautil, which was Aziz and Lina winning for writing Master of None on the show that you executive produce. Yes, that was obviously for me the highlight, was Lena.

That's Lena's actual story of coming out to her mom. She and Aziz wrote that episode together. It's called Thanksgiving. And it was from the beginning this, incredibly sort of ambitious and specific episode of television where Aziz was saying, your story is great, you got to write your story. And she was like, great, I can write my story, fantastic. And then they did, and they executed it so well.

And they got Angela Bassett to play her mom. And everything about it is great. And so, yes, there is a tremendous sense of pride and happiness when you see something like that be recognized by a large group of your peers. That was incredibly gratifying and fulfilling for me, so I can only imagine how it feels for Alita, who actually wrote it. And I told Azizis, I thought it was extra double super classy of him to let her give the entire speech, especially since he got cut off last year when he and Alan Yang one.

He didn't, he got his mic got cut off before he could speak. But that's the kind of dude he is. So like all of those things are, yes, and I'm with you with Sterling K. Brown. like again you cannot argue that his acting is award worthy of course it is he's he's he's an he's an unbelievable actor I was happy he got recognized for for the OJ thing he did and that was great and he's great in this is us and and yes he deserves that award I largely agree with you I was so happy for Charlie Brooker I got the chance to work on Black Arrow last year and I you know that San Juan Paro's I

I think a wonderful hour plus of television. So I'm kind of with you. Like I, there wasn't anything that I threw up my hands and said, how dare you, TV Academy. And I feel like that's a way to judge award shows in general. And I thought it was nice to see, and obviously I'm a partisan because I like TV

and I work in TV and I talk about TV. But TV does have a reputation. I mean, it is where things are happening. People want to work in TV. And this was one of the, this was a rare word show where nothing made me You know, the Grammys have many cool performances, and then they give all the trophies to Carlos Santana every year, regardless of where they put out an album. Or Jeff Othoette.

Usually it's Jeff O'Otel, right, from metal. There's often a disconnect between the story the industry wants to tell and the story that the awards tell it the audiences take away from it. And in this case, I thought they were lined up in a very nice and neat way where a lot of exciting people were nominated and a lot of quality was out there. and it was justly celebrated. The biggest complaint I would have would be, you know, it's time for someone else to win some of the awards, but that seems minor in the scheme of things. Yes. No, and that's a complaint.

That's a legitimate complaint. And I remember when, who was it? It was Murphy Brown. Was it the show or was it? Well, Candice Bergen kept winning. Candice Bergen and John Laracette had. Didn't she take herself out of, right, but didn't Candace Bergen take herself out of contention after five years or something?

She may have. I know Larichette did. Yeah, I think, I believe Candice Bergen did too. I couldn't remember whether it was the show or her, but it was like she, she was such a classy person. She was like, well, this is unseemly now.

She had a sort of like 19th century view of politess. Don't we call that pulling a hagel now? Isn't she also say no, thank you, but no thank you. I guess that's right. Yeah, that's the official term for it. But, you know, but also, why should anyone do that?

Like, it's nice to win awards. everybody wants to win awards. I think the only problem that the industry has now is there's too much stuff, right? There's too much stuff. It's impossible to watch it all, much less reward it all. And it leads to that that is an annoyance. The only other annoyance for me personally was Sean Spicer in the house. I hated that so much.

I wanted to get, bring that up. So I agree with you. I'd love to hear your take on it. I thought it was a terrible misconceived. blunder. I don't I did not enjoy it a lot of most of the people that I spoke with did not enjoy it. I don't think you get to do what he did, which is essentially serve as a piece of, as a mouthpiece of like an adjutop organization for a state, like a state run media and, and lie. Just bald face lied everybody. And then also say how dare you to people who accuse him

of lying and attack those people who say, why are you lying? And then, then get fired essentially and then come out and go like, remember what I lied to you guys? That was so funny. It was so funny how I lied to you. And it was all in good fun. It's all entertainment. We're all performers here.

Yeah. It's not, it wasn't, it was not fun. None of this has been fun. It's not a joke. And I really resent the idea that he gets to be normalized by, by anyone,

much less a group of people who, by and large, sort of are leading the resistance against him and everything that he and his administration stood for. So that part of it to me was I guess I sort of get it, right? I was sort of game plan because I love Stephen Colbert more than you can ever imagine. I think Stephen Colbert is like a is a is sort of a, I don't know even how to explain it. I think he's one of the most important performers and one of the greatest comedic performers I've ever seen in my entire life. And I was sort of trying to

work it out in my own head as to like what it was the thinking. I believe the thinking was something like this. It was like this entire administration is a joke and I'm going to prove it. Right? It was something like that.

It was like I'm going to now show you everyone, including you, Mr. President, how much of a stupid joke everything here was. And and I sort of see it from that angle, but I don't agree with it,

and I don't think that it should have happened because I don't think that that's what it did. I think instead of saying it was a joke, I think it was saying like, we're all in big trouble because there's a completely now blurred line between entertainment and actual fact and reality. Yeah, I agree with you,

and I appreciate the generous view of it you're taking. What was surprising about it for me, and I should say, I don't know if I fully agree with it, because what's been, interesting to me over the last year and a half has been seeing Stephen Colbert, whom I also revere, and I think he's a genius as a person and certainly as a performer, seeing him find Stephen Colbert the public persona behind that desk over the last year and a half, because it was,

I think even he would admit, it was not an entirely smooth transition to go from the fictional Colbert on Comedy Central to the host of The Late Show, but I think he's figured it out. And for the most part last night, it was a, I mean, not a victory lap because he hasn't won, I guess only John Oliver wins. That's right. But in a sense, an even bigger stage for a coming out party for who he is as a performer for everyone, not just for this very specific character. Yet that rung so false to me because it reminded me of the sort of big tent thinking

that I think that a lot of these late-night hosts have been wrestling with. Now, in different ways, but this idea that, well, we're behind the desk for all of America. We help put America to sleep. The sort of antiquated Johnny Carson thinking where I'm going to faint this way and then faint this way. But although he has mostly avoided that, I would say, to his great ratings gain over the last year. So that's why, to me, it felt discordant.

Yeah, but like you said, that has not been, he's not interested in that, I don't think. Nor should he be necessarily. I don't, I think that that old sort of carciney way of thinking about what it means to be a broadcaster, it's a noble idea, and I don't think that it's like impossible or anything. but it's also like that that way of thinking also masked, I think a lot of problems that the country had, right?

It's like the people weren't taking sides. And I know that there's a lot of platitudes about uniting us instead of dividing us and stuff. But I in general think it's better for people on television to be expressing their opinions than not expressing their opinions. And Colbert hasn't seemed that interested in sort of playing both sides and both sidesing this, in part because what the this is right now is less both sidesable than it has ever been. And when the president, for example, both sides something like Charlottesville,

then everyone unanimously almost points out what a huge mistake it is to try to do that. So I couldn't find the angle on the idea behind Spicer that was, we've done a bunch of Trump jokes at his expense. Now let's throw his support. some some love because it sure didn't seem like that was the intention of it and even if it had been it would have been it would have been that would have been a miscalculation so I think it was like a ratings a ratings boy a little bit like let's get people talking ploy and a little bit of a like sly you know wink from Colbert of like I I've been telling you what a joke this administration is and

now I'm going to prove it by having one of them just come on the Emmys and make a fool of himself but I just I hate it every second of it Let's cast that same net a little bit wider. I think people who don't know, you are particularly in these political times, I find you an excellent follow on the Twitter box. I am a frequent liker of your work. I know that that's as valuable to you as attending the Emmys multiple times, but you've got some zingers up there on the Twitter.

No, but in all seriousness, you have been very vocal, and as many people have, in the last year. And I'm curious what your take was on the role politics played in the ceremony last night because I was surprised to read headlines this morning saying, you know, though he didn't weigh in, the president dominated the night and, you know, was present. I actually thought it was for the most part rather understated in the same way that you can never actually ignore the giant hammerhead shark in the swimming pool with you, but you don't have to, you know, it's not just about that. Yeah, there's always a problem.

There's an inherent flaw in addressing political matters in a room full of wealthy bubble living Hollywood types wearing tuxedos. And it's an inescapable flaw, and there's no way out. And the flaw is like a lot of people in that room, and not just in that room, a lot of people in the country, have very specific feelings about the president right now, obviously. and there's a large viewing audience who are weighing in. And by the way, a lot of the shows, certainly Handmaid's Tale, certainly Veep, you could make an argument that almost every show, House of Cards, almost every show in every direction, has some element of modern political discourse baked into it.

So to have an opportunity to express one's opinions about the current state of affairs is an absolute constitutionally given American right. and everyone wants to exercise his or her right to do that. But the message gets super garbled when it's coming from a bunch of tuxedo wearing famous, good-looking people, right? So, you know, I remember after the post-9-11, after the Iraq invasion started, I believe, I could have my dates wrong on this. There have been a lot of instances like this.

but I believe it happened right near the Emmys, I think, or maybe the Oscars, I can't remember. It was spring. I think it was near the Oscars. Yeah, maybe it was the Oscars. And there was like, well, here's how we're going to handle this out of a sense of a sense of, like, propriety. We're going to have it be totally casual this year.

Like no red carpet, you know, like we're not, because it's unseemly. And so we're going to still have this absurd ceremony. We're still going to, we're still going to all come to the, like, whatever theater and with sunset and whatever and we're going to all give each other golden trophies but we just won't we won't have a photo taken and it's like okay i mean that's that's one way to do it i guess i but like does that really helping anybody is that really you know helping the country who know it's just like impossible it's the actual exercise of sort of these hollywood things is so silly that anytime they clash with actually important things there's a weird discord there's it's like a a very minor

chord with like three wrong notes being hammered on on a piano for three hours. So given everything, I thought I thought the way you did. I thought it was actually pretty tame and probably in a good way. I don't, you know, I think it was like people expressed their opinions when they when they thought to. They were generally pretty subdued. And then we all went on with our lives. And the actual place to make longer, more cohesive or coherent arguments, as we all know, of course, is Twitter 140 characters at a time. So we'll all return to Twitter. And then that's where the real work will be done is people just sniping at each other on

Twitter. We're doing God's work every day on there. And the Twitter minds. A lot of people got played off in dramatic fashion last night, an aggressive fashion. And Sterling Brown's speech was cut off. And he appeared to be doing the thing where he's going to rally everyone to not let that happened to him, but I think you can only do that if you're like Jack Nicholson. You know, Aziz maybe was going to say, thanks, Lena.

He got played off as well last night. Do you, what's your opinion on that? Because my feeling is, and by the way, kudos to Colbert and CBS because they actually landed the plane on time. I don't remember the last time that happened. But I think that got in their heads. They wanted to be done in it with a three-hour show. And my feeling is you got to let the people speak because that's why we watch the show

is to see the speeches. You got to do it. It's such a terrible system. they, you know, people, they announced the award, the winner, and they start playing music, and the person who won the award stands up. And then that person has to hug a couple people and, uh, and, and, and, and they all gather and they're all like so happy. And then it takes them a good, you know, 20 seconds or so on it, on the median travel time to the stage, right, probably 25 or 30 seconds. And they get up on stage and the music stops and there's a sort

of awkward moment where they're, maybe they're waiting for other, they don't want to start talking until the entire team of people is on. If it's one of the larger, you know, best show or whatever, they don't want to start talking until everybody's on stage. But we're all just standing there watching them and they're all, and the audience at home is just standing there watching them and nobody's talking and there's nothing happening. And then finally, the whole team is on stage

and the person who has been designated, the official speaker steps up to the mic and looks up. And at that moment, the countdown clock is saying, wrap it up. And it's like, there's got to be, I kept thinking this. every time I've been in the situation where I'm watching this happen, I have the same thought, which is there's got to be a better system, right?

And they've tried other things. They've brought the mic out to the person. Remember, there's one awkward year where they did that, and the person just stood up and suddenly was like, I'd like to thank my mom. Or the year they were all on stage, right? Was that the Oscar? Yeah, that was that was awful

because it was like now four losers in the category have to just stand idly by. And it would have been equally bad if they like dropped a curtain on the merdline, an anvil on their heads or something, but they didn't win. It's just silly. And I'm totally with you.

I also have the thought of like, should I ever be in a position where I won an award? I would say go to this. I would just have them flash the name of like a website that I bought or like a blog where I have written out like thank you to all of these important people. And I would try to use the 30 seconds to say something meaningful about whatever the situation is. Because my wife, J.J. Philbin, who's also a writer, she writes for New Girl, she made a very funny observation last night, which is that when people do the litany of thank yous,

there's a very funny, like, subtle thing that happens where they're going, like, they'll say, like, thank you to, you know, my whole team, Craig, Donna, Justin, Alexis, and Phil, thank you to everybody at, you know, PRC, Mike, Janet, Wendy. and then at some point they like they really stress one of them like they'll go like Mike Janet Wendy Carol like and then they'll give this look of like can you believe it Carol yeah like we did it Carol but it's like for the people at home it's like there's just a list of 27 names yeah and for some reason you found one of those 27 people to be like this is the one that really like this is what I really need to stress is that Carol Carol was part of the team

over there at your publicity firm or whatever and it's it's boring for everyone and they're talking as fast as they can. No one, and they also feel like they have to thank as, well, they should. They feel like they have a million people to thank and they have about 18 seconds. And as a result, what you don't get, you know, sometimes you have these memories of some speeches from the past of, you know, whatever, Jack Palin's doing one-arm pushups or, or, you know, they used, the guys from the Carol Burnett show used to do really funny bits every time they were, they won. And what they never are in your memory are thank yous. They're not like 85 people being thanked. And I feel like they need to come up with a way that they can flash names on the screen or some do.

I don't know. They've, I know they've, and it's like they don't know this. They've tried other things. They have like a backstage area one year where you could go and into a camera you could thank everybody you wanted to thank. And they try to, they try to get people to actually give speeches because you're right. That is why we're there at some level. And I, by the way, I thought Sterling K. Brown's speech was the best speech.

I agree. because he had a, he wasn't, he was thanking a lot of people, but he was thanking the people who inspired him and in whose footsteps he was walking. And I personally, because I co-created Brooklyn Nine-Nine, I love that he thanked Andre Brower. Oh, yeah. And Frank Pemilton, that was great.

But his speech was a speech. It was what you think of, when you think of a speech. It wasn't just like a list of 100 people who helped you get to where you are. And to his credit, he wasn't, I don't know, I would say underdog in that category, or he definitely wasn't the favorite, but he clearly had written and rehearsed a speech because he was a good moment to take advantage of. I said this to Emmy winner Lizzie Moss when I spoke to her last week. We don't ask this of any other profession, you know, and again, this is not coal mining. I don't mean to imply that these fancy people in their tuxedoes have any hardship on Emmy night.

But I can't think of, we don't call brain surgeons and say, okay, operate right now. You know what I mean? They call them up and say, and expect them to be lucid and clever and insightful and emotional and moved and surprised and do it in 30 seconds while this big thing is flashing at you and Oprah's staring at your shoes. I would push back on that. I would argue that brain surgeons are exactly the kind of people who get phone calls and say you have to do your job right now. No, but, okay, great point. Clearly, you have been to a hospital while I have not. Let me extend the metaphor.

They know that they, okay, they get calls, certainly if they're ER doctors, but they have, They scrub in, right? They look at the charts. They're aware that the surgery is happening. There aren't five of them sitting in a room saying, and Ken, you're doing the operation right now. Well, I know what you mean. And my only pet peeve really is when someone goes up and says,

I didn't have time. I didn't think I was going to win, so I didn't prepare anything. Because there's two possibilities. Possibly the number one is you're lying, and it's like a humble brag where you're like, what I was so sure I was going to win that I didn't even, huh, huh. And possibility number two is you're telling the truth.

And if you're telling the truth, then why didn't you, you had a 20% chance. Like on average or whatever it is, you know, one out of seven. What is that? 14%. You had a 14% chance of winning if it's like a literally a dart thrown situation. So prepare something. Like just have something to say. I've been nominated for Emmys a couple times.

I have prepared a speech. It feels weird. It feels like braggy. And you feel embarrassed and ashamed that you're doing it. But I still was like, okay, if I get up there, I don't want to say I didn't think I was going to win so I didn't prepare anything and fumble around and say thank you to my wife and thank you to my mom and then be ushered off stage. That would be embarrassing. I wanted to have a plan. Were you going to thank Carol or no?

Carol from PR? Of course. Carol, more than any of them I was going to thank. It's a key part of the team. Last question about the Emmys, because I do want to ask. you at the good place and you've been very generous about this. You did attend last night's ceremony. What was the vibe? What was the highlight for you?

You mentioned Lena and as he's winning. What was the, how about this? What was the social highlight if there was one of the evening for you? Well, there were a couple. I mean, I've now been doing this long enough that I, that like there are people that I know who win these things. And that's great. I feel very lucky.

And I'm also very happy for my friends. my friend Lila Gerstein was one of the writer producers on Handmaid's Tale. And she won an Emmy last night, and that was really exciting. And we saw her as she, they were sitting right behind us, and we saw her, she walked up on stage. And that was awesome. And we tried to find her afterwards at the party. And when you win, you get sort of like, it's wonderful and it's also very dizzying. And you get swamped by people and you have to go different places and talk to different people.

And there's these weird lounges that you go into. And it's like, it's entertainment tonight. Talk about winning the Emmy. And so we couldn't find her afterwards, and that was sad. But seeing her win was great. Seeing Aziz and Lena win was incredibly great. Seeing Sterling K. Brown win, I thought was great. And, you know, there are now, you know, I started on the office in 2004.

And since then, like the people that I've met have gone on to all these other great shows and would do all these cool things. win a award sometimes and that makes you feel good for your friends. That's such a wonderful and warm. It was very warm and fuzzy. I mean, from the fiery heights of your Spicer take to this, the soft pudding that you're giving me. I, you know, there's, I used to write movies with Neil Brennan who co-created the

Chappelle show with Dave Chappelle, very, very funny person. And he's also eminently quotable and pithy. and when I was working in SNL, we would write movies together sometimes, and we were taking a walk one day, and I was complaining about something involving the Emmys. And I remember what it was. It was some, you know, whatever.

You know, Chris Rock Show, one, they only do 13 episodes, and they do once a week, and Conan's the best late night show, because they do, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was just whining and complaining about it. And Neil said, I think about this, probably more than any quote that has ever been said to me, I think about this one. He said, hey man, you're looking for justice

in Hollywood. There's no justice in the actual justice system. And so given the fact that that is, you know, to some extent true, and that especially in the world we now live in, where there are 450 shows, and you can make a very solid argument that any one of about 40 of them deserves there's whatever award is being given out at whatever time. When your friends do win, it's really nice because the odds are so long and the journey is so long and winding. And the experience of winning something is really, makes you really happy. Like regardless of whether the system is opt in or opt out, and regardless of whether

or not you believe that these things should even happen, when your friend wins an award, it makes you feel really good for them. So, yeah, it's, sorry, man, it's warm and fuzzy day here. That's how I, that's how I combat the aftermath of an award ceremony as I go super warm and fuzzy. I love it. And speaking of feeling good, let's segue quickly to the return of the good place. Great segue. Thank you.

I had another one plan, but this is the best I can do. It's Monday. Last time we spoke, like a year and a half ago, we spoke, we talked about the good place, but it was purely in theory because I had not seen it. I was not aware if it's charms or mysteries or twists. Right. We are going to talk about, for people listening, the first season is fully available on Netflix, I believe, right now. I'm going to ask Mike about things that happen at the end of the season.

So if you don't want to know that, just fast forward a little bit and go watch the season, then rejoin us. You go now and come back in 10 hours or whatever it'll take. It'll take 10 hours. Will it? What is it? Like, how many episodes did you make? 13. 13 episodes.

So that's... It's a half hours. Six and a half hours. Well, yeah, but that's with commercials. So if you watch it on Netflix, you can be done in about four and a half hours. You have no excuse. Turn off this podcast. Anyway, so we hadn't actually talked about the specifics.

Now I can say to you, I absolutely love the show. It is so I think it's clever and brilliant and insightful and surprising, but it's also just so funny and such a pleasure to watch, which is, I think, a hallmark of a lot of your work. Now you're going warm and fuzzy. I'm always warm and fuzzy, except when I reach for my triage surgeon analogies and you just puncture them like so many hot air balloons. I wanted to ask you something that we spoke about then on the eve of this. We spoke about this a year and a half ago on the eve of the show's return. I think it seems relevant and it seems more relevant after watching cable once again dominate for the most part the Emmys.

You are making this show. You make shows on NBC and also Brooklyn Nine Nine on Fox. that make me feel great about the future and possibilities of broadcast network shows. They make sense there. Good Place is engaging and inviting and warm in the way all my favorite TV comedies have been, but it is also serialized and made to this moment in a very specific way. You make this work. I think other people seem to struggle.

Why do you still feel bullish, if you do, about networks like NBC and making comedies for them? Well, there's a couple of reasons. Reason number one, I feel that. comedy does very well with obstacles. I was reared at S&L, and that is talking about obstacles. You've got, here's obstacle number one. You have four minutes. Obstacle number two, it's live.

So you can't, you know, unless you're doing a commercial parody or something, you can't do most of the things that you would normally want to do comedically because it's live. It's got to happen live. Obstacle number three, you have a maximum, you know, at the time of like nine people to choose from. It's an obstacle number four is If it goes to the dress rehearsal and bombs You got to rewrite it in about an hour

And if you don't rewrite it in an hour It's gonna bomb again and you and your family will be shamed publicly shamed So I've that is very good training ground for comedy writing And comedy performing I think because it teaches you How to sort of strip away pretense and how to deal with obstacles And I think that obstacles are really good for comedy And I've said this before, but, you know, this idea, the good place is very serialized and it's a little bit dense at times.

It can get a little complex and stuff. And then the sort of natural feeling might have been to say, well, this is a good show for Netflix or Hulu or Amazon or a place where, you know, you have a little more time and you can stretch things out a little bit. but I think that I personally have witnessed some shows, and I won't name names, in the last, you know, let's say five or ten years, that have given up the obstacles that network TV presents you and as a result are a little bit flabby and a little bit kind of boring at times.

And it's one of those, the obvious analogy is the, I think it isn't a goldfish that grow to the size of the bowl they're in? You know, like if you put a goldfish in a giant bowl, it'll get really big and fat. You're just showing off with analogies now after my flame out. I'm red hot. I'm red hot in the analogy game right now. But I think that is a problem for comedy sometimes. Not always.

There are wonderful comedies on streaming services and elsewhere. But I think sometimes I get frustrated, very often I get frustrated editing the show because I'm like, God, if I could just have like 48 more seconds. Right. I think the best, the very, very, very best version. of this story is 22 minutes and 18 seconds, not 21 minutes and 30 seconds. However, on balance, I think it's better to tell a story that's slightly less than optimal, in my opinion, that's shorter instead of slightly less optimal, that's longer. And I think that what happens is given more time, you just take the time. Your brain stops thinking about honing everything

and polishing everything and cutting everything really tight and giving a lot of pace. and momentum and stuff, because you're like, well, I don't have to. So if I don't have to, I won't. Like, I'm going to eat up. I'm going to just take this extra, you know, 50 seconds or three minutes or eight minutes or, you know, 37 minutes and do whatever I want. And I think it's not good for comedy. I think it's better leave them wanting more.

One of the things that I love best about your work is that you do not settle. I mean, Parks and Recreation was a situation comedy on a broadcast network, but change was the operative word, the situation. to the characters, their lives, their circumstances, and yet, you know, it was still, those still are pals up to hijinks every week, which, by the way, I think is also true of Mad Men. I think that, you know, it is a highbrow Emmy winning drama, but it was still on some level, hey, it's our pals in the workplace.

What are they going to get up to this year? I think that's a deep TV DNA that attracts me to both shows. Good Place obviously takes that and puts it to 11. The first season we believed our characters were in, essentially, in analog to heaven. the finale revealed that, oh, no, it's quite the opposite. What were the obstacles, that's a word you used, and the opportunities of moving on from that incredibly effective twist. To continue the story now that you've pulled the rug out from under us

in such an epic fashion and satisfying fashion, what was exciting about going into this second season? Well, it's always exciting to dig yourself a giant hole and then have to figure out creatively how to scramble out of it. Like that's a, that's a Greg Daniels lesson. Greg was,

you know, obviously adapted the office. He was my first boss out here and is still sort of my mentor. And he used to say, when we had Jim and Pam, here's another spoiler alert, if you're 15 years late watching the office,

when we had Jim and Pam kiss at the end of season two of the office, most of the writers, I would say, were vehemently opposed to it. I thought it was going to ruin the show, thought it was betraying the central dynamics, it was going to just absolutely blow everything up.

And I remember very clearly, Greg, saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is what you do, is you make the best finale you can make. You make the most exciting, biggest, like, explosively, everyone has to talk about this kind of finale you can possibly make. And how are you going to dig yourself out of it? We've got all summer.

We'll figure it out. We're smart. Like, we're good writers. We got this far. You do not pull your punch. That was his sort of his biggest lesson about finale's. And so when I was conceiving of the show, and I, you know, before I ever wrote the pilot,

I had the ending. I thought it through, I didn't commit to writing the pilot until I knew how the first season was going to end. And I had the idea that it was actually a big lie. And I thought to myself, I heard Greg's voice basically saying like, well, that's a pretty good ending.

It's a pretty good finale. And so I sort of like, you know, I pitched the whole story, including the twist to Kristen and Ted to get them to sign on. I told the entire writing staff about it on day one that we met. And the good thing about that was that we had all, we didn't just have all summer to figure it out. We had the whole year to figure it out. So we, as we were breaking the first season, we were talking about season two. So there were certainly obstacles to, you know, to pulling that rug out. But there were obstacles we saw coming.

a long way out. And so we started talking from a very early time in breaking the first season about what we could do in the second season that would not be boring. So when it came time to execute the second season and write it, we had a big head start in jumping through those hoops.

The only other really big challenge, I would say, is that I believe we got away with the twist at the end of the first season, in part because no one was looking for it. I don't think the audience expected a half-hour network comedy to have a giant insane twist like that.

And that is, you know, I was frantically searching Twitter. I gave up looking at Twitter about things I work on, in terms of it being like a weekly habit. I gave that up a long time ago. And it made my life a lot better. But on the day that the finale aired,

starting at like 10 in the morning, every, like, hour or so I would type in a hashtag or something and poke around just to make sure that nothing had leaked out, that nobody had guessed it and spread the theory far and wide. Todd Vanderwerf guessed the end of Mad Men. I'm not sure if you know that, but I read an article. I believe it was Todd Vanderwerf. I hope I'm right about that.

But someone wrote a piece. It said the title was something like, you guys, comma, I think I know how Mad Men is going to end. And I read it and I was like, oh, man, he's right. And he was. It was about the Coke ad. Sorry. Spoiler alert if you're six years later.

You're rooting everything. I really am. But I was so happy to see that no one, at least I'm sure some people somewhere guessed it. But most people had not. And I think the reason they hadn't is because no one was looking for it. Now, season two, everyone's looking for it, I think. Or at least we operate the assumption that everyone was going to be looking for a giant twist. And we had to figure out there's no twist that's going to be as disruptive as you think it's

heaven, guess what to tell? So we had to try to maintain the same kind of show with the same kind of momentum, the same kind of exciting cliffhangery kind of ending to every episode without committing ourselves to a storyline that would lead to trying to fake people out again because I don't think you could. Well, I am extremely excited. I have not seen any of it yet, but I'm looking forward to it. It's Wednesday nights premiering, starting this week. Well, technically, it's a weird thing, but technically the premiere is this Wednesday

from 10 to 11, it's the first two episodes. It's after the America's Got Talent finale. Then the following week, it moves to its regular time slot, which is Thursday night at 8.30. It's an odd situation, but we broke the premiere as an hour, and the only place to slot it in was after 80. I'm glad you're back on Thursdays. That's good.

That's a nice place for comedies. Yes. Mike, you've been very generous with your time. Would you potentially consider coming back near the end of the season to talk more in depth about the show we just watched? Yeah, but much. Like a brain surgeon, I need a tremendous amount of lead time. So you have to, if you give me like a three-week cushion before you call me.

I'll give you a window. I promise. And then you can finally get off your chest all those stories about the monster Ted Danson. How much time do you have? What a bad actor he is and how he's just the worst guy in the world. Because I know you got stories. Oh, man. Stories for days, friend.

Thank you, Mike. Congratulations on The Return of the Good Place, on Master of Non winning last night. And just also really understanding analogies better than me. You're quite welcome and thank you for having me. Friends, things change. The weather changes. Your mood definitely changes. So why lock yourself into plans that might change?

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