The Watch - Ep. 28: 'The Andy Greenwald Podcast' With Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields

Episode Date: March 18, 2016

Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields, showrunners of FX's 'The Americans,' join Andy Greenwald to talk about last night's Season 4 premiere and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Andy Greenwald podcast. Hello, my name is Andy Greenwald. This is my podcast, which is exclusively to be found on the Channel 33 feed. You can subscribe to it at SoundCloud.com slash Channel 33. You can find it on iTunes. You can find it on Stitcher. Proud to say, the Andy Greenwald podcast and Channel 33 are now part of the Ringer podcast network. Go to the ringer.com and subscribe to the newsletter now or in five minutes.

It's really up to you. I want to thank, as always, the amazing Scottish band Churches. That's Churches with a V for my very cool theme music. But today's show, man, I'm very excited. The FX series The Americans returned for a fourth season last night, and many, many critics have called it the best show on TV. You know who one of those critics was? It was me back of my old critiquing days.

So because the show premiered last night, I was very excited to sit down today, Thursday, with the show's co-show runners, Joe Weisberg, who is also the creator of the show, and a co-executive producer along with Joel Fields. So let's get into it. We've talked about, you guys know my feelings about your show. I think it's the best thing on TV.

I'm happy to get to talk to you after the premiere because we can talk about it. Up at the front, we can say there will be spoilers about season four premiere, but nothing afterwards. I'm sworn to secrecy about everything else I may know or may have seen. And if people have watched the show, they shouldn't be spoilers anymore. If they watched it live, they were part of that dwindling group that watches television live.

I assume that the carrot, of this podcast was enough for them to submit to the stick of actually watching the fantastic TV show. Thanks for calling it a stick. Before we get into the specifics, though, I have to ask you guys this, since I never get to talk to you right after a premiere, do you guys have, did you watch the show live? Do you have any superstitions? Because I've heard about film directors, you know, maybe cruising Manhattan. That sounds strange.

But going into movie theaters, like watching their movie with audiences, do you guys? It's been an interesting journey between the first season. and now season four, I remember first season, the premiere was such a big deal and such an exciting event, and I gather around with my whole family, and then by the second season, it had become this thing where we were going to live tweet the show,

which meant we had to learn what Twitter was, get on Twitter, figure out what live tweeting was, which was, you know, for people of our advanced age, like going back to teenager school. I mean, it was really complicated. And then season three, we were doing the same thing, but we were, you know, getting a little weary of it to be honest. I think we also

partially because we were weary of it and partially genuinely felt that maybe this is not a show people should be tweeting while they watch. And we shouldn't participate in or encourage that. I mean, there's scenes you literally can't, you have to be watching to see the subtitles, you won't know what's going on. It's almost untweetable to a certain

degree, although people do manage. And anyway, by this year, remember that we've seen every episode so many times by the time it airs because we edit it. So Joel does let you watch the episodes. I just want to be there. He does. It does. So, you know, when you edit, you must see, in aggregate, you must see it 20 times by the time it's on.

So last night, I know I was asleep by 10.30. That's nice. Pretty sure, Joel was good. Although we were in different places and different parts of the city, I was asleep too. And that was, yeah, I just finally put a flag in the day, declared victory and turned off the devices and kept the TV off and went to bed. It is a funny thing to think about that for you, for you guys, the marathon of the season is, almost over. You've finished shooting now? We finished shooting. We're about two weeks past the end of production. Today, we will screen episode 10 for the network. Right. So that's virtually locked.

Tonight we'll do our final review of episode 11, which we've been in the editing room on last week and this week. So tonight will be kind of our final lock of that. If all goes well, tomorrow by Friday, we'll be locked with 11. And then in about a week, we'll see 12 and 13. which we're seeing together because they were shot together cross-boarded. And yeah, we're pretty done. We've been really spending the last few weeks working on season five and beyond. See, this is the amazing thing, and I know I bring this up every time I talk to you guys, but the level of planning is KGB-esque, even better probably,

because as you said, that didn't work out so well. Way better. Is there a moment when you officially pivot during production of the previous season to the next, or is it just that the thoughts that have been aggregating throughout the development of one season, And you put them in a place, you put them on the board, you put them in a document, and then slowly they become more and more relevant. I think it's more like that. This was, I think, the first year where I would actually accuse us of a little bit of procrastinating before actually starting to sit our asses down and start putting more stuff on paper and face the fact that we're actually working on the next season. I think this year you and I have completely swapped roles.

because this was the first year where I think you felt we were procrastinating and I was saying you know what let's let this percolate in our subconscious we have so much stuff we're gonna be okay and that really is that really is the opposite of what it was

for the first three seasons but somehow it didn't matter who was in which role it seems like one person's in each role exactly yeah the odd couple isn't a fixed thing you can play the roles every night that's right Speaking about the season in general,

now I've seen four episodes, and I think they're outstanding. So I don't know if this holds true throughout, but the feeling I got, especially from the premiere, from last night's premiere, was that unlike past seasons of your show and unlike new seasons of many shows, I didn't get the feeling that you had introduced a new big bad. There wasn't a big scene saying,

throw clearing, here's what this season is about. And I was really struck by that and excited by that, because what you managed to do is what you, think you guys always do so masterfully is you took where we were in the previous season and, oh, there's a subseller. Oh, there's an emotional subseller below that. We're going to go deeper down rather than further out. So I guess it's a two-part question. One is, is that an accurate read? And then two, what was the thought process behind that? Is it that at this point in the run, you know, you're ready to tell the story that you're ready to continue the story you've been

telling and it's not time to start adding new layers to it? I think it's about the fact that every year the show has gotten more realistic. So what we had before was bad guys who weren't really bad guys. They were complex, dimensionalized characters who sort of played the role of bad guys, excuse me, played the role of bad guys, but weren't really villains. And as the show got even more real this last season, well, look, in reality, you don't, you don't exactly have bad guys at all. And we realized this season we could tell the story without even that crutch.

It reminds me of when people talk about It's painting or even the famous Coco Chanel thing About dress the way you want and then take something away I mean I've heard people talk about Writing dialogue like that where you write the whole scene And then you realize oh you don't need all that dialogue Oh maybe you don't need any dialogue at all And that's the sort of trust process that you come to when you've worked together as writers for a while

When you've worked and certainly when you work with actors Is it relevant to compare that to working on a show for this long Where you realize oh this is the show we have the story we're telling And we don't need the the accoutrement, as Coco would say. Well, I think that's part of it. And as Joe says, this show in particular, tries to tell its character stories with as real a voice as possible.

And that can sometimes be challenging in terms of story because you don't get to pack it with exciting incident. I think it was Ross McDonald had a great quote. He said whenever he felt one of his books slowing down, he would just have someone kick in the door with a gun. And he said, you know, it was good enough. No one would really ask who the guy was

or where the gun came from and keep the story moving. We don't have that luxury, but what we have, on the other hand, is these emotional dynamics. And when we play those as real, it seems to work for us. And that does mean sometimes stripping away

all the dialogue, certainly stripping away all the clever dialogue. Right. Although that's interesting because, you know, I think many people would look at the, at least the framework of your show. And this is certainly how I considered

it before premiered when I was excited about the premise, you actually could have someone kicking the door with a gun. You are in that universe where your characters have guns. They know people with guns, and they know people who love to kick. So that's all possible. But I think it's a testament to the type of show that you've built

that you don't rely on that. You don't need to do that because, you know, as now we can say from this point in the show's run, the story you were always telling was the family story. And, you know, the guns were secondary to that. Well, in a crazy kind of way, I think we learned the lesson that on this show, we do have the equivalent of people kicking in doors with their guns drawn,

but we learned the lesson that on our show, it sort of slows things down. Maybe that's not the right word that it slows them down, but it breaks the spell a little bit. So we started doing it less and less. Our running joke is that eventually we'll do a season with no espionage. And I don't actually think we'll do that, but I think the joke is telling. What we were down to, after all, in the premiere was,

well, there's a tin. a tobacco tin that you barely see for a fraction of a moment, that you're told what's in, and the big action sequences involve watching someone, waiting, and then fearing what might happen if you get shoved. And it's no one. It's this brutal thing that you guys have done where a lot of the writing about your show

correctly points to the enormous burden that a lot of characters are holding. You know, this truth bomb, the truth grenade. People pull the pin and hand it to these characters and obviously page is suffering with that this year. But you've done that to the audience. You do that repeatedly. That's the most brutal thing that you do,

where we know what's in that tin. We know where that tin is. We know all the things that could go wrong if Stan pushes a certain way, pushes into the house, God knows what else you could discover. So we're the ones suffering more than anyone else, which is diabolism.

It doesn't suffer. But it was a scary, that was actually, you know, a scary sequence to put into the script because if not executed just, right by the director and all the actors. Of course, we know the cast, and we had Tommy Shlami directing that episode. But we rely a lot on our directors and cast and production designers and cinematographer to capture things that are just in our heads.

Yeah, to communicate that sensation across the board. One other question, though, about the drilling down rather than spreading out idea of a season premiere. It also struck me that that was very much reflective of the TV climate we're in anyway, which is that the idea of starting a show over every season seems very outdated. I mean, obviously, the intense serialization that dramas like yours possess make that impossible anyway. But people who love the show will watch the show, and people who discover the show probably aren't going to start with season four. Hopefully the FX marketing guys aren't listening to that, but that's probably the case.

Right? And so is that any consideration that you know, you know people are along the road are on a journey with you at this point and you can service them and tell the best version of the story that you've been telling from the beginning? No, we've just been talking about this the last few days and we're thinking about how to start the next season. I think certainly we understand that people aren't jumping in late. So that is helpful to us. But it also is relevant to the question of each season when you begin, do you pick up moments from where you left off? Or do you want to start, you know, a little later with a feeling of some piece of a new story starting.

And even these days where some people are binging and some people are really taking the summer off, so to speak, what kind of storytelling is best in this environment and what feels best? It's a complicated question. I don't think there's really an answer to it. Yeah, it is really hard because on the one hand, we are doing separate seasons,

and there's a big gap when you're doing 13 episodes, a big gap between seasons. And at the same time, some people just don't watch that way at all. Some people just sit down and we'll binge the whole show after it's done. Joe, what is your least favorite part of the show we broadcast? The least favorite. And then I'm going to tell you something that's going to make your head explode. I cannot stand the recap.

Cannot stand the recap. In the beginning. So this morning dropping my kids off at school. And it turns out there are a lot of fans at my kid's school. Okay. Completely coincidental to the fact that they know me, I am sure. People with very good taste. And several people came up to me and said,

thank goodness for that recap. It's been so long since the show's on. Okay, that's the thing. I don't mind having a season recap. That doesn't bother me. But then you get to the next episode or the next episode, and people have just watched the one before. I can't believe they need a recap.

It's pretty, and you know what's really irritating is that we have to spend time editing them. And, you know, TV viewing is so advanced now that people watch the recap as tells for what they're about to see. You know, they know. Well, I think that like, Of course, because they know why are they telling us this. Like on Game of Thrones, when there's so many characters to manage,

if we haven't seen ARIA in two weeks, and then Aria is in the recap, it's like, oh, Aria episode. And it's helpful in a show like that with so many people, but at the same time, you know, people have these, people, you know, spoilers are now on the level of micro-spoilers, you know. So it's like people might get a little sensitive about that. But what you guys are speaking to is something that really fascinates me about TV writing in general, which is, you know, where you choose to pick up the reins of your story is so crucial.

Because if you have that freedom, and that's wonderful. But if you pick the wrong moment, then there's dead time getting to where you want to be. You know, you have to pinpoint that moment. And yet, with a show like yours, where everything is building on what's come before, you can't take a year between pages, confession at the end of season three and the beginning of season four. It's just, it's too, too. Well, we talked about it. Did you talk about doing it? Not a year. There's a question. a year, but we talked about taking a big time jump and broke a lot of the story that way to see how it, to see how it would work, and it didn't quite work. For the reasons that I was intimating, that basically it's too urgent a moment to yada yada. I'd say that's a pretty good short description of why.

Yeah, too urgent a moment to yada yada was the note. That's good. Well, you show does film in New York. I feel like somebody says it's going to seep in. But it's true. Every season we ask that question, and one of the challenges, for us is moving forward through time. Every season we think we're going to cover a lot of time.

And what happens is our stories, on the one hand, they don't have a lot of doors being kicked in with guns. But on the other hand, they do have a certain emotional urgency to them. And that means the time frame gets tight. And the time frame is tight for the drama. And when it's working, you want to move quickly from one crisis to the next. And then we turn around six episodes in and realize we've traversed about two weeks of actual calendar time.

And add to that, that Joe and I are pretty obsessed with the actual calendar. Yeah, and you have that amazing wall in your offices of everything that happened in whatever year

you're covering that season. And you want to get that stuff in. I know you do. Yeah. So I wanted a couple things about the premiere and about the season in general. I'd like to talk about

both micro and macro ways. Micro meaning like the actual, how did you get this idea? Where did this idea come from? In macro, the relevance and what, that it might hold for the show in general. And I guess the most crucial place to start is what was in that vial,

which is a disease, a pathogen or germs of a disease called glanders, which is just one of the grossest words I've ever said out loud. Very disturbing, just in and of itself. Just wait for some of the things you're going to get to say. Oh, good. I appreciate that. Glander is going to sound like a beautiful song. See, this is a microspoiler that I appreciate. Because I can sort of, I can prepare myself. It's a micro-spoilers. It's a micro-bacterial spoiler. It's what it is. in very literal sense. At what point did the idea of bacterial weapons or chemical weapons enter into the show, and then how did you decide on this one?

Because we've heard of Chekhov's gun, but Chekhov's test tube is a new one for me. We were just doing research into different interesting places that we might want to go. And one of the things that has been very fruitful for us in the research realm in general has been stuff that came out only after the... fall of the Soviet Union. Something that had been going on. Yeah, yeah. And all sorts of things obviously came out after the fall of Soviet Union,

both because of archives that got opened up, even if just temporarily, or just people who wrote memoirs that, obviously, during the Soviet Union, they would have, you know, gone to jail. I mean, they never could have even dreamed of it. And a huge amount of information came out, primarily from memoirists after the Soviet Union fell, who had worked in this gigantic, secret weapons program that the Soviets had, to build biological weapons. And in fact, they had over 100,000 people

inside the Soviet Union working on this program. And the fact that, think about that many people working on a program that was fundamentally kept secret. Both inside the Soviet Union, outside of the people working on it, almost nobody knew about it. And Western intelligence agencies, you know, knew a little bit about it. Some things leaked out, but sort of the breadth of the program,

they fundamentally managed to keep secret. And it was incredible. I mean, the things they were doing and the things they were developing were just mind-boggling. when we started learning about that, it just immediately struck us that this was a great story for us to work on because you've seen so much in movies and TV about biological weapons, but it's always some version of, oh my God, you know, the whole eastern seaboard is going to be destroyed by

some terrible bacteriological weapon. The word stockpile is always used to. Right. Because the word stockpile. And we thought with what we were learning from our research, which was, you know, much more, very, very detailed. and obscure and strange, that we could build a kind of perfect American story that was more about not the guns and the people kicking in the doors, but our favorite illegals and the sort of emotional impact on them

of having these crazy pathogens. So it was just good, fruitful stuff for us. It's also a pretty irresistible metaphor. You know, of course, the idea of bringing poison to a home that is already completely rotten at this point. That had to have been too good to pass up. Is there a moment when you both reach that point, you know, and you're talking about it?

is the excitement the same? I feel like when you find something that's just the germ of something that's going to be fun to play with, that has to still be just on a day-to-day work relationship, that's just got to be fun. You said germ. See?

Well, for me, see, this is the stuff. Obviously, I miss writing recap because I'm going for as much wordplay as possible. But you're right. I think when it's working for us, that stuff is percolating, just as that word percolated for you, out of the subconscious and into the conversation.

And that's when you know the metaphor is really working. When we try to impose that on the story, it tends to fail. But when the story gives that to us, then it all comes to life. I think Mad Solar Sites was like making fun of us the other day for our relationship to metaphor, which I would describe this way, which is it always, we never start there. We always start with our excitement about a story. And then later than you would expect, somebody realizes the metaphor. And then we're both like, oh, fuck.

Yes. That was so obvious. How did we not realize that sooner? But that's how it should, I think that's the way it should be done. And then that leaves such delicious fruit for people like me to come around and pick and really make a nice cobbler out of. But when you talk about the process, a lot of the process between us is conscious, of course, and we talk a lot about these social issues, character issues, questions, plot, all of that.

But a lot of it is subconscious as well. And we'll talk about our dreams. and that becomes food for the show as well. Yeah, you never know quite know where it's going to come from, I would imagine. That's why the process is what it is. Speaking of potential poisons, obviously the question of Pastor Tim hung heavy over the season. And what's fun about the show,

and I think even people who said otherwise online knew what was going to happen here, obviously the joke was that this guy is DOA coming into the season because of what he knows and what we know he knows. and pretty soon Philip and Elizabeth will know too. What I appreciate about the show, and I don't think this is micro-spoiler of any kind to say, is that it is not the nature of the show to kick in the door with guns blazing at this potential threat.

The nature of your show that you've created is to find the story where the story is and to take advantage of the story possibilities. You knew that revelation was a big, big piece when it fell at the end of season. three. And I believe, Joel, when we talked about it, that the timing of that had been in flux at different points when page would know, what page would say, once you had decided to this course of action and you gather together, both the two of you and your room to talk about season

four, how has Pastor Tim's lifespan changed in those conversations? I'm not asking you to tell me one way or another, but obviously he is a part of the season. That storyline is a part of the season, and it's not, the way it's resolved or might be resolved doesn't seem to me to be an obvious one. Well, I'd say part of what excited us about the story is that it's a big problem for Philip and Elizabeth. And it's not one that can be solved by by guns blazing, at least not easily because their real consequences, as was discussed in the episode last night. And they've got to, they've got to work through that conflict and figure out how to handle this. And it isn't going to be easy. And all of that was food for interesting scenes.

Yeah. And, you know, I was realizing that one of the most interesting things about it is that it's very much in keeping with a fully awake sleeper agent or an operative in this case to have, I don't quite know how to put it, to have, it's not a fictional connection, but to have a surrogate relationship that begins to feel like a real thing. And what I mean is, you know, look at Philip and Martha, who have a functioning, one way or another, functioning marriage in the sense that all marriages are contracts that are agreed upon by both parties. In this case, they're agreeing to do it. So for Paige to have a surrogate father figure, that fits in with a family business. That is actually a tradition that is well established in the Jennings family.

She's modeling that on her parents, whether she realizes it or not. So the sense that it would immediately be seen as the worst possible outcome, that might not be the case for, you know, staunch observers of this unique family dynamic is all that fair to say. Right, I mean, keeping in mind that Philip and Elizabeth are not staunch observers

of their own family dynamic, but as audience members. I mean, Henry and Stan too fit into that same. Right, which is another thing just happening, they're not even aware of that one, which is, I appreciate.

I'm not sure what pathogens, Gabriel passed them to allow Henry to grow to the degree that he's grown in the season. That reminds me of like the Bella Russian athletes at the Olympics in the 70s.

That was horma. A lot happened. overnight there. I assume that was a surprise to everyone, except, I guess, nature. Another thing that came up to the beginning of the season that I was excited to see, and it's something that's been tracked throughout the show, but it's one of my favorite sort of things to watch, is just the sort of emotional devastation of Philip Jennings

and how everything within him is rebelling in a way. He is defecting against him. himself in a way because his emotions, whether it's because of Esther, just because of the stress of his job, is sort of taking over and he is not comfortable doing the terrible things that he's been doing anymore. And one thing that I really appreciated about this episode is you have the flashbacks, and we see young Philip do a terrible thing for the first time, we presume to be the first time. And I was thinking that it's, you know, it's crucial in storytelling.

I'm just curious your thoughts on this in general as storytellers. It's crucial not to judge your characters too harshly about what they do. do. But what I appreciated so much about the way you played that beat about young Philip coming from a place that was potentially relatable, potentially understandable, potentially sympathetic, and then doing something monstrous, is that you also didn't celebrate what he did, you know, and that's a fine line. People always say don't judge your characters for violence, but it's, to my mind, as a viewer, it's often worse when the needle goes the other way. The violence came from a relatable place. We almost understood why he did it, but we were still, I think, horrified by what he had done,

he was himself. That is a very tricky balancing act. And I realize as I come to the end of that thought, it's not a question. But I imagine that those, that balancing act is at the forefront of your minds during the process of writing the show. Well, you know, that's a situation where the setup itself really helps you. You know, I don't think we, I think we came from that without thinking too much of how we would celebrate judge mitigate. We didn't have to, in a sense, we didn't have to do any of that because the setup was pretty perfect. He's in-assed. talking about it, remembering it. So what that puts you naturally in a frame of mind for is just sympathy.

You see that because he's torturing himself over it. So you don't have to. You don't have to judge him. You're certainly not going to celebrate him. You're with him. You're just with him. So all of that is in a sense taken care of, I think. And I'd say also the whole premise of the show is that every person is a full dynamic.

human being with many facets. And it would be a mistake to fully celebrate anybody or to fully judge anybody. And really what the show is trying to do is see these people in the tough circumstance and, as you said, relate to them. One thing that I also have always really enjoyed and admired about the show

is that very often Philip has a lot of emotional scenes to play and Elizabeth has a lot of muscular scenes to play, which sort of flips the dynamic we often see with married couples on TV. just male and female roles on TV. Obviously, we're four seasons in now, but I'm curious, how early in the process did you realize that that Carrie and Matthew were able to play those notes so well?

In a sense, I think we saw that from the beginning, but we also saw that her, the great thing about Elizabeth and about Carrie playing Elizabeth is that her, she does have emotional scenes, but they're so, in the right times and the right places, they're very subtle and they're very complex. And sometimes they are and sometimes they are not also the muscular scenes. I would say as the show has gone forward, the muscular scenes have become very emotional.

I don't know that they were in the beginning, but they certainly are now. I think that's a great point, and I should clarify what I mean is that I think very often actors are tasked with scenes in which the emotion bubbles up and should be tamped down and bubbles up and has to be tamped down. Right. That's what Carrie does so masterfully on the show.

She plays those scenes. And so when the emotion comes, it's a shock to everyone, her included. Yeah. But it's obviously, you wouldn't be a performance if it wasn't present throughout. Well, just to extend your metaphor, what sometimes strikes me watching them on set or in dailies or in the cuts is that they're not playing notes so much as they're playing full courts. They manage to deliver multiple true emotions at the same time. And then when you get a singular note, it really gets you. Well, the funny thing is, you know, if there were no Elizabeth, you might actually watch the show and think,

boy, this Philip character really barely shows his emotion. It's also internalized. That's a great thing. That's like shades of gray, right? That's off white, white, egg shell. That's a good point. But, you know, this brings me back to a thought that I had earlier, and I expressed this to you guys when we were less able to speak. Just as a fan of writing on television, what I'm so constantly impressed by in your scripts and in the show in general is that you, every scene functions on an emotional level and not just as an expositional level. And you both worked in TV before this show and you both watch TV and you understand the way it works.

So much of TV is data dumps, whether it's artfully designed or not. It's to get from A to B to C. And, you know, I watched the new episodes with a real appreciation for how the scenes, particularly between Philip and Elizabeth, are communicating so much more than just what are we going to do about Glanders.

I'm curious how you, how rigorous is that process? Because you guys have a shorthand when you write together now, but you also have a room of writers who've been with you for a while. How much, I would imagine, and I'm pleased telling me if I'm wrong, that we're in other rooms a lot of time might be spent finessing how we're traveling that road from A to B to C, that you would do a lot of rewriting, finessing how we're getting from emotion A to deeper emotion B. Oh, I think that's, that's, thank you. all I can say is thank you

and by way of explanation what I'd say is in a way it's just a matter of us choosing what the focus is so we focus on telling that emotional story and in fact when it comes to the data

when it comes to the plot finally this season we articulated I think what we knew from season two in the back of our heads we were able to articulate clearly to ourselves and the entire staff which is it actually doesn't matter if the audience can follow the story.

What matters is that we can follow it as writers and that it makes sense to our characters. And if we as writers can understand why the characters are doing what they're doing, if that is clear to us, then the audience will come along for the ride. What the audience needs to get, what we want to follow is the emotional story. They'll get the spy story.

All that will unfold. It really doesn't matter if they're going, down a dark hallway exactly why or what's there. If they, if Philip and Elizabeth understand what's at stake, the audience will feel those stakes and eventually that part will become clear. But if the emotional tonalities are off, if that feels fake, then we've lost the whole war. I think that's such a crucial point to make because that's, as you said, that's your job, is to manage the details. And I think very often there's confusion as to whose job that is, especially in like it's an obsessive fan culture and people tracking everything and playing gotcha.

The truth is the fun, I think, of filmed entertainment is getting into that car closing the door and being taken on a trip. And the real issue isn't about what's happening. It's about whether you trust the person driving it. And emotional trust is what forges that bond, I think. And I think that's really well said. I think that's the journey that people like to be taken on on TV

even if they don't admit it. I think we have another advantage because usually in a first or second draft there, that exposition is in there. and you have to pull it out. And as you said about it, we are rigorous about it, but we have another advantage, which is on our show,

the exposition actually tends to be confusing just because of what's going on and what people are doing. So it's not like you're pulling out the exposition that makes the whole thing clear. By the third time, you sort of think it does? And then you're struggling,

oh, should we take this out, but nobody's going to get it, and then finally, you'll look each other and be like, actually, this barely makes sense. Nobody's going to get it anyway. We're probably making it more confusing. and then you're relieved and then you pull it out. I heard a story once, I'm sure this isn't fully true,

and I'm sure I'm getting it wrong, but that people who wrote on shows, medical shows, like shows like Grey's Anatomy, you know, are writing the emotional stories of these characters, and they have a handy metaphor for, you know, heart surgery, when they have broken hearts or whatever. And when they get to that scene, they just write medicine, medicine, medicine, medicine, medicine,

because they need an advisor and doctors to come in and say, well, no, that's an infarction or whatever it is. But I wonder if it's a similar story where you're just writing spy, spy, spy, spy, spy, but the real story is, you know, what's going on around that stuff. The guy in Falling Sky, Falling Skies, who would just write Tech the Tech. Yeah, right.

But I think when we do that, what we do there is we just don't write that stuff. And we just, we just tell the story that would happen to them. Right, the fallout from it. And hope that the audience will get it along the way. But there's a distinction because we actually like to write the spy things that they would actually say. Yeah. Even if the audience doesn't follow it. because that's authentic and adds a level of realism to the show.

It's more when they're, if people are sort of explaining why they're doing what they're doing, explaining what they're doing in a way that they wouldn't really explain it, or explaining their motivation in a way that they wouldn't really explain it, and it has a sort of, that just because of the depth of what these characters do and the way they think, that can also end up convoluted. And you could just sweep that out. Or are you happier afterwards? And the beauty of that is the result of that approach is that when you get scenes like dealing with Gene at the end, RIP, at the end of last season, we, I correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I don't think there was ever, there was no manifesto about what Philip was going to do or how he was going to do it, but we emotionally and intuitively understood what he was taking care of and what the cost was. And then what's more interesting is the, you know, the fallout from it.

You've taken us on the journey to the point where we know what has to be done, but it's as ugly to us as it is to them. And this particulars of, well, how is he going to set up the crime scene? How is he going to get in? They're good at what they do. That's fine. It's not an instructional film. It's a dramatic TV show.

And no offense, it's not a podcast. You don't want to listen to a recording of what's happening. You want to see it. It's a visual medium. And I just want to go back to what you said. It is not an instructional film for anyone who thinks it is. please do not do any of the things on the show except for being

open in your marriage, which we do recommend. Or you would need a much bigger suitcase. I think we need to be clear with that. That we tested. Did you? That's good. That was sadly based on a real murder case. Oh, God, was it? Yeah.

You know, I recently rewatched the Mad Men episode, The Suitcase, which is, you know, about selling suitcases. It makes a nice double feature with your show. Thank you. Which is like, here's how the ad, here's how Madison Avenue wants you to use these things, and here's what real life will have you pack in these bags. You know, you were talking about openness and marriage.

I was, as a married person and as a fan of television, this is what I love most about your show. And I was noting something this season, because, you know, as I said, I was really tracking the Philip and Elizabeth scenes and how they communicated with each other. And what's remarkable about it is that, you know, they speak, they have sort of an operational shorthand.

They have short moments to speak to each other, as they're taking off a wig, as they're passing into the bathroom, as Elizabeth's putting on her lotion or whatever, in the few moments they have between real life and fake life. And they have shorthand about how to go, what happened, how this. And I realized, oh, this is so brilliant, because all marriages end up this way. All marriages end up with, you're passing in the night, you have your, you have your various operatives or the operatives asleep. Did you slice the apples? Do we have extra bags for lunch?

It's not code. So that's an amazing observation. must be a lot of fun to play with, but it also suggests what your show carries over as well, which is people who are stuck in those roles and busy all the time, they need escape valves. You need something else to do. And throughout the three plus seasons of the show, Philip has at least explored that. Now, he's explored that with another marriage. He's explored that with another daughter in a creepy way with our friend Kimmy.

And he's explored that with a friendship with Stan, which I think was a legitimate friendship, even though it could be passed off as work. Elizabeth has not really done those things. Elizabeth has had many, she's been a honeypot, she's done all sorts of terrible things aside from that. But she seems to have resisted that extra layer of presence in them. So she has no real escape valve. And there's a storyline coming up that I won't spoil,

but she takes on another identity. And as she has happened in the past, she's quite good at it. She seems quite natural and almost seems to enjoy it. Again, I've talked my way into a not a question, just an observation, but I feel like there have to be consequences for that, for her inability to connect with any other part of herself. And I'm curious how much you've been tracking that as well. Obviously, that's the key part of the show, the difference

in the marriage in that way. But she doesn't let it, she doesn't let herself go in the way that he does. Well, it's a little chick in her egg, right? Does she not let herself go because she can't and doesn't? Or I think part of what you're suggesting in a way is the fact that she hasn't part of what's inhibiting her. But I don't think that's an answerable question, but I think the storyline you're referring to this season gets most, if not all of its power from the fact that it's kind of a first-time thing for her. And to some extent, through one prism, the whole show is about consequences. Right. And it's all about we can tell ourselves whatever stories we want about the actions we choose to take in our lives, and at the same time, there are going to be consequences.

Yeah. And yeah, there's this other amazing aspect to it, too, which is they could, and you reference it every so often, they could get out. I mean, they could pull the rip cord and potentially be exfiltrated and maybe live by the sea somewhere in Russia. But what's unspoken often is that that would be horrific for all of them. And not just because of the kids, but, you know, you. you know, they, the struggle, the stress, the anxiety, that is as much a part of them as everything else.

And, you know, as someone who relatively recently stopped, you know, writing about TV three or four days a week, I realized how much I complained about it, and then also how much it defined me and how much I enjoyed it. And I feel like there's a really not always flattering metaphor for work in general there. You know, I don't think I killed anyone in the process. Hopefully not even their careers. But that running through it, that, you know, as much as Philip wants to step away, I don't think he can imagine what he would do.

You don't look so good. You may be more relaxed, because you're like a shadow of your former self. I'm a mess. They had a hard job, but at least it was in the good old days before there were iPhones and internet and email. Their lives were relatively easy when you think about it.

They don't know how good they have. Can you imagine the late night texts from Martha alone? I know. It really wouldn't have been. Oh, my God. The whining from Philip. We're going to have two wives these days. No. No, I think that would be pretty remarkable.

I mentioned Kimmy is a character that I loved Julia Gardner's performance last season. It was just incredible. Does she return the season? She does. She'll be back. It's a micro-spoiler. Well, I feel like that's a positive one. Yeah, no, no.

Similarly, you know, one thing that I think you'd credit it to your meticulous planning, the planning that used to be Jol's and is now Joe's. but you know these characters like Kimmy like I knew I was going to forget her name and I have but Elizabeth's contact who works in Norad or the woman Lisa Lisa she'll be back to that's what I was going to say like these characters you've seeded them in a way that it almost seems like a luxury you know we care about them we don't know what they're there for yet but it doesn't matter and this is one of our this is one of our

challenges in terms of how we tell the story because we make certain assumptions and as we said we're telling Philip and Elizabeth's story and hoping that the audience will go along with them. But in our heads, Philip is still meeting with Kimmy once every two weeks. We're just not going to show those scenes until they're relevant to the central drama. Elizabeth is still meeting with Lisa. Philip's still meeting with Charles Duluth. And we'll get to them when and if we need to get to them.

But they're there for you to play with. They are. That said, I don't know if you've even been given the luxury of a grand game plan of how many more seasons the show might run. Regardless, I think it's probably safe to assume that we're past the halfway point, just in terms of the overall storytelling. I know John Landgraf, the head of FX, it suggested five seasons. Unless you want to be put on the record, I'm not going to ask you to go on the record about your own thoughts on that. But considering how meticulous you are, you must be considering the longer endgame here. And has that affected the storytelling this year, next year, in the sense that, oh, well, we're going to have to start contracting a little bit.

I mean, your story spans so many different, now it spans continents currently. And, you know, the trick about endings, and we're not there yet, thank goodness. But, you know, there's that moment when all the possibilities that are so exciting have to start becoming the realities and you have to start choosing the story that you ultimately are telling, instead of just all the possible stories you could tell. Well, as we now really buckle down, now that we stop procrastinating, we're buckling down, and figuring out season five, we are very much doing it with an end in sight.

I don't think we know yet if it's going to be five or six seasons, but we think it'll be one of those two. And so there really is no way now to break this next batch of story without figuring out how the whole thing is coming together in the end. But I don't think, I don't have any sense of it feeling connected to a contraction in story. That's just not the feeling I have. It feels like the last run of story. and it feels

it feels frankly expansive it feels like we get to do this last runout and the pieces that we have feel like look it's a little bit early days but it feels like the pieces we have are gonna are gonna slot in slot in comfortably that we don't have to

get rid of things we don't want to get rid of for example or people you don't want to get rid of I say that with real anguish because you know I've written this since season one or season two about the show, which is, I love the show, but it's sort of this painful love because I don't see any way this ends well. I just don't. I'm not asking you to say one way or another. I would never want to know in advance, but you've never flinched from the darkness that exists at the heart of this story that you've created, this balancing act, and that, you know, you can't stay up with

the type of forever. Okay, right. Well, in the bigger sense, you know, I think, well, the good guys win, right? I mean, the good guys win big picture, right? Look at us. We're not sure they're We're the good guys. It's a nuanced world, isn't it? It is, especially now. But for example, I'll use a more specific example. One of the things that I've always loved when you've been able to service it in the show is the friendship between Philip and Stan because it's legitimate.

They are both lonely guys and they connect on a certain level, even if they can't be wholly truthful with one another. The turn that we saw last night in the season premiere in their relationship, was surprising but very much earned. You know, it wasn't because of what... It was ironically what the FBI guy, he discovered the wrong thing. He had bad intel.

Even if he was going out... The right instinct. The right instinct. Exactly. And right back in the place where he first suspected him, too, right back in the garage. Is it okay that I want to mourn that friendship a little bit?

I mean, obviously, there's more story left to tell there, but the decision to turn it on that particular dime, I just always... It didn't feel like there was ever... enough real estate to really like just have a bar night with them. It's funny that that's the kind of thing we don't want to comment on. That's what it says it all about the show.

Terrific. It feels like that would be a spoiler. Oh, that's great. We're not telling you where that relationship is going. We'll name all of the pathogens though. Okay, that's funny. I love that. I love that I talk to you guys to a dead end.

But this is the thing. Like, the show is so intricately plotted and you have so many things to service and you service all of them so well. But I find myself wanting to almost argue against myself. And I almost want to say, oh, I wish you could just do a bottle episode of them hanging out because these little moments, you know, I just, maybe just one act of Philip trying on cowboy boots again. The studio would like that too. We always talked about them going on a fishing trip. We always were halfway to breaking that story, the Stan Philip fishing trip.

With the kids along. Yeah, camping. That's always been on the board. But you said the studio wants it, and it's funny, though. This is real. Well, they want it because it'd be cheap to do a bottle show. Oh, okay. I thought you meant, because in general, there's still, it's an interesting comment on where we are with TV, which is, you know, this isn't the funniest version of the show. This isn't the most lighthearted version of a spy family show, but it's the best and truest version, and it's the version you guys want to tell. And so that's the show that's being funded and supported and watch, and that's sort of an interesting

thing. So I did, you know, whenever I heap praise on your show, which is often and often in person, you know, I talk about why I think it's not just my favorite show on TV, I think it's the best drama on TV. And I think that's an interesting comment to make in this moment because as we're seeing,

serialized drama despite having sort of lifted the art form for the last 10 or 15 years I think is kind of having a tough moment networks are having trouble launching new ones that get attention viewers are rejecting them after sampling them and we're seeing a lot more movement towards anthology series and limited series which allow more flexibility both in terms of casting and storytelling and comedies are all these pieces now that the comedies are taken over Well, I think the truth is that for, you know, I think Mo Ryan argued this in a piece and variety this week, and I tend to agree with it. Because everyone was so focused on the prestige drama, the prestige drama became kind of a calcified thing in the season of a certain number of episodes and what happened in each episode. And the penultimate episode being the one where someone dies. And then, you know, it became very familiar where comedy is suddenly, was left ignored a little bit and it has more emotional freedom to tell different types of stories.

I don't want to get you guys necessarily talking about the virtues of comedy, although I'd love to hear it. A lot of great comedy. What I'm curious about is... There's such great comedy on it, and sorry, but now you're going to get us to talk about the virtues of comedy. Okay, we'll circle back to that. I just want to... You guys have figured out a way to tell a drama that functions on two levels.

It is absolutely gripping and emotionally engaging in the way that only television drama can be, and yet you were able to sort of Trojan horse that in a big sexy premise that cut through the clutter of the development cycle. You know, obviously five or six years ago, when Joe, when you started with this and Joel, you came on, it was a... totally different landscape then. But I think that you guys are the great TV drama right now. I don't know what the next one is or what it could be.

I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that landscape of TV drama if you have a moment to step back from making one. Well, I will say to your point about how much it's changed. We talk about this, it hasn't been that long. No. I've been on the air for four years, and it has felt like, it's felt like it's changed more than once. It has felt like the flux in this space has been astonishing in these four.

short years. It's kind of mind-boggling. And still, the amount of good television is also mind-boggling. I mean, there's so much, it's impossible to keep up. I would certainly agree with that, and I feel relieved that I'm a little bit out of that game, because it is impossible to keep up.

And I wonder if that's part of the appeal of these limited series, is they just feel like a more less commendable commitment. I think that's definitely a part of it. And OJ is brilliant, and Fargo is brilliant. And, God, I mean, I just hunger for every episode of OJ. And also, I realize that once I watched the 10th episode, I could get to move on with my life.

Exactly. And, you know, history is the ultimate spoiler there. So you're actually being able, you're freed to watch it for the nuance and the character stuff and the details and not worry about the larger piece of, you know, larger piece of the puzzle because we know, though, they're on the historical record. And then, you know, you mentioned comedies earlier. I think part of what's so beautiful about what's happening in comedy now is there's this genre of comedy that's not focused on the laugh. The tromedies. Well, tromedes,

that's pretty funny. But I think girls is having a wonderful season. Girls have a great season. Just so moving and rich and real. And baskets is incredible. I mean, I think that Louis Anderson character may be the most heartbreakingly real character. I've seen on TV in a long time.

And here's an actor, mostly known as a comedian who's dressing in a dress and a wig. It should be a joke, but it's just real and beautiful. Yeah. I mean, what's great for us, there's obviously space for all of this. And most of this change has been very positive for us, because when we started out, a scant four years ago, it was still considerable pressure to attain a level of ratings that this show was not going to attain. I have to say that at FX and with the support we had, we were under a lot less pressure for that

than I think most other shows would have been at other networks. So we were already okay. But even that pressure that we were under has abated so considerably that, you know, with our not great ratings, we're doing great. And boy, that's a nice place to be. That's exactly what I was going to say. There was a fear from the outside, of course, whenever you fall in love with something, you want it to last and you're worried about it.

And I remember, you know, coming out of season one and two, I'm sure, you know, your conversations internally were very different from what we were aware of outside, but there felt like palpable fear. Can we save this beautiful thing? Because the ratings were never breaking the bank, mixed metaphor, but you know what I mean. But I would say this, that three or four years ago, the idea of a show getting modest ratings, critical acclaim, and it just being assumed that you would be able to tell your story, which I now feel mostly comfortable doing, although people should still watch live, that felt like crazy talk. That is not an assumed thing. But we certainly are, I A lot of credit goes to FX and John Langraff.

He picked up the second season very early in the first season. And when he did, he said one of the reasons he wanted to do it is he wanted to send a message to the people who were watching that they should invest in the show and that he was going to stick with the show. And early on when he went to TCA and said he sees this as at least a five-season show, I think that was another way of sending a message to the audience that it was okay to invest. I mean, it must be both satisfying on some level but also a little frustrating that because of the way the landscape is now, your show will exist for people to watch in its entirety for a long time. People will be discovering the show and maybe hopefully going back to old podcasts, but mostly discovering the show and going through this emotional trauma and this roller coaster and this great pleasure that the show provides for many years to come. I don't know if that mitigates what must still be a little bit of frustration that, you know, the ratings aren't blockbuster ratings, that I often, you know, I preach not just to the choir. And I, you know, there's attrition. People come around to the show, but it is not the immediate gratification of an OJ show, for example.

Does that balance exist for both of you? I mean, have you moved past those worries, those frustrations? I think I pretty much move past it. Yeah. I'm not sure I care. I'm not sure I care about the issue you raise. If people come to the show later, that's great. I mean, to me, that's as opposed to people forget about it when it's over.

So if people come to it later, how great would that be if it has a afterlife? Just to wrap up, one of the other challenges, you always have challenges in every season. You film very close to where I live, and I know for personal fact of how snow and super storms and things have always bedeviled your production. This year there was a happier happenstance in that one of your lead actors was pregnant through the majority of not all of the filming.

Did that cause any hiccups? How was that addressed? Because I don't believe, unless, I mean, please don't spoil it. I don't think she got to hiccups. That's good. That can happen early on, right? First trimester. I don't believe that Elizabeth Jennings becomes pregnant this season, although feel free to

deny it if she does. But you had to sort of shoot around that, is that correct? We did, and we're not the first. showed after shoot around that for an actor for a star. We did accelerate the production schedule a bit and we employed some tricks that we hope the audience won't notice, but some that the audience if they're paying attention will notice. There are a lot of big coats that get worn. She carries a lot of groceries. A lot of monologues behind chairs. Well, there's a, there's a good, there's one good seen with an open refrigerator door.

Oh, that's a good one. There are laundry baskets. At one point, there's a very big salad bowl. I have no idea where the props department found it, but it's very useful. World's largest salad bowl. Is there like a Winston Wolf, you know, Harvey Kytel and Pulp Fiction for onset pregnancies? Like a guy that the networks call in, he's like, okay, okay, fellas, here's how we're going to fix this. Well, the one thing we have today is CGI.

Right. And although it's expensive, you can use it, and we're banking on the fact that if we use it a few times in every episode, then you'll forgive the coats and the laundry baskets and the groceries. Few people know that Clark's hair was CGI this whole time, right? That actually wasn't a wig. That was that sort of CGI that looks real kind of thing that you've been doing. The male robot's the only real actor on the show. That guy, that guy, I mean, he really carries his weight around there. How often do you check back in in your writer's room and they've come up with like an A story for male robot? Like that's just,

that if you leave people unattended, that's what they try to do. It's interesting question. I was going to say no comment. You think it would be a spoiling. There's something about the male robot. I ask the right questions. The Mel Robot can kind of fade from memory unless you really, really stay on people.

Don't forget the male robot. Don't forget the male robot. It's interesting. It's important. And I just want to be honest, the male robot has some enemies. Oh. Yeah, I can't say more.

Okay, please don't. That's very exciting. Okay, so we should write. up here, as we said, no spoilers, no micro-spoilers, but since I have the opportunity to have you both here, we've just begun, as viewers, we've just begun this fourth season. We're one episode in, we know there's a pathogen in a vial. We know Pastor Tim has his own pathogen rattling around in his head right now. We know that Martha is in a rough place. We know Nina remains in a rough place. What would you like to tell viewers of the show? Like, emotional themes, things that they

might want to look forward to, things they might want to cover their eyes for. what is the journey we're going to be going on this season? I think that one thing that we were really happy with this season was how the connection between Philip and Elizabeth moved up and down into some really interesting, surprising places this season. So if you're one of the viewers who enjoys that relationship and the places it goes, you'll have a fun season. And I'll add that you early on brought up the issue of consequences,

and I think this will be a season of consequences. Oh, see, that's how you drop the mic. See, now I'm just anxious. I feel like, you know, The Walking Dead as the Talking Dead, I feel like maybe at the end of the Americans, at the end of the season five or season six, there should be just some sort of like group hug show where you just comfort everyone.

Like the end of the Mary Tyler Moore show, right? Exactly, yes. Okay, I'm just putting it out there now, but I think it would be very much appreciated. Joe Weisberg, Joel Fields, has always a great pleasure to talk to you, and best of luck with the season to come. Thanks, Andy.

Thank you.