The Watch - Ep. 34: 'The Watch'

Episode Date: April 20, 2016

Andy and Chris prepare for the 'Game of Thrones' premiere with help from Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion (16:30). Then, Oscar-winning director Richard Linklater joins (42:00) to discuss his new film, 'Everybody Wants Some!!' Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello! And welcome to the watch on the Channel 33 podcast feed. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and with me in the studio. First of his name, it's Andy Greenwald. We're back, baby. Feels good to be here. Man, we got you. We got some guests.

We'll get to them. We got Jason Concepcio, Malia, Rubin, and Richard Linglater. Yeah, not all at once. Not all at once. all in the studio but we got you we got a special Richard Linklater interview coming at the end of the watch go check out his movie everybody wants some it is delightful really rekindled my interest in baseball are they showing that on airplanes yet or now talk to me next year okay what's up man this is a big time Chris look at us

we're sitting in different seats I know I switch it up this is relevant information what we want to do today is talk a little about Game of Thrones season six what else I don't know anything else to talk about did Dillman get like impeached what happened I'm off the news we're going to talk about the different voting potential of the upper house in Brazil versus the lower house who impeached as we all know

impeached President Dilma just the other night but before we get to that we're going to talk about by the way Chris legit texted me and said we're going to talk about the Brazilian impeachment scandal Dilma was like way more interesting than the NBA playoffs on Sunday that's rough Chris we got to talk about

we're going to talk about Game of Thrones but we got to talk a little bit about our show we got to give people some more info about After the Thrones, which is weirdly our TV show, which I'm out here taping. We're getting excited about it. I'm taping it too. Oh. Yeah, so it's okay.

I thought you were the stand-in until Chris Hardwick got here. No? Katie Nolan is en route. You know, look, we're so excited about this. We're having a great time. But I think it's good for our motivation that we feel like the executive producers have eight digits of Hardwick and Katie Nolan's number dialed on their cell phones at all times and they just have their thumb over the button.

Just in case. Yeah, so this, we should, just some more details, just to sort of sketch it out, right? We're basically, this is going to be a visual version of, if you like to watch the Thrones podcast, we're trying to capture the same vibe, explanation with a little bit of fun, doing a little context around certain things that you're going to be seeing on the season. Like I said last time, I'm hoping for some prop humor. Yeah. Although I can't guarantee that yet.

We may have some guests, may have some special friends joining us. Here's the relevant info. Hardwick, Nolan. Hardwick, Nolan. On call. They're literally outside the door right. Now, yeah, we're going to have some guests. Here's the relevant info, because people are a little bit confused about this.

Okay, so the show is premiering April 25th. It's Monday. It's the day after Game of Thrones Season 6 premiere. Yes. It is premiering on HBO now. It is premiering on HBO Go. It is... You can only really premiere in one place, but go ahead.

Why do you feel the rhythm I had building up? This is why I can only work with Katie. Because I'm an editor at the ringer.com. You should sign up for our newsletter at the ringer.com where you can see some of my editing handiwork. And if you do, you know, I would tell you, you can only promote you. mirror in one place. Am I right, Mal? You're right, Christopher.

Did you just... I had this run going. I was feeling it. I have no idea what that feels like to have a run going and have somebody interrupt me with... How! Are we working? Are we... Is this friction happening? I'm just trying to say here... Look, I was trying to promote my show that you're helping me out with after the... Look, we're going to work this out.

We're going to work this out before we get on camera. It's our show! Let's go, come on. Okay, it's our show for now. April 25th. HBO now, right? Yeah. HBO Go. Yeah.

HBO on demand. Apparently. And it's going to be on HBO HBO HBO. HBO IRO. HBO IRL. Yeah. It is going to be on all those things. No, it's going to be on linear television.

So if you have a Magnavox and you're like, you just paid for HBO in 86 to get a Tyson fight, we'll be there. But we're going to be there. And we're excited about it. it is not going to be a podcast, right? No, but we will have a podcast presence of a Thrones podcast presence. So don't, you won't miss this on the air. And the other thing that people have been asking us a lot is, will people are from all over the world?

People are like, will I be able to watch you in my country? Yeah. In my home country. Like people who, you know, are watching the Dilma scandal unfold in Brazil are Brazilian fans. Also some dude in South Africa keeps tweeting, will I be able to watch you? And then he goes, hashtag. diplomatic community! But guess what?

Classically the weapon two joke. Guess what though? We are on in South Africa, someone told us. No. You're making so many promises. Look, no. Can I, can I do,

can we do more lethal weapon two here? Can we talk about the part where the dude in the embassy goes, but, but your blick? Your blick. Can we just do that? Can we find a way to make that voice?

Whatever you need, Leo gets. Can we do that? voice but talk about Castle Blik. You know what I mean? South African Game of Thrones kind of? South African lethal weapon-toon Game of Thrones. Do you sell swords compete for Kruger Rants? Can people tell that we've been talking to each other since 7 a.m. this morning? Yeah, okay, so let's lock into a quick, we wanted, we're obviously going to have Mal and Jason.

We're going to talk about Game of Thrones season six. We're going to preview. Really quickly before we do that, let's just do quick in and out because I know you had some takes. I got some takes. So in or out, new season of Kimmy Schmidt on Netflix. Yeah, new season of Kimmy Schmidt debuted on Friday on Netflix. I love the first season. I love the second season.

I love a Tina Fey and Robert Carlock joke. There's so many jokes on this show. But here's my take on this. Do you want to take? Yeah. I love the show. But I watch it, and I sort of can't believe that they're allowed to make this show. We've talked a lot recently about bespoke television, how, you know, there's so many shows

that are almost being tailored to very, very specific tastes. almost tailored to the point of just I can't believe anyone other than me and maybe 20 other people like it. The hardest laugh this show got for me in the first three or four episodes is when Ellie Kemper's character, the titular, Kimmy Schmidt,

is walking down a block in Brooklyn where her character lives and there's like a big construction site. And along the wall of it, as she walks, it's revealed that it says, coming soon, nine new banks. Okay, and I really laughed. And I know Jason is chucked.

about it too because we live in New York and like that's a very New York joke. Yeah. Does that play? Do you know what I mean? Like the number one thing I thought of when watching this new season of this show, oh by the way, I'm in. Sorry, I forgot about our conceit for a second. But I forgot about, I mean, it made me think of Horace and Pete,

which is basically a vanity project that has moments of artistic triumph and also moments from just like, it's very clear. No one was telling him what to do. Dick Kimmy Schmidt also put Luis E.K. in millions and dollars of dead. Weirdly it did. He invested in that one too. He's kind of screwed. He's just throwing his money around.

No, but it's like Netflix is just letting Tina Fey make this very, very weird show where some of the best jokes are about bank construction in gentrified Brooklyn. Or like a character John Hamm played uncredited last year, and they're making that joke about, they're make a joke about that character inventing the Buy the World of Coke commercial. I don't want to get too far away from this being a rapid fire segment. Yeah. Is this because there's no ads?

So they're not like playing to... Because the first season was made for NBC before NBC decided they didn't want it. The kind of... The relationship that these shows have with their audience is different than the way they used to be, say, if it's such an ABC or NBC show where they have to play to like a certain... It's possible. Procter & Gamble wants this to reach X people. It made me think of, you know, some of the comments we've been making about Better Call Saul recently,

which is like maybe the thing that these geniuses of the last era of television have earned are these strange sort of tenure where they get removed from the battlefield and they get to make the show that they want to make at their own. pace to their chase their own muses and not really worry about the scrum. Yeah. You know, which is, that's the envy of everyone creatively. Like everyone would love to make a show note-free and, you know, just make jokes that they find funny or whatever.

But it does lead to this strange feeling of a little bit of a vacuum, which is fine. I love the show. But it's just, I can't believe that this is a mass-produced thing for more people, for people who don't live in rapidly gentrifying areas of Brooklyn. I am looking forward to checking it out. I really sold it. In-Out. Do I pitch my own in and out?

No, I'll ask you one. Thanks. There's a movie. Yeah. It's called Matt Damon Green Zone. That's right. No, that would be an anti-plained movie because you would have been seeing in a Rack War movie six years later.

Can't wait. No, you saw Green Room. Yeah. And you're hype. Green Room! Because I got to give it the Sicario shout, because it's the most intense film I've seen since Sicario. Jeremy Salnier's, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, and probably not.

Second film, his first film was Blue Room. He likes colors. At least in the titles, yeah. This is all about white supremacists, so not so much in this movie. This movie stars Patrick Stewart as a, the sort of patriarch of a white supremacist. My neighbor in Gentrified Brooklyn. Not in this one. Anton Yelchin and Imogen Poots, who comes through with a crazy good performance.

Boots! That's a good one. The double O works with her. There is about 35 minutes of setup in this movie, and then it grabs your throat. and it does not let you go for such a long time. I told Ryan O'Hanlon, who we work with, to go see it. And four hours later, he just texted me back. I feel like you have made it your mission to expose me to the most violent art possible.

I saw him. He looked shook today. His eyes are red. He's not okay. Yeah. So I can't recommend this movie more highly if you have an appetite for extreme knife violence. So to be clear, I'm not going to see this movie. Nor should I.

Yeah. So I'm out, but you're in. Yeah, the premise is Anton Yelchin is in a band called The Aint Rites, who are a hardcore punk band from, I think, Virginia. Are they better or worse than the nasty bits? They're so much better. They tour to the West Coast. They're playing in Oregon, and they wind up getting a show at a rural Oregon bar.

It's already mistaken. And they think, like, okay, we'll go play. And they're warned that there are some skinheads there, but they're like, well, we'll just go through with it to get the money. And everything goes wrong from there. Everything. That's great. Because I was expecting that they, like, walked in,

and, like, the Decembrists were playing. You know what I mean? I'm picturing like, about this movie and this is what Sonior does is that he basically puts people in extreme situations like Repo Men, you know,

like Ripa Men loves extreme situations. It's a repo men joke. He just like is like, what if I made a horror movie... By the way, it went over great in the room, everybody. What if I made... Jason liked it. What if I made a horror movie about real situations? So it's just like the same thing with Blue Ruin, which is basically a vengeance movie

or this film, which is basically a panic room type haunted house almost movie. But he's like, what if we imbued that with like real, real realism? Do you, is it, does it create a feeling that you could relate to from the moment when they shut the door on us in the studio this morning on the set of After the Thrones for the first time? And the silence was like the silence was like the grave. And I literally for a moment, I was like, this must be what it feels like in the crypt below Winterfell. Yes, except in this movie there's a band called Cow Snatcher that keeps playing. Oh, well, I feel like that would liven it up on our show.

Speaking of movies, we want to do one more in and out before we get out of here. quick. I know you saw a wonderful film. It's a thing. I saw two movies yesterday. I've given into Andy's plane movies for as much as this bothers me. Andy, what did you see on the plane coming out? And were you in and out of those movies? I saw a movie called Mad Max

Furry Road. Am I pronouncing that right? Yes. That's what the Virgin American version is. It was weirdly sanitized. It was about baseball mascots running to the desert. Look, I know you called me out on this one because this movie

did pretty good business. We're coming up on it to your anniversary. 2015. It was nominated for a lot of Oscars. I did a little deep Wikipediaing. Did you? This movie was filmed in 2012. Yep.

Talked about that last year. So this movie is older than us doing podcasts, or at least as old. It seriously is. It is. I think there probably is like a Hollywood perspective where we're like, are here that they're rebooting at max. We did a 30-minute run just off the names on IMDB. Oh, yeah, right.

That's right. That was my last commentary on the film. I was like, this good movie has a character named Doof. It can't be good. You get like a Tash and Coffee Tablebook. Seriously. I just wanted to say, hey, everyone, good job on this one. You were right.

Boy, that movie was great. And I know I saw it the way George Miller and God intended it, which was on an 8-inch screen on a Delta flight. So I really felt like I was there. You really feel it. I was like in Namibia. Yeah. That's what they're talking about with VR. They want you to feel that.

I felt hooked up to a blood bank. Like, I felt like a warboy on this film. on this flight. No, you know what my takeaway was? I was like, I just feel thrilled that human species can still produce things like this. It was so exciting. What did you think of sisters?

How'd you know that was the other movie? Because you told me. Yeah, I almost tweeted it. I told Chris, like, what was your other movie? And I was like, sisters. And Chris's text back was, nah, dog. Just hard out.

I enjoyed it too. I mean, now you're not letting me, like, live in the moment here or the reactions. But I like, it was better than I thought it was going to be. Was it a R-rated movie? Oh, hard R. Oh, yeah. Does anybody get stabbed with a box cutter in that movie? Ike Berenholtz gets a ballet music box up his rectum.

Oh. And then it keeps turning. Is that like Green Room? That is a lot like Green Room? Is it played for laughs in the same way? No, I thought that movie, like I feel like the thing about those two movies, like Mad Max is the A-plus version of an action movie.

I can't believe you try to draw through lines through these movies that just you are only connected because you watch them. What's the other through line that I was eating cheese hits during both of them? Like I need to, this is, this is my clay. I need to mold it into something. But sister, like there's a version of sisters where it would actually be like a very smart, interesting movie. Yeah. This was the hard R broad comedy version of it.

And it actually was smarter than I thought it was going to be. It wasn't disdainful of its characters in a way. It was sort of kind of supportive of the fact that these adults, wanted to have a good time, which I could relate to as an adult. But, yeah, there weren't enough furries. Well, you love Tina Fey. That's what we've learned. Well, actually, Polar was great in it. All right.

Samantha B. Boy, have you ever been less interested in a segment on the show? I think it just hit me that we've been speaking since 7 o'clock in the morning. Okay, you know what? Let's do this. Katie, Chris, do you want to get in here? Let's take a quick break from our spot. We hear a word from our sponsors, the words of our sponsors, which are read by me. And then we'll come back and talk to Mallory and Jason by Game of Thrones.

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That's B-O-U-Q-S dot com, promo code B-SPN. Bookes.com, promo code B-SPN. Get some flowers. We're back, and we got Mallory and Jason with us to talk about After the Thrones and Game of Thrones. Can I just say, you guys, I'm so happy that you guys are part of this with us. And not only because you are our dear friends, and it's so fun recording strange television shows and podcasts with you,

but also because you save our asses. Like the time today we got a major plot point wrong. And when I was like, it was Sylvio Farrell who. But that's because you were just picturing Stephen Van Zand. And like, you just love HBO premium shows so much. All men must serve. We're here to help. Thank you.

It's really essential. Guys, we wanted to talk a little bit about just like, let her hair down. Don't put it in front of your face. Just let your hair down. I want to talk a little bit granular about some of these plot lines that are coming up and get a sense of if there's any context we can help people with because one of the things I was one of watching the end of season five that came up and I want to start with the north here is watching Ramsey and Roos and their rather aggressive

moves getting right into it yeah what's what are they what's their plan because like they routed Stanis what they route yeah they really rock his world They really, really get them. What are they planning to do there? They're just, the thing you have to understand with the Bolton's is they're an ancient, ancient house and nobody really likes them. Every overlord of every area of Westrose kind of has this one house that is eagerly awaiting their downfall so they can snatch up their shit. The Bolton's were that for the Starks with the slight detail added that no one else likes them because they flay people for thousands. thousands of years.

Let's take one step further back. Because this is the stuff that I feel like contextually, like people can watch these seasons of the show without knowing this, but it really helps. And it's been a while. When Ned Stark was still an intact human being. Yes. Head and everything.

So long ago. So long ago. He had a, the Bolton's followed him. He had the Bolton's in line. How and why? Because they were a vassal. They are a vassal house to the Starks. When Rob called his banners, because Ned got

stabbed through the leg by Jamie way back in season one. I remember that. The Bolton's were down with it. They were ready to go because that's how it works. Right. But if you go back thousands of years in the past, the Bolton's have rose against the Stark's before. They've sacked Winterfell, you know,

three or four times several centuries ago. So they've been waiting for their chance. And now that they have it, I mean, their play right now is, just to hold on to power. Now, if you had to tell us which person to keep an eye on in season six, is it Ramsey or Roos? Like, who do you feel like is the real shot caller here? Shot caller Roos, person to keep an eye on Ramsey.

Person taking the shots is Ramsey. Yeah, I mean, he's just sort of out there on the front line. Like, you know, it was interesting that Ramsey was the one who led the sort of sneak attack on Stanis's camp. He said, just give me 20 good men, and then he lit all the tents on fire. I burned the siege towers. Burn those poor horses. Roll the horses. And Ramsey is actually like worst case scenario of what Joffrey would have become because

he's a sadist who's actually good at being leader, it seems like. Right. And now he's legitimized by Tomlin, himself a bastard, of course, as Sansa. So rudely pointed out to Ramsey at the end of season five. But in theory, as long as Tomlin holds his throne, Ramsey is a Bolton. The Bolton's are the wardens of the north. So he has legitimacy and he has power along with a truly evil. heart and he's out there on the front lines. He led the main attack on Stannis's troops in the

season five finale. He was just out there shoving swords into the spines of dying men. I surrender. So what can, so their goal going forward is to hold the north. They are allied now with the lanisters. Sure. Right? In terms of the lannisters will empower them to hold the north. It doesn't mean much. And remember, Circe does find out from Littlefinger. that Sanza is at Winterfell with the Bolton's, and Circe basically is aware of the Bolton's betrayal. She's not aware of Littlefinger's role, right? So they're going to be on her shit list,

along with pretty much everyone else in the Seven Kingdoms at this point. And just to remind people, where is Little Finger at season five's end? Because he's left Sansa to her wonderful marriage. He's basically given them a gift. He gave them some candelabras and some spa treatments and was out. And it's a good quick. I booking through the snow somewhere, like running through waist-high snow? Unless where we see him in the trailer is in snow.

It's worth probably remembering that one of the lessons Little Finger gives to Sansa is like essentially always keep your enemies guessing. You know, like that is his entire MO is to be so unpredictable that his enemies slash like secret friends don't know what he's up to. And that he is actually the only character for whom that extends to the viewers. Like we don't actually really know what he's up to or what he's thinking. we just know that he thinks chaos is a ladder and what do you do to those who hurt the ones you love?

So those are his driving forces at this point, revenge and his own assent. This is the interesting thing, well, there are many interesting things about the show, but as we've been preparing to talk this much about it, I've been sort of realizing that the sense of scale is still one that we don't appreciate or remember often in terms of television. Yeah, I was just asking him where the Iron Islands were because I thought that they were like south of, I thought that they were like southeast of Winterfell

right, they were like all the way on the west. But not even just on the map. Like any, we could say like, well, here are the wild cards for the storylines in season six. And then we would forget that Littlefinger has essentially operated as the ultimate wild card for five going on six seasons. And he's very, very easy to forget, which is by design.

Right now, right? He's now, he's got his own Moondor. Yes. He's Lord of the Vale, right? Yes. But, well, in the sense that he is he is like the caretaker for young Lord Aaron. Oh, who he is stashed at the fake store. Until he comes into his majority,

Little Finger does essentially run the app. And it seemed to me like when they put, without knowing anything about the books, like I don't know if they get into this, but like it seemed to me when they have that scene in five before I think they go to the bar that Brienne sees them at, and Little Finger's just like, let's get this kid's sword training. and they're like, yeah, that's like not going to work out for this dude.

He doesn't have a lot of hand-eye coordination. It seems like that's just a recipe to like, how can I X this kid out? I know I'll just put him in like a really violent combat situation as soon as possible. Here's something, though, to think about going forward, right? Because the type of things we're talking about, I'm using Little Finger as the example, but there are many, many others that we could grab onto. As the show deviates from the books and steers towards an end game, because, you know, we can talk about this too, that Beniof and Wye's,

have more or less confirmed that the show will end after eight seasons and that the season seven and season eight might be shorter. They might be six or seven episodes each. So as the show steers towards an endgame, clearly more quickly than George R.R. Martin is steering towards his endgame, which either suggests different end games or certainly less detailed end games, right? What is the pressure on Beniof and Weiss to, if, for example, Littlefinger plays an enormous role?

how do they calibrate that? Because the whole point of Littlefinger is that he's away and then he's back, he's away, then he's back. If he suddenly swoops in at the end of season seven and it's just like, psych, I've been the mastermind all along, how do you make that feel earned? You know what I mean? Even though his involvement is not as key at this point,

as Bruce Bolton, for example. How do you maintain his presence as a threat without overplaying your hand? Is such a thing even possible? I don't know, and that's why I'm glad I don't write the show? Or the books? Or the books? It's a good question. Is anyone writing the books currently? It's a good

question. I will hold strong to my belief that the books will come out sometime this winter. Yeah? I don't know. Sorry, I interrupted. Have you blown one of your deadlines, your prediction deadlines? Yeah, I really did think it was going to come out before this season. But I was wrong. And I will be wrong again.

You know, Little Finger, the thing about Little Finger, is even though he runs the veil, like, there's, there aren't too many houses that are really jumping at the bit to, like, follow Littlefinger into war. So even though he nominally holds the veil, if he was to push it too far, people would, they'd X him out. Right. So he's, he has to keep sticking and moving, because that's the only way that he's able to really exercise whatever power that he has. I also think that's just why people are so invested in characters like Danny and John. You know, right? Like, even characters like Aria and Sansa, who people adore and really care about and find immensely entertaining, it's hard to envision them factoring into the end game quite the way that it seems like John and Danny Will as long as they're both alive.

Right. Right. So, like, you know, with a tale this sprawling, it is impossible for all of the characters to, A, make it to the end and B, have a meaningful impact on the end. And that is actually what makes someone like Littlefinger so interesting. It's like he's either sort of got to get got. or become comfortable with his role as puppet master as opposed to... Right. Everyone does have a role to play, but that role has to be, just by nature, has to become more defined.

And what you're alluding to, Mallory, is exactly why, and we said all this at the end of last season, but I think it bears saying again, the reason why we are all 1,000, along with the rest of the world, 1,000 percent convinced that John Snow is coming back, is that it's too late. Like, it's too late for another heroic type figure to emerge to fill that void. This is not season one where Ned Stark was a mystery. I just want to throw something out there. So we're talking about characters that have flitted in and out of the story. And we're talking about it being maybe too late for someone to rise, a hero to rise.

We're brand at. No. Brand's under the tree, homie. I know. But I'm saying flitting in and out. I think it's a great point because like realist talk because we've been holding back on the show up till now. I didn't miss him. Like as a fan of the show and not of the books.

people filled the vacuum. Well, last year, I watched season five, and there was never a point where I was like, I wish, I wish Brand or his talking tree were here. Like, I didn't, I never missed it. So I think you guys, and you could speak to this, as book readers are much more invested in Brand's storyline. But I think it's going to be interesting to see how he is integrated back into the show in season six in a way that feels commiserate to his apparent importance.

Dyerwolves? Right. Warging. Yeah. Wherewoods? The Three-Eyed Raven. Is this like Karnak? Is this like the Johnny Carson thing

where you say the five things and I come up with a funny question? Listing, show me where would. Listing all of the magical, mystical elements that Brand is directly associated with and that other characters are not. He is the direct connection to the core fantasy elements of this story.

Which is interesting because I wonder and we'll see how much the core viewing audit, not the core, the casual but intense viewing audience is keyed into the core fantasy elements because rewatching some of season five, as we all did, going into, you know, to prepare for the season, I was really, really struck by the moments in which ordinary characters are confronted with the extraordinary.

We were talking today about 509 and episode 509, and that was the episode where, you know, the giant walks into Castle Black for the first time and everyone sees him and reacts to him. And also, that's the episode, where the dragon, where Drogon swoops in and flies around and Trian looks up at him with wonder on his face. And for me, like, that's how I like to approach the fantasy as a viewer. I like it when it swoops in and takes our breath away, getting into the nitty gritty of it with a POV character from inside of a magic Keebler elf tree.

That's a tougher sell. And obviously they've had time to think about how they're going to do it, but I think it's a tougher sell. So Ian McShane was half right when he said that this show is basically just tits and dragons. it's White Walkers and Dragons. And at the end of the day, all of the human elements, all of the war. I've seen some tits on the show. I just want to be clear.

I didn't accidentally switch to Cinemax, right? Like, that's what I was still. That's why we need Littlefinger. We got to get the brothel action and up and running again. But ultimately, as much as this is a human story, and this is about the good and evil inside of every man,

it's really about dragons frying White Walkers to win the day. That's probably where we've always been headed. is heading. So the mystical elements are always going to be a part of it. The other thing about Brand that I think will endear people to him again, at least I hope, and please stop me if this is too spoilery. I don't think it is. But it sure seems from the trailers and from what we've read and what we already understand about the way the three-eyed even tutelage will work, he is going to be a gateway into some flashbacks, into some history, into learning more about the world and the

backstories. Do you think it'll be like in the, because didn't Danny have a dream where we kind of learned a little bit about some of like the, am I right about that? She had a, well, she had two visions. When she was like stuck in that house, like stuck in the House of the Undying. Yeah, how's the undying? Didn't she have like a vision back then?

She had a vision of winter. And she saw Caldrogo and her unborn child. But what was the vision of winter that she had? She just walked through the throne room in King's Landing and it was covered in snow. Interesting. Yeah. Winter is coming. Yeah.

So she actually got a glimpse of it. having arrived. Yes. Interesting. So she got to see what viewers, frustrated viewers have been waiting for for five or six years. Yes. She got to see.

And 20 years even if you want to go back to the book. It's interesting when you talk about the history. Like, again, like this is the season where I'm really starting to appreciate this, all the questions of scale where, you know, we start as a very human story and then all of the little, basically interpersonal politics of the first few seasons are slowly, slowly being swamped by these existential threats. So, oh, you thought this mattered?

No, no. The army of dead people marching on you is what matters, and you can't pay attention to that. Or you haven't been able to pay attention to that when you need to. You can't get your mind out of your own daily problems. Similarly, history plays a similar role in this world, right? They cannot escape legacy.

They cannot escape what happened before. And those who ignore it are, what's the phrase? Doom to do something. Doom of Valerian to... Dune to hit repeat on their disc band. Yeah. Oh, I remember that. Yeah.

So that's an interesting idea because I didn't... The one time the show did do a flashback thus far was Circe at the beginning of season five. I don't completely... Like, I get that. I see why that was there. It didn't feel totally essential to me.

Well, I think it's like... That was about the power of prophecy, which I think lingers over this show in a way. that's like the other part of the magic bit. Like when you're saying like, oh, you know, some people watch this show because it's basically like this political intrigue or military or like sex and violence show. But there's a lot of stuff in there that's, you know, biblical, allegorical,

like there will be the, what's the Lord of Light? The Prince that was promised. The Prince that was promised, right. And that they're, that Sersey, that these people kind of understand their relationship to destiny. And that even Jamie, when he's like leaving, when he's leaving, leaving Doran with Marcella and he's just like, nobody can tell you who to love. Sometimes it just happens and like the world's a crazy place and they have that one special

moment before she dies. It seems like over and over again in this show, people were confronted like right up against the point where they can break away from destiny and then something comes over and knocks them out. Or maybe they can. I think that's something that a lot of people like about the show. When we were talking about season five earlier today, Mallory, you referenced the scene when Melisandra took Gendry's blood.

in the leeches and then burned them on her big green egg barbecue and was just like, you know, and two of the three people she named, so she named Joffrey, she named Rob Stark, and she named Baylon Greyjoy. Two of those three people are now X'd out. They're now dead. But as we were saying, that's a good batting average, but it also could be completely random. And I really love the fact that, you know, they are trying to run the numbers, trying to see what happened, but You don't know whether they are having blind faith and seeing what they want to see or not. The thing is, that doubt is probably going to have to get confirmed one way or another. I mean, this is what happens to all TV shows where they can be nothing but questions,

and then at the end you have to start steering towards the story you want to tell and the truths you want to reveal as truth. Can they keep skating that line with Melisandra is incredible and powerful and charismatic, or is she a fraud? And some of the real subtlety and brilliance of the show, what, lies in the way? lies in the fact that she can be both. It's like Jamie can be Prince Valiant and be an incestuous murderer. Right.

Tell me more about what you guys are looking forward to this season. I am looking forward to John Snow living again. Yeah. After, you know, this entire winter of denials, I think, you know, it's got to happen. Just one hundred. There's no doubt. You just have no doubt. I mean, they've been so adamant that, you know,

I have tried to square how it could be true with what I feel has to happen. But let's also talk about a pretty unprecedented thing just in terms of fandom. No one's mad. You know what I mean? Like The Walking Dead just had a couple things this year where they played coy about whether a character was alive or not and the actor was coy and the whole thing. And then the character was not dead. And people were pissed.

They were like, you were toying with us. When we were talking earlier about the different delivery platforms, I think that this is still why this show needs to be on once a week. Do you know what I mean? Like, this show needs to be on once a week at this time of year. Yeah. And people need to, like, is that, because Walking Dead part of the problem is that they have those breaks. And it goes away for months?

Yeah, yeah. But isn't it interesting, though, that people are so fine with it. And I think that actually, you know, I think HBO played this well. And we talked about this at the time when the first image released from the season was just of John Snow. That's perfect. Because they were like, this is a story that we want resolution to. And we're mostly, I do think people at this point are excited not to find out whether he's alive or dead because he's dead. but he's going to be alive again.

We all agree. We just don't know how. And a how story is a much better story. Can I put you on the spot, Mel? Please do. Can you present me with any kind of scenario of what he's dead? No, I can't think of a single one.

And you have thought about this. Yeah, it's partially admittedly because I don't want to think of a single one. Like, I don't want to live in a world without John, you know. But I just, I think that every scenario that I've envisioned for the end game, involves John in a meaningful way. And every bit of core

theorizing and backstory and all this talk about his parentage and some of the flashbacks that we know we're going to see that I think probably relate and reveal something about his parentage. I just don't understand why we'd be investing time in that stuff if it wasn't going to matter. Yeah, let's think about

just using the evidence of the show itself when we were talking about season five as it was happening, I think Chris, neither of us loved the scene with the sand snakes and brawn and the poison because it just seemed it would seem a little bit straight. Yeah, but now when I rewatched it and they play red hands I was like, that's amazing.

You totally get that now. But now that we know what happened in the season finale with the sand snakes and poison. Jason kicked my ass in red hands today by the way. I didn't know if you were going to admit that. Yeah, it was like I felt like he was like Neo in the Matrix. I was, I'm concerned for your, like your ability

to move your limbs. Like my cognitive ability? I'm concerned for your ability to show your face around the office here after what he did to you. But you know what I mean though? Like that, that poison, they don't have enough real estate to waste time on things. And the show has always been that way,

even though we're conditioned to watch TV. We're conditioned to expect TV to be a little bit flabier and have some things that don't go anywhere, or maybe dead ends. This show can't afford to do that. They just don't have the time or real estate and it costs too much money. So anything that happens has something to say

about where we're going. I think the larger point in terms of what we're looking for is just for the pieces to really start to move into the end-game stage. How's Danny going to get back? how is John going to stop the White Walkers? Does Danny have a bunch of Dothraki riding with her when she does? Yeah. Is Cersi going to, how bad is she going to make things in Kings Landing?

Right. All that kind of stuff has got to start to snap into place now, and that's what I'm really looking forward to. I'm really excited about two of the people who are physically proximate to John right now, Davos and Melis Andra. Yeah. I really like the idea of two people who have been diametrically opposed throughout their entire time on the show, presumably needing to come together.

But he doesn't know what happens. That's the extra element that makes it so exciting. He's like, where's the princess and she hits him with the Jim Halpert face? Like, what? Right. So Melisandra fled. She left Stannis, right? And is presumably questioning her own faith in everything that she's believed in for her

entire life. And now, presumably Davos, her sworn rival, is going to have to be the one to give her like a little pep talk and get her going again. And give her a new purpose, yeah. And give her a purpose. And they will be allies until he finds out what she did to Shereen because that's got to be the one thing that he can't forget. Because that's like the one piece of good in the world that he enjoyed.

What is there a central thing that you're looking forward to this season that you want to, you can't wait to see? I can't wait to see how the after show does, honestly. I've got a good feeling about it. I feel like it's really going to elevate the discourse around the show. Really kind of help. Really help sort of set. When you see Nolan and Hardwick together, you're just like, sparks.

Can we just remake it happen one night right now? I feel like Game of Thrones really deserves a central place and cultural discussion, and I really think it's been lacking up to this point. So I really think an after show is what's going to elevate it to the next level. No, I mean, I'm excited because there's a feeling that surrounds the season of possibility. Yep. Because going into every season, obviously this is, I'm saying this as a TV show watcher and not a book reader, but it's something that, you know, you feel the same way as.

There was a feeling before that we were on a roller coaster that was a very popular roller coaster, and people were like, you won't believe the second loop. Oh, just wait, just wait. Which is not a bad ride to be on. It's nice to know you're heading in a fun direction and people are psyched about it. But there's a sense of anarchy that is always exciting about TV, and this show is finally ready to embrace, even though, obviously, you know, caveat there are some stories that have yet to be told from the books and some things, you know, Jason is fairly convinced that he knows exactly everything that's going to happen.

in season six, just from sort of looking at the tea leaves. But there's a sense of excitement for all of the show's fans this year. I think it's kind of, it's a little bit intoxicating. It's fun. I'm excited for Theon. Word? Yeah. Because I was thinking about how I actually enjoyed his character really early in the show.

Like I kind of like the hybrid protagonist, antagonist thing he had going and, you know, the never wanted son from two families. Yeah. just, but also very like sort of charming rascal. I don't know. I'd love to see him get a little bit of his, albeit lighter, swagger back. Yeah, and we've trudged through the mire with that dude. All right.

So every Monday, you'll be able to find us on a variety of platforms after the Thrones. We're going to have Jason Mallory involved as much as humanly possible. I can't wait to be doing this with you. It's exciting so far. Guys, thank you so much for listening and checking out all the stuff we've done. done about Thrones so far we really like it's always so gratifying to hear from people about how much they enjoy this stuff and even how much they don't enjoy it and we can't we can't wait to see you guys on April 25th stick around because I

had a really nice chat with Richard Linklater director of Dasing Confused and Slacker and the new everybody wants some if you haven't gotten a chance to see that movie yet go check it out is the polar opposite to Game of Thrones but I still enjoy it today's sponsor is also Casper Mattresses obsessively engineered American-made mattresses at a shockingly fair price and now You can get $50 towards any mattress purchase by going to casper.com slash BSPN and use promo code BSPN. Listen, you spend about a third of your life sleeping. Let's make sure you're doing it on a good mattress.

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Are you still like bastions in Austin? Yeah, yeah. That's home. Do you feel like the town has changed a lot? over the years. I mean, it is like an incredible hangout town. And one of the things that obviously I feel everybody wants them has it, but even, and you know, dazed in the before movies have, but, you know, you can even find this vibe in school of rock or scan or darkly is like this incredible feeling of like characters just being allowed to hang out. And I was curious,

this is sort of a two-part question, but I was curious whether or not you felt like that was at all a distinct quality that comes from growing up where you grew up and having the sort of formative years that you did, where you did. And then if you could also talk a little bit about how you set up an environment on a set to allow characters to sort of interact in this incredibly naturalistic way. Yeah, I've always had that feeling about hanging out because I wasn't really much of a hangar outer. I was always reading or writing or I was pretty industrious in my own way.

I'm talking about once I'd really committed to film in my life. but when I was in those situations I always kind of was noting it I was like oh this is interesting this could be cinema you know people talking and I just it was an important environment for me

for some for some reason or another I just love that environment in my film you could almost call like my body of work like hanging out there's a name of a book of my be hanging out

that'll be the coffee table book yeah but as we know hanging out can be pretty boring. If you just videotape you and your friends hanging out, it's incredibly boring. So it really rips pacing. It requires structure. It requires a lot of energy and humor. And let's say the outline of hanging out. There's actually a lot going on. And I've felt that from day one, you know, the slacker. It's a hanging out movie, but there's kind of more ideas and activity per capita than most movies have.

So it's always been crammed full of a lot of other stuff. So I kind of think of it like they can work cinematically. You just have to have it. It has to be completely believable and completely not boring in itself. The surface can look boring, but the content can't really be boring. So I don't ever want anyone to be bored. I'm trying to entertain and provoke and, you know, inspire. I'm trying to listen and try to communicate.

So I think that, but that vibe comes out of a naturalistic. approach to the acting, which to me can only be achieved by kind of intensive rehearse movie, everybody wants weeks together, play environment where we're playing, you know, guys who play ball, we'd watch movies, always working and kind of always playing. It was the best atmosphere, because that's really what the movie wants to be. But they need to establish their own relations and bonds and quirks. And, you know, I'm trying to make my film real on moving, around Lottie and someone, some quirk of their personality or their own comic inclinations, try to match that with these abstract words on a page that I have for all these years.

You know, it's like, well, what's going to make a good movie? Yeah. What do you, I mean, my favorite scene, and I know that lots of people have said this, but my favorite scene and everybody wants them is the practice sequence. Oh, cool. And it's cool how the practice replaces the part of the movie where the big game is supposed to be. You know, like you're like, you're building up to it. And it's, it's awesome how, you know, the scene between McReynolds and Niles, it's like, you know, that's almost the big showdown.

Do you fondly remember, because I remember practice when I used to play ball, like just being this incredible mixture of relaxation and then bursts of competitive intensity. And it was almost like more fun than the games. Like, do you have really fond memories for practice, you know, when you were growing up? Like, that was almost like the best part kind of, right? Yeah. I just love being on a baseball field from age, you know, whatever, 10 to 20. There's no place in the world I'd rather be. And, yeah, practice, because the stakes are low, but if you love the game,

you're absolutely trying to maximize everything. If it's batting practice, I'm trying to hit every ball out of the park. You know, infield, I'm going to, you know, you just work hard, base running. I just, I never remembered not wanting to be there. I never remember being, you know, to be there. when you're casting something like this, you know, I thought you did some really interesting things. It's like, I don't know if you've read Moneyball,

but you were almost looking for like market inefficiencies with like somebody like Tyler Hatchelon, who's people know from Team Wolf, but you put him in a different sort of, you know, reality or like a different sort of story here. Can you talk a little bit about assembling the cast, but also like the sort of pressures around making a movie like this in 2000? I guess you was 14 when you shot it,

but in this day and age, yeah. I just want the best player. I want the best cast that's believable as athletes. And then I'll figure out what part. You know, I think I had six of them pretty much. I was casting, feeling my way to who they're going to play. But really, I was looking on who's not the same as everybody else. How are these guys going to stand out?

The worst scenario would be you'd walk out of the movie and go, you know, they all kind of seem the same. Yeah. Or I like that one guy, but the rest all seemed too similar. You know, because a lot of these parts, they only have like four or five lines in the script for some of the smaller parts. So new things for them and to really define their personalities. You know, a lot of films, I feel like there's a few roles that are real people. And then there's everybody else.

And they just feel the functionary human role. Like, hey, you're going to be here and your job is just to be the roommate or the, you know, and I always thought like, well, that's not good. you know, I want to feel like you really, these are all very believable people inhabiting a real space. So to me it comes out of all that. It's very important to get the right people, but, you know, let's say I think two of the most important parts cast in here. Yeah. And I chalk this up to my own experience. The two guys who are sort of for different reasons kind of on the out, there's somewhat ostracized buter, the freshman,

and then the transfer in Niles, they're kind of already... Yeah. For different reasons. You know, Buter probably didn't go drinking with him. The first day, he was on the phone to his girlfriend, so he's kind of other. And then Niles is just too jacked up competitively, too much to prove. And so casting those parts, I think the younger version of me 20 years ago or whatever, I'm out, I said, well, I get a guy's a little odd.

You know, that would be maybe good because he's playing an odd guy. But the thing there, if you really get someone who doesn't fit in with the group, then you actually, in real life, you get this ostracism or people have to put them in a category. And that might work on one level, but I knew for the way I worked, it wouldn't work because we were all going to be living together. So I cast, in both those cases, I went to Justin Street, who had played college ball and a little bit of pro ball. I was like, hey, you know, I've got this one crazy part. I want you to read this. And he's like, oh, yeah, I know that guy.

Every team has one guy like that. I said, well, I said, you're not this guy, but I want you to. If you'll come in and do character work and you're not that guy, if you're actually a cool guy, everybody likes, and yet you're doing this kind of everybody and it'll keep the team dynamic. And I said the same to Will Britton as Buter. In another world, he probably could have played Jake. Yeah. He's kind of a leading guy.

But I was like, you know, I think there's a really fun part as the roommate who, you know, he's a little out of step. And he went with that, you know. I was just happy he wanted to be in the movie, you know. And these guys have the respect, major respect from the rest of the ensemble is serious. Set a tone. Everybody had to do that to whatever degree. But, you know what I'm saying? So another era I might have actually got the weird guy to play the weird guy.

But here I was like, no, they're all actors. And that kept morale up. I didn't have, in other movies I've done, sometimes little factions form and so-and-so doesn't like so-and-so. And, you know, we didn't have that here. I think they just had to be a team. They had to get along, and they did. It meant enough to all of them to part at that. Do those factions, does that kind of unrest, like, tend to be, does that tend to be somehow related

to the way in which the film is either financed or made or whether it's like a big studio project? Or is it more just like you never know and you show up and somehow some people don't like each other? Yeah, that's just human, you know, interaction. I remember on days that happened, but I was going, oh, that's so high school, you know? Little factions, the girls were like, oh, we don't like her. You know, just a little bits of that were kind of constant.

But in a way, I was less experienced, but I was kind of like, well, I didn't mind. It seemed to fit the atmosphere of that particular film. But I didn't really want that here. It wouldn't have worked. So I was more careful. You've become a disciplinarian in your old age. Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. I was like, in a long time ago, I probably would have stuck with certain people who were here.

At this point, I don't have problem replacing actors. if I don't think they're fitting in, I'll, you know, I'll do the tough work and, you know, do the unpleasant business of replacing someone who I don't think, because you end up spending so much more time on one part that you've miscast than everybody else put together. So you don't want to, you know, you just don't have to do that. So, you know, admit a mistake. That's happened to me so rarely, you know, but when it happens, you have to, you know, try to make it, you know, just like a coach.

You've got to make the tough call for the betterment of the team, in this case, the final movie. But I don't think I answered your question completely about the long road this took to get made. It's just a difficult film to get financed in today's film world, you know, a period ensemble with no big stars, you know. I mean, over the years, it was like, yeah, it was, you know, will Matthew play the coach? I'm like, well, now, why would Wooderson suddenly be a baseball coach? Right. That makes no sense that he would be a college, but he wasn't a college player. You know, it's just like, oh, it'll be a, I just kind of don't like.

Right. They just, I'm trying to create a reality that doesn't, that pulls you in, not pulls you out, you know. And so that works in a lot of movies, it works fine because that's kind of, it's fine. It works quite often. But not for, was kind of orphaned for a while. It's just a film, like everyone sort of like the script. it was funny, and I think they got it. But it was just not the kind of film studios are looking to do these days.

You know, when I first started making movies in the 90s, like I got dazed and confused, was a studio-financed movie. They gave me $6.5 million and said, yeah, you know, it was kind of like, oh, we don't really, we can't really lose much money on that. Right. You know, it's just low-budget enough. And studios can't afford to think small like that anymore. They can only think big.

Movies cost so much. It costs so much to market. And they just don't have the energy to make a lot of them. So it's kind of a miracle this film got made at all, actually. So what's the move then? Do you start thinking about TV then? Like just in the fact that TV is, you have to put quotes around that now because it's hardly a TV that we grew up with anymore. It's everything from experimental 22-minute sitcoms to long-form storytelling.

I mean, is there an interest in that? Yeah, I have a few projects that. fit nicely into long form. I kind of see them as long movies, the five or ten hour movie. Yeah. I haven't wrapped my head around a multi-year series yet, but I do have some that would work for the longer form

that I think cable or, you know, Netflix or whatever kind of offers as a storytelling medium. But by and large, I'm still kind of loved the feature film format, you know. Like for the last like seven years, it feels like every film I've tried to do, the first question at everybody's mouth is like, well, would this make a TV series? Yeah, of course.

And it's like, well, I know that's where the money is, and that makes sense. But I kind of like, I don't want to be locked in on a thing for years and years and years. I want to tell this story the way I know how and move on to a whole. And I do have a few ideas out there, but I'm just trying to get my next film made

while the medium's still viable, you know. So is that next one, where'd you go, Bernadette, or are you working on something else? That's definitely in the pipeline. It's been kind of put on hold for cast availability. So we're trying to squeeze in another film or two before that gets going. So I have some, you know, I have on the burners, I think about nine or ten projects that I've developed or written over the years. Some are fairly low budget.

So I think I can get lower budget things made. We'll see. I'm always kind of pushing the boundaries of what, you know, always feels like there's some limitation. You know, oh, the foreign value, every time I have a project, it's... You know, you said in a recent interview that the time when this film is set was the time that, like, the last time you sort of felt aligned with what was popular. And I really liked that these guys seem to be guys who listen to the radio. I mean, even though they're still also listening to, like, early Floyd and stuff like that. They're also doing rappers to light in the car.

I was wondering, though, do you feel that way about the movies, too? Like, it's not in the business sense, but almost this thing. Like, do you still enjoy going to the movies? Like, and is there stuff out there that you find particularly motivating or challenging or compelling? Yeah. Every year, there's 10 to 20 films that just totally remind you like, okay, right, you know. Yeah. Yeah, there's at least that many more.

I don't pretend to even have the time or in a different place in my life where I don't see every movie anymore. And then the history of cinema, too. you know, hundreds and hundreds of movies a year. I just kind of nod at that phase. Yeah, what I feel like the mainstream culture, I separate the film culture from mainstream culture. You know, when I talk about, you know, being tapped into, you know,

just something about being young at that moment, kind of feeling like what was the most popular was also kind of the best, even though my taste was starting to already creep to the underground and the weird and different. But it was, yeah, that's just that that stage of life maybe yeah that's cool that's reflected in the movie as well i mean like you can feel yeah those guys starting to become aware and you're kind of open for all comers

yeah yeah you're not that judgmental you're not like oh that's like you're kind of like i got my favorites but if if that's where the drink specials are and that's where the girls are well i'll put on that shirt and go dance a blow of an evening and trying to fit in that's kind of one of the metaphors of the movie you know identity and self you know sure um you know that's well thanks so much for talking to me today. Everybody wants something in theaters now. We can't wait to see what you do next. But thanks very much for your time. All right. Yeah, well, great talking to you.

Yeah, take care, man. Okay, you too. Bye-bye. Thanks to our sponsor, bux.com. This Mother's Day, send mom the best flowers of her life from bookes.com. Bookes flowers grow on the side of a volcano. Seriously, a volcano. Blooms are larger, the colors are more vibrant. It's 10,000 feet or something like that.

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