The Watch - Ep. 27: 'The Watch' 'GoT' Edition With Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin

Episode Date: March 15, 2016

Chris and Andy host a very special 'Watch the Thrones' reunion! They welcome back Jason 'The Maester' Concepcion (6:00) and listen to wise words from 'The Mother of Dragons,' Mallory Rubin (21:30), as they break down the major story lines going into the sixth season of 'Game of Thrones'. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Channel 33, as always, is brought to you by Seatgeek. It's our favorite way to buy and sell tickets to sporting events, concerts, and whatever else you want to attend. You know, guys, I love basketball, and I love concerts. I love live music. I love live sports. And whenever I attend those events, I always use Seekek. You just download the Seat Geek, mobile app, two taps, phones show up right on your

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to sell them right off of your phone or transfer them to friends uh for channel 33 listeners or seekeek is offering $20 off your first purchase you just go there to seekeek dot com or get the seek geek mobile app and use promo code BSPN you get $20 off your first purchase that's promo code BSPN I ain't sports to have to clear the room stand up and walk now hello and welcome to the watch My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And with me in the studio, he's part of the great game now. It's Andy Greenwald.

Don't hate the player, hate the great game. Andy, what's up, man? Los Angeles, Monday. You know, the first ringer newsletter is out. Please go to the ringer.com and sign up for that. If you haven't, welcome to all of our ringer hires. It's signing day. It's chaining day.

As they would say at the rock. And by the way, can I jump in on that? Yeah, man. A lot of free agent signing today. Big pickups. Yeah. The fact number is flexible. A lot of good friends we joined the squad, a lot of new people.

But can I just say, people are asking me, where's my announcement? Oh, it's about you. It's about you. I'm in the building. The call is coming from inside the house right now. You're OG. We don't need to announce anything. Yeah, you're family.

We don't have to say anything about you. I'm right here. Also, you're like kind of third party owned. Like, you know, like, it's like in soccer they have like, it'll just be some shadowy, like third party agency will own a player and rent him out. A Kazakh billionaire is the one who took me from home and put me in a training academy early. Very good TV. I told you.

Keep with the recap. Why are we doing that? Why are we talking about that? We usually record later in the day and we are fired up because it's ringer chaining day. One, we're here together, two. Yeah. But three, I think it's time to steer the conversation towards an old friend. We're going to get into some Game of Thrones today with the Watch the Thrones crew.

We've got Mallory Rubin here. We've got Jason Concepcion, a new ringer hire here. This is a deputy editor. of the ringer. The mother of dragons and the maister are back. Yes, we cannot. I mean, so excited. This was one of my favorite things that we did at Grantland was Watch the Thrones.

And a lot of people have been asking us if we would be covering Game of Thrones. And it's like, hey, yeah. Of course we're going to cover Game of Thrones. We can't wait to cover Game of Thrones. I personally will be leaving to start my own Americans pod, but I know that we're really psyched to have Game of Thrones coverage. That's too soon, man. We'll let you guys know more about what we're going to be doing with Game of Thrones as we get

closer to it. Andy, you know, Ian McShane, who is going to be on Game of Thrones this season, season six. How excited are you about this? Because you have been an Ian McShane truther for a while. You love this dude. The truth is that he is one of our finest actors. He's also one of our best interviews, apparently. He was asked recently about being on Game of Thrones and, like, you know, the sort of secrecy that surrounds the show and whether or not it, you know, like, giving away plot lines.

And he said that, yeah, you know, whenever you say something, the internet goes ape. And he's like, my attitude is get a life. It's only tits and dragons. First of all, why have I wasted all those adjectives over the last five years? He's kind of right. Yeah. And what dragons they are. Giant dragons.

Pendulous dragons. I did want to say, though, his comments really, first of all, I am excited. He's on the show. Not this show. Not our show. Ian, congratulations. You know I could probably pull a pretty good McShane out of my locker. I know you should get ready for it.

I think he's a little surprised to be the new college. basketball columnist for the ringer, especially so close to the tournament. But, you know, last year, one of our favorite things to talk about in regards to Game of Thrones was the fact that I think it now qualifies as part of the UK's pension plan for aging actors. Like, they've all been asked at some point. And I think there are a couple holdouts who now realize that, you know, they could do a couple money losers on the West End and then regroup the- You could do a little bit of experimental Brecht and still cash in a check as a bannerman. That's what I'm saying. It's there for you.

should you want to reach for it. He actually said in the end of that interview, he was like, you know, I thought I'd get to, no, I'm not going to do the voice. He's like, I thought I'd get to hang out with my good friends Charlie Dance and Stephen Delane and they were like, no, they were dead. Whoops, yeah.

So. Always dream sequences. But so I want to ask you before we bring in our guests. Who's left? Because do you think that like Terence Stamp and Bill Nyee are like, right, mate, we'll do Caucasian chalk surf up for six weeks. And then there's got to be some sort of like renegade king.

Broadbent? Broadbent's out there. Is he, wait, who's the master of coin? That's Moffat, right? Yeah, no, that Moffat is the guy that runs Dr. Hill. Oh, right. Who's the dude who writes Sherlock who's in it, Mal? Oh, help us.

He was also in, he was in London Spy. Yeah. Mark Gaddis. Mark Gaddis. And he was the master of coin. I'm saying maybe he just takes a step out and Broadbent comes in. What I feel like Gaddis did the smart move because Gaddis was like, I'm going to claim this part, but I only have to do one scene for the first

four years. And then I assume as the second half of the show's run becomes basically like billions. Yeah. He is the Bobby Axelrod of Esos. Yeah. He's just going to come crashing him back in and just squeezing all those oysters. That's what I'm saying. Anyway, clearly we're excited. We're caffeinated up. The trailer dropped last week. We talked a little bit about it when we did the watch last week. We could only take it so far, though, because, you know, we came back a little cold. Yeah. We have always presented ourselves as enthusiasts. We're like dudes who don't take the limitless drug. We have limits.

We have limits. Luckily, we now have back in the fold two people who are just Bradley Coopering left and right. And so we should, should we bring in the maister? Let's bring on the maister, Jason Concepcion. He can help us unpack this. And now we're joined by one of our new ringer hires, but an old friend in our hearts, Jason Concepcion the maister. What's up, Jason?

Woo! What is dead may know? never die. I love the energy. It rises again. This dude's been on the shelf for months. He's ready. Winter is here. Seriously, how big is your beard? It's very, very long and very, very white. It's like BoniVare meets Gandalf. Meets Gandalf. Jason, it is awesome to have you back in the mix. Jason's going to be writing about the NBA. He'll be writing about Gordon Hayward's streaming video games. He'll be writing about... He hasn't done it in a while. We need that.

See, this is why we need you, is you're on the front lines of this. story. Game of Thrones, NBA, everything. Jason will be doing, I'm sure he'll be writing about Ben Affleck's voice at some point this summer. There's another Batman movie coming, which means Jason has an opportunity to update his list of greatest Wayne Parent murders. That's true. Which that is his Pulitzer project. You guys are missing out on that. Jason, we wanted to talk to you first about the thing that sort of separates this season from past seasons, which is that we are leaving the docks of George R. Martin, right? Like, we are very exciting. Kind of moving on from the books a little bit. I'm sure that we still have

stuff from the books that will show up in the show and that there's still, you know, plenty of stuff to be mined from the books. But, you know, this is going to be the first season that's largely unmoored from the books. And those books can be, I've seen them in the bookstore. They're quite heavy. You're very sick. Where's your head at in terms of, like, how are you feeling about? about venturing into these new lands. I know that there's certainly going to be a core group of book readers who are going to be very unhappy

and are going to have to try and avoid the internet for the next several years. Yeah, how does it feel now, literate people? That's what you get for reading, dorks? There was like, I, HBO kind of, like, it feels like they kind of winked at it in one of the teaser trailers, because, like, one of the snippets of some character,

I forget who said something like, No one knows what's happening now. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's true. No one really does know. I'm excited by it. There are a few plot points still to be mined from both of the books proper and from preview pages that have been released on Martin's website. And there's a few things, points leapfrope, their book arcs, so they can go back and do other things. But I'm generally pretty excited.

I'm really stoked. Let's go. It was interesting to see that when we got all excited about the trailer last week and people were hype about the uncharted waters, there were still a couple bookstands who were like, oh, no, a bunch of the scenes we saw. Book Stanis's, RIP. In this trailer, there are a couple scenes that we know about, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. So do you think the dynamic of the show, not the show itself, but the watching of the show, which is something that everyone in this room and on this call loves to do, has that changed dramatically this year? and is it going to take some getting used to? Getting used to for bookstands, sure. Because they're going to, you know,

they can potentially go and where they're expected. I mean, they're already passed it in certain respects, but they can just blow people's minds now. Are there people? Which is why I'm excited. But you're, see, you've always been a unique case because you enjoy the uncharted territories. You're not too precious about the books,

even though you know them back and forth. But, like, are there people, is there a subculture out there who are like, Not my Westeros, who are like, I will not watch this show because I don't trust. Andy just wants to know if they're going to be in his mentions. I just want to know how clean is my Twitter profile going to be for the next six months. I mean, you can go on Reddit or any of the numerous Song of Ice and Fire forums and find vociferous objections to what's happened. That's just how the internet works these days.

Well, let me ask you this, as an avid, and we're going to ask Mal the same question, but as an avid, Avid book reader, is it a little bittersweet? Are you kind of like, do you wish that Martin had kind of kept pace? Not, you know, I mean, older gentleman working on a... Oh, an age shade. He is an older gentleman. I'm not, there's no sandpiper shots here. I'm just saying, like, he said that writing is hard.

Writing is hard. I feel sympathetic to him for that. It's hard. Okay. It's very hard. Okay, not hard for everyone, apparently. Yeah, but like, there was like a very clear deadline. Right?

This is spoken like an internet editor. Martin is just crafting genius, man. You can't put that on an RSS feed. Yeah, how those books going for you? I think they're great. Yeah. So I just mean, like, you know, somebody who's invested a lot of time in these books,

is it a little bit of bittersweet to see the show kind of sort of pass it on the left? Yes, for sure. Okay. I mean, you know, I've started my reread, which I do before every season. And, you know, you're just getting reacquainted with how. rich and deep the books are in terms of the history and the and it is sad that he just couldn't keep pace with that you know but there are certain there's just certain structural things built into how he created these books that I mean I understand

why he's at up at an impasse right now it's like really difficult you know the POV character structure for building character and it's not really great in terms of, you know, you can't just jump ahead. There's no overarching point of view, which you can use to go to another part of the world. You have to put a character there, and it's just really fast you can move and how complicated things are. Can I suggest a... Can I suggest a quick fix for that?

Because I know that that dude really wants to hear my advice. Right. What if he just did Dragon POV? What if Drogon was just flying low, like underneath, like below cloud cover, watching? But you know that there would be like 50 pages of waves, more waves, clouds. I'm hungry. There is, non-spoiler, but there is something that will take on that, fulfill that role for the story. Can I tell you, nothing has made me more excited about throne season than you describing vaguely some shadowy presence that can see everything and watching Mallory's sly smile next to us.

She's just quietly nodding to. herself and here we go. I thought for a second he meant that there actually is a Drogon POV thing coming, but like when we hear it, it's going to sound like a Whitney Cummings stand-up bit. And she's like, the thing about dating when you're a dragon, it is rough out there. Yeah. This character, I think, really is one that we should really continue. Whitney Cummings is the Dragon.

Yeah. Whitman Cummings is a Dragon. Okay. What happens when you're four years old and you suddenly become sexually active, but your lifespan is 300 years? that's a long time is there a tinder for that or what okay am i right um okay jason so let's move into the actual territory we want to talk about which is basically give us a little bit of set the chess board here what questions are we are like remaining on answer there's an obvious one there's you know

there's obviously like john and whether or not john uh is still with us but then like give me give me some non-john questions that we were we think we're gonna we want to see answered this season Because it's an interesting thing, sorry to jump in, but like, that's what everyone remembers. Yeah. That's what everyone is excited about. That's what everyone is fascinated. That's why the total secrecy around the season. But that wasn't the only thing that happened in the season finale.

No, no, Ariya cannot see. Ariya cannot see out of her eyes holes. She's just like, is this an oyster or a razor clam? I don't even know. That's right. She's just shucking and doesn't know what she's producing here. All right. Sorry, Jason.

The two things I'm most excited for are my guy Davos, for his, for his, His role, I suspect, to increase greatly for him to get some really... Nice. Like he did in the trailer. Yeah, he's the MVP of the trailer. He and he's the MVP of, or co-MvP of the section of the books that we should ostensibly be watching this coming season. I'm really excited for what he's going to do.

And then the Iron Islanders. Let's go. Let's see Wild Viking Revers and their really. religion and what is going on in that part of the world. That's interesting. So, you know, that's, that comes from the perspective of someone who knows that good stuff might be coming, because I can't say I was super hype about going back to those dudes. You know, once you send them the Timberlake D and the B, I feel like that's, that, that really

told, you know, that, that, that, that, that should, that should have been, that should have been exit Iron Island. I feel like I kind of know about them now, you know, I kind of know what they're about. Yeah. Like, that's, that's, that's how they keep in touch with their kids. okay like that's all right right but I you're you're right that they've been they've been off the board for a while so that's interesting because that's not something I think people are checking for okay so Jason just to sort of to wrap things up then what is the character or storyline that

you're sort of expecting the most out of the season I know personally as a Jamie surzy shipper just always excited for those two crazy kids to get back together just see if it can work you know it's just they found love in a hopeless place what do you want me to say uh Jason think? I mean, I could, listen, I could go hipster, but I have to go mainstream. It's got to be John. They're going to, I think this is the season where they start to finally tie in core mystery of the show, which is John's parentage. And they're going to finally start exploring the event, current events, people that are fighting for the throne right now. Current events, yeah, or yes, Current events like populist movements in the streets, trying to make Westeros great again,

lurking somewhere off the board in eastern cities thinking about reconquest. But Jason, this is weird to me. So you're suggesting that this eagerly, fanatically anticipated season of television is basically going to be 10 hours of that Henry Lewis Gates show about people discovering their lineage, but about a guy who's dead? That seems like a really weird choice, right? I mean, it's a semi-weird choice, but I think it's a... This is going to finally tie in, I hope, is going to tie in some of the core motivations.

I also, I just... I like that your response was to take my question seriously and continue the illusion that John Snow is dead. Despite Kit Harrington, just, you know, just wintering in Belfast. Like, it's no big deal. Like, he's just like, it's charming here in February. Yeah, look. You've not lived. If you get paid $300,000 an episode to pretend that you're still dead,

you pretend you're still dead. You go with it. I'm like, yeah, I'm dead. I'm never coming back. What's this photo? That's not me. That's my hair, dog. I love looking like this.

I'm in Belfast just to chill, man. It's beautiful. I made so many good friends here. Do you think, I know this is another thing that we were going to talk about, but what's your over under? We're going to ask Malvis too. But it's been announced that no one's getting screeners, so everyone is equally in the dark about this season.

How early into the episode is this question answered? I think that we've, from prior conversations and from the end of last season, I think we all pretty much agreed that, and from the trailer, we see a body, we see Kit Harrington in the trailer. But is there, is he hopping off the slab in the first 20 minutes, or is this like episode two, three or four? Hoping off the slab definitely sounds like the next young thug mixtape. I see it no later than episode three. Episode three. Okay.

All right. That's a good over-runder. Jason, we're obviously going to be talking to you a lot more about Thrones in the coming weeks and months, man, but it is so great to be working with you again. You can read Jason's work for now on the Ringer newsletter, which you can sign up for at the Ringer.com, and you can follow Jason at Network with some special characters in there,

but you probably already are because he's literally the best person at Twitter. But you are the best person at Twitter. Jason, I only want to ask, how heavy is your neck right now because you have your maister thing already? Yeah, and now you have the rock chain, right, exactly. Now you have the ringer chain. Like, are you okay? Do you need some lumbar support? It's actually, I've been doing squats and it's actually really great for the core.

Here is how clutched Jason is. Jason bought a landline today just to talk to us. Go make some other phone calls, man. I mean, just do whatever you need to do. Call 311. There's a whole new world. What is this? Look at these, the scrunchy cord.

Star 69 someone. Be like, did you call me? All right, man. We will be talking to you soon. Thanks so much for joining us today. We're excited to have you. Thanks, guys. Great to be back. We're going to take a quick break to tell you about one of our sponsors. Channel 33 is brought to you by Lisa. Lises like Tom's shoes or Warby Parker for mattresses. Lisa's done away with the awkward mattress showroom experience that we've all suffered through

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Go to Lisa.com slash BSPN. That's L-E-E-E-S-A-com slash B-SPN. Enter promo code B-SPN at checkout to get $75 off. Sleep tight. Channel 33 is also brought to you by Vicerland, which is the new TV channel from Vice. Guys, we talked to you before about Fuck That's Delicious, which is Action Bronson's Food and Cooking Show.

It debuted on March 3rd, and it's on Thursdays at 10 p.m. The episode about Washington, D.C., action Bronson and his crew go to Rosa's luxury in D.C. That's a favorite restaurant of Joe House. So you know it's got to be good. House eats where Bronson eats. Can we get a crossover? I don't know.

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It is the Mother of Dragons. It is Mallory Rubin. Mallory. We are so excited. to be podcasting with you. I don't know why I'm talking in a PBS voice. It's Mal Rubin! Christopher, Andy, what a thrill to be here with you.

What a genuine pleasure and joy I'm overcome. This is very exciting. With emotion? This is your first watch appearance, but we did Watch The Thrones with Mallory last year. She has proven herself as a historian and a pundit of the highest order when it comes to matters of Game of Thrones.

And an encyclopedia. Yeah, basically. Like a walking. Yeah, she's like that. thing that won it go from you know that google thing alpha go yeah that's you i like i literally had no idea what you were talking about but again mallory did so this is why we have her this is very valuable now let's continue the conversation that we were just having with jason a little bit with you about john gladly i have a philosophical question for you okay what does john's

life or death whichever forms they may take and we you know we don't know for just just all a guesswork at this point. What does the sort of outcome of his storyline mean to the overall worldview of the show and the story itself, I guess? But this idea that is he the Christ figure of Game of Thrones? Do you know what I mean? Like, is he the, does it a sacrifice? Is it about, does he lead us into a new dawn or something? Like, what is, how much do you have invested in? What does it mean? What happens? Everything. Yeah, it does. It means everything. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think, think that the sort of just fundamental argument that maybe this would just be one kick in the nuts too many is certainly valid. But beyond that, I think that, you know, as sad as it was to see

Ned Stark lose his head, as painful as it was to see, you know, Rob gets stabbed repeatedly. We should probably say there are going to be spoilers in this podcast. Yes. If you haven't watched episode nine of season one, you definitely should. It's a minute 26 of the Game of Thrones podcast. You know, this John, I think not only have we all invested more in him emotionally, just from the sheer volume of time we've spent with him, but I think that anybody who has devoted any meaningful time to thinking about the end game probably thought John was going to play a very meaningful role. And so, you know, you could sort of say, well, well, Ned had to go because that got everything rolling. But does John have to go? If John goes, what happens at the end of this story?

I think that, like, why have we spent so much time talking about? about who his mom is, talking about his parentage. Like, we won't go too deep into book world spoilers here, but why is, not yet? Not yet, but why is, is R plus L equals J a thing if that doesn't end up being real and having incredible implications for the story? And I think this is where we are with the show. And because, Chris, as you were saying philosophically, like, is he a Christ figure, does his death define the story to come?

And the answer to that is, there's no effing way. Like, that just cannot happen. And I think that we, I don't think I'm alone in saying this. This is absolutely an existential moment for the show because you can't have done all this for nothing. The show can't be as profoundly nihilist as it would appear to be if John Snow is dead. Yeah, it's still popular entertainment. I mean, there's part of me that's just like there has to be this resolution. But what's interesting is that everyone, I think, is perched on that same cliff being like, okay, this is exciting that we've been dangled over it because we realize how awful it would be of this character that we love has died.

and that, you know, the show is really willing to pull that card. But really, people are watching to see how he comes back. Yeah. Because they've given us a number of possibilities with Melisandra there, with Kit Harrington, just continuing to enjoy that rich Belfast cultural scene in nightlife, even giving us glimpses of him in the trailer. And I think the key thing. Young fuck has recorded, jump off the slab.

I think he has. Probably in the minute since I first said it. But I think that... He doesn't even know he's recorded yet. Let's also just remember that, and I was really impressed by this at the time, HBO's first marketing for the season was just a fantastic troll job, right? It was just the image of him because he is the specter haunting the season and we're waiting to see when he comes back. So with that said, we asked Jason this question and we'll put it to you too.

You believe he's coming back one way or another, right? 100%. I have literally never been more certain of anything in my life. Which is amazing. So what is your over-under in terms of how long is he on that slab before he hops off it? I think that we need to give Davos a little time to work whatever magic he's going to work with Long Claw. Work the onions, exactly. You know, he picks up Long Claw at the end of the trailer. He does. Long Claw being, sorry, this is why we need you. Long Claw being John's Magic Sword.

John Snow's Valerian Steel bastard bastard. I knew that part. I knew it too. I was just trying to like. Formerly the sword of Lord Commander Mormont. Yeah. Gifted to John, switched out the pommel. Put a little ghosty up there. Gotta switch out the pommel. By the way, switch out the pommel. By the latest young time mixing. It's a little yaddy, actually. I think that Davos is probably after he eliminates some of the threats in that room. He's going to need a little time to maneuver and to get John in a safe space for whatever magic is yet to come. But I would not be shocked if we see the beginnings of this ritual at the end of episode one. That would be great, though, if he was like, I'm not a fighter.

You know, like, I'm not a fighting man. Yeah. And then it cuts away. But, like, what they really show is when the season starts is him just doing, like, his favorite number from Hamilton. Yeah, exactly. Say no to this. Which is with no, was wiggling his finger stun. No, but I just wanted to say that that's another point worth mentioning here is that as we move off of, actually it has nothing to do with moving off of the books.

The one thing that Benny Off and Weiss have proven to be really good at is they're telling a story in a TV way, which is different from the bookway that Jason was talking about, the POV stuff. So in this case, it's not about punishing the audience or rewarding the audience. It's about doing good storytelling. And if you've created this vacuum, if you know you're bringing it back, you can't bring it back too quickly. you have to take advantage of the story possibilities created by his absence. So I totally agree. We have at least an episode before the first glimmers of whatever's going to happen will happen. And speaking of good TV storytelling, let's not forget the other reason that John is definitely coming back.

That's Stairdown with the Knights King. That's what I was wondering is how did he take this news? Was he just like was he having like a coffee after a long night out? And then one of his boys comes, he's like, hey, a nice coffee. How you doing, man? You heard about that kid up at the wall, the Castle Black? Is that curly hair? Yeah.

Curly? You see him? Sad eyes. It's like he had a squash match. He's really looking forward to it. I really invested a lot in that guy. I really stared at that kid. I definitely made direct eye contact with him.

I haven't done that in 2,000 years. Do you know how hard it is to cultivate a nemesis when you are literally made of ice? Mal, here's another question I had for you, which is, you know, speaking of Bennyoff and Weiss, they are, over the course of these seasons, have sort of resembled Mark Wahlberg and the gambler in the sense that they are just like...

In the sense that we love them? Double it, you know? Yeah, in the sense that we love them. But they will establish and garner affection for characters and actors for that matter and swiftly do away with them over and over and over again. And the crazy thing is, is that they have always had the next man up, always had the Belichick thing going with like somebody steps up and kind of takes the higher usage rate and takes up more screen time. And actually winds up, you know, I don't think any of us thought in the beginning of this series that Kit Harrington would be as engaging as. he was now. I mean, the character, sure, but like the actor had a long, long way

to go. But that's the sort of amazing thing about the show. That's the secret MVP thing that happened with the show, and I feel like Mallory is a book reader and you and Jason would have been aware of this, knowing that when the cast list was announced five years ago, or six years ago probably before the pilot, you had to have been thinking, man, I hope they chose wisely.

Because in standard TV, when they cast kids, it's a crapshoot. If they grow up into Sally Draper, then you write more parts for Sally Draper, if they grow up into Bobby Draper, then you you keep up. But you just gave up. But you cannot do that with Ariya Stark, who starts the show as a kid and becomes a blind assassin. Well, this leads me to my question. It seems like one of the main characters this season will be someone we have not been seeing a lot of recently.

He took a year off. He redshirted. Bran. Mal, tell me, just for our listeners, what up with Brand? I'm so excited that Bran is back. Brand is one of my three favorite characters, which I know is a little bit insane to say. But. Give me the Trinity.

Ariah John Bran Oh that's hard Tyrion Not know It's like father's son And You know

It's ever evolving Right I mean people move in and out all the time Sure Part of the reason that I'm so fond of brand is because I think that he has one of the most sort of like quintessential fantasy archetype storylines

And I think we're about to really get into that So, you know, that will probably prove divisive among the show crowd. I think that there will be a lot of people who get really into it and nerd out and who really appreciate the history and the world building that Brand allows us to enjoy. I think there will be other people who are like, I don't really want to get this weird and magical because that's what this is. This is magic. I mean, Bran has magical powers. He's a warg. He's a seer, right?

He has special dreams and he can go into not only his wolf's mind but into Hodor's mind and ring people's necks. and he's spent an entire season, off season and season, just living in the Keebler elf tree, right? Just like learning about how to make delicious fudge cookies. I thought you were going to say, like taking the Maria Sharapova drug and growing six and a half inches. That is evidently the case as well. Listen, that's just if you have some diabetes in the family history.

Careful. Considering the way the stars have gone. Yeah, so he's super tall now. Really tall. Yeah, he's not the little brand muffin we left behind. Are they going to explain that? Is that like David Robinson got on a submarine and grew six inches kind of thing? Like what happened there?

How can you explain it? It's like Andy was just saying. You cast young kids and you hope. You hope that they learn how to act and you hope they stay cute. Do you think that there was ever a nuclear code contingency plan, which is just like, okay, there's another Stark? Or like Rickett, like Rick and Stark is a person that exists. He's out there.

He's out there. Is there a moment where like, okay, they couldn't get the Kid Harrington renegotiation going. Brand really maybe isn't that good of an actor as it turns out or he grew too much to fit in the frame. How dare you say that about Isaac Hempstead, right? I think he's fine, but I'm saying, what if he was Bobby Draper and not Sally? Were they just like, okay, we got to coach up Ricken. Rickin is the star of the show now. We're going to go five more seasons with Rickin at the helm. That would be delightful because it would mean the return of Shaggy Dog and of OSHA, both of whom I would

welcome back to my life with open arms. I forgot who I was talking to when I asked the question. This is another big question, but it's one I think that would be good to kind of sort wrap up on, which is this show initially, you know, among other things, was kind of a war between the North and the South, between the Starks and the Lannisters for control of the kingdom. And we had several characters who represented that war. We had battles. We had a push and pull, a tug of war for power.

And over the last two seasons, I think since the Red Wedding, we've kind of spread out, right? It's increasingly there's been a sort of diaspora of storylines. I don't even know if I'm using that phrase correctly. But let's just go with that. Thank you. Nice. Nobody is better suited to tell us what's at stake now than you. But I'm almost wondering if even for you, you're like a lot.

And then also, because it seems like the threads are all like apart from one another right now. And even though certain characters are showing up in different people's storylines, it's a lot of people are kind of like spread out across this world right now. So what is its stake on this show now? Well, you know, nothing more or less than the fate of the world. Right. So, you know, where the stakes are high. I think, remember back a little while ago, our girl, our boo, Melisandra, was having a little chat with Stannis and Davos, and Stannis was ready to basically give up on Davos, right?

He was pissed that Davos had let Gensry go and was ready to, had basically said, I'm not going to forgive you anymore. And then Melisandra came in and she was like, well, actually, you know, because she well actually everyone. Davos had the letter from the wall. and he made the pitch that Stannis needed to take his army and go and that there was something more at stake than just the battle for the Iron Throne. And that's what Melisandria came in and she said, Davos has a part to play, you know, give him another chance, and basically said, well, actually this entire war that we've been fighting,

this War of the Five Kings, doesn't matter. The characters on the show have said that now. They've acknowledged it. This is the fight. The series is called A Song of Ice and Fire for a reason, right? It's a battle of good versus evil, light versus dark. I thought it was calling a song of Tits and Dragons. I'm sorry.

Yeah. You're talking about Game of Thrones? That's your fanfic version. That's a catchier song for what it's worth. So eventually I think that some of these petty differences are going to have to be put aside, and the people who are in a position to fight are going to have to band together and attack the Knights King and his crew. But this is what's exciting about the show because we felt this certainly slow and certainly entertaining drift towards the main story. And that was very exciting that the real story was percolating the whole time, and we were headed toward this collision.

And so obviously all of our A1 interest is focused on what's happening in the North now, what's happening with John and Davos, and what are they going to do about this enormous threat. The question and the challenge for the show, and we touched on this a little bit last season on Watch the Thrones podcast, is how to keep all the other storylines interesting and engaging so it's not just like the sand snakes in the prison cell. because the De Nera stuff seemed for a long time to be where things were building because she was, you know, it was a third way. Yeah, she was going to swoop in and fix Westrose or challenge Westrose. She had dragons. It all was happening. That seemed to be the secret main story.

But then she ended up in Marine for a super long time. And then now, just when she met Tyrion and we felt like, okay, now we've connected the dots, now she's just in a field again somewhere with some goat bones and some Dothraki, right? And at that, it's hard, I'm very curious where we're going to. And it certainly doesn't look like she's leading the Dothraki in the trailer. No. And so I'm very curious how they're going to make that feel engaging again without it feeling like an enormous reset button on a plot that we had invested a lot in. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a real danger of putting Tyrion and Varis two of the most engaging and compelling figures on the show right in the seat of power that Danny just left and saying basically like keep a lid on it in Marine, keep things cool.

You know, the dragons are still there. in theory at some point that is going to be the thing that matters most and will be super exciting and cool. I don't know how interesting it's going to be to watch Jora and Dario, handsome though they are, gallop about the Dothraki-C. I can't believe you just said that. I mean, I do love Jora. That jawline, my goodness. I think the thing that will keep the show interesting, though, is that even as we move toward the end game, we are focused on that, but not all of the characters are, right? Like, people like Littlefinger are still out there. He still cares about the game. He still cares about the power.

Chaos is a ladder, right? For someone like Little Finger... He's still mad that his brothels got closed. That's right. For someone like Little Finger, this kind of chaos is just another opportunity to make more moves. You think Circe is going to just lay down and be like, yeah, I actually like this new haircut. I'm fine with things. I don't think she's going to do that at all.

No. Her boyfriend back. Marjorie? The High Sparrow? Can we just take a moment to talk about it? I think sometimes people maybe think we're joking about stuff. Chris really, really rides for Jamie and Circe. He used not one...

It's not the craziest thing that happens on this show. There's just two crazy kids fell in love. Chris used not one, but two blowing kiss emojis to describe his feelings about those two in our interthrthrones email this morning. I'm more invested in the blossoming love that Sam and Gilly have found. That's really doing it for me. They're like a Bruce Springsteen song out there. Sailing to Old Town. Just running.

I guess just to wrap up here, we are now, we are absolutely now closer to the end than we were to the beginning of the series. She's tearing up. I know. An emotional. Do you think because of that, because we know that, the people making the show know that, do you think that the energy level and intensity of the season will, will it feel different? Obviously, it feels different already because we're off book or, you know, will soon be majority off book. Do you think the season will just play differently?

Because in past seasons, you know, past seasons have followed a similar rhythm. And it's actually not one that I would criticize because I enjoy most often the episodes in the middle where we're spreading out instead of just pushing forward. But will there still be that space to learn about the shellfish culture of Esos? I hope so. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons that it feels like such a rich story is all of those little details and those little pieces that make Westeros feel like a real place to us and make us like smell the sea air and bravos as we're watching Aria walk around the docks.

But in the end of the day, like 30 episodes, that's still a lot. That's a lot of hours to fill. So I think that knowing that there's an endgame in sight allows the creativity. to be really focused and approach each episode with great care and a sharp editing knife, which is great because there won't be a lot of fat. But I do think there's still going to be room to just explore and play. And, you know, spend time with Aria. She stabs a knight of the king's guard in the eye and then slits his throat.

I mean, there's always going to be room for stuff like that. It's Game of Thrones. She's a character. Let's just say. You know, she's temper temper. Do you have an MVP for this season that you're looking forward to tracking? Oh, I... Just go off the trail.

Obviously, the season is going to be the season, but the trailer is something everyone listening has seen. I really do think it's going to be Brann. I'm really excited about that. I think that spending time with the Three-Eyed Raven, you know, maybe it doesn't seem like spending time with it. The Redmond is the dude in the tree. Yes, yes. Maybe it doesn't seem like... I'm just translating for the layman.

I knew we were talking about. If Three-Eyad Raven, don't trust you. It's going to be a long season, guys. That was purely for Tate. Beautiful. That was really something. Does Tate even... Have you ever watched Game of Thrones?

Yeah. Okay. I don't know. Wow. What an infectious giggle. I'd say it is the best. Sorry. So you brand,

you know, it might not seem that spending time below ground with an elderly man who's fused to the roots of a large wherewood is a thrilling

way to pass the time. It sounds like a mistake. I just want to say my real world perspective is probably just pass on that. Okay. Well, summer's there.

Summer, as you know, and ghost are among my favorite characters. But not top three. Well, there's a whole magical creatures edition of the list. Animals don't count.

Yeah. As you know, animals in my world count more than humans. They'd be above the humans unless. I think that, look, just in the... This is another episode of Watch the Mallory. What was the coolest moment in the trailer other than Davos pulling the sword at the end? It was... Serce's hair growing out.

That was your very personal. You're very personal interpretation. And that like animal was the kiss they have, you know? It was more of like an ear nibble. But it's when, when Bran has the Knights King behind him, right? Like, what's going on there? I mean, we've seen enough of Bran at this point to know that. that he's, last time we saw Brand standing, he did not suddenly regain the ability to walk.

He was sharing a green dream with Jojin and saw his mother and then fell out of a tree. So, you know, there's going to be a lot of interesting, weird, magical stuff happening with Bram, but I think it will be a good gateway into the important things in the past and in the future. It's exciting. I can't think of people I would rather share a green dream with than you, Mallory, and you Chris and Jason. This is going to be a fun season. Thrones back. We're so excited. It premieres April 24th.

does. Yeah, you can get lots of Game of Thrones content from the Ringer, I bet. I think that's safe to say. Sign up for the Ringer's newsletter at the ringer.com. Follow us at Ringer on Twitter. You can subscribe to the Channel 33 podcast feed, which also features Mallory Rubin's college basketball podcast that she's been doing. She'll be doing that throughout March Madness. As long as Tate stays with me. You can sign that, you just subscribe to the channel 33 podcast feed on iTunes, Stitcher, and SoundCloud. You know, that's also the home of the soccer pod. that young Chris Ryan does alone in a room. Get out of here.

It's also the home of the Andy Greenwald podcast. Yeah, your favorite show. This week, which will be talking about your other favorite show, The Americans, which comes back on Wednesday. Can't wait. Can't wait. I can't wait. Are they still Russian?

Who knows? All right. We've got some content coming for the Americans. I haven't forgotten about you guys. No, I actually can't wait for Andy's Americans chat. And we'll be back real soon with some more Game of Thrones stuff. Keep your ears peeled. Yeah, we're excited.

Until then. Great job, Branski! Thanks to our sponsor, Weissland, the new television channel from Vice. Guys, watch Fuck, that's delicious. Action Bronson's Food and Cooking Show. That's on Thursdays at 10 p.m. Make sure you check for that, Washington, D.C. episode. Tell them Joe House sent you.