The Watch - Ep. 120: Looking at Pop Culture Through the Political Prism WIth Chuck Klosterman

Episode Date: February 9, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss Who Won the Week (3:00) and Taboo (5:43) before they are joined by author and essayist Chuck Klosterman to talk about the state of pop culture and how assigning political meaning to it feels inescapable in the current climate (11:28). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He just moved this table with his mind. It's Andy Greenwald! Do you know that that was...

Lician! Well, that was our show for today. Thanks for tuning in. We're not even talking about it today. Do you know that that was my... my contribution of the show. You said what you did? First of all, I yelled a lot.

I just was like, I'm going to beat Chris in this room. I'm just going to be the fire starter. I'm going to get people hype. Yeah, yeah. I don't even know why I just yelled at. Two, I was like, no, no, no, this idea is cool, but what if he did stuff with his mind? Yeah. And they were all like, what?

I know it was like, cool, beat it. No, it was like, no. I was like, no, there's this idea of mutancy. And he was like, tell me more. Andy, it's the re-up. It's Thursday. We want to say hello to all of our listeners. Today we're going to be joined by our buddy Chuck Closterman,

who's going to talk to us about a bunch of different pop culture things. We just want to say, thank you to everybody who's been sending in fan art. I look like a disused peanut in one of those pictures. And then somebody also did. And I look like Mike Judge's famous creation, Butthead. So that was cool. Thanks for that. We would love it if you just share the podcast with a friend.

It helps us out a lot. Also, how about everybody who checked out the zoo station from libraries? or bought it from online book retailers? I'm going to, there's a way you can look at the fact that David Downing Zoo Station, the first official selection of the Double Down Book Club, the fact that it's sold out on Amazon currently. You can look at that and you could say, well, how many copies do they have? The book came out in 2009.

Or you could say that you and I together are the new Oprah. You know the dude who works in the Z section of Amazon is just like, what? It's like, you mean Doug? Doug at Amazon. Doug finally found a job that suited him and we blew up his spot. We're psyched. We're going to talk about the book. in a couple weeks.

So keep reading it. Send in questions about Zoo Station or topics, and we'll get to them. We'll cover it soon. We're recording this on a Wednesday. It's going up on a Thursday. Tonight is the Premier of Legion, which Andy worked on. Yeah. I'm excited about that.

Take a bow. It's Thursday. You guys are hearing this on Thursday, so maybe you've watched the show or maybe you're going to catch up on demand. I'm excited for you guys to see it. I think it's an exciting show. And we are going to talk about it in some creative fashion next week. Yeah, we'll talk about it on Monday, so you guys have a couple of days to catch up on it.

And to process, you know, really let it just sink in. That's right. because move stuff with your mind. Okay, Andy, let's first start with who won the week. I think it's easy. I think Melissa McCarthy won the week. I think Melissa McCarthy, first of all, I've been thinking a lot about this. Melissa McCarthy came on to Saturday Night Live a couple days ago with this Sean Spicer invitation.

It wasn't the cold open. It wasn't the first sketch after the monologue. She kicked in the door like the Kool-Aid man of comedy like 20 minutes in, just when people were settled into their couch. Maybe they were running low on Cool Ranch Dorekes. You know what I mean? Yeah. They weren't ready for that.

No one was ready for that. And I gotta say, purely, I think she would win this purely just from a performance perspective, because it was a little bit like Serena Williams dropping by the courts on Alvarado. You know what I mean? There's courts on Alvarado. Right by the 101. What are you?

Are you a local? Come on. She was so good. And you realize watching a performer who's so good at being a comedy performer and so good at being a live audience responsive comedy performer, there is a skill level. There's like a level up that people can achieve. She was so locked in. Did you see how much gum she put in her mouth?

My favorite Saturday Life performers are the ones that go far beyond committed. Far beyond driven, to quote Pantera. Yeah. And they never break. And it's like they treat it as if they're in like Long Day's Journey in the Night. Like Will Ferrell, Kristen Whig used to do that. Samberg, Fallon, Sands. Sands killed.

This is that commitment to a bit that's just like psychotic almost. And the Spicer imitation was very, very, very committed. And, you know, considering we are dealing with the world where we have the most thin-skinned people in the world in charge of running our country into the ground. I think Twitter's made us all thin-skinned, though. Well, that's a fair point. But I don't think anybody's, I mean, okay, did we get a little upset about the way we

maybe looked in those caricatures? Sure. But we didn't tweet about it. You don't see us getting upset. I was just like, I saw the picture and I was just like, what if I said out of tweet was just like, disgraceful that Pearl's art supplies is still sending? That's what I'm saying. And meanwhile, our communications director, Zach Max, tweeting it out being like awesome. No, it is nice.

No, the fact that I'm just saying it worked completely on a performance and comedy level. And the fact that this is actually rattling nutball cages in Washington is even more effective because it was, That is what satire can do, and it had teeth like Saturday Night Live hasn't had in a minute. Yeah. Congratulations, Melissa McCarthy. You won the week on our podcast. Andy, let's get a little letter from Tabu Island. Is it time?

You know, dear Andy. Thank you. Things change everywhere. They change on Taboo Island. Do they? And over the first four episodes, it was solely, I think my job here was to tell you about things that were happening on Taboo since you weren't watching Taboo. Things that involve generally semen, laughing gas, orgies, which I guess is redundant because all good orgies involve the first two things. So we're no longer talking about Taboo Island.

No? We're talking about Hollander Key. Because Tom Hollander has done so much with so little on this show. And he has two scenes in this past week's episode. The first one is when he is asking Tom Hardy if he could. Maybe going on a date with this woman who used to be married to Tom Hardy's father and is now living with Tom Hardy and is part of his plot against the East India Company, the Honorable East India Company and the Crown. And Tom Hardy's just like you want to go on a date with her. And Tom Hollander says, not only is she among the large group of women I would sleep with, she is also among the smaller group of women I would masturbate over.

Oh. Yeah. Well, first of all, kudos for sharing. Yeah. You know, I really appreciate. That's the kind of honesty and friendship that I feel like is lacking in this world. Yeah. You've never said anything like that to me.

He's candid. There's also an amazing scene where Hollander talks about making gumpowder with this crappy chemical that would make it faster. And he's like, the problem is that like when the French do it, they blow things up by accident. So that was good. Taboo was actually excellent this week. They switched directors. So Shaw and T. Collins wrote a really good review of this in Vulture where it was like, how there was like subtle shifts in the visual.

Can I, as the grateful recipient of these postcards. You didn't seem as excited about this one, frankly. No, because can I, can I give you some feedback? Sure. When you're selling me on Taboo Island, when you're trying to get me to pay a visit, I don't get much vacation. I got it. I got a kid.

You know, like, free time is a premium at a premium. You're not going to sell me on subtle shifts. You know what I mean? Like, I appreciate that you're trying to, like, find my weak spot. Yeah, yeah. But last week, you were like, this dude comes on, and he's like mugsy bogs and he's full of demon spunk. You should watch the show. And I was like, oh, word, I'm interested.

This week, you're like, you know, the cinematography changed lately and the shadings. I read online that this is not the brochure for Taboo fucking Island. Come on, man. Tabu Island's going to tear us apart. Did you bring in a marketing expert? You got to sell me on it. Sell me hard. I think I get self-conscious.

I understand that. Yeah, it's like, you know, it's become a thing. This is what it must have been like on week six of Andy's airplane movies. You started feeling like you had to deliver on a mass scale. Not really. I felt terrific because I was flying on airplanes getting drunk on shard. Okay. Thank you for the constructive criticism on Tabu Island.

We'll definitely take it to heart. You and the rest of the tourism board? Yeah. We're going to take a quick break from our sponsors and then we're going to call our buddy Chuck Losterman. Hey, guys, just want to tell you a little bit about books. Have you ever ordered flowers online before? It is not a satisfying experience. Let me tell you, you're lured in, you think you're going to pay like 1999, but when all

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That's B-O-U-Q-S dot com. and wanted to use promo code watch for 20% off. Happy Valentine's Day. This episode of The Watch is also brought to you by Curiosity Stream, a subscription streaming service that offers 1,500 documentaries and nonfiction series from some of the world's best filmmakers. Feel better about all that reality television you've been watching by knowing that you're also tuning into factual educational programming,

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Go to curiositystream.com slash sign up and use promo code the watch to get unlimited access to the world's top documentaries and nonfiction series completely free for the first 60 days. That's insane. That's two entire months free free. Again, it's curiosity stream.com slash sign up. You enter promo code the watch. That's free 60 days when you sign up with promo code the watch. CuriosityStream documentaries for the incurably curious. Andy, we are now joined by our buddy Chuck Closterman all the way in New York. York City calling us on the phone. Chuck, what's up, man? Thanks so much for calling in. Never. Thanks, man. I'm honored. Chuck, we're going to talk to you about, the best thing about talking to Chuck is we never actually know exactly what we're going to talk to you about. So we're going to let this play out. But I did want to begin by saying, but what if we're wrong? Your most recent book is coming in paperback in April. Is that right? Yeah, that's coming out in April. And then just a short time, like a few weeks after, in a hardcover, like an anthology,

of my journalism is coming out kind of like my fourth book this will be 10th book that's like just called 10 like the Chicago record this is kind of like your period where you're like credence putting out two albums in a year I love it yeah exactly within a month which I kind of thought with strange timing

but the publisher seems to know what they're doing so out and then the next thing will come up right after when will someone put out your collected letters and emails because we would like to be just warned about that ahead of time well have you given any thought to like You know how every so often you'll read that a writer has just, you know,

late, later in his career, later than where you are in your career, of course. But, you know, just like sells literally every scrap of paper he ever doodled on generally to the University of Texas? Have you considered where you would like to sell? Oh, yeah. Would you sell yours to Nick Saban? What university do you think would be best suited for your collective? To do you happen after the person is dead? Yeah, no, no, no.

But they make the plans beforehand. Yeah, but I think it's very often, like, some of these, like, more rapacious universities to have a lot of money are just like, no, we're just going to snap this up now. I think, I think Leitham did a recent. I think I'd probably go to the junior college route. Yeah, that's right. The pure division three. Like the North Dakota State College of Science or whatever, you know, like a two-year institution, kind of high school with ashtray is cheaper. There you go.

Not Clemson, though? Fuck. Then I guess I would consider it. So, like, people yield. Well, Andy, you had a question that was sort of related to Chuck's book. Right. So I think, first of all, people haven't read Waterford Wrong. I think it's terrific.

I think it's one of your best books. I love that book. I think it's particularly relevant and interesting now because the essential conceit is all these things that we think of as being culturally important, of having permanence. We might really just be wrong about that because we're looking at it through the presence's eyes. And the book was published last year. I was on bestseller list last year. The paperback's coming. Chuck, I feel like we've been wrong about a lot of things just in the last three.

or four months. So I'm wondering if you were going to add a chapter now, what else have we been wrong about? Do you also feel that maybe we've been much more wrong than we had previously thought? You're not the first person who asked me this because I think a lot of people feel, yeah, I kind of feel is that we might be wrong about that we're not even considering the possibility that we're wrong about. That seems like if I had to add a chapter, that perhaps that how much influence and importance the president? Or maybe we are exaggerating and we are wrong about how important it is for America to sort of resemble.

Do you necessarily believe that or are you just sort of tossing that out as like that's possible that that could be the case? The second, the latter, because it's like many things in the book. It's like when I'm bringing addiction. Sure. Like, well, you know, what if we're wrong, but I'm right. I mean, that's not how it is. Yeah.

Well, I think about things even years ago, totally differently, using totally different criteria. They have a weight of the situation. There might be nothing to look at. But it's also possible they might be saying, like, well, that's in politics were really in a way that don't necessarily be devastated. There's sort of this tyranny of the present view, right? I mean, I think the thing that is most intolerable to a majority of humans, myself included, is large-scale uncertainty. And, you know, in the same way that if you're on a car trip to someplace you've never been before, it can feel like it's taking forever.

And then when you're driving back, you know it's going to take 19 minutes and it doesn't feel that long at all. What we don't know right now and what we can't know is if we're at the beginning of something or at the end of something. So I hear what you're saying, and I feel like that makes a lot of sense.

Because if we had the luxury of taking the long historical view, it does actually, it does begin to appear that what we're experiencing now is the, in my opinion, awful, but also logical conclusion, hopefully conclusion, but logical extension of where certain things have been headed, a certain type of nihilism, a certain type of partisanship, a certain kind of xenophobia.

But we don't know if this is the end of the beginning of it in terms of its strangle to hold on our lives. And that's hard to live with on a day-to-day basis. Does this music as much... What do you think about the role of context and cultural appreciation? Because what you're talking about now made me think of how the week of the election or immediately after the election, Chris and I on the show talked about the new Tripled Quest album and how, though it was recorded well before the results in November, it felt just soaked in that moment.

It felt particularly rich and resonant and almost prescient in what it was talking about. And on the way to the studio today, I drove past, there's a big billboard on sunset for Jordan Peel's new horror movie Get Out, which deals with ideas of, you know, of racism and basically the society in which he was making the movie probably six months ago. that movie, I was trying to think about, I think that movie is going to do big business and generate a lot of conversation. But the movie was almost made to exist in a world where President Hillary Clinton was entering her second month with almost unified Republican opposition, right?

Like, that's the world the movie was made for. So how do you feel, it's almost random, the fact that we're now going to assign all this other weight to something that was made, not in a vacuum, but not made with the foresight of where we were going to be. immediately after it happened. And then like we just sort of talk about what's happening now.

I think that I wonder whether or not, you know, in 20 years, there are things, there are cultural artifacts that will come out during this time period that will lose that. I mean, I am to imagine if we're all still here in 20 years that will look back on some things that happen over these years, the same way people look back on. It takes a nation of millions to hold us back or Sandinnees. or double nickels on the dime or, you know, records that came out or movies that came out or television shows that came out. And they have a cultural context.

They have political resonance for that time being. And they can be read as documents of that time. You can read Sandinista as like a sort of digressive political essay. But you can also just listen to it as like a bunch of guys from England who were sucking in all the music that they were hearing at the time in London and New York in Jamaica. and I wonder whether or not the same thing for that football game I don't think in 20 years if they are showing an NFL film

about that comeback they're going to say and of course the Patriots were the team of Trump and the Falcons were the team of the people but the Patriots triumph I mean like I don't think that that might be written in Dear Leaders history books at that point

when President Eric Trump I guess what I'm saying is that it's just like it's a present tense problem but I don't think that that's going to be something that lingers unless we are truly in a lot of trouble. Like Saturday Night Live now. Well, and I... I was just going to say, but Saturday Night Live in this case,

I mean, the president is responding to it, you know? Yeah. It's not that... It's not like this is happening... In a vacuum, yeah. Happens. He's like not only part of the problem. He's probably the center of the problem.

He's writing their own jokes. He's writing their jokes for them. Yeah. And what I'm arguing, or do you... No. As we're talking about it, though, I'm wondering if we would be, I feel like we could still be having this conversation under a Clinton administration, basically, because I feel like it's an extension of something that maybe we all have become uncomfortable with to varying degrees, which is just the relative value of a quick opinion. You know, I think that as a critic at Granland, I was becoming frustrated with the need for not just the, you know, the 2000 word piece that I would write coming off of watching something maybe once.

But then you'd have to have the tweet also. You'd have to respond immediately. Everything was a very quick response. And I think that it can make you better as a person. I can think it make you better as a thinker as a critic and just as a consumer and appreciator of art to go further back. I think that for me, one of the most enjoyable things this year so far has been watching the young Pope, as listeners know. But one of the reasons why is because I can find it. a lot of things in there that make me think about our current situation.

But I can also find a lot of things in there that are just insane visual images of, you know, of nuns playing basketball. I wonder if it's the same reason why people are going back and reading Orwell or reading Philip Roth's plot against America because, you know, maybe we have a different insight into these works now. And they are, in a way, they're like, like these works of art like Nixon are tanned, rested and ready. You know what I mean?

They've been there. They've sunk in a little bit. and now we can process them in a different speed. Yeah, and Chuck, I would just add on to that, that I feel like having this stuff thrown in, having this stuff be the prism through what most pop culture is going to be viewed through, having the prism of the Trump administration and the current political climate, seems like a pretty small price to pay to have a level of mass engagement

and defense of certain principles that people believe in. And I think that, you know, obviously, it's frustrating if you feel like a piece of art or a piece of pop culture that is made outside of the context of the current political climate or has nothing to do with it that it's being forced to engage with that even in the critical conversation so that I'm sure something like Legion will you know like I'm sure that the Americans when it comes back is going to be looked at as it's our relationship to all those things are going to be lenses that we view these things through, but I feel like it's good to talk about this stuff a lot.

And I don't think that I personally get worried about being complacent. I feel like in the last week or so, I have. You know what I mean? In a way that it really doesn't matter one way or the other to anyone else. But I can feel a little bit of a return to kind of feeling okay on a day-to-day level and checking in intermittently rather than being completely plugged into the feed of like every single thing that happens I'm checking on and getting worried about and getting anxious over and and you know that leads me down seven rabbit holes and the next thing I know it's been two hours and I haven't left Twitter. I mean and you're crying. That just happens randomly. But you know what I mean? Like I don't know. I don't think it's a- But does you think that has as much to do with the democratization of people having a platform and people having a voice about the things that matter to them? And back in the 80s, there was only so many people.

places controlled by so many people in terms of what the way you would talk about MTV or hair metal back then was either Circus Rolling Stone or you know Time magazine or whatever like the few outlets that you would have to be like hey this seems like a reaction to Reagan you know what I mean or this seems like it's a product of and sports yeah yeah yeah and I think what we're not going to be part of it percentage you know I would say just to flip it around a little bit though the reaction is going to be what the reaction is and I had certainly had issues with Twitter even before all the recent catastrophes started happening. But just personally, as someone who is trying to engage with art and make art and comment on art

and make podcasts to talk about art, I'm really shaken. You know, and this has shaken me to the point where I struggle with things that I thought were core beliefs. Like, I don't know how much this beautiful television. Well, everything seems quaint. Well, that's what I mean, this beautiful television show or this beautiful image or this wonderful scene, this book that I'm reading, this comic book, whatever song, I'm shaken as to the value of it either to myself or outside of myself, you know. And so I find myself, I'm very grateful, actually,

that I'm not a daily critic at this moment because I would be very much struggling, just trying to maintain a compass setting as to how to process things and then how to separate them, how to separate the signal from the noise, basically, on a daily basis. You know, on Monday, we talked about, Chris and I talked about the new 24 show and my reaction really wasn't critical of the show's faults, which I think on a structural level and on a

conceptual level are major. My response literally was... Was the political stances of it. Fuck off with the show. Yeah. Because right now I just can't and they shouldn't which is not a helpful criticism but I was I'm rattled to the point where I can't get it together. I think it has as much to do

with how difficult it is to transition from like, it depends on how you can compartmentalize in your life. If you are feeling like Michael Shannon takes shelter most of the day. I was last night. It's hard to then be like, but you know what? Here's what Superstore gets right about the sitcom.

You know, and that's a really difficult, and everything can seem frivolous outside of your engagement with the political climate. Chuck, I wanted to, it's part of what we're talking about, but I did want to ask you about something else. You know, after that Super Bowl on Sunday, I made a joke to some people we work with about how now I want the Warriors to win because I'm kind of like at my

I feel like I have lost this sensation of surprise is now no sensation at all. It's like a drug that you do too much and it stops getting you high. And I was wondering if like over the last few years even we've had the Cavs come back. We've had an obsession with television shows that fundamentally shift gears

or have incredible narrative upheaval, like whether it's Game of Thrones or Westworld or Mr. Robot. Big shocks. Yeah. We've had in sports and in politics, these enormous unforeseen events happen, whether it's comebacks or data being faulty or wrong

or predictability being questioned. And I was wondering what your relationship is. to that because I think that you've always been somebody you never go too high and you never go too low whenever I've talked to you about something I mean you really like something and you can be like not so into something but it's rare that something triggers in you

like incredibly like I hated that I loved that you know and I wonder for somebody like you who exists if I'm reading you right in that kind of middle ground how you have been responding to this constant sort of table flipping that's been happening

Thank you. Have you, is the capacity for surprise in your life as a sort of, as a consumer of popular culture, of sports, of politics of life, is that the disappearance of that is the fact that now the most unlikely thing seems to happen almost every three weeks, if not every two hours? and that everything that you would think, hey, you can't come back from 28 points down, you can't come back from 3-1 down, you can't have all these people be robots or this guy be talking to a father that's not there. This guy can die and come back.

Is the breaking of all those rules? I mean, like, I always look, you know, this is hardly World War I that we're going through, but I'm always fascinated by how, you know, modernism grew out of World War I as a reaction to the idea that the impossible it happened, that the catastrophic loss of life that happened was like their way of dealing with that was to shatter all the rules of the formal things that they were doing.

Music and art and painting. And in a weird way, I almost feel like the world has been predicting the world we are in right now. You know, it's been saying like, you can't hold, and this goes back to your book, you cannot hold these things to be givens. It's a luxury to think that things are set a certain. So I don't know if I have a question as much as I'm saying like, No, I, it's for, but, please. Sure.

And we're going to play hard. Yeah, I think that to bring it specifically to the election, I think if you look back on the year that was, there were anywhere from 15 to 25 moments when everyone, and I mean everyone, obviously not every voter, but everyone who is in any way qualified to say they're a gatekeeper or a referee, basically, of how things are done, how we perceive of things, said, well, he's done. You cannot do this. you cannot make fun of a physically disabled reporter. You cannot make fun of a P.O.W. You cannot brag of sexual assault. And every time, the candidate in question, you know, just double down. And in retrospect, had he at that moment begun to behave like a standard politician and said,

oh, I'm so sorry, or I'm, you know, that probably would have cratered it. But by continuing to act in an impossible fashion, we got where we got, right? Right. You know, that the... Bringing it back to culture for a second, we've talked about how you feel about the way these, the way art is being processed and commented on and received. Do you have any thoughts or opinion to the way on artists themselves,

be they television showrunners or songwriters or football coaches, embracing this idea of the impossible? And, you know, this is always the comment, and it feels particularly trite to me now, but, you know, I certainly remember people saying it when George W. Bush won too, which is, oh, well, at least punk music will be good again. But in this case, I'm talking in a broader sense of, like,

could we see radical innovation in ways that as just fans of things we might appreciate? Does your brain ever go to that place? Do you feel hopeful about that? It feeds back to what we were, because it makes sense. Yeah, I wonder, I think about a lot. I mean, when did K.A. come out. It came out in 2000, right?

2000, yeah. So when I think about that time in the contested election in the months afterwards, I mostly think about Kid A as a soundtrack to my life and to what people were talking about at Spin and things. That record was made by, you know, a bunch of weirdos in England who probably weren't paying the closest attention to the Bush Gore race. You know, they were not, it wasn't their country. It wasn't even the type of coverage that we've had now. And it was a reaction to people wanting to be a band that they at heart were not. In fact, most of them in the band were like, I like to listen to German IDM and, you know, I don't, I don't want to be Coolishaker and Oasis. I want to go.

So the internal personal reasons for making the art ended up having political resonance or personal relevance outside of it, but it was not made expressly for that purpose, which maybe made it last longer. So maybe that's, that's, you know, and that's the tripled quest thing. That's way of looking at. Yeah, I mean, I feel like the same thing happened when I saw arrival, which was, I think I saw it. I think, I'm pretty sure I saw it once before the election and once after the election and I liked it more after. And I do think that a lot of the way that people started talking about that movie was like, see, communication is important.

Like, empathy is important. You know, trying to understand things that are not, that are different than you is important. And all these things that have become themes over the last couple of months are sort of getting read onto this movie that had probably was not intentional. But I do think it, basically what is, like, artist. always going to be what the art is about for a variety of people. Everybody's going to have a different perspective on it. I don't think that saying, well, now this is going to be viewed through the lens of the current political situation is any different than any other art from Shakespeare and before.

You know, I mean, that those, the reason why now all of this, I mean, we've been saying for years, Game of Thrones is a really interesting show about power. But now it's actually like, it's a really interesting show about power. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. People are being fed to dogs. Well, because all the things that you were like, well, this seems a little hysterical, some of the back room, you know, like behind closed doors stuff. This seems a little ridiculous. And I'm in no way saying like, oh, this is what a resonant show in the era of Trump.

But I'm just saying it's not as fantastical as we thought it was. Chaos really is a ladder. You know, before we let you go, I wonder if we could, you know, we are trying, we are, I think, in different ways, but essentially all arguing for taking, hopefully trying to take a calmer, longer view of culture and sporting events. But we are faced with in the next month, faced with, like this is some obstacle. These sort of, you know, official annual inflection points looking back on what things mean and celebrating them.

And we have the Grammys this weekend. We have the Oscars coming in two weeks. I think we've already established that these ceremonies will be the most woke ceremonies of all time for good or ill. Do these serve? I mean, I guess it's a two-part question. I think I know your answer to the first one, and it's one I generally agree with. But do these types of ceremonies and trophy handouts serve any purpose, period, full stop,

but do they serve any particular purpose this year in this climate in lieu of the conversation we're having? All the words shows are specifically the Grammys. General. Okay. Recognize a sort of state or happening in the idiom. That's awesome. Yeah. And here's sort of the competing. Yeah, there's no spin alternative guy without a sort of already a staff.

mainstream pop music of the 80s and 90s, right? Like, there's not... Absolutely. Yeah, and then there's not even a counter, you know, and then even out of the spin alternative guide, and I mentioned this is a book that came out, I can't remember when, like, 96, I think. It was very important to us.

It would basically, like, gave you a road map of, like, all the great alternative music that had sort of come out since, I gosh, the 50s, I mean, I don't even... It was mostly, like, post-punk, new wave, indie, college rock, all the stuff that... Yeah, but artists. Yeah, and it's...

It's like 60 psych people, but it was basically like a, you know, the alternative roadmap to popular music. And in reaction to that, then you had like sort of, I'm not necessarily directly in reaction to that, but that's when pop-timism comes up sort of in the early 2000s and people start saying, well, actually, you know, this sort of raucist idea of like otors and people who are really serious about their music degrades the value of stuff that was made maybe in a more industrial or mainstream environment. Yeah. Or it's just cold about what makes something good. So that's really cool. You have to have a statement to have a argument, right? Yeah. I really like that and I agree with it.

It's interesting to think that coming out of Sunday night at the Grammys, if you're looking at like what's going to be named the album of the year for 2017, or are these the 2016 Grammys? Anyway, the point being, they're already clearly what the two narratives will be. Like if Adele wins or if Beyonce wins, right? And it almost doesn't matter because the Adel record is beautifully put together and it's a great, it's a quote, I say this almost without judgment. I think it's a great album.

Her fans love it. It does what she does best. It sounds good. It's sold a lot. The Beyonce record, similarly. I think that's a better record. I think it's a more interesting record. But the bigger takeaway is people will look back on this award show.

And if Adele wins, which will be seen as I would imagine, a more conservative, safe pick, then that will be derided for sort of ignoring the culture at large. And if lemonade wins, it'll be seen as a rebuke to the current political climate. and, you know, a feminist champion, basically stomping back onto the stage and reclaiming what's hers, all of that is just extra stuff. I almost like those records about. I don't know at this point in that country would seem like records. Yeah, like four more. We're trying to look at these things.

Yeah, and that's that I'm about this. I think so. Yeah. Well, I think there's always the sense. I think, to your larger point, the Grammys are absurd and ridiculous and make no sense and matter very little. I think the group think, you know, that there are always these older voters and they always want a sort of an album exactly like a Dells album. They want a big seller with a, you know, when I say classical, I don't mean classical music. I mean sort of a classic style of music, a classic packaging, a classic performance.

That would seem to me to be the frontrunner. But I think, as you're saying, the Grammys have tried to lower their voting bracket, lower the age of their voters, trying to be more plugged into pop culture. And also the thing is this, like, the Grammys have never made sense because you cannot wrap your arms around something as wildly discursive and digressive as any year of music to represent really anything like a consensus. But if you look at the albums of the year nominees this year, it's Adele, Beyonce, Justin Bieber, Drake, and Sturgle Simpson. I would say, okay, fine. Like, my feeling about all that is fine. I think Beyonce probably deserves to win. But there's, I don't know if purpose was as good as the singles, but basically like, these are, this is a perfectly fair reflection of what a lot of.

people liked. I mean, just about... Well, you know, it will still look at least, but I guess it makes sense. In a way, friends... Chuck, you're a fan of the rock and roll music. The word rock was right there in the middle of your first book. Are you aware of the nominees for Best Rock Album for 2016? Can I...

No, who are they? Blink 182? Can I try to... It's like that... No, they're nominated for, like, the big categories. Best new music. Record of the year, Best New Artist, Song of the Year, all that stuff. Oh, so rock, this is like...

Blink 182 for their comeback record, California. Cage the Elephant, which is still a thing. Gojira, which I've never heard of, but is evidently a thing. They're metal, right? Well, apparently not, because they're not nominated for metal. They're nominated for rock. Oh, I thought they were a metal band. Maybe I'm thinking somebody else. They definitely sound like a metal band.

It's a band called Gojira, and the album's called Magma. Panic at the Disco and Weezer. What are we going to do with this? I feel like this is where you say that's an interesting point again. Right. I mean, I've seen 75. Plywood Mac rumors came out. First Van Halen record came out.

You know, Stones were putting out records. A lot of the puns things were up to that period. Chris and I were born, thus changing the narrative completely. Yeah. I mean, albums. You know, in rainbows. Yeah.

It was the, like, does that bum you out? What? Does that bum you out? Well. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. No, I just I just mean, yeah. Yeah. Or like the New Japan

Joids record. I think that's a, I really enjoy listening to it. Seems like the equivalent, I think, to you know, like someone to be into you know, Germany during a certain period of the 70s or whatever. It's not like there's no audience for it.

It's also not reaching anyone who isn't already micro-targeted to love it. You know, it is, especially Japan droids, to me, are a band that are like, it's like a fan service band. Like, they will take the best parts of what you love from other rock records, including just the intensity, the experience, and they will make a record celebrating that for you. I just, I just can't believe that after this whole conversation, Chuck's saying he'll,

saying never. I know. Well, I mean, I just, I could be totally wrong about this, but it just, I'd buy these things. See how that could even happen now with rock music. Yeah. I don't see. I think Coldplay was like probably the closest there was, and very self-consciously so, to trying to do Joshua Tree-Ree U-2 era. Like Joshua Tree era U-2 of band that matters.

But then, but then also they then spent the last five years making dance tracks. Trying to get on pop radio, which I don't say that pejoratively. I respect that. They're basically saying like, well, okay, well, what can a rock band that plays arenas do to continue to have a seat at that table and be relevant? and they're trying to go where the music is to, you know, to mix results. But that seems to be, that's the plan they're following. And it doesn't seem to be like anyone else is either interested in following that or the audience isn't interested in watching them go. It's, yeah.

Chuck, it's been awesome talking to you. We should probably wrap it up there. You can get Chuck's book, but what if we're wrong at all booksellers, I'm sure, online and otherwise? It's going to get the watch bump. It's going to be sold out now, like Zoo Station. And then Chuck, when's that collection coming out? The last book comes out at the end of April, and then a book, which is that old day. Okay, awesome.

Well, hopefully you'll come on our show and talk to us about all those things soon, and we'll probably talk to you. Well, I was happy you asked me. It's always cool to be on it. Thanks, man. All right, thanks, man. That's nice to end on a happy note. Okay, thanks to Chuck. The watch list for this for Monday is Legion, the Grammys and Girls.

Yeah. And we will do a Young Pope. Maybe we'll do Young Pope for the re-up next week. We'll catch up to it. To catch up to it. I think it's ending next week. I thought it was 10 episodes. I think, but remember they're burning two per week.

We're lost. We're lost in the Vatican. Lost in the Vatican. All right, man. Thank you so much for listening. Andy, I'll talk to you Monday. Great job, Branski. Thank you to CuriosityStream for sponsoring the show today. CuriosityStream is a subscription streaming service

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