The Watch - Ep. 106: The Year in TV With ‘Mr. Robot’ Creator Sam Esmail

Episode Date: December 16, 2016

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald sit down with the creator of 'Mr. Robot' to discuss, debate, and rank the best television shows of the year. Hear where shows like 'Atlanta' (2:30), 'The Night Of' (12:20)'Game of Thrones' (21:00) and 'Black Mirror' (37:22) rank or if they make the cut at all. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by TalkSpace, the online therapy company. Talkspace makes it easy to connect with a licensed therapist handpicked just for you for as little as $32 a week. Using Talkspace, you can text, audio, and video message your therapist, and talk about your life, what's keeping you up at night, or even just your annoying co-worker. To sign up or to learn more, go to talkspace.com slash watch, and to show your support for the watch, use code watch to get $30 off your first month. Talkspace, therapy for how we live today. Today's episode is brought to you by the Capital One Credit Wise app. Capital One created the Credit Wise app so that you can check your credit score anytime you want right in the app. It's free to everyone, so download Credit Wise today.

Availability depends on presence of credit history from TransUnion. CreditWise is offered by Capital One Bank, USA. I need sports to have to clear the run. Now! Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com. and joining me in an office in an undisclosed location in Los Angeles

is Andy Greenwald and Sam Esmail. What's up? Sam, welcome back. What's up? Thanks, guys. Honorary co-host. Welcome to my world now. Yeah.

Do not ever. We had to hood these two guys before they came here. That's weird that there's a dude throwing up painkillers in the corner. Exactly. You're going to have to pick those up, Andy. You know how much I love that scene. Andy, this is a special episode. We're talking about the year in television with one of the makers of television this year, Sam.

Sam obviously is the creator of Mr. Robai. He wrote and directed all of the second season. Which is shockingly, I mean, I don't know. I was being really unbiased. But it actually ended up being the number one show on my list. Cool. So it was a good pod. Good job.

That's uncanny. Yeah, it's really strange. But like when you ran the numbers, I know you. I looked it over. Actually. There's no way you were probably very clinical about this. Yeah, no. Obviously.

It was, it surprised me. At the end of the day, you're like, what's the best directed show created by the most handsome guy? Well, handsome is one of the criteria. That's why Bennyoff wins. That's right. Damn it, Benny Off. We are going through our best shows of the year with Sam today. We're going to talk in this first segment a little bit about some of the shows that we all agreed on.

Andy, me and Sam all made 10 best lists. We'll post those to various social media platforms that Andy is no longer checking. And we wanted to start with some of the shows that we sort of agreed on, right? This is going to surprise no one. Yeah. And I think if you've listened to the show at all, if you, anyway, if you listen to when Sam came on before, you'll know that Andy and I both agree that the best show of 2016 was Atlanta. Sam, I know that you really highly rate Atlanta. Would you say it was your favorite show?

It was not my number one show. It actually wasn't even, let me just chuck, the whole chuck really quick. I don't even think it was my number two. It was not, was Mr. Roe. It was Mr. Roe by your number four. Number two show also. Oh, oh, yeah. Actually, now we're sinking everything down.

It's actually, but no, I love it. I think it's great. But again, if we go over the criteria, because I did take this incredibly seriously. You really did. I don't know that we ever had a, like a solid conversation about what the criteria is, and this is what's cool about it, right?

This is like, as television becomes more and more just, like, fractured, like, you know, the John Keats' Earn tossed on the ground. Isn't that what modernism is about? Wow. So it's like, as you do that, though, like your definition of what- Did the reference just get dropped?

Yeah, I did. I did almost finish college. As these things get, there's more and more television to watch. I think people's definitions of what, like, prestige, like what the best television is starts to become more and more diverse. And we have a lot of different criteria that we use, because when we do our completely subjective the belt, like who's holding it at any given point, one of the things that we rank is just how much something is resonating, both of the larger culture.

So here's the bigger question about Atlanta for you. Right. As a creator of television and as a director in general, what excited you about this show when you started watching? I mean, that it's unlike anything you see. That's the thing about any of these shows that are on my list or movies that I love, is that when I'm watching it, I have no idea what's going to happen next. And that excites me.

And I get excited about it. And I want to know what happens next. and Atlanta, it was from scene to scene and from episode to episode, and it did whatever it wanted. There's a lot of the things that you guys talked about when you were reviewing the show is like every episode was just almost like you were going to a different planet. At the same time, though, it kept some cohesion in tone and a real voice. And the other thing is, it was really artfully done. I mean, if we're going to go through the criteria, that's one of the big things for me is, is it done in an elegant way, even as it's kind of being a, abrasive or subversive or whatever. And Atlanta just had a great mix of all those things.

I think the other thing that's so exciting about it is that as we've entered this, it's not a post-golden age, but it's definitely a new age on television. A lot of the people who've come to the medium who want to break it or remake it, one of the ways that they do that is, you know, TV is going to be the new novel or TV is the new cinema. Atlanta was not, they were not trying to make a movie, right? It's a very different way of thinking about the possibilities of the format. Right. And honestly, you know, it's good that you bring that up because here's the deal. When you feel like

a TV took that memo we're good. This is a novel. And every episode is a chat. You can feel that. You can feel that they're kind of forcing that down your throat. And that's what that that's the thing where I'm like, well, this is predictable now. I know exactly what you're doing. I know

I know exactly how you're shooting this because you are trying to get that, you know, award or whatever for the cinematography. I know the performances. Like, Everything just starts to fall in line, and then that's when the excitement goes away for me. For me, it's Atlanta just, it almost felt like they just didn't care about anything but to tell, to tell the story that's like deep in their hearts and that doesn't actually follow, not that it doesn't follow any formula, but it actually actively tries to subvert formula.

It's actually going out of its way to be, you know, experimental and unique. I was going back, for some reason, I found myself, there's this new app called Filmstruck that you can, you know, it's like kind of. Is this the criterion? Yeah, and it's like the very like, like cinema scholar version of Netflix, basically, where it has like a lot of like great foreign films. It's like the whole criterion collections on the. Anyways, long story short, for reasons relating to the ringer, I was rewatching a bunch of Jarmish movies and I was rewatching down by law. And I was like, that's a great movie. This is Atlanta.

Like this is the way it feels and the way that like that that show makes me. feel like the way I did when I saw mystery training down by law and do the right thing and slacker. And some of those indie movies that I grew up on where I was just like, I feel like I'm, it's not through world building that I'm getting to know this world. It's just through like a sense of place. And it's just through like a sense of familiarity with the characters. And you know, we talk about this all the time about the blurring lines between. But I do think that here or Marai brought a really incredible sensibility to that. And I know what you're saying when you're like, oh, you guys are, that's like, this is the shot you're going for.

that kind of looks like the cinematographer Tumblr picture or whatever. Exactly. But the way that the cinematography blended with the like the laconic way that that show unfolded, really, really, really, like, resonated. I think the cinematic reference is really good because one of the cul-de-sacs we found ourselves in and talking about television is sort of the post-lost hangover, which is, where are they going? Where are we going?

Like, they have to know, and people start to get nervous. They don't trust the creator. I mean, we can segue pretty easily with it. does he know where he's going? Do we trust where he's leading us? And the feeling I got from those Jim Jarmish movies and other indie films that I remember watching, Hal Hartley movies and stuff.

And Atlanta is this feeling of sort of exquisite disorientation. It's a feeling of I don't know where they're going, but they seem to know, and it's a pretty cool hang, so let's go along for the ride. Being unsettled by something that you watch is actually something to chase. It's just a very, very delicate balance.

And it's, you know, at the end of the day, another one of my criteria is, It's just creative. And obviously that word gets thrown around a lot. But I mean, I really mean, there's how many shows can you think of that actually try and create something new? Even if it's inspired by other movies or books or whatever, music, like that they're actually trying to be creative in every choice that they make, that nothing's taken for

granted, not the production design, not the costume design, not the performances, not the way the people, the way the plot will unfold, that there is something that at every, at every moment, they're trying to say, well, wait a man, what if we do take that left turn? And that's what Atlanta is, is just a bunch of beautiful, awesome, amazing, exciting left turn. And it had that, it has that feeling for me. One of the things that I'm going to have, like, treasure. And, you know, we were talking right before we started about this idea of, like, are any of these shows rewatchable? And in an age when we're inundated with so many choices to what to see, like, would you go back? And I would go back and watch Atlanta. In fact, I'd love to go back and watch it in, like,

this big block, like in two, you know, in like a three and two hour block. Because it really does remind me of when I was watching this show of the feeling I had pre-social media of like discovering something like Pulp Fiction or discovering something where you're like, oh, I can, I'm learning about these influences in this really like interesting way rather than directly having it being communicated and downloaded into my brain. And just the fact that you know, the Twin Peaks meets hip-hop tagline was very seductive, obviously, for us. And people like rap music and Twin Peaks. But just the fact that there were things like David Lynch and trap hip hop, like being thrown around and the same thing was just super

exciting. And can I just throw one more thing about Atlanta? Because the one, like, the thing I hate least probably about making a TV show or you want, and then obviously watching TV, the plot. Because I will say this. You mean the thing you like the least. Care about the least. The plot.

You like the least. Yeah, plot. It's, and because ultimately we've seen plots are like just a machination. that's the Trojan horse to learn about a character of voice a world. And Atlanta, I mean, they have a semblance of he's trying to, I guess, get a music career for Paperboy.

But I could care less about that. That wasn't what the point of it was. They weren't always trying to reorient ourselves to, we got to follow this story. And we got to, like, it wasn't hamstrung by that. It just became what it was. And it was like a hang piece. And that's some of my favorite movies, you know,

and just bringing up all the references, I don't remember necessarily the story of Down Bylaw, but I remember those characters and remember that world. Do you get frustrated then as a creator when viewers get hung up so much on plot? Fuck plot. I'm telling your viewers right now. Fuck plot.

I'm telling you plot doesn't matter. You get hung up on it. And that's one of the reasons, look, the frustration is a lost. On the one hand, I see, because you also, look, the thing is you want to trust a creator, writer, director, whatever. that you're in good hands, that they're going to take you to a place and that there's intentionality

behind everything they're showing you and they're not just fucking with you. So on the one hand, like, you need plot there to like kind of be the foundation. But that's like looking at a house and like liking the bones and the, you know, that's not the point. The point is like, you know, what are you going to do with that? That's just the one layer. And it's to get hung up on that to me is a real mistake because that's when you have run of the mill shit. That's when you have that, I hate to say, those TV shows that it's just like, you know what you're going to get. That's when the predictability comes in. And because it's all just a, you know, it's like, I know one of the shows that you guys always talked about this year.

And then frustrations with you, Andy, about Westworld in terms of like, is it just about the plot imaginations? Is it just about solving the puzzle? And is it not about anything else? I mean, that, that, and Westworld kind of like, it kind of exposed that to a certain. an extent that you know for me it's like always a danger to really fixate on that well another show like that that i kind of that that definitely i think had a very compelling plot one that i think kept people's attention throughout its it's it's it's it's it's it's run was night of yeah i was gonna say because that actually has sort of a conventional log line but i but the same way that

sam's talking about Atlanta like i cared about the mystery at the heart of the night of and it was an interesting way of telling that story where you have an unreliable protection protagonist narrator. Nas can't remember necessarily what happened that night. Sam hates stuff like that, by the way. There are points where he's starting to doubt his own innocence, but it was probably the seventh most interesting thing about that show. Exactly. What number, that's on your list that what? That's number two and it was pretty tight. I think I even said the other day. Wow, number two. Yeah, and I think I said the other day that it was my favorite thing and then I just thought long and hard about Atlanta and I was like, night of is my number six. Yeah.

It's my number nine. Okay. You talk us into it. I love the night of. I, the pilot, I guess, is that the first episode? One of the best first episodes, you know. And shot in 2012, which is great. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, every performance down to like the, you know, the cameos to Riz Ahmed, everything. To the night sergeant. Who's the dude who's behind the desk? Shake me. The pharmacist. I mean, it's just brilliant performances. The cinematography was amazing.

It was definitely, definitely you could tell that it was in the hands of a really true filmmaker. And it was one of those shows. So like another criteria, I had to watch it every week, definitely. And this was in the middle of like editing Mr. Robot and like, but that was the one show was not going to miss on Sunday nights. But it did, it did meander a little. bit in the middle for me. And, and I usually love meandering. I fucking, like, again, Atlanta is one big meander to me. But so it meandered in a way that I, as much as, and it was weird because I loved,

again, all the performances and I loved, I loved the way it looked, but I wasn't having as good a time as I wanted to be. And then it picked up for me back at the end, save for, you know, the, the, the, the, the kiss, which I wasn't, I wasn't a huge fan of. I don't know if it, like, you know, you. You know, one thing that I will say, I do argue, like some people say, well, that ruined the whole show for me. I mean, that seems to be a little ridiculous to pick one moment out of an otherwise, like, really great show and say, well, then everything is like, you know, everything gets announced. But yeah, it was really that middle part that I just, I found myself losing a little bit of interest. Do you want it to say why it is a sort of middle of the pack for you and then I'll make my defense? Sure.

I mean, I think that I mostly agree with Sam. I just thought it was absolutely captivating. It was beautiful, and I love the atmosphere. I mean, I don't want to say a show about people getting Shivdin Rikers is a world I want to spend extra time in, but it was a world that was so lovingly created and so specifically created with every choice that was made. Atmospheric is a good way of saying it.

The tone of it is so specific and unique. So specific and unique and so New York. And the fact that the show had the, the creators had the curiosity to think about Naz's dad's co-owners of the Cab Medallion were. so that they were characters in the show as well, and the hardship placed on them as not even tertiary characters. It was a larger world. I think the thing that I kept coming back to and thinking about it,

and by the way, I think I really appreciated the endings. I thought it was really masterful how they made it ending in which what actually happened didn't matter, which is the hardest thing to do with these who done it. Because by the way, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. Nobody actually cares.

It's about why or how or what happened next. But in a show like this, and Chris is what we talked about when we were reviewing it. It's not unlike a lot of the British crime shows that we love, at a certain point, they turn into not law and order, but at a certain point, the atmosphere setting has been established, the questions have been asked, and then you have to take the turn into answers,

and answers are never as interesting as questions. So that started to happen for me in the middle when plot took the back of the driver's seat. Right. Yeah, I mean, so for me, I actually probably have spent more time thinking about night of if I have any other television show this year, with the exception of Game of Thrones, I guess,

out of professional obligation. I know what you're talking about. But just in terms of, so I've rewatched some of those episodes. And one thing I think is actually really not talked about enough when it comes to this show is the people that comes from Richard Price and Steve's alien. So if you read Clockers, Richard Price's novel, there's, in a lot of his books,

but Clockers specifically, there's this whole weird middle part of Clocker. I mean, like a huge part of Clockers is the main detective, providing like write-along for a movie star who's thinking about playing a detective and he's like the detective's like maybe I'll become like a consultant in Hollywood and get out of this racket. But there's a real like meta quality to like the actor asking the detective like would you do this and what is it really like to do this? And this all this conversation and Price Road on the Wire, which was always sort of referencing the way we process crime stories and police work in popular culture.

And if you go back and look at the night of for as much as it's just like a straight story, an incredible character study and and everything like that. There's a lot of really interesting commentary on like the state of the crime procedural in popular culture now. And even that moment, you know, the kiss, which I think can be read both as kind of a critique of what happens to characters like that in those shows, but also if you go back and look at some of the character beats

of that character beforehand, of Chandra beforehand, she's like reaching out for someone. She's like a very lonely character who is reaching out a lot. And that it kind of really makes sense. Earlier in the episode, she sort of almost lunges for Nas's mom for a hug. And the mom's just like, get away from me.

This is like the worst time of my life. Like I don't want to. Also, you don't really know me. Because that's where she says is my son a monster. Yeah. And she's like, no, no,

let's hug it out. And she's like, get off of me. And then later in the episode, she kisses Nas. So it's obviously like she's looking for something in there. I don't know. It made me think about the genre in a way that I found very, very, very, very,

stimulating and also then it's just like sometimes competency is like underrated and like every single part of that show from the writing to the the cinematography of frederick elms shot some and i think um who's the guy who shot there will be blood is it elzwitt it's elzwit shot the pilot yeah he also i heard shot some of the inserts even the inserts wow were just beautifully just like the rain on windows i mean like it i suggest i i don't stick with me for a long time and In terms of going back to it, I think that's the show that I'll go back to the most this year. One question specifically. See, I would rewatch it, but I would probably skip a few episodes of the middle.

But I do love the ending in the opening. When we, Chris and I were talking about Rizama's performance for a podcast that's going to run after this one for our end of the year podcast. And we were just talking about the, what an impressive out-of-nower performance that was and how much of the show really hinged on it, specifically on a character changing so dramatically and being, as Chris said, unreliable and also just, you know, physically morphed throughout it. I was curious, Sam, since you have, I wouldn't compare them one to one, but you have a lead performer who, you know, a lot of your show rests on his ability to do some pretty out there things and sell us on them. Do you have any insight in what it's like directing a performance like that or coaxing it out or casting it right or. It's casting it right. I mean, look, I can't

pretend to sit here and take credit for anything Rami does. And I think, I think honestly, it's getting out of their way. I mean, you have, you're asking for them to do so much. Who knows how much Riz got told. Like, he probably asked the question, did I do this? Yeah, I don't know if he read all the scripts beforehand or not. And I always try and like give Rami all the, as much as many answers. Sometimes he tells me, don't give me all of it because that's his process and he wants to, because at the end of the day, you can't play two things. You've got to play one thing. So in the night of, presumably Riz was playing innocent. And even as he was doing some shady shit, he couldn't play guilty.

He had to stay true to the innocent. And that's where the complexity comes. And that's where the layers come in. And obviously he just did a brilliant job at doing that. And keeping us on our toes. If you're going to ask me how the fuck they do that, I have no clue. I just stand back and get mesmerized by it. So let's talk a little bit about Game of Thrones,

which is obviously the kind of elephant in the room when it comes to shows this year. And in our room. And in our room, yeah. Okay, I got to level with you guys. Game of Thrones is not on my top 10 list, and here's why. As an expelled friend. As a former, recently former television critic, these lists are demanding and exhausting, and I was still thinking about it with that frame of mind.

And what I just decided, for my own sanity, because I wanted to put so many shows on this list, and I wanted to showcase shows that I hadn't showcased before on this list, I've decided completely arbitrarily, because let's face it, lists are arbitrary, that HBO's Sunday night programming block of Game of Thrones, VEP, and Silicon Valley, which is probably the best programming block any network has at any time at the current moment in our television history, is just ineligible. It's John Larraket at the Emmys. If he was eligible for Night Court, he would win, well, she should Laracette it.

It would win every year. And I wanted those three slots. There's no legitimate argument that you could make that those three shows. It's weak. It's weak. There's no legitimate argument. But I wanted to put other things on the list. So that's the only reason why. Let's just say in a world in which you, that was not.

I'm curious how high it would go. I would put Game of Thrones at four, five or six on my list. Okay. So Sam and I both have it at third. I would say five. Yeah. And I would say that this is probably among my favorite seasons, this one that just happened. Definitely.

I thought it was. Agreed. probably the most moving in a lot of ways. In terms of production value and certain cinematic qualities, I think it was about as good as a movie. I mean, everything was on point. You know, the one thing I will say, because this is the thing about Game of Thrones that's amazing to me.

The after show. That's the second. That's number two. If we're going to do the top 10 list about amazing things of Game of Thrones, your podcast is up. Is it in the top two? But the one thing, the one thing is, I mean, and this is, by the way, the problem with judging seasons, you know, a standalone. Because it's not, especially with the show like Game of Thrones, it's not, it's one story that they're telling over these several different chapters or however you want to describe them.

So for example, I think season, was it, was this season six? Yeah. So five got a lot of shit. Yeah. Right? Too slow. What the hell's going on? Blah, blah, blah.

But I remember really liking it and then it all pays off in this season. You couldn't have gotten away with when Cersi takes back and like takes down the sparrows and and the Battle of the Bastards. That emotional impact wouldn't have worked without season five. Yeah. You needed that season of buildup to get to this season. So I mean, in a weird way, it's like Game of Thrones just kind of proves that. season fives of shows, the seasons where maybe it's not as as exciting or thrilling, it's a little

slower. It's a little like, you know, let's downshift. Let's like actually make shit terrible for all our main characters so that when they come back, it's all, it's that much more worth it. That's what I think is kind of remarkable. In a lot of ways, season six made me appreciate season five a lot more. Absolutely. I mean, as I haven't mentioned this on the podcast in a while, no review. But as a non-book reader, I, I was kind of surprised by how overwhelmed I was by some of the emotional moments in the season because you realize you've spent five or six years of your life with these characters. And you have watched John Snow go from this sort of peon in the family to the once and future

king character that he becomes and this almost supernatural character. And to see some of the things that they did with the touch that they did, because one of the things that I think people were sort of dinging them for in season five, too, was maybe not having the best sensibility when it came to certain moments, you know, in terms of treating certain things like in a way, like, like,

like, Sansa. I know what things you're talking about. Yeah. This season, I just was like, wow, like this,

the Tower of Joy and John reuniting with Sansa and like the, and, and, and, and, and all these, like, set pieces that they did.

It's like, I don't really know, like, how you can be better than battle of the bastards. I mean, it's, and the other thing is, the weird thing about Game of Thrones is,

They don't have to do, they don't have to experiment with filmmaking. They don't have to come up with that crazy musical score in the season finale when, when they built that building. Yeah. You don't have, they, they've got me already. And then they do that on top of it. Then they have crazy filmmaking. I can't ever pronounce his name, Miguel.

Spachnik. Yeah, yes. Who I think did Battle of the Bastards. Yes. Yeah. And the finale. You can't, you, I, and that one great long take in the middle of Battle of the Bastards. Yeah.

I mean, that shit's better than anything I watch in the movie theater. This is the thing. My top ten movies, there's some really good movies on there. But there's nothing in those movies where I was like, in terms of like any of the action set pieces or any of the, any of the sort of monumental harmony of all that, like, there's some stuff in a rival that rivals it. There's some stuff here and there. But like, they were the best movie of the year. Yes. Let me say as an attempt to make peace with my.

terrible weak decision making. This was really, we're trying to shame you. I feel very shamed. You've been ringing the bell at me nonstop and it's fair enough. I agree. This was an oversight on my part. But in addition to everything you're saying, all the praise you're laying on the show, I would say that this was the most human season. And I really appreciated that. And I, you know, an assumption that Chris and I have made as non-book readers and that, you know, Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin have sort of supported us in saying this, is that there was a feeling of the yoke being lifted, that they were finally off the rails and they were making their own show towards their own ending. Yeah, it's a little funnier, too. Because of that, there was a little more looseness.

Like, we got some happy endings. We got some happy moments. We got hero moments. We got a lot of humor. You know, I always think that for as much attention as something like Battle of the Bastards get, you don't earn that unless you have dinklage getting drunk and making jokes. Right. You need both. One has to balance the other. If it's all one thing, then the show is one note and ultimately not satisfying. And so, To let those actors and let those characters breathe was a relief and not just because the fact that we were unable to breathe during the broadcast of this season. Do you feel like when Game of Thrones ends? I was telling Zach when we were driving out here today about how when we first started doing this podcast,

there were four or five central television texts that it felt like everybody was sort of an agreement. The consensus shows. what we're talking about. We're talking about Madman, we're talking about bringing a bad. We're talking about Game of Thrones. Like, we had this monoculture almost within prestige television. And obviously, like, some of their shows only had like a million and a half, two, three million

viewers. But, like, the Velvet Underground, every one of them became a television critic or a television writer, it seems like, or a podcast or whatever. Or all three. Or all three. But when Game of Thrones ends, do you see, do you see, from your perspective, Sam, like, a show that is it going to be

a time when there's going to be a show that replaces it, or is there going to be just like everybody is sort of spread out across this huge landscape? That's a good question because the one thing that's great about Game of Thrones is like it's a, it feels like it has a heft of like a blockbuster movie. It's an expensive movie. It's a fantasy and it's R-rated. That's just something we didn't have growing up. Like, or did we?

We only, we can't, maybe. More like action stuff. More action. Not like, you know, not like a. R-rated Lord of the Rings. That's also just really well written and great characters. And so I don't, there's only a couple places that's going to make that. Is that show on the air right now? Right. I don't, I don't know. It doesn't feel that way. I wouldn't, I don't, do you guys, I guess Westworld is probably the closest thing. Right. But I think a lot of that is

the desire to have that. And even if it's, whether it's lacking or not, you know, that's up to people who are engaged in it. But I think people want that experience and that's how power the show because they want to be solving puzzles together. They want to be having the offline experience. You're talking about Westworld? Westworld. I think that... But that doesn't feel like a...

Does that feel like what I'm talking about? Like this grandiose clockbuster? I think people want it to take the place of it. Is it a saga? I don't know if Westworld's a saga. The only things that I would argue felt slightly similar, obviously on a much smaller scale this year. And it gives a chance to talk about them just in brief because they're both on my list. I don't think they're both on either of your list.

But I think Stranger Things... That's on my list, yeah. captured people's imagination and it got people excited. You know, it's on my list not because it was the most masterful or the most well-made or because I love the monster, but it was fun. You know, it was very entertaining. And I love it when people are all entertained together. I think that the ding against it in terms of becoming a consensus show is Netflix

because people didn't watch it at the same time. So it sort of was robbed of that moment. If that was- We're talking about it all summer. Absolutely. But it wasn't week to week to week. It felt like E.T had come out over the summer. It felt like it reminded me a little bit of that.

Absolutely. But what if everyone had watched it like, but that's a movie comparison, which is important to me. Right, right, right. It wasn't the week to week. So by the time we got to episode eight, you know, and we were all excited to go into the upside down together. Right, right. The other one that I think took its place in terms of conversation was American Crime Story, People v. O.J. Simpson, which is in some ways also a grandiose fantasy saga about people with big egos and big accents clashing on the biggest stage possible. But really, to me, I was just so impressed.

I was impressed with the performances. I was impressed with the spectacle. I was impressed I liked a Ryan Murphy show, which I've never done before. Have you ever seen popular? No, I never saw popular. That's actually good.

That's a good one? I would visit that. That's the high school one? That's his first one, I think, too. And it was pretty short-lived, right? At first album, people's first albums are always the best.

But I thought that that was such a smart move by FX because it's basically like everyone knows, this is known IP to say something super annoying. But it riveted people in the same way. riveted people the first time. It was, it was like a, it was TV as circus. And instead of pulling something from our collective imagination like a dragon, it was pulling something from our collective, you know, oversaturated media, well, memory. I mean, it was 20 years old. So I was impressed with the way a lot of people, it felt like people were watching that week to week. But I mean, did you see the,

you saw the documentary, right? This is, do you want to do you want to do a detour? Go for it. This is your number one show of 2016. It wasn't my number one because I was told initially that I wasn't allowed to bring in unscripted. And by the way, I think that's a good rule. And I know I cheated to. You cheated. The thing is, it is, it is kind of, this is already weirdly, it's weird to compare shows like Atlanta and game at the thing.

I mean, you know, it's just, they couldn't be, I mean, they're like planets apart. But to then throw in unscripted, it's, that's even weirder because now you're like, okay, there's no judgment on performance or necessarily cinematography to a certain extent. and obviously scripts or anything like that. So having said all of that, the thing that I obsessively binge, because I watched it way after it aired, I guess, and just was super consumed

and thought about it the entire day and then watch more at night. Not to put you on the spot here. We were told by a source who has knowledge of the situation that you may have been watching this on an iPad late, late at night when you should have been sleeping. Yeah.

Yes, that's what I was doing. I couldn't stop. And it was that weird, uncanny thing of, you know, well, obviously I lived, I was, you know, 16 when the whole OJ thing went down. So I had bits and pieces of what, of what I remember from the news. But this was just a classic. It was like, it was literally like, Susan Kane. It was the rise and fall of this great American hero. Ezra Edelman's OJ documentary made in America, right?

Yeah. Yes, yes. The ESPN made it. The only thing comparable thing, the only thing I can think of is the Kembert and Civil War. I mean, in terms of scope.

Yeah. In terms of saying something about America. Yeah. In terms of being able to see something both in the granular level of like the legal proceedings and, you know,

like everything from the, the, just the news, you feel like your fingers are stained with Los Angeles Times newsprint to understanding 20th century race relations.

It was just astonishing. And this, and this is the thing. about it that, especially because it is a documentary, it just goes back to like, it's just a great story. And the way they told that story was, it wasn't

just the things that we obsessively watch about on the news. It wasn't just about the trial. It was his life. And they told it, they just told it like this story, like just the story of a man. And the storytelling in it is just

before and after the trial. That was just the sensational part. It was just a complete picture. And the one thing, like, you know, and not to bash the night of because I actually really love it, obviously is in my top 10, but that's maybe like, that's a really difficult thing to do in scripted, especially because that middle part, that's the thing that's drained for me is that I was losing that, uh, urge to want to keep watching, whereas with OJ with 90 minute episodes, you know, I love how critics like to complain about running times. But here we go, 90 minute.

episodes and I could not feature length episodes and I could not stop watching and it shows you that it's not about running time and it's not about it's not about all the window dressing it's about storytelling it's about are you compelled to watch the next thing and they just did that in aces I mean they executed that pretty flawlessly in my opinion if there's a phrase that we've used more than any other this year aside from valerian problematic uh it's been pre-existing IP. And in a lot of ways, recent history is the preexisting IP of prestige dramas now. Because I'm just thinking, yeah, I just saw Patriots Day. How was that? I thought Patriots Day was good, very good. I'd also seen Deepwater Horizon in 13 hours this year. And with the two OJs. I mean, there's been a lot of, is Deepwater Horizon also? Peter Berg. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And that was supposed to be J.C. Chandor,

but then he was replaced by Berg. And, um, I think that Patriot Day is better as a film than Deepwater. It'll be very interesting to see how Patriot's Day is received. But it was incredible to watch it just because that's not very long ago. And I remember just processing all of that from afar over social media when it happened. But the idea that you can take something that you'll already have like a baseline of an audience for because it's an event that people still remember is very seductive. Just like the way you can just make a Captain America movie and people,

there will be a baseline of people who are interesting because it's Captain America. What you do after that is what makes the difference between Christopher Nolan and Zach Snyder. What you do after that is what makes the difference between 13 hours has some pretty exciting sequences, but the difference between 13 hours and Ezra Edelman. You know what I mean? And I'll be very, I'll be curious to see whether there's a wave of these kind of people trying to capture the OJ wave of doing true crime or recent history and how badly they fuck it up. CBS is doing John Bonae. I mean, if there's one,

one thing TV is still good at, the one thing that hasn't changed about TV is immediate replication of something that's popular. Which by the way, that to me is exactly the opposite of the phenomenon they're trying to replicate. Because a part of the appeal was that nothing was like that. Yeah. So by the thinking to, oh, let me just, you know, let me just glom onto that success by replicating it defeats the entire purpose. And let me not understand what was interesting about it.

Right. But just take the broadest strokes of the log line and try to do it again. So there's preexisting IP and then there as soon as exist IP, which is what Black Mirror Traffics in. You like that? That was a pretty good one. Thanks. I didn't have Black Mirror on my top 10 just because.

Which is crazy. And it's not on your list either? No, like San Junipero, the episode would be on a top 10 of episodes. And I think Shut Up and Dance would be. Shut Up and Dance is actually my favorite. Really? With PlayTest, close number two. So you're like, keep Black Mirror and Darry.

Perro. Yeah. What's that? Your keep Black Mirror dark. Yes, definitely. But, you know, let me just say this about Black Mirror. I'm a little shocked here because, again, I hear. He takes this so seriously.

Look, I listen to you guys. I listen every week. And all the attributes, all the, all the sort of compliments you give Atlanta in terms of it being surprising and different and you don't know what to get week to week, Black Mirror crushes that. Yeah. Crushes that. And it's actually, let me just look here because it's pretty high up on my list.

It's actually number two on my list. And it's because it's just so brilliantly inventive. It's brilliantly executed. It explores psychology and human nature and our relationship with technology and just in the freshest of ways. The voice is unparalleled. Does that mean you have to love every episode

to love the show? I mean, I don't think there was, there was a, you know, probably my least favorite episode was, what was the Army one called? The one about the soldiers. Oh, a million something. What was it? I can't remember what the episode was called. And that wasn't that bad. Neither was remember it because it wasn't that bad.

Right. Well, it wasn't that bad. Nosedive was the worst one. You thought that was the worst one? Yeah. But listen, you're making a very strong point, but you're also making our, making my rebuttal, which is you were saying that, you know, this is. such a unique show with such a unique point of view, you don't have to like every episode to love the show or love the concept.

And I completely agree. But to me, it's like a razor versus razor blades thing, which is like you can't judge the show like any other show because the nature of it is so unique, so sweet, generous, and so brilliant that sometimes the razor blades aren't that great,

but the razor is amazing. And all the other shows, the ones that I crammed onto the list, pretty much with that exception, are ones that I liked all the way through with a certain consistent narrative build. I just, these are the little curly cues and tricks.

and cheats that we make, that when I was a critic, I would use to try to pack these lists. But are you telling me, because this is what I ask you, is that every episode of Game, even Game of Thrones, a show I love. Do I love every episode this season?

I don't know if I'd say I'd love every episode. I don't know if I'd dislike any episode. But there were those episodes where I'm like, okay. They're connective to show episode. Yeah, I'm getting to the next episode. But the degree of difficulty. Can't you look at it that way with Blackmail? The degree of difficulty in black hair is higher than any other show.

That's what I'm saying. To give them that. like that actually every episode they have to reintroduce characters new setting new uh concept um and they're still kind of pulling it off and they're still like every up i mean again unless you just think nosedive is terrible which are you is that what you're saying it wasn't it's not a it's not a pleasant watch but even within that the ending everything is fucking great the endings the first joe right has to see dunkirk is coming out and now he's got you ethering nose dive look what i'm saying is everything even if i didn't like aspect of the end up

of that episode, the vision. I am giving you negative points right now. I can see. I'm giving you the merits right now. The tech, the world, the world building, the imagination. All for one hour is astonishing. I completely agree. So is this, would it be in my top 12, top 15?

Yes. This is, I'm about to walk off this show. It's how seriously you take lists. I take lists very seriously. We're going to get to some of the other shows on our list, but let's just take a quick break for our show. back when you guys get back. Hey guys, just want to tell you a little bit about proper cloth.

Finding a dress shirt that fits is hard. Collars are too tight, sleeves are too long, something is always not right. Well, ordering a custom fit shirt, that's never been easier, thanks to proper cloth. At propercloth.com, you can easily create a custom shirt in seconds just by answering 10 easy questions. There's no measuring required.

There are over 500 fabric styles and everything from classic business to casual shirts. Proper cloth custom shirts start to $85. really high quality made from premium Italian and Japanese fabrics. And Proper Cloth has literally hundreds of five-star reviews on Google and Yelp. Proper Cloth is literally the highest rated custom shirtmaker on Google. Even GQ claims their favorite online shirt maker is Proper Cloth. This is the future of shirts. The website is easy to use. Your custom sizes and preferences they're all saved into your profile. You can even order on your phone. Now this is super

important and unique. Proper Cloth guarantees a perfect fit. Remakes are absolutely free and the team there makes it super easy to do. Stop wearing shirts that don't fit. Start looking your best. Go to propercloth.com and enter promo code watch to save $20 on your first shirt. That's propercloth.com slash watch and gift code watch

for $20 off your first shirt. Hey guys, just also want to tell you about Sonos. Sonos is a smart speaker system that streams all your favorite music to any room or every room and you control your music with one simple app. You fill your home with pure immersive sound. Been using Sonos for a couple of months. I love it so much.

If I'm having a party, I can play Sonos, and it can be playing in every room. You can have the whole thing going. If you're studying in one room, working in another, cooking in another, you're trying to have quiet time in another, different songs, different styles of music for different rooms. One simple app brings together all your favorite music services and lets you control everything from songs to volume to rooms. In any room or every room at once, you can play a different song in the living room, or bedroom, or the same track in every room.

You add your existing music services or discover something new. you just go to sonos.com, you will not be sorry. Okay, we're back. I want to ask, this is like coming off the Black Mirror thing, but Sam, he's back, but he's staring at me. He's back, but he's not happy about it. I'm very, very upset. We're talking with Sam about his favorite shows of the year and our favorite shows the

year. I do want to ask you one last Black Mirror question that maybe we could take to go into the other shows, which is, without getting too specific, some of the stuff that's happened in the last couple of months has definitely, like, definitely did impact my appreciation of Black Mirror. I was definitely like, yeah, man, like, that's not a fantasy. That's just that that's happening. You know, the catastrophic general election?

Yeah, or or hacking or the way that people's lives are being manipulated on through social media, through the social media is become weaponized and. Yeah, I mean, you're, you're somebody who writes a show that is taking place adjacent to reality. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, you have characters. from our world in your show.

Right. But, you know, if you're working on the next season of Mr. Robot now, I mean, how much of this stuff is in your head and how much of it is in your head when you're watching television? Well, you know, so I'm a human. So obviously it's going to be in my head. I don't love this notion that writer is... That's exactly what a West World Robot would say. I'm a human guy.

Sam, is that a bird coming out of your stomach? No, you know what? Like, of course I'm going to take in what's going on. I'm very angry. that we have this extremely unprinciable, dumb person, frankly, as the president-elect of the country, that's obviously going to fuel, that fuels creativity, that fuels art. It doesn't have to be literal, it can be metaphorical, it could be whatever, but not to try and like, oh, I've got to put that away, I've got to compartmentalize,

it's ridiculous. Why wouldn't you use that? Art's all about emotion. You've got to let your strong feelings kind of filter through. And again, not necessarily literally. But to get back in terms of whether it ruined your experience of watching Black Mirror, see, to me, the thing is, are you entertained? Yes, you could watch something depressing. And there are movies.

Like, there are dramas. And this is part of the reason why I don't love. And we're talking about dramas like with a capital D. Yeah, sure. You know what I mean? Where it's like, okay, this is a terrible part in history. You're about to tell me the story of how terrible and sad it was. And that is the end of the story.

And you are going to go home and just feel sad. and terrible about that part of history. Are we talking about the Americans now? Earlier. But to me, it's like, and I know you and I have talked about this case. I want to be fucking entertained. And I'm not saying there's no legitimate purpose for those kind of stories, because maybe that's a learning thing or knowledge.

I don't want to just learn. I want to learn ambient entertain. And that's the thing about Black Mirror. I think, yes, does it reflect our society? Maybe the worst parts of our society, it does. But in the most, in my opinion, in the most entertaining way. Okay. Here's the show I want to make the case for is Quarry, which is a show that was on Cinemax.

It is a crime show, early 1970s. A guy comes back in the Vietnam War and basically becomes a hired assassin in the South. And, you know, first of all, Sam, I don't know if you know about this, but this show, every episode was directed by one guy, which I just think, I don't know if that's ever been done before. I don't know. On television. But a lot of props to Greg Yattanois because this show. And because I've heard that actually Sepinwall wrote about one of the episodes being this remark. I don't know what the episode was.

The last episode, which is that we finally reveals what the main character did in Vietnam. And it's basically, he does a wonder. Like everyone wants to do the big tracking shot. And it is absolutely devastating and astonishing. And right up there with anything else that's been, any other shot or sequence that we've been lionizing on TV from Battle of the Bastards to the episode of True Detective. Yeah. This show, I love Crime.

Mr. Robot season. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not familiar you're on my list. You're gonna make season three like one shot. Yeah, just one. What's up now, fuckers? Ten hour shot.

The entire season. You have to sit there for 10 hours. You'll have to explain that to Ronby, but don't go along with it. No, I just, we're not breaking for lunch. What we're talking about for atmosphere, like Corey was just absolutely astonishing.

I just want to say, I wanted to put it up there. I haven't seen this show. No, I know. I'm trying to get you. I'm looking at you. I do want to watch it. In terms of atmosphere, in terms of place, era, vibe, like the smoldering cigarettes, the music, the sweat, you feel that you are in this place.

Period. It's period, yes. It's like 1972, Memphis. It's the performances, Logan Marshall Green is really terrific in it. Anyway, I just, I need to make the case for Quarry on Cinemax. If you have a subscription, you can watch it all on Mexico. I just thought the show was absolutely, it blew me away. I was surprised by it.

I was already a sucker for this kind of thing. Chris probably is too, because it's just a hard-boiled, like. It's really cool. Pulp Show, it's my number three because it succeeded far beyond. It is on the list. Yeah. Yeah. What's one of yours? So I have two, well, I'm not going to bore you with Horace and Pete.

I know you assholes haven't watched it yet. I don't know why. That's actually my number one. If we're going to strictly strict it, it's my number one. It's, it's, um, and if you, you know, by the way, the weird thing is I've seen it on a few lists. I've seen it on a few top 10 lists. I don't know why it's not.

getting a little more attention, but, um, that's your number one show though. Number one show. I mean, talk about inventiveness, uh, from the distribution model. Um, it's literally just destroying any concept of whatever the hell you used to call TV. Um, and it's just going in whatever direction it wants to go in the most gleeful way possible. And it's funny and it's sad and it's about mental illness and it's about relationships and it's about fathers and sons. And it's just up and it's got brilliant performances, literally from top down.

I mean, Laurie Metcalf, you know, you've heard about her monologue and it's, I mean, I think she got nominated literally for that one scene. But she's, but that's doing a disservice to everybody else

is also amazing in the show. So it literally, like not only is it, it's like basically in it, it's experimentation, its style, its substance in peak form. Okay. I can't I can't really higher enough and one other show just want to throw out.

You've you've you've admitted that you have watched shows because we have advocated for them. Yeah. We owe you. We will do you the service. I will go back and I will watch that. Thank you. A more fun one I'll throw out there because it was it was a number eight on my list I think. It's actually this show called 3%.

Have you heard about this? On Netflix. Brazilian show. And I thought it was really fun. It's like this weird. It like does Y.A. What I want Y.A. dystopia to do, but they just, you know, because it's in the movies and it's PG-13 and try

and get kids to watch it, they don't, in my opinion, don't necessarily do it well. It does it with some teeth. It's actually kind of a fun watch. I think she... Three percent. Three percent. That's a good get. What do you got? I know. He went deep. I was going to shout out... I take this shit seriously, Greenwald. So I wanted to shout out, um, we haven't talked about this, this series at a really long time. I think it came and we were excited and then we were kind of like just maybe we just lost momentum with it. But I really liked Preacher a lot.

Can I say something in my defense? When I was making this list, I was doing it for the Seppenwall's Abrocks Critics Poll and he had best series, best new series. I forgot Preacher existed. I really dug it too. Was it on Seppin Wall's list? I don't even know if it was on it, but I was making my list for his thing. So this will be published.

And he even had a best new series list. It would have been on my best new series list and I forgot it. So I don't really, I don't think I've ever self-identified as like a nerd or like a fanboy kind of thing. Well, you didn't need to self-identify. Well, no, but I mean, so the issue with it though is that, you know, that kind of, the rise of like nerd culture and the sort of dominance it has over, I sort of resent it in terms of the movies especially where I'm just like, it sucks that all the oxygen is taken up by these 15 tent pole superhero franchise movies per year. Sam loves Marvel movies. He wrote it into Mr. Robo. But I like them at the expense of everything from, say,

nocturnal animals having a bigger budget or like nobody trying to make trading places or 48 hours anymore. You know what I mean? And I don't know that those aren't one-to-one exchanges that are happening. But in my mind, it's just like we are, I'm like, I'm seeing Rogue One tonight. I'm like electricity running through me. It's not like I'm not down for this stuff. But the reason why I'm talking about Preacher is because Preacher,

actually woke up the nerd in me where I was like, I actually don't even have a ton of allegiance to the comic in the first place, but the passion and energy of the filmmaking in the show and also the performances were so refreshing that I was just blown away by it, and it kind of made me believe in that as source material again to some extent. Yeah, the cast is just incredible. One of the things about this peak TV era that people don't talk, talk about it as just the lack of resources. There aren't enough great actors to make all these

projects great. And they got three great actors in that show. Yeah. They had, I mean, Joseph Gilgan and Ruth Naga and Dominic Cooper, the three main leads are just. So I should, here's the thing. I don't, I'm like kind of done with comic book. I mean, I am going to watch Legion. Like that looks interesting. I hear it's good. Yeah. And I and I and I and, you know, the writing is patchy. I've heard. Yeah. Right. In spite of the writing, I've heard it could. It could be an interesting show. I can't wait to, when that show comes on and all I talk about is the cinematography. That's all I feel qualified to talk about.

It's good framing. But look, let me just say this. So for whatever reason, the comic book genre is just not in my... But given that, did I love Richard Donner's Superman? Absolutely. Did I love Tim Burton's Batman? It's still probably my favorite superhero movie. Did you love Gavin Hood's X-Men Orange's Wolverine?

I did not. Can I just put a pin in one thing here for the next podcast we're going to do? Because we are all the same age. We need to do a podcast on the formative movies of the 80s that actually matter. Like we need to talk about like... But it shouldn't really be a discussion. It just should be us listing 112 movies from the 80s and seeing of Sam. But just like like Hot Dog the movie.

Like all this stuff that used to be on like cable. Like these are formative like you're accidentally at home and you watch this movie. It's not that it's like has as much zombie stuff. Although it has quite a bit of supernatural stuff. This is Hot Dog the movie. It's that they have the same kind of like, let's tie a camera to a two by four and like swing the two by four around kind of like energy that Sam Rumi and like early Cohen brothers had that too and raising Arizona and simple. I don't know. It's just I'm excited to see what they do. I love Peter Jackson. Like, oh, like have you ever seen bad taste? Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. Or dead live. Okay. That's the vibe. All right. I'll check it out. So what about you? I'll just run through a couple more. So we don't. I'll just run through a couple more. So we don't. I don't. I. Obviously, there was showing... Are we wrapping up? Is this it?

Well, I have a final question for you, but yeah, we're wrapping up soon. But I mean, should I list the... Go ahead. Yeah, bang it out. I did have a show in USA called Mr. Robot, but only because... I know you don't like compliments, so it's only because the elf performance. Okay, great. That's why I liked it.

As long as it's just for Elf. Fleabag, I just thought was astonishing. Which, by the way, I've seen the first few of those. I love it. I haven't finished it yet. You've got to get back to it. I got to get back to it. Catastrophe, I think, is funnier than almost anything else on TV.

Halt and Catch Fire. did something this season, especially in the last two episodes, that was really surprising and really exciting with this time jump. It set them up for an even better show. I mean, it's a unique circumstance where it's a show that has kind of been chasing the best version of itself and somehow had four seasons of fully funded television to do that. But I think they finally found it.

Well, that's my whole list. So your turn. Wait, you missed one. No, well, I had mentioned Stranger Things in OJ before. And Americans. I heard, I said Americans when you were looking at them. But what's the ranking? Like, what are you?

Oh, Atlanta number one, Americans 2, 4, 3. Got it. That's my top 3. I'll run through the last few because I want to spend more time on yours. I have Last Panthers and Gomorra on my list. Because you love Europeans shooting each other. Europe seems really chill. Gamora is, if you haven't seen Gomorrah,

that's like a real good litmus test to how 100 you can keep it because there is no brightness in Gamora. It's just literally dudes just shooting each other in Italian projects. And then crying. Yeah. Not really. Like just running each other over with motorcycles. Well,

they don't cry when they, they cry when they get shot and then they die. Like that kind of crying. Other shows I have on. I would cry too. On mine, we talked about search party.

I just found that to be like a really delightful, um, awesome example of, hey, we're going to make this thing. We're going to put it out. Hopefully people like it. I loved it.

I'm glad people caught onto it. Um, I was really glad to see A Leia Shockat get, you know, a show, a full show. And she actually had a really cool year. If you haven't seen her in Green Room.

Green Room. He was badass. Yeah. That director, by the way, remember our director test? Yeah. That he might be it. Jeremy Solnier. Yeah.

And my other ones are... Can't do hard. Anthony Bourdain parts unknown, which is sort of me and Andy's one of our favorites. It is a cheat. We've talked about the Houston episode being one of our favorite episodes of Sullivan this year. Then you got to throw on Samantha B. No Samantha B? No full frontal.

I don't have any politics stuff on mine. I'm out on... Newsroom season two. I'm out on all that. Going back to rewatching that. Stranger Things Corian Preacher, yeah. All right, bring it home. Okay, I got, I did Horace and Peter Ready, Black Mirror, Game of Thrones in Atlanta.

Girlfriend Experience, which you guys haven't seen. It was late 15. It would have been on my list. I'm not even trying to. Are you saying it's ineligible? It was not late 15. It was not. Oh, that's the Nick season two.

Yes. GFE is like spring spring 16. I got to get back to it. It was amazing. It was amazing. Take something off. We write that. I'll take one of my European shows off. Transparent.

But you guys... I like transparent a lot this year. But not on your list. Interesting. I just, this is a really good example of like a lot of stuff that's like just around the same level for me. And it was just picking the stuff that I loved. Transparent like for me just kind of gets better every year.

It's in for a comedy especially to do that. Actually the other show comedy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But the other, the other show is actually comedy with a cavalcy is Veep. Yeah. as the other one.

Veep is so crazy funny and so dangerously close to the truth in an abstract way up to this year, just in terms of, like, I think of how Washington really works. It's something that our pals from Keep It at 1600 have said multiple times that Veep is much more accurate

to their experience in Washington. It's like second only to designated survivor. Second only to designated survivor and certainly not at all like House of Cards. But what are they going to do now? Like where is the comedy? You know, I don't know. And again, maybe it's just me

because I can compartmentalize a little better. But I have to say, Is there a show? And I love, there's a lot of comedies that I didn't make my list. I obviously don't l-O-L to transparent, right? I don't even know if I really all-led Atlanta. I don't know if I, if we're talking about, you know. I old-led to parts of Atlanta.

Yeah, with the invisible car. And I yelled silently. But Veep on points every Sunday night. The Veep episode where Hugh Lorry and Julie Louis-Rife is like just tear each other's heads off at the end of that. episode it was like it was I think my favorite, maybe my favorite moment on TV is when they have the secret meeting without

Gary. And then they also have the secret meeting without like just that moment. I mean I just we should have done that we're going to have next week people here our nominees for the wall are sort of people of the year and basically we need to do a podcast just to say that Kevin Dunn is the greatest performer of any year for that performance on V.

Before we end here, you're in the midst of Mr. Robo right now preparing season three. What do you like most about this part of the process when you're actually writing it you're with your writers you're not because directing takes up a lot of your time too but what do you like about this i mean this is the fun part because you just make up shit you're literally kind of coming i mean the frustrating part is when you're reading back and you're breaking story and you're like well wait a minute this is boring

we've seen it and and then you are kind of racking your brain to keep it fresh keep it alive and then that's when it gets really exciting and so for me this is the fun part i always look at making a or whatever TV, the three parts kind of goes like this. The writing is kind of like, you know, imagine, you know, you just let your imagination run free. You know, it's like your fantasy. It's all perfect in your head. Production is when everything just like goes to shit and like all the mistakes happen. And the production, you know, it's like everything just falling apart and people are late

and whatever. And you just got. And then out of that comes, you know, oh, they actually, actually, that's better. The changes are better. people come with the great ideas and the production design is it isn't exactly what you thought of in your head and a new creation starts to form and then editing is like kind of bringing it all home so honestly it's they're all like you kind of get you kind of get annoyed with every process towards the end of each process because you you know and then you get reinspired

like as you begin the next stage so uh so let's talk a little bit about what we might be excited for for next year. Yeah. Right? Personally, I've just, you know, because of the Nick, because of girlfriend experience, which he executive produced, I'm just really excited when Steven Soderberg makes television. He's got this show coming out on Netflix called Godless, which is set in a New Mexico mining town with a shell dockery from. Wow, I have not heard about this.

Yeah, and now I'm excited. I'm just really pumped. He made this. Yeah, him and Scott Frank. He's directing it Scott Frank. Wow. That's crazy. So I'm really excited for that.

Now I'm excited for that. Young Pope! I am excited for that. I'm so excited for the young folk. That trailer. What the fuck is that? Also, by the way, it's like you were saying it. This is a one filmmaker going for it.

Yeah. Who has not made television before directed every episode, got Jude Law to play a chain smoking young pope named Lennie. And Diane Keaton to play a nun. I'm so psyched. And it's going to be on HBO every Sunday and we're going to be talking about it. The other one is, guys, Twin Peaks is coming back. Oh, yeah.

That's crazy. This is so crazy. Do we know if it's all 16 episodes? Is it running 16 straight weeks? Do we know that? I don't know if anyone knows. It was supposed to be seven, and then he didn't stop, and he cast everyone in the world, and he was just been doing this.

So I don't even know if Showtime knows what they have. But that was the most important show in many ways of my life. It was my first obsession, my first favorite show. I cannot believe there's going to be more of them, and that's happening this year. I am excited. I'm genuinely excited for Legion. Fargo Fargo

Season 3 Which because to me It's like You know the one thing is Every year right You like Especially in movies I did this all the time

Where you You think okay I just want one masterpiece Like there's gonna be all these guys trying And we're talking the top of the top And you're lucky you get the one masterpiece And sometimes in a year you get two Like I think the last time I'm

Like there will be blood and no country fold man. And Michael Clayton, there was a couple of notes. Yeah, yeah. And then it's just like, wow. And last year with TV, 2015,

I thought Fargo season two, that was our, that was our masterpiece. And Horse and Pete is number one on my list. Do I know if it, do I think it's a, I love it. I don't know if I consider it a master's,

do you guys feel like there was a masterpiece in TV this season? No, I know. Not in the way that you're talking about. I think because so much of our loved Atlanta's excitement. Wait, do you agree with me on Fargo season two or no? It's a masterpiece? Yeah. I mean, I'm corrupt.

Do you? I do. Yeah, and I also think that... Because I think those are pretty flawless season of television. There was a sustained level of excellence or competence or pleasure in television this year that was higher maybe than any other year I've been watching TV. But the highs, like very, very highest ceiling was not as high as it has been when Madman was just locked in or Lost was locked in or Deadwood was locked in.

So I think that we were sitting here, we could do another hour of all the other shows that we also liked, you know? Yeah, I liked a lot. Yeah, but I felt the same way this year about movies

where I was like, there's a lot of very good movies. I was going to ask you about that because I haven't watched as many. I still haven't seen Moonlight or Hell or Highwater, Lollah Land or any of those. And I really, and I love arrival,

love arrival. I don't know if I had, if I got my masterpiece. Yeah, I don't think so. That just means, hey, for people in the creative community listening, you just got to try harder. I mean,

just grind. Guys, what is, oh wait a minute. I'm part... Whoops. All right, thank you so much to Sam for joining us. Thank you, Andy. What a great year in television. It was a lot of fun.

Thanks, Baranskys. Hey, guys, really quick. Just want to say thank you to Sonos again. Sonos is a smart speaker system that streams all your favorite music to any room or every room, and you control your music with one simple app and fill your home pure, immersive sound.

Andy and I love Sonos. We've been using it for months. It has changed the way we both listen to music and our homes. Bring all your music in one app. One simple app brings together all your favorite services unless you control everything from songs to volume to rooms. You can listen to podcast. You can listen to the radio from all over the country on tune-in. You can listen to Spotify, Apple, whatever. In any room or every room at once, you can play a different song in the living room, bedroom, bedroom, or bathroom, or the same track in every room if you're having a party.

Add your existing music services or discover something new. Go to sonos.com. Hey guys, thanks to proper cloth. You know, finding a dress shirt that fits is hard. Collars are too tight. Sleeves are too long. Something is always not right. Well, ordering a custom fit shirt, that's never been easier thanks to ProperCloath. At ProperCloath.com, you can easily create a custom shirt size in seconds by answering 10 easy questions. No measuring is required. Proper Cloth even guarantees a perfect fit. Remakes are absolutely free, and the team there is there to make it super easy to do. Look, just stop wearing shirts that don't fit.

Go to propercloth.com and enter gift code watch to save $20 off your first shirt. That's propercloth.com slash watch and enter gift code watch for $20 off your first shirt. shirt.