The Watch - Ep. 109: ‘The OA’, ‘La La Land’, and ‘20th Century Women’

Episode Date: January 3, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald remember Carrie Fisher and George Michael (3:27). They also discuss the new Netflix drama ‘The OA’ (12:42) and awards season (27:05), including the films ‘La La Land’ (29:30) and ‘20th Century Women’ (38:40). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by USA's Colony, season two from the executive producer of Lost. Carlton Cuse comes another season of the USA original drama colony. In the near future, Los Angeles has been invaded by outside forces and life under the occupation is brutal. Thus, Will and Katie Bowman, played by Lost Josh Holloway and the Walking Dead Sarah Wayne Callies, must fight to keep their family safe, but nothing can prepare them for what is to come. Don't miss the new season of Colony, premiering Thursday, January 12th, at 10-9 Central, Only on USA. I need sports to have to clear the run.

Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the rigor.com and joining me in the studio. It's the New Year's baby. It's Andy Greenwald. Happy New Year. Is the New Year's a thing, right?

I just assumed it was a thing that happened on Twitter. Well, I know that they're like New Year's babies that's like, oh, like, you know, action. Wait, who is that? The old man? Like Jim Gardner's like, now we have like a New Year's baby arrived. Oh, like I was the one born on New Year's. Yeah, but then there, isn't there also, isn't the baby also the icon?

Yeah, the old year shuffles off. I just want to get my facts straight, man. I saw you on New Year's. You knew I was being reborn that night. You saw me going to my chrysalis. It's a new year, Chris. I'm so excited for 2017. Can I say something?

I actually do feel like I have emerged from a chrysalis of some sort. You did come in a lot of energy today. Because I feel like, you know, the cool thing about, even if it's just an arbitrary, you know, flip the calendar. kind of thing. I just really like when it's just like all new stuff in front of us.

Yes. You know? I mean, some stuff in front of us that I'd rather hurdle. Let's get rid of health care for everybody. Woo!

2017! Get sick, baby! Let's do it. But there's a lot of television coming. Oh, TV, yeah. Yeah, and there's, you know... This feels more essential than ever when you put it like that.

Jamie Fox has got a movie coming out in January 27th called Sleepless. When Jamie Fox has a movie coming out in January, you know it's time to pay attention. But we're going to start out by reviewing what we've missed, because it's been a couple of weeks. We had a couple of those pods that we had pre-taped, like the wall. People can go check those out.

We had the Sam Esmail Best of TV, 2016. That was a great one. A couple things. One thing that we missed, and I just want to go out here and just say, you're welcome to Southern California for personally ending the drought. You're really taking this personally. Because as far, like, okay, 2012. Bill Simmons, a guy you know, and I've met, has said to me, he's like, you should move out to L.A.

Because everyone else moved to L.A., Grandin's out in L.A. And it was the first time that came into my head. You'd never thought about it before. Ever. It never even occurred to me. I was like Daniel Lerusa and the karate kid, like a jersey all the time. I don't know what I'm talking about. But I was like, you know, I was like, I bet if I go.

Do you think Daniel Leruso walks through karate kid, be like, Jersey for life, son? Yeah, inside the shower costume. I was like, I'll probably end the drought. I personally will do it. Like, if I moved there thinking like it's going to be warm and sunny, I'll end the drought. Yeah, you see, we've had this fixation about it. Like I said to you, I was like, now you get to install your fountain. Chris, I just feel like my neighborhood in the east side of L.A.

needs its own Belagio. It's rained like nine times in the last 15 months. It's rained so much in the last two weeks, and I feel like you're welcome. I think that's a good thing. I don't want people to misunderstand. So we miss your meteorological takes. What else do we miss? Just call me dopplero.

It's some sad news. A couple people passed away from the sort of pop culture world. Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds, obviously. Yeah, quick thing on that. That was incredibly, that both that, I mean, I'm not the only person to say this, but the mother passing the day after the daughter was really heartbreaking. We should say a few things about Carrie Fisher. I just want to say about Debbie Reynolds.

First of all, one of the best things in the behind the candelabra movie. I don't know if people remember that she was in that. about that. As Liberace's mother, she was still killing it. She was great. Also, singing in the rain, one of my favorite films of all time. Is it really? Yes. My daughter's favorite film. Watch it constantly.

Kathy Selden's an all-time character. Debbie Reynolds is so good in that. It's just kind of amazing. It's kind of an amazing career performance. But the Carrie Fisher thing, that just sucks. Yeah, I was watching some clips from Postcards from The Edge. And that's like

a movie they really don't, when they say don't make them like they used to. They really don't make movies like that. I don't think in terms of just how acerbic and acidic it is. I think that that's more of the realm of television now. I was about to say that. Postcards on the edge

would be an Amazon series today. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. No, not necessarily. But I don't know necessarily that you would get Merrill Streep doing postcards at that time was like about as famous as you could get as an actress or as big of the name as you could get as an actress. That would have to be Jennifer Lawrence doing. postcards from the edge on Amazon for it to sort of mirror up, you know?

But that's an incredible movie. If people haven't seen it, that's based off of her memoir. Mike Nichols directed it with Dennis Quaid and Meryl Streep and Shirley Claim playing the Demby Reynolds role. It's wonderful that everybody, you know, that people all over the world, our age and a new generation loves Princess Leia. But the thing about Carrie Fisher is that she was smarter and funnier than anybody else. Yeah.

And that is a Titanic achievement, too. She's kind of a There was like a degree to which she was like Hollywood's She represented like Hollywood's like Hidden intellectualism You know I think that in the last since especially since like the late 70s When film the film industry sort of switched over from the new American cinema That people talked about and moved more towards

These sort of corporate blockbusters that were now just kind of take for granted But Hollywood was this place for where a lot of intellectual fled the East Coast and fled low-paying writing jobs. Like, are you describing me right now? No, I'm just, but that's, like, that trajectory is not, like, it's a pretty well-worn one. And it was, but there was a lot of, like, sort of very, like, bright people who were working in California at the time. And she was, she was among the smartest. But I also think in terms of presaging a confessional era that hasn't always resulted in the highest of highs.

I don't mean that as a pun. I don't even mean the pun. she lived this life in the public eye from the minute she was born and struggled mightily in ways that we are fairly comfortable talking about publicly now. But I don't think people were expecting to hear certainly from their princesses in their sci-fi epics. No, and owned it in a way that I think is still pretty unique to her. And the strangest thing about it is, you know, we know from Rob Delaney's piece in The Guardian that she actually filmed all her scenes for catastrophe season three.

And that she's very funny on that show. she was funny and everything. And in this piece, Rob Delaney says that Sharon Horgan and he, you know, they write all the scripts. They're the stars of the show. They are maniacal about their dialogue. They let her improvise because no one was going to tell her no and she was funnier than them. Huh. That's why she was coming back from London.

She just finished filming Catastrophe Season 3. We don't know, and these things don't really matter in the face of such a loss, but we don't know what will happen with these Star Wars movies. Yeah, she did film episode 8, right? Yeah, she finished her stuff for eight. But they'll have to figure, I mean, yeah. Dude, she was a queen in seven. Yeah, she was great.

She was a queen in seven. I feel like people may be dinged on that. But she was a queen. Oh, and Force Awakens? Yeah. Yeah. She was awesome. She was awesome.

You know, another person who sadly passed away during the Christmas break that we were gone for was George Michael, which, you know, wasn't someone who had, you know, obviously hadn't had as much, like, sort of stage time as Carrie Fisher had. And these two things have nothing to do with one another. But, you know, one of the things that was neat about all the remembrances of his work. was just how much I had forgotten, like, that was a point, especially around the time of faith and freedom where, you know, the biggest pop stars in the world were also often very confrontational. You know, not necessarily punk rock and sound or aesthetic, but between NWA and George Michael and a lot of the stuff that was happening around the late 80s and the early 90s, it was just a really interesting time, especially because you had that nascent, not nascent, but the, the incredible power of MTV and the incredible power of doing a music video and how confrontational you could be visually. And he was someone who would push boundaries even if his sound was relatively traditional.

First of all, Faith was all bangers. That album was so good. And I think that people who are younger who listen to this podcast probably have a hard time understanding how famous he was and how big that album was. Like that album owned MTV. You could not turn on MTV without a single from that. that right and had like and those two videos like the faith video and then the freedom video had that's with that prejudice right but I just mean like the the the trend the that was also because I was

building up to that but that was back when music videos actually people would do you know references within the music videos to one of them so they were the the freedom video burn the leather jacket three years later he burns it in freedom right I think people should definitely check out our friend Wesley Morris's piece on George Michael that was in the times over the break but I just remember The thing about the George Michael Faith era, it's impossible to overstate how big he was, how big those singles were. It was impossible at our age, I think, to appreciate.

It wouldn't matter because those were still good songs, but he was the mastermind behind that. He wrote those songs. I mean, he was that talented in front of, you know, behind the microphone and in the studio. One of the biggest memories I have from that era, from 87, 88, and those songs was, I remember reading a story about how all of those songs

charted top 10 at what was then called Black Radio, where we'd have called Urban Radio or whatever. And there was some interesting pieces. Our friend Rembert Brown wrote this too. Yeah, the freedom, the MTV classic, the 10th anniversary of MTV performance of freedom that he did. And just the embrace of George Michael by the African-American community, that those records charted on Black Radio

because of who he was, the way he sang, what he sang about in his message. It's kind of amazing. And then the other thing that he was forward thinking about is he tapped out. He was just like, he wasn't in that freedom video. He was not comfortable being that guy. He was 32, I think, when he was just like, now I'm good.

Yeah. And then obviously struggled with a lot of things since, and that's the real, that's real tragedy because of his age and because of the relatively reduced output. But that guy was a great pop star. Yeah, people should check out Wesley and Reberts pieces on George Michael because those were really good. So let's move on. We'll talk a little bit today about the OA, the new show on Netflix.

Yes. That dropped when we were off and people were chirping about it. Yeah. And then we'll also be talking a little bit about two Oscar contenders that we both watched at various points over the last couple of weeks, Lala Land and 20th century women. Yeah, we, I think, as we build up towards award season, because you know, you and I are all about award season. I love just handed them out.

We, you know, you've seen all the movies. We should put that out there. I've missed a couple, but yes, I've seen a lot of them. In general, you've seen all the movies. I am trying to see more now. Now, guys, I'm sorry, not on airplanes. These are now couch movies. Yeah.

Because I get the screeners. I got the screeners. So I'm watching them slowly, and I watch two. Let's talk TV first. Yeah. Oh, and we should also say a lot of shows coming back Thursday. Right. We're going to get back to some more of them.

Taboo is coming. Homeland back. I know. And she's home. Not just home. She's in Brooklyn. I want to check out the show The Mick with Caitlin Olson on it. Are you hype on that?

Well, I just like Caitlin Olson a lot. Do you think she can, can she carry this network sitcom? Sure. Okay. Anything's possible. Wow. You are positive this year. Let's take a quick break and we'll be back to talk about the OA.

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That's blue apron.com slash the watch. Blue Apron, a better way to cook. All right, man, let's talk a little bit about this show, the OA. It's a new show on Netflix, starring and co-created by Britt Marling and Zalbot Monglish, who is as a... a lot of people know the brother of Rostom from X of Vampire Weekend, who just made that Hamilton Lethauer's a record that I love so much. These two are, they're indie film friends.

They make movies together. Yeah, long-time collaborators and a really interesting case where I would say that largely the movies that they make, whether it's the sound of my voice or the East or another Earth, are largely genre fair. I mean, like, it's not out of the ordinary, if they had pitched these movies or if these movie had come out from major studios with huge $75, $100 million budget, which you wouldn't be surprised. But they go about their business in a different way.

They write and produce and direct their own stuff so that, you know, one would assume so that they could have, like, much more control over it. And it's certainly a really interesting trajectory for Britt Marling, who has largely stayed out of other people's work with the exception of Babylon, the Danny Boyle produced BBC show. Yeah, which was quite good. see her channel for it. She was, I don't remember. The British show. But it was on here. Babylon, yeah. Sun Dance, I think. And she was

also in Arbitrage, which was like a law crime thriller from a couple years ago with Richard Gear. And one note, like I feel like there is a... It's kind of like a Bernie Madoff story. But there's like a very small tradition of of artists coming to Hollywood to make movies and saying, no, I'm just going to make my own stuff for myself.

Yeah. I guess like sort of Ed Burns kind of thing, although he eventually started acting other people stuff too. But yeah, and he didn't have somebody like Danny McBride who does do that, like still shows up and lots of other people's stuff. It's kind of commendable because I don't think there are that many female filmmakers who do that to that degree. And because she is certainly talented and can act in other people's stuff, but they are devoted

to their own vision. And this is Netflix doing something that I used to argue for all the time, which is they have so much money, basically endow filmmakers. You know, Amazon's now doing that too as well with a bunch of different people and just basically being like, you know how to do this stuff and other people weren't giving you money. So, okay, try it as a TV show. Yeah.

Even maybe on some level, building off of what we all learned when someone told Sam S. Mill that Mr. Robot was too long of a script to be a movie. So it's a TV show. And that worked. We saw that a bunch in 2016. Joe Swanberg, an indie director we liked, got to make easy with mixed results. I think it was okay. But certainly in keeping with this aesthetic. And now we've got the OA, which should not be confused with the O.C.

But please tell me someone has mashed these up. I hope so. I really, really want that. The OA is We're not going to super spoil it Because I'm not finished it I'm two episodes away from finishing it You just watch a couple

Yeah But we'll talk about it generally We'll do a spoiler one at some point Hit back a couple weeks from now And do the end of the season I would say And this is like Kind of gonna sound like an underhanded compliment

Or maybe a backhand of criticism or something But one thing that runs through Britt Marling's work Is That her character Who she plays often is more or less the savior of humankind, which is an interesting theme to play with. I mean, I think that like...

This is literally what all actors would do if they could write through a material. But it's like, it's an interesting, like, in the sound of my voice, she plays this possible cult leader who could be supernatural in another earth. She is sort of this, the one person who gets to experience the fact that there's like a parallel dimension. There are lots of themes that she plays with in. and that she plays with that show up in a lot of different movies and have shown up in the OA. And people will recognize, without giving too much away, like some of the hand gestures that happen in the OA are similar to the ones that happen in the sound of my voice.

And just this idea that time and space are malleable and that there are forces greater than we can imagine working around us are things that come up in her work a lot. Yeah, and I would say building off of that, one thing that we are still not used to, although I think we need to become more accustomed to it in TV, is seeing things that are pretty aesthetically consistent or pure expressions of someone's point of view, of someone's artistic vision. Generally, the things we see on TV are smoothed, the edges are sanded, and that's not always a bad thing. Often that's a very good thing, and a reason why they make, you know, 10 to 20 of them a year, and we keep coming back, because they're polished. There are other voices are brought in to make sure that they're a little bit more universal, a little bit more forward-facing. We are now in an era where that's not the case. Certainly we talked to Sam about that, and Mr. Robot is like that, and that's the case here too. And so I found myself watching the beginning of this show almost a little bit at war with my own taste because there were moments,

and there are actually a lot of these moments, I think, as the series goes on, where you're like, okay. Yeah. All right. but that's them just chasing this crazy Pegasus muse down a rabbit hole. And I do think in broad strokes, that's to be celebrated because it results in moments, moments which certainly exist in the first episode for people who have seen it and people who are thinking about watching it, where you're like, I haven't seen this. I have not seen this in TV.

Yeah. And those moments are structural, they're tonal. I mean, I think that it's tough to not give stuff away. So we'll be talking very generally about it, but that doesn't mean, I think it's just that when you see it, you're just like, it does provide a holy shit moment at the end of the first episode

that's pretty unique among shows that I can remember in terms of just inverting some of expectations but also playing around with like the formal aspects of an episode that you expect to take. Well, start at the beginning. I don't think this is a spoiler. The first images of the series

are cell phone camera footage shot in that annoying up and down vertical way that people do when they're not thinking about what they're doing. Right. And to see that on Netflix is jarring and kind of exciting. I didn't expect that.

I didn't expect a TV show to start that way. And then what Chris is alluding to is something that happens at the end where it's not a sudden left turn about 60 minutes into like the 77 minute. By the way, episodes are too long. But 77 minute premiere, the show, the bottom drops out in a way that feels completely disorienting and thrilling. And it's like, oh, wait, I thought I was watching the show, but there's, I'm watching a video game cutscene.

don't even know what this is. And it's almost a play on addictive Netflix episodes because it's not only as it does it make you want to start the new episode, it kind of doesn't give you a choice. That's right. That's right. And it introduced you to what the show is going to be for a while, which is not what you thought. Yeah. So it's basically, the basic setup is just, as Andy alluded to, there's this cell phone footage that you see at the beginning of the first episode of a woman running across a bridge and she jumps off a bridge. She lives. That's Britmorelink's character. Her name's Prairie. At least that's what it is in the beginning. For a minute. So she's been missing for several years. When she leaves home, she was a blind

woman. A blind teenager. Blind teenager. And she turns back. And now she turns up and she can see. And her parents come and pick her up at the hospital and it kind of goes from there. And obviously with anybody who recovers from some sort of of like a trauma. Trauma like that. There's a lot of attention being paid to her among people in her community, and it kind of just goes from there.

There's a very weird, kind of appealing indie cinema, Stranger Things vibe to the first episode. You know, there's some suburban malaise, some sort of dark underbelly stuff that's there. Yeah, it's basically like, yeah, this idea that there's, they play up the creepiness

and also the drabness of living in a, They're in Michigan. Suburban development. Pretty well. You know, there are moments, all I can say about this is I'm into it. I mean, I support the show. And what I mean by that is the vision is so specific and so odd and surprising that I am in the show for the long haul to finish it. There are moments where I am, feel like I am completely out.

There are moments where I'm like, I don't want to be on this ride anymore, get me off. and then there are moments like the one we're talking about at the beginning of the first episode that had me dreaming about the show all night. Yeah. It's they are the sort of people who should be getting these grants basically from Netflix. So I want to ask you a question

because I was kind of surprised when you told me that you liked it. Yeah. So was I. I was surprised. This show is pretty stiff. Totally. And there are parts of it that almost feel like the dialogue has been run through

like Google translate kind of. I agree with that too. People don't talk like this often. Yeah. And it almost feels like an old book sometimes when you're reading it. Like the way

that people talk to each other just feels like an really anachronistic style of speaking updated to reflect like contemporary stuff. But it is ultimately and it gets more so as you go on very much a mystery box show.

And it's very much a show in the tradition of many Netflix binge watches that puts a ton of fireworks in the last five to ten minutes of an episode so that you're like, I have no choice but to continue. If anything, that's probably the only note they got. Netflix does not, is not very hands-on.

Although they seem like very adept at doing that, so it's not like against their will. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that at this point you just realize that that's what you can do. Yeah, I think I'm into it because that, because it's specific and it's unique.

You know, there are plenty of moments where you can see the seams. But those are also the moments where I'm like, this would never have been made. Yeah. Yeah. But that's sort of an interesting, very surprising character. Or there's a moment in the second episode

that's in a flashback where Prairie gets her name. And it's literally like Basel Exposition pops up. Sure. And it's just like, you know, your eyes are blue like American Prairie. I shall name you Prairie. I'm like, come on. But the beauty of that, is like, I have an issue with that.

Britain and Zal don't. They're making their thing. That's kind of crazy that they're allowed to do it. Now, what I'm curious about is what we will never learn, unless we piece other clues together, like, it doesn't get a second season, or maybe it was never meant to. We don't know.

But one thing that we have, I do think that we've been able to tell a little bit when Netflix shows are successful. You know, as everyone knows, they do not release any figures. They do not release any ratings. But you can just sort of sense. You can sort of sense,

and you can also notice things. like on Stranger Things, you know, there's star ratings that users give these shows. The OA rocking a lusty two stars. Oh, is that all? Yeah. Interesting. My guess is a lot of people are like, this is the latest mindbender from the studio that brought us Stranger Things.

And they're like, I'm sorry, why are we in Russia? What? Yeah. And then they're out. So I think it'll be an interesting test to see whether Netflix's platform is so big that the point of it is that it's so big is that there's someone for people. who like their movies and there's stuff for people who don't and they're not going to cross paths or is this delivery system so efficient that more people are going to try this and fall in love

with it than otherwise although this is not exactly an easy show to love yeah and I you know I have to admit I'm trying to interrogate my biases a little bit more right now because like he's 17 man but part of it is like why do I watch the OA and not sense 8 you want me to tell you do you know did you watch sense 8 I mean I had to back when I used to have to watch TV don't they have fairly like they have somewhat similar There is there's a similar messianic nature to it

Yeah yeah yeah I think that Sense 8 because it's the Wikowskis Just has the biggest Wildest canvas possible And some people really respond to that This because they come from an

indie film background Or maybe they're used to small budgets It does have a little bit It's a small story That gets bigger and bigger and bigger And the Russian nesting dolls Not to put too final point on it Exactly

That's why it's such a surprise When it goes a little bit widescreen when it does, because I think it's generally what they do is smaller. And I just, I think I respond to that more. Yeah, and you know what, nine out of ten shows would have taken the end of that episode and then spent the next two episodes being like, is she telling the truth? Yeah.

And in this one, it's like, no, like we're going forward with it. This is also, and that goes back to she is the filmmaker. Like, she's giving herself the Cadberg seat to do this stuff. It's unique. So let's give ourselves and listeners a couple more weeks to catch up. Yeah. This won't be one of those things where we don't come back to it. I promise.

No, no, I mean, I think we'll be fin-in. And I know, I just, we're being careful about talking about it, just because it does sound like at the end, a lot of stuff happens. So I don't want to get too far into speculation about it. We'll just get into it a week or two. By the way, like, what a weird world, just to say it again. Like, there is a show called the OA made by these indie filmmakers that just dropped on Netflix over the Christmas break.

It's just like, okay, here's this thing. Yeah. It's such a weird world we're in, but this, when things like that happen, that's not, that's one of the better things. Yeah, it was interesting. It's like the next couple of months are mostly studio shows, you know, mostly network shows or cable network shows, whether it's taboo or Legion or Homeland or Young Pope.

Young Pope or a big little lies. So I don't know whether or not there is anything that's just going to be like, yeah, here's ten episodes of this mind-bending sci-fi indie film, whatever. There will be some surprise. And just as a side note, you know, I participated in Alan Steppenwell's, Critics poll again this year, and he's very nice to include me, since I'm not really a critic anymore, but that was very nice of him. And there was a list of like your 10 shows of the year and the 10 best new shows.

And I filled it out, and I was like, okay, since then, I have been reminded every day of a show that I watched, enjoyed, or considered. We talked about that I completely forgot. Yeah. Like Preacher, I mentioned on the other podcast I forgot about. Do you remember London Spy? Yes. We like that show.

Sure. That was really unique and interesting show. Nightmanager wasn't even on there, yeah. I forgot London Spire. by existed. I forgot the detour, the TBS show that I spent an entire podcast just basically in ecstasies over Natalie Z. I forgot about it. Yeah. This is a weird, weird time, man. Your time with TV. So this actually dovetails nicely into talking a little bit about these Oscar movies. Okay. Because one of the things that's been weird about this award season is that they,

a lot of these movies have come out in limited release and are now only slowly starting to roll out into wider release. So not to get too into bubbles, but I think it's difficult to really tell there will be like a critical reaction to La La Land and maybe a backlash to La La Land before people have even seen La La Land. Is it out? I believe it is coming. It is out now wide.

I think it's in Philly, so there's that. Well then there's all, that's really who we're talking to right now. But everything from say Patriots Day is not out yet. Yeah, which is a thing. So these movies they get a week release or whatever to qualify for Oscar season, but they don't even exist in the popular imagination yet. Someone was saying that Patriot State could be in another American sniper.

This could become actually a huge hit. Sure. Even though it feels like it's already come and gone. Well, because we were living here, they were marketing it so heavily on local television here, like whether it was during football games or whatever. But I don't know necessarily that they were doing that in Chicago or Austin, Texas. Let's just say what you mean in Philly. Yeah, we're in Philadelphia, the one test market.

Anyway, that is kind of made this, that and the lack of a obvious clear frontrunner. there isn't a gravity or 12 years a slave for that matter there isn't a massive box office hit that wound up being also real awards fodder or the consensus smaller film yeah and I think that there's been there's Manchester by the sea which a lot of people have adored but as actually I think been

for you know because of Casey Affleck's some of the stuff that's been happening with Casey Affleck to be reported by Casey Affleck has been slowed in its awards potential for something Also, as we discussed when we talked about that movie, it's a tough hang. It is a tough hang, but I actually, now in retrospect, don't think it's that much more of a tough hang than a lot of other stuff that came out this year. For people with kids, it's a tough thing.

All right. I mean, I still understand human loss. No, I know, but I just mean, like literally, I think I said this on the podcast. Like, when I told my wife what the movie was about, she was like, passed. Yeah. Just full pass. So that's made this whole season a little bit jumbled. So unlike television, which has very clear.

hey, it's out. Everybody can watch it, whether it's all at once or every episode in a row. The movies are kind of like tripping through the winter here. But that being said, La La Land is started to emerge

as kind of a pretty pretty consensus. I think this might win it if it's not Moonlight, if it's not arrival, if it's not Manchester by the sea, it's probably going to be La La La Land. Let me say this.

It will almost definitely be La La Land. And I don't necessarily say that with praise. I have many of the, opinions that I look forward to sharing with you on a podcast like this one. But if you just look at it, it is movie stars doing

beautiful movie star things. It is self-referential. Hollywood loves self-referential films. It is a positive, uplifting experience at the movies, and people like that. I mean, the artist won Best Picture. Nobody remembers that, but like that won.

I sometimes wonder whether or not that has more to do with Weinstein than it does with the fact that the artist was about movie making. I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, I think it's all those things. But I think if you, you know, it's just kind of a safe default thing. Like a war, like historical epics are going to get nominated. They're going to be favorites.

Always biopics have a leg up. Movies about movies generally, especially when they put a happy gloss on it are going to have a leg up. Chris, I was so ready to love this movie. Were you? I was expecting to love this movie. As mentioned on other podcasts like this one, Singing in the Rain, one of my favorite movies. I've been watching it constantly. The music's good in that one, though.

Exactly. Exactly right. You know what else? The people can dance in that one. Also, it's funny and clever. Look, this is a, let me start with some positive things. You're a big fan of the passengers.

I love electronics in jazz. This movie is beautiful to look at. There is no question. Damien Chazel, this is not the praise I thought I would be giving him. Coming off a whiplash, And I was like, my God, that movie is a masterpiece of precision and timing. And when I heard he was making a musical, I was so excited because of those attributes. I didn't expect I'd be on this podcast saying, what a great photographer he is.

But the composed shots in this movie are beautiful, the way every shot, especially of the city, looks like Los Angeles the way it really is, but particularly a very specific kind of endless purple twilight that is new to me and is quite charming. I was really good with that. You think you live in Seattle and 1994 out here. Exactly. Because I'm just, yeah, I'm basically starting a band to get on Kill Rock Stars in this weather. The other thing that I need to say, for the record, it's a pretty controversial opinion. Emma Stone is a national treasure.

She must be protected at all costs. Her talent is completely off the charts and utterly unique. I have a hard time thinking of other performers who are so completely alive at every second the camera is on them. Effortlessly. Effortlessly. It's bizarre. I mean, in Birdman, I said that her eyes were the best special effect of the year. In this movie, there's such a complete lack of self-consciousness. If you look at Ryan Gosling, who's a tremendous actor, a very different actor, but a very, a tremendous actor,

when he becomes a musical star in this movie, you watch his face and he makes a little smile, like a little all shucks, here I go with a little soft shoe, and he gives it is all. He's not a good dancer. He's not a good singer. But he gives it his all. But he makes this little, like, smile that distances him just a tiny bit from what he's doing. It's a performance. He's acting. She doesn't have that. And I think most actors would have that.

I'm not, you know, he's one of the best we have. It's really exhilarating to watch her. And though I did not like this movie, Chris, I super hope she wins. So why didn't you like the movie? There are a bunch of reasons. I found, what do you want to say your thoughts, too? Do you want

to go through beat by beat here? I liked it. I didn't care for it as a musical, and that sometimes happens with musicals where you're just sort of like, you know, the break away from the narrative is the part where it gets annoying. But by the way, it's barely a musical.

That's the other thing. I felt I was kind of misled. It's not a musical as much as it's like a song and dance thing. I don't think anybody, I know that some people are fans of the music, but I don't think that it has very memorable music. I think that there's lots of scenes that stop so that there can be a dance sequence, though.

Sure. And I think it's anachronistic in a sweet way, like, you know, this idea that, you know, the barista at the Warner Brothers lot. Yeah. You know, and I enjoyed it while I was watching it. I don't think I'll ever watch it again. Yeah. I kind of am fascinated by the version of it that was supposed to be Miles Teller and Emma Watson. What would that have been?

Well, because I think that Miles Teller would have played that role a little bit more pricking. and needy, whereas Sebastian in the version, the Gosling the Gosling version of Sebastian and La Land is kind of Prince Charming, even though they have one fight about whether or not he should go back out on tour. But that's like the only

thing he ever, oh, he gets mad because he's like, so you're saying you want me to make more money? It doesn't look like things are hard for him, even though he can't open his silly club. Like, I just think that if Teller had played that scene, the dinner scene that they have where she's just like, why are you doing this? And he's like, didn't this what you want

to do to put a roof of like, you know, like, I mean, look, Damien Chazelle is a, the filmmaker, the filmmaker, the filmmaker, the filmmaker, the filmmaker, the filmmaker, Damian Chazel is clearly a smart guy. And I'm not just saying that because he went to Harvard. But like, he has to know, unless this really is him, that the character of Sebastian and his point of view is preposterous. Yeah. You put Miles Teller in there being like, only pure jazz. Yeah, right. You're like, oh, he's kind of a, He's kind of a clown. Yeah. But something about him is appealing. Gosling is just like an evangelist. And I'm like, oh, I guess... Also, it's just like you look at Ryan Gosling and you're like, yeah, maybe jazz works out for you.

Like, you know what I mean? Literally maybe everything works out for you because you're Ryan fucking Gosling. Yeah, like maybe jazz is a good idea. Like, this is the thing. This is the thing I struggled with with a movie more than anything else. Like, anachronism, terrific. Great. Like an appreciation of the classics.

Hey, I like old films. You know, I like the ones that Emiston laundry lists at one point. I like pure jazz. I like hard bop. You know me. But there's a vert, but there's that. And there's also like a weird,

um, uh, hard-willed, just head in the sand kind of young person's purity that runs through this movie. This movie to me felt like it was made by an extremely young person. Now he's like seven years younger than us, I think.

Um, this movie, this for me was the movie musical version of a pitchfork record review. in that it felt like it was written by a hyper, hyper passionate 23 or 24-year-old. Someone who's taste. You know, he wrote this before whiplash. Right. Someone whose tastes are hyper-militant. And because they are such, I admire the passion, but a little bit is like, get back to me in a couple years.

Right. We've had a little more life. Because so much of it was like his doggedness about this pure jazz, the scene where he mansplains jazz to her is so silly. Her whole thing about wanting to be a star, wanting to be an actor, but we never know why, because we're, We never see her show. We never learn anything. We don't know any points of view. Everything in that character comes from her performance,

nothing that's on the page. It's, it's, there's just a lack of, there's a lack of self-awareness and a lack of texture. I mean, the dream ending to me. I mean, the dream ending the movie, you know, is that she gets to marry the dude from that thing you do and have a baby.

In five years? I think she gets to be famous too, right? That shit doesn't happen in five years. That was a quick five years. But just in general, like, it's super, hashtag basic. And I think there's a difference between romantic and backwards looking in a fun way and

simply basic. I just didn't see the texture of life in it that I wished the movie had, especially a movie that I thought was not throwing us back to a Golden Age of musicals, but in some ways finding a way to make them relevant and alive for today. My favorite scene in the movie is

when she goes to the pole party and he's playing in the 80s cover band. And she's making him do aha and stuff like doing requests. She was Iran. The flock of seagulls. Oh, yeah. And that was, even though it was sort of like an 80s theme, this party you go to, you don't know anybody and just kind of show up. And then you see a person there that you know from kind of before.

He gave you the finger on the highway. Yeah. And that was the point where the movie could have like pivoted towards like, yeah, these wild little dalliant, like these wild musical outbursts happen. Like when they're walking through the hills and they start dancing to the, like at sunset. and then they're like, should I drive you to your car? And she's like, I'm good, you know. That could have been like a different version of this movie. And then as it goes forward, it just so fully embraces the need to, like, capture every musical trope it can.

Yeah. And pay homage to Hollywood's, like, you know, incredible tradition of musicals. It's interesting, though, the way you're talking about it and the way in which it's not, there's a real earnestness to it, which I think you could also call it basic. And it actually plays very much into the other film we're talking about, the 20th century women, which is also an incredibly earnest look. And I like, you know, I like twee things, man. You know, like I like the positivity of it in general.

There's a review I want to direct people to read, and I can't believe I'm directing people to read this dude's reviews because this dude is notoriously cranky, and I don't always agree with him, but he's certainly passionate about his opinions. That's Richard Brody, who's one of the critics at the New York. Yorker. He has a review that is... Of La La La Land.

You can find it online. Just search Richard Brody, La La Land. It is super harsh. But I think harsh in a way... It's basically the J.K. Simmons and Whiplash review. Right. And I kind of hope Damien Chazelle can stomach it and read this because it is... Everything that he points out is good.

And he points out, he points out specifically the scene with a flock of seagulls and what Emma Stone does with her face in that scene and how suddenly the movie comes to life. and everything else feels like Miles Teller's character in Whiplash in that it is winning by working harder than anyone else. It is a solo when it needs to be an ensemble. And what it lacks, and I do think this more than anything else, it lacked the feeling of wonder that I think can come from musicals. I think the last 25 minutes have a lot of wonder.

I didn't wonder. I didn't wonder. I don't know whether that means about my calcifying Scrooge-ish heart, or because I wanted something. The degree of difficulty with a musical is just really high. Almost impossible. But I wanted it to be good. Maybe this is a case, and I wonder if other people will find this, too, where I am, I was spoiled, not by knowing the plot, but spoiled by the rapturous ecstasy with which it had already been received.

Yeah. So with 20th century women, speaking of going into it with preconceived notions, I read an interview with Mike Mills, who's the director of the film. And writer. And he made beginners before this. And he's not the dude from R.A.M. No. where he was talking about his distaste for Seinfeld, which is... What?

Yeah, and he was like, basically, like, he was like, obviously it's genius, work of genius, but that is just not my kind of thing where you're basically focusing on the worst parts of people. Right. And like the, just sort of like the comedy or drama of awkwardness or uncomfortability or whatever it is that kind of captures that Seinfeldian curb your enthusiasm, Louie kind of like, just really... oh god we're going to have to sit through this whole thing for six minutes while we watch this happen and he was like that's not why i make movies or that's not why i make art like if i'm going to get the chance to do this i want to pursue connection and i want to pursue this like life-affirming moment and i

think that that actually really colored the way i saw 20th century women because i would argue louis does that too but go on sure i mean you could say Seinfeld does too you know um the that seems to be the driving force by in 20th century when you watch it if you watch it under the idea that no matter how bad things get for these characters throughout the movie, there is something about the voiceover that Ed Benning does and that all the, like a lot of the characters do, but the voiceover that kind of like makes these characters both infinite and small. Yes. That is incredibly heartwarming while you're watching it.

Like it's an, it's just such like a beautiful experience while you're watching it. But then as soon as you get out of it, I think I had a, I have a very, very strong reaction in this movie. I feel like I loved it quite a bit, but I can see why people are a little bit like, yeah, that was pretty good. Yeah, my feeling is, and so just a little background, Mike Mills is a long-time artist, visual artist. His first film was Beginners a few years ago with Christopher, amazing performance by Christopher

Plummer and Ewan McGregor is in it. He's also quite good. And that's essentially the movie about his father who came out as a gay man very late in life. a lot of the things you're describing in 20th century women were present at beginners. You know, I think it was a very, it's a very affirming, positive film, almost to the point where you're almost, you keep waiting for the shoe to drop and be a different sort of movie, and it isn't. I like beginners quite a bit. 20th Century Women is his, this is not me saying it, he said this, this is the movie about his mom. Yeah.

And with some details changed. Yeah, it's set in Santa Barbara in 1979, end of the Carter-Dubman. And Annette Benning is raising a teenage son alone. The father in Spoovey's absent. Like Mill's father wasn't absent, but that's one of the changes in it. And living in the mother rents rooms in their big Victorian house to Reda Gerwig's character, who is a young woman who has come back to her hometown after being in New York as an artist and having a brush with cancer.

And Billy Crudeau, the god Billy Crudor, Doc Manhattan himself as a handyman, stoner type with a just tremendous mustache. And then L. Fanning is the girl next door. Billy Crude up right now. It's like an amazing job he's doing. The thing that Billy Crude up, just a quick sidebar here. Not to make this about me here, but I saw that dude in Arcadia on Broadway in like 1995. And I was like, that's the greatest stage.

That's the, I was 18. I was like, that dude is, I literally thought he was a God. I was like he is the most handsome, compelling, charismatic, greatest actor. He's going to be the next big star. And then the weird thing about that dude is when you put him on a movie screen, he's kind of a twerp. Like he comes off as kind of. He just has to be in the right role. He has to be the enigmatic guy and almost famous.

He's not a leading man. It's one of those interesting things. And he also has gotten better as he's gotten older because he's grown into the kind of weirdo self that he projects as. But sorry for the sidebar. The thing about this movie, which I also enjoyed quite a bit, there's a lot to recommend in it,

and I'm just thrilled that movies like this get made, give opportunities for people like Annette Benning to give performances like this. I just wish it would have calmed down and gotten out of its own way because the movie is about what we're talking about and it sort of shambles into the story in a wonderful way that I wish more movies did. It's very 70s and that you don't even know who these people are

or what their relationship is to one another for a while. But the movie is strung together with this voiceover, this cloying voiceover that isn't enough to put it in the larger context and tell you the future. It also Ken Burnses their life. So he's like, the main character is getting into some darker music and then it literally cuts to like Getty images of punk rock. And I was like, yo, I know.

But some people don't. But what if you didn't? Then it wouldn't matter. You would hear the song playing on the stereo in that scene. You'd see the way Greta Gerwig is dancing to it. And you're like, that's an interesting thing that I'm learning. Right. I think it was an interesting effort to stitch people's lives to history.

I just felt like there was a great movie here. Yeah. In between the stitching. Yeah. And that let me down. That's all. Quick sidebar, Greta Gerwig is just terrific in this movie. She's always good and always compelling, but I just thought this is a really, in particular,

really strong performance. Yeah, I really liked the idea that this is, like, you go through this time, especially in the younger part of your life where you are attaching yourself to sociocultural or historical moments to give yourself an identity. So whether it's like you're like, I'm a talking heads fan or I'm a talking heads fan or I'm a a black fat flag fan or I am a feminist or I'm a carpenter or whatever you're doing. I'm a pottery maker. You're just, you're always looking for like some kind of identification through forces bigger than you. And I thought that this movie captured that pretty well. There was, there was something

missing for it for me in there. And there were parts of it that I felt like kind of just meandered, but I couldn't help it be very moved by it. Quick question. Where do you stand on the fannings in general. We've never, we have never had Fanning talk. You know, Dakota's been kind of out of it for a minute, I think. She's been quiet. Yeah, she's been kind of bland low, letting Elle take all her neon demon moments. Her sister Wally pipped her. Nobody saw that coming. Let me say, I have never been a big Elle head. I know that other people have. Richard Brody, for example, the New Yorker. The whole La La La La Land review is just talking about how it's not a masterpiece like Sophia Coppola is somewhere. Yeah. And I'm like, you're losing me, Rich. You're losing on that.

El Fanning is legit really great in this movie. Really compelling, really good part. It feels, for both these movies, maybe wrap up with this. It feels a little uncharitable to be nitpicking and critical because I want movies like this to exist. I mean, it's so hard. You said, not just to make a musical, but to make anything, to make anything personal. I mean, Damien Chazel is very young. He couldn't make this movie unless he got Oscar nomination.

for whiplash unless he got Ryan Gosling to sign on. Mike Mills got to make this movie. I mean, it's about a teenage boy learning through feminism. Yo, we need this movie taught in schools in 2017. Right. But this puts us in this weird place of like celebrate. You want to celebrate the art, but you also want to express an opinion on it. I just, maybe someone needs to do the master cut of this movie where they just cut out the parts I didn't like.

What if like there's the Grito shot first version of this? I'm sure. It's black flag. We'll tell you about it later. You can shazam it. Google it. You don't need to know. All right, man, we'll be back Thursday to talk about the new season of Homeland and the upcoming season of Taboo.

Maybe we'll even hit some Sherlock. Who knows? Oh, do you think we will? I watched it last night. It was very enjoyable. Wow. Yeah. You know, the thing about Chris, you are the engine that keeps this podcast going because you know what you do?

Watch television. You just consume culture. You just eat it. You feast on it. I got nothing else to do. Great job, Baranski. Just want to say thanks again to our sponsor, USA's Colin. From the executive producer of lost Carlton Cues comes another season of the USA original drama Colony.

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