The Watch - Ep. 116: The Mailbag Episode

Episode Date: January 27, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald reveal ‘Who Won the Week’ (1:45) and read another letter from Taboo Island (8:45) before answering audience questions from the mailbag (16:22). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the Ringer.com and joining me on the other line. This John is totally out of pocket. It's Andy Greenwald. Hey, sorry, Chris. I know we're good to go. Usually 2 p.m. quick start time.

I just got to check my doomsday clock to make sure that it's in order. Oh, yeah, two minutes to midnight. My intro to you is in reference to a protest sign that was seen outside of Philadelphia City Hall. So shout out to Philly. I just assumed that, you know, I just assumed it was relevant every day. Yeah, I mean, you can just say it about anything. Andy Greenwald, this is The Watch Reup. It's our Thursday show.

We're going to be doing a couple things this week. Who won the week? We'll be looking at the Oscar nominees. We will also do a brief letter from Taboo Island, I promise. And then this is the mailbag episode. So we'll be answering questions from our listeners. Thank you guys so much for responding to us at the Watchpod on Twitter. Greenwald, you good? How are you feeling?

Oh, I'm always good. I feel terrific. Andy has been, like, in media blackout, like, two minutes before this started. I was like, hey, man, did you look at the news? Whoops. Andy, let's go into who won the week. Yeah, big week this week. Yeah. I continue to insist that the segment is, the segment is really like, didn't we all lose this week until we decide something else.

But this week was the Oscar nominations, Chris. And, you know, I think we talked about the Golden Globes a few weeks ago. We were saying that unlike many years, it seemed like this year was pretty much a foregone conclusion in terms of the favorites. There didn't seem to be that many, that much competition in the major categories. I still think that to be true, but you look down the list. I think that the Oscars got it mostly right. And to me, though, the thing that really stood out is not La La Land having more nominations than what? Like Ben Hur.

It's high Titanic, I think. It did Tide Titanic. Two of the great films of our time, La La Land and Titanic. Perfect for these times, Chris. But obviously, Damien Chazelle is going to win many weeks going forward. La La Land is going to win Best Picture. I have no question about that. So I kind of wanted to put the spotlight on a different film.

Yeah. That actually, it surprised me. Chris, the film, Arrival, got eight nominations. Yes. And I was very surprised by this. And I realized we had never actually talked about this film, which I know is one of your favorites. And I watched not on an airplane. but on a similar three months later schedule.

Yeah, Arrival sort of satisfied the smart sci-fi role of the Oscars this year, like Martian and Gravity did in the past. It's become almost an annual event where like a cerebral but very entertaining science fiction movie captures the imagination. I didn't think Arrival had been doing that well, but it's being re-released in theaters now, and it's going to break 100 million, which is pretty good for a sort of artie, philosophical,

you know, largely intellectually challenging emotional experience. I'm happy about it. I think that you would say even before the nominations came out that this was considered a hit or a win. I feel like the studio was pleased

with the money, it got back on it. I mean, in today, this is maybe, you know, it's the jumbo shrimp thing. It's the damning with faint praise, but this is a non, I mean, it comes from, dare I say, at pre-existing IP,

There is a relatively obscure short story. Yeah, but this is not a franchise. This is not based on a comic book or a TV show. This is not, it does not star children. It is in fact about the opposite in many ways. It stars adult actors and is beautifully, beautifully directed by Denis Villeneuve. And it's, it worked, you know. I was very impressed.

And I'm trying to parse my own reaction to it. We didn't talk about it. I really, really admired the movie. I really loved part. parts of it, but I feel very kind of warm and fuzzy and protective towards it, maybe because it was so big-hearted in its art and its ambition, if that makes sense. Yeah, we do so much diagnostic work on all these movies and television shows and stories, and we ask for such things, you know, we want to be taken seriously. We don't want to

be, our intelligence to be insulted. We want originality, and we want people to make brave choices and cast good actors. And I think when a lot of those boxes get checked, it's, it's easy to become very defensive about it, even if it does have some issues. I think we've talked about, may have talked about this before, maybe I talked about this was fantasy, but I've seen a rival twice, and the second time actually was a

much better experience. Because once you understand the sort of mechanics of the plot without giving anything away, it takes on an entirely different feeling. You know, if you know what you're watching, there's like elements of tragedy and elements of

hopefulness in places that you didn't quite understand. before. I just think also it is, it's unquestionably the most beautiful, beautifully directed film of the year, the most, Bradford Young, incredible cinematography. Bradford, who is deservedly nominated. And you just think about certain moments, you know, the moment when they fly upwards and sideways, you know, that's the, it's not a complicated idea, this idea of them going into the ship and their gravity and orientation being flipped around. but it's beautiful. It's very simple and very beautiful and Kubrickian.

What did you think about the moment when Jeremy Renner gets up into the spaceship for the first time? And he's just like, I love the open floor plan you guys are working with. I wouldn't change a thing. I think I just want to go for sort of more of a Taos, New Mexico, Opry ski. He's like, Costello, am I reading you right? I'm really feeling a mid-century modern aesthetic that you want here. Now, I know you want a chair with seven legs, and that's a little bit tricky.

But I think he could work with it. Look, it's an ambitious movie, and it's a movie that succeeds in the difficult climate for ambitious movies. And I think that alone is pretty impressive. I think so basically I think Tony Villeneuve won the week because this was his movie. He's nominated. I don't mean to rain on his parade during his week. I don't think a rival is going to win any awards. I wish it did, but it's very nice that it got nominated.

And I think it's worth noting. Like I think people hopefully will use this moment to check out his other movies. Everyone knows we love Sicario. But especially in this sort of inflection point in his career, where he's got the new Blade Runner coming next year, and then there were all these reports that he was going to do Dune next. And I find myself sort of hoping he does not do that. Yeah.

He's one of the more, I was very sort of, for as much as I love Sicario, I was glad that he's not making the second film. That's actually going to be directed, I believe, by the guy who directed the Gomorra series. And, you know, he's doing Blade Runner. I think Blade Runner looks mind-blowing. Dune is a very attractive, you know, story. It has been to other filmmakers before. I mean, David Lynch famously grappled with it.

I hope that Villeneuve continues to make, you know, his own kind of movies, his own original kind of movies. And I think he can make pretty much anything he wants. He's a really dazzling filmmaker. And just any other, any other Oscar things? We're going to be talking about the Oscars a lot more as we get to. it. I mean, I was really psyched to see The Lobster get a screenplay nomination. I was surprised Annette Benning was not nominated for 20th century women, a movie I did not love, but really

admired and liked. Yeah, I would just say I was very, very happy that Michael Shannon got nominated. That's a, he gives an awesome performance in Nocturnal Animals. Can I just say that for some reason, I remain on some press lists. And that day I got all these emails that was like, official statement, Ruth Nega. It was just like, I'm like, okay. And I clicked on it. And, you know, she was just basically like, boy, this was a great day. I am so honored. And then it was like official statement, Michael Shannon. And it was, I opened it up and it's all in bold. And essentially it was just like, fuck yeah. I would follow Tom Ford anywhere. Yeah. Okay. So I was into that. So arrival at Denny Villeneuve win the week. Let's move on to our second segment here.

And that is a letter from Taboo Island. Dear Andy, I know you haven't been watching Taboo. That's okay. That's what I'm here for. I take quill to parchment. to tell you some of the highlights from this last episode of Tabby, the third episode. We opened up this week

was really exciting. I always really appreciate anytime anyone can have surgery performed on them while they are not under anesthetic. I feel like it's a real test of the man. Doug Stamper doing waking stitches

on Tom Hardy while they have a conversation about the trade of tea from China, which I can't tell if it's a metaphor or not. Wait, can I, I got to ask you something. I don't mean to put you on this spot, but can you in any way on this podcast approximate the guttural noises that Tom Hardy made while he was being operated on? Hardy does this like this shake with his hand when it when obviously Doug Stamper is like scraping bone.

He does like a, to signify that, he shakes his arm a lot. It's pretty intense. Just, you know, as far as like what's going on behind the scenes and the palaces and seats of power, the guy who works for the king, I don't know if I talked about him last week. His name was Coop. And he went and saw Jonathan Price over East India. And he pulls out like this little, like, it looks like he's pulling out a tin of dip. But he definitely like just blows a bag right in front of Jonathan Price.

Do you know if that was a thing that guys used to do? He used to snort tobacco or something. Like anybody who's into 19th century whatever, let me know. I assume it was snuff. Snuff was the thing. Okay. And they just would take a sniff of it. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, they would snuff it right up there and they'd feel all the feelings, you know, and then they'd really, they'd want to listen to Night Ranger songs. They'd want to listen to Night Ranger songs really loudly and they'd never want to leave this sitting room. I think it's pretty, it's pretty on the, so you want me to explain how snuff works? Are you, what is the product? Is it Coca-leaf? Is it tobacco? What is, all right, push a tea? What is the product?

What are the Pyrax visions of taboo? Do you know how much weight we could move through Newport News if we could just get... Snuff is tobacco. It is a tobacco product. Okay, great. That is insufflated. You know, there are some other things going on. Delaney's dad had a wife.

I don't know if I mentioned her. She's acting in a Shakespeare play in London. Turns out she owns half of whatever Delaney owns, or at least according to the court. Wait, wait, wait. Your girl owns half of Vancouver Island? She does. She's going to open up a great artisanal hot dog stand. Wow.

So she's come into play, and because of that, Delaney feels the need to protect her because there are so many shadowy agents after both of them. The big, big, big highlights, though, come in the last 15 minutes, man, because that's when we get to the real taboo of what taboo is tabooing. And, of course, that's Delaney and his sister who break conventional norms and are very close with one another. and you'd think that that would be, you know, a taboo. And it is.

That's the thing. But Zulfa's husband, Una Chaplin, plays character Zilfa, her husband goes and visits Delaney. And he's like, you know, I write insurance claim. I got underwrite insurance. And Delaney's like, cool, cool. And he's like, want me to insure your load. And Delaney's like, I'm good. And he's like, by the way, it turns me on that my wife slept with you.

Huh. Then he goes home and he gets mad at her because she's not pregnant. And then someone sets up, tries to set up Lorna and tries to kill her, but Delaney stops them. So, Letter from Tabu, Ireland. That's a twist. So he is kind of the original cuck. Is that what you're saying? I guess so.

He also brings up for the first time since, I think it was in Game of Thrones, obviously, the subject of moonblood, which I was really excited about that that became a repeat thing. Like the way I describe it makes it sound maybe not. Maybe it's not Andy's bag. I do actually think taboo is an excellent show. It's a rich text. You know, like I feel like moonblood is not something oft discussed and prestige television. It's about time. It's about just about time we like, you know, rip off the Band-Aid and just we're honest about it.

Seriously. Especially in sort of flowery prose while snorting tobacco. This sounds great, man. You know, I'm beginning to really question my decision making. Really, really question it. You'll catch up with it one day. You're just waiting for there to be a lot to watch it once. Probably, that's your thing.

Yeah. Oh, you can't just have one little bit. It's like a pringle. You know, I need all the taboos. So then I can really, really, really experience it. I appreciate it. You're doing a service. You're doing a service.

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Now, Zach, I know that there were a couple of, there were some questions that were repeatedly asked. So we wanted to knock those out first if we could, right? So these were questions that lots of you guys had for us. So, Zach, hit us up. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys got a lot of Philly love, right?

There's a lot of people who were asking for food recommendations, bar recommendations, stories about your time in Philly. please just talk about Embed for hours on end and review Always Sunny in Philadelphia. So I figure we'll come back and do that as like a bonus episode, like an all-filly bonus episode. So that anybody from, you know, like Northern New Jersey and above or Delaware and below and anywhere west of Harris Barrett?

It could just not listen. Right. But we could do that. We could do a TripAdvisor episode? Could I just say that every episode we've ever done for the last five years is essentially a Philly episode. I don't feel like that's overstating it. No, I know.

We should get more specific. But we should do, we could do like city-specific episodes. I have to say that one of the best things about this podcast, aside from the fact that I get to do it with Andy, is that it does actually make me feel more connected to Philadelphia because we talk about it so much. You know, I haven't lived there. It's a long time.

But, you know, I just went. It's the best. Yeah, there was a lot of Philly fan engagement. I'll say that. That's great. Okay, what else? The other thing, a lot of pleas for you guys to watch Limit Snicket series of unfortunate events on Netflix.

So I figure you guys got to watch that and we'll come back to it. Greenwald, you go first. I'm going to say a hard no on that. A hard no. It's interesting. I'm going to say a hard no. The gig I'm currently doing other than the one that I'm doing with you guys right now, I've been working with some younger folks, some of these millennials.

This is a totemic and iconic piece of IP for them. They are psyched about this. And that's wonderful for them. But this is, Chris, this isn't us. This isn't our thing. This is in our bed. We don't know from this. I don't feel qualified to talk about this.

This feels like your shit if you are between the ages of 15 and 25. And I don't want to old man it. I don't want to come bring my walking stick and just shake it at the heavens. But I'm more or less entirely on Team Greenwald here. Just because I'm an old man. And just I didn't read these books. I didn't know that this was a thing. Like people will say these words to me and I'm just like, who, is there somebody behind me?

Like I don't know what Lemony Snickett even is. And I'm sure it's real clever, but unless you told me there was a tense scene set at the Tijuana San Diego border crossing that involved dogs. Let me see it. I'm serious, like with skull tattoos in the back of their necks. Look, if there's a scene in an episode where a dude keeps a handgun like low in his lap in a Toyota Tercell and then like clutches it and unclutches it nervously, I'll watch it. Just tell me if that scene happens and I'll watch. Maybe season two. All right.

What's the next question, Zach? What's up with the book club, guys? This is a good question. Me and Andy actually did settle on a title that we've both just recently read, and we think it would be a cool one because it's actually a series. Andy, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think that Zoo Station by David Downing, it's a series about a journalist living in Berlin right before World War II named John Russell. It has elements of Alan First and John LeCarray, some of our favorite espionage and spywriters.

It is incredibly evocative. The first book is awesome. It's a pretty easy read. It's just about life under creeping totalitarianism. And yeah, I mean, Andy introduced to me to it, and it's fantastic. Yeah, so maybe, so we've both read that. So maybe we'll give people a couple weeks. You can get it on your Kindle.

It's a pretty, it is a pretty fast read. It's a very enjoyable read. Zoo Station, David Downing. We will talk about it in the month of February. Word. Yeah. Cool. We'll circle it back.

You guys got to tell the Beranski story. People want to know. All you, Andy. I kind of like the mystery here, especially because Chris just admitted off air that he doesn't remember this at all. He has literally no memory of where this came from. Like, I think it was probably a year into doing the show.

And there was an episode, I think there were a couple of these early on in our run, when you would, much like you do with taboo, an equally outstanding show, you would try to like turn me around on the good wife because you were like, you were deep in those Margulies streets. Yeah. And you would, and, you know, you were describing an episode that was particularly good. And you were like, and you know, and Christine Baran, What a good job. She does. She's always terrific. I was like, all right,

all right, Broadway, Danny Rose. Like, of course she does a great job. She's Christine Boranski. And at some point, there was also, I think we were praising her chunky jewelry moves. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She always, she basically wore like the hollowed out inside of crystals that used to be able to buy it the sharper image, like around her neck. So I was a fan of her aesthetic and I'm a fan of her doing good work and it just felt like a thing to shout at the end there was also an iconic like freight like just a candid shot of christine branski i think like on the six train that was like on the internet for a minute where it was like just look at her reading

the times and looking like a queen on the six and just be like i'm going to work so it's like she's a legend patron saint of our podcast and also if i were being really honest here which i think we owe it to our list listeners, it always felt to me that it was unfair that you got to yell something and I didn't. And I really, I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan of the open face sandwich or the tartine. I feel like we need to have a nice bookend. So here we are. There you go. All right. So getting to some of the other big questions, you got a lot of versions of this, but I'll stick with Scott's. Besides Star Wars and Legion, what movies and TV shows are you most excited about in 2017? This is a great question, Scott. Yeah. Chris, why don't you

just talk about how excited you are for Legion? Look. I think you should just really just open up a lane. My thing about X-Men is like there's too many X-Men and X-Men. We got to get them out. No, I'm of course I'm excited for Legion, man. You kidding me? I'm just messing with you. I'm just messing with you. I'm just messing with you. I'm excited. But besides Star Wars and Legion, what movies and TV shows, are we both excited for? Okay, so my first movie is going to be Alien Covenant, which I think is not on like Taboo Island in the sense that like I know that there are probably diminishing returns in this series and I know that I got very extremely hyped up for Prometheus but and it was not as good as I hoped although it didn't wind up being very

very like I think it provoked a lot of thought but Alien Covenant the last the most recent installment in the alien series is directed by Ridley Scott returns Michael Fastbender Catherine Waterson Amy Simets who is somehow in an alien movie that is awesome Danny McBride, just like an incredible cast. Is he Franco in it? Franco's in it. Yeah, I just have like a lot of hopes for Alien Covenant. The first trailer looks like it's pretty much straight horror.

Like it looks like a return to the more don't go down that hallway roots of the series in Alien. I'm also actually pretty into the lore surrounding Alien franchise. And I'm very curious about how they're going to get it to connect to. to the larger story eventually. You love lore. You have always loved lore. Can I just ask you? I am sorry.

I will see this movie. This has also got Damien Bashir and Billy Crutup and Carmen of Jogo. This is, and Jesse Smolett. But I have to say, I would love it if you could just, right now in public, guarantee that I can watch it under the same circumstances I watch Prometheus, which was just devastatingly hung over after a Grantland party.

in the third row at the arc light with you and Sean Fennessee. I think I wore my sunglasses through the movie and it was not a 3D experience. Also, I think it was 3D, but were you grossed out by the last one? Because I think this next one's

going to be even more intense. Was I grossed out about it? I thought it was a gross waste of Idris Elda's time. Is that what you mean? The emotion scenes pretty rough. That was an intense. It was an intense movie,

but I enjoyed it. I think, you know, I, my favorite part of the movie was Fastbender playing basketball. Yeah, and watching Florence Arabia. Andy,

what other movies, like, are there any others that you have, like, do you just want to name the names of that you're excited for?

Okay, here are four movies I'm psyched for, and we'll go quick. I mentioned the lobster got nominated for an Oscar. Your man, Jorgos Lantimos's new movie.

It's called the killing of a sacred deer in the stars Colin Farrell, so obviously I've already been on Fandango and bought 100 tickets. Armando Ionucci, who made Veep

in the thick of it has a new movie called The Death of Stalin. I guess in the hierarchy of cinematic deaths, I would put Sacred Deer first, Stalin second. You know how we have this theory on this podcast about how the movie short-term 12 was like the secret text that defined a decade of movie making? The dude who made that movie, Destin Kretton, has finally made another movie. And it's an adaptation of the book The Glass Castle. And it also stars Brie Larson, but it also has Naomi Watts and Woody Harrell.

I think that dude is a filmmaker to watch, and that's kind of exciting. And I would throw one other one on there. What about Annihilation, though? Yeah, man, Alex Garland's Annihilation. I had to mention it because when we had a book club mentioned, we had sort of flirted with having Jeff Vandermeer's Southern Reach trilogy as our book club pick, because we both read his book Annihilation, and Annihilation is a super creepy, fun, interesting read.

And then I spent six months struggling to the other two books in the trilogy, and I did not want to talk about it anymore after those other two books. This is going to be one of those things, I think, where the movie is going to be even better in the book. Alex Garland's first movie since Ex Machina. We have Natalie Portman, Tessa Thompson,

trying to just, just, just, just, just, silkwood shower the stink of Westworld off of herself. Jennifer Jason Lee, Gina Rodriguez, it's great cast. Come on. This is the movie. Last couple of movies I'm really interested in Logan Lucky,

which is Stephen Soderberg's return to feature films. It's a NASCAR heist film starring Channing Tatum and Adam Driver and Daniel Craig, who apparently bleached blondeed, like went bleached blonde for this. And I'm also really excited for Paul Thomas Anderson's yet to be titled, maybe not even released in 17, but hopefully 1950 set in the fashion world of England, starring Daniel Day Lewis. And I am also psyched for Molly's game, which is Aaron Sorkin's movie with Jessica Chastain and

Idris Elba about the underground poker world of Los Angeles. Is that movie an adaptation of Aaron Sorkin's emails to Amy Pascal at Sony about making that movie? You know what? He could probably do that and he would still make a cool movie. I'm also really looking forward to Free Fire, which is Ben Wheatley's shoot-em-up movie with Brie Larson. That's his follow-up to high-rise. Yeah, really excited. TV shows that we are looking forward to.

We'll try to get through these kind of fast. Andy, go ahead. Well, I already said my number one-one, which is Twin Peaks coming May 21st. My birthday weekend, the gift to me, my favorite show of all time coming back. I'm psyched for the leftovers returning because the more I think about that second season, the more it kind of stays in my head and fucks with me. And also the new trailer had a horse in it.

So you know how I feel about that. The Deuce is coming. Maybe you want to talk about that. Pete Holmes' comedy on HBO guys crashing, which debuts next month, so we'll talk about it soon. I'm really enjoying watching it. But also, dude, top of the lake too! I know, man.

A show that definitely did not need a second season, but it was my favorite show of 2013. I'm psyched. I'm really looking forward to Godless, which is Steven Soderberg and Scott Frank's show set in a New Mexico mining town with Michelle Dockery and Jeff Daniels and Jack O'Connell. And that sounds like basically like a deadwood redux. I'm really excited for that. I think that my next thing, this is sort of nebulous, but there are a lot of other shows. I can't wait for the deuce.

It's Times Square. Seediness, George Pelicanos and David Simon and Megan Abbott and all these great writers working on that Richard Price. But I would say that I am also excited for. for like Netflix show X or at least the, I basically like the experience of being surprised by something that comes out of nowhere that you didn't expect and is like, did you know that the show was on and it's awesome? You know, like whether,

and that happened a bunch of times last year. So I'm really looking forward to the, whatever surprises that Pete TV throws at us in so much as like, we just don't even know it's coming. Yeah, it's a good pick. Thanks, man. They were filming the deuce a block away from my Bushwick apartment. Yeah.

I met Black Thought. James Franco was milling about. Yeah. There you go. New York Stories and Zach. I love it. What's the next one? All right. So Secret Buckets wants to know. Andy mentioned Westworld earlier. So Westworld was spoiled by the internet, Reddit, and your podcast, how do we follow shows without getting too far? This is a pretty good question. I mean, I think that this is going to be

the conundrum for the modern television watcher going forward. You basically can't really look at the internet and see the OA without knowing what happens in the OA. It goes across the board for a lot of different shows, I would, I guess I would flip that for myself and say, um, how do you watch television without the internet right now? Is Westworld as fun and experience if you don't have the theories? Is the OA is interesting if you don't have people probing what X, Y, and Z about it means? How do you feel in about this, Andy? Because you're, you're kind of like taking a little bit of a step back from reading about stuff all day long. Is it improving your appreciation of pop culture? Yeah. I mean, if you want to use the OA example and, um, people,

had warned me that something crazy was going to happen and actually being semi-spoiled about it probably made me more okay with it because when I finally got to episode five and the thing happened, I was like, oh, is that all? You know, because hearing the way people talk about it and, you know, we are guilty of it too. Like when you're commenting on something, you're obviously going to amplify your thoughts or amplify your opinions even more just to have the conversation or make it more fun. It didn't bother me. I actually appreciated being able to watch the OA at my own pace and then just sort of find what I liked in it and just try to push past the parts that I didn't. To me, the question, like, it's such a golden age, not for television itself, but for television

watching right now. You have almost unlimited choices. There is a show for every taste, for every mood, for every moment, for every night of the week, certainly. And I just don't see how that's a bad thing. You can choose to engage with the internet. You can choose to take a half step from the internet. You can choose to watch things along with people or watch them completely solitary, solitarily on your own. To me, the question is almost more interesting from a creator perspective, which is to say that, you know,

there was creeping blockbusterism in TV where in order to get a show greenlit or to cut through the clutter, there was an emphasis placed on what's the twist, what's the act out, what's the, what are we, what is the guys where are we of this pilot? Yeah, right. And it's funny that we're in a moment

where this is us, which is in many ways is the most mainstream hit the TV has manufactured in quite some time that we're talking about the NBC family show. Even that was built around a jaw-dropping twist in the pilot. And so I think the further you go down that rabbit hole, the further way you get from what people actually really like about TV as opposed to movies, which is some feeling of consistency and warmth and engagement with the characters.

So I feel like the best thing to think about going forward is to try to seek out as a viewer, yes, but also for people who are making shows to make a show that's still real. remembers those things first. I mean, this sounds like very white-bred pedestrian advice, but like make the show about your characters. And then if crazy things happen to them, that's great. If people get spoiled on them, too bad. The point is they'll keep watching regardless if they care about the things they should have been caring about in the first place. And that's the test Westworld failed. I was kind of thinking about this the other day with, you remember who is the dude who did Lone Star and Awake? Oh, oh, yeah, Kyle Killen. He was kind of like five years

ahead of his time. Like if those shows had come on now, I think they would have been much bigger deals. Because they both had sort of like kind of very intricate narrative premises within the shows, but then, you know, we're just trying to be like a normal week-to-week show on top of it. By the way, I think Kyle Killen was the first guest on the Andy Greenwald podcast, I believe. A nice guy and basically exactly right, like bad luck and bad timing, because he was dedicated to the idea of making cable-like shows in terms of their ambition, in terms of their twists and trying to do them in a network, a broadcast network box. and it didn't work.

And I think that if he was doing those things now on networks, you might see networks willing to cater to the material rather than trying to cater to the format, right? You might see him, you might see a wake more explicitly promoted as an event series. And it's like a 10 episode thing rather than like, how we're going to make this into, like let's just worry about it later.

It's worth noting that he now has retreated to cable where he probably should have been all along. I think he's making a show for AMC. Oh, interesting. Okay. But it's an interesting moment because, you know, look at it. Everyone's paying attention to this as us.

It's going to get nominated for, I think, an Emmy. It has a chance to win an Emmy. Got a two-season renewal. But if you look at NBC, the rest of NBC is the continuing adventures of Dick Wolf making money off of Chicago. In Chicago's public works, right? The least talked about shows and just low-key, kind of the most successful shows, and single-handedly save the network. So people are still watching the same old TV, and we're sort of having these debates over in the margins.

What's the next one? Well, on that note, Bryce wants to know what is the most overrated show that tons of people people watch and like, but for reasons you don't quite understand. This is tough because I don't really feel like taking a pot shot at stuff that people, like, popular shows. I think they're kind of self-evident while, why they're popular. It's almost easier to be like this critical darling is actually not that good. But, um, Eddie, I don't, what's your answer for this? I'm curious whether you had the same role here. Um, you know, I, I feel like, you know, obviously I think Westworld is, is, is overrated.

I think that House of Cards is wildly overrated or at least praise for the wrong things. I don't think House of Cards gets praise anymore, though. That doesn't matter. Well, that's interesting. Things sort of find their level. I mean, you know, I think some people still were trying to make the argument that the affair was really good. I would beg to differ. I think Julia and Amanda are running over right now.

Look, I think the other thing about long-running shows find their level. You know, it's very hard for something to be considered great and then sort of maintain everyone saying it's great as more and more time comes. You know, it's like it's like in sports. Like when someone takes the court for the first time and does things people haven't seen and can score a lot and they're like, oh, I figured it out. I figured out your moves. You know, I know how to defend you. Yeah, we get a little tape on the person. You get a little tape, exactly.

So, yeah, I don't really have an answer because it's not like either of us are taking shots at like golden gooses. You know, it's not like we were like a breaking bad to the whole way. I'm not going to be like, oh, Kevin can wait sucks. It's like, you know. Shout-outs to Big Bang Theory. I actually don't even, I mean, like, there was a time where I didn't even mind it. It being in its 10th year, I think, is like a sort of tacit agreement on the cast and the producers and the audience that, like, let's just keep making this for the sake of making it.

But the conversation about TV is really stratified, you know, like the people who, the people who put NCIS, you know, 20 million people who watch NCIS every week, I don't know any of them who are out there being like, you know, and it's far superior to top of the, It's just not a conversation that's even happening. So what's the next one, Zach? John Flynn wants to know what show would you bring back and continue if you were able to? I know Andy's answer to this. Yeah, this is the most answered question by me.

I would bring back Terriers, man. I love Terriers on FX. You should watch it on Netflix. But I will say now what I say every time, things should end. It's okay. I wish there was more Terriers, but it's a pretty perfect season of TV that ends in a pretty appropriate place. So it's also hard to even answer this question in a time when literally everything is coming back. And so it doesn't really seem like a fantasy exercise anymore.

Yeah, I know. It's like I would, if you would ask me this question, like, you know, I don't even remember when the reboot came out. But, you know, there's tons of stuff from the 80s and early 90s that I think could be tweaked like V or even Miami Vice would be an interesting show. There was a very little scene show on NBC that was all. on around the time that Homicide Life on the Street that was on called Unsub, which was a really freaky way out there. It was like a special FBI unit who had like a series of, you know, psychics and empaths or whatever who were trying to. What was it called? Unsub. And it was, it was just like a really, why it didn't succeed. Yeah, it was very dark. But I thought that

would be successful. The show that I would like to see come back, even though we are not quite in the dateline it needs to be to make sense with the title, is, Millennium, which was the sort of, it was on, it was like, was it was an X-Files spin-off? It was an X-Files, yeah, it was, yeah, they did like a backdoor pilot within the X-Files for it. And it was basically about a guy who was sort of this, like Lance, Lance Horkson plays this legendary FBI investigator who specializes in apocalyptic cases, people and movements that are trying to bring about or anticipate the end of the world. And I just feel like that would make a lot of sense right now.

And I would love to see that come back. Can I? I would too. I would like to see a comeback not from Chris Carter and the Exfels team. But maybe put like Brian Fuller or someone else on it and see what they can do with it. Quick, quick thing, quick Googling here. Unsub was a television show at NBC. Chris, this show ran for two months in early 1989.

Wow. I cannot believe you just reached into your bag of holding and pulled this out. It starred David's Soul and M. Emmett Walsh. Yes, Eminemet Walsh. He was the cop. I remember. Yes. Chris, February 3rd to April 14th, 1989. You were 11 years old. What the hell? Do you want to tell us the story of your infatuation with this eight episode long series?

I used to have like a very, like I would basically go to bed at like 10, I think. And I used, but I used to like creep back out onto the landing that went downstairs, you know, to the stairs down to my, my parents living room. and I would watch a little bit of the 10 p.m. show that they were watching. I think they knew. But that's where I would see like either LA law or Miami Vice or any of the 10 o'clock shows from around then. And I must have just been like, what the fuck is unsub? This dude is like communicating with dead people. I don't know.

Can I just say, how creepy would it have been if your parents knew that there was a small presence lurking in the top of the steps watching television but didn't know it was their son? More creepy as if one of there had never been a show called Unsub, and I just made that up. All right, Zach, what do you got, that? Just last thing, last thing, Zach. The pilot of Unsub, the name of the episode, was my new nickname for Chris, which is White Bone Demon. Great job, White Bone Demon. All right, so Noah wants to know, if you could give one actor, writer, a director, a blank check from HBO just to make whatever, who would it be?

My joke answer is Martin Scorsese. Didn't they do that already? Yes. They cannot stop doing it. Boy, this is a tough one that I should have prepared for. I mean, honestly, I would have said Palo Sorrentino, but then he made the young Pope and made the world good again. You kind of want to go in that direction, right?

Like, one of my go-toes for questions like this was always, like, to think in the indie world, because there were people who's just point of view I kind of liked and always wanted to see more movies by them, and they didn't make them any movies. you know, people like Jim Jarmish or Nicole Hollifsiener, who I still think I wish would make a TV show. But honestly, seeing things like the Young Pope and starting to think about TV as a directorial medium,

in addition to just a writer's medium, makes me think that it should go to someone who is more visually ambitious, right? I mean, who fits that bill of, I was going to say, contemporary filmmakers, you know, they don't have to be young. I mean, I'm excited that David Lynch just made another 19-hour movie for showtime. Yeah, and if that's the case of David Lynch, just going to make a 19-hour movie that I would be interested in seeing like what Kelly

Riker could make for HBO or what uh I mean HBO backing up the money truck I don't you know like that's not even a thing anymore because like Amazon and Netflix literally like are like one day away from like giving Hal Hartley a 10 million dollar deal or something so I just think it it's almost at this point like it's really up to the people who make make content probably to go to them but but I think my the thing that I would say that caveat is that I would want to see if I would want to see a project like this from someone who wanted to make a TV show. And what I mean is who didn't just want to get bankrolled to make a movie.

Like another question that we got, I don't know if you had it on your list to ASAC, but our man Shimmie Krumholtz, list of quality handle, asked us, why is the Cohen Brothers coming to TV, not bigger news? And my answer is they're not really coming to TV. I think they're just making a movie and putting it on TV. Yeah, they're making a two-part Western that they're going to show. And you know what? I'm all for it because I hope that.

I hope that all the stuff that is not, and we're seeing it more and more and more and more. And it was funny, we've been doing a lot of Oscar stuff over at The Ringer, so you're inevitably looking at different directors to careers and like Catherine Bigelow. And she's finally got something coming out this year. I was looking at Cassie Lemons who did talk to me back in 2007. And just like she hasn't really made that many films. It's like, I just go to, like, get these people like some TV deals so that they can just like get the kind of tell the stories that the movies are just increasingly like marginalizing. Yeah, I agree.

Like don't, if people said, like, do you want to see a TV show from Paul Thomas Anderson or Wes Anderson? I mean, the answer is yes, because you want to see anything guys like that make. But they're, they make movies. They are masterful, and they make movies, and there's a reason they make movies. And that's fine. So let's see people who have something to say on TV. You know, I mean, Amazon gave Woody Allen a TV show, and Woody Allen just kind of made a, you know, he took like a, like a B grade thing and made a kind of longer movie. Yeah.

You know, which is fine. But let's let's let TV be TV before we get, you know, it. I don't want to fall into this version of the world where, remember when movie stars would just, like, appear in an HBO movie. Yeah, it turns into basically the MLS for Hollywood. It's where, like, the older or the, you know, I get it. So what's the next one? So Beck Cochran says, girls are taking over the world. Which female characters and actors won the year in 2006 for you guys?

I mean, I was very, very... But first of all, first of all, 2016, great year for women in power. Great, great year. If there's one thing I agree with him on is women have definitely taken over the world, and we're done. It's good. It's a wrap. I was very obviously, we've talked a lot about, I was blown away by Amy Adams this year. She was in two of my favorite movies,

Nocturnal Animal and Arrival. What about you, Andy? I mean, I feel like, Chris, you and I are both just looking up at the wall that we made just a few weeks ago, but right on the spot with a question like this, I'm going to say Phoebe Waller Bridge, who made Flea Back. Nice. I continue to think that that's one of the most impressive TV shows of the year, and I think that her writing plus her acting, plus her acting, and just her whole conception of it was just really bracing, really jarring, really funny, really unsettling, and really exciting, you know, that TV is finally beginning to give performers and talents like her the keys so they can do what they want with the sports car.

You want to do something for individually of each of us? I'm going to trade off asking you guys individual questions. So first, this one's for you, Andy. Alex Peters wants to know, did you write the amygdala line in the Legion trailer? because it sounds like that. No, but that's a big compliment. No, I mean, look, I was very upfront about this when I talked about my thing. You know, I worked on the show. I contributed to the show. I did not write an episode. I mean, I do not, my name is not on any of the scripts. Look for the other talented people I worked with, give them the credit, give, and certainly give Noah Hawley the credit. That's his thing. But that's... Andy's large contribution was largely sitting in a writer's room and being like, what about mutants, though? Yeah. Seriously. No, I was just like, I was just in the back flipping through a

an old hardcover Marvel Masterworks and being like, yo, mimic was dope. Can we use mimic? Yo, and cable jump back and killed his own dad. Well, speaking, I'm just going to stick with you, Andy, because another question from Devin is, what does a co-producer on an FX show do? Oh.

Definitely gets in early enough to contribute to the lunch order. I think that was key. No, so, I mean, this was relatively new to me, too. But basically, the titles that you see at the beginning of the show or at the end of the show and the credits, they're generally, you know, it's Writers Guild stuff. So all the different levels of, many of the different levels of producers, those are actually just writer credits.

You know, so the writer credits go, and I've just recently learned this, it's like staff writer, story editor, co-producer, producer, supervisor, supervising producer, executive producer, basically. So a co-producer does less than an executive producer, certainly. But it's really just. But even that is not necessarily true. It's really just like it's hierarchy and it's guild determined. And it's, you know, some co-producers, like some of the people who also have a co-producer title are people who wrote scripts for the season.

So, but I do want to circle back and just reiterate how vital the lunch ordering was and is for TV writers' rooms. That was a real eye opener for me. And I'd like to think I contributed in a major way. All right, Chris, Luke Hanlon wants to know, do you regret buying all? that Eric Eckhart stock a few months ago. Bravery comes in many different ways, and my bravery was investing deeply in Eckhart Industries.

I think that it's a field that's in flux. I think that what we did in 2016 is a base for growth, and we're going to weather changes in people's attitudes towards the market, but I think we're here. We're here and we're going along

with Eckhart. Can you give that same answer as Giovanni Ribisi and Boiler Room. I would really... By the way, by the way, I don't mean to harp on this. I realize I just gave like a very like tongue-in-cheek answer about like ordering lunch and the guild.

Like, for real, though. This is my question. We're talking about Aaron Eckhart. Now you're jumping in talking about sandwiches. I just want to come back to this and just say literally like you just, it was sitting around and talking about ideas and like breaking story and coming up with possibilities for the show. So it was like being on a podcast.

But it was like being on a podcast, but the pays better. Anyway, back to Aaron Eckhart. Yeah. I feel like he had a really good year. I know that he didn't get any Oscar nominations. He was great and sully. He was good and bleep for this. I don't know really what he has on plate.

But, you know, when I invest in somebody, I stay with him. Also, Chris Harbin wants to know, will you stop yelling into the microphone? Does he want me to? Or is that any question about whether or not? I tried to yell away from the microphone. Right. I've also thrown some compression on it,

so it's a little less harsh for the listeners. Oh, nice. You're like, Butch Vig, getting the kick drum clear. Chris, did you think that that question was, like the same sort of question he would ask to like Puffy in the 90s like Mr. Combs will you ever stop? And then you can like is that how you took that question? Like there was no moment when you were like, oh, maybe he wants me to stop. I'm happy to stop yelling. I mean, you know, it's like I don't want to be a caricature. You have to understand that it really does me good to hear that that enthusiasm,

especially because right before you basically do the thing to me when people are like, yeah, I'm going to drink a whiskey, but then I'm going to drink a coffee. And I'm just going to send my body on Space Mountain. because right before we start recording, you're like, hey, if you look at the New York Times, yeah, things are real dark. Okay, let's go. All right, I got to, so here's another critical listener. Grant wants to know, Andy,

are you ever going to be able to start an episode again without bringing up how depressed you are about the election? No. I bring up every conversation that way. I mean, like, I'm not a, guys, I'm not a good hang right now. Is anybody? No, you're a good. Don't sell.

yourself short. You're a good guy. You keep it like, sorry. I'm a good guy. I'm just not a good hang. I, you know, I'm just trying to watch the young Pope and hold it together like everyone else in America, you know? It's white knuckle time, guys. All right. Last question for Chris. Sterling Johnson wants to know if you can start a school of pronunciation for Ryanisms like biopic and adaptation. It's, look, man. Ooh, these are savage. I'm interested in what made you choose the ones. I'm interested in what made you choose the ones that were like all necks for me. Yeah, I know that, you know, here's the thing. I talk a lot, you know?

Like, even when I'm not on podcast, I'm usually talking at the office and just like, I get stuff wrong, man. We do this more or less live. Like, if you guys want me to go back and fix everything, you're just going to lose some juice. Ride with me. Actually, when I picked that, I didn't know that that was like bashing you. I'm sure it's something I wasn't pretty to.

I do know that I've been battling with pronunciations recently. also Zach just basically admitted that he's joining the long line of producers of our show who basically don't listen to our show which respect oh and somebody else also said I think it was to you Andy that they think you use the word parse incorrectly oh oh okay look at him trying to even the field this is classic this is like dad moves like playing the kids against each other I use it incorrectly let how should Chris use pars in a sentence I don't I don't know what this person's talking about, you went to brown, you should know how to use parse. I'm going to graduate. No wonder I can't spell biopic.

They said, why do you misuse the word parse all the time, especially when describing a movie preview? This is from red to brown wine, says this. Wow, movie previews. I don't know why. I guess, you know, the heart wants what it wants. That's my answer. Why don't we do some lightning round?

Here's the speed round. We're just going to zip through these as fast as can. Would Logan be better with Renner? No. With Renner as the kid? Yes. Is the Americans the wire of the 2010s? No, because Chris doesn't watch it.

Do I actually like the young Pope? I can't tell. Yes. Yeah, yeah, you do. Is the young Pope the last Jedi? Ooh. You think the world's connect? You think it's going to wrap back around in episode 8?

He'll be walking on to a Star Destroyer? he does have a big death star in his office. I'm going to say, I'm going to say yes, it is. Isn't Jedi plural for multiple Jedi? Yes, this was brought up multiple times and I have to admit, like, I've got to hold my hands up and be like, I guess that makes sense. But you know what? Then call it something else.

Like, just be like a bunch of Jedi's, but they're the last ones. Like, don't, like, just don't, the bait and switch. Chris, that's just the Hollywood fixer talking. Like, guys, the title's good. It's short to the point. but what if it was longer and a little more confusing? What if it was? When Oliver Stone makes his Trump biopic in eight months, who plays Trump?

Ugh. Too soon. Hanks or Denzel? Depends on what you're looking for. Peak Denzel is way higher than peak Hanks, but I think Hanks, in terms of, like, movie to movie, probably has, like, a higher batting average. Whose TV career do you like more?

Do you like Hanks on, like, on Bozum Buddies and Saturday Night Live or Denzel on St. elsewhere, man. Right before unsub. Which SNL cast member do you wish could portray you in the Watch parody sketch? Wow. I don't want to know people's answer to this. Kate McKinnon. Yeah, Kate McKinnon.

I want Kate McKinnon to do both. I don't really get future, do you? Yes. Yes. Yes. Strong yes. Why do you guys refuse to watch Hors and Pete? I'm already too sad.

Yeah, it just seems like this is the problem with even good stuff. You know, it just, it feels like it's going to be tough, and it feels like it's going to be work. And I don't want to think about art that way. I don't want to think about something that people respect so much that way. So I honestly feel like this is also me definitely at this point over a year in abusing my, I'm not a TV critic anymore card, so I don't have to watch everything. This is denying myself something that I am at least curious about. but it is tough at the end of the day

to be like let's let's let's fire up a 15 minute Lori Metcalf monologue in a bar you know that's on me I I I I Chris we promise Sam we know we're on the wrong side of history here I know that we're supposed to watch it I just I just haven't been able to work myself up to it

and then there's just like all this new stuff it's now streaming on Hulu so you don't have to pay for it as much can the new Japan droids save rock and roll that doesn't need to and I am actually lukewarm on the Japan droids Andy what do you think I forgot the

album came out and I haven't listened to it yet, but I like the single. Wow, I am old now. I didn't even know that was out. Can it save rock? No. No, because the thing about Japanroids that's so exciting is that it's basically like taking, it's making a smoothie of everything you've ever liked about other rock bands and then just just jamming it together in a Vitamix. I feel like if anyone's going to save rock, they might have to do something slightly more forward-looking, but who might, who am I to say? I don't know. Moonlight or La La Land? Moonlight. I know Andy's answer. Moonlight. That's a pretty easy binary for me. I am just standing on the car of the anti-Lala Land Express. I'm up on the roof. It's an Acela car, and I'm just riding the rails. I love it. Love it up here. I'm looking at America, and I don't like what I see.

Any takes on Man in the High Castle, speaking of which? I enjoyed the first few of last years, the first seasons, and I know that it is a hugely popular show, but I found it to be incredibly slow and kind of like a tough hand. and just lost interest. Andy, you didn't keep watching, did you? No, I watched the first few. I've heard that it improved slightly in the second season.

I thought it was absolutely beautiful. I thought if I was ever going to watch a show solely for production design, that would be the show. But I found the characters and the acting just essentially not that interesting. So I tapped out. All right, we'll go two more. What was your favorite women's March protest sign with a pop culture spin? Oh, easy, easy.

I put this on Instagram. It was the one that said presidential approval rating 32%. Rotten Tomatoes, Paul Blart, Malkop score 33%. That's good. I saw one that said Mike Pence loves nickelback. Nice. All right. So last one, and this is kind of a compliment.

I love the way you guys analyze plot. Where can I read more, learn more about how to critically look at plot the way you guys do? That's a great question. You know, there's lots of stuff. Andy and I are obviously, like, children of like some of the great you know movie critics and we we came up reading like some amazing critics growing up whether it was ebert or you know some of the guys even like on a week to week basis like david amson or your dad or my father who i grew up reading yeah carry ricky i mean

we grew up reading like the new the philadelphia inquire when we were going to have had three movie critics it was pretty awesome um as far as like i personally just always loved that period of the internet when it was on somewhat untethered to commerce and And it was really just a place for people to publish stuff that they couldn't find it, you know, didn't even know to find an avenue for. And like some of the really passionate deep writing about shows like Lost, Mad Men, and even films like, I mean, one of the reasons why I'm still hanging on to my alien stock aside from the fact that's an amazing series was an amazing, like, live journal post about Prometheus. I think we've talked about this a couple of times. that like was just a completely unhinged thousand, multi-thous word explanation of like

the religious imagery in Prometheus. And it's that stuff still out there if you look for it. But yeah, I think Andy and I grew up in an era when that stuff was more prevalent. I would also jump in and just say like in addition to the great TV critics that are out there right now, you know, like Emily Nussbaum, like Alan Seppenwall, Matt's Aller Sites, Mo Ryan. I really say this. I don't own this stock at all. But I think that the New York Times right now is just a murderer's row in almost every field in terms of criticism.

And I think it's really helpful to read criticism in fields other than the ones you're most interested in. So obviously, our friend Wesley Morris is just killing it across the board and culture over there now. Our friend John Caramanica on music as well. But like A.O. Scott on movies and Pete Wells on food, I just think are almost peerless. I really, the way they approach things, the way they construct their sentences and do it with a word count, which everyone would agree I did not have at Grantland and many of us on the internet

do not have. I think it's really, really impressive. Yeah. Thanks for everybody for reaching out and who participated in the mailbag. We can't they do know for all the questions. You can check out the watch list on Twitter

if you just follow at the watchpod. The watch list is where you can find out what Andy and I are going to be talking about on our next episode if you want to jump ahead and sort of be able to watch what we're talking about. So yeah, follow us on at the watchpod on Twitter.

Tell a friend of it. about the watch, man. Spread the word. Thanks so much for listening. Let me say this. Now that the mystery has been completely removed from it for now and forever. Great job, Redskie! Talk to you later. Thanks again to CuriosityStream, a subscription streaming service that offers over 1,500 documentaries and nonfiction series from some of the world's best filmmakers. They sponsored us today. CuriosityStream is the world's first ad-free non-fiction streaming service with over 1,500 titles and 600 hours of content. It's available on many platforms, web app, Roku, Android, iOS, Chrome,

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