The Watch - Ep. 115: The New ‘Star Wars’ Title, ‘The Good Place,’ ‘The Young Pope,’ and ‘Homeland’

Episode Date: January 23, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald reveal and discuss the title for the next ‘Star Wars’ film (2:48). They also examine how ‘The Good Place’ is changing the possibilities of network television (8:22), why ‘The Young Pope’ is so much fun (22:06), and the problem with ‘Homeland’ (32:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The people have spoken. And Jeff Ross has returned for Roast Battle, too. The Fortnite event features top comedians getting verbally violent until just one is left standing. Featuring a star-thutted lineup of judges, including Snoop Dogg, Sarah Silverman, and Jason Sudakis. This is a battle you do not want to miss. The Fortnite event begins January 26th at 10-9 Central on Comedy Central. And don't miss the live finale on January 29th. That's a Sunday at 109 Central to see who gets crowned the king or queen of cruel.

Hey guys, by the way, we're doing a podcast on Thursday that's going to be largely a mailbag podcast. So if you have questions for me and Andy, make sure you hit us at the watchpod on Twitter. Send your questions to at the watch pod on Twitter. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Rigger.com and joining me in the studio, the kangaroo in the Vatican.

It's Andy Greenwald! Woo! Hello! Down under! From Noah's Ark! Yeah, you're a little wet. It's raining. Yeah, and I don't mean the training day way. No.

Wow, that would be a great way to start Monday. A little angel dust with your coffee? Yeah. How you doing, man? Chris, big day, big weekend. I know you and I both put on our protest boots. We went for a walk, although I actually don't know that you did. We were just discussing this.

Yeah, because I didn't post anything to social media. And I also went alone, which was an interesting move by me. I like, you're kind of the creeper. You're like, I heard the women are marching. Let me just roll up in there. You rolled in alone. Here's what I know. It's interesting.

Maybe this is a comment on our current era, you know, like, thanks to, thanks to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, which I'm not participating in. I'm only on Instagram, as, as the real heads know. Yeah. I know, um, Sky Ferreira was there. Yeah. I know Jamie Lee Curtis was there. You can tell that I was there because I saw the wonderful Carmen Mannheim on my way down there. Cameron Mannheim?

Is it Cameron? You call her Carbon? That's why she got so mad at me. Is it Cameron? It's Cameron Mannheim, isn't it? Oh, my bad. Yeah. From, like, the practice?

I've had it like, I'm, like, batting 2.30 with, like, names and pronunciations right now. That's okay. The Mendoza line is approaching. That's fine. That's fine. Yeah, it was a big weekend for protests and a little respite from the rain. That's good for us. Yeah, that was beautiful.

Culture never stops. No, it doesn't. We're going to do The Good Place Today, which wrapped up its first season last week. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. We're also going to talk about the young pope, and we will touch briefly on... Oh, it's not going to be brief. On Homeland, but before we... Homeland, you did it to me again!

Before we do, let's do a quick in and out, the only piece and news that matters this weekend. Right, which I didn't know about. See, by the way, I just want to put this out here for the listeners. I think much like Letter from Taboo Island, I really like it when Chris just drops bombs on me when I arrive, which he did, but we weren't recording. I did not know this news had broken, the Star Wars news. Yeah, so they've decided on the...

They've decided. The title, the subtitle for the new Star Wars film, episode 8, is The Last Jedi. Now, where did you read this news? Was it in a real news or a fake newspaper? There was a guy outside my house. Cool. And he was like, I'm the last Jedi.

See, here's the thing about this. Let me talk you through it. And I was like you and McGregor. I love your work. Let me talk you through this. It's a double meaning. Yeah, I know. You get that?

I know. I've already written a blog post about this. Are you serious? Yeah. Since we started recording? I get up and I do P90X. I do CrossFit. And then I blog.

Yeah. And then I come in and I record with you. I like the image of you just sitting it in your home with a giant mega jug of creatine solution. Throwing truck tires. Just throwing truck tires writing a blog post and be like, I'm going to go, March with some women.

Are you guys marching again? I, yeah. Because Luke's the last Jedi. Or is he? Or is it, Kylo Red? Oh. No, it's, what about our leading lady? I'm just saying, there could be tons of them.

There could be many last Jedi's. Boy, that would be a real switcheroo. Do you really think, I mean, like, here's the thing. I'm in on this title. It's simple. It's direct. It evokes the most important, like, sort of, you know, storyline. of this, which is that this might be the last one finally.

No, but it's not because there's another one coming. And that's the problem with it, is that just in case, you know, they were like, why don't we make four or five more of these? There might need to be some future Jedi's. I feel like there will be. Do you think it's almost like Russian roulette among the cast where they're like, I don't want to be the last Jedi because that might mean I need to be in these movies for 21 years? Right.

Then they look at their bank accounts and they're like, okay, bet. I mean, the interesting thing to see. Jeremy Rennerface. Here's the interesting thing. As franchises move into year-round employment model, the reason why Marvel is not only working, but the reason why all those actors just keep working is because they basically have a home base in Atlanta. They're always running like one to three movies. They have writers there.

They have various actors just shuttling in and out. Yeah, sort of like FDR's Works Progress Theater. It's very beautiful thought. So I'm saying like it's not that big a deal for Paul Rudd in between his many other commitments. to be like, yeah, I'll just go do Ant Man for a week. Right. And it's the sketch. Right.

Whereas I think that with the Star Wars movies, it's early days. Because they have the new spine of the storyline, of which Last Jedi is among them. And then they have these sort of tangentially related spinoff things. And they're not in constant production yet. Sure. So I guess what I'm saying is John Boyega might be busy. That's true. He might be busy.

But probably not because Star Wars is very popular. Speaking of those Marvel movies. What can I tell you? Did they let Ryan Johnson announce this at least? Or was this? This was on deadline. I don't know. I mean, I think it was just like Star Wars officially announced it.

I don't think Ryan Johnson was like, I've been thinking really hard about this. I was reading deadline this morning. And a lot of news coming out of Sundance, not really news, but just like a lot of chat. I love the more this becomes an industry pod. And really good interview with our boy Jeremy Renner, who's in this movie called Wind River, directed by Taylor Sheridan. This is apparently the third film. in his unofficial America trilogy? Did somebody say that?

Did I just say that? Sicario and Heller Highwater. He wrote those, but he wrote and directed this. Elizabeth Olson plays a wet behind the ears FBI agent. Names Scarlet Witch? Is there an overlap? Jeremy Renner plays a game tracker in a small Wyoming town who helps her investigate a murder on a Native American reservation.

And they were talking about what it's like to work on a Marvel movie compared to Wind River. and they were just like, yeah, you know, they were basically like, you know, usually on a Marvel movie, there's like 400 extras and you spend most of your time acting against a green screen with a stud double and then maybe spend like five minutes on set.

Yeah. It was really, I mean, it was just really, and then, but Jeremy Runner said, it's all about problem solving. Big movie, small movie, it's all about problem solving. Is that what he said? You know what that sounds like? Yeah.

It sounds like how you flip a house. That's exactly what I'm saying. House flipping's all about problem solving. He's like, ah, I don't like this drop ceiling. That's a problem. I'm going to solve it. These sconces, get them out. This movie, so wait, so Jeremy Renner is a Native American.

No, no, he's just a game tracker. Oh, that's a game changer. Yeah. He's just a game tracker. As far as I know, yeah, I have not seen the film. The thing that I like about this, just a little, no, I've not seen the film either, by the way. I don't want to leave you in suspense. I just got back from Sundance this morning.

I went and came back. I like the idea. It did P90X. I just feel like if you gave, if you cast anyone else in this role, right? If you cast Adam Driver or you cast Joel Edgerton Joel Edgerton I feel like they would probably You know attempt to track some game

You know what I mean? Like they would go out, they would like kneel next to grass Like sniff things You mean like in training? I feel like it would get a little method Yeah not renter, it's problem solving No, it's just problem solving It's the same thing It's just like you go in and the foundations off by it inch, you just got to solve the problem Whether you are in search of a large bison or the perfect sconce

it's all the same thing. Okay, let's start talking a little bit about what we gather here today to talk about. Dearly Beloved. Which is the good place. NBC sitcom, Mike Shore, Parks and Rec, the office, right? You're just doing bullet points?

Yeah, just the bullet points. And it starts Kristen Bell about a woman who is not very good being sent to heaven. Now, we are going to be talking about the finale. So if you haven't watched it, you should. Yeah, let me say this.

And just rejoin us at a later date. We talked about the show briefly when it premiered, and then we fell unfortunately silent on the topic. I've enjoyed the entire season. It is a terrific first season. It has a hell of a finale, a really brilliantly done twist. The sort of thing that is hard to do these days, I think. If you don't want to hear about the twist, fast forward, wait till, like, just keep fast forwarding until you hear Chris trilling like a big game tracker. And then you can resume play.

Wait until you hear me sniffing the grass. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely just the grass. I recommend you watch the show. Okay, let's get into it. You go first. Because I want to hear how you felt about this first season. I am an easy mark for this show, full stop. I love Mike Scher's comedies. I love watching them develop. I've said this many times in the pot, I'll say it again. He gave me some of the best insight into how comedies work, which is how tricky they are and how it's problem solving. No, he's the one who said to me, and I talked to him about this when he was on my podcast, which is the one I don't do with you, just to get that look off your face. That basically, he, in a perfect world, he thinks anytime you get to make a comedy, you should make 10 episodes, throw them away and start airing them with the 11th, because it takes that long for the concept of gel, for the cast to gel, for the right. That was certainly the case with parks.

With parks, right. And I think he probably feels that the same way with the American office and many other single cameras that comes that we know and love. I think if you even watch things like 30 Rock, like the early ones, it's not the same show that it became, certainly. So I think that knowing that, he was way ahead of it. I mean, he thought about the show a lot. He planned it. He problem solved it.

He got a phenomenal cast. But even so, you watched the same growing paints happens. And it was interesting because this was a pretty unique show. It was an attempt to both add a little luster and originality and class back to NBC's comedy line up and certainly to it's Thursday night. Terrific cast. Ted Danson and Kristen Beller are the top liners, but William Jackson Harper

was tremendous as Chee-D. The woman who plays Tihani, whose name I'm blanking on because it's Monday morning and I haven't sniffed enough grass. It's a great cast, but he was also trying to push things forward. Parks and Rec, I do not think inappropriately

has been compared to the wire in the sense that it was all about change. That's what he wanted to do. In this, he attempted to do something that was tightly serialized. Every episode was a cliffhanger for the next episode. But yet still do the kind of warm world building that he's...

And it's high concept. I mean, it's set in an afterlife. The... The idea of this being a 10-episode sort of warm-up throws... I really like this show. I find that...

I found a little bit episode-to-episode. It was like a little repetitive in the experience of watching it. That I know that it felt very much like a whiteboard show where like there are questions about that they wanted to ask and answer not about television or characters on the show but about life and about like what it means to be a good person and whether or not um goodness is rooted in selflessness which is essentially what the last two two or three episodes are about but just as like a watching experience sometimes i got a little

bored of the repetitive nature of the like you know it's basically characters sitting in different rooms talking about morality. And ethics. Do you think that the twist, which we'll now talk about, put your experience watching the first 12 episodes in a different light? Absolutely. Because here's the thing. I think that when the show, first of all, NBC did not do the show any favors as unexpected,

I mean, not unexpectedly, because they never know how to treat good things. Right. So they ran like seven of them or six of them up until basically. They ran nine of them. Right. Up until the holidays. And the show got perfectly good ratings. Yeah.

I mean, for an NBC comedy, they got very good ratings. Then for the holidays and football and everything, they just went dark and then came back with basically two weeks or three weeks. I think they did. They ran the last two back to back. What do you think about, like, what are they going to do? Because I feel like most shows, network shows, disappear for the winter like that. Like they disappear for December and January. It's just ridiculous, though, because they basically built this show to run like a cable show.

Sure. You know, it's tightly serialized 13 episodes. You can run it. up until the holidays, if you do it right, you know, and then it'll come back in a year. And, you know, it was a very sneaky way to sort of be progressive about the way you make comedies in the cable and streaming era. And they even, they botched that. Yeah. Anyway, the thing is, you're watching it for 10 weeks, 11 weeks, and it works. You know, it is a high concept, but situational comedy in that these people are struggling to get better. And the irony of the

joke is that even heaven isn't perfect and some people have slipped in and can they stay and what it would mean to stay and how many times can you get Adam Scott to come back and be a douchebag because that's always a plus. In the finale, we learned that no, no, no. Hell is other people. Hell is other people as the great Betty Serviart once sang. I'm sure that was the only reference that people expected when we say hell is other people. They're in hell. They've been in hell the whole time. Ted Danson, not a bumbling angel, a sneaky devious devil. Yeah. Pretty big twist, pretty massive twist and a pretty bold embracing, a pretty bold embrace of what TV is now. And I was very impressed by that because I will say, Mike's your big thinker, big thinker about TV. You know,

even when he was making this comedy, I know he met with Damon Lindelof from Lost, but basically like, how do you do something this high concept? How do you, how do you do a mystery? show. And it's very possible that this show could have gone on in the version of it we thought that it was for quite some time. But he didn't. And I'm so impressed by that because just to use an example, recently in my other life trying to write for TV, I had an experience where I have been railing against the

sameness of TV as a critic for a bunch of years and saying you've got to think outside the box. You have to change things you can't. But then you got into the writer's room and you were like, we need a grizzled cop. Yeah. We need to like stare balefully at deer. you know, like I just want like meaningful animal interactions. Oh, I'm a fraud in a cell out. Believe me.

Guys, what if he turns to him and says, am I a bad person? Just blue skies pitch here, top of the head. We joke because that's what we do. But the truth is the idea that TV, that a successful TV show is a ecosystem that you build that can run forever is built into my DNA as much as it is everyone else. that the goal is to make something with enough story to just run and run and run. You don't get in the way of that. You don't mess it up.

You don't drop a big surprise and flip everything in the finale. And the conservatism runs deep. I'm saying even in creators and actors and critics and thinkers about TV, you shook it up. Yeah. He shook it up.

And I think it was extremely exciting and I've been thinking about the finale ever since I saw it. Yeah, you can feel in the last five minutes of the episode, of the final episode, how much all the characters it's not a twist in

there have been twists in the OA there have been twists in Westworld where either they're telegraphed or you feel betrayed by a sort of journey that you would go on

with the characters of the storyteller that reminds me the twist in this podcast when you liked taboo I was betrayed but this one was not telegraphed and also was very much

in service of all of a sudden all these characters who felt a little flat or maybe like that they were speaking, they were just in service of an idea, like a character was serving like a... Right, like these people wouldn't really be there.

A philosophy, yeah. But they're there to represent something in the world that's been built. Now all of a sudden, it all makes sense. Now, it's really quite a dice roll to say, we're going to spend six and a half hours or however much long it was and gamble on getting a second season

to wait until the 13th episode to be like, and now these people are all, they all make sense, sort of. Because for a while, it is almost like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of what the tone was like. But it was almost like this, like you were living inside of an IKEA catalog of like just like this perfect comforting experience

that was just basically like patting around ideas. Well, also remember, we had the super flaming hot take when the show debuted that like, that it seemed like a show for the Obama era. Yeah. Because it was, whereas Parks and Rec was a show about, you know, the struggle to do good works in a bureaucracy and a society that is stacked against it, this was a show that existed on literally on a higher plane. It was purely about just the notion

of goodness and it threatened, I thought, to sort of fritter away into immateriality. Like it almost, it's just a purely academic exercise. Yeah. And it wasn't that. It also allowed I think it was also tough because, you know, a lot of humor is really rooted in, it was tough because the humor was rooted in like a kind of like right down the middle pop cultural reference kind of space and the way that they now you like look back at all the jokes even differently is kind of interesting. I like the time when Tahani was showed Eleanor her favorite British comedy about the Cockney woman and the high class woman and she said it was quite a smash in Britain 16 seasons. That's almost 30 episodes.

A little inside baseball there. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just think it's interesting to note. We didn't see it when it was happening. But this fall, there definitely was a extremely high concept show that dealt with issues of humanity and morality, who we are and what we owe to each other that was completely a mystery box that had a ton of material for Reddit and was worth it and stuck the landing. And it was not Westworld. Yeah. It was this, man.

It was the good place. People are sent, you know, there's Will it get renewed? I think deadline, your favorite websites said, said, Something like, you know, Mike Schur is huddled with some writers. They're plotting the second season. They're going to pitch the studio. I have no inside knowledge of this. Mike himself has gone radio silent, letting the finale speak for itself.

But I would be shocked if there isn't a second season. I would be shocked with the talent involved and the commitment made to it. Also, if you consider the fact that the commitment for the first season was only 13 episodes, which I feel like maybe sneaky backdoor stuff would be maybe they gave it one season commitment, but broken into two. Sure. Essentially the same number of episodes. But something like this would just would thrive on Netflix

if they were going to pay to a dance and salary. I mean, there was a degree of... It actually, your Westworld comparison is apt because when they take the train to the medium place, it was actually as exciting as any departure from the sets in Westworld. You know what I mean? Because you felt like...

Any train-based departure? No, you just felt like you would spend so much time and so much effort sort of rooted in this one town and in these three sets. that to depart from there felt pretty significant. The lady in the medium place who loves cocaine was really funny. She's great. Okay, let's move on to Young Pope.

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Blue Apron, a better way to cook. Andy. Hey, man. I love the young Pope. Yes. I think that I, I wasn't soft selling it,

but I was letting you take the lead. You know what I mean? I was letting you, I was, what was it drafting you? You know what I mean? Like when you get right behind somebody? You were a wet behind the ears cop and I was a big game tracker.

And I was like, I got one. I got a big one. And you were like, I don't know if I should follow you out there. You dipped your hand into a pile of horse manure. You're like, it's fresh. I feel so warm in my hand. Sean Fennessey, my co-worker, our co-worker. He's your co-worker as well.

Recently, he came into my office as he's want to do wearing a full papal regalia. Yeah. And he just said, the young pope. He's born to it. Everybody thinks the young pope is just this, like, weird, surrealistic show. he's like it's an office comedy something like that I'm sorry Sean if I miss quoting you but it was basically

he's like it's all about the intrigue and the politics behind the scenes and I think in the third episode that becomes especially clear also I think the third episode is very very funny and not in a way where it's just like memes it's like actually funny and it reminds me the show has jokes

this show really reminds me of like early Scorsese it has like a sort of a reverence and dare I say it in irreverence that's what I said it right Oh, I think he said a reverence because it has both. It has, it's irreverent and reverent. And but especially visually, and it's not just like, oh, there's a kangaroo in the garden. But there's like actually like, like the credit sequence in this episode was hysterical.

So I was going to ask you about that because I, because I think we both watched the first two on HBO press site. Was this credit sequence on the other episodes? Because holy shit. No, credit sequence is different every week. Oh, because this one wasn't. Okay. I didn't know if this was like now the new credit sequence. No, I think they do a different credit sequence every week.

I don't care. I love it. Yeah. The music's beautiful in this. I love the, um, I think Keaton is like, we're not talking enough about Diet Keaton. You know, Diane Keaton, you know, we never have. We never have as a society. We're not talking about her ability to drive and kick with the pill. Yeah. Just really get into the paint and find the shooter. I love that. Um, Chris chess passes. Yeah. Uh, and Cromwell's great. It's just like, the, and I find, I find it to be the first time in a while that I've watched a show and just been kind of like, I have no

idea whatsoever what is coming next. Let's talk about, let's talk again about the faces that they cast, the Italian actors in the background, the guy who plays Gutierrez, who, um, it's an admirable place to stash the wet bar. I mean, I feel like if you had Jeremy Renner come on

just to like flip your papal cell. Yeah, he's like, I can make an in-wall bar if he's like, don't worry about that. That's fine. And I, can we in the moment here, just, just fact-check. the actor who plays Cardinal Voiello because... Sure.

I don't know the actor's name. I should. Oh, you want to look it up, you mean? I just mean while I vamp for a second. This dude, I could listen to him talk heavily accented English forever. He is so wonderful. And the thing is, this is how good Sorrentino is as a filmmaker. He hears the way he speaks English and he gives him more dialogue.

No one speaks more on the show than he does and not in his native language. And it's like musical. That's your boy, Sylvia. Silvio Orlando. Sylvia Orlando is killing it. Here's my thought about the show. We have spent a couple weeks post-election talking about the struggling to talk about

the role of art and artists. You know, this weekend, you and I were both out to March where a lot of other artists were, where actual artists were, and a lot of just ordinary human beings. And I think it's basically there's probably a fair amount of podcasters there as well. Probably a large number, disproportionate number of podcasters at the L.A. March.

I was actually at the podcasters march. What march did you go to? I have no idea. But there were a lot of hot takes floating around me. We've been talking about art primarily as reactive or responsive, how to respond. I think one thing that's truly amazing about art is the way that some people, whether by skill, prescience, connected to their ability or not, are essentially weather veins of the culture. I know exactly what you're just saying. You're absolutely right. And election week, the Tribe Cold Quest album came out. And we talked about how it felt like, in many ways, the first piece of post-Trump art. Because it was recorded well before him, but then during the rise. I mean, Fife has a line about him on there. And it sounded a different way. It resonated in a different way. And I think that Sorrentino has, you know, looked his finger, put it in the air and felt some crazy winds blowing,

whether they were blowing across Europe or whether he was paying attention to something else. or whether his muse just took him to the right place. Because the thing about this episode that really, I found particularly unsettling this weekend. I'm talking about the third episode. The fourth is airing tonight, Monday, is the idea of institutions being stronger than people. A lot of this episode was about how he was elected,

how our man Lenny got the job. And the idea being personal grievances and a larger belief in an entrenched system. And there are a few systems more entrenched than the papacy. It is a little bit more entrenched than the papacy. American representational government would survive and that in fact the person in the big chair

could be manipulated or be swayed by the vestments, by expectations, by people who've been there longer. And the truth is no. You give someone power. They have power. And everything that comes after that is, it's white knuckle time.

It's terrifying. It was a particularly chilling episode. You talk about prescience. It was a particularly chilling episode to watch in light of everything that had happened over the last three days. and I think that in real life and I think that the ideas that he gets at

that idea of mystery and absence presence and absence presence and absence and the idea that mystery is the key to basically holding people in your spell is to keep them guessing as to what it was that you wanted what it was that you meant you never let people get comfortable and yeah and not letting people get comfortable

and this idea that I mean a lot of the things things that he's doing in terms of like creating chaos. A lot of the things that people were like, like, we were hoping as a candidate you were like this. We were hoping you would be like this in power. And he was like, no, that was me as a cardinal. Now this is me as a pope.

Yeah. Pops don't, you know. Candidates for any office are essentially vessels to pour your own hope streams and expectations into. And that's what Boyello and that's what Spencer were sort of hoping. think greater than them. Yes. But are also somewhat cynical about that. Yes, but let's think about that. But are starting to, I feel like I'm trying to answer a test question.

No, no. What I mean is we're saying the same thing. Think about how Spencer, Cromwell's character, begins the episode, you know, furious, resentful. Drunk. Drunk, thank God. But on some level right, at least so far as what we know, he ends the episode kneeling and kissing his ring because he, he's, he, because he believes and Diane Keaton nudges him in this direction, they all do, that, well,

at a certain point, you have to be respectful of the office and the vows you took and the oaths you took, right? Oh, I took that to mean that Boyolo and he had agreed that they were going to need to stop him and that so he needed to get closer to him. Right, but the point being, well, I think the brilliance of the show is that it works two ways. Yeah. Regardless of his motives, he bowed. He kneeled before him, you know, he, he took that way. He took that way. one. And I think that that's what's truly scary, you know, is when you have people who are like, well, let's, let's quiet down and be respectful of the office. You know, this was this episode, this episode featured a press conference in which someone yelled at a room full of journalists.

It didn't take any questions. Yeah. I mean, that's where we are, right? I mean, we have a show in a world with a gaslighter in chief. And that's pretty terrifying and pretty fascinating to watch it play out here, mainly because just the way Sorrentino filmed it, whenever he filmed it, you know, in Venice, a year and a half ago or whatever he did. The journalists are like, what do we have, we, what do we do? We have been sitting in these chairs expecting people to give us answers. And so we expect them to give us answers. And when they don't, what do they do? There's just something I want to talk about that I think it would be better maybe for a later episode. But it is something about the self-awareness of the show where, you know, obviously he and Spencer have that fight about, you know, Spencer is basically identifying like you were,

you know, you never left the gates of that. Your little boy. Yeah, you're a little boy. You're a nine-year-old. and he's just like stop cycle analyzing me. And the degree to which like fictional characters, especially on television, are so acutely aware of their own building blocks. Do you know what I mean? Like they're always, they're seemingly always aware of like the Freudian motivations

that lie at their center. Excuse me, Arnold. Are you saying that they all have a tragic backstory? And that's key to their programming, their reveries, if you will? What if this is, I really hope that Westworld season two is just the young pope. and then we're just in the Vatican world.

Oh, it was the Holy See season. But I'll be interested to see how it plays. It'll be interesting to see whether or not that is literally the motivation or whether he spins into the, no, there is some sort of relationship between pious and God. Can we just also talk about how? Like what is driving this guy? You know, I think last year's example of this was maybe the year before was the years Here's just blur, friend.

As long as we just sit in front of these microphones. Oscar Isaac dancing and ex machina. We just want that, inject that into our art. You know, turn that into like HGH for television or movies. Sure. Just stick it in. Voiello opening his MacBook air and watching Maradona clips. There's a lot of Napoli stuff in this show.

It's really funny. It's just these little grace notes that make it something. extraordinary. Well, we talk a lot about prescience and we talk a lot about being a weather vein and it can work out really well in the case of the young Pope. And then it can feel a little bit, uh, like it's, it's all coming apart at the seams like in the case of Homeland. Oh, Homeland stays homeland. Why didn't anyone warn us? Is this, was this episode particularly, I can't, now I'm like, was this any worse than the first episode? Was I just sort of relieved to have it back? I don't even know like what, this was a really bad episode of Homeland.

I don't really have that much interest in continuing to watch it, not because it was deeply offensive. I just, I can't watch a dude have a seizure and a bodega for 10 weeks. It strikes too close to home. Beds die do or die, and he almost chose die. Yeah, yeah.

It does remind me the times I used to go in and buy tall boys to Cate and refer to you as my business manager. I don't mean, I just mean, if you were to spend half the episode on Quinn, please don't just be a bunch of dipshits about it. just be like, let's just let him like wander Brooklyn. Let me pull a Monsignor Spencer and try to psychoanalyze the show a little bit. Go for it.

The show, Homeland's flaws and faults have always been the same across six seasons. The larger one, which I think we should come back to, is it's broken because you can't have the events the first two seasons happen and then carry on any of these, pun intended, any of these characters as rational, reasonable people for four, five, six, seven more seasons. You just can't. So the show has done the thing that TV shows have. historically done network shows, you just kind of forget about it and you move forward. Yeah.

Which, respect, there's really no other way to do it. In terms of those characters and rehabilitating them, moving them forward. The deeper flaw, I think, is one that I also am a little bit sympathetic to, which is if you get a bunch of TV writers in a room, they don't want to sit and talk about plot. They don't want to talk about tricks.

Westworld aside. They don't want to talk about how we're going to pull a fast one on the audience or do, you know, flip, flip what everyone's expecting. They want to talk about character. Yeah. They want to talk about emotional motivation. They want to talk about grounding these people, uh, in some sort of emotional

truth. So they're not just lab rats running through the maze that they design. Do you think that's, because TV writers think that they have like a more higher calling. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. But I think most people who write feel that way too. Um, and, uh, you know, that's, that's how you get from like, you know,

gamers in sports pages to like the columns that we used to read where people have like one sentence paragraphs. Rather than just we're saying like, this is what happened, you're like, this is what happened meant. And this is what it means. The show's biggest flaw was in the second and third season being like, Brody isn't just this devious, crazy monster. Like, he and Kerry are really in love. And the show lost me probably forever when it went all in on that. This is a love story.

And they had this beautiful child together. You know, they were just bad timing. You know what I mean? It's like nodding hill or something. If only things had broken differently. We're back there. We are back there again with Carrie and Quinn, who the show decided loved each other last year because they were among the few people. They were the only people in the cast, regular cast, not eligible for AARP cards.

So that doesn't make any sense. But, okay, there are some people who definitely ship those characters. I've seen your tumblers, man. I believe it. That's right. Saren Gass couldn't keep us apart. I just fundamentally don't understand what anyone is doing on the show because, as we said, when we talked about the premiere, which we liked, Quinn is like, Carrie, go away.

And we're watching and we're like... Yeah, go away. Yeah, go away. That's a really good move. Go away. This episode of him being like resentful and bitter and then it ends with them watching him getting gassed like some sort of like porno film

that they're fetishizing for 10 minutes. And she's like, that really happened to you. And he's like, oh, bet, that's interesting. I really drooled and pissed myself. First of all, what did he think happen? She's like, these are the tiles that I used to find you when you were paralyzed. What kind of care were they giving him?

Were they like... I'm not even sure. I don't know anything. I don't understand how... I don't understand anything about that plot. And I also don't understand like, why were they like, we need to bring Max back? Look, the show... I also hate, like, have a kid or don't have a kid, but stop being like, can you come babysit

because most people wouldn't enjoy the idea of my child being in the house with a guy who doesn't shower and, like, listens to Alex Jones all day? P.S., who put the kid to sleep? Did Max just ether her, like, curious George? Max has like three jobs all of a sudden. Is he getting paid under the table for this? Max has never gotten. Max has done favors for Carrie since season one.

One more thing. Just go back to the prescient part. Like, yeah. It's interesting, you know, you could be predictive or you can be reactive. Homeland is somehow being both right now. Failing at both?

Well, I mean, we were, but we were praising it last week. You know, we were like, oh my God, what incredible, like, what incredible, like, foresight to have this. Female president? Well, they have the season be about a transition

and have it be about the war between the intelligence, community and the executive bridge. That's not the same sort of weather vaning. We're just being like they looked at when they were going to air and took advantage of it. Sure. That's smart. That's smart planning.

I don't mean to disparage that. But it could have been, it could have gone a lot differently. Absolutely. But, you know, I also think the one other thing that's dogged Homeland from the beginning because of the, because Howard Gordon and Alex Ganser, who created the show or adapted the show from the Israeli version, worked on 24. You know, the idea that this was somehow like, Slow Food 24 or like just a little bit fancier cable version of it.

I think they've resisted that. They've resisted that. They've wanted to be a prestige cable drama. Yeah. Here's the thing. I would be all in if they just were like, okay, we're 24 now. We're cable 24 where you can curse. Because what's dragging the show is this idea that somehow we're invested in the characters

and they're twisting relationships. I mean, I don't know how many times Claire Dane's has to sneer at Mandy Pitinkin. Like, how far have we gone from whatever that relationship was supposed to be when it's interesting? Well, I think that they basically set Saul and carry up as the replacement of, I mean, you said it's Quinn Carey. But that relationship at the center of the show needs to have a betrayal and trust tension. Yes. And so that's what while I find it sort of nonsensical, also not entirely clear what the big betrayal is here for her to be advising the president elect. I have a thought.

She's the most wildly irresponsible dangerous person. I can understand why the president elect would be like, I don't want anybody knowing that this fruit basket is telling me what to do. Here's the thing. Everyone remembers what she did, right? You know what I mean? You know, like, there's, one of the central things of this episode is Dar being like,

we never forget 9-11. It's like, yo, remember when your girl was like doing it with the dude who blew up Langley? Yeah, lots of cabin doing it sessions. Like, your girl had Yorkshire Gold Tea all-nighters. Yeah, yeah. With the man responsible for a worse attack. on America, arguably.

And then they're like, well, she shouldn't have the ear of the president. No shit. Yeah. Like, I really feel like the boldest move possible would be to just flip the perspective and just be like, Dar Dahl has some bars. Like that dude has a point. You know, for real. I would love a show that we've talked about this before.

I would love the Dar and Saul show. I like, I mean, Carrie as a character, they keep trying, but I don't know. It doesn't work. But also, we want, we do this every year. We fall for it. Because we want an American Lecarre show. We want an American. But now they are a bunch.

I mean, they're not American necessarily. But there are so many espionage shows now that Homeland doesn't have to take the weight of all of that. So it's judged up against some pretty stiff competition. Shouts to director Keith Gordon, though, again, because his, I'm about to have a seizure cam, it's pretty nice. It's pretty sweet. Look a lot like the driving along the roads in 20th century women cam. What I'm saying is I have definitely walked into bodegas and seen chem trails like that. That is not an unfamiliar.

I feel like I need a baking egg and cheese. I'm a bacon egg and cheese. And where are your baby wipes? Where are the baby wipes? Okay. Thursday, we're doing a mailbag. So if you have it already, hit us with questions at the watch pod on Twitter at the watchpod. We will also be talking about some other shows. We'll hit you up with the watch list today or tomorrow and let you know what shows we're going to be talking about on Thursday.

But it'll be largely driven by your questions. Question number one. Which of us is the last Jedi? I think I know. Wait till Thursday to find out. Talk to you then. You're the force be with you, Beret. E!