The Watch - Ep. 129: ‘Logan,’ ‘The Good Fight,’ ‘Billions,’ and ‘Big Little Lies’

Episode Date: March 6, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Jason Concepcion analyse why ‘Logan’ (1:50) worked and what other future superhero films could learn from it. Then, TV writer Alison Herman stops by to discuss ‘The Good Fight’, ‘Billions’ (24:30) and ‘Big Little Lies’ (34:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the ringers gaming podcast, Achievement-oriented, and our wrestling podcast, The Maskman Show. They're both breaking off from Channel 33, so you can subscribe to each of those on iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, or wherever you get your podcast. Listen to Ben Lindberg and Jason Concepcion on Achievement-oriented and David Shoemaker on the Masked Show. Hey guys, welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

Andy is on vacation, so I'm joined today by Jason Concepcion and Allison Herman to talk about Logan, Billion's Big Little Lies, and The Good Fight. I wanted to let you know a couple of things about The Watch. We are doing a live podcast, myself and Sean Fennessey, from South by Southwest in Texas this Saturday. Check our Twitter feed at The WatchPod if you want to find out more information. I believe you can come if you have a pass. We have an interview going up this week with Gareth David from Los Campesino. It was a great band from England.

You can listen to their new album, Six Scenes. I encourage you to do so, not only because it's awesome, but because it'll make the interview make a lot more sense. Check out that new album now from Los Campesinos at Six Scenes. The Book Club is happening next week. Zoo Station by David Downing. If you're a fast reader, you still have time. That episode is going up Monday. It's me and Andy's conversation about Zoo Station.

Andy will be back next week. I promise share the watch with a friend. We really appreciate you guys listening. You're the best. Here's the show. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me on the other line. drunk on that canewood syrup. It's Jason Concepcion! To be my X-Men! What's up, man? Jason is joining me. Andy's still on vacation, so Jason's dropping by

to talk a little bit of Logan. It is a spoiler conversation of Logan. We'll do that for about 20. Then Allison Herman's going to come by and talk to me about billions, good fight, and big little lies. Andy should be back soon. Yeah, so Jason, man, 85 mil in the bank. Yeah.

A lot more overseas. Logan, beloved by critics, beloved by fans, beloved by money. Damn, man, though, like, this was one of those where it's like even the bad parts were good. Like, coming out and, like, I was like, I kind of cut Oklahoma City and like, damn, Dr. Peter Ben caught a bad one. Like, everything about it, like, it's the rare movie that you walk out of. And you're like, I'm glad it was that. it had everything. I'm glad it had all the stuff that I even

even the parts that weren't like my favorite parts only went towards improving or bolstering the good parts. It was the first it's the first X-Men movie that that got Wolverine right. Like got the sadness of the character right, got the hyperviolence of the character right,

got the like the regret that he feels that his most useful skill is just going absolutely blackout insane and cut. cutting dudes arms off. Yeah. It got that right, finally.

And I really liked it. It's one of the best comic book movies, surely, of the comic book movie era. The first, let's start at the ending, because I think that's part of the reason why I loved it so much, was so often with these films you're going in and you're spending two and a half hours just to have someone turn to Benedict Cumberbatch at the end and go, we're only just getting started. And this, not only did this obviously end, on like a really nice note with like a classic,

just like this film is over now moment, but the entire film is constructed to support that, which is a huge difference from the way mostly like Avengers and even something like that might be like quote unquote, like a more tense version of a Marvel movie like Avengers, it's Captain America Civil War, even Winter Soldier,

or there's just so much other stuff going on that they have to do to build this or build that. That this was like, it's the five characters. They're going in one direction. It's all ending at this place. We know what has to happen. And there's just such a good confidence in the way that the story is being told.

Yeah, when you're, it's a lot like what makes, what invariably makes some of the best arcs in major comics is when you untether a story from the needs to service a wider universe. You know, you just, you set the creators free to do some really cool stuff. So what are some examples of like something like a comic run like that, even if you're just like a casual like a watch listener might like want to go check out? Well, I would say Josh Wheaton's run on Astonishing X-Men.

Yeah. Is amazing because it's it kind of crystallizes all these early like the early X-Men themes set up by Claremont and Stan Lee, The Outsider themes and stuff, but it repackages them in a really tight, modern way that is just really easy to get into. It's not attached to any of the other X-Men stories or the wider Marvel universe.

It kind of happened like out on the side. So I would say that. Any of the ultimate X-Men, the ultimate X-Men launch and any of the ultimate Marvel lines, like that stuff was really integral in creating the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the Ultimates, which is kind of like the ultimate version of Avengers,

got their start there. And I should say that Ultimate Marvel was kind of like this attempt somewhat after, you know, Marvel had kind of like bottomed out with the bankruptcy and stuff to like reach a new audience by kind of retconning their characters in a new universe set in the modern time. It's like you've got Spider-Man becoming Spider-Man in, you know, 1998, not in 1962. And you've got the Avengers coming together in, you know, 2000, not in 1967 or whatever it is.

Okay. One of the reasons why I was asking is because obviously, you know, this adaption, this film draws heavily on Old Man Logan. Yeah. And I was wondering whether or not that was a comic run that, or that was a title, it meant much to you. and whether or not you thought it did it justice or expanded on it or how you felt about that. I think it's, I loved Old Man Logan. Old Man Logan was probably the best, it's one of the best Wolverine stories ever. It's certainly like the best Wolverine story in, I don't know, you know, 25 years because the character had become pretty played out.

Like over the last 15 years, he just was so popular that you had to have him in everything. He had his own monthly issue. He was in every single comic, like X-Men comic, and it's like, how does he even get around? It's just impossible to figure how he could be everywhere. And it just, you know, like the entire ex-universe just became way too dependent on Logan. So Old Man Logan was cool because it was this dystopian story that was, again, not connected to the existing universe in any way. And basically, it's pretty different, but what happens there is villains have, they got their shit together and killed all the heroes. And Wolverine was part of that because Mysterio, who is like this illusion, is this guy, is a Spider-Man villain that can project illusions, tricks Wolverine into killing all the X-Men because he makes them think that they're all the bad guys.

Is the Westchester incident? Yeah, that's probably what that is. Except they probably changed it so that it's Professor X who killed everything. Gotcha. Okay. So what we're referring to, obviously, is this thing that's haunting Professor X and that the reason why they need to keep him more or less sedated is because he's like his brain has been classified as a weapon of mass destruction in the movie.

And one of the cool things that James Mangal does throughout the film is drop these little expository side stories. Because I think that this is something where he knows there's a 90-minute version of this movie that is just purely Logan, Laura, X, and Boyd Holbrook chasing them in X-24. And it's like a very narrow story. But then he expands the world a little bit to include the stuff that Richard E. Grant's character is up to with the, you know, and the conspiracy between him and this, you know, megacorp, canewood, which is, you know, destroying farms and poisoning the water and possibly, like, pumping mutant stuff into. soda. And obviously that's a little heavy-handed, but when you just say it out loud. But the way that they handle in the movie is like passing radio chatter or something someone says like in a haze of like a drug, like, you know, or when X is, Professor X is kind of coming down from

a seizure or something. I thought that was one of the best parts of the movie is the way that they would communicate information in this really off-handed way and let you do. You do the work to put together the pieces. Totally. It's much better than, you know, it's 2029 and the mutants have been destroyed. The world is controlled by five corporate. You know, it's like way better than that. And I do enjoy stories, especially fantasy and sci-fi stories that don't strangle you

with all this like expository detail and world building and just kind of let you soak it in through osmosis. You don't need to know the details of why the world is effed up. You know, they did all that. They did most of it, honestly, on a montage of Wolverine driving along the border and his Uber. Yeah, yeah. And those kids giving the finger to people at the border and screaming USA. Yeah.

What do you think of the way that the violence and, like, the action is handled? Because obviously, you know, you read the comics and it has like a sort of two-dimensional feel to it clearly. But, you know, we've always grappled with this idea of what this would actually feel like to be these people, even if they had superpowers, like the amount of destruction that they would cause. Just like the physical toll, which we often will see like, Iron Man flies into a black hole and he's like, oh, I'm having PTSD.

And it's just like, but it only for the 30 seconds that he actually needs to be sad in a movie. But in this movie, the actual like long-term effect. effects of, you know, Sam Shubi was joking about this movie being an allegory for the rise of PEDs in baseball. But like this idea of these like fallen titans and these decaying people and guys like Boyd Hobrück who are just like, I'm just version 2.0 and I'm a fan of your work, but I'm here to take you out. Yeah, I mean, in the original Old Man Logan series, Wolverine doesn't unsheath his claws like anymore,

like in the beginning of it. He's just said, I'm not popping him anymore because, you know, when I do it, what happens? People like five dudes die immediately. So he just refuses to do it. And it's, you know, I think, and like I was saying at the beginning, that's part of the core essence of that character, which is he's just like extremely sad. Like he obviously his memory was wiped at one time. But like his is basically his entire experience in life is. People around him are constantly getting killed, and the only thing he can really do about it is stab lots of people.

Yeah. Yeah. They, you know, one of the genius parts about this movie, and it's, I've seen, I rhetorically asked this question. I asked the question in the Logan exit survey that's up on the rear now. But, you know, what character or what property would you want to see Dual Logan, you know, basically make a film that was R-rated and had realistic action sequences or at least. action sequences that had like realistic consequences. And the more I thought about it, actually, even though the piece is already up, part of the reason why you can do a Logan is because these fools have done 17 years or whatever

of being these characters. And I actually feel like, you know, one thing that almost takes you out of the movie, but is probably my favorite part of it in some ways, is Patrick Stewart as Professor X. and it's kind of more like Patrick Stewart playing Professor X. Like there is an exhaustion at almost like carrying the mantle of this character for so long. And that moment where he's like, you know, she's 11, I'm 90, you know, like this kind of self-awareness that happens. You can't just like conjure that up. Deadpool tried to.

Deadpool tried to make this incredibly self-aware meta character. And I think it worked for some people. Deadpool has been around for a while. I think they've tried to make that movie for a while. And that movie is certainly entertaining, but it's going to be hard for somebody to be like, we're going to make the Marsden Cyclops movie that everybody's been waiting for it.

Well, the thing with the X-Men is they're really a family more than a super team. These are outcasts. These are people who have been ostracized by the family, by society. If you want to get super ex-mutant woke about it, like the entire structure of the marvellous. Marvel universe is like built towards like killing mutants.

Like, you know, the Avengers were partly complicit. The, the Sentinels were a government program, you know, like when 20 million mutants were were massacred on Genocia in the comics, the Avengers really just did nothing about it. So they've really only got each other. And that's what and that's what their stories are always about, like these people that are, against all odds are trying to be kind to each other and trying to like maintain empathy for a world that just wants to kill them and so like that relationship between Patrick Stewart and X was great Patrick Stewart was just like throwing 120 miles per hour in this case it was a real

like these are my last three outs like I just I'm not going to come back and do this I'm not going to be in another weird reboot um yeah I did see just going forward and you know this This isn't a spoiler of anything, but there has been rumors. The next one, the next X-Men film that's being made is reported to be directed by Simon Kinberg, who has had a hand in almost every X-Men movie that's been made. And it's reportedly going to be about the Dark Phoenix storyline, even though they've kind of touched on that before, right? Yeah, they kind of, they did it a bit in X2 and last stand, mostly when Gene basically loses control. when she becomes a phoenix and they also did it in x-men apocalypse okay so it's interesting that they i mean that is probably would you say that's the that's sort of like the sort of most beloved

storyline of yeah i would say that's the most famous certainly the most famous x-men storyline and to go back and look at it it unfolded like over such a long period of time and it was like so shocking because jean was one of the weak really considered one of the weaker x-men power-wise And Chris Claremont, the creator, turned around and made her into, at a stroke, basically, the most powerful one and so powerful that it drove her insane. I think that that is a bad idea. Like, if they're going to start at Dark Phoenix, I think that's, I think what the, what the, what Logan really proved to me is that what they need to do now, especially with the way that ended, is they just need to reboot the whole thing. They need to, like, they need to follow what the Avengers did, which is basically base everything. off ultimate um the ultimates and take ultimate x-men make that your template and just start over because

there's too many at this point like there's too many timelines they've gone to the future they're like they've got two like time casts working yeah yeah it's like this is too much they need to they need to start over when you say start over if you had your choice and i i'm pretty sure i know what you're going to say would you rather have that be start over with origin stories or start over in mid-flight with a new team that's like you haven't been seeing this but this new team of X-Men are already in, like... Oh, yeah, that's what I would do. And I would...

This is like, oh, this is for the pure comic heads out there. Mutant Massacre, that's what I would do. Mutant Massacre is this arc from the late 80s where basically it was like house cleaning. There was... At that point in the Marvel Universe, there were all these kind of like extra mutants that didn't really do anything.

Caliban was one of them. They all... Many of them lived in these tunnels under New York City. Oh, right. Right. So they created... So they created this gang of like super villain, um,

super villain mutants whose job there was to wipe all of them out. They were hired just to kill them all. I would, I would start with that. Like, you know, like roll off the, the momentum from Logan, make something like super brutal that shows the stakes of being a mutant in this.

I don't know, like, I don't know whether they can sustain the brutality in, in this franchise outside of, of Wolverine. Like, none of the other characters scream. I mean,

Cablewood kind of, but like none of the other characters really are like, I need to be, like, people need to get decapitated in this movie about Nightcrawler. You mentioned Caliban. I just wanted to touch a little bit on like some of our favorite moments from the movie. And I know that in the post about the movie, you talked a little bit about the conversation that Wolverine and Calaband had after Charles's first seizure, which is so disarmingly human. Like the fact that they're like, Stephen Merchant, you're going to play this as if you are in like a very, straightforward like BBC drama not pure drama but just like very naturalistic even though you are an albino mutant tracker

it's just like such an incredible touch there yeah it was fantastic like and there's it kind of starts off when or it peaks a little bit when when Caliban uh this is semi-spoiler but finds uh brings out Logan's adamantium bullet and sniff it and it's like and you could have taken that dialogue and just changed a few things and that could have been

you know, about drugs or about finding some other thing in any other type of movie, any other drama. It was just great. It was just great. I really liked, I mean, I have to say that part of the reason I love this movie is the action sequences.

They are, we've been really kind of getting into a deep realm of like, CGI city destruction and, you know, aliens coming out of the sky or, you know, what was the name of the damn thing? thing that they could have to fight at the end of Batman versus Superman.

Rock slide. Like, what was that guy's name? It was Doom's Day. Doom's Day. That's right. Doom's Day. That's original. Who killed Superman at one time.

They basically just were like, what if we made the raid into a Western with Logan? And some of these sequences, like, it's actually there's a real art. If you go back and watch, like, Predator, like, some of these really classic 80s action movies, which I feel like I also had like a degree of influence on Mangold here. there's a real art to like how you pace out and build up your action set pieces throughout an action movie so that people aren't like this is just dull dudes throwing each other through buildings and um that el paso escape sequence from the factory that they're living in where like they're basically the best part about it is that they are like hold on and they drive full speed and like the chain link fence doesn't break yeah it doesn't go yeah and you would in any other movie yeah and i just thought that uh the way that they like he executed these action sequences, which I still, I have to just take a second here and mention that for as much as I love the raid, we need to get back to people not running at other people when they have guns. Because that is something that is like amazing when you watch it the first

two or three times, like in John Wick, and you watch the raid, you watch some other Hong Kong stuff and like, a dude with a gun runs at another dude with a gun. Like, that's the whole point of having a gun is that you don't have to run at the guy. Like you're not going to get like a better shot, you know? And so there is a lot of like X23 and Wolverine just like eviscerating special ops guys. We're like, I have to just go in here for a body blow. Even though I have like an automatic weapon. Yeah, the thing I loved about that scene was it kind of reminded me of of aliens, you know, when they first thought.

Yeah, yes. But if Newt was a badass, you know what I mean? Like instead of being really good at hiding and. various places. She was like, I'm not hiding. Yeah. It will take you apart.

And I absolutely love that. Like the way when she's just like sitting there eating her cereal and the guy is like creeping up and she's kind of just watching him out of the corner of her eye. And that was fantastic. Well, all right. Thanks very much for joining me, man. I'm glad this movie is obviously like really going to. It's cool whenever a movie comes out and it ups the ante.

And, you know, if they make another like, you know, if they, when Matt Reeves does another Batman movie, like he's got like another, he's got something to play against now. He's got to try and they've got, there's like a now a movie to top. So that's always a cool moment when you have something like that going.

Oh, I just remembered. Kyle and Yost's X-23 origin story, Innocence Lost is also a good jump in point for people who want to read the comic versions of this. We'll tweet out Jason's comic recommendations with the pod, but thanks always for joining me, man.

Thank you. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back with Allison Herman and talk some TV. Just want to take a quick break to say thanks to our sponsor, SimplySafe. You ever find that when you're out of the house, maybe relaxing with your family and friends, you get that nagging feeling, did I just close that window?

Did I lock that door? You just don't know, and it can drive you nuts. But you don't have to worry about that when you've got Simply Safe home security. It's a nice extra layer of protection just to know that Simply Safe is there. Because thanks to its arsenal of sensors intended to protect your life and home and keep your family safe, simply safe offers an extra layer protection that will put your mind at ease. just recently, SimpliSafe even released a brand new high-definition security camera that connects your security systems to your smartphone.

That way you can see everything that's going on at your home no matter where you are. No more wondering. Best of all, SimplySafe got rid of everything that makes most home security such a pain. No long-term contracts, no hidden fees, they won't gouge you, and it's just $15 a month. That's three times less than what other companies charge. Go check out that new camera. Today, you'll get an exclusive 10% discount when you go to Simplysafe.com slash ringer. that's simplysafe.com slash ringer.

Hey guys, we've all taken jobs to earn a little extra cash back in the day. I used to work at record stores as a lifeguard, anything I can do to make ends meet, but I've got a better way you can earn money on the side. You don't have to be a lifeguard. It's so much easier today, thanks to Uber. Uber is the ultimate side hustle. Driving with Uber is a new way you can earn extra cash whenever you want. It's not just another J-O-B.

It's a flexible way to earn. You can turn it on and off just like your car. And if you have a few spare hours here and there, drive with Uber. Have you ever wanted to be your own? boss, I bet you'd make a great boss. Drive with Uber and you are your own boss. If you're driving right now, you should be earning right now. I'd do it if I had the time. Every day is payday when you drive with Uber because you can cash out anytime with instant pay and with access to instant pay. You cash out your earnings for up to five times a day with no minimum amount required. Listen,

if you enjoy earning extra cash, if there's something special, you'd like to buy it. Your car can start making you money. So go ahead, get your side hustle on. Sign up to drive with Uber today. go to uber.com slash drive now that's uber.com slash drive now uber.com slash drive now okay now I am joined again by alison Herman alison is always nice to have you on how you doing good it's going to be back we're talking about uh this week we're talking about billions big little lies and the good fight um a lot of rich people doing their thing on television lots of nice suits yeah lots of business casual I want to kind of group billions and the good fight together A good fight is obviously the good wife.

Spinoff, sure. And it's on CBS All Access. I don't even know when they're going to break and start putting these on CBS again. But I'm sure enjoying the profanity on it. Yeah, they said that they're not doing it gratuitously, but you can tell the actors are enjoying it, maybe a little too much.

Bartho was like hanging off the rim with a couple of these f-ws. It's like a three-syllable F word every time. Yeah. And I wanted to talk a little bit about billions in good fight together because I was thinking about this. There's a lot of TV on right now, obviously. So a couple things that are in, like, there are multiple season, you know, like season three, season two, whatever.

You can even say, to some extent, like, for as much work as the Good Fight had to do over the first couple of episodes, that it's like season 10 of something, you know, in some ways. Especially, like, even if it's about different topics, I think that they're using a lot of the same mechanics that Good Wife did really well. And obviously, a lot of the same characters. Yeah. There was some gossip about how many people were involved

and who conspicuously was not involved and so on and so forth. I actually couldn't remember Matthew Perry's on episode four. I don't remember him from Goodwife. I must have been like a part that I skipped over. Yeah, I think it was maybe four or five episodes. He's not as prominent as someone like Elspeth or obviously Diane. Yeah, right.

But he's more in the Deniso hair level of, oh, that guy. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. So there's something that these two shows, Billions, and surprisingly with Billions, because Billions was so, like, married to this. Like, it's Chuck versus Axe. forever in the cage.

There are ensemble shows. Most television shows are ensemble casts, like multiple, multiple characters. But what these two shows are doing really well right now are ensemble stories. So basically, they have leveled out a lot of the narrative stuff

where it's actually quite engaging to just be locked into it for the 45 to an hour that it's on. And it's like really expert serial storytelling. And it's like this weird hybrid of we're going to tell this one major story. And, you know, the Good Fight's major story is yet to be determined.

I think they had started with a very Diane-centric one, but it's now kind of dissipated to Maya and everything else. But it is kind of a lost art, right? Of being able to, this would be like A plot, B plot, C and D and E plot within one episode of television with all of these really good character actors kind of getting a lot of stuff to chew on. This is basically my wags. This is my wags speech.

This is your grand theory. I mean, I actually think that's really interesting with the good fight because they're straddling this really interesting line of their spinoff of a procedural, but they're on the internet. So obviously they can say fuck all the time. But they can also have slightly longer episodes. They have their episode order is only at 10 as opposed to 22. And so I feel like going in, there's kind of this open question of what extent are they going to do case of the week versus longer term storytelling. And at least my impression is I've seen four episodes. They're still trying to figure that out. There are certain week-to-week, self-contained storylines that are just go to a courtroom, hammer it out. Day from happy endings operating on a Syrian refugee from like over Skype.

Yeah, right. Yeah, so there's that. And then I actually think kind of one of the weaknesses is I do think they do, they have an overarching story, which is the Bernie Madoff, blatant stand-in. It's sort of the stand-in for what Peter Florex's public disgrace was to the first series.

they're kind of, it's the same, so the same scandal for context. Rob's Diane Lockhart of her life savings because it's her college best friend and the daughter is obviously buried in a public scandal and both of them go to work

in a new firm. And I think that's what they're trying to be trying to make into the long-term storytelling and at least right now it doesn't feel like the daughter who's played by Rose Leslie is really that organically integrated

into the rest of the show. And it's like, she's the C-plot of every episode. Yeah. But you're still kind of more more invested in Kosh Jumbo or Delroy Lindo. And it's really interesting because they also, the new firm that they work at is a historically black firm.

They're doing really interesting thematic stuff with what it means to bring in a bunch of white employees and how that's affecting the ensemble. So I definitely agree that they're doing some really interesting long-term story there. But I also think it's interesting because you can feel them trying to strike that balance. The third episode was my favorite by far.

I thought that was just incredible. The fourth one definitely felt like buzzword bingo, where it was like Trump voters, police brutality, fake news, Twitter bots. It was like some kind of like Reddit like WordCloud came out and they like wrote an episode around it. Whereas the third episode I thought had good Maya stuff, had great Diane stuff, had awesome Del Rolando stuff. And it just like kind of all made sense and it was really buzzing at like in a way where it's just I'm after coming out of young Pope and taboo, which are both really really good. shows in their own way, but are definitely like, more walking. We're walking more now by a river or maybe in the Vatican, but we're still walking for a while and there's some music playing.

This was like, no, we don't have any time for that. Like, we're going story, story, story, story. It's nice to chew through some plot. It's interesting that you say that with billions. My impression with billions this season is I can't tell if it took me this long to get on the same page as the show or the show is just leaning into it. But I feel like it's kind of embracing its identity as camp for straight men. finally.

Let me tell you, as a sample size of one, yes. Yeah, I still think, I mean, Maggie Siff is, poor Maggie Siff. She's doing the only, like, straight-faced performance on the show that's, like, actively, you know, empathetic. Because I feel like she's still, like, you guys, I thought this was supposed to be, like, kind of a, like, a reality-based show. Like, marriages and business and, like, all this stuff falling apart. And, like, Damien Lewis has taken all the fuel restrictor place. off his car. Like, he is, like, every second he is on screen,

he is making wild dream catcher faces. But Maxif is like... I mean, we haven't even talked about the closer of last night's episode where he looks basically into the camera and says, good thing, I'm a fucking rich man. Yeah. I mean, but, like, I think that if you're going to do a show,

like, that's gonna... It's on showtimes. It's probably going to be on for eight years. Like, you gotta, like, be what you are sometimes. And Billions as a... essay about the post-financial crash state of the financial industry and the legal system is like, fine.

But Billions is a show about these, like, completely over-the-top characters who are, like, constantly backstabbing each other. And every case, every episode, they're just basically like, what would be insane? What if Damien Lewis

tried to buy an NFL team, but also played in a heads-up, like, no-limit Hold'n poker game while Wags was getting like IV drips because he drinks $800. bottles of whiskey every night. I mean, this is like so over the top. I really enjoy it. I mean, speaking of ensemble storytelling,

one thing Billions has notably done is just unloaded dump truck of new characters. Like, there are at least half a dozen that I can count off the top of my head. And I think the best one is actually this gender neutral intern and Chris and associate.

Yeah, Taylor, she goes by gender neutral pro, they go by gender neutral pronouns. I could not believe that the first episode of the season has a subplot about Raya the dating app, and the second one actively talks about the singular they is a thing that socially progressive people should have done. It's also Billions is great restaurant porn. They literally are like, just like what is the top hit on eater?

It's just like. Four-star sushi restaurant. Exactly. I'm really into Gus, the therapist, but not the therapist. I'm super into Taylor. Taylor as a poker legend is great. Well, and I think Taylor especially works because they, their whole schick is that they're totally dispassionate.

They have this almost Asperger's-y cold ability to look at everything objectively. And when you put a person who's that objective and has that kind of even keel in this hive of dick swinging, they can kind of look around and be like, all of you are insane, Dady Strong, you're a man-baby. Yeah. I can just own you. Dany Strong is a great man-baby, by the way. Oh, my God. It was perfect.

He's having a good year between his Gilmore Girls cameo and this one. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like there is a pleasure to shows that know what they are and start clicking. And I just feel like, you know, Gibney directed, Alex Gibney directed the last one. These episodes, like, move pretty quickly. And I do think that now that they are going, like, well, at any given episode, we can go 12 to 15 characters deep with speaking parts. And everybody is just, like, absolutely over the top. There's no, like, subtlety, with the exception of pretty much Wendy, who's like,

oh no you have to you're blinking so that to tell it's like okay well you're like yeah I like sell it you know like I also think it's funny because Billions is now and it's third week and just this week feud Ryan Murphy's new show premiered and feud is about two middle age women just showboating and aggressively fighting with each other for

peer camp value and Billions is about two middle age men showboating and aggressively fighting with each other for camp value and it's good to have you know something for all people in this very specific genre Speaking of camp value, let's talk a little about Bigelow Lies. Oh boy. So I am still, I really like this show. Like it is just incredibly well-made, like David E. Kelly knows how to write television.

And just is the level, it's a real testament to like where great acting can take pretty good material or average material. I mean, it's not like mind-blowing like thematically or like story-wise. But like Reese Witherspoon. and I actually think Laura Dern are quite like lit right now and like it's just takes it to another level. I mean, once you start talking performances, Witherspoon is great, Dern is great, Kidman is great, Shailene Woodley, who I have not been a huge fan of up until this point,

I think really holds her own against a really intimidating peer group. Zoe Kravitz is fun. She's not, I think she's given the least to do of everyone, but when she gets times to shine, she shines. I really, really enjoy this show. and part of the reason is I'm from coastal California. Oh, yeah. I have seen what new money like that looks like, and it is very accurate.

Glass boxes on the ocean full of red wine and regret. Yeah, it looks like kindergarten pickups with a lot of Dolce and Gabana in the mix. And it's very on point. I also think David E. Kelly does a solid job. I think some of the dialogue is a little too. It is what it is. You're a six-year-old tuna with David Bowie. is and stuff like that.

But I also think, like, Jean-Marc Ballet is a really good job here. And the way he captures the Golden Hour Kitchen Porn is pretty amazing to look at. And I think it's... There's a degree to which I think that there's, like, Andy and I always joke about, like, it's basically the bloodline trope of, like, someone does something terrible. And they're like, am I a bad man? You know, and that kind of is happening on Big Little Lies where somebody does something terrible. and they're like, am I overreacting? Am I suffocating my daughter?

Reese Southerst Food is always overreacting to everything. Yeah, but I do all these shots where it's like someone longingly staring in their rearview mirror, you know, that's like a nice way of just taking the foot off the gas a little bit with like some of the sort of more sensationalistic aspects of the show. And to respond to the white people problems thing, I think this show is importantly distinct from something like, I don't know, modern family where you can tell it's kind of taking affluence as the base point and just sort of assuming like, yeah, this is what families look like. They're all just kind of rich and live in really nice houses and have white collar jobs. And this one knows how wealthy and privileged these people are. It makes a point of pointing that out repeatedly, both for pleasure and to make fun of them. And so I found it easier to both laugh at them for that, but also relate to their very real problems,

like Nicole Kidman's marriage, or you see the Reese Witherspoon is like a genuinely unhappes unhappy person you really feel for her in her way. And I think the show does a really good job of like getting what is unlikable and unrelatable and unappealing about them right out front, partially through the Greek chorus thing, which I think. Yeah, let's talk about the Greek chorus thing because that's an interesting, it feels like a very pilot gambit. It's like what you would put in a pilot and then they've really stuck with it.

And I thought the third episode was the one where it bothered me the most tonally because it's obvious, like, you've got the Nicole Kidman, Alexander Scarsgard scenes. the therapy and the abuse scenes and the dance, you know. And then you've also got Shailene Woodley admitting to being raped to Reese Witherspoon when she's never talked about before and like all the complicated feelings that are coming out of that. And then they'll do those cuts and they'll like, she was so mad, but she was all so sexy. You know, and it's just like it's like sort of like a strange gear shift in the middle

of an episode and multiple times of the episode. How did it play with you this time? I mean, I think the murder mystery becomes increasingly unnecessary to hold our attention, particularly once you start ratcheting up the stakes by revealing that Nicole Kidman is an abusive marriage. And I think it's also kind of an unforced error in the sense that you could tease the murder stuff maybe a little more regularly in the non-cuttaways. But because what you're seeing happen in real time is so disconnected from what you're seeing happen in the future, it's hard to reconcile those and it feels more and more jarring as you cut away. And also it just gets repetitive. like the press conference.

There's only so many ways in which you can say this body was really fucked up guys. Something really bad just happened. And you have like 17 different shots of the woman detective saying something. Lighting a cigarette but not lighting a cigarette. Or just being like there were many injuries. The bones were broken here.

Yeah. And so I think that is actually maybe the show's biggest structural weakness but I'm really impressed by it so far. And for reference, I got, critics got the first six out of the seven total. they're doing that Night of style. Like we don't want to spoil the whodunit.

So everything except that. It took like physical restraint for me not to watch all of this in one sitting. Sure. And I still got through it in like under 24 hours. It is so fun to watch. It is so addictive. And after I watch it, I still think about it. Yeah.

Do you think that in terms of the discourse around the show, which I'm not actually that much up on it, but like night of kind of got swallowed by like the different theories about what could have happened or who was the murderer, if not Nas? Do you feel like that's going to kind of become a bigger part of the, without giving anything away, do you feel like that's going to become a bigger part of the way we talk about in this show? Well, I think this has the advantage slash disadvantage relative tonight of of being based on publicly available source material. I guess so. So I actually spoiled myself on the murder by reading the Wikipedia summary of Landmore Hark's original novel. The internet is such a minefield, man.

So, I mean, I don't think it's unavoidable, but it's there if you're curious about it. And it would kind of help me in the sense that I don't, that doesn't have to be the filter through which I look at the show. So I think it kind of has that advantage in terms of not being a mystery box show. But I'll be curious to actually see like even knowing where it's headed. I'm very curious to see like how they resolve it in the filmed version of it and whether the ending is going to change how we see. Oh yeah, of course.

Before we go, I wanted to say, because you wrote about Adam Palley today on The Ringer, And I watched the pilot of making history. That's on next. Is that coming? When is that air? So the pilot aired last night, actually, on Sundays on Fox. So Fox is doing this really cool. I think it's sort of in tandem with their animation block,

but they have this kind of Sunday night comedy thing going on. It's basically a partnership with Phil Lord and Chris Miller. Oh. Where instead of doing just straightforward like family sitcom or workplace sitcom, they have this kind of clearinghouse for much more high concept in Zanee. weird ideas. So the first one was Last Man on Earth, which is The Apocalypse Happens, but a comedy. Yeah. Son of Zorn, which is He-Man mixed with live action. So that's kind of counterintuitive.

And then this one is time travel, but a comedy. Yeah, right. And it's got Adam Pally, who's, I think, both of one of our favorite kind of comic actors on TV over the last few years. He's a delight. And Leighton Meester back in the building after a few years away from television. I really enjoyed it. It's really funny if people get a chance to see the pilot. And it also strikes me as the kind of show that's going to get better and better as it goes on. Because it's such a high concept pilot, they kind of have to do a lot of, and this happens, and then this happens, and this is what the stakes are.

It's also funny because they do get rid of a lot of exposition by instead of being like, and this is how time travel works. They're like, I found a duffel bag. That's how it works. But also, so like I said, it fits in really well with what Fox is doing right now. But it also is this bizarre coincidence of like every single network has done some version of a time travel show. And it's been.

What's the one with Abigail Spencer? Timeless. And then what's the one with Jack the Ripper, but in the future or in the present day? Time after time. Yes. Sexy H.G. Wells, the show. So that one is the most. What's his face from?

Freddy Stroma from Unreal and Game of Thrones. That's right. Yeah. Okay. So he's clearly having fun with it. But I think while that is definitely like supposed to be soapy and fun and dishy, this one is much more conscious of the joke and actually like makes the driving force of its humor is time travel is like cool as a concept. And then when you actually think about how shitty the past used to be, it's super not fun.

Okay, great. Well, we'll check out Making History, Billions, Big Low Lies, and Good Fire, all worth your time. We'll have to have you on for the end of Big Little Lies for sure. I'm so excited to talk about it. All right. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me. Thank you to Crowd Cow for sponsoring today's episode.

CrowdCow lets you buy the very best beef from Happy Cows, raised on open pastures of small, sustainable ranches. without any growth hormones or any growth stimulating antibiotics. You can't find premium high-aged beef like this anywhere else, including high-end supermarkets or specialty stores. And our listeners, you can get $10 off your first order when you go to crowdcow.com slash watch. That's crowdcow.com slash watch. Thanks again to Uber.

Get your side hustle on. Sign up to drive with Uber and earn extra cash whenever you want. It's totally flexible. You're your own boss and can cash out up to five times a day with no minimum amount required. Sign up at uber.com slash drive now. That's ubeer.com slash drive now.