The Watch - Ep. 18: 'The Watch'

Episode Date: February 11, 2016

Chris and Andy celebrate the return of Jason Bourne, break down Beyoncé's big weekend, discuss Kanye's tough Tuesday on Twitter, and talk in-depth about the Bronco episode of FX's 'The People v. O.J. Simpson: American Crime Story.' Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Seatkeek is giving $20 back off your first purchase with the code BSPN. To get $20 back on your first Seat Geek purchase, download the Seatkeek app today and enter promo code BSPN. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch on the Channel 33 podcast feed. My name is Chris Ryan and joining me in my office. He just got back from a Romanian bare-knuckle boxing fight and taking green walls. It feels good in here.

It's cozy though. Stuffy. We're up here in the new podcast studio. Studio Podcast Studio B. I'm christening it. My name is Chris. This is Andy. You are listening to The Watch.

You can subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, and SoundCloud. Just look for Channel 33. What's up? It kind of feels like the diner scene in heat right now. We're just staring at each other in a small room. Yeah. I don't remember if in the diner scene there were two other dudes sitting really, really close to De Niro. Yeah, I don't think they were drinking Laquois in the diner scene either, if you know what I'm saying.

No, but they should have because it is. They don't sponsor us, but it's very refreshing. Andy, we are coming to you live from Los Angeles on a Tuesday night, but we're going to be speaking a little bit about the second episode of the People versus O.J. Simpson. We're also going to talk a little bit about Beyonce's formation, maybe a little bit of billions. Maybe. And we're going to talk a little bit about Kanye West's an interesting day on Twitter.

But first, we have to go in or out. We have to start with the man who started it all. Jason Bourne back. This is a very exciting day for us. Can we do a little backstory? Can we talk a little history here? Yes, we like Jason Bourne. We really like Jason Bourne movies.

I said to someone the other day, when was the last time you watched the Born Legacy? And they looked at me like I just said, when's the last time you slapped your mother? I was like, you don't understand that everything born is good. And we're here for Born Expanded Universe. I was really into the adventures of Aaron Cross. You know that I would love to have at least a web series about Joan Allen after hours. Like when Pam Landy leaves the office. What's the Adams Mark Bar scene like for Pam Landy?

Is she a Pino Gris Gorge gal? Does she like the Shards? Or more like Archie Punjabi and Juliana Margoly's just straight tequila. But I see, what is that? Is that a good wife reference? I don't like to make good wife references. It's not something I'm into. So, okay, backstory here.

We love these movies. We were totally down with Renner, Aaron Cross. But we always held out hope. We always held out hope that Damon would come back, the greengrass would come back. And in the trailer, 30 seconds in the Super Bowl, there's a moment. There's not much dialogue, a lot of action, a lot of punches thrown. But someone says, why would he come back now? And I think the answer to that is his behavior.

on Project Greenlight. Yeah, well, I mean... And the box office performance of Elysium. I think that's why he came back now. So the last, the last born film that Matt Damon was in was the board ultimatum in 2007. So it's almost 10 years, right? We saw that together in a movie theater in the East Village. It's fantastic.

And when the born, uh, when the born identity came out in 2002, it almost single-handedly revived, made Matt Damon a international box office superstar. It completely changed the perception of Damon. And it was like a completely fresh. exhilarating take on like the international assassin story. And kind of of action movies because it was, here's the thing. People think about it as like Greengrass's movies because they love supremacy and ultimatum. They were raved about.

I still ride for the first one. I love all of them. The Doug Lyman. But I think Doug Lyman's born identity is secretly the best movie of all of them. Partly because of its tone just like how it was so refreshing that it was such an international movie. it was exciting the characters were interesting he fought with magazines Clive Owen is just hanging out in a field

magazines magazines magazines are phone books but it's also we're saying how unlikely all this is because Matt Damon was not an action star no Doug Lyman like it was a troubled production right

like he shot just enormous amounts of film all over the world the script was being constantly reworked by our man Tony Gilroy who was not involved Isn't it amazing how every five years Doug Lyman makes a movie and each one of them is just like plagued

with like, and Doug Lyman shot more film than there is ocean. The budget disasters. Yeah. And they're always, with the exception of a few, like, with the exception of a few movies, Doug Lyman doesn't make bad movies. With the exception of the few bad movies he's made, looking at you, jumper. Yeah. Like, go, dope movie.

Yeah. Well, that's right. He did, yeah, that's what it was released under. We loved that movie. Didn't he also make the Valerie Plame movie? Yeah, with Sean Penn and old Naomi. That's fine. Okay, we're off track here.

Born's back. We have high expectations for this. And Greengrass is back, telling me. So, like, initially Matt Damon said he's never going to make another born movie without Paul Greengrass. And Paul Greengrass was like, I have other stories I want to tell. He had been working on a civil rights project about Memphis that, I don't know if ever came together or if he was still going to make that.

But obviously... He was working on dealing with a horrible palsy in his camera hand. He tried and finally address that. Yes, and after making Captain Phillips, now he has come back to this world. And here is where I do the least, littlest, most minimally required amount of hedging about this movie. I know where you're going, and I share it with it. This movie looks like Fight Club meets Fast and Furious. So are you saying that is a good thing or a bad thing?

Well, in my mind, that's a good thing, but there is a very special thing that that trilogy of movies did. Right, and that was kind of why Matt Damon was like, I don't really know what else we do with this character. I don't know what Ludlum does with it because, you know, my ludlums are on my old Kindle. But I just, it looks like that there is a little bit of Jason Bourne's back because it really was financially sensible for us to do that. That's the concern. Yeah. They even dug my man Tommy Lee out of the box, man. If you think Julie Stiles, it's just waiting by the phone, waiting by the phone for that jump off again.

If you think about how specific the story was... Did it get through a full ring when they called Stiles? No. No, they picked it up before it even started ringing on the person. They're like, oh, is this... Did we connect? They're like... It actually goes to an answering service, and it's like, if it comes from Universal,

it's like, you've reached Julia Stiles, yes. Absolutely, I'm in. Julia, actually didn't hang up the phone. I actually like Julia Stiles a lot. I don't know her personally, but... I love Julia Stiles. She should pro-stiles. We need more.

But, yeah, the story was so specific about the mystery of this guy that think about the needle threading that they did to even make it a trilogy. Yeah. They had to continually retcon more backstory, most of which involved Albert Finney. And the third movie basically took place in between the last scenes of the second movie. Do you remember that? And one of the reasons these movies worked. Right, where he shows up in Russia, right?

Well, in Pam Landy's office, my girl. That's right. But you think about you need Damon to make these movies apparently. You need Greengrass. there's someone, there's an ingredient missing from the gumbo. Yeah. And that's Tony Gilroy. I thought you were going to say that's Carl Urban.

Well, he makes a delicious stew. Remember the scene? I think it's in this. First of all, I'm going to say yes. Like Julie Stiles, I do remember it. When the homies go find Carl Urban in the Russian vodka bar in the middle of the day. And he's like, I'm on vacation. They're like, well, you've got to go kill this guy.

He's like, fine. Let's do it. But Tony Gilroy, who is a brilliant screenwriter and director. wrote Born Legacy. He wrote, well, he wrote and directed Born Legacy. He was the credited writer on all three of the other movies. And there was some, like, disputes about, like, Matt Damon, not so subtly. It was, like, you know, the extent to which Tony Gilroy, like, crafted those movies is...

To the extent that they made it up as they went along. Yeah, right, exactly. The vibe that we got. And so then they gave him the franchise with Legacy, and then they, I guess, they weren't happy with it or whatever. But he's not involved in this. And so I don't know if that's good or bad because we don't know how much he contributed. But I do think that some of the... elegance of those movies.

Sure. We should take into the context that this was aired, the teaser ad that we're kind of basing all this off of, was aired during the Super Bowl. So obviously the fact that most of it is comprised of cars running over other cars, dudes Vincent Cassell shooting a machine gun and Matt Damon really hitting guys. Hitting guys, super hard. Super hard. Like Wolverine Berserker Hard.

Yeah. Is like, I think telling, it's a bit more about the context. They were like, let's make maximum impact in 30 seconds. Right. I feel like the middle of the Super Bowl. is not the time to show the ad that is just someone drinking, day drinking, and a vodka bar being like, I've made so many mistakes with my life.

Like, jerky camera work while Matt Damon's like, austerity measures. It's Snowden. Yeah, exactly. The world. Which is what he said this movie's about. Yeah, and that's not really clear from the trailer, I would say. The born Greek austerity.

I'm just the born austere. What else could they have called it? Like, they're still good. That's the last part that, the only thing that, and, you know, Sean actually, who we work with, and he always, you know, has like a, the right thing to say about these things. He has a dart.

He was like, look, man, you can't have Jason Bourne be like, I know who I am now. The whole point of Jason Bourne is he doesn't know who he is. Yeah, I mean, I think what were the other, they could have done the, like, the sort of prequel, born yesterday. They could have done that.

They could have done, I mean, I know I'm just mostly hung up on the puns now. Yeah. Like, what else could they have done? What's the, um, born free, they could have called it. They could have called it born free. Oh, that wouldn't good. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I guess the idea is by, born to run. But. Oh, that's what the first one should have been called. How are they not done Born to Run? Because they're probably not, like, quirky pun writers. No, because when you can, listen, when you can name a blockbuster, the Bourne supremacy, which literally means nothing.

Yeah. Did you ever pick up a Bourne book? Do you have your Ludlums under your milk? Actually, I'm unfamiliar with this report. I picked up one of them once, and it was just like, Jason Bourne going to a carnival in Kansas. Oh, yeah. That's not like, because that's when he knows who he. And he goes to his family.

He goes back, because they mentioned that briefly in one of them where it's like. But they generally just scrapped it. Yeah. The whole backstory. Look, we hear on the watch, all four of us in this room, those of us with microphones and those of us without, I think support smart popcorn movies. We want non-stupid action films. And I just hope this is generally the one that we root for. This is the one that is good.

It's a great franchise. I'm sure it's going to be good. And either way, I can't wait for the sequel to this movie, which will be Matt Damon fighting Jeremy Renner while Edward Norton plays Ashley Schaefer. from you spouting down and just goes, let the boy watch. I would like that, but I thought the sequel to this would be Matt Damon fighting off Julia Stiles' agents.

Because they're like, please make another one. Please make another one. Okay, so we're obviously on Jason Bourne. Couldn't be more. Let's talk a little bit about the actual major news that came out of culture this weekend, which was Beyonce releasing a surprise single, although if you kind of read the T-leaves,

it wasn't that much of a surprise since she was going to be playing the Super Bowl. Right. It's been a minute since Beyonce blessed us. But, like, Formation came out on Saturday with a video. and I think we I don't mean to speak for you and you can speak for yourself but this is one of the few times in like life when something like few times in pop culture when something actually matches the hype yes and you kind of feel the full power of pop music to be a transformative electrifying force Saturday night I was I was meeting someone in city and I heard tell of this this track being released and I like was freezing cold just ducked into Chelsea Market where there were some tourists enjoying

some espressoes. They were again some urban taco experiences like Korean tacos. And there was like an abandoned I think the Arapa people just cleared out in a hurry. So I just bellied up to that empty bar and watched this video on my phone

and got so hype. The German tourists didn't understand. Here was my, the first feeling that I had when I watched this video was it did the impossible. It made me want to write about pop music again. Yeah.

Which was a field we were generally happy to leave behind. When watching this video, watching not only how it stopped time and got everyone talking about it, but seeing just how wild and interesting and brave and smart and provocative it was made me a believer again in the power of pop music, the pop song, the pop video as one of the best vehicles. Yeah. For all of those adjectives I just said, for this much thought. Like, you can just do things. You can be bold and you can be brash and you can get in everyone's face immediately with a well-time song and well-time video. And it's just exciting.

And second, the song is a banger. The song is terrific. But the visuals are really, really incredible. Yeah, they are fantastic. It's like this, obviously a lot of this sort of deeply symbolic imagery of Old South and New South. I mean, there's been a lot of really good writing about it. My takeaways basically were this kind of reminds me of when, And I don't mean to be hysterical about it.

But it kind of reminds me when Paranoid Android came out. And it wasn't out of nowhere, but I don't think anybody was quite ready for that statement to be made by that artist. And that single and then that album kind of rendered all around it, not irrelevant, but just kind of like, what are you doing with your career? Yes. Because look what this person's doing with their career. But also I would say this, that like when an artist crosses the Rubicon from star to superstar to just global phenomena. One of the things that is left behind in addition to often basic humanity, if we believe ego stories that we hear from like the biggest stars in the world, is engagement with the world, engagement with anything political, engagement with anything that is happening on a boots on the ground level of the culture or even of the world in politics. And so for someone who is a brand ambassador, both of her own and does commercials for Pepsi, someone who's going to appear on the Super Bowl the next day during which she's,

would dance with the lead singer of Coldplay on a giant Pepsi logo to make this song that's so aggressively and provocatively, and I think brilliantly engaged with Black Lives Matter movement, to say, yes, I am the biggest star in the world and I will stop time and everyone will get excited about my dance moves, but I am connecting to blackness in a way that is public and the way that is honest and the way that is, you know, some of her fans would be not put off by, but would be challenged by. Yeah, that's the whole thing. And I think that, you know, our friend and former colleague Wesley Morris wrote that in The Times, along with John Carmonica and Jenna Wortham.

There was a great sort of roundtable they did right after the piece dropped. And that is powerful. Yeah. Outside of the music, I think you can have like a real appreciation for the way that she manages as a career. Like I admire the control she has over her message. I admire the value she places on her own words. And watching. her obviously orchestra.

It's like watching the friggin' German soccer team beat Brazil to see her be like, you're going to drop the single, you're going to win the Super Bowl, and then you're going to announce a tour. And when you drop this single, there's already merch ready to be bought that is like based on this. You are going to perform a song that is

12 hours old in the public consciousness on the biggest stage on her. And she didn't even do the stage. She did the field so that she could get all of her dancers who were dressed like Black Panthers meet Michael Jackson's Super Bowl performance. Yep. To do it. I mean, that's mind-blowing. Do you feel that you manage your own brand with that level of precision? Is that what you were saying?

Well, you know, I've been thinking about the way people have been managing their brands today, weirdly. And I think that, you know, I'm, Beyonce's, there's a contrast to Kanye West. There's a case to be made for rigid control or a case to be made for anarchic freedom. Right. And then there's 2013 Amanda Bindsflow. There's also, which we'll get to. There's also something to be said about just, just quiet. I guess not quietly, proudly ethering everyone, including supposed friends and allies.

Like basically, Rihanna's, you know, Doug from Tidal accidentally releases Rihanna's album. And then Beyonce is like, oh, no, no, no, this is how you do a rollout. Right. She basically, you know, she Wally Pips Coldplay on their biggest moment of their career for a while. And Kanye's record is supposed to come out this week. Kanye's record supposed to come out in 48 hours, stop. And apparently still working on it. We're coming back to him.

change the name again. Yes. But it was impressive. But I do, the only thing that bums me out is I just want people to engage. I wish that it was possible. I know this is like utopian thinking. But I think the song is amazing. But the entire production is really, let's just say it's a rich text.

It is worth the hype and attention. And it is not just about, oh, we worship the celebrity. Oh, she's so perfect. She's great. This is really interesting work from someone on that level. All in on formation. All in. we have spent a lot of time over the last couple of weeks getting ready for swish

getting ready for waves yeah i got ready for waves i was ready for so help me god yeah me too i was even ready for t lop is that what they were calling it is that not is it not that again what's it stand for we don't know i i heard uh the laws of physics the laws of perfection i saw somebody tweet today i can't remember who was just like i don't know if conier Kanye might have been awake for a month right now. Yeah. Because he's also prepping his fashion line, which is having a big debut show at Madison Square Garden on Thursday night,

where apparently he was, I don't know whether he was going to, like, pump the record through the speakers or perform the record. Debut it, we have no idea. But debut this album that he's been working on since Jesus, or it's the follow-up to Jesus. And he's been having, like, some jumpy times on Twitter. And last week, I think we were celebrating a little bit about how, like, look, man, you want to play with fire. Sometimes you get burned.

Kanye's pretty, like, pretty, pretty. volatile? Volatile. And what do you want from your celebrities? And he's burning the midnight oil. Yeah, I think so. And the Wiz Khalifa tussle was one thing. And people rightly pointed out that there was like some some really questionable stuff in there about

Amber and about the kid. And then the fact that at the end of it, we should have known when he went on that rant and then realized like KK was not even about him or his family. Yeah. And he was just like, oh, my bad. My bad. That was. I just Adam bombed, a human family.

family. Yeah. My bad. So today, I earlier, this is Tuesday, and earlier in the day, I was like, you know what, Kanye's vibe on Twitter has been kind of weird. It's jump, it's twitchy. Yeah, some real low-res JPEGs. And I'll also say, though, it's always, he's always doing something different. And we, in general, I believe, I'll speak for us, I'm into the window into his process. Yeah. Like, he has decided to make this run up to Yeezy season, both clothing and album, completely transparent. in a way that I like. I mean, I like the fact that he's like, here's a picture of just some dudes, including Gabe DeSoreo, just sitting around a weird, carpeted room. Kendrick and him listening to Madlib's beat CDs is great. And then, like, even today, I don't, can't be honest with you.

I don't really care about the sneakers, but he does. And so seeing how, when he's screenshoting his intense emails about how the merch table is not a perfect crystal or cylinder, whatever he was saying, like, this is all in keeping with who he is. We're seeing it into the window. It's not always pretty, but we're seeing stuff and it's fine.

And then he slipped a baby Ruth into the swimming pool. And said, in all caps, Bill Cosby is innocent. In the midst of this long run about, like, look at the model wearing this shirt and coat. And Kylie Jenner is not making a Puma shoe. Well, I was pretty relieved about that. Yeah. This is bad. Like, I'm not, like, this is real bad.

He shouldn't do it on that. I hope he doesn't think that. I hope this is part of some sort of performance art piece that, like, tomorrow morning we're going to wake up and find out that, like, somebody stole Kanye's Twitter blogging. I'm not going to, you know what I'm... I'm not going to... I mean, I don't want filtered Kanye, but I'm... It's indefensible for him to be popping off about something so gross, so overt.

And so it's just for him to be so stupid is... It's a bummer. Yeah, it's the... For those of us who will defend him for just about anything. It's also the flame-touching thing that we were talking about a couple weeks ago. It's like you want your artists to feel like they have an edge and then it's serrated. And it's tough to, nobody, we like this guy more than any musician of our adult lives. So to have this sucks, to have this happen 48 hours before an album that we've probably been anticipating more than any other comes out.

And I think this album is going to be amazing. I do. Like I am so excited by, as we were saying, actually kind of, like, not even taking aside. I don't even want to take that comment out of context, but putting aside what that comment is about. Yeah. There was like a real clarity of thought and not humility, but there was a real clarity to the music that he had been releasing. Yes, that's what that.

That felt like very calm and adult and beautiful, you know, which is not necessarily, he doesn't have to make that music. I'm also like, I think Jesus is a masterpiece. Like he can make angry, you know, Hudson Mohawk beats if he wants to, or have Hudson Mohawk make the beats for him. But I was loving real friends and no more parties in L.A. Yeah. I thought those songs were incredible.

I was looking forward to the... Six months ago, we were like, maybe this is the first time that this artist that we love seems tentative. Like he doesn't know what 38-year-old Kanye West at this level of success with these kids, with his myriad focus as who he is musically. Then all of a sudden he figured it out.

And there's that line I know parties in L.A. about how people thought, the writer's block is over. He's got it. And it was of a piece. It felt consistent. He was getting that, my beautiful dark twisted fantasy vibe again

by like Ubering Andre 3000. And it was, despite It's a gospel record. Kirk Franklin is your ditty is here French mon. I want him saying crazy things like that

but then don't don't don't it's just a dummy it's dumb it's a literally a bad thing to think yeah

like I don't want to police people's like freedom of speech but this sucks that he thinks this it sucks because we are ready to just lose it over this record

and that's what I wish this was about and weirdly that's clearly it's what he wishes it was about too because then he's like he immediately just kept tweeting other stuff

right and well it's a funny thing is that the last thing he tweeted, or well, he's tweeted a lot of stuff, but one of the things he's tweeted right after saying Bill Cosby is innocent was a picture of a flames emoji that had been taped inside of his microphone booth. In the booth, right? Yeah.

Which is very interesting to compare to to juxtapose with what would Mobb Deep do, which is the famous printout he had hanging around the studio in Hawaii when he made Twisted Fantasy. I don't see that here in your new office though, by the way. You should put that up here. We'll rectify that. What would Mob Deep blog? The The juxtaposition of those two things, it's like, I have lost it.

I've lost like my touch. It's now it's just flame emoji is like, all I'm thinking. I can't even put these things into words anymore. It's just hot takes. Yeah. I know. I'm out on it. I mean, I...

Who? Okay, just before we move on, who's the one who's just like, let me hold the phone. Let me hold your iPhone. Like who is the person at this point? Nobody can, right? Nobody. I'm just trying to imagine who that person is. That dude just got a fashion show.

what, Madison Square Garden on Thursday and he's changing the name of his... Like, that album is not coming out on Friday. But isn't it possible, like, for quote unquote an album to come out, what does that even mean now? He could just post it on SoundCloud? He should just be like, I'm not...

It's certainly not a backseat drive his career. But why not just like do the... If you're reading this, it's too late and just like, I don't know or drop like a Good Friday mixtape again. He's doing a thousand things, including being a dumb-dum. Like, he's doing so many things at once.

But it's, we live in public, man. He's really, really out there. And to contrast that with Beyonce's precision rollout is remarkable. Yeah, all right, well, we're out on that. We'll take a quick break and get back into OJ. Our sponsor today is HBO Now. HBO Now is the new way to stream all episodes of HBO series and all of their documentaries, sports and specials,

plus the biggest and latest hit movies before any other streaming service out there. And there is no TV package required. Download the app on your phone. favorite device to start your 30-day free trial instantly. That's HBO now. Get it. We're back talking about People v. O.J. Simpson. This has just become not a, I guess, is it a phenomenon?

I think people are pretty psyched on it. Yeah. People are pretty into it. We are recording this the night, the Bronco Chase episode airs. Yeah. So we can only speculate how excited people are going to be about it. This is obviously one of the most iconic things that have happened in media and sports and television news.

in the last 30 years. And yet, this is like the first time we've seen it dramatized what was going on. Inside. Yeah. Inside the car. Inside the, inside with AC and OJ. And I didn't know that that wasn't the brought. That wasn't his car.

I didn't know that either. This is when the show started to like pay dividends on reasons beyond entertainment. Like I actually didn't know that. And that's true that AC worshipped him so much that he bought the same car. Yeah. It's crazy. The, the level of detail, I think we've talked about this before, but this is a pure procedural. And they've realized this, they've realized that people really do want to follow along on every step of the way.

And they want to know like what were other. The brilliance of this episode is the cross-cutting from not only Marsha Clark, but people watching Rockets Nix. Yeah. To Bob Costas doing the like, we're going to do our job. But we all know we're all looking at something else. That moment when they were like, we have to cut away from the NBA finals. This is what new. This is news.

Yeah. Right. Which is, you know. Do you remember that? You were watching too, right? Like everyone was watching. I remember watching the chase. I don't remember watching the finals.

I remember it going picture and picture. I remember it switching. Do you? Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, I remember it. I don't remember. You were really into NBC back then.

I don't remember. No, I don't remember what network it was. And I don't remember which was the big screen. But I remember watching TV with a picture and picture and this happening. It just, it was just, it was so surreal. And I also had no sense of like Los Angeles geography. Can you imagine if like television innovation had ended picture and picture? It was picture and picture with wild.

No DVR, but it was just like. I remember like just cruising a scene. Circuit City and being like, with my dad, like the big question being like, okay, so, you know, it's, uh, let me look at this thing. It's a giant box. It weighs about 79 pounds. Uh, it's curved in a way that makes no sense. Right.

But can you put a little picture inside the bigger picture? Sold. And is there a button on the remote that if I accidentally sit on it, I will never find that button and will always have picture and picture for as long as I live. Yeah. And also, what is the hot button on your remote for, for 94, 96? Swap. Because you don't know which one you want in the big picture.

Swap. I might want to. The dynamic in the room might change. You know what I mean? Like maybe you're watching QVC and someone else wants to watch, you know, what show would have been on then? Empty Nest? Yeah. Swap it. I also would like to refer to the second episode of the People versus OJ Simpson as Cuba Goating Jr.'s Emmy role. For sure. Yeah. He goes for it in a big way.

Yeah. Did you read the interview that he did with Vulture? I did, man. That was fascinating. He is unfiltered. Like, he's ready to talk. Yeah. He's ready to grab the mic again. And I think this episode, I mean, we talked a little bit about this last week, and we'll see how it plays out in the eight weeks still to go. I think he's gotten some criticism for his performance compared to other people's. I feel like this is the episode that showcases the half of OJ that he's really figured out. There is this just naked emotional humanity in this episode that is really intense, as we learned from that interview in Vulture, was really hard for him to do, like messed up his vocal cords.

I mean, he is, he spends the episode, for the most part, sobbing. with a gun to his head in the backseat of a car. I think it's a tremendously felt and lived in emotionally raw real performance. I feel like what it lacked, you know, I think he nailed that path. I still feel like the show struggles because he doesn't have the, just the physical, like human gladiator superhero gravitas of this guy. Yeah. But who does?

Because only certain celebrities do. Did you know that, do you know that the first person that they wanted to cast as The Terminator was OJ before they went to Schwarzenegger? Cameron wanted to do that? That's who they was the studio talked about like that's the guy they wanted. Can you imagine if they had had the footage

of him gunning down people? No. I mean, the genius of this episode also aside from the like just salacious cross-cutting which I thought was excellent was I think that sometimes when you're doing any kind of

crime show there's a degree to which you have to yada yada your way through certain parts of it and I loved the fact that when Shapiro's supposed to deliver him Oh, it was good. They show every single moment of, she's, Marsh Clark calls. Yeah.

And she's pissed off. And then Shapiro's, you know, he's treading water. And then when they come and they're waiting for him on the perp walk outside of the building and they're like, he's not coming. And Chris Bauer gets on the old phone, you know. And they're still extending every courtesy. And you see one of the best things about it is the idea of, it's not a rigged system, but it's a system. And Shapiro's relationship with Garcetti being like, they've known each other.

for years. They've golfed together and like you burn me on this one. Greenwood is actually my my secret MVP so far. Yeah. Because he is, I never would have thought it would be possible for Bruce Greenwood to play kind of a, a simp, you know? And the way that he brings the John from Cincinnati, he's sole California, like, stoicness, but then we'll be like, ah, I was going to run for mayor, you know? Like, he's like the other brilliance of the show, which is it uses the hindsight well.

Like, some people have complained about the Kardashian stuff being foregrounded in this. But this is a show about a case that riveted the country, but it's also about the invention of the current moment. I think that that... In a very big way. And the idea of people like Garcetti, who is a guy who wanted to be in public life, who wanted to engage with history being completely blindsided when history runs him over in a white bronco. Yeah. He wanted to be mayor. You know, spoiler alert.

His son is mayor now of Los Angeles, which is a fascinating wrinkle. Like, the seed sown in this crazy event have... are certainly harvested now in a way that's fascinating. I think that the Kardashian kid's stuff is a little on the nose, but I think that it goes towards the same thing as cutting away from a basketball game or going picture and picture. That's what we invented. It's because that's the invention of this thing of like,

not only is this grotesque theater like, you can't look away from it. But there are people who immediately identify the fact that this can be a life, like their life's work. And I don't, not suggesting that there is some sort of like craven evil inside of the Kardashians or something like that. No, but once you are enveloped by this web,

especially in early age. You are into it. And, you know, I think we talked the other day about how Ryan Murphy is kind of the, you know, he's the, the Antonioni of Schlock. Like, the way that whoever, I'd like to think, you know, we tell stories about how the reason Mad Men was good is because Matthew Weiner was such a control freak that if the ashtray picked out for a certain scene was incorrect thematically or, like, just clashed, he would, you know,

furious. It would not shoot the scene until every detail was right. I'd like to think that Ryan Murphy was the same way with the Jonathan Taylor Thomas posters in Little Kimmy Kardashian's bedroom. The exactly correct level of crappiness and, like, tween age fengue in that room. Yeah. These are the moments that make the show better. Also, like the restaurants, the show is bringing back.

Like, you know. He is the poet. What's the name of the place that Robert brings the biscuits? 90s L.A. Like the innate dumpy tackiness of a lot of this city. Sorry, I love it here. The weather's beautiful. But these places exist.

And to turn your cameras on them instead of away from them. Yeah, I can't remember if that's Mr. Chowell. Yeah, definitely Mr. Chow's is where Robert Shapiro is having that day. He gets the phone call. You know, there's so much happens. It's interesting to watch how O.J. works. And it made me think a lot about the mechanics of these shows that are popular right now. or what shows are popular right now and how it relates to billions.

Nice. Nicely done. Because I think I've identified why I like billions. Okay. Or why billions is interesting to be. Because nothing actually that I think that they think it's, I think it's obviously surface dramatic. But billions is dramatic because of the dialogue.

Yeah. And I will never go out of billions and be like, did you see what happened on billions last night? But I will always email someone and be like, did you see what somebody said on billions? Did you feel that way when Noah Emmerich just smoked that good purple Canadian Cush on a private jet en route to a Metallica concert? Like, I would talk about that. Yes. You don't want to talk about that?

Let's talk about it. Yeah, okay. Well, we are definitely at a point with the amount of television, the amount of prestige television, where it's very noticeable, I think, even to the relatively casual fan, when something has been pushed completely through the ringer or not or the machine of this is TV and this isn't. And, you know, to compliment and Levine's credit on this show, they love dialogue. They love language. They love characters who talk a certain way. You know, we talked about this when we were previewing the show. They like a certain kind of performative macho bluster and you sort of unpacking that and letting it play out.

The dialogue, you know, in this episode, this fourth episode that aired this past week, like, wasn't credited to them. But, and I forget the name of the guy who wrote it, I apologize. but there were great chewy chunks of dialogue that in a vacuum reach levels of intensity that are occasionally preposterous. I mean, in three, Giamati definitely says, like, we have to bring big wampum to this horse trading thing. He says it. And you can, right, and you can laugh at it, and I think they're laughing it to some degree, too,

but they are also going for it. Sure. And the actors are going for, they're hamming it up. The actors are having a very fine time doing it. I still bump up against some things with it. Sure. I don't know if I care. And I don't know if that matters.

You know, I'm still not sure about that. I mean, are you engaged with the dramatic interplay of the show? Are you wondering who's going to get who in this game of Cat and Cat? No. I also am anticipating this show going on for seven years. It's going to go on for seven years. There's no doubt about that. I assume that we will be working towards a deeper understanding.

of Bobby Axlerots. Can I say my one problem with the episodes is that I actually kind of want to have the second screen experience like some people on Game of Thrones because I cannot do a little picture in picture. You know what? I'd like to swap it out.

Because there are so many white guys with hair brushed back with big ties and prominent necks. Yeah. I cannot tell them apart. I've been disappointed by the amount of takeout that Giusei did in the second two episodes because I expect him to always be eating

mushu pork over a white shirt with no napkin tucked in. And then just like someone on a balcony above him just gently raining down on him. Is that what you want? Can we go back to that? Because I miss that in the show. I feel like, listen, when you start with water sports, you better keep me at the beach.

You know what I'm saying? It's inconsistent. Yeah. He's not even the sexual deviant of this show. That's true. That's true. There's a funny time, man. There's something for everyone.

Yeah. There's something for everyone. Yeah. So, Andy, we're going to do another pod Thursday evening. It might be about Kanye West if he puts a record out or if. Hopefully not just responding to his Twitter feed. And if not, we'll just do regular watch re-up episode where we recommend some stuff that we like this week. Just talk about more like Carl Urban deep cuts.

But it's time to get back to work, man. I think you're going to have to like, we have Sunday night. We have vinyl on the HBO network. We got to talk about it. We got Better Call Saul come in the following week. We've got girls and togetherness. Broad City. Broad City.

It's TV back. Yeah. All right. So we'll see you guys Thursday night. Thanks so much. Great job, Bransky. Thanks again to HBO Now for sponsoring today's episode. But HBO now is the new way to stream all of HBO.

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